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4 Mistakes Older Men Make When Pursuing Younger Women
-By Caleb Jones
Since we're talking about much younger women here, this article is really geared towards men over age 30 or so. If you're much younger than 30 you're welcome to read on if you're curious, since this is something that will be affecting you in a few years.
Instead of talking about what to do to attract and date much younger women, something I've talked about before, today I'll discuss what not to do.
As usual, we need to get our definitions straight. By "much younger women" I'm usually talking about VYW, which I define as women between the age of 18 and 23. There are three types of VYW:
- Type 1s, VYW who are disgusted at the thought of dating any man older than about four or five years older than they are, regardless of how good-looking or confident the older men might be.
- Type 2s, VYW who are extremely turned on by much older men, and are usually turned off by, and bored with, men in their own age range.
- Type 3s, VYW who don't really care about a man's age and don't make a judgment about it one way or the other. However, dating much older men is still often out of their comfort zone, not because they aren't interested, but because they've never done it before.
By "older men" I'm talking about men between the ages of 30 and 49 or so, though men in their 50s who have followed my advice and taken care of themselves physically certainly apply also.
The older man / younger women stuff also generally applies to any man who is hitting up any woman of legal age who is more than 10 years younger than he is. (Since men hitting up women within one to nine years younger is considered "normal" by society in most cases.) So in a way, a 45 year old man working with a 26 year old woman would apply here, even though she's technically not a VYW.
Here then are the four mistakes men most often make when trying to attract younger women.
Mistake 1: Trying To Act Younger
This is the granddaddy of them all. All the time I'm running into guys who tell me things like "I'm 36, but I look 30, so I tell women I'm 29." Less often, though still regularly, I see guys in their 30s and even 40s who try to dress, act, and talk like men in their 20s. In extreme cases these guys invade the clubs or college campuses to hit on younger women where they often look woefully out of place.
While there are always unusual exceptions to every rule, this approach does not work. It fails for a very simple reason: The VYW most likely to have sex with you are the Type 2s, which are women who like much older men and don't like younger men their own age. Being an older man, but acting like a younger man (or worse, lying about your age) doesn't make any sense. You are destroying the very thing these Type 2s crave.
They don't want a 38 year-old guy who acts like he's 27. They want a 38 year-old guy who acts like a decently cool, non-creepy, 38 year-old guy. That will turn them on. A lot.
Trust me, when you act your age, but are cool and non-creepy, Type 2 VYW are literally the easiest women to have sex with quickly. I've been doing this for years, and to this day I'm still surprised how fast and easy it is (once you find those Type 2s of course).
It's true that if you're really good looking or have extremely strong game you can overcome the fact that you're acting younger and score with those Type 2s anyway, but why create the extra work for yourself? Dumb.
In most cases I've seen, and I've seen a lot, the reason guys try to act younger is because they're trying to have sex with the Type 1s. I've got news for you. If you're over 30, you will never, and I mean never sleep with a Type 1 VYW. Ever. (Unless she's a hooker and you're paying her). Type 1s are horrified at the thought of having sex with men much older than they are. "Ew! It's like fucking my dad! Gross!"
This is not ASD...no technique will bust through this. It's simply a very strong, visceral preference, often based on the age of her parents which obviously you have zero control over. Even if you've think you've had sex with a reluctant Type 1 VYW before, it's not because she was a Type 1...she was a reluctant Type 3. If she was a Type 1 you would have never gotten her pants off.
The good news is that the world is filled with super hot Type 2s and Type 3s, and I'm talking about what most men would consider 9s and 10s. These women will be more than happy to sleep with a much older man. So all this acting younger shit isn't necessary.
I am the exact opposite of these act-younger guys. Whenever I go out on a first date with a VYW, not only do I not act young, but I will often play up the older man aspect. I know that since she's agreed to a date with me, she's not a Type 1, so she's either a Type 2 (in which case fast sex will be very easy as long as I don't majorly screw anything up) or a Type 3 (in which case my odds are a little lower and a little more comfort-building time will be required).
So I dress a little classier, talk a little slower, drop the energy level down just a little, talk more about the wisdom I've learned over the years, and exhibit other older-guy behaviors. In other words, all the things you would never do if you were on a date with an over-33 woman (because then she'll shove you in Make Him Wait zone).
Mistake Number 2: Acting Like A Creepy Older Man, i.e. Being Horny Or Sexual Too Fast
One of the greatest pieces of seduction advice I've ever heard was to "risk creepy". This means that when you're escalating on a woman, you need to push the envelope. Even if you think she might consider what you're doing "creepy", you need to go for it. That doesn't mean you cross the line, but it does mean you are very aggressive, and err on the side of "creepy" rather than "nice guy".
This is very, very good advice, I do this myself, and I recommend it to all men across the board...
...except older guys trying to hit up much younger women. This is the one exception to the rule. If you're older and she's much younger, you need to be non-creepy. If you start talking about how hot her boobs are or tell her how you "can't wait to get her back to your place", she's going to vanish fast, even if she's a Type 2.
Younger women, even Type 2s, are hypersensitive about creepy older men, as well they should be (for their own safety reasons). Instead of being a creepy older guy, you need to be a confident, safe older guy. Focus more on being confident, outcome independent, non-reactive, and classy. If you think a move might be considered creepy, don't do it, especially if you're talking over texts, online, or in a public place, and/or if you have not established clear rapport yet. Even if you have, be careful.
I see way too many older guys who do have chances with younger women completely blow it by being too creepy, too verbally sexual, way too fast.
Mistake Number 3: Not Paying Attention To Personal Appearance
I've already addressed this point before, including in one of the links above, so I'm just going to summarize it here.
Some older guys think they can wing it with their personal appearance and look just like a normal, every day guy just like they did back when they were 25. These guys dress like nerds, have hair and grooming that look like crap, and worse, are often way too skinny or fat.
Back when you were 25, sure. You could dress like crap and not worry about your hair or your clothing too much, and still probably get laid. But if you're 44 years old hitting up 21 year-old women, I'm sorry, but you're going to have to step it up a little. Being fat, or having hair grow out of the side of your neck, or dressing in styles that were outdated 20 years ago might be perfectly okay for provider-hunting women your age, but it won't be okay for the younger ones.
You must take care of your physical appearance more than you did when you were a younger dude. This includes your body and clothing. I've made numerous posts about this lately, so click around this blog and take a look at a few if you have not read them yet.
Now look. This does not mean you need to look like George Clooney. I sure as hell don't, and really didn't back when I was balder and fatter. But it does mean you need to pay attention to your body, grooming, and fashion and place a higher priority on these things if dating much younger women is something you're interested in.
By the way, I think society downplays the awesome superpowers a man has when he's both older and physically attractive. If you're well over age 35 and you're still decent looking, you can pull off some pretty amazing things...things that could never be done by younger men, or men your age who look like typical, dumpy, married beta males.
Good-looking older men really do rule the roost in a very real way. I'm quite serious about this.
Mistake Number 4: Being Limited By Your Own Societal Programming
Some older guys who would really like to date younger women, and be good for them, stop themselves because they have thoughts like...
- I shouldn't date a woman that young. It's just not right.
- No woman that young would ever be attracted to a man my age.
- Everyone will think I'm shallow if I dated a woman that young.
- A relationship with a woman that young would never work. We're in completely different places in life.
These are all thoughts coming directly from Societal Programming. As such, these thoughts are all bullshit. I shall tackle each one:
I shouldn't date a woman that young. It's just not right.
There is absolutely nothing wrong, immoral, or unethical about dating a much younger woman provided these three things are true:
1. She is of legal age of consent where you both live.
2. The relationship is 100% consensual on her part.
3. You are always 100% honest with her, and are not lying to her or leading her on.
If you're being completely, 100% honest with her, and she's willing, and she's legal, go for it. Date all the younger women you want. There is nothing wrong or evil or immoral about it.
Only when one of those three items above are not true do we start having serious problems. So always check ID, always be honest, always make sure it's consensual, and be rewarded with a clear conscience.
No woman that young would ever be attracted to a man my age.
Ohhhhhh, wrongo! There are millions of younger women out there who are dying for a confident, non-creepy, much older man to sweep them off their feet. It's all over the place, and I'm living proof of this, as are many other older guys in the manosphere.
I estimate that at least 15% of younger women are Type 2s. Trust me, these women have a rough time. They sit in class all day long fantasizing about having sex with their 45 year-old algebra teacher, but they can't tell any of their family or their girlfriends because of the ridicule they'd receive. These gals hope beyond hope that someday they can find a (non-creepy!) much older man to fulfill the fantasies they've had all their lives.
True stat from my life: Just under 50% of all the women I've had sex with since I turned 35 years old were age 18 to 23. I'm almost 42 years old now and this has not let up one bit.
Believe me, those women are out there.
Everyone will think I'm shallow if I dated a woman that young.
Sadly, there is some truth to this one. Many over-33 women are going to be utterly furious at you. Men their age dating younger gals is the biggest threat to these women, and many of them can't emotionally handle it. Other men your age, who are married to old, overweight, nonsexual wives may also be upset. (Gee...I wonder why.)
I have two responses to this. The first one is...so what? Outcome independence. If some forty-something shrew glares at you when you walk down the street with your 20 year-old MLTR, that's her problem, not yours. She's more than welcome to go have sex with a 20 year-old guy, and her forty-something girlfriends will give her high-fives and talk about how independent and liberated she is. So fuck 'em. It's all hypocrisy and bullshit Societal Programming anyway.
The second answer to this is that no one said you need to get serious with these women. If you simply want a younger woman as an occasional FB, go ahead. Getting into a super duper serious relationship with an 18 year-old probably isn't a great idea anyway, be it monogamous or open. So don't over think this stuff. Date younger women in whatever capacity you desire. (Just make sure you don't lie to them or lead them on...remember our three rules above.)
A relationship with a woman that young would never work. We'll be in completely different places in life.
First, remember what I just said. You can date younger women, but you don't have to get super duper serious with them. Keeping things casual with these women is perfectly fine (as long as you're honest with them!). Most women this age aren't wanting super serious relationships anyway. As I've talked about before, when a woman is between the ages of 18 and 23, she considers that play time, not serious time.
That being said, I can tell you from vast experience that "being in different places in life" has absolutely nothing to do with how happy a man and woman will be in a relationship, provided the man and woman are attracted to each other and have compatible personalities. If those two things are covered, the "being in different places in life" doesn't matter at all. Here are a few random examples from my life over the past 7-8 years:
1. The longest consistent relationship I have ever had with a woman outside of my nine-year marriage was an almost five-year relationship with a woman I met when she was 19 that lasted until she was 24. She was a FB for a long time, then I later upgraded her to MLTR.
2. One of the most mentally rewarding relationships I ever had was with a woman I dated for about 2 years, while she was 19 and then 20. She was extremely intelligent and amazingly mature for her age, and we had many long, detailed, philosophical discussions that were the equivalent level of discourse as when I date a woman in her 40s.
3. I have had several MLTRs or FBs who were 20 to 23 years old, who lived in her own homes by themselves, owned her own cars, had their own full-time careers, did not have any kids, and paid 100% of all their own bills with zero help from family, government, or ex's.
While this is certainly not the norm for that age range, there are many women out there like this. I have really been blown away by the quality of many younger women out there. "Younger woman" does not necessarily mean "dumb bimbo".
(And yes, many younger women are the opposite, and are indeed dumb bimbos. Great. Keep those at the FB level. They can be fun too. Some of my most fun FBs were in the young dumb bimbo category. They're wonderful.)
Lastly, don't forget that just because you date younger women does not mean you can't keep dating older women too. I have a woman in my life right now who is 44 years old, and she's friggin' fantastic. Unless you choose to live a monogamous lifestyle (cough! puke!), you can date women of all ages, younger and older, and probably should. No reason to limit yourself to one or the other.
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lazy guy 2014-03-01 10:31:28
Great stuff BD -- valuable info and so well communicated. Thanks dude!
jack 2014-03-01 11:28:45
BD, A few questions on another great post: 1) When you date the type 2s, you say you overstress the age difference and go out of your way to not look like a horndog, but do you change the conversation structure? IOW, do you still talk about her dating history for the last 6 months and then her sexual likes / dislikes, etc (your usual pattern)? How sexual do you get with the young ones given you don't want to creep them out? 2) Do you find a difference b/w women 18-24 and 25-30 in their relationship expectations and their willingness to engage in an open relationship or the length of time they are willing to stay in one? I'm thinking that you tailor your overall game a little differently when they are above 24 but still in their 20s. 3) How are you going to deal with the 33+ contingent when out of necessity you'll have to in your late 40s and 50s? My guess is that quick sex will just become rarer as you age as longer courtships are part of the process. Also, I wonder how open 33+ women will be to the offer you present them when you get older. My point with this is that it seems that what makes the Poly lifestyle possible is the fact that girls in their 20s but especially between 18-24 are in no rush to settle down. Its their openness, which declines with age, that makes the poly lifestyle possible. Hefner is constantly doing this with 20-something women. But he's Hefner, so he was able to push this to his 80s. But for the rest of us? Anyway, its amazing what you've been able to do so far. I'm curious about going forward though.
Blackdragon 2014-03-01 12:02:21
1) When you date the type 2s, you say you overstress the age difference and go out of your way to not look like a horndog, but do you change the conversation structure? IOW, do you still talk about her dating history for the last 6 months and then her sexual likes / dislikes, etc (your usual pattern)? How sexual do you get with the young ones given you don’t want to creep them out?I still talk about sex and do all the usual stuff. I just dial it down a little. I don't push the envelope in any way. If she seems like she doesn't want to talk about it, I'll relent and talk about something else (whereas if she's over age 23 I will push it and get her to talk about it anyway). I let her guide me as to how sexual (or not) she wishes to become in conversation, rather than forcefully taking charge of the conversation as I usually do. But I will still attempt all the usual sexual talk, etc.
2) Do you find a difference b/w women 18-24 and 25-30 in their relationship expectations and their willingness to engage in an open relationship or the length of time they are willing to stay in one?Yes, but only very generally and there are many exceptions to the rule. Speaking IN GENERAL, younger women get into open relationships faster and easier but tend to be more dramatic and jealous in those relationships. IN GENERAL older women are the opposite; they are a little more reluctant to get into an open relationship and require a little more patience and hand-holding during the initial phases, but once they're in the relationship they have an easier time of it and tend to enjoy it more. Trust me, most women in their 30s are very tired of "relationships as usual", even if they don't realize it. But again, there are many, many exceptions to both those generalizations.
I’m thinking that you tailor your overall game a little differently when they are above 24 but still in their 20s.Actually I don't. In terms of creating FB/MLTR relationships, I don't do anything differently from women age 18 to about age 27 or 28. Once I get to age 28-29 then I may make small calibrations based on what I said above.
3) How are you going to deal with the 33+ contingent when out of necessity you’ll have to in your late 40s and 50s?I already deal with them now. Like I said, I have a woman in my life right now who is 44. Working on another who is 34. There's a third woman who's 41 I have my eye on. No problem. Just follow rule number one: Don't COLD APPROACH women over age 33. You can DATE women over 33, that's perfecly fine, you just can't cold approach them. That means if you want women over 33 you should meet them within your social circle instead of daygame or on a dating site.
My guess is that quick sex will just become rarer as you age as longer courtships are part of the process. Also, I wonder how open 33+ women will be to the offer you present them when you get older. My point with this is that it seems that what makes the Poly lifestyle possible is the fact that girls in their 20s but especially between 18-24 are in no rush to settle down. Its their openness, which declines with age, that makes the poly lifestyle possible. Hefner is constantly doing this with 20-something women. But he’s Hefner, so he was able to push this to his 80s. But for the rest of us? Anyway, its amazing what you’ve been able to do so far. I’m curious about going forward though."Women in their 30s won't agree do open relationships" is a myth, as I pointed out in Excuse #42 right here. They do, and as I said above they are often happier once they're in one than younger women. In terms of speed to sex, you're right, it will take more time for women over 33 assuming you are also over age 33. No getting around that. In terms of my age and getting older, when I was in my 30s, there were guys who said, "Well, yeah, you can do all this stuff now...but I'd like to see you do all this stuff when you're in your 40s!" Well, I'm almost 42 and there has been no difference whatsoever, both in the relationships I have and the age of the women I date. Honestly, the only difference is that the women I date tend to be even hotter than before. It will be the same when I'm 45. When I'm 50, I may have to push my game up to women in their early to mid 20s, which is fine. Hopefully I'll be in an OLTR by then so it will be much less of an issue. (Also, I have slowly started to gravitate away from women under 21, but I've been doing that by choice and preference, not because I had to.) I know plenty of men well into their 50s who have relationships like this, both with much younger women and women over 33. It isn't as difficult as Societal Programming teaches, provided you're doing everything right.
Sparks 2014-03-02 10:38:54
Yeah I definitely have been guilty of #1 but recently I've started to tell the truth about my age. Last night I bumped into a couple of girls I was involved with last year (20 & 22) and told both of them my real age (37). They both said they were surprised but it wouldn't stop them dating me again. The 20 year-old (solid 8 with a great ass) actually seemed a little turned on to learn I'm older than she thought and even admitted she's getting a little annoyed with her monogamous boyfriend (23) and if they did split up would I still be interested. I still need to lie on the dating sites though to get round their stupid age restrictions.
SonofBD 2014-03-02 11:27:24
Out of curiosity, in this digital world - I know that I personally hear a lot about "catfishing". Is this a serious problem any of you have run into? Or, like a decent amount of "issues", is it a media driven agenda? Good-looking older men really do rule the roost in a very real way. I’m quite serious about this. - Good thing I'm going to age graciously. 🙂
Blackdragon 2014-03-02 16:34:44
Out of curiosity, in this digital world – I know that I personally hear a lot about “catfishing”. Is this a serious problem any of you have run into? Or, like a decent amount of “issues”, is it a media driven agenda?I meet women on very quick, casual, cheap first dates and spend almost zero time witht them "online". Once in real life you can figure out if she's real or fake pretty quick. I've never had a problem.
Good thing I’m going to age graciously.Keep taking vitamins!
Bo 2014-03-02 17:22:42
As an intelligent older male, what do you suggest fluff talking about? Most women under 30 (even if college educated) are dumb as rocks and convo can be challenging. Or do you suggest sticking to the younger women (types 2 and 4 obviously) who display uncommon smarts/intellectual curiosity?
Kurt 2014-03-02 17:51:35
"In terms of speed to sex, you’re right, it will take more time for women over 33 assuming you are also over age 33. No getting around that." Interesting. I'm a little bit older than you BD, and certainly not as experienced or expert as you in these matters, but I seem to find that the over 33 crowd are as fast to sex as the best of them, provided I'm doing this through social circle or a warm approach that is status-enhanced or social-proofed to some degree (with other colder approaches I totally agree, waste of time, with one situational exception I can sometimes exploit that is somewhat unique to my location and status). I suppose it could be my approaches are actually warmer than I think and these women already have the hots for me. Do you experience a lot of variability in this or is it a pretty hard and fast rule with you regarding speed to sex and over 33? If you do see variability do you have a hunch as to the causes?
Blackdragon 2014-03-02 19:32:00
As an intelligent older male, what do you suggest fluff talking about? Most women under 30 (even if college educated) are dumb as rocks and convo can be challenging.The same things I talk about with older women. In general my first-date conversation flows from random stuff (safe topics like family, work, etc), to her past relationships, to sex. This is regardless of the woman's age.
Or do you suggest sticking to the younger women (types 2 and 4 obviously) who display uncommon smarts/intellectual curiosity?Nope. That would be screening and I don't screen. Feel free to screen for more intelligent women if you wish, but I would never do that. I want to have sex with hot chicks...categorizing the relationship based on her intellect comes later.
I seem to find that the over 33 crowd are as fast to sex as the best of them, provided I’m doing this through social circle or a warm approachYes, I've said many times that you can sleep with over-33s very fast if you exclusively use social circle game to find them. I've done this often. When I say slower-sex, I'm talking about cold approach with over-33s, namely online game and daygame.
lazy guy 2014-03-03 15:03:22
BD, I just clicked the link and read your old post about not screening women. Maybe an important factor is missing from that discussion -- a reason why guys are inclined to "screen" potential lovers: Maybe most of us guys have been brainwashed to anticipate that as soon as we have sex with a woman, she will expect the two of us to have some ongoing exclusive relationship, and most of us guys have no training about how to finesse that expectation, and we're too ready to feel guilty (and/or worried about losing a lover) if she is upset because we are not going along with her expectations. I think Robert Green (No More Mr. Nice Guy) says many men are afraid to start anything with a woman, because many men are confused about their options on how to end things with a woman (without undue guilt, regret, etc.). BD, I write this to you not so I can say 'Aha, BD isn't always perfect!', but rather to solicit your comments on this point, because I bet you've got some great advice about this.
Blackdragon 2014-03-03 16:29:40
That's a little off-topic for this post, but if a man suffered from that condition, he needs to get his head straight fast, since it's the opposite of reality. Most women under 33 don't want to leap into a serious exclusive relationship after having sex with a new guy. This is why the vast majority of monogamous relationships are initiated by the man, not the woman.
anotheronetakesthepill 2014-03-03 17:08:45
3 years ago being just over 30 I pulled an 18 y.o. that didn't last because of my beta days and her hypergamy. Now 3 years later, I have another 18 year old throwing me IOIs, discussing her past flings, inviting me to hang out with strange excuses. She asked about my past girls and I just told her: "Well it didn't work with the last one. She probably was too young. By the way which year are you? 95? Oh well she was 94, I thought you were in the same age but you are younger." It always has worked well for me to show them I have already been with someone 13 years younger and hint that I won't ever do that again ... but just hinting cause they usually think "I'm gonna prove to him that not all 18 year old chicks are the same"
anotheronetakesthepill 2014-03-03 17:11:45
And I have to add I don't look for these women. It's not that I'm specially interested in dating them. But they have something, call it youth, lack of baggage, freshness of spirit and I am really enjoying it although sometimes it can be a little strange when their lack of matureness shows up. As OP I never play the young guy act. I never lie about my age and I don't care about age gap. They can become crazy at any age so it's better to take them while they still are fun.
PUA Brian Kinney 2014-03-03 17:32:21
This post is a custom tailored suit because I'm 29, and that's great for me. You mentioned in a older post that VYW2 are only the 20%, so following your logic on Mistake 1, I'd rather ask myself: why complicating things to give VYW2 what they crave (an alpha older man) when I can give THE OTHER 80% what they crave; an also confident, sexy, strong, FUN, alpha man but with a younger vibe? Because I know I can do this on my 30's. My dad is 62 years old and you can't see a single gray hair in his head, same with my grandpa until he was 70. So I can relate to those guys who tells you that they feel young and have a young vibe (and of course are not clowns). I agree on that logic but once you hit 40's and even then... Also, I think that the term "older guy" is ambiguous, I'll be 30 in October and I don't see myself as an older guy and there is a clear difference between me and a 60 year old guy with shitty genetics. I don't like the two categories: Younger men under 30 and older men from 30 to 80, every decade must be studied separately, by the way, what decade in you opinion is "the golden decade for success with women" considering you take care of all important factors the same? (health, money, game, etc). My bet is the 30's. And, what's wrong with men on their 30's in the club scene? I payed my career as a barman and men in their 30's don't look ridiculous in a club, they're the people that looks more confident, attractive and with higher status than all those guys in their 20's that can't even afford a bottle or are to shitty scared to talk to girls and also look more ridiculous because getting drunk is all they care about. PUA Brian Kinney
Blackdragon 2014-03-03 23:19:01
why complicating things to give VYW2 what they crave (an alpha older man) when I can give THE OTHER 80% what they crave; an also confident, sexy, strong, FUN, alpha man but with a younger vibe?The simple answer is because Type 1s aren't going to fuck you at all, ever, no matter how good you are, and those make up at least 25%-30% of VYW. So what makes sense to me is to do the opposite of what you're doing...calibrate my game for the type 2s and type 3s, not the type 1s and 3s.
Also, I think that the term “older guy” is ambiguous, I’ll be 30 in October and I don’t see myself as an older guy and there is a clear difference between me and a 60 year old guy with shitty genetics.Agree. I should probably break down the different age ranges for men more specifically on future posts.
by the way, what decade in you opinion is “the golden decade for success with women” considering you take care of all important factors the same? (health, money, game, etc). My bet is the 30′s.Close. It's late 30s. I think a man peaks for that stuff at around age 37. Assuming he hasn't let himself get fat or dumpy, at age 37 a man is older, which means he's confident and has achieved some things, but he's not yet "old", and still young enough be very attractive and very fit. Style used to call it "old enough to do it right but still young enough to do it often." My goal for my physical appearance is to look as close as possible to age 37 for the rest of my life. I don't want to look 25...I've never wanted to look 25...I want to look 37.
And, what’s wrong with men on their 30′s in the club scene?A good looking guy who is 32 would probably be fine. I was talking more about dudes in their 40s (or 30s who look like 40s) who look very out of place there. Like you said, there are more than two categories.
Sparks 2014-03-04 07:12:12
BD you estimate that at least 15% of VYW are Type 2's. In my experience it's even higher than that, perhaps up to 30%. I can only think of one VYW ever that turned me down on age and I've been dating VYW almost exclusively since I was 25. And even the one that said no still seemed to want something from me because she continued to text me for a few weeks. Interesting too that you reckon 37 to be the best age for success with women. I would tend to agree - the interest I get from VYW has never been higher (thanks mainly to BD advice). In fact the 8 I mentioned in my earlier post is easily the hottest woman I've ever attracted and we first got together on my 37th birthday last year.
Blackdragon 2014-03-04 10:00:51
BD you estimate that at least 15% of VYW are Type 2′s. In my experience it’s even higher than that, perhaps up to 30%.You might be right. It could be that high. I don't think so, because over-age-35 guys who are very good at attracting much younger women may get a skewed perception of how many Type 2s there are out there. Also, based on my experience, you'll probably be able to meet more Type 2s via daygame rather than online game, since online women's shields are up a little higher. Most of my experience is online game, but when I did daygame my VYW results were quite good. So if your primary method is daygame, you may be hitting percentages well higher than 15%. Also remember that if you have very solid game and look good, many Type 3s will appear to you as Type 2s.
PUA Brian Kinney 2014-03-04 11:32:06
"My goal for my physical appearance is to look as close as possible to age 37 for the rest of my life." Good luck with that, my goal is to look as young as I can while I can and I have solid knowledge to achieve that. Here's my way to say than you for all your help, is simply the best of the best, you're a man of reliable data so here you can do your search: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ 1.Aloe Vera: The plant of immortality and Cleopatra's secret. Please use organic Aloe Vera it is easy to extract the gel inside the plant. 2. Cocoa (no sugar): The Best Natural Anti-Aging Drink, green tea is the second best and you can drink both for best results. 3. The man's best friends: L-Arginine, Maca and Horny Goat Weed. 4. Omega-3s: To share a really healthy heart. 5. Red wine: Not everything is so hard. Being fat always adds years to your appearance, And I have to tell you that at least for a while until you lose those extra pounds the paleolithic diet is tha shiznit, besides nothing more alpha than eating just raw vegetables fruits and meat like a caveman. Sleep, eat, exercise, love and ALWAYS use sunscreen. Impossible is Nothing PUA Brian Kinney
Greg 2014-03-07 17:38:32
I'm an older guy (49) who does day game and look nothing like my age, plus am into music and pop culture stuff that people half my age and younger are into, not from trying to act like a younger person, but because I just tend to get on way better with most people who are younger. It's probably to do with not having any kids and never having married, as I don't believe in legalised marriage. Even if you're fit and regularly exercise, if you find out about pickup at an older age, you definitely need to work on mastering your inner game about 10 times more than what guys in their 20s and early 30s do. Even if you look after yourself, regularly exercise and look nothing like your age, day game for an older guy is quite challenging, in that unlike at night, most women are under a time constraint and/or have things to do, so it can be frustrating. This is probably why hardly any older guys do day game. I sometimes do it with wingmen who are much younger, but they don't know my real age and I prefer to keep it that way, as they'd probably not want to go out with me, if I told them. I try approaching girls who look like they're at least 20, but sometimes I approach ones, who when you look closer at them while they talk, are probably 18 or 19, but looked a bit older initially. With these girls and also with some in their early 20s, upon sensing that you're not within 5 years of their age, they either soon get weirded out from not having been approached before and/or from not having good enough social skills to converse. These type of responses have nothing to do with me having screwed anything up, or having done the approach wrong, compared to girls who appreciate the compliment of me having gone direct in my approach and saying say they're not interested and/or that they have a boyfriend. Women aged 35 and over who are reasonably attractive and look after themselves, are much harder to come across in the day.
James 2014-03-08 01:38:00
Comment deleted for violation of the 5 Simple Rules
Sparks 2014-03-08 05:48:17
@ James Stop trolling. An 18/19/20 year old woman is not a child. In my country a person aged 18 and over is legally considered an adult. And there are many VYW out there that are really into guys in their 30's or 40's.
jack 2014-03-08 11:56:29
Greg, Interesting comment. It matches my experience as well (I'm also over 40). Young men don't realize how easy they have it with women. Their age alone generates attraction. All a young man has to do is optimize his physique and his clothing style, get out of his parents house, overcome approach anxiety, learn how to eliminate anti-game, approach approach approach, and be bold and physically aggressive. That's it. If a young man does that and approaches 20+ girls a week, at the end of a couple of years he should have all the abundance he wants. For older men things get harder. You need both outer and inner game if you want young girls. I'm curious Greg, what type of success are you having with daygame, and with what type of girls? The only person in the PUA sphere that is 45+ and gets young women through game is the Lovesystems coach Jeff Bullet. Other than that, I have yet to see any examples of older guys pulling off daygame with younger women.
jack 2014-03-08 12:02:52
Women aged 35 and over who are reasonably attractive and look after themselves, are much harder to come across in the day. I had to comment on this. F*ck, if this aint the truth. In American anyway. Its hard to find single women over 35 during the day. You just don't encounter enough of them to make daygame work; because daygame is a numbers game. You'd have to hit on 10 of these women a week to give you good enough odds at getting laid with daygame. I do not see anywhere near 500 attractive 35+ single women during the day in a year's time frame. That's why I said in another comment that if when I was young I knew of direct stop daygame I would have approached the Eastern seaboard of the United States. It constantly amazes me how few young men actually do daygame. It is the easiest and cheapest form of game out there.
James 2014-03-08 15:50:15
Comment deleted for violation of the 5 Simple Rules
Blackdragon 2014-03-08 16:05:22
Young men don’t realize how easy they have it with women. Their age alone generates attraction.I would argue their similar age generates comfort, not attraction. It's simply the lack of a barrier, not a benefit.
jack 2014-03-08 20:14:38
I would argue their similar age generates comfort, not attraction. It’s simply the lack of a barrier, not a benefit. You're right in one sense, but I have heard many women describe how they feel a visceral attraction for young hot guys. One woman described it as if her "womb was crying out for him". She showed me a picture of the guy. He was slightly above average in the face. But he was 23 and ripped and 6' tall. Think of the way that you feel when you see that 18-23 year old hottie. Your body feels a stronger sexual attraction then if you were to see a really hot 35 year old MILF. Your body has cravings. I think its the same with women. That's what I mean when I say youth has value in and of itself. Lastly, check out Krauser's post on his 2013 lay statistics. Especially the comments. Alot there jibes with what I have seen regarding young women and young men. What you and Krauser are doing is enormously impressive, each in your own way and your own niche. But a 25 year old who is 6-8% body fat and 6'-6'4" *and* game aware can put up numbers that older non-famous men just can't. And if numbers aren't your thing, that young ripped kid will be able to get the hot 8s 9s and 10s before the older guys if they are both competing for the same girl. That doesn't mean older guys can't get hot young girls. It just means that it is an order of magnitude harder.
Greg 2014-03-08 23:08:45
With hotter women aged 35 and over, who look after themselves and haven't let themselves go (but who are pursued by guys in their age range and also by younger ones), they are around in the day if you have time to do day game, but you probably need to also do night game on Friday and Saturday nights and go to bars, clubs, as some do go to them with female friends. It may be pay based to be able to send messages out, but another avenue is the Cougar Life site. Put your age as younger, if you can get away with it. If using it, you better be a guy who looks after himself, has his shit together, follows a healthy diet, eschews all junk food, is fit and works out at least 4 times a week, as you'll have competition with younger guys who are fit, work out and some of whom have 6 packs. I don't have a 6 pack myself, which is basically 98% following a very strict diet and working out at least 5 days a week regularly. It's surprising how incredibly badly written, the male profiles on CL are, after perusing them under a fake female profile, which is the only way to do so. I haven't used CL, but I'm tempted to. I've messaged Jeff Bullet, but he charges $US 3000 for coaching for older guys, which is way too exobirtant.
Blackdragon 2014-03-08 23:49:16
You’re right in one sense, but I have heard many women describe how they feel a visceral attraction for young hot guys.Empahsis on the word "hot". I'm quite sure a a good-looking 40 year-old guy with six pack abs and a full head of hair (what few there are), wouldn't have very much trouble with those younger women either. Some trouble, yes, but not very much.
I’ve messaged Jeff Bullet, but he charges $US 3000 for coaching for older guys, which is way too exobirtant.I have strongly considered setting up a little side business that completely focuses on teaching over-40 guys how to date; younger women or otherwise. Clearly there is a market for this, and I wouldn't have to charge $3000 either (thought I would still charge quite a bit). Oh, if only I had the time!
Greg 2014-03-10 02:35:34
There needs to be a video product, or a video series, like what the Asian American guys behind Simple Pickup - Project Go do in their stuff.
Just Saying 2014-03-10 07:44:16
As a 50+ yr old man, most of the women I see regularly are in the 18-25 age range. The reason for that is simple - they aren't looking for anything long term, and neither am I. Now my "technique" is much different from what I employed when I was in my 20's and 30's. My biggest problem is making sure that the women meet the minimum age requirement of 18, since you cannot trust young women when they want something/someone. My biggest reason for not dating older women, is they invariably tend to want to pursue things from a more permanent perspective, which isn't what I am looking for. So while there are some wonderful women out their who are older than 25, I have found that 25 tends to be the age at which they will start to argue to themselves that "this can work". Of course, from their perspective, I have several businesses and a great income, I have education out the wazoo, and I meet their laundry list of things, that now that they are hitting the wall, they are starting to consider marriage as their number one priority - but it isn't mine. I still want to enjoy life. When I am in my 60's or when things stop working for me, maybe my views will change. But I cannot see myself ever subjecting myself to the marriage-grinder that is the US. I will more likely retire to some Asian country, and have a slew of kids with young women who do not seek marriage. And all I need is a DNA test to verify the kid is mine, and young willing women. As long as I get them in the US, I see no need to change my life. When I can not longer get them here, I will go where I can. Life is simple, it is people who complicate it.
Blackdragon 2014-03-10 10:04:13
As a 50+ yr old man, most of the women I see regularly are in the 18-25 age range.Is your approach similar to mine? I.E. confident, non-direct online game? Or different?
Taylor 2014-07-05 10:12:51
Good advice. I have a 22 year old roommate who parties pretty hard. He brought over some 19 year old chick with a bunch of his friends. After sitting with them for a while she plunked her but down right beside me and we got talking. She went to the bathroom and i didnt want to p.ss anyone off so i asked whos girlfriend she was. They said nobody. I asked if anyone was trying to get with her and they said no. She came back and i just hit her with it. "so i hear your single. Your cute whats your phone number". She asked if i knew how old she was and i flatly said i didnt care but she could tell me if she wanted. She told me she was 19 and i said thats great whats your number. Half an hour later i asked her to kiss me and she did. My roommate and his buddies were floored at the speed and brutal efficiency with which this 37 year old guy closed in on this 19 year old. Then my roommate says hes going out with her in a few days and hes going to try to get with her. I say ok ill back off for a bit let me know how it goes. He comes back and says that theyre just going to be friends so i say okay fair game. Next week he again brings a bunch of friends and she shows up with them. Obviously my roommate is still trying to get with her, dragging her off alone. Whenever she hits the bathroom he asks me to come join them. I do, and the roommate keeps bringing her someplace else, or if its his room he asks me politely to leave after a while and i have no issue but its getting annoying the girl obviously is wanting on me. She even wakes me up later that night and has a smoke with me, then jumps into my bed. Tells me and my room mate that she wants to share my bed with me. Roommate again tries to get her away from me and gets her to go back into his room. Then she invites me to come along. Guy not getting the hint. Again after a bit he asks me for some privacy and i say no problem. Im chilling and girl comes back and says hes nearly asleep, when he falls asleep she will come and crawl into bed with me. She does. We bang three times. Cant remember the type in your chart but she openly admits she likes older guys and asks me for a FB arrangement, which i of course oblige. Says her problem is dudes she sleeps with fall in love with her and she has no interest in a relationship, the sex is just fun. Offers to dress up like a schoolgirl for me whole nine yards. The point of all this story is this. The roommates game was obviously way too mushy. I saw it before my very eyes. He was friendzoned probably the moment he tried. None of these younger dudes had the balls to make the straight up ask. I was like that back then. They also didnt recognize that this girl was just a party girl who wanted to get crazy sometimes. They were caught up thinking that they needed to get her to love them in order to f.uck them. In reality she doesnt want to be in love with anyone. Also, the speed and veracity with which i got her number and kissed her probably made the roommate this she was desperate or easy so he figured he would make a move afterwards. In reality once i land her number and kiss her theres no reason i should have to back off, he should have just moved onto another, but i knew what that girl was after and i figured she was just getting together with him and hanging out to get near me. She has a thing for older guys and she told me straight out. There are definitely girls like this out there. Thank god for that. 🙂
Alan Wright 2014-07-23 09:24:46
If an older guy wants to date younger women it is his right to do so and none of anyone else's business. but I believe the only mistake older men made was DATING A YOUNG GIRL; many young girls want older men just for money and comfort and not out of sincere feelings for him. the older men often have money and wisdom they can give the young girls, but many of the young girls have nothing to offer but a self centered attitude, mistakenly thinking they are doing the "old man" a favor just by allowing him to be seen with her, but if he has the wisdom and money to spend on her, then he is in actuality the one doing her a favor. but most people in the rest of the world only see looks, so they would feel sorry for her and feel like he's a lucky old geaser, not realizing that that young attractive woman is probably not even having sex with him often, or maybe not even at all, or not the kind of sex he even really enjoys, while in the mean time she gets fancy dinners at expensive restaurants, special treatment, in some cases diamond jewelry and her bills paid. then she will probably cheat on him or leave him for a young handsome man when she get's bored and has drained him of enough of his money. Then the world will say: "what did that old slug think was going to happen, the nerve of him to try and use that poor girl's youth up."
Taylor 2014-08-21 12:45:19
Back again @ Alan Wright I totally disagree with you. Younger women with older guys arent just out for their money. The 19 year old I banged as described above didnt cost me a penny, well maybe a cigarette after she ran out. -- I'm now banging a 25 year old (12 years younger than I) and in the beginnings of a relationship with her. What she says she likes is: a. That I dont act jealous needy or insecure b. That I'm not all mushy and pushing to get serious too quickly or to get the label c. That I'm so relaxed about everything d. That I'm not prone to acting stupid or flying off the handle like the younger guys. She is a VYW Type 3. Never been with an older guy before, only guys within a year or two of her age. I actually picked her up at a bar day game at 3 in the afternoon on a Wednesday and she had a boyfriend (who is now history). Been having a blast.
Chris 2014-09-05 18:41:57
43 attracted to 23 year old. Just hard to figure which type she is in herself. She's mature beyond her years and have spent a little time hanging out on occasion and having text conversations , but mostly work related. Would a type 1 do this? Guess, I've been out if game too long to be able to read her
Brett 2014-09-21 15:15:51
Great advice. I am with a younger woman now for 11 years, married for 10, two little ones and two dogs. I broke the rule of keeping it casual. I was raised with the social and religious hangups that took me a lifetime to overcome. Surprised I dated as much as I did. I will say that this type dating is not generally typical of everyone and should not be misunderstood. Not everyone would be happy just as not everyone is happy being forced into other types of relationships. Try as I might I could not date women my own age and I dont like to be alone either lol. I was in amazing shape, well groomed, reasonably well employed in military but not a big player. In hindsight, dating years longer allowing her freedom to grow would have been better. The only bad thing I have to say after all this time is how difficult some people made our lives that did not approve. It was really all about them, others and they. It is a deep regret but our being together was just too amazing. It is still hard after all this time. I have often thought of moving to anywhere else in the world because it isnt such a big deal. I find women of all ages attractive so it really has been an enigma how leading up to my marriage younger women were there and available and the others were absent. I adore the mature, brainy, sensual type 2's. Dating should never be a competition, ever because it makes people think we are insincere and toxic towards younger women. Also, if you have to part ways do your best to be graceful about it even if it has past that point. That will make a world of difference.
Shandel Bigger 2014-09-22 20:54:58
My bf is 35 and likes to hang out with party girls who are 20. I am 25 and very hurt about his ongoing friendships with young ladies.
Mark 2014-10-14 15:04:17
Great article....and it does set the record straight with me. I still think that younger women are attracted to older men because older men will typically represent a thicker wallet....but that's just me :-). The bottom line is that you are probably very right in that about half the available women out there have no qualms about dating older men...even men who are only marginally older (i.e. a 35 year old woman dating a 55 year old man). What do you mean by "ASD" though? You mentioned it when you were talking about Type 1 women being totally turned off by older men....even if the man is only 30 etc.
Mark 2014-10-14 15:09:04
@Shandel Bigger: If your boyfriend is ignoring you, or spending more time with even younger women than you, then there is either a problem with your relationship, or he has issues. You can try testing the strength of the relationship and see what his reaction when you chat with other guys....particularly men who are younger than 35. But if you're 25 years old I hardly think you have to worry. If he's having a problem with commitment at 35 years old then you may need to find someone who is more mature...at least emotionally (not necessarily physically).
Blackdragon 2014-10-15 21:46:21
What do you mean by “ASD” though? You mentioned it when you were talking about Type 1 women being totally turned off by older men….even if the man is only 30 etc.Look it up in the glossary right here.
Shadix 2014-12-14 16:25:16
I find it hard to believe your statistic where 20% of young women are grossed out by the idea of dating any guy more than 4-5 years older than them. I very much doubt that many 22-23 year olds consider a 27-28 year old to be an "older guy". And I'm not sure if a 30 year old guy should be in the same category as a 49 year old guy. I would argue that many women in their 20s would not even consider a guy in his early 30s to be an "older guy". Also I'm not sure 22-23 year old should be in the same category as 18-19 year olds. By that age they have matured a lot and I think they tend to be much more open to dating older men than those girls fresh out of high school. Perhaps the VYW category should only include 18-20 year olds?
Shadix 2014-12-14 17:04:18
Those of you saying that a younger man's age alone causes women to be attracted to them, that seems to be a stereotype these days because of porn and the media, but it is pretty much bs. If a 20 year old guy and a 35 year old guy are both tall and ripped and have attractive facial features, girls would not be more attracted to the 20 year old just because of his age. I actually imagine it would be the other way around; there are more girls would be turned on by the older guy's age. With women over 25, it would be no contest, since many women would actually be turned off by the younger guy's age. Sure there are some who have a younger guy fetish, but from what I've seen this is a minority. If you bump the guy's age up to 45, more of the younger women might be turned off by the older guy's age, but among women 30+ he would still win hands down. The mistake many people make is that they assume that younger guys are automatically gorgeous. This is not the case. Most guys under 30 are just average. Most women are not attracted to average guys based on looks alone, even if they are tall and ripped. Actually, I would go as far as to say that a 40 year old guy who is not tall and does not have a ripped body but has an attractive looking face would get much more attention than a 25 year old who is tall and ripped but has an average looking face.
Marvin 2015-01-23 13:27:14
I got back into the dating world when i was in my early 40s. I found the 40 year old women were usually just out of a divorce and bitter (my experiences anyway). Those in their 30s were looking for a stable relationship (easiest to have a sexual relationship with), and those in their 20s like to have fun (not just sex and never right away). As I got older the age of my dates pretty much stayed the same. I believe I am fairly good looking but certainly not buff. I live OK but not rich. Being in Los Angeles I found plenty of beautiful women in every category. I found the most important thing was to treat them all with respect and as nice as possible. I make them think they are the only woman in the world and I only want to spend time with them. I never mention guy friends or guy activities because at the moment she is the center of my attention. So many guys in their 20s (and even 30s) are jerks who just want sex and don't know how to treat a lady. I eventually met a beautiful girl who was 19 and I was 56. Beauty pageant winner, model, you know, the ultimate fantasy girl but in real life (they do exist). We have been together for 8 years now. It does get more difficult to maintain a relationship with that amount of age difference as you get older, but it can be done. If I can do it I am sure many of you other guys can too.
Jack 2015-01-23 13:40:50
I was chapter adviser for my old fraternity who was having a party. I was 54 at the time and probably stood out as being the old guy and why is he here. There were a bunch of sorority girls at the other end of the room. It appeared that a couple of them were pledging. They talked and one walked across the room to be and put her finger to her lips like "hush" and then put her finger across mine. She took me by the hand to the rest room. Not to get graphic, it was incredible and not a word was said. She was 18 or 19. I don't know or care what type she was. I was probably just a sorority stunt, but who cares. no, never saw her again. Didn't get her number (or her name for that matter). Just a great memory.
aimoo 2015-01-26 20:50:14
“Younger woman” does not necessarily mean “dumb bimbo”. WOW I am a type 2 and all I'm gonna say is THANK YOU. It's strange I even came across this.. sometimes I'm interested in what it is I find so attracting about older men the more I get backlash for it. This article, although you seem to be too loose a dater for my personal preference, I can relate to. It's also difficult being able to express this to people considering I get just as much ridicule than I'm sure you do for dating these girls. Is it that hard to believe that there is no weird ulterior motive behind me going on a date with a man 17 years my junior? I pay for my share of the tab, I turn down opportunities for these men to buy me things, etc. I just genuinely have a hard time feeling attracted to men my age. YES I'm just as excited to have a casual date with a guy be it strictly for some one time fun or something more than that. And NO this does not include me gaining anything in material value from that occasion other than a quick bang or developing an intimate relationship w/ something I care about and would like to get to know better depending on how we hit it off.. but if I'm positively sure of one thing, it's that those I am physically as well as mentally attracted to are at least 8 yrs older than my age group. Just the way it is
aimoo 2015-01-26 20:53:21
** Senior. Whoops
Kate 2015-02-16 01:30:05
Comment deleted for violation of Rule Number One and Rule Number Three.
Liam 2015-03-21 16:33:06
Just a question, I have decent game but I temd to drag things out with flirting so im curious as to your aproach...I'm 38 good looking and looking to hook up with let's say 19-25 year old women. What is a good ice breaker and segway into going on a date and potentially sleeping with them right away? meaning in no more than 2 weeks or less. Thanks for your time.
Blackdragon 2015-03-22 11:01:32
Just follow my usual dating advice. One quick first date that lasts about an hour where you have a sexual vibe but don't kiss or have sex. Then a second date where she comes over to your place and you escalate to sex. How to ask a younger woman on a date? Be very non-creepy, non-threatening, and very outcome independent. "We should meet up at the mall and hang out. If anything, we could just end up as friends." I have a feeling you're purposely dragging out the process because, like a lot of men, you like to flirt and talk. Personally, I like to have sex first, then build the relationship. Doing it the other way around doesn't make any sense to me.
Liam 2015-03-22 11:06:40
Cool, thanks for the tip.
Arden 2015-04-14 17:04:04
I'm a 18 year old girl and definitely a type 2. I dated the high school boys; they fall in love to quickly. I've dated the men who are 35 and act like they're 20, and they fall in love just as easily as the boys. Sometimes girls my age are just looking for someone who understands 'no strings' and doesn't play games, if you can demonstrate that you're that man any type two will sleep with you. Recently I've been sleeping with a bartender from my work he's 55 and has a certain 'je ne sais quoi", somewhere between the rough hands, no bullshit, and assertive demeanour I've learned I'll never go back. And that is the last thing, if you think you won't connect with girls my age you are wrong, I'm twice as independent and intelligent as any thirty year old and guaranteed you will find a someone just like me who could give you a run for your money, intellectually and sexually.
Liam 2015-04-14 17:43:34
I applaud you Arden
David 2015-05-10 08:10:02
Have pretty extensive experience in this and mostly agree. THE most important factor is to be honest with them. Be honest about what you like, and what you want from them. I don't think you expand or contract your natural creepiness -- if something comes into your mind, blurt it out. Don't be a sucker, but it's not wrong to pay for some things obviously. Still, make 100% sure the relationship isn't about money. I am currently 51 and over the past few years have dated 40, 36, 22, 20, 20, 31 and now 18 year olds. If anything, the 18 is a keeper. She turns 19 next month. It's really fine -- why my post-menopausal contemporaries so utterly disapprove (and for sure they do) is beyond me. She has a personality, is slim with long black hair, does yoga, is smart, quick to laugh and slow to take offense, and not at all embarrassing. She's not messed up and has a perfectly normal, intact family with both parents still married and is the oldest of several children. It really not like that Courtney Stodden/ Doug something thing. It's just normal. Age doesn't comes up all that often but it's not an awkward topic either.
Young Guy 2015-05-13 19:29:32
Tangentially related question: What does "creepy" actually mean? I've seen you use it as a negative qualifier a lot, and have a feeling what it means, but don't really know how to explain it or really how to avoid being creepy - when I talk to girls, I sometimes feel like I give off a creepy vibe. I see bitchy feminazis frequently using it to denigrate normal male behavior/sexual desire and just as a general term of abuse for men they don't like, and I find that women who throw the word around a lot tend to be really unpleasant to be with and harbor an obvious resentment for men in general. So could you briefly explain what is creepy, and how do I avoid it? It seems quite subjective: Something an unattractive guy does might be creepy while if Brad Pitt did it, it would be attractive. And in the context of the article, it sounds like older guys tend to be seen as "creepy" for stuff that younger guys could get away with. How does this work?
David 2015-05-14 07:51:44
@Young Guy: "Creepy" is just a catch-all for something they don't really like. I do think, as stated above in this thread, where you may have to risk being perceived as a little creepy in order to get what you want. There's a very fine boundary between "amazing close relationship" and "creepy" and you have to pay attention!
Blackdragon 2015-05-14 10:26:46
What does “creepy” actually mean?Quoted from one of my ebooks: Examples of Confidently Sexual • Asking her a question about the sexual prowess (or lack thereof) of the ex-boyfriend she’s talking about. • Musing about how you like to grab a woman’s hair hard during sex, saying it with a calm smile on your face. • Asking her if she cums vaginally or clitorally while taking about sex. • Confidently talking about how you like bigger asses on women and hate smaller ones. • Confidently and calmly answering any sexual or detailed relationship questions she asks you no matter how personal, and getting explicit with the answers. • Joking about sex or sexual issues (and your jokes are actually witty and funny, not crude and stupid). Examples of Creepy • Clearly staring at her cleavage. • Implying strongly that “we should go back to my place” way too soon in the interaction. • Saying “I bet you like big thick cocks!” and then winking at her. • Saying something sexual then laughing at your own joke. • Talking about weird sexual stuff, like S&M or fisting or sex with animals. • Creepy eye contact that is too strong, boring into her eyes. • Wild eye contact that is too weak, always darting your eyes around the room as you talk. • Clearly leering at other women while on the date. • Body language that is “too interested”. Leaning forward, getting into her face, etc. • Being too eager to talk or to impress her, especially regarding sexual topics (but others as well).
Ron 2015-05-28 16:25:10
To me age is just a number and if a older guy date a very young woman and she is wanting him too then God bless them. I am 51 and most of the younger women I meet say I look like I am in my 30s. I am attractive to this young woman who seems to like me too but I have never had a relationship with someone very younger then me. She is, I believe 19 0r 21 but she has a really cute face and a very mature body! I dated women older then my over my younger years and my ex wife was older then my too. So I would consider it a blessing if I could start dating this younger woman. I am a little worried because it is something new too me but I would treat her like my queen and go as slow as she wants too. All I can do is just be a confident, respectful and very caring man for her. Thanks for your great advice on attracting and dating very young women.
Mike 2015-07-05 16:10:34
Great writeup Dude! This explains so much of what I've experienced the last year being single again after my 15 year marriage. I meet a 24 year old late last year and for the life of me could'nt get over the age gap. It was something like a internal shutdown switch that tripped and could not be reset. Once one realizes that (particularly U.S. American) society has brainwashed us males into believing were doing something wrong, we can get past this bullshit and begin to date whoever, whenever we feel like it. We ourselves are our greatest hinderance or catalyst to dating the person we see fit.
K 2015-07-17 22:54:17
Sorry to crash this party, I am from the other side. I'm a woman in my early 20s attracted to a man in his early 40s. He is also divorced so I'm not ruining a home. He is a former professor of mine (no longer and will not be again so there would be no issues with my school). I have recieved mixed signals from him and I am very confused. He has my phone number and we have texted each other and ran into each other again recently. He has mentioned multiple times that we should meet for drinks but when I have brought it up recently his reply was "Sure". I don't want to waste my time and not to toot my own horn but I usually don't have to work this hard for a man. Is he over it or just taking it slow? Thanks!
Blackdragon 2015-07-18 09:34:45
He sounds nervous / beta. Sadly, you're going to have to take the initiative with him if you want to get anywhere. Just send him a text. "Hey, we should go get a drink on Friday night, like around 7?"
Duncan R.M. Decapolis 2015-07-24 04:28:31
B.D. and others questions/posts have been very informative and inspiring. I simply ran across this site, throwing out something I already knew: That older men are attracted to younger women. I have told others in my defense, that science backs this up; older men attracted to younger women 18 or so, simply because they're more fertile around that time. I, like most of us would simply say they're just hotter. Thanks, Black Dragon for breakdown of types, and general rules, and clarification on creepy vs. Confident. I'm 54, have all my hair of course some gray mixed sun highlights, fair shape(abs/muscular), white, blue eyes, and though age and CA sun have made their indelible inroads, I refuse to give in to what you so eloquently coined " societal norms" I like all women, yes, but 18-24 are the basic parameters for hotness factor. Yes, there's the odd well kempt hot woman in their late 30s and 40s, and the rare Morgan Fairchild, Heather Locklear even older still hot types, but let's face it way more hotter, suppler, vibrant younger women. Thanks again for your site, and all others posts has bolstered me, and also assured me that there's younger women who actually are way more attracted to an older fairly good looking guy in good physical shape(not belly hanging down, or fat guys wearing muscle shirts) Thanks also for the younger female posts, verifying they're not just gold diggers, but just wanna have fun sexually with an older mature man, who knows how to treat a lady!
Lee 2015-07-24 07:07:19
But where are they? where do you find them? that's all I want to know.
Marnie 2015-07-24 16:06:28
Blackdragon 2015-07-30 12:06:56
But where are they? where do you find them? that’s all I want to know.Where all the other younger women are: dating sites and malls.
Mickey 2015-08-01 21:11:36
I'm 21 and i was attracted to older guys because I thought they were more mature than guys my ages.I was very wrong and found all the guys I date was way more immature than me.I'm talking about guys 32-68. For some reason now the thought of guys older than 35 gross me out.
JJ 2015-08-09 16:45:07
Interesting blog! I am a 59 year old man. People are often shocked when I tell them my age and most think I'm in my mid-to-late 40s. I act much younger as well, and kid around a lot. I realize this may be a strike against me. I dress nicely and appropriately for men in their late 40s. When I turned 35, I got 'stuck' there, as far as sexual attraction goes. This may be due, in part, to the fact that my wife also cut me off, sexually, at that time. I've had sex with her, literally, less than 15 times in the last 20 years. I keep myself very fiit and healthy. QUESTION: Realistcally, what age would you say is the youngest (beautiful) woman I can expect to have a long-term relationship (or even marriage) with?
Blackdragon 2015-08-10 09:26:49
my wife also cut me off, sexually, at that time. I’ve had sex with her, literally, less than 15 times in the last 20 years.Ah, monogamy.
Realistcally, what age would you say is the youngest (beautiful) woman I can expect to have a long-term relationship (or even marriage) with?That's a very good, and somewhat complicated question. I'll do a blog post on that.
JJ 2015-08-10 16:57:30
Thanks so much, Blackdragon! I'll be waiting, oh yes, I'll be waiting...like a wolf peering through the slats of a chicken coop, breathing heavily...
Skip 2015-09-12 11:35:48
I just happened to stumble onto this, and after reading the post and comments. Most of it seems on how to get with someone who can practically be your daughter. I can only guess two reasons why she wants you, money and daddy issues. How about looking up what a girl thinks about older men? Exotic, exciting?
Blackdragon 2015-09-12 11:56:34
I can only guess two reasons why she wants you, money and daddy issues."I can only guess two reasons why a man would be attracted to blonde women. Either he's shallow or he's stupid." If your view of this is so simplistic, then you really don't understand human behavior. If you have a negative view of this, please go to this post here and and answer its question.
Erin David 2015-09-17 22:32:39
I found your article, articulate, informative& right on. I got divorced 6 years ago, and have been on a few dates with woman my age, and found most of them to be bitter and angry at the whole dating world. At the same time, during the corse of these last 6 years I abstained from sex, because I hate condoms & being depressed I lost interest. Then an amazing thing happened, I met this beautiful 28 year old model, i only say that to express how beautiful she actually is. She hit on me, I am a good looking man but put myself in that catagory that I would never attract a younger woman again. She happened to be in town for some work, but actually lives 6 hrs away from me. We met at a coffee house. Our first conversation lasted 4 hrs. She was well read, intelligent, juswt fasinating. We exchanged numbers. Next thing I know, she started texting me (obv. a catg 2 woman). After a couple of weeks of phone and texting, she invited me to come spend the weekend at her beach house up north. I just assumed she enjoyed my older wisdom, as what could she see in me? I paid her a 4 day visit, we had a wonderfull time, and towards the end of my trip, she kissed me, and said she has never quite met anyone like me. it felt as though we were meant for one another, but there was this 18 year age gap. I left , but we kept in touch every day, her youth brought new life into me. She made it clear she never related to guys her own age, and found my experience and knowledge facinating. I soon paid her another visit. I sooon found the age gap to be no gap at all, we related on so many things, she is a brilliant person, beautiful in so many ways, deep, passionate. We shared the same religious beliefs, and were both more spiritual then religious. to make a long story short we are dating, and I can't believe the life blood she has brought back into my life. I'm off the full belief, that a younger woman, who one finds compatability with can add a spark of energy, that all the woman that were close to my age (bitter, angry, used up)just could not add anything to my life. And it is quite true, I acted my age, I have salt and pepper hair, and she loves it. I even asked her if she wanted me to look younger, and her response has always been 'I love u just the way u r". one thing I can not break away from though is how much I adore her, she turns me on in so many ways. I thought my sex life was over. I do not tthink the cure to ED is drug treatment. Its finding a younger woman who stimulates you both emotionally and phisically.
DCPete 2015-09-22 23:15:29
You just got to be comfortable and confident. I turn 30 in 3 days and fuck plenty of young women, even get them to foot the bill and never have to commit to manogomy/relationship. When not at work I dress like a 17yo skater. I also am a former college soccer player, a PhD candidate and have been told I'm easy on the eyes. Men are aroused by appearance yet for women it's a psychological thing. They are quite self centered and view themselves much more as individuals than part of something bigger. It's why they like social media so much because it tells them they are important when really they are just 1 of billions. A woman is always going to be attracted to what elevates her in her social world, regardless of size of her social life. Initial attraction for them is all about self promotion in their social ladder. The key to driving women crazy regardless of age is stealing their thunder, sex. The fail proof plan is getting them hot for you (again more mental gymnastics than physical) then refusing sex when they obviously want it. It puts them in their place, makes you look like a king and sets a precident that they cannot control you with seduction. You successfully out mind-fuck a woman and she will screw like a porn star and eat out of the palm of your hand.
Susan 2015-10-08 13:04:33
The closest I come to is a type 1. I get hit on constantly by old-er men (30+). I will tell you why, which is not stated in the type 1 description. It's the differences in life placement. At 18 I went on a date with a 26 year old. He began talking about his ex-girlfriend's kids. Kids??? No, at 18 I was still thinking about the life between now and kids. Lack of maturity has nothing to do with it, but rather youthful wisdom. Older men have been there, done that. I want a partner for life experiences, not another daddy, mentor, etc. i also do not want to wheel my husband into the gym for my children's high school graduation...or rob them of a father at their wedding because he might be dead from old age. I think older men who father children with vyw are considerably thoughtless and selfish lacking the ability to really think about the future. I want a man to be interested in the total package, not just my shell. With older men, it's more likely my shell so they aren't worth my time, aren't worth the gamble. What it comes down to is that I am very confident, attractive (not just by youth), and intelligent at my vya (very young age)...and I have no desire to date an older man because that tells me something must be very wrong with his values, perceptions, and character. Sorry guys. Just the fact that you are trying to figure out how to have sex with us, noting how easy it is to take advantage of type 2s (girls who are looking for a daddy) is completely creepy. Sorry, guys.
Blackdragon 2015-10-09 12:10:32
Just the fact that you are trying to figure out how to have sex with us, noting how easy it is to take advantage of type 2s (girls who are looking for a daddy) is completely creepy.Then go here and answer the question the article there poses.
Susan 2015-10-12 12:14:49
"If a younger woman dates an older man in a serious or casual relationship, entirely of her own free will, and the man is not lying to her, not leading her on, looks perfectly normal, and is not a creeper, why is this bad?" An older man, in my mind, has a duty to actually get that he has traveled enough road that it would not be honorable to take advantage of a "vyw". An older man should see his actions towards a "vyw" as though he is her father. Would he want this for her? Would he hope that that man writes articles to help older men land a "vyw"? I think that some men will got into some sad, pathetic denial and decide in some twisted way that they would be okay with it. Heck, even pedophiles have their own groups helping each other justify their love of children and how their actions or desires are okay. I turned 18 during my senior year of high school as did a lot of my friends. Really? You want to date a high school senior? What is wrong with you? Unfortunately, I know girls who want to think of themselves so badly as mature that they would, therefore, think themselves to be justified to date an older (old) man. The thing is, these girls are the ones who I think lack the most in maturity. I've seen it, I know them. How do you define maturity? Explain to me how an 18 to, what was the age before we are old according to you...23? has reached the level of maturity of a 40 year old. It isn't possible...although it IS possible for a 40 year old to be grossly lacking in maturity. So you can try to justify it by saying things like "her own free will" and "looks perfectly normal", but does THAT make it right? At some point the law has to cut itself off and place hope in the hands of people. I imagine it hopes a 40 year old will realize, will know that a "vyw" as you describe one to be is legally approachable, but does that make it right for older men to do so? I personally know several examples of women in my life who have done the older man thing and not one has yet to have panned out well for her...but I guess if you are an older man who just wants to have sex with a "vyw", they have something to go brag about to their older guy friends and somehow this might feed a sick ego. Thinking of that, why don't you all go try to find vym to be close buddies with? Write an article about how to land a 20 year old guy friend. Or would that be really creepy?
Blackdragon 2015-10-12 13:51:46
You didn't answer the question. All you said was "because they're not equally mature," which is meaningless, particularly in an honest, non-serious FB-type relationship. Perhaps you should re-read the question and try again.
You want to date a high school senior?Nope. But I would be happy to have sex with an 18 year-old woman provided she had big boobs and big hips and was low-drama. As do 95% of all other older men if they were being honest. It's biological. If you have a problem with it, then that's fine, but that's the way human beings are designed. (Though again, I don't have sex with women under the age of 23 these days; but you probably think that's horrible too.) But do I want an 18 year-old as girlfriend or something? Of course not.
So you can try to justify it by saying things like “her own free will” and “looks perfectly normal”, but does THAT make it right?If it's consensual on both sides and he's not lying to her or leading her on, yes.
Susan 2015-10-12 14:30:46
I did answer, just maybe not to your liking. It is grotesquely selfish of the man. Concerning biology? Even evolutionary psychologists, according to one of my textbooks, say that doesn't mean they believe biology is justification for choices and actions. If human men want to live in their reptile brains, I suppose you can. And right there, that means you (meaning men in general who are trying to figure out how to land a "vyw" are creepy, just like some of their animal friends.
Blackdragon 2015-10-12 19:04:43
No, you didn't answer. You have not given one solid, external, real-life, fact-based answer to that question. Instead you keep repeating that it's wrong because you personally find it objectionable (which is what your ranting about about maturity and men's selfishness is). Things are not wrong just because you or your friends personally find them gross. Moreover, the only reason you think it's wrong is because you were raised in a country that kept telling you for years it's wrong until you started believing it. (Asia, Europe, and South America are much more chill about this particular issue.) Congratulations, you're societally programmed. I prefer to live in the objective world. If you want to live in a false world, that's fine, but I'm glad I'm not you.
Susan 2015-10-13 00:13:12
You asked why it is bad. I gave you my opinion. You are unable to present any fact based answers. I have my opinion based on what I've seen other girls and women go through...and children...the neighbor who married a woman 15 years younger. Although in shape, age caught up and he can't even play outside with his young children. Another neighbor in her 50s is now a nurse for her aged husband who can't even have a conversation due to his obviously aged brain...but he dresses okay and takes a humped over, slow walk every day. They have a couple of older teenage sons he can't do anything with at all. How about a friend's sister, married at 22 to a 37 year old. She thought she didn't want children (which at 22 who could blame her) and since he was almost done raising his son, he didn't want any. Biology bit her in the hiney and she decided later she wanted children. Long story short, she ended up childless and divorced but at least he got to show off his trophy for a bit and have sex with it. And then there is a friend who decided at 20 to marry a man in his early 40s. She can't comfortably hang out with his friends because they are all older and it is too strange when he makes attempts to hang out with us...we definitely get creeped out by him. Thankfully, she's planning on divorcing him since it hasn't turned out the way she thought it would. He's nice enough, in shape...but he has very little in common with us. My friend's dad is a doctor. He divorced his wife who happened to be one of my teachers in high school. I ran into him at a club while I was working and even though I still refer to him as Dr. (name), he asked to take me on a cruise. Really?? You've got to be kidding. His poor kids...my friend would die if he knew his dad hit on me like that...what a total creep. Oh, and then there is another friend who met a married man going through a family crisis. Her dad left her mom for a younger woman...so she decided to invade the family crisis and become the younger woman for him. I can't even look at her. Major daddy issues. So outside of celebrities who I pay no attention to, I don't know a single female who benefitted from having a relationship with an older man. The older men all got what they wanted and now? So yes, I believe that older men who date and/or marry "vyw" are selfish and should know better. I didn't get this from a society that tells me whatever you wrote. You think that because you are an older generation that was probably taught that. My generation is much more open. So from what I've seen and experienced, we very young women are better off without you unless you are our dad, uncle, grampa, etc. I would think you older men would get that, but you don't really care about us in general. You just want to have sex with us. And if nothing is wrong with any of this, you guys show this blog and all your comments to your next conquest...but you won't because you know she'll be creeped out by it...because it's creepy!
Blackdragon 2015-10-13 15:13:24
a bunch of examples of people MARRYING much younger people.Now you're ignoring what I'm saying. For the second time, I'm not recommending people marry people 15 years younger and never have. I'm talking about honest, CASUAL sexual relationships. We're done here. Thank you for proving my point (that you have none, other than your own feelings).
Susan 2015-10-13 19:53:59
You are taking about casual sex, but all these marriages came partly as a result of casual sex. Love isn't concerned about your desire for casual sex...and you have included dating which is beyond casual sex. So in order to avoid putting "vyw" through these sorts of things, you older men shouldn't be so selfish and self-centered. And if you are decent at all, then be up front with your conquests. "Honey, I just want to have sex with you. That's all I'm interested in because I like my conquests to be legal, but extra young." At least then she can make a choice based on truth rather than older man manipulation. So pathetic.
Ron Gordon 2015-10-21 01:32:09
BD and Susan you both make reasonable comments across the spectrum. I would note that my understanding is that for hundreds of years women were treated as unable to make decisions for themselves, unable to vote, or own property, etc. Now that women are treated as capable of making decisions for themselves it is ironic that Susan would basically argue that we should return to those days and protect women from the intellectually superior men who would and can take advantage of them. Susan, you say your friend's father hit on you. He treated you as an adult, capable of declining his offer, and you reacted above as an indignant child.
John 2015-10-26 18:31:41
Every web site where we men are trying to achieve something in trying to adapt to modern women, there is always some women who enter into what is a discussion, and try and take over with such strong gender bias opinions. It is like they always have to be right by having the final definitive word. I was going to offer some information on this topic being that I married a lady 18 years younger however, women like SUSAN above has already exhausted me and frankly, this is all too common online and out in the real world. No wonder MGTOW is looking better and better each and everyday for a growing number of battle fatigued scarred men.
Eric 2015-11-04 13:32:32
You sir are 98% correct! I am married but sometimes go into bars myself because of wife's work schedule and get hit on by #2's. Average looking, slightly overweight, well groomed and act my age of 49. I don't sugar coat or lie with them.(Big Turnoff For Them)I actually talk to them with respect unlike their boyfriends. Tell them they are super hot but only ONCE! I will say it again ONCE! The 49 year old wisdom and honesty gets you invited to parties and into their bed all the time. Note: I never have participated in their offers(happily married) but it sure is fun to be around them and have them hug and love on you . It gets your creepy buddies super jealous! Good article and validated!
Raymond 2015-11-09 05:16:52
After back to back mishaps with woman my age and I'm now 57 the last 3 girlfriends I've had are 22/23 and 18. I attribute this as simply the result of these young millennial guys that she has to pay for half of her expenses even if they live together with these young bozos....The type 2s have clearly told me that they don't date guys her age cause they don't even have a car. Trust me I don't target younger girls 18 to 26...I do prefer a woman my age but it never works out cause they are the classic drama queens. Where as these college girls can go out in a moments notice to South Beach for the weekend and I do love getting them clothes and gifts something the young guys can't or don't cause they are stingy.....so this works as a Symbiosis. Ever wondered why the 3000lbs heifer allows a 3lbs skinny bird on it's back? Same thing with these types of relationships.....btw the favorite word of type 1s is creepy. Ever read the bible and seen how the majority of those marriages were from much older men to younger women? Blame it on the bible all you type 1s....and continue with your broke young boyfriend that makes you pay for things....your problem.
AmandaS 2016-01-23 09:05:02
I guess the "acting younger" may not be attractive to some women, but it sure helps to feel young! You gotta know how to use a touch screen phone or know what an iPad is, right?
william Elliott 2016-02-06 11:21:25
william Elliott 2016-02-06 11:31:47
This is so sad and pathetic. Old guy's looking to date young women? Give me a break. Are you really that weak? The most you will get from that is an std. I can't believe someone would waste the time on such a stupid, meaningless topic. Any young women that would date or go out with a guy ten years older is only doing so to take whatever it is that you have. Don't be the chump that she hopes you are. Stay with your own age unless you like getting scammed. Guy's get blinded by pussy and make stupid decisions. Believe me, if you are with a woman ten years younger than you she is just waiting for the right time to strike.
Blackdragon 2016-02-06 12:47:38
You realize you didn't make a single point, right "William?" Read this article here and respond over there if you still feel the same way after reading it.
Sarah Jane 2016-02-14 14:13:59
I'm now in a relationship with a sixty year old man. When I met him, he was fifty-eight. I'm thirty-three. He was living in the same residential home as me. I wasn't purposely looking to have a relationship with anyone in there. It's one of the most unlikeliest of places, you'd think of, for getting into a relationship with them, as they're housemates. He now has bowel cancer, don't I'm just hoping I have many more years left with him. We were mutually attracted to each other. It took me a while though. As it wasn't instant. He was attracted to me straight away. At first, I kept not talking to him that much, because I kept thinking it wouldn't be okay to date a much older man. I know different, now. I just don't tell relatives, because they'd be horrified. Sad to say. My relatives are very draconian 🙁 He's my silver fox.
charlie835139 2016-03-02 05:12:56
LOL about the overweight, nonsexual wives. Before I met my current girlfriend (in her mid-20s), I was about to give up trying to date younger women because most of them tend to be shallow OR very smug/smartass. I lucked out with my partner because she doesn't fall into either of these categories. It's stil a learning process for both of us and this article certainly helped put things into perspective for me.
tim 2016-03-05 06:14:06
hey man thanks for the great advice. I am currently at University, one of the top 3 in the country (UK) Me and my house mate hosted a party last night and I has a choice of 3 girls, ages 23 down to 18. Guess which one I ended up in bed with?! Yeh right. I'm 53, still in good shape. Like you say I just act normal, no games and boom she took ME to bed. Anyway she left to go home last night, and I was wondering if I should Facebook her, but I'm kind of in two minds. Any advice would be gratefully received. Best wishes Tim
Blackdragon 2016-03-05 21:12:59
I try not to answer these "There's this one girl..." questions, but just text her.
Frank 2016-03-10 08:51:54
So I'm in a friend relationship for almost 2 years with this 35 year old women who has a 12 year old son. I just turned 60 and am breaking up with my 52 year old live in girlfriend after being with her for 10 years. It is over mostly my girl friend of 2 years who I hang out with a lot. I do love this younger woman but I'm a year older than her dad. She will drop everything to do stuff with me but I'm not sure I'll ever have a chance for a sexual relationship to happen! She doesn't have a man either, I just can't figure out if it's in the cards for me with her!! Any comments would be appreciated.
Blackdragon 2016-03-10 10:15:44
To repeat what I just said: I try not to answer these “There’s this one girl…” questions You guys really need to read this post and follow it's instructions and stop farting around with friend zone.
tim 2016-03-10 10:20:50
Yes, don't ask Blackdragon, apparently he doesn't like to answer; "And there's this one girl" type questions. Remember what Ford said, "Whether you can or you can't you are right" Forget about her Dad, just take her out be cool and if she's up for it she'll let you know. Check out Social attraction for some great advice. Hola!
D. Tee 2016-03-22 14:56:20
Very good advice, especially about being creepy and acting your age. I currently have a mistress that is a little over thirty years younger than I am. We enjoy each other thoroughly, as friends, companions, and sex partners. I always just try to act like me, be a gentleman and that way there is no change when we get together. She is much more an active sex partner but does not expect me to always keep up. If I "tire out", she knows she can continue and we still both enjoy the act.
D. Tee 2016-03-22 14:57:42
Very good advice, especially about being creepy and acting your age. I currently have a mistress that is a little over thirty years younger than I am. We enjoy each other thoroughly, as friends, companions, and sex partners. I always just try to act like me, be a gentleman and that way there is no change when we get together. She is much more an active sex partner but does not expect me to always keep up. If I "tire out", she knows she can continue and we still both enjoy the act.
Tee 2016-04-22 20:51:00
You guys are living in a fantasy. I understand its hard getting older but just accept it for what it is. Most people date and marry people their same age. Men and women are equally as attracted to youth. No one is checking for a old(er) man. But if telling each other fairy tales makes you feel hopeful, by all means go for it. Have a great weekend everyone.
Tee(Talia) 2016-04-22 21:09:18
Also wanted to add you men here are like tortured spirits in here. Analyzing and longing for something that is out of your reach and will continue to be further out of your reach because everyday you are just getting older. Just sounds like a miserable existence. It is kind of sad.
Blackdragon 2016-04-22 21:55:02
You guys are living in a fantasy...No one is checking for a old(er) man.Then how do you explain the fact I've dated and had sex with scores of women 20+ years younger than me without lying to them or giving them money? If you deny the facts, it's you who are living in a fantasy.
Also wanted to add you men here are like tortured spirits in hereOne of the rules of this blog is that if you want to complain, you need to provide actual points against what was written in the article. If all you have are insults, I'm going to have to ask you to leave. Thanks.
J71 2016-04-23 07:00:05
No one is checking for a old(er) man.No one is deliberately checking for an older man, this may be indeed be true. BUT even at 44 i am still get checked out a lot by girls in their late 20s. Now the average fat middle class beta male is not likely to draw much attention, but the middle aged guy that stands out is.
firsthelix 2016-04-25 21:56:32
Yeah, those women who envy us guys for being able to pull VYW are actually "tortured spirits", lol. As much as I love women, I never wouldn't want to change for being one. They have considerably less options the older they get and it's kinda unfair, actually. I know only a handful of cougars, and they are exceptionally good looking at 40 or 44. But even they are not able to pull VYM at all or guys 20+ their junior without lying about their age. They know about their faster fading market value - compared to men - and so most of them have to lie, because unlike VYW most YM actually don't look for anything else than physical quality or money if they consider to date a cougar. When I was 25 I fucked a 50yo woman for the experience. I wouldn't have done so though hadn't she been in sick shape and showing it off, flexing at the beach in front of me... One thing I would stress though, if guys in their 40's and beyond want to increase their chances with 7-9 caliber VYW, they better be in ridiculous physical shape themselves and mentally keep up with what's trending!
Blane 2016-05-26 00:44:02
Thanks. That was a good read.
CaptainCrazy 2016-05-30 16:55:53
Wanna know why old farts go after 18-20 year old meat instead of someone their own age? Because woman their age look for man who is mature, stable and has job and is not some sort of man-child that is still holding onto his youth. Younger women don't have much experience yet and they are still exploring what world offers to them and still are learning. Pretty much easy pray Vs women that has experience and won't be impressed with car you mabye are having. In short older men want younger women because women their own age consider them losers and don't want to have them =P
Anon. 2016-05-31 11:08:11
So true! Whenever I have to choose whether to approach a hot girl in her 20s or a mature lady in her 50s, I realize my youthful attitude just won’t cut it with the latter, so I begrudgingly start seducing the former!
Tina 2016-06-15 17:58:31
Hi I only have one thing to say I'm a woman who has been also dating different group age men. The only difference is when men get as old as their 60,s they really become so boring, lousy sex partners and depressed, where women in their 60,s are much more fun, more active and more pleasant to be aroundone in general. So I am 62 now and picked my 40 years old boyfriend to stay and continue with rather than my 60 years old boyfriend.
Paul 2016-07-20 19:15:10
Great article and thank you. I just started dating a woman that is much younger than me and been having the same thoughts you discuss above. I was almost thinking to cut it off because I cant compete with the much younger crowd. Shall continue on in a non creepy way and see where it takes me.
William 2016-07-26 14:33:17
People say it's rare for older women to like younger men. Is it really? One just pointed out in these comments that the older guy has to compete with the younger guy for a hot woman over 35. That does not seem fair imo at all.
Duke971 2016-07-30 05:13:28
Oh yes what you say is true! As a man in his 40s I have noticed a dramatic increase in the amount of younger women who are not only open to but actually seeking relations with older men. The greatest thing is that many only want temporary companionship (if you know what I mean!) Just last weekend I picked up (or should say they picked me up) two much younger women. I asked them if they wanted to shoot a game of pool, kept it cool, general small talk, bought a couple rounds, and before I know it they are asking me where I live and if I wanted to go party there! Any how was an unbelievable night! they were not shy and had no trouble sharing! turns out they both have boy friends their age, but just wanted to see what being with an older man was like!! needless to say we keep in contact and both have become semi regular house guests, when they want to escape their "immature", gamer boy friends who take them for granted! Life is good.
handsomerandyblackladbrad1953 2016-08-16 07:17:19
I'm a 63-year-old black Canadian man with poster boy good looks,a muscular,though somewhat beefy build,and a belief that an older man should be a chivalrous stud towards the ladies,looking BUT NEVER LEERING at bosomy gals.(I'll expand in my next post.)
Tango 2016-08-28 10:07:36
Hi I am a 48 year old man who has returned to college for a second career. Meaning, I'm surrounded by young beauties between 18 and 21 all the time. I'm not good at game, however I am a good conversationalist and have a happy attitude most of time. Until now, I have kept to myself in class, most of all because I am afraid of getting the "creepy old man" label and have it following me for the next 4 years. Besides, a classroom is not a good environment to chat up women. Women here are still living with their parents or living in the dorms/shared flats. Also, most of them are very smart. Also, this is Spain, so 95% of college women are HOT. Few fatties here. So yes, I'm also intimidated. So many hot women, and no game. Any advice would be useful, thank you.
Blackdragon 2016-08-28 14:14:09
Any advice would be useful, thank you.Buy my book on the subject.
Tim 2016-08-29 01:34:22
Hey man I'm at University in the UK and I'm 54.... same thing really! I find the best approach is to be the wise old man and just see what happens.. you really must let these girls go after you, which will happen eventually, just takes a bit more time (long game) otherwise as you say you'll get labelled as a creep. This happened to a friend of mine who's here and only 35, so beware. Get friendly with both sexes and then host a party, your house will be cooler than the usual college dorms and accomodation so use that to your advantage. I've been to bed with three girls so far one 19, 23 and 25, they all said they like older men, I was like I'm old enough to be your dad! (I thought this, didn't say it!) O and don't forget your Viagra, they don't know when enough is enough and be ready at all times, if you get a signal you won't get a second chance, this has happened on a least two occasions to me too. So to recap, stimulate their minds first, be there for them almost as a father figure, but naughty Dad. And be patient. Hope this helps.
Ash 2016-08-30 18:05:44
"People say it’s rare for older women to like younger men. Is it really? One just pointed out in these comments that the older guy has to compete with the younger guy for a hot woman over 35. That does not seem fair imo at all." I don't think it's rare at all. I'd bet most people would be surprised how many older women are more attracted to younger guys, and also younger guys who are into older women.
tom 2016-09-13 18:44:27
It's not rare at all. I've been hit on/propositioned by older women VERY often throughout my life, and let me tell you, there are plenty of older ladies out there who are plenty creepy themselves : p On topic, however, I am curiouse, BD, although you recommend that an older many should be fit, is it a mistake to go too far with this? You write that "while type 1's are turned on by guys with muscles and their shirts off, type 2's are turned on by guys wearing suits". So, is it possible that it is a mistake to be in TOO good of shape? ie. six pack, chiseled biceps etc. ? I'm just wondering because I've actually had a couple girls complain that I don't have a beer belly. I know it's only two girls but anyway it got me wondering, maybe being ripped is actually a turn off for the type 2's.
Blackdragon 2016-09-13 19:06:19
I am curiouse, BD, although you recommend that an older many should be fit, is it a mistake to go too far with this?No.
You write that “while type 1’s are turned on by guys with muscles and their shirts off, type 2’s are turned on by guys wearing suits”.I never wrote that nor anything like that. Type 1s are attracted to men their own age. Type 2s are attracted to older men.
I’m just wondering because I’ve actually had a couple girls complain that I don’t have a beer belly.https://blackdragonblog.com/2015/05/04/ignore-what-women-say-only-watch-what-they-do/
K 2016-09-14 06:23:21
I’m just wondering because I’ve actually had a couple girls complain that I don’t have a beer belly.Woman here. Tastes differ. It may be true that the majority of women prefer ripped men. I can´t speak for those. I only have my experience in which perfectly chiseled bodies don´t make me horny. Not saying my dream man weighs 200kg but some "imperfections" are erotic + I need flesh/fat to grab and squeeze (!!!) + the weight of the dominant man lying on me... you get it.
despised 2016-09-16 16:16:57
I dated a man much older than me, like 30 yrs older. He was divorced because of his countless affairs while in the marriage. His kids did not speak to him at all. He is very intelligent and I really loved him because of some personal experience. I am a beautiful and independent girl. I never asked anything from him and he never pays for anything for me. I had to take a lot of pressure and prejudice to be with him. I thought he would treasure the relationship with me. However, I found out he continued to have multiple affairs while with me and recently had hit on a girl who is even 5 yr younger than me. I left him immediately and felt really pathetic for him. He is in bad health condition and I don't think the new girl will fall for him. Even so, she definitely won't stay around for long to take care of him as he gets sicker. Some men think they had the fun as they want but they don't know what they really lose. He thinks he can get any women he wants. Getting me really boost his confidence, I guess. Honestly, 99% of women won't be attracted men that are 30 yr plus older, except for gold diggers. I have some psychological issues and was a rare case. How stupid a man can be to really believe one case can stand for all?
tom 2016-09-20 18:28:39
.... "Most VYW are excited when they see buff guys with their shirts off, but type twos are excited when they see guys in suits" "How to Attract and Date Young Women, by Blackdragon"
Blackdragon 2016-09-23 11:02:47
Jane - Please click this and read the rules for commenting on this blog, which you have clearly been ignoring. Personal attacks and insults are not allowed here. I've deleted your comments above, and if you'd like to have a rational, adult conversation, feel free to comment further. But if you just want to toss personal insults around, you're not welcome here. Thanks in advance.
Notcreepyguy 2016-10-30 19:59:02
Nice work. There were a lot of comments and I didn't read them all, so I apologize if you already covered my question: How do your relationships usually end? Is there a common cause? I’m only asking because I am interested in dating younger women for sex but not for a relationship. This may sound shallow but I’m being honest. Thanks
Blackdragon 2016-10-31 10:26:27
I apologize if you already covered my questionI have, in detail. Poke around the archive of this blog for more info. The summary is that most of my relationships don't "end," they just take breaks, called LSNFTEs. They leave for a while and 94% eventually come back. The common cause is women wanting temporary monogamy from a man, which I won't give them.
Miguel Rashad Evans 2016-11-03 12:32:48
hmmm..At risk of being called shallow and narrow visioned.I have had multiple younger women. I am 45 but look late twenties early thirties.Smooth skin no blemishes round baby face..I have a muscular build I'm six foot two 240..I'll admit I have lied to bang 20 somethings.giggling behind my hand "1VYW"s who have told me they are turned off by men around my age.It always make a bigger challenge because don't like being told who I can't date as long as it's legal of course.I always co sign and just hang around for the sex and don't try to develop anything serious.I have dated seriously late twenty some-odds who Ive truly loved.It didn't work out because of immaturity of relationship but economics. I run into women my age with multiple kids,c section scars and depleted bodies who hate men.I laugh when they think I'm a kid I don't tell them I'm a peer or even pretend I'm their age or even a little older. sometimes this is because they don't turn me on and havbe let themselves go expect maybe...Luvy Leu,Vida Guerrera,stacey dash, Haley Berry,Semal Hiek,Christina Hendricks,Michelle Mendez types.I'd wife that..
Nick 2016-11-27 11:39:58
Well reasoned and supportable. Taking care of ones appearance is a critical aspect. The self-discipline builds confidence and stability. This best be thought of as a process not an endpoint. For example, just bringing weight/health under control builds self confidence, resilience to rejection, and reduces the stress of moving forward. Health also increases the probabilities of initiating successful MLTR/FB relationships. More generally, success/failure in relationships with attractive young(er) women is also probabilistic. Once one has a workable set of principles, such as offered here. We learn over time through our direct behavior what to do and how to do it. Then, it becomes natural. Inevitably, the probabilities of success increases dramatically. The comments about middle-aged and older women made me smile. Many have let themselves become de-sexualized by an unattended appearance, a bitter and jealous personality, and aversive manner. I have found that these women usually become seriously angry, exceedingly judgmental, critical, shaming, and vindictive. Their response has been so visceral and threatening. I have experience with this. It's very ugly behavior. It is the quickest way to become demonized that I can think of. If it gets back to the work environment, ones reputation will be tarnished or worse vilified -- both yours and hers. We in the US live in a culturally skewed PC world. I would offer some advice. First, don't discuss with others ones private life. Second, protect you sweetheart from this poison also. Third, be culturally sensitive to whomever you introduce her too. What works is to kindly tell a new girlfriend that "...our relationship is private -- and just between us - now and always." From a Clinical Psychologist
penguinMelon 2016-12-04 03:20:26
"Ew , that's like f***ing my dad, Gross !". I don't know what country you are in where women talk like that, but it's not attractive and I pity you. Perhaps your 3 "Types" of women are an incorrect conclusion. I put it to you that a Womans attraction to you has less about your Age and more about her preference for particular characteristics: Physical and emotional characteristics. Obviously you have met a range of women, and analyzed the experiences. The ones that weren't interested , or said "You're too old", you assumed were making a judgement based on your age. Re-visit some of your Type-I's and see how many times they have dated a guy much older who matched their character preference. Or consider if you approach them under different circumstances, at a slightly different time in their lives, and you were Taller, Shorter, more Nerdy, more confident, or reminded them of a childhood friend. Despite the incorrect analysis, Your advice holds true at all ages, and that is "Act your age", "Dress well". Perhaps this works because it is Sincere and Confident rather than because the girl has some fetish for older men and is a "Type-II or Type-III. Perhaps your advice holds true regardless of the flawed subjective justifications and incorrect classification into three character types. The most important thing I have learned is that the character of a woman can vary, her preference can change and cycle.
Scott 2016-12-05 20:09:21
I seriously don't understand this discussion/debate. Younger women do NOT LIKE Older guys...(unless they're a bloody movie/rock Star). Its just that Simple. Other then that, we just don't see old Geezerds with younger girls.. Also "weird" is that there was 72 pages of REsponses about this "subject" WTF ????
Blackdragon 2016-12-05 20:15:54
Younger women do NOT LIKE Older guysThen how do you explain all the younger women I've had sex with, with $0-$25 spent grand total?
Other then that, we just don’t see old Geezerds with younger girlsIf you mean crusty, disgusting 80 year-olds, then I agree with you, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about decently healthy-looking men in their 30s-50s.
Amanda 2016-12-28 13:50:41
I absolutely love this article. I am a 40 year old type #2 woman. I became sexually active in high school with two boyfriends who were both age appropriate and long term from a teenagers perspective. However once I began college I found myself no longer interested in dating or sleeping with guys my age as they all looked and acted like boys to me. I've always been considered by others (so I've been told anyway) to be very attractive, interesting and outgoing. I still experienced the whole college party scene during that time but while my peers were getting loaded at the club/bar slowly narrowing down their post evening options I was thinking about what I was going to wear to Monday's sociology class for a professor I wanted/did have a sexual relationship with. This taste continued throughout the remainder of my adult life and at times have thought or been asked what was wrong with me. Ive had many people assume I must have been taken advantage of as a child by an older man while others label my taste a "fetish". I have never been taken advantage of and if my taste is a "fetish" so be it because that's just what it is, a taste. A choice. To me older men have always appeared to be more emotionally stable, better conversationalist and skilled lovers. I am NOT interested in men who try to act younger, fetishize my age or are in pursuit of status trophy. I have successfully dated men between 9 and 15 years my senior and was married to a man 14 years older than myself. I came across this article while looking for advice on a current situation I've recently found myself in and had to comment because from the perspective of a "type 2" woman, The author is right on the money. I am considering sleeping with a 60 year old gentleman 21 years my senior. This will be the greatest age gap for me as of yet and I'm nervous about it for some reason. If it were 10 or even 15 years ago I wouldn't give it a second thought, but I'm aware as men age there are sometimes sexual changes within them as well. At 39 I'm still if not more interested and adventurous when it comes to sex. I'm genuinely concerned about coming off as too "young and aggressive" in bed and not meeting his needs properly or scaring him off. I know communication is key and we've begun that process but for the first time in my life I find myself cautious and tongue-tied, concerned that what I might say may come across as crass and or the opposite of sexy. I am NOT looking to make a life partner out this person or anyone at the moment, I just want us both to have a mutually satisfying experience and being aware of your partners needs and desires on both ends is THE recipe for good sex.
franz chong 2016-12-30 15:24:57
this time last year I pulled off albeit as a holiday romance and was 38 at the time an 18 and a half year old and it was fun while it lasted lovely decent girl but it wouldn't have worked out because of her having siblings all younger than herself and then there was the whole distance thing:I AM FROM AUSTRALIA AND SHE'S FROM SOUTH AFRICA AND WHITE,yes I miss the young lady(her name was Kirsten)but have moved on and nowadays at my workplace I have a much better professional work friendship with a girl called Hollie she's 25 who makes me laugh and makes my day.I turned 39 last week and was almost tempted by another holiday romance with a 16 year old girl called Elise but it just didn't feel right,my guilt over the other two would eat me alive even if she was kind of cute.Why would a guy like me be doing with a bunch of under thirty somethings remains a mystery but it keeps me young and happy.
Mack Ratthe 2017-02-04 14:00:31
Great article - I found it comforting but I'm still perplexed about a few things. Maybe someone here can help give me some insight. I'm 42 years old. I spent my teenage years through age 35 battling a chronic condition I was not expected to overcome - or survive. (I'd prefer not to get into details here - they're irrelvant). I've only been in two short relationships. I couldnt afford the luxury when I was dying 🙂 So I was thirty five when I first slept with a woman. She was five years older and pursued me in a freaky obsessive kind of way that foreshadowed the disastrous relationship that went on and off for the next several years. Today I would run but damn.... she was a great teacher 🙂 The next girl was about my age and approached me as well. It's not too hard to see where I'm going with this. I learn fast and I'm about 75% happy with how I handled my second. I don't have trouble on the phone or once Im in a relationship. But I don't approach women. However.... I'm 42 and I'm not going to live forever. The internet dating ship has sailed so far as I'm concerned and Im not into bars much anymore. I need to learn to approach women in person wherever and whenever I see one that interests me and I need to get this resolved asap. I have a lot going for me, am a good looking guy, have all my hair, got the beard going :). I'd nearly earned a black belt when I stupidly allowed my life to fall apart over my last ex. Never again. I'm back in the gym and I'll be getting my mojo back there soon. I'm not a "pussy" by any means - but I feel like one because the thought of just approaching a woman on the street cold scares the shit out of me. Its like some kind of mental block. I already know what I need to do: just do it. and do it again. and again.... but I just keep on not doing it like watching myself in a nightmare. Its been nearly six years since my ex left and I havn't had any since. I'm going insane. Thoughts?
Blackdragon 2017-02-04 21:59:16
Mack - Get some counseling and/or some personal coaching.
Ron Gordon 2017-02-05 20:31:47
Hi Mack, thanks for your comments. I recently got back into the game after a divorce and I am 46. Over the past 2 years I have been with about 20 women. Mostly from net game. I totally agree with you about picking up women on the street that appeal to you and I have had about 3 successes with that although I have tried on perhaps 20 approaches. I suggest you look to daygame.com, maybe Roosh's books and what BD writes about the 20 dating rules. Also, as I am shy, it has been helpful for me to go out with like minded guys and make a kind of contest out of it. I have to talk to a woman and then they do. Some may call this stupid, whatever, it works for me. I can slink back to my friends for a pat on the back and try again. Going totally solo is tough but I will keep trying. Best of luck to you.
DinoG 2017-02-15 18:16:24
Hey guys this is a totally unrelated topic but I still wanted to get feedback on my case. Just to be clear I am NOT trying to get anyone back or moping around like a sick puppy. I just want to learn from the experience so that I can do better next time. As Brent Smith says, don't try to fix it. Just move on. Which is what I have done. On with the tale. I met some chick from a dating app and we hit it off from the first date. Spent 3 hrs together talking and had some kisses at the end. Could have pushed for sex but didn't want to figured she really liked me so I would definitely get it next time. Date 2, we go out and have some fun playing a few games, then back to my place to seal the deal. Rewind a month prior, I had a fwb chick that I was banging call me up to tell me she tested positive for curable stds. She calls to find out if I was positive and I had to go get tested and luckily came back negative on all counts. Yay for condoms! Stds turn me off so that fwb chick got the hint and moved on. Back to the main chick, had her sprawled on my bed with legs wide open and I couldn't get an erection. Somehow my subconscious is worried I might be exposed to an another std so my manhood was misbehaving. No way I was going to have unprotected sex so we sleep it off frustrated! Date 3, she invites me to her city and we dinner and drinks talking about each other and making out in Lyft rides. She seem cool that we didn't have sex and wants more of me. Back to her place we try to have sex again and once more I am hit with std anxiety. I was able to muster an erection after an 1hr and slip on a condom and penetrate her. Alas, it didn't last and I lost it while inside her. By now she was really frustrated and didn't offer to help in anyway. I ask her to play with it a bit and it was like I was asking her to do some difficult task. She gets tired and we go to bed. I couldn't really sleep and in the morning I tell her some bullshit that came to haunt me later. In other not to make her feel that I wasn't into her I joked that I liked her so much I wanted to fuck her without a condom so she HAS to go get TESTED. She then said so we wont fuck other people right? I foolishly agreed to this statement. Well all I got was a hand job then we had breakfast and I left. Date 4, she comes over to my place to spend the night so we can go out the next morning. After some hiccups we finally have sex, real pumping sex that lasts almost an hr. We have sex 3 more times in 24 hrs and finally all is good for me mentally. Fast forward to the last week we finally saw, date 6. As usual she came over to spend the night and we go out to a show come back and she is already taking her clothes off ready for sex. Earlier in the night she proceeds to mention that she has done an std test that day and she would know the results in a few days. I didn't feel good about that but I chose to let it be. So we have sex and afterwards we find out that the condom broke and I came inside her. She is on birth control so she isn't worried but I was a bit concerned and she notices this. I needed a few minutes to think due to the fact that the previous month my fwb chick who swore to me that she has never got an std in her life exposed me to stds if not for the fact that I wore condoms and never went down on her I would have been infected. So she assures me she is clean and I have nothing to worry about. I think well whats done is done. I was already exposed and I decided to deal with whatever results she tells me later. We have sex 2 more times without condoms and she leaves the next day. She texts me later about some results. So far so good. Nothing to worry about. The rest will come on Monday. We talk and plan another day to hang out the next week. I always never initiated any contact. I waited for her to reach out to ME first! So she calls me on Monday and tells me her doc says she has an STI that's not curable by drugs. I am calm and ask questions. we talk but the mood is low. I did some research and didn't like what I saw at all. She calls me the next day to see how I am doing and I respond by saying she should come by so we have a talk. she sounded reluctant and agreed anyway. She comes by the next day and looks all sullen. I had questions about her history with this STI. She mentioned she has had it before and I asked a lot of questions. Backtrack a few years ago, I was married and my wife cheated on me for quite some time and the scars are still there. She also left me with a curable STD which she denies till this day that she wasn't the one that gave it to me. So I do have some trust issues concerning stds and always use condoms for almost every woman I have been with except one. My last serious relationship my girl was a virgin and I was her first. She made sure I did an std test before any form of sexual intimacy. Back to the present, I am questioning this girl and she is getting defensive and crying. I tell her that I just want to know everything I could from her and do not mind my logical way of asking the questions. I finally ask the last question if she knew she had this STI before we had sex, she says she didn't so I leave it and pull her close and we hug and kiss. She says she wants to go home and I want her to stay. She stays and since she was on her period there is no sex. She hardly kisses me, stating she has a headache. I let her be and we just cuddle and sleep. Morning came, I am super horny and she is stroking my manhood. I ask for a bj and she refuses. I ask what she is afraid of? and she gets up to leave. I get dressed and walk her to her car and she drives off. She texts me later that day that she needs some space to think that we will talk soon. We were supposed to have a date that day in her city. I didn't respond. I was pissed but didn't want to say anything I would regret! I didn't hear from her for 4 days so I decided to reach out, yes mistake I know. I wasn't thinking straight. I spent the weekend thinking how would my body react to this STI and my brain was fuzzy. I call her up and she doesn't pick up. later she calls me and we talk. She is ranting on how I didn't take it well that she felt intimidated and not safe. I try to explain that I have a thing for diseases and just wanted to find out more. She wasn't happy that I knew about her health history and how I tried to get intimate with her so soon the same night. She said it was a red flag and she wanted to end it! Well I kinda went into a bit of a panic mode and started doing the selling myself shit. Long story short we agreed to meet the next day, she didn't sound convincing but I chalked it up to just some awkwardness and it would sort itself out after we meet, fuck and all. Well next day she called to cancel, stating she didn't miss me and wasn't excited to see me. Once again I proceed to sell myself, yes wrong move. She asked for more space, 2 weeks and we stopped talking. After 2 weeks of no contact, I reached out again, bad move yes I know. Once again she didn't pick up and calls me later. She proceeds to tell me more bullshit that I was controlling and like things done my way(this is because I refused to text her which she wanted) and mentioning that I didn't bring up that I was married sooner(I told her I was married in the past, the first time she wanted to end things over the phone). Once again I am on the defensive and sell myself more stating I have been divorced for 2years and I didn't think it mattered. Anyway we thrashed things and time to set a meet and she was wishy washy. This was a Tuesday night. Every single day she was busy. She said she would let me know and that was it. I call her 2 hours later and asked her to come by the next night, yes I know I was being impatient and pushy. She said she going out with her mom. Again she said she would let me know for Saturday and that was it. Thursday I feel that things are different now. The power dynamic has shifted and I didn't like it. She is making me wait for Saturday. I call her up and ask concerning Saturday. she wasn't too pleased to hear from me and said she has to meet her friend who has a new bf. She says I could come if I wanted but this wasn't an invitation felt more like a statement. I declined and stated that we needed to be alone so that we could get back on track. She agreed and proceeded to tell me she is only available on Saturday afternoon and I am wondering. 5 days in the week and you cant see me at night. I ask her why and if there is anything she isn't telling me and she flips out and says that's it she cant do this anymore. I am just too suspicious and refuses to see me. Telling me we are beating a dead horse. I remain calm and explain my question, she refuses to budge and that's it. I hung up and text her an hr later stating she again labels me as a bad guy and some other shit. I was pissed but didn't want to mean via text. She responds that there is no bad guy and that she isn't receiving my communication well and since there isn't a quick fix we had to part ways. That's it fellas. I know I did some pursing at the end due to the fact that I was kinda insecure with this STI and all. I didn't feel great and didn't know how women would accept me if I told them I had it so I guess I didn't want the current one to leave. I know I should have walked the first time she asked for space and I know I might not have handled the questioning properly due to my past experience with exes. Like I said I am NOT trying to get anyone back. I DON'T do NC. When a woman tells me NO, I WALK! A past ex of 3 months broke up with me over text and I told her bye. I was fucking another girl when she sent me that text. 3 weeks later she came back but I didn't take her back. So fellas, what do you think of my story? The whole think lasted 7 weeks , we saw 7 times and had sex from date 3, real sex from date 4 so there wasn't a lot of sex involved. One of the reasons I still wanted to keep it going was because we had unprotected sex. That was the first time I had done that in almost 2 years and it felt really good. I just want to learn so I can do it better next time.
HanFengZi 2017-02-15 18:56:09
@DinoG You need to have a grip on your own mind. When I was growing up, during the AIDS crisis, I noticed that people tended to project their sexual anxieties in general onto the risk of AIDS. A similar phenomenon is happening today with the current belief in "rape culture". Work on your own anxieties, find out what they are, and develop techniques to manage them, and I believe that everything will work out better next time.
Emma 2017-03-07 15:10:38
I'm a woman in my early 20s and I always considered myself a type 2, as in I'm turned on by the thought of sleeping with older men. But every older man on this post seems a confused about how these young girls see him... most of you sound like you are living in a fantasy world. literally every older man (35+) who has ever shown sexual interest towards me has creeped me out. I know he is a creep because he is deliberately seeking out a girl (me) who he knows is extremely young. There is something "icky" about this, and most of my friends would agree, even if they're attracted to that man. Confusing I know. It's actually the "creepyness" and the "wrongness" of it that turns me on sexually. When I think about the actual age of that guy and how wrong it appears that he specifically seeks out my young age outside of the bedroom, I'm automatically repulsed. Also having to tell my family and being seen in public with him would be extremely embarrassing to me and not worth it, no matter how good looking he is (rare for a 40+ year old anyway). Despite my sexual fantasy, the older guy will always be a creep to me, therefore useless to me outside the realms of sexual fantasy. I really don't think I'm alone here from discussions I've had with friends. You need to think that it might be entirely possible that the very young women you think are attracted to you because of your age may be feeling the same way, or perusing your relationship DESPITE your age because you have a lot of money, so you instantly become more attractive to her. Maybe she can overlook the creepyness in these instances. i would never date an older man or persue a relationship with one for the reasons stated above, but also because I don't want to have to nurse my future husband for the majority of my life. I think this is something older men fail to consider when they persue a girl my age. It will end with her cheating on you.
Gil Galad 2017-03-07 16:15:19
I’m turned on by the thought of sleeping with older men. [...] I know he is a creep because he is deliberately seeking out a girl (me) who he knows is extremely young. There is something “icky” about this [...] even if they’re attracted to that man. [...] It’s actually the “creepyness” and the “wrongness” of it that turns me on sexually. [...] Despite my sexual fantasy, the older guy will always be a creep to me, [...] I really don’t think I’m alone here from discussions I’ve had with friends.Oh my god, if that isn't textbook chick logic, I don't know what is. Let me get this straight. You admit to be attracted to men with a wide age difference from you, and you *know* they're creeps...because they're attracted to women with a wide age difference from them, and actually have the honesty and balls to act on it ? And you keep repeating that "you're not alone in this" and "your friends think the same", way to comfort yourself with collective authority. Instead of calling them creeps, how about calling them real and unapologetic, and calling yourself an inhibited person who needs to face her desires and let go of societal notions of what's "creepy" or proper ? Some women have made the jump and were all the happier for it. Also we don't care about cheating on this blog because we advocate nonmonogamy. And we don't expect relationships to last a lifetime, even if some of us would welcome that.
ThomasNordic 2017-03-07 17:20:38
@Emma, thank you for that superb demonstration of how to limit oneself through cultural norms and the opinions of others. Its perfectly understandable that it affects you but to internalise it to the level where you feel disgust for the very thing that turns you on is just sad. This is similar to what homosexuals still do in many cultures.
John Lant 2017-03-14 00:49:33
HOW DOES ONE CHECK ID AND NOT LOOK CREEPY ASKING TO?
Blackdragon 2017-03-14 11:58:04
HOW DOES ONE CHECK ID AND NOT LOOK CREEPY ASKING TO?If you have to ask such a question, your entire frame is probably creepy/off, and you have to radically shift how you interact with women. I've asked for ID bazillions of times and literally never had a problem with women thinking I was creepy. Get my younger woman book.
Na 2017-03-25 00:30:36
Good read and Great timing! I am 73 yrs old and was contacted a couple months ago for 'Friendship' via Facebook by a 'Younger' women. Long story-short, as it turns out, there are (2) of them and One of me. One is 25, the other is 26 and they are 'Bi' as well. At first I was in total shock/amazement/disbelief AND suspicious. However, up till this coming week, nothing (sexually) has taken place other than discussions about all of our past and the very interesting (to me) topic of their relationship between them. All along, I am busting t the seams, but, I am reaching so deep inside myself too play it so cool it hurts. In addition, I am thinking...OMG, I can't do this, what will people think of me? Thank you Lord...I just read 'this' article and no I feel Blessed beyond belief. Point in fact is that about 2 weeks ago, They brought up the subject/desires for the (3) of us to get away for a while and get too know each other in which All (3) of us had a wink of an eye at nearly the same moment. Btw, I have been Single for nearly 40yrs and relationship have Never come easy for me as I have always been far too picky in my desires. None the less, No body would throw either of these young ladies out of bed for eating peanuts...trust me! Anyhow (dear lord), I promise Not too die with my boots on! Thanks again for this article as I am Now....Good 2 Go!! Btw...I don't Look a day over '60'... LOL.
Daniel 2017-04-25 19:31:23
So, how does this affect your kino escalation on a first date? Are you still going to take her hand, touch her hair, etc. or lay off this kind of thing?
Sue 2017-04-28 12:08:16
As a woman who will turn 50 this year, I found this article to be thought provoking and humorous. I was once young....at 20 dated a 42 year old. I guess I was a type 3. But let's not kid ourselves, this all boils down to fucking someone young. At least the author is self aware of the creepiness. It is creepy. Young women who fuck older guys do it for one of two reasons: Money, and or to be oh-so-edgy ....like earing thier "I fucked an old guy" girlscout badge. So while I think is dispicable to objectify women, those very young women who are fucking you older guys are also objectifying you. Trust me, the do not want a relationship, either, unless you fall into the money category, and they're using you. But it's all legal, so what thw fuck do I care? It is also worth saying....when you refer to those old, fat, sexless wives, it is more fair to focus on the "sexless", and leave out the other judgements. That demeans the relationship between two people who love each other, and fuck regularly, regardless of what the years have done to them. Marriage is a private bond that embodies way more than just having sex. I point that out because I agreed with your methods and truly don't give a shit when there is an equal payoff between two consenting adults----but the jusgement of older, fatter married women has no place in this conversation, and it implies to women that we no longer have sexual value, which couldn't be further from the truth. So, carry on. Good luck! LOL
Blackdragon 2017-04-28 13:41:25
It is creepy.Read this and answer its question.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-04-28 15:08:17
Political Correctness detected! Employing red pill countermeasures now:
But let’s not kid ourselves, this all boils down to fucking someone young.Who has ever kid themselves about that? What's wrong with dating someone young?
At least the author is self aware of the creepiness. It is creepy.Says who? Why is it creepy?
Young women who fuck older guys do it for one of two reasons:Now you are just stereotyping and performing mental gymnastics in order to work around the inconvenient fact that young women have free will, which toughens your competition.
Money, and or to be oh-so-edgy ….like earing thier “I fucked an old guy” girlscout badge.And some of them do it because they're genuinely turned on by older men and turned off by younger ones. Do you also believe that white women date black men only so they can sadistically stick it to daddy?
So while I think is dispicable toThese PC buzz words really have no place here. There is no such thing as "
objectifywomen, objectifyingwomen." You cannot " objectifysomeone." That is a fictional social construct invented by man-hating dykes. Describe the same sexual situation to a high sex drive woman and a low sex drive one and the high sex drive one will refer to it as "empowering" while the low sex drive one (especially if she's in her 50s) will describe it as " objectifying" and "degrading." Peddle your PC garbage words elsewhere or get your head out of your ass!
those very young women who are fucking you older guys are alsoAgain, they can't be
objectifyingyou. objectifyingme because there is no such thing.
Trust me, the do not want a relationship, either,Are you implying that I do? What's the problem?
unless you fall into the money category, and they’re using you.Saying that younger women are all stupid status whores or gold diggers is pretty misogynistic. But then again, women in their 50s hate their young competition.
It is also worth saying….when you refer to those old, fat, sexless wives, it is more fair to focus on the “sexless”, and leave out the other judgements.No it's not. The fact that they're old and fat is very relevant because it explains their bitterness, their misogynistic contempt for "those stupid young bubbleheads," and general loser mentality.
That demeans the relationship between two people who love each otherSo what?
and fuck regularly, regardless of what the years have done to them.I doubt most 50 year old men are having sex regularly with their old, fat, and misogynistic loser wives with zero sex drives. These women are old and fat after all.
Marriage is a private bondMarriage is a fictional piece of paper with zero reality behind it and should be given no more respect than an ancient African rain dance ritual performed for the purposes of watering crops.
I point that out because I agreed with your methods and truly don’t give a shit when there is an equal payoff between two consenting adults—-And yet you are saying that it's "creepy" and using PC buzzwords and feminist created fictions to disparage it.
but the jusgement of older, fatter married women has no place in this conversation,It has every place in the conversation. An old fat female loser has a radically different personality than a young skinny female winner.
and it implies to women that we no longer have sexual value,You don't.
which couldn’t be further from the truth.How do you figure?
J.A. 2017-06-04 21:08:31
Jack in the Box, you are right on. I never understood the whole "dating younger women is creepy" thing. Not all older men are creepy. It is just a tool used by women to make the men that don't want to marry (and be stuck in miserable marriages) unhappy. I talked about this age hang-up thing on another site: http://www.theattractionforums.com/showthread.php?t=170561 On that, there were some quotes that I took from this other blog (that is defunct now). Man, these women are really messed-up. You will see when you read the comments. I also posted a link to an Alternet article that seems to demonize men that don't marry.
Richard 2017-06-05 10:13:11
Thisbis very interesting I've always been attracted to younger girls for many reasons I found myself laughing many times reading this blog. Its all true Ive not been as successful as you but did pretty good and failed alot too. In one recent instance I failed due to the fast email approach. She was an rmt and we clicked right away. I emailed for a follow up and she does house calls haha. She offered it. After my reply she must have done some investigation aka Facebook and came to a conclusion whether on her own or with some outside influence. By the way I'm 50 and she was clearly in her early 20's. I found out she has a 1-2yr old kid so mmm. Been there before. Im thinking she was a type 3 with limits. I look alot youger than I am but she must have known I was at least 15yrs older. Maybe that wss her limit. I had a type 2/3 prior to this that moved on to another dude. Im not missing her. You have to like playing this game and keep your emotions in check. Hense never pursue a type 1. Thats the American Beauty concept. Thats so high school. Richard
DD 2017-06-13 20:47:36
First, I want to have a good time. Laugh, if I'm funny. Find things in common. Meet in a public place. If it works we'll know it, if not. part friends. I'm married.
Marty 2017-06-14 15:01:55
Interesting stuff.. Im 41 and shes 21. We've been friends for about a year now. I'm a small business owner. Within the past 6 months or so, we've been communicating over the phone, texting and having lunch. I give her small gifts every chance i get. I comment on her apprarance and so forth. I asked her to dinner and a movie and she said yes. I was surprised @ her response. Lately, she been telling me where shes at and where shes going. What does that means? ..I dont want to look stupid if I'm not what she wants. I think i'm just afraid of getting rejected for comin off wrong. PLEASE HELP ME.!
Steph 2017-08-08 12:39:39
I've always been attracted to older men. Partly because it feels wrong, partly because I just find them so much more attractive. In school, I never fancied my classmates, I always wanted the teacher. University was the same story. BUT I have to add that most of my young friends actually thought this was hilarious and a bit gross, to be completely honest with you all. Most girls referring to "liking older men" actually mean only 5-10 years older than themselves. Not extreme age differences (although that always really turned me on). I should also point out that a lot of girls at 18-20 are still not really that mature emotionally and so forth. (Not all, but most). I have only once slept with a guy my own age (my first boyfriend. It didn't last long). I always liked men best in their 30s and 40s, occasionally older than that too. But mostly 30s and 40s. My tip to older men wanting to score a younger woman, is to keep yourself fit and look after yourself. And don't come across too desperate or clingy) Now I am about to turn 29 myself, it is a bit of a dilemma for me, because early 30s is now definitely too young, some of them look way too young for my taste....and I am still more attracted to the older men. But I am getting older too, which I hate. Now, generally men in their 40s appeal to me the most. Whilst I do find men in their mid-late 30s attractive too, I feel the age gap isn't quite enough for me. I think realistically for a relationship, up to 25 years age gap could work. A 15-20 year age gap would be ideal. If it is just a bit of fun, however, it doesn't really matter how old someone is, it is only about attraction. I have no interest in anyone younger than me, that is a big turn off for me. I should point out that I have never actively looked for a relationship, as I am a person who is very happy alone and likes my own company. I have never been the kind of girl who dreamt about marriage and raising children. I have always loved sex and tend to get on better with men than women (except for a few good female friends who are more like myself!) I think honestly that most men are at their best appearance-wise between 35 - 45, providing they have kept reasonably fit. Most women from 18 - 35. But obviously, this isn't the case for every person. I know women who are in their mid 40s for example who are seriously stunning and look a lot better than some of my younger friends who have let themselves go already and don't take enough care about their appearance to have much chance of being an attractive 40 year old later. It's about taking care of yourself and your appearance. Having and raising children often also ages a woman, although some women manage to still be attractive even after that. I personally never want children. I don't like them. Men also tend to get unfit and that will lower your chances with a younger woman. Most women who like much older men still want the man to take care of himself to a certain degree and still be fit and healthy. My problem is that I worry a LOT about getting older myself and not being attractive to men anymore, as I want to stay young! These older guys are looking for girls from 18-23... I am already older than that. I still feel like I did at 18 and it scares me as I watch all my friends getting married, having babies and then appearing their age for doing so. I feel and look younger than I am. But maybe this is what turns me on about older men... that being with someone older makes me feel even younger myself and I want to keep feeling young and sexy. It turns me on to think I can be someone's trophy girlfriend or that they really really want me. I believe men like younger women for the same reason - it makes them feel good about themselves. I currently like a man who is 17 years older than I am. I believe he likes me too, but unfortunately, he is not available.
Michael 2017-10-03 14:16:40
Great article. I just started dating much younger women (I'm 48), and this hot 22 year old put the freakin' screws to me after 4 dates.. She's definitely not open to an open relationship, so I've had to put all my others on indefinite hold. This chick is awesome, so it's worth seeing how it goes.
Gil Galad 2017-10-03 14:33:18
@Michael: if I understand your comment correctly you are massively screwing this up. Read more of this blog is my advice.
Mark 2017-10-29 19:45:42
I was looking around the Internet for some advice concerning dating younger women and found your post. I am in my mid 50’s and trying to build a relationship with a younger women, 23 that seems to be somewhat receptive to my advances. We have been out to a movie that served food and drinks, and we had a good time. I don’t want to ruin the relationship we currently are experiencing and do not want to become the “creepy” old guy. Please give me some additional advise as to how I should proceed; it’s been a few weeks since we went out, but we have seen each other socially. Thanks
alice 2017-11-27 11:22:43
Ok I should clear this up for you guys clearly since you think you have it all down. Yes type 2 women do like older men but even they have limits , but they also have exceptions . The key is letting her decide what she wants with you, not the other way around . Don’t treat her like a damn piece of meat you can just have on the side. Any self respecting woman will not tolerate your bs . Don’t “push the envelope” don’t try to control the situation , live your life normally and act how you normally would. The types you’re talking about seem to have a kink for it instead of being naturally attracted to men who happen to be older . So if you’re dealing with a woman in her 20s let her decide how much she wants with you , whether it be just hanging out with you, or something more serious. The stupidest thing you can do is try to control where the relationship goes and think of her as just some “kid” or some “young girl” who can’t make her own decisions. If you won’t take her seriously, it’s better she doesn’t waste her time with a loser like that, that loser being you in this case if you act like that.
Tim 2018-04-10 05:35:05
Thanks for the tips BD. I'm 47 and recently started seeing a 23 year old. It's true what they say about only being as old as the woman you feel. The sex has been awesome and for someone so young I'm continually amazed at her skills in the bedroom. You're right about not trying to act younger than you are - I thought to myself "who am I trying to kid" so I didn't bother. I just tried the cool, calm, sophisticated, well-dressed older man approach and it literally charmed the panties off her. Thanks for the warning about getting too sexual too soon - I did tell her about a pretty explicit fantasy involving her and fortunately she took it in her stride but I took a big risk. I thought I might have blown it but after a while she texted "That sounds like an amazing dream!! Maybe one day we can play it out x". Given that my fantasy ended with her kissing me goodbye still naked and covered in my cum then I might have been lucky there! Having a high disposable income is a big advantage. I've told her that I'm happy to buy her nice lingerie and today she was busy taking me up on the offer. Of course the quid pro quo is that I get plenty of sex in return, or at least I hope to if I can get away from my work. She's has a pretty face and hot little body. Her breasts are small but I actually quite like that as I get older. I'm well endowed and she's very tight so we're limited to just a few positions, but it hasn't dampened her enthusiasm one bit. All up I'd have to give her a 9 out of 10. The icing on the cake for me is that she has a housemate who she tells me is "into older men". I'm not sure if this is some kind of a test or whether she is giving me the green light to bed her housemate as well. Her housemate is blonde and a little overweight but still attractive and quite a prize in her own right. So far I've studiously avoided making any remarks about threesomes but I'm not sure how long I can last! Thanks again for your tips.
Jimmy 2018-05-06 14:10:46
Great read. Help a lot. Thanks. Im in the best shape of my life. But my age has my confidence at a low. This read was helpful thanks again
Kay 2018-06-19 21:32:08
Proud type 2 here. We exist, although I disagree with my age group not wanting commitment. Most of these points ring true. Older, wiser, stable and ready to commit guys are such a turn on. It’s also nice to know that despite the man’s age his still extremely sexual. Many women get trapped by dudes who marry and use getting old as an excuse to not intimately please their partner. It’s nice to know his drive is here to stay.
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Just want to validate that the younger woman phenomena is real ...I would not have believed this 5 years ago. In my youth, I had limited success with woman. The last 3 years has been an incredibly pleasant surprise Currently 63 years old executive...I have had a 2 year relationship with a fairly attractive an intelligent professional woman that is 15 years my younger. I hooked up with another woman at a trade show that was 20 years my younger. Now I am making romantic encounter plans with a gorgeous professional girl that is 30 years my younger. When I was a desperate 25 year old, I could not have seen this type of success. My relationships have ranged from very emotionally intense to random sex, both with their perks. I'm not trying to brag here, but I think message is consistent with the article. This phenomena is a late life gift to my ego and compensates for marriage deficiencies. The older man syndrome is alive and well...not just fiction. I am a believer.