Subjective Attraction

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Subjective Attraction

Recently I had a first date which turned out to be a fascinating experience. I wasn't going to talk about this yet, but I'm currently running an experiment where I'm going on first/second dates with some over-33 women. It's a long story and I'll talk more about it in a few weeks/months when I'm done with it. In the midst of this, I had a first date with a woman in her late 30s at one of my usual fancy bars I use for first dates.

-By Caleb Jones

This woman was cute and young-looking, but not overly hot. I think most men would consider her a 7 or 7.5, perhaps others a 6. It's possible some men over 40 might consider her as high as an 8. All looks are completely subjective of course, but looking at her as objectively as possible, I would probably say she was around the 7.0 range.

Yet, this woman was so strongly attractive to me, she drove me wild. I'm not kidding. I actually had to control myself at some points. As we sat on the couch and talked, my sexual attraction for her was overwhelming. I had this powerful desire to just throw her down and start having sex with her right then and there in front of everyone. I actually had to mentally remind myself to not compliment her appearance, not once, but several times over the course of the one-hour date. This is rare for me.

During all this, I thought to myself: "This woman isn't even that hot! I've dated 9s and even a 10 or two in my day. I've dated women 20 years younger than her. This woman isn't anywhere near these women in physical attractiveness. So why does she turn me on like this?" It was interesting. I felt horny and turned on and frickn' fantastic...and I didn't even understand why.

After the date I took a few minutes and mentally sorted the reasons I was attracted to her despite her unspectacular appearance. I thought back to the theory that human beings tend to be attracted to their physical opposites, and that deep within our DNA is a "type" that represents our genetic opposite to whom we are more biologically attracted to, in order to ensure we create healthy, diverse children.

I'm no biologist so I'm not sure if that's true or not, but the feelings I had on this first date certainly lent credence to it.

Here's what I came up with as possible reasons for my attraction:

She had very sharp, very feminine facial features. Small face, tiny jaw, tiny little nose. There's some very powerful biology for us men at play when a woman has a face like that. She was not blonde, which tends to be my favorite, but her hair was light brown, very fair, and very fine. (I know, because I touched it, as I always do on first dates.) Like the rest of her, it was very delicate, very feminine.

She had ridiculously beautiful eyes. I'm a huge sucker for women with nice eyes, especially if the eyes are dark and sparkly at the same time. This is exactly what she had; rich, deep brown eyes, my favorite, with a dancing fire underneath them. (For the record, my eyes are very blue. Is this why I'm always more attracted to women with brown eyes?) She was wearing makeup of course, but had very little of it. Just enough to make her look good, but no more. Too many women either wear not enough makeup or way too much. Makeup is a balance that's difficult for a lot of women to nail. She nailed it. At least for me.

She was very short...about 5'2". I am very attracted to short, small women. (Conversely I have a big, football-player body. Coincidence?) She was wearing tight jeans and her legs were my favorite kind. It's hard to describe my favorite type of legs on a woman...the easiest way I can explain is legs that are not fat, not muscular, and not skinny. In other words, perfectly shaped feminine legs that are a little squishy. That's exactly the legs she had. It was hard to pull my eyes away from them. She had a big nice ass despite her small frame. Perfection. (To me.)

She did not have big tits. I'd say she was a B-cup. This was a problem, because I like big breasts. But it didn't detract from the overall experience. Generally I need a woman to have at least big boobs or a big ass. If she has one of the two and is pretty I will get over the fact she doesn't have the other.

That covers her physical appearance. What about her non-physical attributes? Even if a woman is gorgeous, if she's bitchy or demanding she's going to turn me off fast. So this woman clearly had aspects that turned me on which had nothing to do with her physical appearance:

She was very happy. She was smiling and laughing with me, and her laughs were real. They were not forced laughs, or "polite" laughs, or nervous laughs. She was real. This is one interesting. She said "fuck" and "shit" once or twice. Just once or twice. I'm not sure why, but I like that.  When a woman doesn't cuss at all, it tends to give her a false, superior, almost academic air. Not good. On the other hand, if every other word out of a woman's mouth is the f-word or the s-word, that's a big turnoff too. She did it just right; swearing just enough to show that she was relaxed and a real person, but no more than that.

She spoke in a very quiet, feminine, almost submissive tone. Very sexy. (Again, to me.) Greatest of all, she showed absolutely zero ASD. Usually I can detect this from women on a first date, especially with those over-33s. She had none, at least not on the first date. (Not surprisingly I did run into some on the second date.) We talked about sex in detail, and a few other similar topics, with complete ease and zero resistance. (Often the over-33's get embarrassed or even offended when I talk about sex on a first date. I love ASD.)

She showed absolutely zero hints of provider hunter. She showed no indication whatsoever that she was looking for a "gentleman" to take her out on a bunch of dinner dates and then swear loyalty to her for the honor of paying her bills. Not even one tiny drip of this, which considering her age was a wonderful breath of fresh air. (The irony is that this is the kind of woman I would consider having a serious relationship with and perhaps take care of financially...a woman who doesn't ask for it, demand it, or expect it of me because I'm a "gentleman" or whatever.)

When I asked about birth control she mentioned she had a Mirena IUD. Hallelujah praise the Lord! Whenever a woman tells me she has one of these, my attraction instantly boosts up a few notches. That means I can have some fun fun fun with her without worrying about a child support check in my future. She held strong, deep, positive eye contact.

She was humble and self-deprecating. She told me several funny stories where she got into trouble and acted like an idiot, including one where she got drunk and puked all over a bar. Though this may be obvious by now, she was attracted to me. When I wrapped the date up at the one-hour mark (I had to go pick up one of my FBs), she didn't want it to end. It was very clear she wanted to remain there with me and keep conversing. (But many women are into me during a first date, so that wasn't the reason I was attracted. It was just yet another item on the list that "helped" her.)

I have had first dates where I was extremely attracted to the woman before, but when this happens it's usually with women who were clearly 9s or 10s or similar, not one who could barely crack a 7. I think this was one of those odd confluence of events where everything she had lined up perfectly in her favor for me regardless of her objective appearance. Very interesting.

There's an entire pet industry that's based around making fun of the girlfriends, boyfriends, or spouses of famous figures. Sometimes people will be surprised when the see a photo and say, "Wow. She's his girlfriend? Why is he with her? He could do so much better!" After this experience, I think I understand why. He's attracted to something very subjective, something most others won't see.

I know I'll get this question in the comments, so to answer it, yes, we ended up having sex. Sadly, it took three dates (remember, she's over 33), but it was still less than 6 hours meet-to-lay and I only spent a grand total of $28. Not bad over an over-33. Hopefully she'll be a new MLTR, but we'll see.

Next, you're probably wondering if I have oneitis. No. I don't get oneitis, ever. I can and do experience NRE at times, but that's not oneitis. I will not "change" for this woman, and if I never see her ever again it would be totally fine. I have plenty of other high-quality women in my life. And I can always go get more. And so can you.

Subjective attraction. Very interesting.

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This article was originally published on December 19, 2013


  • mxfly 2013-12-19 07:48:54

    Since all looks are *completely* subjective, that proves that most men would rate her anywhere from one to ten, because... you're annoyed by Heartiste's silly insistence that a 9.257 is objectively a 9.257? Or what? Your blank-slatist ideology is as silly as the 9.257 stuff. Calling other people out for believing what they want to doesn't magically protect you from committing the same error; in fact, that mote-log thing is a classic human failure mode. One of the attractions of blank-slatism is that it lets you pretend that all the classic human failure modes that you correctly identify all around you are actuslly extrinsic to the human mind, so it's possible for one special individual (you, by a gratifyingly self-flattering coincidence) to be immune. In practical terms, of course, that's less than 1% of what you have to say, and it's easily ignored in favor of the useful 99%. You seem to reserve the willful self-deception for areas where it has no practical impact, too, which is a habit we should all emulate.

  • William W. 2013-12-19 08:04:33

    Maybe she's a student of Arden Leigh, a leader on the female side of the PUA community. I wish Ms. Leigh and others like her the utmost success.

  • Kevin 2013-12-19 08:41:26

    Ive had a similar incident. Couldnt put finger on the attraction I chalked it up to phermones

  • Kurt 2013-12-19 08:42:43

    Good looking =/=attractive, at least not always. I long ago learned to trust my boner on these matters, and since have had some of the best sex of my life with women who didn't have much in the looks department but were somehow sexy as hell to me, and perhaps only me.

  • Blackdragon 2013-12-19 09:13:08

    Since all looks are *completely* subjective, that proves that most men would rate her anywhere from one to ten, because… you’re annoyed by Heartiste’s silly insistence that a 9.257 is objectively a 9.257? Or what?
    I never mentioned Heartiste at the post you're referring to. And yes, looks are subjective, not objective. Are *all* looks *completely* subjective? Probably not. I'm also not sure what error you think I made. There's a difference between saying "This woman is a 7", which the objective statement a lot of guys make often, and "My guess is most men would consider this woman somewhere around a 7", or "*I* consider this woman a 7.0", which are the subjective statements I make, and even then you'll notice I'll make these statements very, very rarely. It's also apparent to me someone's had a little too much coffee this morning.
    Maybe she’s a student of Arden Leigh, a leader on the female side of the PUA community.
    Dude...I would love to be gamed and seduced by a female PUA. That would be awesome. If any female PUAs are reading this and would like to take me out on a date, please email me forthwith.
    I chalked it up to phermones
    Very good point. I didn't even think of that. She could have been in peak-ovulation mode and been billowing that stuff in my face.
    Good looking =/=attractive, at least not always. I long ago learned to trust my boner on these matters, and since have had some of the best sex of my life with women who didn’t have much in the looks department but were somehow sexy as hell to me, and perhaps only me.
    Yep, that's happened to me more than once as well. And yes, I trust my boner.

  • Tin Man 2013-12-19 10:50:18

    This is exactly how I felt/feel with my (x)wife....I really can't put my finger on it and especially now "knowing what I know" about her. But damn, I just enjoy spending time with that woman. Now, in this case, there is a serious amount of ONEitis with her - she is my crack and I'm an addict. The only way to make sure I don't get caught up in her web again, is to just not see her or be around her. I've only had one other experience of this in my 20's....she was not great looking, and her body was not spectacular...but there was something about her and for about 6 months, it was an interesting ride. I was lucky enough to meet up with her for lunch about 3 years later, and what ever there was before, was not there at all, I saw her from a different perspective - like the difference between seeing a photo so someone that is in soft focus and then in sharp focus. Kinda scary actually.

  • AKA 2013-12-19 14:25:17

    I love women that act happy to be alive. Not in the teeny bopper sense of being flightly. Rather, a woman who is happy and secure in herself. This is like the opposite of bitchy. Women have no idea how hot this is to men. 90% of the women I meet will almost instantly bitch about something. These women are never fucking happy. I don't know how they cannot realize that this is repellent to men. I'm also a sucker for girls that curse once or twice. This is my tell that they are not too uptight.

  • Dude909 2013-12-19 15:00:17

    I've experienced that as well. And the opposite is true as well: many vulgar bimbos (the reality tv type) completely turn me off. Here are other massive turn ons for me: Very feminine body language and posture Perfume and scent Voice Smile and laugh Submissive eyes (DDB eyes) Skinny shoulders Sexy yet tasteful clothing

  • Halfbreed 2013-12-19 20:31:16

    "I chalked it up to phermones" This was the first thing I thought of when I read this did she smell? Perfume? Or could you smell her flesh? I swear, I've fallen in love with women just because I couldn't get enough of the way they smelled (natural smell, not perfume)...and I've ended it with others because they didn't smell right to me any longer.

  • Blackdragon 2013-12-19 22:04:47

    I didn't smell a thing, actually (at least not consciously). I've always thought my sense of smell was rather poor. But that doesn't mean she had her pheromones working their magic on me. I usually do not like smelling perfume on women and do prefer to smell "woman" or "flesh", but honestly I usually detect neither.

    I love women that act happy to be alive. Not in the teeny bopper sense of being flightly. Rather, a woman who is happy and secure in herself. This is like the opposite of bitchy. Women have no idea how hot this is to men. 90% of the women I meet will almost instantly bitch about something. These women are never fucking happy. I don’t know how they cannot realize that this is repellent to men.
    I 100% agree, and that is probably the greatest tragedy of modern day dating. Most women have no idea what a turnoff bitchiness is to men, and how much being nice is a massive turn-on and deal-sealer for guys. It really is tragic.

  • David 2013-12-20 06:08:15

    You don't actually *smell* pheremones... I had an experience once I like to mention often (in the right circles)... I was visiting my brother in St. Louis (home of the Blues) awhile back. We saw a performer, an elephantine black woman - I mean, she was *huge*. But she wore a pretty, ephemeral white outfit, and flirted shamelessly with the room, and sang outrageously flirty songs, and the amazing thing was, she was *magnetic*. She owned the room. Men were putting dollars in one boob, and she'd interrupt the song to insist the other boob get the same attention. She was doing what aging, fat, balding male PUAs do, and she was a natural. I could see how a dude who liked them meaty would be totally attracted to this woman. I think as we age, if we do so consciously, we inevitably evolve our ideas of what turns us on.

  • hindusach (@hindusach) 2013-12-20 19:00:02

    Sure you don't have one itis man? Sounds awful lot like it...

  • Blackdragon 2013-12-21 09:23:43

    I'm sure. The term oneitis has a very specific definition. Check the glossary. It doesn't mean "likes girl a lot".

  • Greg 2013-12-22 01:12:10

    Interrupting " the most powerful positive emotion a human being can feel" should set off at least some negative emotions for non zen masters. Was the sex special in any way?

  • Blackdragon 2013-12-22 08:58:11

    My NRE has not been interrupted (so far). Was the sex "special"? No. Awesome? Yes. "Special" sex comes later; at least for me.

  • Sharmaine 2017-08-14 21:28:54

    BD, I have a feeling she is Pink Firefly...

  • Blackdragon 2017-08-14 22:13:44

    She isn't. Note the significant differences in her physical description. But good guess.

  • Johnny Ringo 2018-03-02 21:29:08

    It took me a long time to figure out what I liked in a woman.  I had hints here and there, but didn't put it all together until recently. I like a more take charge/confident type woman, because of the rarity of them.   It's amazing the difference in sexual veracity, in terms of the strength of my boner.  (hate to be graphic) I find fear and shyness to be a turn off, generally.  (not always) The conflict came when I learned about dominants and submissives.  I have never met a truly independent woman per BD's definition.    But, yes.  Dominants are wildly appealing to me on some levels. The first time I tell these ladies "no" on anything, they tend to bolt.    This is my fault of course for setting up a frame where I let them do as they please until the moment they cannot.   And, they tend to have many rules and hoops. My journey was all about finding a woman who wasn't fearful of everything, didn't need me to make every decision for her, and enjoyed the idea of defeating other ladies in front of me in grappling or even fighting. (I can always find these in the trailer park........but pretty ladies are "much" harder.  And, they want to parabond to one man at a time generally) The genetic "superior" woman thing resonates on all levels within my genes and soul. We all have strange fetishes, I can tell you from my own business and personal life.   There is not a lot of talk about fetishes in the open, or the things that drive our desires, but it's something I keep an eye on personally.