Get Free Email Updates!
Join us for FREE to get instant email updates!
I have said before that men taking dating advice from women is a fool's errand, and that you're not going to get real-world accurate information if you do this. However there are still times when getting a woman's perspective is a worthwhile thing, especially if a woman is very experienced and attractive, and has a true set of experiences to draw conclusions from.
-By Caleb Jones
I recently came across a woman's profile on OKCupid that struck me as not only different, but very telling as to what women want, and what men do wrong online. I messaged her and told her I wanted to profile her profile (alliteration intended!) here at the blog. (She lives several thousand miles away from me which would disqualify her from me actually hitting her up, since I still have my 45-minute distance rule.)
She responded positively and we struck up a little conversation about her online dating experiences, of which she had many. We'll call her "Maria". Maria is in her early 20s, has done some modeling, and is what most men would consider a 9 or a 10 in looks. This means that a hell of a lot of guys are going to be clicking on her thumbnail, drooling over her photos (many of which were professionally taken) and sending her messages.
All of this is a factor in what we're about to discuss, because while all women are usually the "choosers" online, the really attractive women are even more so. These women can expect men to jump through hoops in order to impress them. Not all attractive women will do this of course, but the point here is that the more attractive a woman is, the more easily she can do this and still get dates.
In reading through Maria's creative profile, it made me think on whether or not she would have bothered to write it that way if she was a 4 rather than a 9 or 10. (That actually would be an interesting topic...how would a woman who was a 4 or 5 in looks construct her profile for maximum dates? But I digress.) Before I go on, here is Maria's entire profile, edited only for anonymity.
First off, my name is xxxxxx. In order to make things fun, I’ve created this short quiz for you to see if you qualify as a good match. If you dare, send your score in a message 😉
Name_____
Age_____
Career ________
If you look at my pictures then send me a message -20 points
If you look at my pictures, read my profile, then send me a message. +20 points
If you use full sentences, grammar, and punctuation. +10 points
If you possess the ability to hold a conversation and go a little outside of the "how is your day?, what are you up to?, etc." +10 points
Copy/pasting me the same message you sent to the last 10 girls. -15 points
Calling me beautiful, pretty, mami, sexy, gorgeous, or anything mildly referring to my looks. -15 points
Giving me your number. -50 points
Asking me for my number. +10 points
Asking me for my number without a couple days of online conversation -20 points
Less than 4 photos -20 points
No clear photos of body, face, or eyes -10 points
Photo of you in sunglasses -15 points
Less than one paragraph about yourself in your profile. -20 points
Looking for “new friends” -45 points
Looking for a serious relationship +50 points
Can remember my name +25 points
Scrolled back up to reread my name +5 points
Scrolled back down to see if you completed the test +5 points
Thanks for reading! 😀
She responded positively and we struck up a little conversation about her online dating experiences, of which she had many. We'll call her "Maria". Maria is in her early 20s, has done some modeling, and is what most men would consider a 9 or a 10 in looks. This means that a hell of a lot of guys are going to be clicking on her thumbnail, drooling over her photos (many of which were professionally taken) and sending her messages.
All of this is a factor in what we're about to discuss, because while all women are usually the "choosers" online, the really attractive women are even more so. These women can expect men to jump through hoops in order to impress them. Not all attractive women will do this of course, but the point here is that the more attractive a woman is, the more easily she can do this and still get dates.
In reading through Maria's creative profile, it made me think on whether or not she would have bothered to write it that way if she was a 4 rather than a 9 or 10. (That actually would be an interesting topic...how would a woman who was a 4 or 5 in looks construct her profile for maximum dates? But I digress.) Before I go on, here is Maria's entire profile, edited only for anonymity.
First off, my name is xxxxxx. In order to make things fun, I’ve created this short quiz for you to see if you qualify as a good match. If you dare, send your score in a message 😉
Name_____
Age_____
Career ________
If you look at my pictures then send me a message -20 points
If you look at my pictures, read my profile, then send me a message. +20 points
If you use full sentences, grammar, and punctuation. +10 points
If you possess the ability to hold a conversation and go a little outside of the "how is your day?, what are you up to?, etc." +10 points
Copy/pasting me the same message you sent to the last 10 girls. -15 points
Calling me beautiful, pretty, mami, sexy, gorgeous, or anything mildly referring to my looks. -15 points
Giving me your number. -50 points
Asking me for my number. +10 points
Asking me for my number without a couple days of online conversation -20 points
Less than 4 photos -20 points
No clear photos of body, face, or eyes -10 points
Photo of you in sunglasses -15 points
Less than one paragraph about yourself in your profile. -20 points
Looking for “new friends” -45 points
Looking for a serious relationship +50 points
Can remember my name +25 points
Scrolled back up to reread my name +5 points
Scrolled back down to see if you completed the test +5 points
Thanks for reading! 😀
It's certainly different than the typical female I-like-long-walks-on-the-beach-and-I'm-not-here-for-one-night-stands profile that fills dating sites all over the world, even though it coveys much of the same concepts.
Her profile also ensures that most guys will actually read her profile. Not an easy feat with men like me out there on the dating sites. Hell, she got ME to read it. More importantly, it gives her a strong indication of which incoming messages are indeed from guys who bothered to read her profile, which is something she clearly feels strongly about.
Let me pause here and get you to think about duplicating Maria's technique for your own profile, based on your own online dating objectives. I think this technique, used cleverly, would likely raise your response rates, as well as "cold opens" you get from women who come across your profile via searches. If any of you would like to try the guy version of this method and report back your results, please do. (I may do this myself next time I go back online to do some blitzes, but that may be a while.)
Back to Maria. Sadly, as you can probably tell, she would not be one of those women who would respond to any of my huge, canned-opener online dating blitzes (unless perhaps I was much closer in age to her and looked really, really hot). More on this in a minute.
The Woman's Perspective
She told me what most women would agree with, in that:
It's a tad insulting when a guy only looks at your pictures and doesn't even skim your profile. If I was a woman I'd probably feel the same. However, the man side of this equation is very different. Again, I'll discuss this more in a minute.
As a 9-10 in looks, Maria is very choosy and quite outcome independent:
Some guys will joke in their messages that they don't have the time to do it, they're bad at math, or ask me to score them. Instead of telling them to go message an easier girl, find a calculator, or stop being lazy, I just delete the conversation...obviously, I wasn't that important to them.
Men are often surprised, and even a little offended, that women don't "try" harder online. For example, more than once I've had guys who complain to me that women will send out openers that just say "Hi".
"WTF? That's it??? Why don't they try harder??? That's bullshit!" Well, guess what dude? They don't have to. They're girls. Damn near every guy online wants to have sex with them and they know it. This isn't complicated. If they're really hot women, multiply this by ten. It's just how the world works. Accept it.
Even more importantly:
And a perfect score doesn't mean a perfect match...I still have to be physically attracted to you. Ah, indeed. This is why I've always said that your online dating profile photos are at least 80% of your success or failure online. You could be the coolest, suavest, funniest guy on OKCupid or POF or Match, but if a woman feels absolutely nothing as she looks at your photos, you're not getting a response. Remember how I've said, many times, that complimenting a woman's appearance is bad? If you needed any more evidence on top of the mounds I've already given you, take a listen to this:
Even more guys would much rather refer to me with an adjective (ie beautiful, sexy, mami) than my name which is insulting. I'm not on a dating website for guys to talk about my looks and give me compliments. I get enough of that in real life. Exactly. Too many of you bastards out there still don't get that.
It's you guys who need to print out Maria's above statement and plaster it up on your monitor every time you go hunting online (or in real life). Complimenting women's appearance is death, especially if she's very pretty. I've been screaming this from the rooftops for years now, and every time I do, guys come out of the woodwork saying that it's okay as long as you do it using the correct frame or something.
Take my advice, and Maria's advice, and just don't do it. Wait until you've had sex with a woman on at least two separate occasions before you start complimenting her appearance. By then it won't hurt you.
She even expanded on this:
I'm online to filter through and find myself a potential serious relationship. My looks are obvious. Let's try other topics like my education, hobbies, ambitions, etc. The key phrase in there is "my looks are obvious". This is exactly what I've been trying to tell you guys. Dammit.
Next is this:
So many messages I get have terrible spelling, sentence structure, and grammar. A two page message without any periods or commas are painful to read. I'm not asking for perfect, but if you want to impress an educated woman in your introductory message, you might as well show some evidence of passing high school English.
I go into detail about this in my ebooks, but how many times have I said that women online are like picky English teachers when it comes to written communication? In the real world, a woman will forgive, or even ignore, a slip up in grammar as you speak. But online, she's going to see every little thing you do wrong, and it's going to turn her off fast. This is very normal. Expect it.
Moreover, contrary to what she says, this does not just apply to "educated women". Women who are complete morons and who use bad grammar themselves will judge you harshly if you do the same to them. If you don't believe me, try it sometime. No, it's not fair, but again, it's how the world of online dating works.
Her profile also ensures that most guys will actually read her profile. Not an easy feat with men like me out there on the dating sites. Hell, she got ME to read it. More importantly, it gives her a strong indication of which incoming messages are indeed from guys who bothered to read her profile, which is something she clearly feels strongly about.
Let me pause here and get you to think about duplicating Maria's technique for your own profile, based on your own online dating objectives. I think this technique, used cleverly, would likely raise your response rates, as well as "cold opens" you get from women who come across your profile via searches. If any of you would like to try the guy version of this method and report back your results, please do. (I may do this myself next time I go back online to do some blitzes, but that may be a while.)
Back to Maria. Sadly, as you can probably tell, she would not be one of those women who would respond to any of my huge, canned-opener online dating blitzes (unless perhaps I was much closer in age to her and looked really, really hot). More on this in a minute.
The Woman's Perspective
She told me what most women would agree with, in that:
It's a tad insulting when a guy only looks at your pictures and doesn't even skim your profile. If I was a woman I'd probably feel the same. However, the man side of this equation is very different. Again, I'll discuss this more in a minute.
As a 9-10 in looks, Maria is very choosy and quite outcome independent:
Some guys will joke in their messages that they don't have the time to do it, they're bad at math, or ask me to score them. Instead of telling them to go message an easier girl, find a calculator, or stop being lazy, I just delete the conversation...obviously, I wasn't that important to them.
Men are often surprised, and even a little offended, that women don't "try" harder online. For example, more than once I've had guys who complain to me that women will send out openers that just say "Hi".
"WTF? That's it??? Why don't they try harder??? That's bullshit!" Well, guess what dude? They don't have to. They're girls. Damn near every guy online wants to have sex with them and they know it. This isn't complicated. If they're really hot women, multiply this by ten. It's just how the world works. Accept it.
Even more importantly:
And a perfect score doesn't mean a perfect match...I still have to be physically attracted to you. Ah, indeed. This is why I've always said that your online dating profile photos are at least 80% of your success or failure online. You could be the coolest, suavest, funniest guy on OKCupid or POF or Match, but if a woman feels absolutely nothing as she looks at your photos, you're not getting a response. Remember how I've said, many times, that complimenting a woman's appearance is bad? If you needed any more evidence on top of the mounds I've already given you, take a listen to this:
Even more guys would much rather refer to me with an adjective (ie beautiful, sexy, mami) than my name which is insulting. I'm not on a dating website for guys to talk about my looks and give me compliments. I get enough of that in real life. Exactly. Too many of you bastards out there still don't get that.
It's you guys who need to print out Maria's above statement and plaster it up on your monitor every time you go hunting online (or in real life). Complimenting women's appearance is death, especially if she's very pretty. I've been screaming this from the rooftops for years now, and every time I do, guys come out of the woodwork saying that it's okay as long as you do it using the correct frame or something.
Take my advice, and Maria's advice, and just don't do it. Wait until you've had sex with a woman on at least two separate occasions before you start complimenting her appearance. By then it won't hurt you.
She even expanded on this:
I'm online to filter through and find myself a potential serious relationship. My looks are obvious. Let's try other topics like my education, hobbies, ambitions, etc. The key phrase in there is "my looks are obvious". This is exactly what I've been trying to tell you guys. Dammit.
Next is this:
So many messages I get have terrible spelling, sentence structure, and grammar. A two page message without any periods or commas are painful to read. I'm not asking for perfect, but if you want to impress an educated woman in your introductory message, you might as well show some evidence of passing high school English.
I go into detail about this in my ebooks, but how many times have I said that women online are like picky English teachers when it comes to written communication? In the real world, a woman will forgive, or even ignore, a slip up in grammar as you speak. But online, she's going to see every little thing you do wrong, and it's going to turn her off fast. This is very normal. Expect it.
Moreover, contrary to what she says, this does not just apply to "educated women". Women who are complete morons and who use bad grammar themselves will judge you harshly if you do the same to them. If you don't believe me, try it sometime. No, it's not fair, but again, it's how the world of online dating works.
Provider Hunting
The next few items apply not to women in general, but women who are in provider-hunting mode. As she stated above, Maria is looking for a serious relationship. At one point she told me:
I'm not looking for just "anyone". I'm looking for THE ONE. Therefore, such high expectations require a certain degree of patience. Remember that, because the fact she's looking for The One™ is going to strongly color the next few opinions she has.
1. As you can tell from her profile, she doesn't want guys to attempt a date or phone/Skype contact until after a longer conversation online. It's unsettling when guys are trying to establish a date, ask for my number, or communicate via Facebook, email, Skype, etc. in the first message...or even in the fifth message. I like at least a few days of QUALITY conversation before I'm comfortable enough for anything outside of this site.
2. She is looking for a very particular type of man, compatible with her provider desires:
I prefer men that are educated, employed, older than myself, and capable of conversation that extends past small talk. Consider this: If Maria was looking to just have fun, would she really care about how educated he was or was not? Or his age? Probably not, and even if she did it would be much less of a qualifier.
3. She wants an two-way evaluation during the online phase, well before any phone/Skype/FB introductions or conversations:
I don't really think it's fruitful to put a whole lot of information about myself, because I feel that this information should be earned through conversation. I'd much rather have a guy evaluate if he could measure up first. Generally, both online and in real life, the more a woman is in provider-hunting mode, the slower the interaction will be. The woman will demand a slower pace, the vast majority of men will oblige her, and she knows it.
Most men looking for just sex will bypass a woman like this quickly. Men looking for both a good time and "something serious if it happens" may or may not move at this pace, depending on their personalities, how long it's been since they've had sex, and how attracted they are to a woman's photos. A guy for whom Maria is exactly "his type" will probably take the time, whereas a guy who has a different "type" probably would not. And I have a feeling Maria (and other women looking JUST for a serious relationship and nothing else) would prefer it that way.
The Man Side of the Coin
Most longtime readers already know my opinions about reading profiles (don't) and when to pitch a first date (at the second or third email exchange). So am I right or is Maria right?
The answer is, we both are...based on who we are, what we're capable of based on our respective genders, and what we're looking for.
She's right, in that if she wants a serious, monogamous, compliant provider/boyfriend/husband, she needs to do a hell of a lot of screening, filtering, and compliance tests, and online she can easily do this before she ever even has a phone call with a guy. Because she's a woman, most men will take the time to oblige her. Because she's a very attractive woman, the amount of men doing this will be extreme, allowing her sit back, relax, and pick the juiciest apples from the barrel.
If you judge success by a woman's ability to snag a boyfriend, her online process is likely effective. (That of course brings up several other topics. We could have a very long discussion about her long-term relationship effectiveness, the type of men she will be attracting whether she's aware of it or not, as well as how fast Maria should be having sex with prospective boyfriends, but these are all topics beyond the scope of this post, and most of you know my opinions on these anyway, as well as the facts surrounding them regarding human behavior.)
I am also right in my online approach, in that as a man attracting women, if I want to get from zero to sex as fast as possible with the minimum amount of time spent, and sort the girlfriend-quality (or in my case, MLTR/OLTR quality) women from the non-quality ones post-sex, I'm not going to read profiles at all. I'm also going to pitch the first date not on the first message (tacky, and low odds of success) but definitely on the second or third back-and-forth exchange (unless there is a very huge age difference, in which case more comfort may be required). In other words, I'm going to move pretty damn fast and ignore the women who don't play. And it works.
I'm not going to engage a woman in a long, drawn-out online conversation, because as most men know, there are way too many women online who will talk to you for days online then suddenly vanish and never talk to you again. Which means you've just wasted all that time interacting when you could have been on a real-life first date with a woman much more likely to have sex with you and/or get into a relationship with you.
In a way, Maria and I are doing the same thing. We've established a specific system, only work with people who go along with the system, and quickly reject and ignore people in a very outcome independent way who don't choose to follow our systems. Of course Maria's short-term and medium-term goals are very different, but that's part of what makes this interesting.
This is why a little journey into Maria's world was so fascinating, as it usually is when I talk to experienced women. Thank you Maria for giving me permission to examine your technique! (She's seen this blog post and I told her she's welcome to place comments but she's under no obligation to do so. I also happen think she might make a good judge for a future online dating profile contest.)
Want over 35 hours of how-to podcasts on how to improve your woman life and financial life? Want to be able to coach with me twice a month? Want access to hours of technique-based video and audio? The SMIC Program is a monthly podcast and coaching program where you get access to massive amounts of exclusive, members-only Alpha 2.0 content as soon as you sign up, and you can cancel whenever you want. Click here for the details.
The next few items apply not to women in general, but women who are in provider-hunting mode. As she stated above, Maria is looking for a serious relationship. At one point she told me:
I'm not looking for just "anyone". I'm looking for THE ONE. Therefore, such high expectations require a certain degree of patience. Remember that, because the fact she's looking for The One™ is going to strongly color the next few opinions she has.
1. As you can tell from her profile, she doesn't want guys to attempt a date or phone/Skype contact until after a longer conversation online. It's unsettling when guys are trying to establish a date, ask for my number, or communicate via Facebook, email, Skype, etc. in the first message...or even in the fifth message. I like at least a few days of QUALITY conversation before I'm comfortable enough for anything outside of this site.
2. She is looking for a very particular type of man, compatible with her provider desires:
I prefer men that are educated, employed, older than myself, and capable of conversation that extends past small talk. Consider this: If Maria was looking to just have fun, would she really care about how educated he was or was not? Or his age? Probably not, and even if she did it would be much less of a qualifier.
3. She wants an two-way evaluation during the online phase, well before any phone/Skype/FB introductions or conversations:
I don't really think it's fruitful to put a whole lot of information about myself, because I feel that this information should be earned through conversation. I'd much rather have a guy evaluate if he could measure up first. Generally, both online and in real life, the more a woman is in provider-hunting mode, the slower the interaction will be. The woman will demand a slower pace, the vast majority of men will oblige her, and she knows it.
Most men looking for just sex will bypass a woman like this quickly. Men looking for both a good time and "something serious if it happens" may or may not move at this pace, depending on their personalities, how long it's been since they've had sex, and how attracted they are to a woman's photos. A guy for whom Maria is exactly "his type" will probably take the time, whereas a guy who has a different "type" probably would not. And I have a feeling Maria (and other women looking JUST for a serious relationship and nothing else) would prefer it that way.
The Man Side of the Coin
Most longtime readers already know my opinions about reading profiles (don't) and when to pitch a first date (at the second or third email exchange). So am I right or is Maria right?
The answer is, we both are...based on who we are, what we're capable of based on our respective genders, and what we're looking for.
She's right, in that if she wants a serious, monogamous, compliant provider/boyfriend/husband, she needs to do a hell of a lot of screening, filtering, and compliance tests, and online she can easily do this before she ever even has a phone call with a guy. Because she's a woman, most men will take the time to oblige her. Because she's a very attractive woman, the amount of men doing this will be extreme, allowing her sit back, relax, and pick the juiciest apples from the barrel.
If you judge success by a woman's ability to snag a boyfriend, her online process is likely effective. (That of course brings up several other topics. We could have a very long discussion about her long-term relationship effectiveness, the type of men she will be attracting whether she's aware of it or not, as well as how fast Maria should be having sex with prospective boyfriends, but these are all topics beyond the scope of this post, and most of you know my opinions on these anyway, as well as the facts surrounding them regarding human behavior.)
I am also right in my online approach, in that as a man attracting women, if I want to get from zero to sex as fast as possible with the minimum amount of time spent, and sort the girlfriend-quality (or in my case, MLTR/OLTR quality) women from the non-quality ones post-sex, I'm not going to read profiles at all. I'm also going to pitch the first date not on the first message (tacky, and low odds of success) but definitely on the second or third back-and-forth exchange (unless there is a very huge age difference, in which case more comfort may be required). In other words, I'm going to move pretty damn fast and ignore the women who don't play. And it works.
I'm not going to engage a woman in a long, drawn-out online conversation, because as most men know, there are way too many women online who will talk to you for days online then suddenly vanish and never talk to you again. Which means you've just wasted all that time interacting when you could have been on a real-life first date with a woman much more likely to have sex with you and/or get into a relationship with you.
In a way, Maria and I are doing the same thing. We've established a specific system, only work with people who go along with the system, and quickly reject and ignore people in a very outcome independent way who don't choose to follow our systems. Of course Maria's short-term and medium-term goals are very different, but that's part of what makes this interesting.
This is why a little journey into Maria's world was so fascinating, as it usually is when I talk to experienced women. Thank you Maria for giving me permission to examine your technique! (She's seen this blog post and I told her she's welcome to place comments but she's under no obligation to do so. I also happen think she might make a good judge for a future online dating profile contest.)
Want over 35 hours of how-to podcasts on how to improve your woman life and financial life? Want to be able to coach with me twice a month? Want access to hours of technique-based video and audio? The SMIC Program is a monthly podcast and coaching program where you get access to massive amounts of exclusive, members-only Alpha 2.0 content as soon as you sign up, and you can cancel whenever you want. Click here for the details.