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How NOT To Screw Up Sex Talk
-By Caleb Jones
This past year I'm happy to report I did learn a few new things, and the biggest one is what I'll relay to you today. Doing this wrong cost me several women, and I'm quite sure you have probably made this same mistake in the past even if you weren't aware of it.
You have a quick first date/meet and she clearly likes you. Because you've read my stuff, you've taken my advice and had a good amount of sex talk on the date. It's very obvious she really likes you and is attracted to you. After the date, she even gives you the Ultimate IOI by texting you first. You figure you've got this one in the bag, and the next time you hang out, you'll be having sex with this woman.
So far so good. You've doing everything right.
You schedule the next date with her. It will be on Sunday night, which is three nights from now. At your place.
So far so good. You've doing everything right.
Some time between the first and second (or sometimes third) date, you have a text conversation. During the conversation, things get very sexual. This is good. Women love talking about sex and sex talk always raises the odds of success. You get sexual with her, and she loves it and wants more. You give it to her, and she texts that she's really wet and is super turned on. On and on this goes for a few minutes.
So far so good. You're doing right.
Now here's where you make the huge mistake that costs you the entire thing.
During the sex convo you're getting turned on yourself, and say, "Just wait until Sunday night. I'm going to throw you down and mash your head into the carpet while I fuck you like the bad little girl you are." She responds, "Yes! Yes master! OMG this is turning me on!" You keep right on going, telling her about how you're going to ravish her on Sunday night, and she loves it. Without you even being aware of it, you've just killed the entire deal.
Sunday rolls around, and you can't wait! Then you get a timid text from her and she flakes on you bigtime. She's "too tired" to meet up today. Or she forgot she promised a friend she'd help her move. Or her mom is sad and she needs to "be there for her". Or whatever. She flakes. Your Sunday night date never happens.
On Monday or Tuesday you text her, and don't get a response. You text her again on Thursday. No response. You never hear from her ever again.
GRRRR! She was so into you! What the hell happened?!?
Crossing The Line
You sex talked her, and that's good. You should always be sexual in this way with a woman you're trying to have sex with. It raises your odds considerably as I've said many times.
The problem is when you said you were actually going to do this to her the next time you see her. By making that one little statement, you instantly moved all this sexual stuff from the conceptual fun fantasy world she was living in to the world of hard realities. You have subtly though radically changed the entire dynamic of the interaction. You're not aware you did this...you were too caught up in the sex talk. But the crazy thing is that even SHE was unaware of it. She just keeps right on sex talking you, all excited to be fucked by you the next time you meet.
The problem is what happens after the conversion. The next morning she wakes up, does her normal routine, and goes to work. The euphoria of the sex talk from last night has vanished. Cold reality has returned.
At some point throughout the day, she suddenly realizes, "Oh shit. This guy actually expects me to have SEX with him on Sunday!" All of her ASD is instantly activated. On that last date, she had very little ASD. Over texts last night she had none. But now it's blasting at 100% percent. You actually said you're going to fuck her on Sunday. OMG.
Her feminine brain goes wild with all the sexual logistics women have to freak out about whenever they have sex with a man for the first time. These are things men don't give a shit about, but things women consider of paramount importance:
- What if he doesn't like how I look naked?
- What if I get my period that day?
- What if I know my period is going to be starting around that day? (Even if my period doesn't actually start, my pussy will smell different! OMG!)
- What if I don't have time to do my pedicure and exfoliate my entire body that day?
- What if I don't have time to shave my legs/pussy/armpits that day?
- Hey...that's Sunday. Don't I have breakfast with the Davidsons that day? OMG! What if they put onions or peppers in the omelettes? My breath will smell funny all day! OMG!
- What if I'm too tired that day?
- Sometimes I wake up and feel bitchy for no reason. What if that happens that day?
- What if I'm not horny that day?
Yes gentlemen, women actually think through all this crazy shit when they know they'll be having sex with a guy for the very first time. Be thankful you're a man.
I know what your guy-response is to this stuff: "But...I don't care if she exfoliates! I just want to tap dat ass!" I know you don't care. I don't care if a woman exfoliates or has completely shaved her legs either. But women care. If she doesn't feel sexy and perfect, she's not going to go drive to your house to go have sex with you the first time.
So she flakes on you and makes up some dumb excuse. Then she never sees you again, because she now thinks that the very next time you see her, you'll be expecting sex. You've put too much pressure on her. So she's gone forever, even though she really liked you.
Is her behavior making any sense? Of course not, but we're talking about women here.
Conceptual Sex Talk, Not Real Sex Talk
Several times over the last 12 months or so, I did exactly this. I had women who were very, very interested in me, very attracted to me, who suddenly vanished from my life pre-sex because I said (or even just implied) that sexual stuff was going to go down the next time we were to meet. And if you're wondering, age made no difference. This happened with women as young as 20 and as old as 39.
Learn from my mistake. Here's how to make sure this never happens to you.
1. During sex talk, at any point pre-lay, never ever suggest, say, or imply that these things are actually going to happen the next time you meet. Be very careful about this. Never cross that line. Don't get too caught up in the moment so that you'll forget. Once she becomes your FB or MLTR, you can sex talk her all you want with reckless abandon, but for the moment you need to be a little careful.
2. This includes even if SHE brings it up first. Amazingly, you will still kill the deal even if she brings it up(!). For example, she texts you something like "I can't wait for Sunday night so you can pull my hair and pound me hard!". Instead of responding the way you want ("That's right. I'm going to do a hell of a lot more than just pull your hair...") you need to respond with something like, "Haha. No, no. We're just going to talk and hang out and relax. One step at a time."
Don't worry. You're still going to escalate all the way to sex, because that's what she wants. You're just not going to verbalize it at this point. Otherwise you'll activate all of her ASD excuses I listed above.
3. You still want to have sex talk. Don't let this be an excuse to not talk about sex. Some of you bastards out there are going to read this article and just assume that you should not talk about sex pre-lay. No! Talk about sex, dammit! Get as explicit with her as you can, on the first date, subsequent dates, and over texts if you like. Just keep it conceptual. Keep it in the what-if fantasy realm. Never cross it over into the real world where it's going to happen on a certain day in her schedule. But talk about sex!
I'm willing to bet you've made this same mistake before and didn't realize that it was what killed the deal for you. Now you know. Go forth and conquer!
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Matt T. 2014-01-26 06:56:57
Clairvoyant post, BD. We must be linked telepathically because situation #2 in your post happened to me yesterday. After the first date (Wednesday), we had this text conversation on Thursday: Her: Had fun last night. Especially where you used the table to reenact banging a stripper. Me: I like using furniture… for reenactments. 🙂 you were easy to talk to and fun. Her: If we went out again, I think we’d have even more fun and by more fun, I mean we’d have great sex. Lol. Me: Reading my mind! Me & Her: [logistics...] Then, yesterday (Saturday), she said gave the BS excuse "I don't like to share, but we can still be friends," which meant she didn't like me having other girlfriends. And of course, she was cool with my EFA of having other girlfriends on the first date.
Sid 2014-01-26 08:28:10
Great post! Is there any recovery even when you suggested to a girl something sexual through text and she ignores it? I didnt have full sext talk but just hinted and never heard from her.
Blackdragon 2014-01-26 09:56:50
Me: I like using furniture… for reenactments. 🙂 you were easy to talk to and fun. Her: If we went out again, I think we’d have even more fun and by more fun, I mean we’d have great sex. Lol. Me: Reading my mind! Me & Her: [logistics...] Then, yesterday (Saturday), she said gave the BS excuse “I don’t like to share, but we can still be friends,” which meant she didn’t like me having other girlfriends. And of course, she was cool with my EFA of having other girlfriends on the first date.Exactly. And see how she made it worse by saying "we'll have sex". When she says that, you've lost her. It's happened to me too.
Is there any recovery even when you suggested to a girl something sexual through text and she ignores it? I didnt have full sext talk but just hinted and never heard from her.No. (Other than being lucky.) You screwed it up. Your'e going to have to learn from this and not do it again next time. Do not bring up sexual topics over texts out of the blue. Only do it within the context of an ongoing conversation.
josh 2014-01-26 10:23:41
When I was growing up, we always had pet cats who were used to being handled by people, and you could kind of play with them and carry them around like handbags and they were cool with it. Then we got this rescue cat who was cool mostly then would suddenly flip out for no reason and bite you when you were petting him. Bought a cat behavioral book, and learned to look for the clues that a cat was about to flip out. In his case it was a sudden repositioning of the ears. Still a cool cat, but you had to be always paying attention to his cat body language, you could never really be comfortable with him because he would suddenly be done with petting and wouldn't just leave, you know, you had to watch the ears, which in his mind was totally obvious, but since it was in cat language, we just had to figure it out. It helps me to accept posts like this, and not to just, you know, throw my hands up and say forget it, (exfoliate my whole body. lol) women are all crazy, if I think of them like I think of that cat. The problem isn't you. Despite the fact that women are human just like you are, they seem to be controlled by these crazy, often subconscious, ways of looking at things, that would be total hypocrisy if they were men. Like, we will fuck like bunnies as long as we are never totally honest about what we want or what we are doing. She is just a rescue cat, somehow in the body of a human, who is uncapable of speaking your language, so you have to figure out hers.
jack 2014-01-26 12:23:27
Another very informative post. The female emotion mechanism is dominated by their simultaneous need for sex yet fear of its potential costs. The subject of female ASD is so vast that in some future healthy society my guess is that there will be volumes of science heavy texts written on it. Today, its only the PUAs that have any understanding of the concept. And it is something that AFC's have no clue about. This is especially true when you get some big successes, like when you have three first dates in a row and end up having sex with all three women (which actually happened to me last year). Your system is based on a two date model (or three if total time is under 4 hours). But you do have first date sex on occasion. Can you tell us how those dates play out for you; i.e. what is their pattern? Do you use multiple venues; i.e. cafe - bar - home? Or do you just sense that its on and invite the girl back to your place (and I am assuming your first date conquests are at your place)? And how long are these dates? Less than 3 hours? To be plus 40 and get first date sex is not easy.
Henry lindler 2014-01-26 12:59:09
Followed your blog for six months or so. Maybe I have missed it in the archives or current blog, but never seen an article on how to recover from a flake, when it had sure signs of being on (she texted right after first meet up, etc. Given the amount of dates you have, do you BD, ever get what you perceive as legitimate 'flakes'. If so, how do you reschedule without coming off as needy? I am dating other women, but I would like to come back around and integrate this girl, as she is much younger than other women. I do not have the time to date like you.
Blackdragon 2014-01-26 15:56:34
Josh - Your comment is Hall of Fame worthy. Well done. Jack -
Your system is based on a two date model (or three if total time is under 4 hours).Yes.
But you do have first date sex on occasion.On occasion, yes. But it's the exception to the rule.
Can you tell us how those dates play out for you; i.e. what is their pattern? Do you use multiple venues; i.e. cafe – bar – home? Or do you just sense that its on and invite the girl back to your place (and I am assuming your first date conquests are at your place)? And how long are these dates? Less than 3 hours? To be plus 40 and get first date sex is not easy.I did it just last year with an 19 year-old in under 90 minutes. It's usually a meet at a cool bar (or cool coffee shop/deli if she's under 21) then bounce to my house to "hang out". As always, I do not recommend going for first date lays unless you like fighting ASD or you're a Thrill Of The Hunt-type of guy, which I am not. The vast majority of the time (not every time, but most of the time) first-date lays take a long, long time (well more than 3-4 hours), often lasting late into the evening, and often there is alcohol and $$$ involved. I don't do any of that, so I use a 2-date, less-than-4-hour system (these days it's less than 3 hours). Much better in my opinion. Henry -
Given the amount of dates you have, do you BD, ever get what you perceive as legitimate ‘flakes’. If so, how do you reschedule without coming off as needy?Just immediately reschedule with her right then and there, then SHUT UP and stop texting her. Text her again 24 hours before the date to confirm the date and do some QUICK banter. "Needy" is not rescheduling a date. "Needy" is talking to much and contacting her too much.
lazy guy 2014-01-27 04:43:36
BD, great info in this post, thanks. Your comments are part of a wider topic of interest, which is how a sense of spontaneity is so important to women's capacity for erotic 'magic'. I hope to read more of your comments on about that. When I'm getting physical with a woman, I sometimes must say or do things to neutralize her assumption that I will keep pushing for as much as she will allow, ASAP. She seems to be thinking 'Oh, if I'm letting him do C, then soon he'll be moving on to D, then E, then F' etc. So if she isn't ready for 'Step E', then she might stop you from doing 'Step D' ... or C ... or B ... To me, it's silly to be stopped from enjoying A, B, & C just because she isn't already sure she's ready to fuck you now. Honestly, I want to enjoy each step for itself, keeping my mind absorbed in that moment, not anticipating (not too much anyway) what we might be doing five minutes from now. Each moment or step can be more erotic if you both know that this might be as far as we're going to go now. I avoid the scenario/feeling of she's 'letting' me do something; like it's just okay with her; like we both understand that I want it more than she wants it. I like to go slow enough (such as happily staying at Step D a long time, like maybe that's as far as I want to go now) that her desire compels her to initiate progressing further; openly admitting she wants it. When she can't hide or deny her desire for me, it's exciting for both of us. ... BD, is this TMI? BD, what are your thoughts on stopping her from assuming that each step will inevitably lead to the next step, as if agreeing to do C means she is agreeing to go much farther, or all the way?
Blackdragon 2014-01-27 10:20:30
I don't really understand your question. If you're taking sexual escalation slowly because you like slow escalation, that's perfectly fine. If you're taking it slow because you're worried if you go too fast she's stop you, that's not fine. Assuming it's the 2nd date, I proceed at the speed I like (which is pretty fast). If she stops me, okay, she stops me, but I don't adjust my speed based on what I think she might do.
Magnum 2014-01-27 11:36:13
I wish you had written this sooner, I had to figure it out on my own. Last summer I had a date with a girl who was absolutely into me and texted first when we left. I implied too much and what do you know, date #2 never happened. Thanks for covering this in a way that sets perameters.
Bo 2014-01-28 19:41:26
Are they really worthy of your time and attention when they act like this? If I wanted this kind of behavior, I'd have kids. Lolz
Bo 2014-01-28 19:45:55
But on a more constructive note: BD, given your 2-date model, about what % of women do you end up losing (i.e. radio silence on their part) after date 1 (honest now lol). As has been discussed on the Roosh forum, there is a consensus that western women have become increasingly skittish with each passing year. Specifically, there is a growing phenomenon of women disappearing after a positive (non-sexual) first date when you've done nothing wrong to blow yourself out.
Blackdragon 2014-01-28 19:55:21
Are they really worthy of your time and attention when they act like this? If I wanted this kind of behavior, I’d have kids. LolzThat's a decision every man must make for himself, on a case-by-case basis. Just remember that women will always act like women.
BD, given your 2-date model, about what % of women do you end up losing (i.e. radio silence on their part) after date 1 (honest now lol).These days, most first dates I have turn into sex on date 2 (or date 3 at the worst). As I mentioned in the post, last year I had three first dates in a row that were all successes. That's 100% first-date-to-lay success rate for a single online blitz. I'd say my overall average these days is 70% at least. That's a rough guess...I'd have to crunch some numbers on my spreadsheets to be sure. Two caveats to this: 1. It's gotten harder via online to get dates (lower response rates). 2. I have to re-iterate this is the case these days. For many, many years my ratios were much worse. I started at 1 lay per 10 first dates(!). Brutal.
As has been discussed on the Roosh forum, there is a consensus that western women have become increasingly skittish with each passing year. Specifically, there is a growing phenomenon of women disappearing after a positive (non-sexual) first date when you’ve done nothing wrong to blow yourself out.I'm well aware of this viewpoint. I think there is some truth to it, but I think it is way overstated. A lot of it is guys just getting pissed off and frustrated. My results from very American women have improved every year, because I have improved. It's that simple. Moreover, there are a hell of a lot of guys (including on Roosh's forum) who refuse to stop cold approaching women over age 33. If they just did that, they would be quite surprised at the increase in results they'd see from Western women. (As just one example.) I have an upcoming post that addresses this issue in more detail.
jack 2014-01-29 10:15:23
My results from very American women have improved every year, because I have improved. . That's the crux of it. Your dating skills are honed. My guess is that the Roosh guys are not smooth and also they are not authentic, especially if they are running Roosh/Roisy asshole/neg game. That turns off more girls than it gets. Plus, Manoshpere guys tend to be outright misogynists (when I read Roosh's lay reports I was shocked at how hostile and adversarial he is during his dates!!). That turns women off alot. I went through that stage which is why I rarely read Manosphere stuff anymore (its a soul suck). I don't read Roosh (he's unbearable) and I only read Roissy occasionally for entertainment value. And god help you if you get involved with that "Dark Enlightenment" stuff. But basically, most guys suck. It takes time to become a sexy man. And game can only do so much.
jack 2014-01-29 10:20:55
Moreover, there are a hell of a lot of guys (including on Roosh’s forum) who refuse to stop cold approaching women over age 33. Oh and with this, I have learned alot about this over the last year. And my view is that women over 33 are far more interested in material concerns. They are vetting you for a provider. They want to know that you have at least a solid income and the ability to provide a decent lifestyle or better. Some will want a lot better, especially if she is an aging beauty as I call them. Basically, money matters ALOT with older women. It doesn't matter hardly at all with women under 25. This is all part of the natural life arc. I really don't see this is ASD or societal programming. When women are younger they are primarily concerned with fun and lust, thus they are far more susceptible to guys with game. But when they get older, reality sets in. The more traditional factors start to play much greater roles. Yes game can help. Alot if you are really good. But the pair bonding instincts of women get stronger as they get older (on average of course, there are plenty of slutty older women as well). Game's power over women lessens as they make their sexual decisions based more on logic and less on emotion (which is what most young girls do).
Blackdragon 2014-01-29 13:46:28
I really don’t see this is ASD or societal programming.Agree with everything you said except that. If it was only a stronger focus on finances and not ASD or Societal Programming, then women over age 33 would still happily fuck Alphas on the first and second date (just like they did in their 20s) while they continued to hunt for a provider. Once they found their provider, then they'd stop having sex with the Alphas. But that's not what happens. Instead, even if they have no other men they're "working on", Alpha behavior on a 1st/2nd date actually upsets and irritates them, and they run away from Alphas their own age very quickly. They will do so even if they have no other immediate prospects, and even if they perceive the Alpha to be of high income.
Lovergirl 2014-02-02 09:34:38
I get turned off when guys get TOO overtly sexual before our first meet too. I think it's more because they act like the seduction process is over already and it isn't. They start to seem demanding and pushy instead of intriguing. Like last night I was texting with two different new guys, plus a guy I have been seeing for awhile. (I was stuck at home due to icy roads so couldn't get together with anyone). All three of them were being sexual with me but I am now pretty much bored and turned off by the two I haven't met. The guy I am already sleeping with, he could probably get away with saying just about anything sexual because I already know he can and will fuck the hell out of me. I love the sex with him. I'm already turned on by him, he doesn't have to pass any more tests in THAT regard. The other guys, their texts started to get annoying as fuck. Well, one of them sent me a picture of his limp dick and told me I needed to make it hard, which is like the biggest turn off ever. I briefly contemplated sending him a picture of my dry vagina and saying "you need to make it wet" but I didn't, lmao. But aside from that their texts just started to seem needy after awhile. Getting too visibly excited about the sex beforehand makes you look like you are desperate for it. That is where it gets to be a turn off. A lot of times, guys will get to this point and it seems like they are trying to make you PROMISE you will have sex with them the next time you see them. Sometimes they even outright demand an answer to this (as did both guys last night). This goes back to that trying to logic women into sex thing. It's NOT hot to try and "logically" make a woman say she will fuck you. She wants to be seduced. Once you act like you think you have her in the bag, its over. She's not having fun with the seduction process anymore and you seem demanding. Women don't want to have sex because they feel obligated.
Blackdragon 2014-02-02 10:47:20
She wants to be seduced. Once you act like you think you have her in the bag, its over. She’s not having fun with the seduction process anymore and you seem demanding.Agree somewhat. The line is between asking a woman to "come over to your place" after 1 hour on a first date (which a lot of guys try, unsuccessfully) and being a very sexual man on that first date (for just one hour, then leaving) without even trying to get laid. On the second date, different story....
Ron Gordon 2015-06-11 01:34:33
I recently started sending crotch shots in underwear to tinders before first meeting and after first date because I was getting a high flake rate. Here are three cases: (1) first date with no kino, then later sent crotch shot and she was very happy and we met and had sex; (2) first date with kino and she texted me right after the date and wanted to meet a few days later. I got too ahead of myself and talking about random crap and asked if she wanted to see a pic of my abs I am working on. She said "sure" so I sent the pic and she said looks "great" then canceled our date a few days later and it's over; (3) chatting with tinder and said working on my abs would she like a picture and she said yes, so I sent it and very happy. Then I said, I used to be a stripper in college I have more intimite pics would she like to see. She said yes. What should I do? The reason I am trying this is because some guy does this as his only method. Will do online dating with introduction then story that he was a stripper and get the woman to agree/ask to see his cock then send a picture. Then when he meets he usually has sex on the first or second date and has like 50-60 notches. I appreciate your advice on this method whether or not you personally would use it.
Blackdragon 2015-06-11 09:58:20
What should I do?If you have a perfect 6-pack ab body, then I would be sending chest and ab shots, not crotch shots. I would test (and keep track of) doing this before the first date or after the first date to see which one yielded the best results.
Ron Gordon 2015-06-11 17:52:26
Thanks, that is great advice.
Sim 2015-06-26 18:17:45
Tempted to consciously test this out. Also had a laugh: “I’m going to throw you down and mash your head into the carpet while I fuck you like the bad little girl you are.” Have you ever written about rough sex? Didn't find anything through search. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on if/why women enjoy it, techniques, etc.
Blackdragon 2015-06-29 14:28:00
Have you ever written about rough sex? Didn’t find anything through search. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on if/why women enjoy it, techniques, etc.I haven't. Good idea for a blog post though. I'll add it to the list.
Gregg 2015-09-07 18:09:55
This is a great post and explains some recent flaking for me (as I've tried to get more sexual via text before meets)! However, I have a question: it seems plausible that if you get a woman sexually excited through text before meeting her, perhaps even mention what you'd do to her next time you meet, but don't waste any time and pitch an immediate meet, the sexual texting could work in your favor. In other words, do you think that the flaking has any correlation to the amount of time she has to think things over, etc.? It seems to me that she might still be horny, and if she doesn't have time to cool off, she might be down. Thoughts?
Blackdragon 2015-09-07 19:50:44
it seems plausible that if you get a woman sexually excited through text before meeting her, perhaps even mention what you’d do to her next time you meet, but don’t waste any time and pitch an immediate meet, the sexual texting could work in your favor. In other words, do you think that the flaking has any correlation to the amount of time she has to think things over, etc.?No. Text a woman that you're going to fuck the shit out of her and that you'll be over in 20 minutes. Watch what happens.
Gregg 2015-09-08 11:55:01
Haha when you put it like that, it seems obvious. But are you saying that even if she's fully complying and wants you in that moment, she'll flake out on you if you try to meet up right then? Even if it's done smoothly? Thanks for the quick response!
Blackdragon 2015-09-14 15:24:24
are you saying that even if she’s fully complying and wants you in that moment, she’ll flake out on you if you try to meet up right then? Even if it’s done smoothly?The odds are low, but anything's possible.
Gregg 2015-09-14 18:39:27
Fair enough. Thanks!