Get Free Email Updates!
Join us for FREE to get instant email updates!
Being Too Much “Player”
Holding an attractive woman in your arms who clearly wants you to give her good lovin' yet resists all attempts to do so because she's "not a slut!" or "not a whore!" or "I'm a lady!" or "it's only the second date!" or "I have a five date rule!" or any of the other completely unnecessary societally programmed bullshit women falsely believe they must adhere to is indeed the most frustrating, maddening thing about dating there is. (At least in my opinion.) I fought this for years before I learned what I was doing wrong and changed things around, but going through that process was very painful at times.
-By Caleb Jones
I keep having a problem where I can meet women, get them on dates, and get laid, but they never stick around. We have sex maybe once or twice, and then they tell me that "we want different things" or that they want "more than sex" or something, and then they're gone.
Another variation of the same problem is:
Usually when I meet a woman, I can get her to a date or day2 no problem. But I can't close the deal. She starts telling me that I'm "a player" or that I "just want sex".
It's the same problem in both cases: The guy is exhibiting too much "player". By doing so, he's putting a woman's ASD on full alert. So either he doesn't get laid, or he does get laid once or twice until the woman's buyer's remorse (also caused by ASD) goes full-blast and she vanishes. If you've encountered either problem, especially with more than one woman, this article is for you.
The Good News
Realize that your problem is a very good one to have. An AFC who isn't getting laid at all, or has to work very hard to get women interested in him, has much more work ahead of him than you do. You simply need to tweak your game and frame a little. So don't feel too bad...most men have it much worse than you.
Secondly, if you're getting this far with women, you likely have no trouble at all with confidence and Outcome Independence, which is 80% of your success with women at least. Therefore I don't need to lecture you on those two areas like I have to with most other guys. Well done and pat yourself on the back for that. Lastly, women clearly like you, so that's not your problem. I know that's small comfort, but again, that's a huge hurdle for millions of other men out there.
The Bad News
It's an extremely frustrating problem. Hey, I've been there too. We've all had the experience of being out on a first, second, or third date with a woman and it's very clear she wants to have sex with you, but she "can't" because of her stupid I'm Not A Slut™ dating rulebook. This especially applies to women over age 33.
It's great when a woman isn't attracted to you at all and makes that clear. No problem, have a nice life, then WOOSH!, I'm outta there and onto the next woman like a streak of light. But a woman who is attracted to you but won't have sex with you because of her own false Societal Programming...grrrr. As I've said before, the yeses are good, the nos are good, the maybes will kill you.
It gets worse. While societal ASD isn't your fault (unless you're a slut shamer), the fact you're getting all this resistance is your fault (assuming she's under the age of 33; more on this in a minute). You're acting too much like a player, whether you're aware of it or not.
The opposite of "player" is what I usually call "provider". Don't get hung up on the specific terms. "Player" could easily be called "lover" or "Alpha". "Provider" could be called "AFC" or "beta". I'm also not saying it's always bad to provide for a woman. Let's just not argue about nomenclature; you get the point. For this article I'm going to call it player vs. provider.
If you're too much player, does that mean you should act like a provider? Hell no. Acting like the typical, needy, boyfriendish AFC is a dangerous place to be. It means more expensive dates, lower lay ratios, longer meet-to-lay times, more drama, less freedom, less sex in the long run, and more owning-your-balls type relationships. Bad all over. So if we can't be a provider, but can't be too much player, what's the answer?
The 85/15 Rule
I first discussed this concept on the old forums way back in 2010. After years of testing, I found this to be the best way for a "normal" guy to get laid as fast as possible with high odds of success. In the years since 2010, I have had no indication whatsoever that I was wrong.
The concept is this: For most guys, the ideal combination for both fast seduction and quality, long lasting nonmonogamous relationships is to be 85% player, 15% provider.
Let me qualify that before I hear the objections:
If your goal is nothing but one night stands and/or single night lays, and/or if your entire pickup game is done via night game and nothing else, then 100% player is fine. Stick with that. If you are well under the age of 30, and all the women you go after are under the age of about 23, then 100% player is probably okay. Stick with it if you wish.
If you are the typical societally-programmed man and your goal is to get into a Disney monogamous relationship or marriage with a perfect girl who is Not Like The Rest™, then go ahead and crank up the provider from 15% to 50%, 70%, or even 100%. I'd hate to be you, and I'm not sure why you're reading this blog, but hey, it's your life. But if your goals and methods are similar to mine, in that you want to get laid as fast as humanly possible via going out on dates, and the women you're dealing with are anywhere from age 18 to 32, and absolute monogamy is not your goal, then 85% player, 15% provider is the best way to go.
The exception to the rule (and you knew this was coming) is women over age 33. 85/15 won't help you at all with women this age. Trouble is, 100% player will also not work (unless you are under the age of about 27 and are extremely good looking or ripped and can do the whole "good-looking-poor-guy" thing well). 100% player will repel over-33 women very fast, and often offend them to boot. 100% provider might work on these women, assuming you don't mind five, six, or seven expensive dinner dates plus monogamy commitments before you ever get to sex. To be clear, 85/15 will work best for men of any age focusing on women under the age of 33.
The 85/15 rule means you are a player and clearly demonstrating it. However, you also have little hints of provider that sneak out and show themselves to her. Example Of A 100% Player
Here’s how it might look with the 100% player guy:
He’s good-looking but not dressed in anything expensive. He has a crazy, cool hairdo and sexual eyes. He talks about fun, surface-level topics. He’s got a very sexual frame and kinos a lot, with lots of confidence. He does not talk about money, career, or job, and if she brings up those topics he blows them off to get back to the fun topics (like sex or snowboarding or whatever). He talks about how much he loves to drink, party, and have fun. He’s cocky, smart-alecky, and funny. He doesn’t do much to demonstrate his intelligence, just his sexual frame.
Nothing wrong with 100% player at all. However, unless this guy is at a club late in the evening, this guy may sometimes get resistance from women because they're thinking he's "a player!". Thanks to Societal Programming, ASD, and slut shaming, women don't want to get "played", even if they are very attracted to the guy.
Here's how it might look with an 85/15 man:
He’s also good looking, but unlike 100% player guy, he's wearing some clothing that could be interpreted as costing a little more money. His clothing also has a cleaner, less rumpled look. (Whereas the 100% player may look like he just rolled out of bed.)
He’s got a very sexual frame and kinos a lot, with lots of confidence, just like the 100% player. He does talk about jobs and work, just a little, and when she asks about what he does for a living he DHVs just a little and just for a few seconds, before resuming a sexual frame and/or redirecting the conversation back to her. He doesn’t get into too many specifics, but his aura is that of a man who does have some level of responsibility in life.
If he has kids, he mentions them and how much he likes spending time with them. But only for about 20 seconds…then he gets back to talking about the good stuff (like sex). (If the 100% player guy has kids, would never, ever bring it up, and he always hopes women never ask him about it.) He’s cocky and funny, but not quite as smart-alecky as the 100% player. In addition to his strong sexual frame, he also demonstrates a little of his intelligence, knowledge, and experience. But just a little.
Let me reiterate something. If the 85/15 guy talks too much about his job, experience, responsibility, hopes/dreams, kids, or similar areas, he's now seriously moving into provider territory, which is bad. His 15% provider is now more like 40% or more. Thus his odds for a fast lay go down, not up. It's very important you hear me on this. I am not recommending you act like a provider. Rather, I am recommending you introduce just a tiny bit of it into your game if you are experiencing the two problems I listed at the beginning of this article.
Do you see the subtle but clear difference between 100% player guy and 85/15 guy? From the woman’s standpoint, that first guy is undoubtedly attractive, but he’s going to be either a fantastic lay or a guy she should avoid because he’s “dangerous” (her ASD is going to fire up). But in any case, he’s (likely) not going to be a guy she’s going to “date”, even if she ends up having sex with him.
To her, the second guy is in more of a gray area. He would probably be a good lay too. He’s attractive and compelling just like the first guy. But in her mind, there may be something “more” to this guy than just a wild night, and her ASD lessens, at least a little. (Which is probably all you need.)
So if you're running into the two problems above, tweak your frame and your game just a little bit to "reveal" a little provider and then see what happens. I think you'll be pleased.
Want over 35 hours of how-to podcasts on how to improve your woman life and financial life? Want to be able to coach with me twice a month? Want access to hours of technique-based video and audio? The SMIC Program is a monthly podcast and coaching program where you get access to massive amounts of exclusive, members-only Alpha 2.0 content as soon as you sign up, and you can cancel whenever you want. Click here for the details.
Get Free Email Updates!
Join us for FREE to get instant email updates!
don jon 2013-10-25 17:14:24
Interesting no one has commented yet. I wonder if it's because this topic doesn't really leave a whole lot up for debate. Your analysis is tight and tells it like it is, and people know this is how it is. Which leads to me this: Men rarely post responses so they can learn. When they do post a response, it usually just to debate shit and get their own drama fix.
Blackdragon 2013-10-25 17:22:00
Comments have been pretty quiet in the last week or so here. My child support posts didn't get very many comments either, which is surprising, even though traffic to this blog is up. People must be less talkative when winter comes around. 🙂
jack 2013-10-28 16:18:59
What would you say is the ideal ration for post-33 women? 66% player? 50%? I do find that there are some post-33 women that are really attractive. I also find that their asd is higher too. Much higher if you day gamed them.
Blackdragon 2013-10-28 16:41:35
What would you say is the ideal ration for post-33 women? 66% player? 50%?I actually don't have an answer to that question. As you said, these women have ASD that is sky-high no matter what you do. Unless you do good-looking-younger-guy-with-no-money game, any percentage of player will upset them, even offend them, and too much provider will send you down the path of many dinner dates that may or may not lead to sex. My default answer that is the least-worst combination would be somewhere around 50/50 or perhaps 60% player 40% provider, but even with those combinations you're going to have to plan on lower lay ratios and longer meet-to-lay times (ie more dates). My best advice for women over-33 is to do your best to meet them exclusively via social circle game. Complete cold approaching for this age group (daygame, online game, whatever) is going to be a nightmare unless you're dealing with an exception to the rule.
mike 2013-12-12 10:25:31
I have the same problem of being accused of being player. I have no problem setting up dates even several ones, but somewhere down the line I always mess things up... Do you think it's a good idea to bring up that you would like to have kids in the future "if the right woman would come along" ? I find it difficult to act as a provider. It's not in my nature
Blackdragon 2013-12-12 12:14:00
Do you think it’s a good idea to bring up that you would like to have kids in the future “if the right woman would come along” ?Sure. That's one idea that would work. You could even go beyond that. "I would LOVE to have kids someday!"
I find it difficult to act as a provider. It’s not in my natureIt's not in mine either. Thankfully you don't need to be a provider. Just show hints of it.
RSD Cat 2015-01-29 05:31:14
BlackDragon, just found your content and I absolutely love it. I am a complete fucking pimp and have the same attitudes as you --> I keep girls MORE than I ONS them. Dudes who I go out with watch me pimp a room and take numbers and then leave early and think I suck.. until they read my FR with the countless day2 + day3 fucks and mLTRs. (My RSD FR has 180+ pages of these slutty stories). I have a ROMANTIC frame with these girls. I'm finding that this frame is SOMEWHAT of the 15% guy you're suggesting above. Easy stuff: kiss them on the forehead, a sweet text out of nowhere, telling them they are beautiful (and meaning it). But I've been having some issues w my game recently... because they feel like they are getting PIMPED + ROMANCED and it feels strange. They know/feel how sexual I am but get confused why I'm so sweet and nice. Your post makes me realize the difference between ROMANCE + SLIGHT PROVIDER. Showing them the TIP of how responsible I am as a 27 year old and then taking it away... is the missing ingredient for me. My ideal distribution: 85% player, 5% romantic, 10% provider. Esp here in Colombia (spending 6 weeks here working and pimping massively) where girls have Catholic ASD.. this formula is helping me better understand WHEN its working and when its not. Thanks for the thoughtful and thought-provoking post man. I'm already totally into your shit and have been DESPERATE to find someone who I can relate to who also seems to be 2-3x better than me. Cheers dude! -Cat
Blackdragon 2015-01-29 10:27:25
My ideal distribution: 85% player, 5% romantic, 10% provider.Never thought of that distribution; very interesting!
Paul X 2016-01-11 04:23:39
OMFG. Thanks for this post. I've been slaying it on Tinder and I've had this trouble. Was really surprised two ghosted me after sex, which one said was the best sex of her life on date 2. Out of 11 chicks banged this last year, I'm down to 2 FB, both of which I laid on the first date, both are the best sex I've ever had, but neither want to see me more than once a fortnight/month for marathon sex and a meal beforehand. I've been a bit ruthless too, ditching 4 of them for being bad or below average sex, while still being great girls. 2 were total psychos, though good sex. The last was ok, but I was on a roll getting new ones. I suppose the 2 FB left just love my player vibe. I try and tone it down now. Thanks.
giulio 2016-02-12 00:59:15
It's funny, you always say girls over 30 years old are the most demanding. From my point of view (I'm 25 years old) they are actually the best. the reasons are various: 1) they have a lot of experiences with men (good and bad) so they have usually dropped all the disney fantasies that 20 years old girl have 2) they don't have any expectation, beside a good lay, so I can get them to bed the same night 3)they are (usually) good at sex from the first night, 20 years old girls are very often shy the first time they have sex with you 4)less expectation=less drama, good deal I'm not saying that you are wrong, I just gave you the point of view of a younger man.
Blackdragon 2016-02-12 14:50:32
It’s funny, you always say girls over 30 years old are the most demanding.No. I always say they make a man wait longer for first-time sex on average. Which they do. Once you get past that point, I agree women over 33 are great. It's just that I usually have no interest in spending the extra time (and/or money) to get past that point when there are so many women under age 33 who will have sex with me quickly and easily.
From my point of view (I’m 25 years old) they are actually the bestYes, I've said many times that if you are your age, much of their ASD doesn't apply to you and you should go for it, particularly if you're young and good looking.
Ron Gordon 2016-06-02 21:32:53
With regard to "Usually when I meet a woman, I can get her to a date or day2 no problem. But I can’t close the deal. She starts telling me that I’m “a player” or that I “just want sex”. One bold move that has worked for me repeatedly is to pull out your qokk (assuming you are in a private area). In all cases the woman will either stroke, suck, phuck, or watch you masturbate. Use this for women on the fence.
josh 2016-11-29 01:19:08
I'm not having issues way up front as in this article, but although girls are sticking around 5-6 months with me before I get nexted, I never seem to get the repeated questions that eventually should require "the talk", and in the rare cases that a girl actually does ask me even one time if I'm still dating or still sleeping with other women, it is generally a very young, sexually inexperienced/naive kind of girl. I give the kind of response you suggest, exactly by the book, but I've literally never been asked a second time much less a third, never had "the talk", and eventually they LSNFTE me, presumably for a guy that offers monogamy. It seems pretty obvious that they "know", and don't feel they need to ask, although I never leave "proof" and I think I go really light on the evidence as well honestly. Does this indicate my frame is too much Player as well? Side question, I've read you say elsewhere you aren't very active on FB anymore but in your books you often say it's pretty useful for assisting your EFA. I'm wondering, as far as leaving "evidence" goes, would you ever post photos of yourself hanging out with one of your FB's or MLTR's on Facebook or is that too blatant? Or my FB's often cook me a meal, I've often considered posting those good looking home-cooked meals (for two) on the page, but again, I wonder if that's not too much? I also wonder if it might not get misinterpreted as "boyfriend" behavior by the girl I was with in the photo, so double bad...