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Get A Prenup
Recent surveys show that about one third (usually around 36%, depending on the survey) of unmarried people say they would ask a significant other to sign a prenup. Yet only 3% actually do it. That tells me something I've already known for many years now: People know in the backs of their minds that TMM (traditional monogamous marriage) doesn't work any more, but when it's actually their time at bat they're pussing out. They know what they should do, but they don't have the balls to man-up (or woman-up) and do what's right.
-By Caleb Jones
I really don't know why I need to write about this. I really don't. But apparently I have to.
Only 3% of married or engaged couples have a prenuptial agreement. THREE PERCENT. This is hailed as an "improvement", since it was 1% back in 2003.
Let me remind you that the real divorce rate is around 63% in most American and European cities.
Gentlemen, this is god damn insane. INSANE!
Statistically speaking, this includes YOU if you're not currently married. You know if you ever get married you need to get your ass a prenup. But when push comes to shove, when your oneitis girlfriend who is Not Like The Rest™ is stamping her foot like a little drill sargeant saying that Prenups Are Unromantic™, when her eyes start to water as she says you clearly Don't Value This Relationship™, you're going to finally crumble like a little bitch and give in.
I would like to just tell you to not ever get married, but you're going to ignore that advice. Likely, the false societal programming in your brain and obsolete biology in your body is just too powerful even if you logically know getting traditionally married is a terrible idea. Therefore this post is my effort, likely a futile one, to assist you in staying the course when the massive wave of societal programming comes crashing down on your head telling you to not get a prenup.
"I don't need a prenup. I don't have any money." Correction. You don't have any money NOW. Do you plan on having some money in 20 years? Oh, you do? So you you don't get a prenup now because you have no money, then work your ass off for 20 years, finally scrape some money together so you can retire, then get divorced and lose (at least) half of it, destroying your financial life and forcing you to work another 20 years past what you were planning. Was that a good move?
I work with men who did exactly this. They got married in their 20's, didn't get a prenup because they "didn't have any money", busted their asses for decades, got divorced in their late 40s or 50s, and now, they're FUCKED. I'll never forget a work friend of mine, a guy age 53, who was planning on retiring at age 56. He started to get tears in his eyes in his office one day as he told me that because he got a divorce (his wife left him because she "wasn't in love any more"), he now had to work another 16 years before he could think about retiring.
You do not want to be that guy. It's not relevant how much money you don't have NOW. Prenups protect the future results hard work as well as your past and current hard work. Regardless of how much money you have or earn right now, get a fucking prenup. "If I ask her to sign a prenup, she might get mad and leave me!"
One word: GOOD.
Do you want to marry a woman who will not be with you unless you guarantee her half of all your current and future money if she chooses to break up with you down the road for whatever reason she wants?
Try, TRY to clear through the clouds of your NRE and oneitis and guy-Disney and really think about that. "Prenups are mean to women. Women need financial assistance raising kids after a divorce."
Women from prenuped divorces still receive child support. Even if you get a prenup you are still required to pay child support post-divorce to the mother of any children you create. And rightly so. Child support is a valid function. Prenups have nothing whatsoever to do with child support. This is a completely bullshit excuse, usually used by women.
First, read what I just said about child support. If the two of you have kids, she won't get "nothing".
Second, a common misconception is that if a woman signs a prenup, she is guaranteed to receive NOTHING if she gets divorced. False. Ivana Trump got over $25 million from Donald Trump and they had a prenup. The prenup states what a woman will receive in addition to what she will not receive.
If you ask her to sign a prenup, and she responds by saying she won't because she doesn't want "nothing", then fine. If you really do have some money, negotiate with her, ask her what's fair for her to financially receive if a divorce occurs, come up with a number together, and put it in the prenup. If you can't come to an agreement, don't get married. Remember, prenups are 100% customizable and can say whatever you want them to say.
"Prenups don't mean much. They can be contested in court."
If you live in a country like England or Australia, I'm sad to say you're right. Prenups don't really mean much in those countries if the woman takes the trouble to challenge them in court. Guess what that means? If you live in a country like that, DON'T EVER GET LEGALLY MARRIED. Or if you're just dying to get married, move to the United States or a similar country where prenups actually mean something.
Prenups actually do have power here in the US. Very few American prenups are ever taken to court, and very few of those are ever successfully contested in any way, and even the ones that are usually involve ultra-rich people, and neither you nor me are in that category.
Prenups in the United States are quite solid and quite safe.
"Signing a prenup means you're intending on getting a divorce down the road! That's mean! What's the point of getting married then???"
Do you have a spare tire in your car? Ah, then you must be intending on your tire to blow out while you're driving on the freeway. Do you have life insurance? Ah, you must be intending on dying soon. That's nice. Do you wear your seat belt when you drive? Ah yes, you must be intending on crashing your car into a brick wall. That's awesome. Do you lock your doors at night? Wow...you're intending on having a serial killer enter your house to murder you and rape your dog.
Yeah, it's a much better idea to keep your doors completely unlocked at night. You'll be much safer that way because you won't be intending on anything going wrong.
Bottom Line -
I don't care if you love her. I don't care if you've fucked 27 women and she's Not Like The Rest™. I don't care if she threatens to leave you. I don't care if your mom is calling you insensitive. I don't care if her girlfriends are saying bad things about on you on Facebook... GET A PRENUP, OR DON'T GET MARRIED.
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N 2011-12-11 17:32:53
> “Prenups don’t mean much. They can be contested in court.” > If you live in a country like England or Australia, I’m sad to say you’re right. Prenups don’t > really mean much in those countries if the woman takes the trouble to challenge them in court... UK qualified attorney here. In England, make it a postnup. Those are enforceable. Draw it up and agree to the terms all in advance of getting married. The day after the wedding, sign it together with all the other paperwork. If she does not, divorce her there and then. That should have the same effect; I've done this for friends who got married. Postnups are just like prenups, you just need to change some of the language - "the parties did marry on [date]" as opposed to "the parties plan to marry on [date]", etc. Also - the psychological value of a prenup/postnup is not to be underestimated. The simple fact that you have that piece of paper, however badly drafted, and however uneforceable it may be in your country, it WILL affect your EFA in the relationship and she'll just find divorce that much less of an attractive idea.
Blackdragon 2011-12-11 19:10:59
Fantastic advice. I hope all of you guys in England are paying attention to what N just said. I've actually done a little research into postnups in the US. It looks like they're not quite as enforceable as prenups here but they're still better than nothing. The challenge is getting the woman you've been married to for years and years to agree to getting a POSTnup. Whenever men try it, they're told by their wives to go fuck themselves. So N's advice about getting the postnup right after you get married is on the money...and divorce her on the spot if she suddenly "changes her mind".
N 2011-12-11 22:30:40
Yes, though still beware. The ban on prenups in England is based on public policy - the notion that a prenup would weaken the institution of marriage. (ugh) One could argue that a postnup executed right after the wedding is a prenup in disguise and as such unenforceable and that the husband is using the letter of the law to defy the spirit of the law as postnups are supposed to be agreed on in contemplation of separation only. A wily divorce lawyer could make that case in court (I know I would). Still, far better than nothing at all.
Steven 2011-12-11 23:59:06
BD, what about living with a girl long enough to be considered common law, but not getting married? Do you still advise some sort of contract for that situation too? P.S. "Rape your dog?" There sure are some sick fucks in your neck of the woods. LMAO
Alejandro 2011-12-12 04:33:34
I was just about to make the same comment. In my country, a person who has lived with another person for five years is considered a common law spouse. Just 3 years ago the number was 2 years. 2 YEARS!!! That means your live in girlfriend could break up with you and get half your money after only 2 years of living in together Only a few states in the United States recognize common-law marriages, but in other countries it is pretty common. In those specific cases I would say getting married with a prenup is a better option than just living together and risking a non-prenuped common law marriage.
Blackdragon 2011-12-12 11:41:57
Common law marriage is complicated because every state / country has a different set of laws dealing with it. Your best technique is this: BEFORE you move in with a woman, cough up $50 to $100, sit down with a family attorney, and ask all the questions you can ask about common law marriage in your country or state. If you are able to write up a document she signs that protects you just like like a prenup in the case of a separation, do it. If she refuses to sign it, don't move in with her. If a "common law marriage prenup" is unavailable to you, then either refrain from moving in with her or move in with her but make sure you MOVE OUT a few months before the deadline where it becomes common law. Then don't live with her for at least six months (but keep the relationship going if you wish...it's a great time to demonstrate your Outcome Independence and boost her attraction levels for you). Then move back in with her if you still want to, and repeat the process. Yes, it's a lot of hassle. It's still far better than getting your life destroyed when you least expect it if/when she wakes up one morning and has magically decided she doesn't want to be with you any more. (Which is exactly what women are biologically wired to do.)
N 2011-12-12 21:25:04
Disclaimer time. *Noting stated on this website by this author constitutes legal advice. You should not rely on this information in making any decisions regarding your legal relationships. I am not responsible for any activity by you arising from the provision of this information. You are strongly urged to seek legal advice in your own jurisdiction.* Now, about common law marriage. The common law of England does not recognize the common law marriage. In other words, if you live in the UK, you can cohabitate for as long as you like, and you will not be deemed married. Other knotty issues concerning the leasehold or the mortgage may arise, depending on who pays, uses and improves the location. But you won't be married. Elsewhere, BD is right, ask an attorney (and cough up more than 50 bucks, for fuck's sake.) Generally speaking (*very* generally) having some agreement in writing, even if unenforceable, is better than not having an agreement. It can still be admitted as evidence concerning intentions, both yours and hers, and clarify a timeline for example. To be safe though, do what BD says and kick her out at least six months before the deadline is up.
Blackdragon 2011-12-12 23:57:48
Regarding the mortgage/lease issue, that goes back to what I said about no co-owning a house (or anything!) with a woman. My limited legal understanding is that if you live with a woman, married or not, and you own a home: 1. Have the mortgage (or lease) and the property in HER name or YOUR name, not both your names. 2. If the mortgage is in your name, YOU pay the house payment every month out of a checking account that only has YOUR name on it, not BOTH your names. If you just follow my basic advice of keeping all finances separate, you'll be covered here. Don't fall into the trap about how it's "easier" to pay bills out of a joint checking account. Men have lost their houses in divorces because of this little detail.
N 2011-12-13 00:53:11
Again, this is a local jurisdiction issue. Check with your local lawyers. Even if you have everything in your name, if she makes repairs and improvements to the house, and/or household payments, a court in the UK may award her with a part ownership in the home : /
RK Hendrick 2011-12-14 11:46:06
The marriage rate in the US has been dropping dramatically! I am not the biggest fan of this site, however, check the latest article on this topic in the Huffington Post. Here's the link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/14/marriage-rates-in-america_n_1147290.html This dramatic drop in the US marriage rate is not surprising at all. In view of what the family law courts are dong to men in the US, there is no logical reason for a man to get married in this day an age. For his personal well being, financial and legal safety, it's better for a man to live with a woman and have a Cohabitation Agreement. There is an excellent 21st century rule book written exclusively for men entitled: "How To Avoid Getting Screwed When Getting Laid" that covers dating to divorce. You can down-load the first chapter for free, if you use this link: http://www.protectionformen.com/blog Then click on the free load button. If you enjoy discussing Men's and Fathers' Rights and Issues, take a look at the facebook group: "Friends of Protection for Men" It’s has become the largest and most active Men’s / Fathers Rights & Issues Discussion Group on facebook with an international membership of some very influential, nationally known and brilliant members. Here’s the facebook link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/protectionformen/
Blackdragon 2011-12-14 11:50:30
A little spammy there dude, but I'll leave it. Yes the marriage rate has gone down. I consider this a good thing. The next thing people need to learn his how to have and raise children without a legal marriage. That one they haven't figured out yet and that's what people need to be educated on.
RK Hendrick 2011-12-14 12:15:52
I just posted the link for the above article in the facebook group, “Friends of Protection for Men” as well as on my 3 pages in facebook. I really like the article! One never knows, but the potential number of others who will see the article is little over 9,000 people. Keep up the good work! I am now a subscriber. As I see more good articles, I will keep re-posting the links in the group as well as on my facebook pages. (I am the creator / moderator of the group.) As for your closing comment, the way it should be done is via living together and using a Cohabitation Agreement. I handled over 3,000 divorce, custody, child support cases in my legal career. Cohabitation Agreements are the best / safest way to go. Send me a mailing address, and I arrange to have a courtesy copy of the book sent to you.
fountainfit28 2011-12-17 11:29:21
And as if it couldn't get any better...Kobe's getting divorced and...you guessed it...no prenup. Way to go idiot.
Blackdragon 2011-12-17 13:39:44
Don't get me started on Kobe. He's always been the biggest pussywhipped beta on the planet. Not surprised at all he had no prenup.
John 2011-12-20 20:26:50
Actually, I would love to read a blog from you about Kobe's divorce as the details emerge. The beta bought her a $4 million dollar ring after getting caught doing what is natural http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,626534,00.html
Blackdragon 2011-12-20 21:02:39
You read my mind. I just wrote the post today. I'll be posting it tomorrow.
Bobby 2012-01-19 02:57:01
I've been living with my fiance' for nearly two years. We are planning on getting married in the near future, but haven't set a date. I presented her a lawyer prepared pre-nup a week ago (I'm looking at it on the desk - she hasn't touched it). I've read that you can't coerce a partner into signing a pre-nup. I'm just wondering how long I should wait and how I should remind her that she needs to look at it without being "coercive."
Blackdragon 2012-01-19 09:47:16
Absolutely correct. If she ever challenges the prenpup and it's show she signed close to the wedding, she can claim she was "coerced". The general rule is she signs six months before the wedding minimum. My legal understanding is a year is way better. If it were me, it would be a year. Also, pay $200 or so and have her sign while being witnessed by a judge. That way she can't ever go back to court and state she "didn't understand what she was signing", which is another female tactic. The judge will actually explain every clause to her and watch her sign the document.
Bobby 2012-01-21 06:51:23
Thank you for your comment Black Dragon. You've obviously put more thought into these matters than I have. My dilemma is that I've been living with my fiance' for nearly 22 months and if she delays signing the prenup for a couple of months I'll have been co-habitating for 2 years. I understand after the 2 year point it's like you're married anyway and she can come after my assets based on that. It seems I may be forced to move out if she delays this much longer, which would be extremely difficult on her emotionally and financially, not to mention myself.
Blackdragon 2012-01-21 10:05:14
I'm not an attorney and I'm not qualified to help you with that particular issue, but I don't think that 2 year thing is accurate. Whip out $50 and pay an attorney and ask him. I'm serious. If the attorney confirms that 2 year thing (and I don't think he will), then yes, kick her out right now, especially if she keeps delaying on signing the prenup (what does that tell you?). No, it won't be pleasant, but it will be much more pleasant than a divorce where you lose everything.
Bobby 2012-01-21 19:32:56
I'll ask the attorney who drew up the pre-nup. Thanks for your opinion. I hope you're right about the co-habitation issue which would give me some breathing room.
Nemeroff 2012-03-08 19:38:51
I unconsciously knew everything that you wrote in this post, but was kind of trying not to think about it. Talked it over with my fiancee. She stomped her foot and would not have it. We ended up breaking the engagement 2 months before the wedding. I feel like a total asshole, but, on the other side.. it feels like a huge relief. I have this feeling that I just saved myself from the dumbest decision in my life. I would never marry somebody who thinks that what's mine is automatically hers (and don't you dare refuse it to me), and I would never have actually found out if I didn't have that fateful conversation. I'm on a massively shitty place right now though. And I feel guilty for not feeling more guilty.
Blackdragon 2012-03-08 20:33:18
If a woman is willing to break off an engagement with you for sole reason that you want her to sign a prenup, then I promise you, you dodged a bullet. It's been my experience that many, if not MOST women are cool with the concept of signing a prenup these days. Most women are well aware of the danger men expose themselves to when they get married and have a "Well I would do it too if I were a guy" attitude. That means that in this day and age if you have a woman who actually gets MAD at you for asking her to sign a prenup...guess what you've got on your hands? A time bomb.
lula69 2013-05-31 01:41:12
OK, I've been reading your blog here for the better part of the night and congratulate you for this piece. I've been preaching pre-nups to other fellow men for a year now, and I get those same arguments from the White Knights. You are absolutely right and it's crazy that this stuff isn't being handed out on leaflets in front of the city hall marriage office.
lula69 2013-05-31 02:20:20
Another few comment after reading the comments here. Even in common law marriage or stable union jurisdictions asset separation contracts can be made. They may not be called "pre-nuptial agreement" but otherwise may be the same thing. I made one with my GF in a country that is possibly close to Alejandro's. It was a weird thing because I made this contract with her and at the same time this contract was refuting the existence of a stable union. It is never too early to make some agreement and have it at least notrarized. When you make such agreements, consider all the jurisdictions you are related to now and in the forseeable future. When you move to another state, get informed. Likewise, if you have no pre-nup, check the laws of your state NOW and consider moving if you are in a draconian state. It may be just a short distance. Watch the alimony laws that is the second biggest issue (after the one I am coming to below). Also be aware that in some jurisdictions alimony can not be waived in a pre-nup. Adapt to the jurisdiction you are in and get informed about neighboring and future states and countries of residence. There is a bit of a misconception about "she gets half after only 2 years" -- it's the flip side of "you don't need a pre-nup if you don't have much money (now)." Most jurisdictions exclude pre-marital assets from marital property. So, what you have PRIOR to marriage is actually quite safe even without a pre-nup. The problem is what you make during marriage. This is why the common advice even lawers give "if you are an average joe (now) you don't need a pre-nup" is such utter B/S. The problem is what you build during marriage. And this problem is particularly important if you are self-employed, independently practicing or entrepreneur. This exposes you to a huge risk. Because not only would she take away child support (that's peanuts!) not only half of the liquid (or easily liquidated) assets (that stings but can heal), not only does she walk away with years and years (and years) of guaranteed alimony (fuck you if you suffer economic decline, ex-wives have more right to financial security than married women), no, not only that, but the worst is she would also carry away half of your FUTURE earning POTENTIAL. And that is AFTER the appraisal of the value of your business has eaten up $20k and the fight over it taken out $200k. Valuation of a business can be hugely inflated, such as 5-years of revenue. This can expose yourself to serious financial ruin. And the unsuspecting men can get screwed double and triple. So, what do you do? Executing a mid-nuptial agreement before you start your business might work. So, before you start your business you might say "honey, I contemplate this idea of starting a business, but to do that I need it to be outside of the marital estate". It's shaky but its the best you can do short of the more radical approach that I'm coming to next. Since post-nups after some time of marriage are probably not worth the paper they are written on, but if you only wake up to the problem now, one option is a preventive divorce on paper. Clean the slate, cough up a share to make it acceptable but don't continue to go down the path of no return. This is what I did. It was more messy than that, and I probably coughed up too much to clean my slate. But I am much more relaxed now 1 year after d-day. I won't go into much more detail. But more is possible than you think, and you don't even have to be a real asshole to correct the blunder of the past. If you are not yet there, GET A FUCKING PRENUP.
Evan 2014-08-28 00:05:40
Hi Blackdragon, congratulations for this great contribution to humanity you are doing. My name is Evan, i'm a PUA from Mexico, and it's great the way you explain this part: "Therefore this post is my effort, likely a futile one, to assist you in staying the course when..." It's the same phrase i'm usually use with guys that want their ex back. Out of my seduction blog and work, i'm also a businessman (who also have a blog). I love (and master) this two parts of my life, in addition to the health part, and my hobby: The hidden things. Your blog came to me like a light in the road, and i noticed you and me are very similar when reading some of your posts. In spanish language, no one (who knows the feminine topic as we do) Talks about this, that's the reason i'm here. Some times i want to talk about this topics with other PUAs, but they don't know much about this. Everything was my solitary theories, but seen your blog, now i realize that i'm not alone and that i'm right with a lot of my conclusions. I didn't want to marry, but i was in doubt watching others PUAs like The Angelo do so. But now, i'm more convinced not to do it. I will stay around here feeding my mind with your knowledge, that it's glorious. Talk with you later!
The Only 9 Options for Men as They Age - The Blackdragon Blog 2015-06-12 00:08:53
[…] This is what I’ve always called a TMM. This is when you legally marry a woman, expect and promise lifetime monogamy, and don’t sign a prenuptial agreement. (Please don’t tell me you’ll get a prenup if you choose this option. The stats clearly show that you won’t.) […]
Women’s Greatest Problem: The Myth of the Submissive Alpha Male - The Blackdragon Blog 2015-06-25 05:01:06
[…] to take her out on fancy dinner dates, or doesn’t take out the trash when he’s ordered, or who demands a prenup, or who has sex with other women on the side? Aw, hell no! She’s a Strong Independent Woman™, […]
big Daddy cool 2016-08-17 07:53:11
Statistically speaking, this includes YOU if you’re not currently married. You know if you ever get married you need to get your ass a prenup. But when push comes to shove, when your oneitis girlfriend who is Not Like The Rest™ is stamping her foot like a little drill sargeant saying that Prenups Are Unromantic™, when her eyes start to water as she says you clearly Don’t Value This Relationship™, you’re going to finally crumble like a little bitch and give in.Lol. No woman who really likes a man will ask, let alone insist on, no prenup be arranged. There are some who still don't (at that time) plan to gain from it, but still consider it offensive (how can you doubt me? I'd never do that). They are sincere, and, well, are either very unexperienced or are more mature, but still have a female grey matter unit in their braincase (which voids experience). Some make it a point of pride. There must be no prenup because, you know?, "none of their husbands asked any of my friends a prenup". But again, if things are like they should be, you gently — yet not too gently... — draw her head on to your laps by pulling her hair, say this should be the last time you even hear about a non-prenup marriage (or about a legal marriage of any kind, for that matter), and you won't hear it again.
Danny D 2019-02-21 10:11:06
Problem is that in Germany at least half of all prenups are found invalid in court. You cannot get yourself out of paying her alimony if she has the right to get it by law. You cannot pass law with a prenup. Not getting married is the only way to not getting fucked. And we have a rather liberal system (especially if you are an entrepreneur)