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Subjective Perception And Age
One thing I have learned over many years of dealing with people in a myriad of different life situations is that very often, people's objections to things are purely contextual. That is to say that they object to things purely based on their current (and usually temporary) circumstances rather than on the actual facts and merits of what they're considering.
-By Caleb Jones
It's the same with monogamy. If I tell you monogamy sucks and will ultimately make you unhappy and provide all kinds of facts to back that up, if you currently have a shitty marriage you feel trapped in, or you've recently gone through a bad divorce or breakup, you'll probably agree with me (perhaps reluctantly, but you'll still agree). However if you've just gotten into a brand new monogamous relationship with some new exciting person you're head over heels in love with, you'll likely tell me I'm all wrong and call me an asshole.
My point here is that in all the above cases, even with the people who agree with me, folks are forming their opinions not around the facts, but around the current and temporary context of their present-day situations. It's a very irrational and chaotic way to live, but sadly that's how most human beings are wired. In some areas of life, like politics, this human dynamic is so rampant that virtually nothing helpful ever gets done; everyone's too busy being irrational and pissed off.
I'm human myself, so I always work very hard to make sure that I don't fall into the same trap. I always do my best to form my opinions around facts and how the real world works rather than my current circumstances or current feelings, both of which are subject to change at any time.
This all brings me to the topic of dating women. Since women fall prey to this problem just like men do, you will find that many women out there will make judgement calls about you that actually have nothing whatsoever to do with you. Rather, they are about the women's own current circumstances. Today I'm going to talk about the age of a woman's family members, but this phenomenon can actually apply to all kinds of things in a woman's life.
Younger women and older women both do this, but do this in a different fashion.
Younger Women -
When you're a much older man, VYW (women under the age of 24) will often fall into the Type 1 or Type 2 categories (check the glossary for these terms if you are unfamiliar) purely based on the age of their parents. It's the damndest thing and I've seen this happen many times. If you're 38 and her dad is 39, she's going to be grossed out and she'll be a solid Type 1. But if you're 42 and her dad is 57, the odds are much higher she'll be Type 2 and you'll have a decent shot.
I've even seen this with young women who were best friends or even half sisters. The girl with the normal, older dad has no problem fucking or dating older men, but the girl with the really young dad is horrified by the thought. "It'd be like fucking my dad! Ew!"
My point is the age of her dad is pretty much the only factor that shoves her into Type 1 or 2 status. Funny, isn't it?
If dating sites actually catered to men instead of to women, perhaps they would require women to fill out a new field: "Age of parents". All of us older dudes would know in advance to pass by any of those younger women who had unusually young parents.
Older Women -
This works in the exact reverse with older women, specifically women over the age of 35 or 40. They will be attracted or repulsed by you strictly based on the age of their children. What does the age of a woman's kids have to do with you? As much as a younger woman's father's age, which is to say, nothing. Yet women will still use these factors to judge your sexual worthiness with them. I'll give you a perfect real-life example of this.
Years back when I was going through an older-woman kick, I had a first date with a woman who was 42, and this was when I was, I think, 37. We talked about a few of the other people we had dated, and I mentioned I had dated a 19 year-old. She had no problem with this at all, and even thought it was a little funny. Later we had sex.
The difference between these two women? The first one had 9 year-old son and a 7 year-old daughter. The second woman had a two sons, age 18 and 20. Ah ha! The reason I had freaked out the second woman so suddenly was because I had been dating someone as young as her own son. So just like a 19 year-old with a 38 year-old dad, I had grossed her out. Think I'm jumping to conclusions? This exact same thing happened several times with several women until I caught on to the pattern. (Sometimes I'm slow on the uptake.)
Once again, I was judged based on her personal context, something completely outside of my control and something I personally had nothing to do with. (I also implemented a rule to never talk about much younger women when on a date with an older woman, and I strongly suggest you follow the same guideline if you date a wide range of ages like I do.)
It's all completely irrational, very unfair, doesn't make any logical sense, and frankly it's a little stupid. But it's how people work. (Lest you think I'm picking on women here, men do this too, as many women can attest to.)
Another Observation About This - Women's Height
I wasn't going to talk about this in this particular post, but it's so relevant to the overall point I can't resist. For some odd reason, three out of the last four new VYW I've successfully dated were 5'9" to 5'11". That's right. Three out of four. Weird huh? If I'm on an online dating site messaging women this young, usually the one who messages me back, at least lately, will be the tallest one in the group.
I blew this off as a funny coincidence, but as I was writing this post I paused and looked back through my spreadsheets at all the VYW I've had sex with since getting back into the game six years ago. Sure enough, taller younger women were very strongly represented, far more than the national average (considering the average American woman is 5'5").
Could something as basic and irrelevant as a woman's height also be a deciding factor as to Type 1 or 2 status? Could younger women who are much taller somehow "feel" older? Or more confident? And thus it feels more "okay" to them to date a much older man? Hm.
I honestly don't know, and I'm certainly not saying older men should focus their efforts on taller younger women...but at least in my own experience there's definitely a pattern that would be very hard to explain away by coincidence alone.
Take your own age, your own circumstances, and the type of women you like to date, specifically those in your target market. Then be acutely aware of the various contexts these women are judging you on. It's extremely helpful information, and it could be costing you results if you're unaware of it.
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leo barstad 2013-02-03 14:15:40
Hi, Blackdragon, Just discovered your blog and have been reading the archives. Pretty addictive. I like especially the honesty and common sense approach, as well as the lack of dogmatism in your political observations. I found this post to be particularly perceptive. I spent some time doing political activism (yeah, the guy with the clipboard outside the library) and found after a while I could predict the objections people would have to what I was saying. What I would do then is try to preempt objections by addressing them before the person themselves did. I was wondering if you could do the same sort of thing to keep women from suddenly going cold on you. Like maybe slip in an abbreviated version of this post, something about how people miss out on a lot of opportunities in life by making snap decisions based on certain superficial factors instead of just appreciating a situation for what it is. Then if a girl started to freak out because you are her father's age, you could reference the idea, and bring her back to just enjoying your company. I have no idea how deep these solipsistic sort of judgements go, and whether or not people can be snapped out of them or not. The other thing I wanted to say was that I found the bit about taller girls being less worried about age absolutely fascinating. Maybe because they were always taller, they lived through a bunch of comments about how quick they were growing, and they conflated that in their heads with being more mature or something. It reminded me of the work of social psychologist John Bargh, who used a concept called priming to manipulate the decisions of others. If you haven't already heard of it the basic idea is that what goes on before a decision affects it in weird ways. Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1OVhlRpwJc Basically he would film a bunch of college students coming to one of his experiments, then would give them some some verbal questions where he slipped in a bunch of words related to aging. Then he would film the students leaving and almost all of them walked more slowly, like an older person. Fascinating how these sort of nonverbal, metaphorical factors have an effect, and it may be a similar kind of thing with the tall girls. Thought provoking post. Leo
Raven 2013-02-03 14:22:13
About the height issue, I have this theory that it has to do with the perceived options these women have. Coming from a family of very tall folks, I have three cousins who are above average in both looks and height¹ (the tallest and prettiest one being a 9 who stands around 6'1"). Being curious and aiming to improve my game, I've researched a couple of years ago about how height influences men/women relationships. From what I gathered back then, shorter women are perceived as having the advantage, as women often prefer their man to be taller than they are and the opposite also being true, taller men being perceived as the favored ones and preferring women shorter than themselves. That being the case, the taller the woman, the more accepting she is about certain shortcomings, including the man's height (one of my cousins even got engaged to this friend of mine, who's only 5'5"), and the same applies with shorter men, who don't care so much if the woman is way too tall. So my theory is that these girls you went out with, pretty as they might be, believe that they got the short end of the stick when it comes to dating, and so they are willing to ignore stuff that shorter women would consider a deal breaker. ¹ I live in Brazil, women's average height is 5'3" around here, if I remember correctly
Randian Hero 2013-02-03 16:05:50
How tall are you BD? I usually find myself dating the tallest woman in her friend group. Usually they are also the prettiest ones though. I think I'm in the top percentile of height in my country so the majority of women consider me a freak.
Ken 2013-02-04 09:22:12
I can confirm the "Dad's Age" thing. I get it all the time (I'm 50). Sometimes I also get "Mom's Age". I think you're going to see it even more as you move into your 40s. I've also had younger girls freak on my daughter's age. (12) .. they found my having a daughter more than half of their age to be intimidating. On your "not mentioning younger women to older women" thing .... I had a 33 year old woman that I met up with go off on me because she noticed on my profile girls as young as 18 were listed in the age range block. Lesson learned there ... I bumped up the lower number by ten years in that block. Of course, I still email who I please.
Jon 2013-02-04 09:27:11
It's a little embarrassing, but I can think of two examples from a high school when I used that same kind of "logic." 1) I wouldn't date anyone more than two years younger than me, because my sister was two years younger. The age of consent where I live is 16 (if you're not in a position of authority like a teacher), so it's kind of crazy to think that even though I'm in my 30s, I could conceivably have a relationship with a woman who I wouldn't have dated when I was 18 because I thought she was too young. 2) I wouldn't date anyone who weighed more than I did. This was stupid because I was really skinny, and I now realize that a lot of hot women weigh more than I did back then - like Katy Perry and Number Six (Tricia Helfer) for example. So you're right. Men do this too. 🙁
Blackdragon 2013-02-04 11:58:44
Leo – As much as I would like to assume otherwise, I don’t think a logical appeal about how you’re “not judging me based on rational factors” will sway a woman into liking you. 🙂 Randian – Standing barefoot I’m 5’11”. With shoes on I’m barely 6’0”. That being said I look shorter than I actually am because my body is so broad (broad shoulders, broad torso, thick legs, etc). Ken – Yeah, I also had to learn to set my “looking for” online to higher numbers. I’ve also gotten the “ew old as my mom”. However I have not yet gotten the “OMG your daughter is almost my age” thing, and that surprises me. My daughter is turning 15 in a few months, I usually tell women this on the first date, and I have yet to have a younger woman care. Interesting. Once my daughter gets into ages 19 and 20 I guess we’ll see what happens. Jon – You’re limiting yourself. Reframe your thoughts. Irrationality never creates long term happiness.
Ken 2013-02-04 12:04:06
I've actually gotten the daughter comment a couple of times. Since most women don't give you any meaningful feedback or say anything at all, and what feedback you do get tends to be random, I figure there must be more out there who are thinking it.
Blackdragon 2013-02-04 12:19:06
That's probably true. I'm sure I've slept with some younger women who were maybe a little weirded out about my daughter's age and just didn't say anything about it. But...do I care? 🙂
Ken 2013-02-04 12:30:12
Of course not ... however, I do care about the ones that screen me out for such reasons before I've even had a chance. That's why I stopped talking about my kid on my profile and wait until actually meeting them to bring it up.
Jon 2013-02-04 12:38:11
Jon – You’re limiting yourself. Reframe your thoughts. Irrationality never creates long term happiness.Don't worry Blackdragon, I don't follow those rules now. That was about 20 years ago and one of those things I look back on and say "Man...I can't believe I used to think that way."
Blackdragon 2013-02-04 12:44:38
Yay! (And I'll have to watch my own thoughts when my daughter turns 18-19-20!)
jackmcg 2013-02-04 15:34:32
For whatever reason I've found taller women are more likely to have online dating profiles in the first place. Click through a bunch of profiles and you'll find many more female outliers in height (5'8'' and up), than you would encountering the same number of women in a walk down the street. The VYW's deleting your message are probably just as tall as the one's who end up fucking you.
Blackdragon 2013-02-05 11:51:12
Interesting point. Never thought of that. I don't read profiles so I wouldn't know if most VYW online are above average height, but it's possible.
lifeofalovergirl 2013-02-05 12:32:18
Hmmmm.... I slept with a 22 yr old this summer and at the time I was 35. It totally weirded me out and I just couldn't do it again, even though I saw him working as a waiter once afterwards and he looked all handsome and we texted back and forth but i just couldn't go there. Something about it made me feel like a pedophile or something. I don't have kids that age but I do have a younger brother that is the same age he is. I love my baby brother to death and he is and was in a lot of ways like my "kid". I still think of him as a little kid really and he's 23 so when I realize someone is the same age as him it gives off an ook factor. I'd be creeped out by a woman my age dating HIM too. As for age of my father, well, he was 9 years older than my mom so he'd be 65 now and there's no way I'd want a guy that old, lol. Heck guys my moms age seem pretty old too (56). The oldest I've ever gone is the Professor and he just turned 44. Height... Im 5'6" and the professor has referred to me as tall before which kinda pissed me off. I think of myself as average height not tall and what woman wants to be "tall"? One of my sisters is 5'10" and she hates it!! It doesn't help that the other woman the Professor sees is like 5'0". Makes me feel like he thinks Im some gangly giant in comparison. I don't know if my tall sister likes older guys or not but she's more willing to date ugly ones and likes to use them for their money so shed probably go for old.
jetsetjim 2013-02-07 12:19:25
This is depressing. There's nothing I like more than a 5'0" tall 19 year old 🙁
Mary 2013-02-18 11:22:56
Hi, I think you might find this article interesting: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/opinion/sunday/new-love-a-short-shelf-life.html?pagewanted=all&_r=3& "...if I tell you that college is a waste of time and money and is a horrible idea and provide all kinds of facts to back that up..." You don't have to work in the field you graduated in for your time in college to be considered productive. I know people who went straight into the field they graduated in and years later changed career paths because they weren't "fulfilled". I honestly believe life is what you make of it and we must first stumble before we can walk.
Blackdragon 2013-02-18 11:55:44
That's true but I'm more referring to people who go into massive debt for a college education they never use. Or the 40% who go into debt then drop out. Or the 52% who go into debt then move back home with parents after their degree. Or the people who spend those four years doing useless homework instead of working in the real world and building their resumes. Or...well you get the point. Stumbling is fine. Stumbling with $45,000 of debt that bought you nothing, before you even have a job, is not fine.
Ana 2014-03-22 17:44:59
Hi BD, I was just wondering how you see think the other way around for you. I mean, when your daughter turns 18-20 yo, how do you see things when she dates someone your age or your age range ? (honestly/practically are optimally/rationally)
Blackdragon 2014-03-22 19:10:26
when your daughter turns 18-20 yo, how do you see things when she dates someone your age or your age range ?It's already started to happen. My daughter is 16 and a Type 2 VYW. She was telling me the other day how she "hates boys her own age" and can't wait to have a "30 year old boyfriend". This is no problem to me. Given the choice I'd actually prefer my daughter end up with an older guy than the typical dumbass younger guy. I describe this in more detail here.
ydia eivye 2016-08-17 05:46:03
Think I’m jumping to conclusions? This exact same thing happened several times with several women until I caught on to the pattern. (Sometimes I’m slow on the uptake.)Happened to me all the same. If their offspring is 1-10, no problem. If it is 18-up, problem as soon as I mention I like girls about 18 of age :D. I have noticed this only when they have daughters, though. It's a "then he would want to bang my daughter!" thing. I haven't noticed this happening if they have sons. Let alone what happened when I told a 40 woman her 16-year-old daughter was very sexy and I had no doubt she had already had sexual experiences. "What do you say?! My daughter would never have sex without telling me/me noticing™". And yes, I never heard back from her. :))
Ed 2016-09-08 13:34:10
BD, I guess you're saying that once we cross that "50" line we cannot successfully find 18 to 23 year old women to date us? Seems reverse logic to your previous statements, that all women are attainable within the margins (type 1-3)? I feel that the true Alpha 2 is capable of anything he wants, if he wants it bad enough. I would like to hear your response to this
Blackdragon 2016-09-08 14:09:11
BD, I guess you’re saying that once we cross that “50” line we cannot successfully find 18 to 23 year old women to date us?No. Where did I say that? I said it's a little harder post-50, not that you can't.
Ed 2016-09-09 19:22:10
Your comments to your blog about women's ages and the specifics of the 25s that think they are proma donna beta hunters , and then comments about ages 18-23?that are 1,2,3s and no mention of age other VMY women. Just seems counter intuitive to previous comments My kids are 11 to 23 and I was a 31 when my first was born. My counter parts from high school have kids that are grown, in college or early marriage. So, I attempt to date most 18 to 23s I am clearly running into the "same age as my dad " crap , which frankly is not mentioned as a warning in previous blog posts. Not hammering you BD, but I enjoy your wisdom and have come to expect your own standard to your advice
Blackdragon 2016-09-10 10:47:50
I don't understand your comment.
Ed 2016-09-10 17:17:37
I don't mean to be argumentative, I am trying to understand your ideas. You have mentioned older men, and VYW many times. No mention of 50+ males running into the problems of age comparison with parents, and children ages. Maybe I missed something, but this blog states things I had not read from you before. I am moving to divorce, and was prepping myself for companionship with younger women. I have many questions, and will not bore you further. I have your book, but have not found time to read it yet. Bottom line question is' What age should 50+ males target? What age is more trouble than worth for a 50+ male?
Blackdragon 2016-09-10 18:25:53
No mention of 50+ males running into the problems of age comparison with parents, and children ages.50+ males run into the same problems as any other older men, "older" I usually define as older than age 35. There is no significant difference between the problems a 40 year old guy will have dating VYW and a 50 year old guy (unless the 50 year old guy has really let himself go physically; usually with men 50+ it's not that they're 50+, but that they're 50+ and look like shit). I personally know many 50+ men dating women as young as 22, 23 and 25, and I plan to be playing around with women this age when I turn 50 in 6 years. At age 60, problems do begin, and it will be hard (though not impossible) for a guy over 60 to date women under the age of 30 unless he pays for it in some fashion.
Ed 2016-09-10 20:19:02
Well first off thank you for the reply. I have established a great health plan over the years, and I am blessed with above average health, and looks for my age. My plans are to look to China, Philippines, and South America for companionship. I will read your book, and I would like to attend one of your seminars in the future, maybe in southeast Asia, if you ever get back there.
Steve 2016-10-04 13:19:29
BD the taller women have been treated as more "mature" and it has become "expected" of them to present themselves as such....therefor they do not mind or even possibly look for, an older, more mature guy, to compliment their " expectations...from those around her. A " That is what I would have expected from her" mentality, that is appeased.