Get Free Email Updates!
Join us for FREE to get instant email updates!
Sex On The First Date Or The Second Date?
Jack (one of two Jacks who comment here) posed an interesting question in the comments on a recent post: You recommend a 2 date model whereas most PUAs recommend a one date model. Chase Amante, who I read regularly, argues that every date past the 1st diminishes your chances dramatically. But here’s the thing, I’m 42 and my skills are not that great (I’m learning). But I’ve noticed that for women over 32 it is very hard to get 1st date sex. Hell, getting it by the third date is difficult.
-By Caleb Jones
Instead, today I'm going to discuss a completely different, but equally controversial topic. One I am no stranger to. And that is, whether or not to go for sex on the first date or the second date. I discuss this topic in great detail in my ebooks, so I'll just summarize the arguments pro-first-date-lay vs. pro-second-date-lay. As most of you already know, I endorse a very specific type of two-date model while most traditional seduction guys endorse a one-date model.
Chase Amante, who is a great guy by the way and you should read his stuff, is absolutely correct. Every date after the first date reduces the odds of a woman ever sleeping with you. This is why going the AFC route, which is also the women-over-33 route, which is waiting many dates before you have sex, is a terrible, terrible idea. I don't care how hot she is, how smart she is, how wonderful she is, or how much it appears she likes you. Don't do it.
Not only does it reduce the odds of a lay dramatically, it also starts the relationship off on the completely wrong foot if you do get laid after three or five or seven dates or whatever. You have now started the entire relationship off on her terms, and you're in for rules, demands, and drama in short order. And it will be your fault.
Sexual men who don't like drama, true Alpha Males, have sex with women fast.
First Date ASD
There's one caveat to this. Women have massive, and I mean massive Societal Programming ASD that says "sex on the first date makes me slut". Of course this belief is silly and completely inaccurate, but that's what women believe. You can thank religion, modern feminism, and male slut shamers for installing that silly belief in women. (Just to be clear, I'm not talking about traditional feminism. That actually encouraged women to be sexually free and have sex whenever they wanted. I'm talking about its bastardized modern version.)
Having sex with a condom on a first date doesn't make a woman a slut any more than it makes a man a slut.
The sad reality is that if you routinely try to have sex with women on the first date, you're going to have to put in the extra time and effort to overcome this first-date ASD. If you talk to a lot of guys who often get laid on first dates, you will clearly see that the vast majority of first date lays require LONG first dates. (Read some SNL lay reports on forums and you'll see the same pattern.) Four, five, six, even seven hours or longer is usually required, the sex often happening late in the evening, as in well past midnight. Are there exceptions to the rule where guys get laid on first dates really fast? Of course. But those are the exceptions (in most cases).
If you simply wait until the second date, 90% of this bullshit first date ASD instantly vanishes. The reason my average, grand total, meet-to-lay times these days is three hours or less is because I have a very fast, very inexpensive (often free) first date that lasts under one hour, then I push hard for sex on the second date. On many second dates I'm having sex within 30 minutes, with minimal ASD and minimal resistance. That's a 90 minute meet-to-lay. Because in her irrational feminine brain, it's "not the first date" any more, so it's "okay". Dumb, I agree, but it works. I've been doing this successfully for many years now.
The Older, The More ASD
The second challenge is, as Jack has discovered, and as I state in my definition of ASD in my glossary, ASD is a direct result of Societal Programming, and the older you are the more time society has had to program you. That means that generally speaking, the older a woman is, the harder it is to lay her on the first date. (Yes, yes, I know there are unusual exceptions to this rule. Please don't bother to point them out to me. As always, the exceptions prove the rule.) This childish "sex on the first date makes me a slut" thing is much more powerful in a 35 year-old woman than it is an a 25 year-old woman, and the 25 year-old has it much more than an 18 year-old.
Society will have done its evil work. Thanks, slut shamers!
Responses To A One-Date Model
Traditional seduction community guys say that "waiting" to fuck a girl until the second date (or third date or fourth date or whatever) is stupid and AFCish. A real man with game fucks a girl on the first date, not the second.
They are right...assuming that guy "waiting" past the first date is doing it in the traditional AFC manner.
Many years ago when I started with this stuff, I would wait three dates before trying to have sex. I would have a first date that was a long, fancy dinner date. Then I'd have a second date, which was another long, fancy dinner date. Then I had the third date, which was, you guessed it, another long, fancy fucking dinner date. Then, finally, I would push for sex at the end of that date.
Oh, those women LOVED dating me! Free fancy dinners! Hours and hours of attention from a man! Not needing to violate their ASD by having sex! They loved it!
But do you think I got laid? NO.
Other than the one-out-of-ten exceptions to the rule, I got no sex. For months I ended up wasting hundreds of dollars and scores of man hours wasting my time on first, second, and third dates that went absolutely nowhere.
God damn, it was brutal. I still have heart palpitations from that time in my life. Ugh.
Most of you know the rest of the story. After years of experimenting with different systems, mostly with online dating, I got my meet-to-lay times and money-spent numbers lower and lower. Today it's under three hours and the grand total cost every time I do it is zero to about $14. All with a two-date model. One cheap or free under-60-minute first date, then a second "date" where she comes to my place and I escalate hard to sex. I also stopped cold approaching any women over age 33 several years ago, further boosting my results.
(Don't misunderstand me. I still date women over 33 occasionally because there are indeed some advantages to dating older women. It's just that I don't approach any over-33 woman sexually unless she already knows me first. If she's an over-33 who is a complete stranger, like on an online dating site, then I'll have to deal with her stupid ASD. No thanks.)
So use a two date model, just make sure it's the Blackdragon version of a two date system (that I describe in detail in this ebook), not the AFC "repeatedly-take-them-out-to-dinner-and-cross-your-fingers" model that the pickup artist guys often (correctly) rail against.
Want over 35 hours of how-to podcasts on how to improve your woman life and financial life? Want to be able to coach with me twice a month? Want access to hours of technique-based video and audio? The SMIC Program is a monthly podcast and coaching program where you get access to massive amounts of exclusive, members-only Alpha 2.0 content as soon as you sign up, and you can cancel whenever you want. Click here for the details.
Get Free Email Updates!
Join us for FREE to get instant email updates!
Lee 2013-06-16 05:57:49
My experience has shown me that working class women aged under 25 are the best for first date “romantic” adventures. They seem to accept that men want sex quickly and aren’t yet bitter and motivated by punishing new men for the mistakes of past men.
Jon 2013-06-16 06:45:56
If you talk to a lot of guys who often get laid on first dates, you will clearly see that the vast majority of first date lays require LONG first dates. (Read some SNL lay reports on forums and you’ll see the same pattern.) Four, five, six, even seven hours or longer is usually required, the sex often happening late in the evening, as in well past midnight.Yeah, I've noticed that too. I just read a LR where the date started about the time I usually go to bed (11 pm) and ended w/sex about an hour before I usually get up for work (5 am). There is just no way I could function if that was the only option.
Jim 2013-06-16 06:58:11
I think it's incorrect to blame religion, modern feminism, and/or slut shaming for why things are the way they are. It's like blaming gun laws or guns for killings, when there are deeper matters at play. I've never studied evolutionary psychology, but I'm suspecting the reason these society rules are in place are a result of unfavorable past situations. For example, a woman has sex quickly with a guy, gets knocked up, and the guy is nowhere to be seen, leaving the woman with a kid and no one to help.
Jan 2013-06-16 07:42:07
Are there any specific things to look for when going for first date lays? The reason I am asking is that one of my later first dates with a very hot (second hottest I've seen from internet dating) 25 year old that was extremely into me. ,She initiated touch and even some light makeout, on the first date but stopped replying before a second date. I guess I was too stuck in your "short first date don;t go for lay" mind set to simply take her home.There might be other things I am missing though, but I suspect that instead of hot rebound(she mentioned her ex breaking up with her being on the website) sex with me she found someone else to find that role.
Blackdragon 2013-06-16 10:48:44
I think it’s incorrect to blame religion, modern feminism, and/or slut shaming for why things are the way they are. It’s like blaming gun laws or guns for killings, when there are deeper matters at play. I’ve never studied evolutionary psychology, but I’m suspecting the reason these society rules are in place are a result of unfavorable past situations. For example, a woman has sex quickly with a guy, gets knocked up, and the guy is nowhere to be seen, leaving the woman with a kid and no one to help.Then why are older women demonstrably worse in this area than younger women?
Are there any specific things to look for when going for first date lays?I don't go for first date lays so you're asking the wrong guy. 🙂 Maybe the other commenters will help you out.
Bastardly 2013-06-16 13:23:18
@Jan You more or less answered your own question, mentioning that she talked about just getting out of a relationship (women feel little to no guilt out of a rebound fuck, it's like a freebee I hear that and know that girl is going to have sex with a stranger soon), that she initiated kino and making out. That's a down to fuck woman if I've ever seen one. Women who seem comfortable touching and kissing quickly and are fresh out of relationships are almost always looking for quick sex. Just escalate a little more than you did maybe look up BD's sex talk article and throw in a 'hey come hangout at my place for a bit, let's go." Make it easy for her. Other signs are when she's giving you puppy dog eyes when there's no talking and she just won't stop like a staring contest; talking about how she's newly single and 'just wants to have fun for awhile'; says she's having fun with you and ask what you're doing the rest of the day (past your bar/coffee shop meet). Really I didn't list much BUT I get A LOT of some day lays just being out (or on FaceBook) hearing women talk about just getting out of a relationship (there are tons of them in any city and they usually initiate the breakup) then invite them to have a drink, it's a SNL goldmine. @Jim That's all bullshit and makes no logical sense. Oh no you're right, brainwashing cults, pussy prizing and forcing shame on a woman because she has enjoyed sex would NEVER make her resistant to having sex with a guy she recently met. Think, then speak (or type).
jack 2013-06-16 15:11:17
BD, Thanks for answering my question. It was helpful. It seems that for younger puas/players/etc, they are able to get away with first date sex far easier than for 35+ guys. I've read many lay reports over the last two years and when guys are in their 20s and they are good its relatively easy for them to meet a girl, get her phone number with a 3-10 minute chat, text her to set up the meet, then just invite her over to their house for "drinks and a movie", then escalate, overcome lmr, and then sex. Paul Janka was a master at this. He got to a point where he didn't even need to use venues like lounges. But he only did this up until 35 or so. My guess is that the one date system, what Chase calls the "easy dates", just isn't easy for 40+ guys. Then when a man gets older he has to scale up in age and when you are dealing with women in their 30s and 40s first date sex becomes very hard. Basically, seduction is at its easiest when you are a young man. Which is why I think you are the best source of seduction information for older men. Most pua stuff is just geared to men 18-35. I really wish there would be a niche market in the community which specialized in "older man game", maybe even a forum where men in their late 30s, 40s, 50s, and up could post their lay reports and tactics, etc. I know women are women even as they age, but there are nuances that come with age. Also, it would be good to see the limits of night game (bars) and day game for older men. How realistic is street game, for example, for men 40+? 50+? Thanks again for the post.
Blackdragon 2013-06-16 16:44:14
To the troll who keeps placing personal-attack comments that I have to keep deleting...one of the rules of this blog is that you must state why you feel the way you do. You have to actually make a reasoned argument like an adult. If all you do is make personal attacks and then run away, your comments will be deleted and your IP will be banned, which is what I have done.
Bastardly 2013-06-16 16:51:19
@jack The idea of an older man niche is I think a great one. Things do change as you get older. BD has a few books and many post on related subjects and slowly the PU community is growing into that age group and exploring that new ground and how to over come it's limitations. I think there's a hurdle with many guys (by that time) having their game down and not having a lot of use for the community so a lot of guys who are great with women in their 40s and beyond aren't teaching and sharing about it. BD has said he knows a few guys older than him who slay younger women but they seem resistant to being interviewed. I'm curious how old you are, if your opinion of younger guys getting laid easier is from experience. I'm near my mid thirties now and get laid easier then ever. BD is in his early 40's and seems to have had new young very attractive women on rotation for years now. What I'm saying is I think the idea that it's harder to get laid as you get older is only from your (and other men's) limiting beliefs. Yeah I know guys who don't get the quality of women they use to, naturals who just aren't that cool anymore. But that's why, they stopped growing and pushing themselves and being the badasses they were at a younger age now they're just batas. An alpha at nearly any age is going to pull younger women. I think the trick is staying that driven alpha. Look at most of those older guys who struggle to pull women, doesn't it seem like most of them are ass kissing betas who put out weird vibes from years of kissing up to women?
Blackdragon 2013-06-16 17:39:54
I once tried to focus on guys over age 40, but I'm sad to say the interest just isn't there. I've tried hard, several times over the last few years, to appeal to older guys. Every time I get lots of guys in their 20s and early 30s instead. Which is fine; those guys need help too. I get way, way more email asking me to talk more about younger guy game than older guy game. It's just the nature of the market. When you say seduction is for guys age 18-35, that's true, but only because those are the ages in which men are most interested in these topics. Most men, by age 40 and beyond, are married (or living with someone) and are busy raising kids and stressing out about things like taxes and supporting their families. Learning how to get laid with new women just isn't a priority. The few older men who are still player-ish, as Bastardly said, are often turned off by a lot of the immaturity and pettiness found in the seduction community, and that's on top of fighting off beta males and feminists. So they either tune out or remain lurkers. Where you're wrong is when you say it's harder to get to sex fast if you're older. I'm 41 and have been doing this stuff since I was 36. That means 100% of my experience in this world is as an man over age 35, outside the 18-35 range. And I certainly haven't had any problem getting to sex fast once I figured a few things out. There are many men over 35, and over 40 (and over 50!) who do get laid a lot and laid fast. They just don't go about it the exact same way a 22 year-old guy would, and they tend to focus on their target markets better.
Dennis 2013-06-16 22:33:06
I'm 60+ my target market is women in there 40s and 50s. I like BD don't try for a lay on the first date and keep the first date 45min or under and cheap. In my age group many of the women don't look like their pics and I have no desire to fuck them so the first days is short. Very rarely do I turn a first date into a lay. It's just the age group. If the women is attractive, I invite her over to my house for dinner. It's an absolute must that you isolate the woman on the second date. If I don't fuck the woman on the second date depending on how far I get I ask her on a third date to hang out. If no sex on the third date next. My stats are,for every 50 women I email online 5 to 10 will reply and meet for a first date. Out of those 5 to 10, 1 or 2 will fuck by day 2 or day 3. These are all older women. The only thing I see is that the numbers of women who are attractive enough to fuck is decreasing exponentially with age. So I don't have as big of selection as younger guys. I've never tried to seduce a women in their late 20s or early 30s. I always get the ewww factor.
Fred 2013-06-17 01:41:52
I don't think you'll find it easy to ban my IP. See? BD, you must understand how similar your behaviour is to that of a r apist. Look at how many times you say "push for sex", "pressure for sex". This is not normal. We all like sex but you define your existence by it, and that makes me wonder what deeper issues you're masking here. Normal people aren't obsessed with sex to the point of keeping spreadsheets FFS. So you're fat and bald... and sleeping with lots of women somehow validates your existence? Why not try actually doing something useful with your life? It strikes me that you actually despise women and see them as nothing more than stupid pieces of meat for you to stick your dick into. It's all about you... you are a total narcissist and you seem to have found a way of monetising the desperate virgins who hang on to your every word on here. Seriously, step back for a minute and look at the stuff you write. You're only a hair's breadth away from qualifying as a sex offender.
Lee 2013-06-17 03:20:47
I am the same age as BD and would appreciate at least one decent article on mature men approaching the younger woman online.
Jack 2013-06-17 03:22:22
@Fred: Everything you say would be true if all women were lesbians, or low sex drive prudes. But they're not. You're making the same classic mistake that lesbian feminists and conservative chivalrists alike are making: Portraying sex as something men do to women in a one way street fashion. That's the lesbian brain at work. But most women love sex more than men do. Although I don't expect lesbian feminists or traditional conservatives to get this. To those two groups (especially the lesbians), every man is just one step away from being a rapist, because female sexuality is just not something they can wrap their brains around. Are you really a lesbian woman posing as "Fred," or have you simply been brainwashed by the lesbian feminists? Either way, read some sex positive literature from horny straight women when you get the chance, and then you'll see that BD is probably the furthest thing from a rapist that you can be. Sex is MUTUAL! But only straight women know that. Feminists are clueless as usual!
Lee 2013-06-17 03:30:29
LOL. If I was called Fred, i would be furious too.
Jim 2013-06-17 03:58:47
@Jack - Wow, so you've totally bought into this self-justifying bullshit 100% then. "If people think that being obsessed with sex and seeing women as nothing more than a collection of orifices for a man's gratification is somehow bad, then they MUST be a lesbian". Yep that's right, anyone who has even the slightest bit of respect for women must be a big old dyke. Only REAL men like you think of nothing more than what they can stuff their greasy c0ck into 24 hours a day. I'm not a woman, just someone who stumbled across this place and was really quite disgusted by the caveman approach. You are the kind of people who give men a bad name. You stumble about with your c0cks out, desperately trying to fuck anything that moves in some pathetic attempt to bolster your sad little egos. Some people have enough going on in their lives that "fucking bitches" as you put it, and talking endlessly about it like it's some sort of mechanical, business transaction on the Internet, just looks really really sad. I'm sure you'll come back and call me a lesbian (original!) or imply that I am some sort of loser. But I have slept with lots of women - I just didn't think of them as cum buckets like you do. I actually liked them rather than having some psychopathic "need" to fuck them then shout about it because of a deep seated inadequacy.
Jack 2013-06-17 04:10:24
@Jim: You say you are a man who has slept with many women. But look at the language that you're using. Everything you just wrote describes sex as something men do TO women. "A collection of orifices for a man's gratification?" Sure, if she's a lesbian, or if the man is a rapist. Otherwise, however, it's for THE WOMAN'S GRATIFICATION also!!!! Why are you leaving out the woman's gratification??? This is why I called Fred a lesbian. I'm suspicious of anyone who describes sex the way you and Fred have - as a one way street for the man's gratification, as if she doesn't receive any pleasure. So............wanting to give as many women as possible as many orgasms as possible is, according to you,...........disrespecting women??? Dude, I would love it if many women wanted to give as many men as possible constant sexual pleasure! It's not disrespecting women. Rather, it's treating them the way we ourselves would like to be treated, which is the essence of respect - do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Frank 2013-06-17 04:14:47
@Jack - Oh dear you really haven't understood at all have you? I'm not saying that's how I think of women, I'm saying it's how YOU and this black dragon psycho do.
Jack 2013-06-17 04:25:46
@Frank: No. I can't get turned on unless the woman does. If she's not moaning in pleasure, I can't get an erection. It's about her pleasure, which is the source of mine. Again, it's treating women the way I'd like to be treated. I'd say that makes me the opposite of the guy who believes sex is all for him. Watch any porn movie. What turns men on about it? The women screaming in pleasure, not the men. So accusing us of using women as objects for our gratification, without caring about their gratification, is the most ironic thing you could accuse us of!
Blackdragon 2013-06-17 10:25:19
Having consensual sex with women makes one a psycho, but using other innocent people's email addresses to spam comments, using IP addresses that have been blacklisted by other providers as forum spam sources, ranting like a madman with not one rational comment, that doesn't one a psycho at all. Keep it up Fred/Jim/Frank. Keep thinking about me and talking about me. Keep using different email accounts and IP's like the obsessive creepjob you are and keep bringing more traffic and interest and sales to my site the way obsessive stalkers like you always do.
Blackdragon 2013-06-17 11:00:08
Dennis what's the youngest woman you've been with? (Recently?)
Rose 2013-06-17 11:58:41
To the Troll, I'm sorry but I must speak up. Wanting to have sex with women makes you a RAPIST? I read this blog all the time and there is nothing misogynistic about it. Men and women both like sex. Men AND women both want to improve their skills in this area. So freakin what? It's the human condition. We are sexual. To call someone a rapist is disgusting and unacceptable. I feel sorry for you. Perhaps you're lacking in this are.
Rose 2013-06-17 11:59:40
ARD 2013-06-17 12:50:26
@jack: *slow clap*
Jack 2013-06-17 12:53:19
Assaults??? LOL, you would be funny if you weren't so sad.
dennis 2013-06-17 13:15:20
@BD, 45 and amazingly enough that was one of my rare day one lays.. I find it hard(no pun intended) to bridge the 20 year age difference gap. And as I said before, the number of attractive choices is dwindling fast. The number of women who take care of themselves, are not fat and with good skin exponentially decreases with age. Not that men my age are any better. I'm the exception because I work out with weights four times a week and take care of myself and I look for that exception in women. That is, women who workout and keep their bodies attractive.
jack 2013-06-17 13:42:53
BD, Thanks for your reply. If I could ask a follow up... What do you think is the best approach to game for men 40 and up? I know on-line game is potent and relatively easy, but what do you think are the limits with day game and night game (bars and lounges not night clubs which are a young man's terrain)? I haven't done much day game due to time constraints but I intend to. I might even get some instruction. Its been said that its difficult to get the prettier women with on-line game and that day game is your best bet for the real pretty ones. Although I have a feeling you will disagree with that (incidentally that is a staple of PUA thought). I got out of a five year relationship recently and during that time I discovered game/pua. I'm in the process of designing a plan and a potential lifestyle, which is why I ask. Dennis, Your story is uplifting. I know its difficult to find quality at your age but you are seducing women as much as 17 years younger than you. I take inspiration from that.
Matt T. 2013-06-17 16:09:41
@Fred/Jim/Frank: I think you're having trouble with the terminology we use. Terms like "push for sex" and "pressure for sex" really just means that we casually escalate to sex if she wants it to happen. As the seducer, we must take initiative - casually - if any intimacy is going to occur. If she does not want sex, she will stop the escalation herself, and we will respect that. We can always try again on day 3. We are not rapists. That said... I totally pushed a girl for sex last week and made her scream (in a good way). 😉
Ash 2013-06-17 19:28:34
MattT ... Fred won't understand. The way he gets laid is by asking repeatedly (begging), until she takes pity. And he calls it a r-ape because we aren't paying for it. He "needs" to respond to this post because he has a case of heart palpitations much severe than BD. 😀
Jon 2013-06-17 23:01:44
You guys should stop feeding the troll. He isn't here to convince people of views that may not even be his real ones, he is here to piss people off. He isn't even being subtle. Do not take him seriously. It is an obvious troll and it is better to just not respond to him. Doing so is just validation of what he is doing. I'm not saying you dismiss arguments solely because you don't agree with them, just don't respond to people who clearly aren't taking this seriously. He isn't debating/arguing. He isn't trying to be informative or convincing, he is just trying to piss you off and you are showing him that it is working.
Prof Rob 2013-06-19 14:12:01
As always, BD provides rational well thought out ideas. The person(s) who is accusing him of horrible things need to take a breath and consider what Jack also states. Very very true. Sex is two way. Always has been., always will be. BD provides one of many platforms for adults to learn and share in this glorious activity on terms that don't reduce men to less than what they should be. At 43, i have a date tomorrow with a 28 year old. I will be playing by the rules, cheap, short, openly sexual but not rude, and see what the second date brings. When the second does not come, I have lost nothing, but when it comes, I have won everything! peace.
Mike 2013-06-19 22:53:42
Great, thorough post! I've found what you've said to be dead on... can sleep with a girl on a first date often, but that's only if I like the girl and want to spend some real time with her on that first date. 5-6 hours is okay for me and a lot of fun if I have the free time to really go on a spontaneous adventure, like Lee said.
Lee 2013-06-20 05:36:27
Let’s not forget that we might not always want a traditional “date”. It is ALLOWED to meet another consenting adult for some “naughty” adventures and fun.
laidnyc 2013-06-20 06:53:21
ASD is not all socially conditioned. Paternal desertion, death by childbirth, incurable STDs are all consequences the female brain is emotionally wired for. The fact that we have condoms, abortion and birth control pills has done little to change the emotional wiring. Social and religious conditioning is but a small factor compared to the real physical risks. Due to some allevation of these physical risks, our current society is one of the least slut-shamey in known history. Most social conditioning is encouraging girls to get laid, not discouraging it. Older women don't have any more or less ASD than a younger woman, they just realize putting out slower is a strategy to cash in their dwindling SMV for a long term committment. They realize putting out fast makes most men less likely to commit. It is a rational strategy.
Blackdragon 2013-06-20 13:11:16
Older women don’t have any more or less ASD than a younger woman, they just realize putting out slower is a strategy to cash in their dwindling SMV for a long term committment. They realize putting out fast makes most men less likely to commit. It is a rational strategy.No, it is not a rational strategy. I agree with you that there are other factors involved besides societal conditioning, but it's still a huge factor, perhaps the biggest, with women over 33. I would like to see any study that clearly indicates most men will commit sooner and/or stay committed longer to a woman if she has sex with him on the sixth date rather than the second date. If you know of any I'd be happy to look at them, but I've never seen any. However, Marc Rudov has quoted studies that say the exact reverse; that the more time a man spends pursuing a woman without sex, in the long run, not the short run but the long run, the less he will respect her sexually and is more likely he is to cheat and/or leave. (Marc often uses the example of Tiger Woods, who pursued the hell out of Elin before he finally got to her.) Women think men will commit sooner/better if they delay sex, but there's no evidence to suggest this applies to most men in the real world outside of women's Disney 1950s fantasies. Why do women think this? Societal Programming. No, it is not a rational strategy.
Sanssouci 2013-06-20 13:35:36
"If you talk to a lot of guys who often get laid on first dates, you will clearly see that the vast majority of first date lays require LONG first dates. (Read some SNL lay reports on forums and you’ll see the same pattern.) Four, five, six, even seven hours or longer is usually required, the sex often happening late in the evening, as in well past midnight." Personally, I've never had a first date lay take one hour, let alone seven. And my dates are usually are around 9 or 10 pm when I get outta work. What I do is: -Invite a girl over to my house for a movie (usually Step Brothers or Breakfast at Tiffany's, it doesn't really matter since we don't end up watching much anyway) -Chitchat for a few minutes (like 10-20), maybe do the "cube" -Put movie on, if she's sitting kinda far on the bed, tell her to come sit closer, and get her to lay on my arm. About 5-10 minutes in to the movie go for a kiss, then escalate to petting and sex I'd say about 30% there's no sex just 3rd base/nipple biting/oral type stuff, and 70% it's sex in about a half an hour or less. Tried the starbucks date thing a few times, since there's one right across the street from my house. I've found I like just bringing the girl straight over, since I'm not a great conversationalist, so a lot of the times coffee shop dates are just deliciously awkward, and if I want to physically escalate there's a table in the way. The only drawback I've found with 30 minute lays is that buyer's remorse seems to get a lot stronger, and even if you make sure she's really satisfied in the sack, there's still like a 50/50 chance she'll flake and just be a ONS.
laidnyc 2013-06-20 13:47:05
I'm sure you'll know as well as anyone that statistical evidence in this arena will be pretty tough, for multiple reasons. First, anyone doing a study on this probably has an agenda, so one person can dismissively write off a study just by looking at who the researchers are. Second, the actions of alphas and betas will obviously be different. A beta will stick like glue to the first girl who fucks him, whether its the first, second, eighth or eighteenth date. So for 80% of the male population, statistical evidence is pretty much void. For those chumps, it doesn't matter when she puts out. The problem is girls don't want those guys. So how about the alphas? As far as I know its impossible for researchers to separate guys into alpha and beta and see when each guy commits, so stats don't help girls much in this regard. Third, even if stats showed that some alphas stuck around after fucking the first date, it would ignore all the girls the alphas pumped and dumped after one date. Girls looking for a relationship may see that outcome as a negative. Fourth, I don't believe your example of Tiger and Elin is in your favor. Tiger was a high sex drive cheater probably guaranteed to cheat on any woman. Yet Elin got more commitment out of him then anyone. She made him wait, she got marriage and millions. Would he have married her if she gave it up on the first date? Who knows, but there's a large sample set of cocktail waitresses that say he wouldn't have. Research on this is hard to find. For the specific metrics you're asking, date girl first puts out and length of relationship, I can't find a single study, not in favor of my argument or yours. If you know what study Marc Rudov was quoting I'd like to take a look,. I like Rudov. This is the closest thing I can find: Its metrics miss the mark but its interesting nonetheless. My Jerry Springer final thought: Women over 33 were once under 33. That would mean early in life they were putting out faster with less ASD under your theory. Yet here they are, over 33 and still didn't get committment. They're quick on their back strategy didn't work. Just the fact that she's still on the market and has to restort to holding out sex is, I believe, evidence against your theory. There was less of a cougar bubble in the disney 1950s.
Jack 2013-06-21 14:40:36
@Sanssouci Interesting post. How old are you if I may ask? And what is the age range of the girls you seduce especially your sweet spot?
Jack 2013-06-21 14:51:34
laidnyc, Susan Walsh of Hooking Up Smart has cited studies that say that waiting 30 to 60 days before sexual activity correlates highly with lower divorce rates and higher marital satisfaction. I don't have access to those studies though nor a link. But Walsh is credible IMO. I don't doubt this and if I had a daughter that is the strategy I would encourage, but by definition any man who would wait that long is either a beta or a stronger man with a commitment to some type of moral authority (usually religious). But if it is true that 80% of human males are not alphas, i.e. psychologically dominant males, then nearly all women will be marrying a beta. If women really do crave alpha males then the majority of women that walk this earth will be unhappy. If that is true it is a depressing fact about the human race.
Jack 2013-06-21 15:01:15
For the specific metrics you’re asking, date girl first puts out and length of relationship, I can’t find a single study, not in favor of my argument or yours. Oh, one last thing. Walsh has quoted statistics that hookups only lead to relationships 12% of the time. Again I don't have links but search her blog or ask her in her comments section. BTW, Walsh's main message is to get women to require monogamous commitment before giving sex. I'm seeing this more often. There are even male dating coaches now giving seminars to women on how to get a man and keep him. And here they are not teaching girls to snag players because that is impossible. It seems like they are trying to teach girls to find the better betas. Interesting. I wonder if the sexual free-for-all that transpired over the last 40 years is going to slow down. Pendulum swing maybe.
Blackdragon 2013-06-21 16:16:49
First, anyone doing a study on this probably has an agenda, so one person can dismissively write off a study just by looking at who the researchers are.Yes that's always a challenge. For example most of the "studies" I've seen people quote about "make him wait for sex and then your relationship will be better!" are almost always quoted from right-wing Christian types who of course want that kind of thing to be true.
Women over 33 were once under 33. That would mean early in life they were putting out faster with less ASD under your theory. Yet here they are, over 33 and still didn’t get committment. They’re quick on their back strategy didn’t work. Just the fact that she’s still on the market and has to restort to holding out sex is, I believe, evidence against your theory.Great argument, you're a sharp guy, but still no dice. Women over 33 who are married were just as horny and wild and sexual in their early 20's as unmarried over-33 women. If you need evidence of this, talk to five or six random married women well over 33 and ask them about how much sex they had when they were under 25 and unmarried, then watch their eyes light up like Christmas trees as they recount their wild sexual escapades "back then". Unmarried women over 33 are screwing up causation and correlation. "I was such a 'slut' back when I was young, and I still don't have a husband. Therefore 'slut' = no marriage. Therefore, I should make guys wait for sex." The problem is she's completely forgetting about her three girlfriends her age who were just as slutty back then who now have husbands. Oops.
Walsh’s main message is to get women to require monogamous commitment before giving sex....I wonder if the sexual free-for-all that transpired over the last 40 years is going to slow down.No, quasi-feministy modern-day "strong" women have always wanted this. It's nothing new, especially, again, with women over 33. I was listening to female dating experts on the radio as long as 15 years ago espousing the same exact thing.
Susan Walsh of Hooking Up Smart has cited studies that say that waiting 30 to 60 days before sexual activity correlates highly with lower divorce rates and higher marital satisfaction. I don’t have access to those studies though nor a link.I'll say it again. If any of you can provide me links that are not behind paywalls of actual studies that examine thousands of people that clearly indicate a woman forcing a man to wait for sex longer than 2-3 dates results in that man committing sooner and/or staying longer without cheating, then I will be happy to analyse them. Again I will state that the only time I hear about these things are from Christian groups, but I will look at the studies regardless. (And remember, I'm talking about sex on the second date, I'm not talking about random one-night same-night hookups.) Just use common sense for a minute. A woman and guy are going on dates on a regular basis, he badly wants sex like any normal healthy man, she keeps on saying no and lecturing him about how he needs to wait...for up to 60 DAYS. Forget Alpha Males, and forget hardcore Christian guys...is the typical, normal guy more likely to commit to this frigid bitch? And stay with her longer if he does? Does that make any sense to you?
Jack 2013-06-23 05:40:19
@Jack: The reason women are unhappy is because monogamy doesn't work. The solution is for women to share each other's alpha males via an open relationship. That's what women are beginning to do. And please don't teach your daughter to be a frigid prude. Encourage her to reject marriage and monogamy instead. Those barbaric institutions need to go anyway. I'm sure she can get alpha males, even taken alpha males in open relationships. There is no scarcity of alpha dick if you throw monogamy out the window. Europe did it, now it's our turn.
Sanssouci 2013-06-24 06:26:39
@Jack "Interesting post. How old are you if I may ask? And what is the age range of the girls you seduce especially your sweet spot?" I'm 27, the girls are usually 18-25
Damien Rodriquez 2013-07-05 20:55:41
I had sex on the first date with my last three girlfriends. The first one stayed with me for three months. The second one stayed with me for 11 years and we have a child together. The third one has been with me for two years and we are still together. If I have a date with a mature woman and we do not have sex on the first date, I will assume that she does not really like me and I will try elsewhere. So if you do not have sex on the first date there will probably not be a second date.
Smith 2014-05-24 07:12:57
I have been changing up my strategy and using yours Bd, it works like a charm. My first date sex adventures took always a while + sweet talking. However, second date sex just happens naturally. Thanks a lot!!
mrkitti 2014-09-06 20:39:12
I came across your mothod of dating about a year ago, and ive also been doing alot of other stuff. This year was a quickstart to get as much experience as possible, as fast as possible. Now im thinking about buying some of your books. Out of all the methods, this seems like the easiest explained. But im glad ive checked out other stuff too, so i could get the comparisons of methods. anyways. one of my favorite expressions is to "strike while the iron is hot" and i believe thats the point of the 2 date system. you dont bore her. you make the iron hot on the first date, and until date nr 2, you make sure it doesnt get cold. there are so many dates, i wished i just tried getting home with me on the first date. I would rather get a rejection like she doesnts want to come home with me, or doesnt want to escalate to sex, than her not responding or flaking later. the 2 date works for sure. If a girl youve met, agrees to meet you again at your place, its a 95% sure thing. But would your chances increase or decrease if you try to take her home with you on the first date? I would say that if she wants to go home with you after youve taken a cup of coffee, it would be a quite certain thing. what do u think? some of my best experiences has been with instant stuff. is there a way to check with her, if she's up to it or not, without asking. they dont always show any signs that theyre THAT interested in you, if you know what i mean. i think my question goes like this: is there any way to check if the girl would come home with you, without asking for it on the first date. And when you feel pretty sure, you tell her she can come along.
Ron Gordon 2015-04-09 19:06:52
Thank you for the helpful advice above. I have a question as follows: I typically meet a woman while out at bars with friends or day pickup. There is usually 5-30 minutes of interaction and exchange of contact. Then I will set up the first date for drinks and always try to go for the lay the first date. Last night, on the first date with a 27 year old when I suggested we enter a love hotel (Tokyo), she said "I am not so easy,,," and laughed. I saw her off and deleted her from my phone and she did not text back. My question is after such obvious failure do you recommend to keep texting them for a second date? Thanks.
Blackdragon 2015-04-11 11:25:35
My question is after such obvious failure do you recommend to keep texting them for a second date?Yes. Set up a second date. And that wasn't a "failure." That was just standard ASD, which is par for the course when you try to sexually escalate on a first date (something I don't do).
Justin 2016-07-25 10:49:57
Black Dragon, Are there other places suggestions (as in not at home) to pull of a Date 2 lay? Still getting priorities straight which I'm doing (as in living with a parent yeah I know lol), but I'm gaining confidence to get the ball rolling to this lifestyle change. Suggestions? Thanks for your time!
Blackdragon 2016-07-26 12:26:58
Are there other places suggestions (as in not at home) to pull of a Date 2 lay?- Her place. - A friend's place. - A family member's place. - A hotel (though that costs money).
Justin 2016-07-26 12:59:07
Thanks for answering the question. (Kinda a bonehead question, but wanted some suggestions.) Really appreciate everything. Ordered the book!
Rezzy 2016-10-14 20:54:44
Hi BD, one thing I noticed is that you explain that you escalate fast on a your day 2s but don't have any posts explaining how you technically go about that. You're very thorough when explaining how you touch on a a Day 1. Just curious if you have any Day 2 methods, such as talking for an hour about sex then going going in for the kiss. Any clarification would be great.
Blackdragon 2016-10-15 02:12:09
Hi BD, one thing I noticed is that you explain that you escalate fast on a your day 2s but don’t have any posts explaining how you technically go about that.Google "DiCarlo Escalation Ladder." That's not what I do these days, but for beginners and intermediates, it's the perfect answer to your question.
Michal 2016-12-08 04:12:57
BD, what is your opinion on cooking dinner for new women on second date? Any cons that may make the lay more difficult? Thanks, Michal
Blackdragon 2016-12-08 10:54:50
BD, what is your opinion on cooking dinner for new women on second date? Any cons that may make the lay more difficult?It's fine. I never do it because it's not my style, but there's nothing wrong with it as long as you do everything else correctly.
daniel 2017-01-04 02:46:34
In response to some guys asking about signs for 1st date lays, I have found that if a woman accepts your invitation to go home with you after the first date, she will have sex with you 100% of the time, simple as that. So at the end of the date I'll invite her back to my place. If she says no it's not a big deal, and it's still useful to already lay the groundwork for the 2nd date being at my place. Offering to cook dinner is very much my style, since I cook my own dinner every night anyway and I'm good at it. It's also great in the rare cases that she won't escalate all the way to sex before dinner, because I think that then the cooking and eating somehow creates enough space between the first attempt and the post-meal attempt that they are then willing to go further, similar to the difference between a 1st/2nd date. But honestly I've found it's pretty unusual that it comes to that. Full disclosure, I would say my skills as below average, I've been on only 26 dates since putting BD's system into action for the first time 9 months ago. Of those 26 dates, roughly half were 1st date lays and half were 2nd date lays, with most being girls at least 12 years younger than I am (I'm 35). The only girls I have met that took as long as 3 dates were virgins.
mrre 2017-10-18 14:10:55
Full disclosure, I am an avid reader of GirlsChase and I usually come here for relationship management advice. You say it takes too much time to have first date sex. This is not true, more correctly it is the exception rather than rule. I always have first date sex and it usually takes about 1,5 hours sometimes much less if the girl is dtf. I don't remember any interaction which took 4 hours, god forbid. I might have lost some girls by pushing for first date sex I admit which I might have scored on the second date. But sometimes leaving things for the second date costs you the girl as well as you may not be able to get her in a second date. If you have an extended first date, like, over an hour the chances definitely drop. I guess some of it is about training as well. I'm sure I could have gotten better at second date template if I worked on it as well. I worked on first date so I became good on that instead. Just pointing out what's possible. I never have much ASD nowadays but I agree that second date might help with that. There are other ways to circumvent it however such as painting yourself (often implicitly) as a sexually liberated guy, making her horny etc. Another benefit of second date template is retention I think. When you have sex with a girl too quickly, sometimes it leads to girls seeing you as too much of a fucktoy and they may not wanna see you again. Keep up the good work my man!
AlphaOmega 2017-10-18 15:03:52
In response to some guys asking about signs for 1st date lays, I have found that if a woman accepts your invitation to go home with you after the first date, she will have sex with you 100% of the time, simple as that. So at the end of the date I’ll invite her back to my place. If she says no it’s not a big deal, and it’s still useful to already lay the groundwork for the 2nd date being at my place.I was usually inviting them for a movie night. Problem is some of them really want to watch a movie and we dont get much done quickly as they insist on watching it. Maybe I will try the dinner thing next.
You say it takes too much time to have first date sex. This is not true, more correctly it is the exception rather than rule. I always have first date sex and it usually takes about 1,5 hours sometimes much less if the girl is dtf. I don’t remember any interaction which took 4 hours, god forbid.What do your first dates look like? I guess its not the usual drinks at the bar then? I dont see girls who dont know me being open to anything else though. But perhaps drinks in a bar close to my place and after a very short drink walk in a park then drink at my place?
But sometimes leaving things for the second date costs you the girl as well as you may not be able to get her in a second date.5Yes ive been seeing this a lot for myself lately. I am starting to experiment with being more daring and forward on first dates and see how that changes things.
If you have an extended first date, like, over an hour the chances definitely drop.I dont have enough data to back it up yet, but from what ive seen for me it maybe works the other way around. Depends on the girl but with many girls there isnt really a coonection at the start but it changes often if I make it a bit longer then shes more open to second date idea. Like 1.5 sitting in a bar and talking. Except thats starting to bore the hell out of me, so I need to replace that with something else soon.
Yohami breaks down the texts before a flake – Pancake Mouse 2017-11-12 07:59:25
[…] Mouse: I don’t drink. Also, for most girls nowadays I’m running Blackdragon’s two-date model, which involves a short, one-hour meetup over a drink (at night) or coffee (daytime), then […]
tkrk 2018-03-23 21:19:48
Hi Blackdragon. I have some questions regarding your 2 date system. Is it better for me as a young man (22 year old) to push for 1st date sex or should I wait until 2nd date? ( I know you started this stuff at age 35. All I want is your opinion on that) Also regarding the 2nd date. Do you just flat out text her to to come to your place? Do you offer her an “excuse” like “come at my place for a drink”? If she says no you schedule a date somewhere else (for coffee or drinks) and push for a 3rd date sex or you just next her?
FatalFake 2019-11-10 23:32:39
BD, Hi! I have some second date problems in your model When i'm trying to set up 2nd date at my place girls always give me shit, like — «i don't think so»,«it's too early», «i don't know you good enough». But same girls happily agree to 2nd date at the bar, then i pull them to my place and fuck them. Some girls agrees to go to my place after 40 minutes (sic!) first date. What could be wrong with my game? Btw i live in Russia