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What Is Sexual Assault, and What Is Not
A little while ago, a guy went to Kickstarter and tried to sell a book on seduction. This started a wave of anger from all over the internet, and Kickstarter pulled the guy's entry, vowing never to allow "seduction guides" ever again. This event exacerbated or reawakened a lot of the hatred people have towards "PUA", "pickup artists", "seduction community" and similar. Some of this spilled over to me. I almost never get hate mail (which still surprises me), but when this Kickstarter thing happened I actually started getting some, even though I had nothing to do with this event and don't personally know anyone involved.
-By Caleb Jones
If you are one of these people, this post is for you. I'm going to attempt to explain this stuff rationally, hopefully appeal to your more rational side, and have a measured, adult conversation about this. What Is Sexual Assault, and What Is Not One of the biggest challenges in this discussion is that people on both sides get emotional and mix up exactly what sexual assault is and is not.
One of the biggest things people pointed to in this particular seduction book was an excerpt where the author give the advice of pulling out your cock and putting a reluctant woman's hand on it without asking for permission. Before I go on, let me get this out of the way: I have never done anything like this in my entire life, and I have never advised anyone to do this. I think doing that would be a bad move and I would not recommend it.
Now we have to look at context. If a guy was walking down a crowded city street and he suddenly pulled his cock out, grabbed a random woman, and put her hand on it, is that sexual assault? Yes. That man is guilty of sexual assault. Throw his ass in jail.
Now let's say a man and woman are alone, in private, making out on a couch, and it's consensual for both. His hand is up her shirt and he's playing with her boobs, and she's letting him. Then he whips out his cock, grabs her hand without asking for permission, and puts her hand on it. Is that sexual assault?
No. That's sexual activity, not sexual assault. The action is completely within the context of everything else going on.
If you really think that circumstance is sexual assault, and that man is guilty of some kind of crime for which he must be punished by courts and cops, then you are not thinking rationally, and frankly, I don't even know if it's worth your time to keep reading this. Have a nice day. However I think 95% of normal people out there would agree this circumstance is not assault. Certainly we could have a debate about whether or not it's a good idea, or cheesy, or stupid, or creepy, or dominant, or smart, or sexy, or whatever, but most would agree it's not actually sexual assault.
The challenge arises when the circumstances are not as black and white as the above two examples. Let's say a man and a woman are sitting on a couch talking. He tries to kiss her, and she clearly resists. He tries again, and she clearly resists. So he whips out his pee-pee and shoves her hand on it without asking for permission. Is that sexual assault?
Some will say absolutely yes. Others will say absolutely not. I agree with points made on both sides. However I lean towards "yes". I said I lean towards yes; I don't think the guy should go to jail, but I do think he's crossing a line. Again, I wouldn't recommend a man do this in that circumstance. I do think it's a violation. More importantly, I think it's mis-calibrated game.
Therefore, if you have a problem with this specific kind of advice, you and I have no argument. I'm not a big fan of it either. "Leading" and "Aggressive Escalation" So far, we're in agreement. But now things get a little more complicated.
The next item people have a problem with is a much more general concept, and that is when PUA guys talk about "leading", "escalation", "hard escalation", "aggressive escalation", "pushing hard for sex", etc. When a guy recommends being "dominant" or doing things without "asking for permission", people launch into hysterics and immediately picture innocent women being thrown to the floor, their clothing being torn off as they kick and scream, and being brutally raped.
The problem is that's not what we're talking about here. I agree that some of of this Kickstarter's guy's advice is a little off. He talks about how you should "want" women to rebuff you, and how you should "want" to get "drinks thrown in your face". He recommends going to a bar and trying to get "rejected in the most hilarious fashion possible". Add all that to the hand-on-dick thing, and yes, I agree with you this particular advice is a little silly. Remember I said this particular advice. I have never read the book in question and I have no idea if there is other advice in the book I may agree with. There very well may be. I'm just talking about this particular advice.
Here's the deal though. Taken in a wider context, being dominant is something I recommend men do. A lot. No, I don't tell guys to put women's hands on their dicks if they're resisting them. But I do tell them to do things like (for example) touch a woman's arms, hands, and hair on a first date, and in a dominant, masculine way without asking for their permission. And I will continue to advise men to do this. Why? Because it's not sexual assault, and it works. Being sexually dominant does indeed turn (most) women on. So does getting touched. It's a fact of life.
Forcing a resisting woman to put her hand on your cock without her permission isn't cool and I would never do that. But gently reaching over and touching her hair on first date without asking for her permission is fantastic, and I do that all the time. See the difference? (Once again, if you don't see the difference between these two things, you simply aren't a rational thinker and there's probably no getting through to you.)
This brings up the issue of what to do if a woman rebuffs you. My advice to men has always been the following: If a woman rebuffs you in a very clear way, as in she says, "NO! Don't touch me!" I advise men to immediately but politely terminate the date and leave, and go find another woman. Trying to have sex with a woman who does not want to have sex with you is a massive waste of time, and men shouldn't do it. I have been telling men this for years and in many different ways.
However, if a woman rebuffs you in a very indirect or coy way, that's very different. If you are a woman, you are well aware that there are times you could be with a man who you want to kiss (or get even more sexual with) but you're just a little shy or uncomfortable at that moment. Again, this is how (most) women are. You don't have to like it, but those are the facts.
If a woman rebuffs a man coyly, indirectly, or gently, the advice I have given, and will continue to give, is to back off, wait a few minutes, then try again in a very dominant way. A man should try that one or two more times. Notice I said one or two more times. That's it. After about the third time, it's game over. That guy needs to wrap up the date and go find a different woman. Again, I have been saying this to men for years. I do not believe in, or condone, repeatedly pestering a woman to get sexual with you who does not want to get sexual with you. It's a pain in the ass, a waste of time, it damages your self esteem, increases scarcity mentality, and shows outcome dependence, all of which is bad for a man. Politely end the date and go find another woman who is more willing. Very simple.
Therefore, given the three limitations of:
Touching or escalating on a woman but not doing it in a way that would be sexually assaulting her (i.e. gently touching her hand or hair without permission is okay, putting her hand on your dick without her permission is not). Immediately stopping and leaving her if she clearly rejects. Immediately stopping if she coyly or indirectly rejects two or three times in a row.
...then being dominant and pushing for sex is a good thing and men should do it.
Otherwise, your advice to men wanting sex (which is pretty much all men) is to meekly ask a woman "can I touch your hair?", "can I kiss you now?", "can I take your bra off now?", "okay good, can I take your panties off now?". Or perhaps to sit there like a bump on a log, never touch her, never ask her, and wait until the woman leaps at him and starts tearing his clothes off.
I realize this kind of thing happens on modern-day TV shows and in Hollywood romantic comedies, but does it work in the real world? You and I both know the answer.
Being dominant is good, and pushing for sex is good, as long as one does it in a way that doesn't violate boundaries.
Misuse of the Word "Rape"
Now we need to discuss the language people use when they discuss these topics. Sadly, there is a conscious attempt to bend the meaning of certain words in childish attempts to attack others. I see this happen most often with the word "rape", and variations of it.
Rape is sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will of (usually) the female. Rape can also mean having sex with someone who cannot consent, like a girl who is passed out drunk on the couch. That's what rape means. It doesn't mean anything else. A guy forcibly putting a woman's hand on his cock is not rape. It might be sexual assault, depending on the context we just discussed, but it's not rape. Repeatedly trying to kiss a girl who does not want to be kissed is not rape. Talking a girl into taking her shirt off is not rape. These things are not rape. They might be sexual assaults, they might be horrible, you may not like them, I may not like them, but they are not rape.
If you hate PUA or pickup artists or seducers, that's fine. You're more than welcome to your opinion and frankly, I completely agree that there are indeed a lot of guys in the PUA community who are very creepy and espouse very creepy, sketchy, even illegal advice.
But when you run around screaming like a maniac about "rape" and "rapists" and "rape guides" and "rape manuals" and "rape handbooks" and "rape apologists", you make yourself look very, very stupid. None of these things are rape, and you know it. It detracts from your argument, makes people dismiss you at best and dislike you at worst, and turns the rational, thinking people (like me) who might otherwise agree with you away from the entire discussion.
This Kickstarter guy in no way gave instructions on how to rape a woman. I'm sorry, but he didn't. He gave one or two pieces of odd advice, but he was not advocating rape. Yet almost every web site I read attacking him was calling his book a "rape manual" or "rape guide". Doing this is childish, stupid, and deceptive. It detracts from the very argument you're trying to make.
If you want to criticize dating advice and/or those who give it, please do. But do it like an adult, who knows how to speak the English language and understands what words mean. If you want to say that putting a woman's hand on a man's cock without permission is sexual assault, okay, let's discuss that. You might have a point. But if you want to say it's rape, then the conversation is over. I can't have a rational discussion with someone who doesn't know how to speak basic English and/or refuses to control their emotions well enough to do so.
Here's where things get even more interesting. Some haters of men who teach dating advice are a little smarter than the usual hysterical fanatic who types first and thinks later. These people do indeed realize that if they call a guy trying to kiss a girl "rape", they're going to look stupid and get dismissed by others. So these folks have cleverly come up with a way to call a thing "rape" without actually calling it "rape". Enter the new politically correct term, "rape culture", a term created by feminists in academia.
When this Kickstarter guy put up his book, these people didn't scream "rape!" like the others. Instead they said he was "contributing to rape culture". What is "rape culture"? Wikipedia says things like "practices that normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape" and "examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape."
In other words, unlike the with word "rape", there is no specific definition of specific actions that construe "rape culture". And that's the point. If you were to write a book called "How To Forcibly Have Sex With A Woman Against Her Will", then yes, I would agree that's "rape culture". But that's not what's happening.
Because the definition of "rape culture" is so broad, people toss it around like a battle axe and apply it to damn near anything they want. If you watch how the term is used, rape culture has come to mean "anything whatsoever remotely sexual that I don't like". Try to kiss a girl on a second date? That's "rape culture"! Go to a strip club? That's "rape culture"! Jerk off alone in the privacy of your own home and fantasize about one of your female friends? OMG. Rape culture!
The term has been thrown around so much, to describe so many things that have nothing whatsoever to do with rape, that it has become meaningless. It's gotten so bad that today I see people tossing around the term "rape culture" and I just roll my eyes. As I just demonstrated, we're not even talking about rape, so how could we be talking about a rape "culture"?
But that's my opinion, and opinions can be argued with. There's an even bigger reason it's meaningless due to facts, and facts can't be argued with. Ready for this?
Rape in the United States has gone down by 64% in the last 15 years, and over 85% since the 1970s.
That's right. 85% drop in rape in my lifetime. As a matter of fact, rape peaked in 1979, which was 34 years ago. Don't believe me? Read this, this, and this. Even the Huffington Post had to admit it.
Because people know the cops can use DNA evidence to catch you, and because of demonization of rapists in pop culture (which I support), and a few other factors, there is less rape now than ever before in modern history, perhaps in all of human history. THIS is "rape culture"?
Please. If we were currently experiencing an increase in rapes, then I would buy your "rape culture" stuff. But an 85% decrease? Uh, no. Of course any rape is bad, but an 85% decrease in a thing does not mean the thing is more prevalent in society. So stop pretending that it is, and again, stop trying to assign the word "rape" to things that are not rape.
When I see something that makes me upset, and I attack it (which I have many times on this blog and other places online), I make very sure to use facts instead of emotions to make my point. I make sure to point at all the facts and stats that bolster my point. I make sure to use dictionary definitions of words and don't try to bend the use of these words to my own internal, emotional, incorrect definitions. (And on the rare occasions I absolutely have to bend a definition of a word, I only do it slightly, and more importantly I am very clear and up-front about the fact I'm changing the definition within the context of the discussion. But frankly, I avoid doing even this. It causes too much confusion.)
I'm human of course and I do make mistakes like anyone else, but I do take the time to get my factual ducks in a row. Then I make a measured, factual, rational argument.
What I don't do is blow my stack, lose my cool, scream my head off, emotionally lash out, say things that make no sense, make wild assumptions, assume the absolute worst interpretations of things, or purposely apply incorrect meanings to clearly defined English words in order to bash others.
Like I said, I agree with many of you on many of your points. It's a shame too many of you can't, or won't, articulate them honestly.
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Lee 2013-06-30 06:23:46
I was trolled off a forum by gameless AFC's and angry women because I "dared" to mention that I was into PUA. I tried to tell them that it was merely dating advice for men [surely no bad thing], but it was just their issues finding something to hate and I simply moved on.
maldek 2013-06-30 07:36:39
"That's right. 85% drop in rape in my lifetime. " This is further support to the argument that the "rape culture" so often used by feminist is indeed the subconscious wish to be taken by a dominant man. Even if it happens in a real rape. Or in other words: These manjaws miss beeing fucked hard so they shit-test and provoke the world with their non-existing (but secretly longed for) so called "rape-culture", all in the hopes to get the right kind of attention and provoke a reaction they so desperatly need.
Bhodi 2013-06-30 08:58:00
I have been in law enforcement for over twenty years. The majority of sexual assault reports I have investigated have been false either women who feel guilty over cheating on their boyfriend...gotten pregnant..or transmitted a STD...and that's the truth.The sad fact fact of the matter is most police departments don't charge the accusers with the false report of a crime...That's a fact that should be addressed
lifeofalovergirl 2013-06-30 09:51:46
I see an awful lot of "pua's" online trivializing rape and accusing women of making it up all the time, which is an issue in and of itself. Rape does occur, it is very real and the majority of times it isn't even reported because the victims fear attitudes like these. When a woman has actually been raped she has to worry about her claims being treated as lies, Mr. Bhodi, so a good portion of the people who actually have the guts to report "rape" are probably those who didn't actually experience it and aren't suffering from the shame and fear. I've been raped. I've been raped at gunpoint, I've been gang raped and I've been raped by a complete stranger as well as one scenario where someone I'd been willingly having sex with forced me to have sex with him through threats and blackmail. I was violently ill with the stomach flu and on my period and didn't want to sleep with him and what followed was one of the most awful sexual experiences of my life. Were any of these reported? No. Why not? Because there was too much shame and fear involved and the idea of going to court and reliving those experiences and having all kinds of people tear me apart and act as though I were lying was just not something I was willing to go through. That happens A LOT and real rapes are vastly underreported. I've heard all kinds of stories from women besides myself. So no one is going to be able to tell ME that rape doesn't exist in 2013 in the numbers they report. I believe it's probably WAY more than that. In any case as far as Blackdragon's post here, I agree. If you are socially calibrated and not PUSHING women then you shouldn't be getting accusations of rape. The problem isn't the PUA material it's that there are men who just don't understand it and misinterpret. They start getting pushy and ignore the advice about being outcome independent. As a woman, I LIKE it when a guy goes for what he wants and doesn't ASK me "can I touch you" and crap like that. It's lame. However if I ask him to stop and he doesn't or starts pushing when I'm sending him signs of disinterest then I DON'T like that. The real issue is learning to understand her cues. If she's turning her head away when you try to kiss her or moving away when you are trying to touch her or pulling her hand back when you pull it towards your cock, then quit. If you start to pull up her shirt and she pulls it back down, then leave it alone. If you move your hands toward her pussy and she is pushing it off, then quit. Yes, I like a man dominant in the bedroom but I am not going to actively resist anything he does if I actually want it. I'm going to submit to him. If she's not submitting she doesn't want to be dominated. Now, obviously if you all have some kind of BDSM arrangement and you are already in a relationship things change but if she is resisting you the first time you are trying to have sex, then I would just quit and move on unless she actively tries to get more from you on her own.
Socialkenny the black Cassanova 2013-06-30 10:10:22
Damn that's messed up. Frankly, I don't even know what Kickstarters was. By the way BD, is there a link to this Kickstarters thing that you can post?
Socialkenny 2013-06-30 10:18:43
As the lovergirl chick said, it isn't the material but the guys who use the material. I mean, and this is all coupled with the fact that I personally believe that over 70% of reported rape cases weren't rape actually, but misunderstandings.
Jon 2013-06-30 11:16:30
In college I was very involved in a group that put on sexual assault education programs on campus and fundraisers to buy rape kits for the local hospital. The programs I think were most valuable were focused on how to respond if a woman tells you she was raped in order to reduce the shame and fear that LG mentioned and to let women know what resources are available if they need help. I'm embarrassed to say that a lot of the other stuff was idealized B.S. about explicit consent that doesn't work in the real world and pretty much guarantees that sex won't happen at all (sort of like they present in this video: It's taken a lot of work to deprogram myself from a belief system that basically says all sex is bad and something that men do to women and the main reason I'm involved in the seduction community at all is to learn how to relate to women the way they would actually want me to. It has nothing to do with forcing women to have sex, and everything to do with becoming the kind of guy women want to sleep with and creating situations where they can feel good about doing so.
HungryWolfe 2013-06-30 15:21:22
It's unfortunate but true that rape is under reported but its also unfortunate that false rape charges are more common then we would like to admit. As a man, I can't say that rape would effect me the same as it does a woman but I could also never trivialize such an act. To do so is disgusting. Even though rape might not be able to effect me the same as a woman, one thing a woman might never experience the same way as man is a false rape accusation. For a man the fear is real and so are the consequences. What would it take to ruin your life, a disgruntled girlfriend or a regretful one night stand? A recent case of a life left in ruins from a false rape allegation is Brian Banks. Another recent case was the lacrosse players from Duke university. In both cases they can be considered to be lucky(a term used loosely in these cases) that the truth of their innocence were found but how about the other men who are sitting in prison who were falsely accused. It's unfortunate but those men will never have a voice. Bhodi is correct in that false accusers will never be charged for false rape accusations due to the fear that this will detract other false accusers from coming forward. In both cases of the Brian Banks and Duke lacrosse cases both women were never charged for their false rape allegations even though the effects of the allegations will follow these men for the rest of their lives. I'm not here to argue who has it worse men or women, both rape and rape accusations are horrible acts that can affect someone for the rest of their lives. But women have the opportunity to stand against their rapist and the possibility to bring them to justice but men will not have the opportunity to stand against their false rape accuser. I guess I don't know what point I'm trying to make except that man or woman just be careful out there. I'm not saying that rape or rape accusations can be prevented but that doesn't mean one shouldn't take precautions. Be aware of your surroundings, the situation and the company you keep and if screening will help screen the crazies away then do whatever it takes to protect oneself. @Socialkenny the black Cassanova They removed the kickstarter from the site but if your curious here are the posts from the writer on reddit. http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/11ng7n/above_the_game_intro_my_story_preview_of_my/ Blackdragon, I tried to find your stance on posting outside links and couldn't find any so I apologize in advance if posting outside links is not acceptable on your blog. If it is not acceptable feel free to remove the link I have posted.
Captain Caveman 2013-06-30 20:57:38
Excellent post BD, and one I think the seduction community sorely needs. The topic of rape kind of just comes up on an ad-hoc basis, and I think the community should be discussing it more proactively rather than just chastising the occasional rapey PUA and defending ourselves from criticism like this book generated. I've seen tons and tons of people mistake aggressive game for sexual assault, and it bothers me. When a teacher says something like "make the woman say no," I've always heard the implication that you need to listen when she does say no, but I guess that passes over people's heads. Given that the community contains not only some bad people, but also just a lot of dorks who are still learning empathy and don't really understand women, I think some clear guidelines are in order; we can't just say "no means no" and assume that covers everything, especially for the newbies, and especially with some of the poorly written advice advocating aggressive game. Lovergirl, you're right, there are some guys in the community who trivialize rape, and the community needs to be doing more to either teach them the error of their ways, or just ostracize them altogether. In that vein, Maldek, go die in a fire. I don't know how you can think rape isn't even a real thing, but And Bhodi, I know false accusations are a major problem with sexual assaults, but the idea that a majority of reports turn out to be false just beggars belief, for me at least. Can you cite any sources other than your personal experience? Because the best stats I've seen say the false accusation rate for rape is somewhere around 8%, which is four times the average for violent crimes, but a hell of a lot less than a majority. Jon, that's a very healthy attitude you have, and I agree on the anti-rape advice- too much of it asks for a totally unrealistic degree of explicitness and permission-asking from both parties, and ask men to ask permission in ways that just turn women off. What would be better is teaching men a way of getting laid that's effective while also being empathetic and never violating consent. Which is what good pickup advice does, but the community needs to do more to eliminate the bad advice so the good stuff can rise to the top.
bhodi1555 2013-07-01 05:57:53
Dang Lovergirl if you been raped 4 times I think I would carry a pistol...I've worked true rapes....There's a big difference is the demeanor of the victim.. The fact of the matter is this the FBI crime reporting stats..paints a pretty clear picture...The fact that you say rape is under reported the facts just don't indicate it. Don't get me wrong rape is a heinous crime..But its not under reported.. Pull the crime stats in your area and you will see.
0--- 2013-07-01 07:18:47
Excellent as usual. Finally some structured, clearly lined out thoughts from a cool mind on the topic. Thanks for providing a go-to link for any potential future "rape culture" debates I might end up in.
P-Coq 2013-07-01 08:15:41
Excellent read BD. The only issue I have, as LoverGirl pointed out, is the stats. Most rapes/molestation cases do go unreported for one reason or another, usually for the same reasons that LoverGirl pointed out. Based on the women I've been with, around 1/3 women have been raped or gone through some kind of severe case of sexual harassment. They often times do not know what to do, and frankly the people they trusted usually do not know what to do, short of calling the authorities, which brings a lot of unwanted attention for her. It's one of the darker areas of society few are actually aware of unless they've experienced it or personally know someone who has. Reported rapes do not reflect what goes on in society. But, as a whole, if the number of cases that are reported decreases, it suggests an overall decrease altogether, assuming most rapes went unreported in the 70s and 80s as well. With that said, the whole "rape culture pua promotes" is ridiculous. Most of these women have no idea what they're talking about.
lifeofalovergirl 2013-07-01 09:55:51
@Bhodi- crime stats don't mean anything when it comes to rapes that aren't reported. You are even implying that I am not telling the truth but the sad fact is I am. You're attitude is part of what I am talking about, that discourages REAL rapes from being reported. I was a teenager when those things happened and not as able to stand up for myself as I would be now but that doesn't mean something could never happen again. I think younger women tend to be more at risk because they don't make the smartest choices and they are also less likely to report things due to fear of social implications and maybe the reactions of their parents or being somewhere they feel they weren't "supposed" to be when it happened. As for your comments about how women react after a "real" rape, that is again an unfair judgment. You can't decide if a woman was raped or not based on her demeanor. After being raped at gunpoint, which was terrifying, by a college basketball player when I was in high school, I was shook up but I didn't cry or show any sign of distress to anyone else. I left and walked over to someone's house and ate and talked like nothing had happened and never told anyone. I still haven't told anyone I know, only mentioned it online, like here. My mind has actually blocked out a lot of the details because all I could focus on the whole time was the fact that there was a gun pointed at my head. Sometimes, when something is bad enough, people disassociate and block things out, as is the case with Post Traumatic Stress.
lifeofalovergirl 2013-07-01 10:10:27
I'm also leery of stats regarding false accusations because sometimes the accusation wasn't really false, the victim detracted her claims because she didn't want to deal with being put on the stand and questioned and reliving the event and having all kinds of people accuse her of lying when something traumatic happened to her. I don't believe false accusations are near as common as the men in the PUA community like to believe. I can see how, as men, that would be a fear but I really don't think it's that hard to keep yourself from getting false accusations against you. Just don't be PUSHY. Make sure she is responding well to whatever you are doing before moving to the next step. If she seems to feel uncomfortable and keeps rejecting your advances, then let it go. If she is really interested then she will engage you again somehow if you stop trying. Learn to pay attention to body language and nonverbal communication. That is something that women tend to be more adept at and use more frequently than men. It always helps to pick up on social cues. If she seems SCARED then don't keep going or comment that she seems scared and if she isn't she will tell you so. If she is shying away from your advances just outright ask her if you are making her uncomfortable. If you aren't sure then it doesn't hurt to cover your bases.
lifeofalovergirl 2013-07-01 10:15:02
Actually, I think that is a key phrase to use and I have had guys say it to me. "Am I making you uncomfortable?" If she says no, then bang on and if she in any way indicates that you are, then STOP. It covers you from allegations because you asked but you didn't say "can I touch you here?" and sound like a wuss. It comes across as more dominant because you know that you are a sexual "threat" in a good way but are making it clear that you aren't trying to hurt anyone. Also, she knows that she has in some way given permission for you to continue.
Tom 2013-07-01 13:40:00
False rape accusations are quite common: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape In addition comes those cases that are "unfounded" meaning those where the woman did not lie but what she describes happened was not actually illegal. When you look at the research on false allegations there is not too much evidence supporting that you can reduce the odds that much by not being pushy. THe motives given are mostly stuff like revenge because he did not want more than sex, she regrets the sex and feels shame and wants to lump it over on him, to cover up infidelity, mentally unstable women that want attention etc. THe best prevention seems to be to stay away from unstable and evil women and to be careful with bedding taken women.
lifeofalovergirl 2013-07-01 13:50:34
@Tom- go back and read the article you linked to. It states, repeatedly, that many of the supposedly "false" rape accusations were actually "unfounded" cases and may or may not have been false. It does not say that unfounded cases are "in addition" to false accusations.
Rose 2013-07-01 14:05:26
I would like a link regarding 70% of rape cases being "misunderstandings" because, frankly, that sounds like bs. Sex is either consensual or it isn't. How could that be misunderstood? And I disagree that the answer is to stay away from "bad" women. The answer is for men not to rape. Giving dating advice to men/women is definitely NOT rape culture. It's sad to me that this has to be an issue.
Alejandro 2013-07-02 06:13:26
Unfortunately, it is not as easy as "sex can be consensual or not", Rose. For example, most people will agree that having sex with a passed out girl is rape. But what about a girl who is simply drunk? Is it rape if I have sex with her because she wass intoxicated at the moment? In some cases, the law may consider a very drunk person to be unable to consent. And what if she just had a few drinks? Is it rape too? Where do you draw the line? Is not that easy.
Rose 2013-07-02 08:19:36
Personally, Alejandro, I don't think sex with a drunk person is rape. To me, rape is forcible sex, meaning the girl says no and you hold her down and take it against her will, or sex with an underage or unconscious person. I have had sex while drunk, had sex with a guy who turned out to be a dick, and had sex I regretted. None of these were rape because, obviously, I had consented.
Rose 2013-07-02 08:23:14
Also, I think to get someone drunk just to fuck them is an asshole move. Not saying you do this, but some men do. But acting like an asshole does not make one a rapist.
skills 2013-07-02 10:32:40
While making out and sucking tits, i wank and grab her hand and put it on my dick. Usually after i do that they jerk me off and give me a bj, i do this in the car. Also when i am dancing i grab the hand and put it on my dick. Whoever says that shit is rape, need mental assistance. As always, people can not relate and think is something taboo/rape, but is because they are looking at it out of context. By the way the technique works, field test it guys.
lifeofalovergirl 2013-07-02 13:13:33
Getting someone drunk or sleeping with them when they are extremely drunk is iffy. If you are trying to avoid false accusations, I'd avoid it. Sleeping with someone when they are drunk doesn't necessarily constitute rape but it could be if they are so intoxicated they can't function properly. Obviously, if you've spiked their drink with a date rape drug or something you can be held liable. I'm thinking of one time when I was at a three day music festival and drunk and high off my ass and somehow landed in a tent with some guys that were trying to offer me more drugs. I know I was telling them no to that but somehow ended up on the floor with a guy fingering me and I was so far gone I couldn't even see what he looked like. I was trying to look at his face and it was too blurry and I think he was older and creepy but I really don't know for sure. I can't tell you if I was saying no or not because I was so far gone I didn't really know what the hell was happening. What kept me from having sex with him was a girlfriend of mine, who was less high, walking in and telling him off and threatening him and pulling me away. I'm sure she figured he wasn't someone I wanted to have sex with and she was probably right.
Blackdragon 2013-07-02 13:15:46
Regarding real rape cases going under-reported- The reasons some women never report real cases of rape are the exact same reasons women are uncomfortable having sex on a first or second date. Those reasons are ASD, slut shaming, and an outdated, conservative, puritanical outlook on sex and sexual matters. In a sexually relaxed culture, women would have far less trepidation reporting a real case of rape, because they would feel much less shame in doing so. But in a slut-shamy, Disney, quasi-religious, ASDish culture, such women are concerned they will be judged, or viewed as somehow damaged (“no man will want me now”), embarrassed, etc. Society vastly underestimates the damage it does to itself by being uptight about sexual matters.
lifeofalovergirl 2013-07-02 13:33:28
Oh, I agree with that BD. I think that women would be a lot less afraid to testify if they didn't have to fear their character being torn apart and their reputation ruined because other sexual activities they may have participated in may be brought to light during a trial. Or have to fear those things even MATTERING to anyone because it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they were raped that particular time. I don't even think discussions regarding their sexual activities outside of the incident should be allowed in court.
Will D. Hoffman 2013-07-10 09:08:19
There have been various justifications historically for the "marital exemption", that is, a rule, statutory and/or in common law/case law, which precluded the prosecution of husbands for rape. In English common law , this was based on the idea of implied consent : when a woman was married she was deemed to be consenting to lifelong sexual intercourse with her husband, as such, if there was consent, there was no rape. Under Roman Dutch law , a wife was subjected to the marital power of her husband. A husband had a right to sexual intercourse with his wife, his status afforded to him by the marital power gave him the right to use "moderate chastisement" to force his wife into performing marital duties - sex was a marital duty, and, as such, he could force her into doing it, this was not rape.
Mandi 2016-05-06 12:13:51
My friend had gone out, her husband had called me saying that he was having a panic attack and he took one of his wife's Valium. He asked me to swear on my Mom's soul that I wouldn't tell his wife because she would get angry for him taking a pill. He asked if I could go to their apartment just until he felt better. My gut told me , that this didn't sound right because I knew she gave him a pill before to help him. Well, I went , I yelled his name, he said he would be right out, he was taking a shower, I yelled back and said that I would stand in the kitchen until he was done (thinking he was going to be dressed ), he came out in a towel, hepreceded to thank me, then he cane very close to me, he grabbed my hand and asked me to touch his penis, I oaniked, picked my cell phone to my hear, he got extremely nervous asking what I was doing, I screamed saying that I was calling my son and the police , he said oh no, you can just leave, I left so fast, I was so upset that I couldn't breathe. My question is, can this man be charged with what he did to me. I still have nightmares and disgust for this man. Do I leave it alone, stay away and just deal with it through therapy. Thank-you for any advice
Blackdragon 2016-05-06 12:37:23
I'm not qualified to answer that question. You should consult a local attorney if you wish to pursue this.
Jack Outside the Box 2016-05-06 23:06:00
My question is, can this man be charged with what he did to me.The only crime he committed was physically grabbing your hand against your will. Unwanted physical contact is a crime (in this case, a misdemeanor). But since he didn't even put your hand on his penis, but merely asked you to do it - which he can legally ask (with you refusing) - he'd probably just end up paying a 100 dollar fine or something, even assuming you can prove that he physically grabbed you(which you can't). So no, there's nothing you can do. Seriously, what do you want to charge him with? Unwanted physical contact? Do you have any bruises? Prove it! You're talking about a Class A misdemeanor!
I was so upset that I couldn’t breathe.Over a Class A misdemeanor??? Have you ever been diagnosed with a mental illness? I'm asking because this level of damseling in distress is not normal.
I still have nightmares and disgustFacepalm! Vietnam soldiers still have nightmares about getting their legs blown off! If you are this fragile just because some gameless idiot wanted to have sex with you, I have to wonder how you ever graduated from pre-school. The adult world will destroy you if you are this sensitive.
Do I leave it alone,Are you an adult?
deal with it through therapyYou do need therapy. But not for this. You need therapy because you have a toddler's reactions to adult situations. And damseling like this, over something this minor, makes all women look weak and bad. You're helping misogynists make their arguments. For that, you need therapy, yes.
bill 2016-08-01 17:36:24
Feminists hate PUA's, but they dont ever do the approaching..they want men to be at their mercy..come approach me so i can willfully dismiss you or reject you. PUA's make a game out of it Become good at it..and they hate that becouse it takes the power out of there hands.
Joelsuf 2016-09-14 21:29:54
Feminists hate PUA’s, but they dont ever do the approachingBuddy. You have no idea, and I mean no IDEA how wrong you are. Both groups have been working with each other since the 2010s began to line their pockets with gold off of the sexually frustrated. Sexually frustrated boys go to PUAs and bitch about feminists. Sexually frustrated chicks go to feminists and bitch about PUAs. But the authorities and instructors of PUA and Feminist philosophies? What they do behind closed doors would cause both groups to implode. They fuck each other and its pretty obvious. And I'm GLAD feminists don't approach me lol. Me and one were actually having an argument about catcalling earlier this year after a class I had. She was like "I consider any dude who approaches me a catcaller." And I was like "so when you approached me, can I accuse you of catcalling based on your concept of it?" And she just giggled cuz she didn't have an answer. Then I got the fuck out of dodge lol. If you are talking about chicks in general, so what? Dudes do the hunting when it comes to relationships. Its been that way for millennia and its how things naturally are. Don't fuck with nature. When a chick approaches me its a nice bonus, but I don't expect it. And if they do I expect them to be either a shemale or a ratchet. Bitching about chicks not approaching you is feminine behavior. If someone bitches about chicks not approaching them (or chicks in general really) it usually means they are a closet homosexual.
The False “Rape Culture”Not too sure its false, but its definitely not as widespread as most feminist succubi would like to believe. And its also up for interpretation. I believe that there is a rape culture, but I define it as a culture that believes that rape is ONLY a chicks issue and that dudes can't be raped ever. If rape culture is affecting anyone, its affecting more dudes than chicks. tbh the feminist succubi are just really protecting their own kind and saying that if you are a dude and can't fuck a chick right, then you run the risk of getting a rape charge. Fine by me: Getting a chick aroused gets me aroused anyways. I just think they don't want creeps or fuckboys touching them. And that makes sense, I wouldn't want any drugged out ratchets or chicks who weigh over 300 lbs trying to have sex with me so I understand their position. They are sick of getting shitty sex from weirdos and fuckboys who think its cool to stick their hands in an unconscious chick's vagina, so when they say "rape culture" they are pretty much trying to scare away any dude who thinks they can get away with not fucking them well. Like I said, the topic of rape is more a male issue than a female one. Just as many (if not more) dudes get raped than chicks, and even more of it is unreported and most of it happens during childhood. Dudes STILL can't go to support groups for being sexual assault victims. ALSO dudes have to deal false rape accusations as well. Chicks don't face these issues ever. If I got drugged and raped by a 300 lb chick, the courts will say "oh whatever, so you got a bad lay, get over it!" To me that is rape culture: The fact that dudes can't get as much help for something that affects them more than it will affect any woman. Feel free to call me a raging MRA on this topic, but it hits VERY close to home.
Ana 2016-11-07 07:46:13
@Mandy, yes you can definitely report it, if you haven't by now please don't hesitate to do so, there's still time. And you do have evidence if he denies the whole thing - a log of the call he made to you, whoever you told about it afterwards can also testify confirming that and I'm guessing (sorry to be graphic) that you got a good look at his penis and can give a description. My stepfather was convicted of rape under similar circumstances. This would definitely be classed as sexual assault, possibly attempted rape. This married man called you, a friend of his wife's, to his home (while his wife was absent) under completely false pretences, grabbed you while nude (that's indecent exposure) told you touch him and even after you screamed told you "you can't just leave". Of course he can be charged. He was clearly planning it in advance, he may well have prior charges or done something similar to other women who didn't report it, if you hadn't reacted as quickly as you did you would very likely been raped. It probably wasn't his first and may not be his last time - this is why it's so useful to report these things.
Kell 2018-01-21 09:54:41
I'd like to add to this article that a nonverbal rejection is worse or on par with nonverbal sexual escalation. I understand being unsure in how to deescalate a situation or to say no, but you HAVE to do it. Media has been pairing men who do continue sexual dominance after a firm NO- which IS wrong, that IS sexual assault- with men who, if given the option from the verbal NO, would completely comply and stop. Those men are not assaulters, they are not rapist, and you know what-- I would even go as far as to say that they are victim to a womens' silence. Because:: Later in life, after everything has happened, she comes out with a #metoo with an implication that it was with a guy of whom she didn't voice her nonconsent to, then he- as a nonrapist, nonaggressor, and could be a genuinely good person-- would feel DEVASTATED that they are now ~seemingly~ part of the problem and that they have caused this kind of hurt to someone. If his name was outed, people would correlate him as an sexual assaulter and that ruins relationships and reputations. When in reality, he did not consent to having sex with a nonconsenting person. He was not made aware and yet he is blamed. Some would say that a woman "had no way of getting out of the situation", like they couldn't leave. 99.9% of the time that's a damn lie. Unless he is holding you hostage, you have every ability to leave. Whatever may need to be left behind, you should leave it or pay for your own cab/uber over feeling like you have gotten rape or assaulted forever after. I voiced this to a friend and he said "Well, your a strong woman. Other girls may have trouble with voicing themselves to a bigger man". But again, is this really the man's fault? Does that make him aggressive, or does that mean a girl may need to assert herself. This isn't trying to revert back to the old sex education practices where we tell girls to say no over guys to listen. But apparently we need to revisit those practices because girls are not learning to say NO for guys to listen to.
Jack Outside the Box 2018-01-21 12:56:24
Political correctness detected. Initiating red pill countermeasures now:
@Mandy, yes you can definitely report it, if you haven’t by now please don’t hesitate to do soNo, she can't.
there’s still time.No there isn't. The statute of limitations on such a minor misdemeanor would have run out by now.
And you do have evidence if he denies the whole thing – a log of the call he made to you, whoever you told about it afterwards can also testify confirming that and I’m guessing (sorry to be graphic) that you got a good look at his penis and can give a description.But where's the crime?
My stepfather was convicted of rape under similar circumstances.I'm assuming your step father actually raped someone though. Huge difference.
This would definitely be classed as sexual assault,Wherever you went to law school, sue it and get your money back. Grabbing someone's hand is not sexual assault.
possibly attempted rape.LOL! Where did you get your law degree? Women's Studies? I got mine from an actual law school. He said, "you can just leave." There was no attempted force of any kind.
This married man called you, a friend of his wife’s,His marital status is not legally relevant.
to his home (while his wife was absent)Not legally relevant.
under completely false pretences,Not a crime.
grabbed you while nudeMinor misdemeanor.
(that’s indecent exposure)False! Laws against indecent exposure apply only to public places. This was his home. He may expose his penis to his heart's content. And you can do exactly zero about it. Don't like it? Learn how to work a door knob, strong woman.
told you touch himNot a crime.
and even after you screamed told you “you can’t just leave”.False. He said, "you CAN just leave." Can't you read? Or are you only filtering what you're reading from your garbage man-hating degree from Dyke University at California?
Of course he can be charged.With what?
He was clearly planning it in advance,Not a crime.
he may well have prior charges or done something similar to other women who didn’t report it,Speculation. Assumes facts not in evidence.
if you hadn’t reacted as quickly as you did you would very likely been raped.Pure hysteria. And speculation. And anti-male bigotry. Evidence? I call for a psychiatric evaluation of this witness. I also call for a mistrial.
It probably wasn’t his first and may not be his last timeObjection. Assumes facts not in evidence. I call for a 24 hour commitment to a mental institution of this witness, pending a full psychiatric panel. She is clearly hysterical and prejudiced against men. I believe she might try to hurt herself or others.
this is why it’s so useful to report these things.No, this is why it's useful to exercise some commonsense and practice some fucking discernment, instead of acting upon your clearly deranged hysteria, brought on by Women's Studies. The more women "report" garbage like this, the more you show yourselves to be everything misogynists say you are - weak damsels in distress who need strong men with badges to arrest other men for the crime of making you cry. Pathetic.
Johnny 2018-08-13 09:17:27
Domineering or charismatic guys who are good at manipulating people, who pressure/manipulate unconfident girls, or girls with low self-esteem, into sex, are immoral people. PUA who do this are no different. It's preying on people who are vulnerable. I know 2 women - entirely unconnected - who have had sex with guys in these circumstances and it wasn't good for them.