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I have a friend I'll call Dan. Dan's a typical guy, which means he's a beta but not an extreme one. Last weekend he took the woman he's dating to some kind of fancy art event downtown. I'll spare you the details, but while they were waiting in line, Dan got into a very awkward conversation with the gal about who was going to pay for what. He wanted to go dutch; each of them would pay for their own ticket. She was pissed. She expected him to pay, as he had on prior (though less expensive) dates.
-By Caleb Jones
Many years ago when Tom Leykis was still on the radio, I heard him tell the following story. I may be getting some of the details wrong, but the gist is accurate. Tom had a girlfriend who had a child. Tom, the girlfriend, the child, and a female friend of the girlfriend, plus her two children, all went to Disneyland as a group. As the six of them waited in line, chatting and having a fun time, the ticket lady called them up to the counter.
Tom was nearest the counter, so he walked up and said "One please". He paid his single $50 ticket, and entered the park. He turned back around to see his girlfriend glaring at him with murder in her eyes. He just stared back at her. She made a sputtering sound, irritably pulled out her purse, walked up to the ticket counter, and angrily barked, "Two adults, three children!". That's right, she paid not only for herself and her kid, but for the entire other family as well.
For the rest of the day at Disneyland, Tom's girlfriend gave him the silent treatment. Finally when they were alone for a few minutes, he asked her what was wrong. (As if he didn't know.) She started screaming at him in front of everyone about how inconsiderate and selfish he was and what an asshole he was for not paying for all six of them. He responded with guy logic, saying that he never promised to pay for her or her child, and moreover why would he possibly pay for her friend and her kids when he barely knew them? Things got worse from there, as you might imagine.
Both Dan and Tom were in the wrong. The drama they experienced was 100% their fault. No, it wasn't their fault because they weren't paying. I don't spend a lot of money on women either. Not paying too much for women is smart. I promise you most women wouldn't regularly buy us dinners and drinks if the roles were reversed, and they know it.
No, the problem was they didn't clarify well in advance who was going to pay for what. Both Dan and Tom live (or lived) in very different worlds than me. I've always had a natural habit of telling a woman in no uncertain terms before we go anywhere that costs money exactly what I will pay for and what I will not pay for. We do this before we even get in the car, before we even change our clothes to get ready, and hell, often days if not weeks before the event.
This way, I never experience the awkwardness or drama Dan and Tom and millions of other men have to go through when going out with a woman to a place that costs money. Every woman in my life knows well in advance what she will be expected to pay for, if anything.
What if I tell her that I will not pay for her and she doesn't like it? Then the worst case scenario is that she complains before we go. I hate any drama from women of course, but if a woman is going to complain, I'd rather have her do it before the event in the privacy of my home instead of during the event, in public, when expectations are high.
Even if she does complain, I just shrug and tell her that's how it's going to work, or we can just skip it and hang out at my house instead. Usually she'll just agree. If instead she keeps on with the drama, which is rare, then no problem, she gets an instant soft next and I go have sex with someone else. Very simple.
To be specific:
If I'm going to pay for a woman, I'll tell her. Sometimes with more valued MLTRs I will do this. I have no problem paying for a woman I deeply care about as long as it's not something demanded of me or automatically expected of me just because I'm the one who happened to have been born with a penis.
If I'm going to pay for me and not her, I'll tell her. Then she can make the decision if she wants to go dutch, or not. (Or go somewhere less expensive, or dump me and go date a beta male who will pay for her, both of which would be fine.) If I'm not going to pay at all, I'll tell her that too. Sometimes I'll simply say, "I'm not going there unless you want to pay for the entire thing." Then it's completely up to her as to whether we go or not.
I'm not a Needy Alpha 1.0. I don't tell women what to do, ever. I simply tell women what I'm going to do and then let them make up their own minds. Women always know well in advance where they stand with me, especially in financial matters like who is going to pay for the date, event, or trip.
This is so simple, so effective, and so damn obvious. Then why don't more men do this? Why is this last minute uncomfortable shuffle over who will pay for what such a common problem with couples?
First you have guys like Dan. Dan didn't want to tell the girl about how he didn't want to pay for her (or wasn't able to) because he thought she would get mad at him, or dump him, or whatever. As a pussy beta male, Dan does not want to do anything that the woman may not like (since he's always scared to death she might leave him and since he likely has raging oneitis). So he cowardly just puts the issue off until the issue must be brought up, like ten seconds before they approach the ticket counter and someone has to pay.
When Dan's chilling with the woman he's dating, and she says, "Hey, we should go to this art show!", guys like him don't have the balls to say, "Cool. How much are the tickets? $39? Okay, great. I'll pay for my ticket, and you pay for yours. We'll have a really fun night."
Then you have guys like Tom. Tom Leykis isn't a beta, so courage and confidence aren't his problem. His problem is another common issue with men: guy logic. Tom's girlfriend pitches the idea to go to Disneyland with him and her kid and some friends. Tom smiles and says yes, that would be fun, let's do it.
Using guy logic, Tom "knows" that his girlfriend wouldn't be stupid enough to expect him to pay $300 for all six people to go to Disney. Hell no. That would be insane. My girlfriend isn't insane, therefore she's not expecting that. Cool. What a fun trip this will be.
The problem with guy logic is that women don't use it. Women use women logic. While he's thinking that, she's thinking that since he smiled and agreed to the Disney idea, that automatically means he's just agreed to pay for everyone's Disney tickets, food, gas, souvenirs for the kids, and any other expense that may arise on the trip (of which there will be many) because he's a "gentleman" and because He Really Loves Me™. Cool. What a fun trip this will be. Queue massive drama when they discover they were both horribly wrong about each other.
Guy logic is fine. I use guy logic every day and it works extremely well. Without guy logic, I would be making one-fifth the income and be getting one-twentieth the sex I get now. Guy logic is awesome. But I never use it when anticipating female behavior. Guy logic is the exact opposite of how women think. Within the context of sexual or romantic relationships, I'm always expecting women to use woman logic, not guy logic. 95% of the time I'm right (and 5% of the time I'm pleasantly surprised).
The reason I never experience major relationship problems and almost never experience drama despite the fact I'm always dating at least three women is because I plan on woman's use of woman logic in advance, at all times.
So when she says we should go to that new cool Indian restaurant, I know exactly what her woman logic will be telling her if I say yes. So I say yes, but immediately follow up by telling her exactly what I'll pay for and what I won't. Her woman logic is instantly short-circuited, and now it's prevented from damaging my happiness or my life. You should get into the habit of doing the same.
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Bastardly 2013-11-14 07:53:46
Right on. Usually use something like this to negate any bad reaction from a woman: "Cool, I'll get my ticket, you get your's. Tell you what though, I'll get the first round of drinks after." Used that a bunch, gotten basically no resistance and all I'm really saying is whatever we do after we're splitting too, I'm just being nice enough to kick things off.
Kevin 2013-11-14 10:40:39
I make it clear from the outset that if I ask the girl to do something, I will be paying. If she asks, then she will be paying, unless I feel magnanimous and offer to pay or help pay. But that is rare. If the woman suggests something, I look at the costs and if I think it is too high, I tell her so. If she insists, she will have to pay. Sometimes when I am paying for the entire date, the girl will insist on helping to pay I might let her leave the tip, or buy snacks at a movie. It all depends on the type of relationship we have. Your analysis of where these two screwed up is exactly right. Leykis is smart enough to know better. I imagine he was just screwing with this girl.
JQ Public 2013-11-14 11:10:15
For the beta pussy males out there, please do tell exactly how this conversation would go down. How do you phrase the convo when telling your plates that you want to go to an art museum, and oh by the way, I am only paying my own way? Maybe you wouldn't do that if you invted her. Maybe you would.
Blackdragon 2013-11-14 11:25:07
“Cool, I’ll get my ticket, you get your’s. Tell you what though, I’ll get the first round of drinks after.”Great way to do it.
I make it clear from the outset that if I ask the girl to do something, I will be paying. If she asks, then she will be paying, unless I feel magnanimous and offer to pay or help pay.That works only if that arrangement is very, very clear and very, very verbalized. A lot of men and women assume the above even when it isn't true.
For the beta pussy males out there, please do tell exactly how this conversation would go down. How do you phrase the convo when telling your plates that you want to go to an art museum, and oh by the way, I am only paying my own way? Maybe you wouldn’t do that if you invted her. Maybe you would.Everyone has their own style, but here's how I usually do it: "I'm going to that art exhibit that's coming in next week. You're welcome to come with me if you're cool with paying your own ticket." "I'm going to Vegas next month. You're welcome to come with me if you want to pay for your own plane ticket and kick in for some of the food. I'll cover the hotel, since I'll be there anyway." She says: "I want to go somewhere fancy!". I say, "I do too. We can go to 'expensive-restaurant' next week but my budget only allows for me. If you want to pay for your half, let's go." One of my frames with women, and it's a very true one, is that even though I do well financially I am extremely frugal, a huge budget tightwad, and hate spending money. This helps. Most men like the throw a lot of money around with women during the initial phases of the relationship, then have to figure out how to backpedal later. Bad.
lifeofalovergirl 2013-11-14 21:38:08
Hmmm... I generally expect men to pay, but I also would never ask them to take me somewhere specific then expect them to come up with the cash. That seems just as rude as a man asking a woman out then wanting to go Dutch. To me it seems like basic etiquette. You ask someone out, you are offering to pay. I might hint at wanting to go someplace I cant afford but I would never outright ask if I wasn't planning on paying. Because I am mostly broke, I just dont ask guys to take me anyplace specific. If they offer I will go. If they said I had to pay I probably would just politely decline and not go. Fortunately, I haven't had a whole lot of issues with men paying for things since I have been divorced. Maybe because we are older and more mature, or because in the area of the country I live in things are more old fashioned in that regard. I agree that if you invite someone to go someplace with you, and you dont want to foot the bill, you need to make that clear beforehand. Its all about basic manners and that's really a big part of what women are talking about when they say they want a gentleman. Now me, I do find it more attractive when a man pays for things. If he comes across as too much of a cheapskate that's just not hot. Wanting ME to pay for stuff makes him seem like a dick. I also like it when he's the one making most of the decisions about where we go and what we do. So I am not demanding, take me here and you pay. That just seems bitchy.
Dave 2013-11-16 12:59:10
Thank you for the perfectly concise clarification BD. This should be taught in schools. Basic open, honest communication should be a fundamental. Crikey.
Angel Camacho 2013-11-24 20:36:44
Yes, good point by you, and balanced reply; I should've noted that I wasn't necessarily advocating having women pay for you as a tactic, though I will note that I know a few guys who DO use it as a tactic and claim it works well for them.
Bellum 2014-01-24 03:20:52
I'm Flemish, so Dutch is my native language. Here's my view: Discuss the division of costs in a relationship. It should be just and fair, considering the disposable income of both partners, and a gift should always be appreciated as such by actions, not words. Sexual favours are a given, and should never be counted as a token of appreciation. Never discuss who'll pay what on a date. Assume each will pay their own, as you would with your male friends: it doesn't have to be exactly 50/50, but it should approximate it. If she expects you to pay for her, she doesn't have a good personality and is a waste of time.