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Thrill of the Hunt Men vs. Pleasure of Sex Men
-By Caleb Jones
This will clear up a lot of confusion you may have regarding conflicting advice in the seduction realm. Few men are aware that in terms of men who engage in seduction as a lifestyle or pastime, there are two types. These two types of men are both Alphas, both successful, and both have the same goal, that of having sex with women, ideally multiple women and ideally faster rather than slower.
However, the way these two types of men go about how they find and seduce women is very, very different. Often these types of men will get into huge arguments about the "right" way to date / seduce / be in relationships with women.
I have always called these two types of men Thrill of the Hunt men (TH men) or Pleasure of Sex men (PS men).
Before I describe each, it's important to understand three things:
1. Neither type is any better than the other. They’re just different. As you’re about to see, there are a lot of pros and cons to both types.
2. Both types of men are Alpha males. Both types can be skilled at seduction and/or relationships. Both are “cool”.
3. As you read through the descriptions of these two types of men, I promise you that the majority of you are going to think, “I’m a little bit of both.” While it is true that many men have some TH and PS traits, you are not “both”.
No. No matter how much of both you have, one of them is stronger in you than the other. That being said, some guys can be extreme in their style (TH or PS) and some guys just be “standard” in their style. The point is you have a "dominant" style.
The Difference Between The Two
PS men desire sex. They don’t care how they get it as long as it’s easy, quick, and not a lot of trouble. For TH men, the hunt is just as important as the sex, if not more so.
That’s really it…but it’s a big difference.
TH men are always pushing themselves to the limit, trying to accomplish difficult lays. Scoring a gal who was a really hard lay is a huge source of pleasure for them. The harder the lay, the more they had to work, the more they had to push themselves, the better they like it. Whenever you read about a 45 minute bathroom lay at a club, you’re likely reading about a TH man. Whenever you read about a guy battling a chick’s reluctant ASD for hours to score that SNL, you’re likely reading about a TH man.
On the other hand, PS men just want to get laid. They want to get to the sex as easily as possible without a lot of hassle, even if the methods they use are considered “boring” or “too easy” or "not game". They just want the sex...they don’t give a shit about the hunt. As a matter of fact, extreme PS men consider the hunt as tedious and a pain in the ass. They'll do it, but only to get laid. Once they get laid, then they're happy. Again, they don’t care how they get it. They just want it. Whenever you read about a guy talking about how great Tinder is, or how great Facebook is for getting have sex with exes, you're likely looking at a PS guy.
TH men view the process of seduction as fun and thoroughly enjoyable. PS men view the process of seduction as a necessary evil. Either approach can be effective. One wants to push himself to accomplish great things, the other wants to get laid as fast and easily as possible.
TH men tend to have very strong game. They know how to get laid under all kinds of conditions. TH men are hardcore players, and will often stay in sarging mode for long stretches, often measured in years. They love one night stands and get sexually bored with women reasonably fast. Their relationships with women tend to be brief and non-serious (FBs). When they actually get into serious relationships, they tend to cheat. (More on this in a minute.) They are constantly striving to improve and push the envelope, and take great pleasure in their successes.
On the other hand, PS men game just enough to get laid and create a relationship or two, and that's it. They don't push for constant improvement in their game like TH men. Rather, they only master their game enough to work well in one or two key areas they're comfortable with, and that's all. They sarge for new women only when they really need to do it, tending more towards relationships (sometimes monogamous, sometimes open/poly; it depends on the guy and where he is in life).
Game Styles Preferences
TH men naturally gravitate towards styles of game that are “harder”, like club game or street game. They disdain things like online game or going out on "dates". Style (Neil Strauss), who back in his prime was a hardcore TH guy, once wrote that he tried online game, had sex with five women in a row very fast, and then stopped doing it.
Why? It was “too easy” he said. As a TH man, he didn't want the hunt to be easy…that ruins the whole point for them. They often look down at guys having sex with women on the second date for example, because to them that’s “too easy” and “doesn't require any game”.
PS men are the exact opposite. They will gravitate towards game styles that are “easier” or more low-key, like online game and indirect daygame. Once they find a seduction method that works for them, they will likely stick with that method and not bother to learn any other methods.
Reaction To ASD
When a TH man encounters ASD, he gets very excited at the challenge and will dive right in. He will happily spend hours battling ASD to win his prize.
When a PS man encounters ASD, he might try a thing or two, but if they don’t work, he bails fast and is off to the next gal. PS men despise women who are "bitches" or "too much work".
Whenever a TH man gets monogamous, for a while he likes it, but soon he gets very uncomfortable because he’s out of the hunt. Because of this, TH men tend to be cheaters, cheating on women as a regular practice, even if they truly love the woman they're with and feel bad about what they're doing. TH men need to hunt. TH relationships almost always tend to end up being either very short-term serial monogamist ones, or "monogamous" relationships where he’s cheating, either in secret (so she doesn't know) or not in secret, putting up with an angry but tolerating girlfriend or wife.
(A friend of mine calls these "Mad Men Marriages"...in my ebooks I call them "Mediterranean Marriages"; a high-drama marriage where the husband cheats, the wife knows it, hates it, and bitches about it constantly, but stays with the husband anyway because of logistical, financial, family, or religious reasons.)
There are some TH men who master open/poly relationships, but for some reason most TH men tend to avoid these, preferring the perceived security of "monogamous" relationships, even if they're short-term and/or if they're secretly cheating.
PS men are very different, both in good ways and bad.
On the bad side, they tend to get into relationships must faster than TH men and also tend to get needy and oneitisy faster. PS men tend to be much more “relationshippy” than TH men. (Many TH men don’t even like talking about relationships in detail and often consider it pussy-talk, even if they currently have a girlfriend of their own). PS men also tend to put up with more crap (i.e. drama) from a woman they’re with than TH men, who will just use it as an excuse to next the woman and get right back into the hunt.
On the plus side, when PS men man-up, get some outcome independence, and learn relationship skills, they can easily create a lifestyle where they get the sex they crave as easily as they like, living much more even-keel lives than their often chaotic TH brothers.
Disagreements Between The Two Types
TH men tend to view PS men as pussies, betas, or lazy. They view PS men as not wanting to push themselves to be better men. Whenever you see a club game guy bash online game, this is the dynamic you’re seeing.
PS men tend to view TH men as teenage-like, validation-seeking, or time-wasters. Whenever you see a guy on a PUA forum telling another guy to "grow up", or say something like “Dude WTF? Why did you stay up until 3am to fuck so-and-so when you could have just fucked so-and-so in probably an hour? That’s dumb!”, this is the dynamic you’re seeing.
Many times, arguments in the seduction community and manosphere often are not about the actual topic being discussed. The disagreements might look like it’s about game style or technique or psychology, when in fact it's simply a demonstration of the sheer difference between how TH men and PS men view the world of women.
As I said, there is no right or wrong side here. Both types of men have good points. It will be no surprise to learn that I myself am an extreme PS guy. Many years ago I had some very big arguments with some TH guys, until I realized what was going on. That’s when I stopped arguing with TH guys, acknowledged that how they viewed the process of seduction was very different than me, and moved on.
The TH man who is constantly pushing others to strive and improve does have a point. The PS man who thinks it’s stupid to stay up until 4am at a club on a weeknight just to get laid also has a point. They’re both right, just looking at things very differently.
Where Do You Fit In?
It's very helpful to identify yourself. You’re either a predominantly TH man or a PS man. Yes, you may have aspects of both, but you’ll have a dominant one. Once you figure out what type of guy you are, you should be congruent with that.
TH men should always stay in the hunt. Always! The minute you get taken out of the hunt (due to monogamy or complacency or despondency) is the minute you start to implode, and often get depressed. You should also strongly consider never getting absolutely monogamous (unless you enjoy drama).
PS men should never feel pressured to learn game styles or techniques that seem “cool”. They should do what works for them, not whatever the current PUA / manosphere trend is. More importantly, PS men should never settle for one magical pussy, and as a PS man you'll be very tempted to do this. They should always be aware that ALL RELATIONSHIPS ARE TEMPORARY and you should always be honing your skills.
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dcl 2014-05-11 10:53:31
This was great. Very insightful. You gave me some things to ponder. Thanks for sharing.
AKA 2014-05-11 12:11:14
WEll done Blackdragon. PS man myself. I look at game as a means to an end. It is just a necessary evil to get what I want. TH men have a certain drive towards excellence about game that makes them superior to PS men. And that is fine. You have to go with what is natural to yourself.
Eldm 2014-05-11 12:24:25
so basically TH = extroverted men, PS = introverted men
Blackdragon 2014-05-11 13:35:29
Half right, half wrong. There are many PS men who are very extroverted. I know a few. But to your point, I can't think of any introverted TH men. I'm sure they're out there, but I can't think of one at the moment.
jack 2014-05-11 14:34:47
How does scale to age? If a guy is great at game in his 20s or early 30s, he can put up crazy numbers. I remember a natural friend of mine sleeping with 100 girls a year for a 2 or 3 year period. He was a ONS specialist obviously. I don't think he ever banged the same girl twice. But there are very few guys in their 40s capable of doing that. A man's sexual needs decrease with age. In my 40s now, I can't even imagine the effort of going out 4-6 nights per week and staying out to 4am (or later) every night.
Free&Strong 2014-05-11 16:27:41
Insightful stuff BD. I know for a long time, once I discovered "game", I tried to make myself into a TH. I saw guys like Neil Strauss and Mystery and thought they had the One Magic Pill, the only one, that would work on women. I figured THIS was the way you attracted women and I had to learn it, otherwise I was screwed. Well, after many years of self discovery and frustration, I realized that those "harder" forms of game just don't suit me and I actually DIDN'T have to master that form of game to get what I desired. I'm a PS guy; I want sex and I don't care about fancily I go about getting it. I will note that, yes, I am a fairly introverted guy, so I'm sure that has some strong correlation to the type of game I prefer and the motivations behind why I approach a woman. PS men prefer efficiency; TH men want competition. Like you said BD, neither is right or wrong. Just insightful to find out where we all fit in the scheme of things.
Blackdragon 2014-05-11 21:30:03
How does scale to age?That's a very difficult question and I don't think there's a standard answer. One one hand, while a guy in his 40s can't go sleep with 100 women a year, he certainly can be a TH man in that he's a horny bastard who loves variety and is constantly sleeping with new women. I certainly do know a few TH men in their 40s, not to mention many celebrities (Bret Michaels, etc) who spend most of their forties hunting for new chicks. On the other hand, even hardcore TH players eventually want to settle down as they age, and I've noticed this tends to kick in between age 35 and 43 for most players I've seen. Then despite their TH nature they will try their best to get married, monogamous, or whatever. (Whether or not they succeed is another conversation.) So my guess would be this is a sum total of age + personality (extrovert/introvert) + sexual experience + sex drive + desire for "the hunt" vs just sex. Therefore, age is a factor, but not the only factor. Again, I'm just guessing here; I could be wrong.
JFUNK 2014-05-11 22:37:46
You've said before that if you had a single hot girl that didn't get fat, unfailingly wanted sex whenever you did, etc, that you would have no further need for variety. Don't buy it. The attitude toward the process I agree with. Not that part. You're a connoisseur of fine young women. I see the way you gush about the variety. And I believe you will keep that going as long as your age and sex drive permits. PoS people can crave variety too.
Johnny Caustic 2014-05-11 23:02:51
The canonical introverted Thrill-of-the-Hunt seducer is Mystery. I met him back when he'd just invented the seduction workshop, and I think he's genuinely the introverted, slightly geeky genius of game he claimed to be back in the early days of alt.seduction.fast. Mystery is what happens when an brilliant, obsessive engineer finds the technical problem he was born to solve and makes it his life. The fact that his solution involves simulating an extravert adds some sweet irony. It's not really an oxymoron, though; lots of charismatic stage performers are introverts offstage. I met Neil Strauss during the same seduction workshop, and I don't think he's a natural extravert either.
dcl 2014-05-12 00:25:25
This is great. Thanks for sharing. -dcl
Kevin Velasco 2014-05-12 13:56:25
I'm slowly becoming an Apathetic Man ... apathetic towards sex, society, existence, etc.
Peter 2014-05-13 05:05:26
RSD teaches the huntsmen style. You know that relationship book that Owen (Tyler) was talking about in a few of his video's years ago? Yeah, that one is never going to come out. Julian from RSD is a good example of an introverted huntsmen. Papa (co founder of RSD) is a good PSM example.
Nihilist 2014-05-13 06:12:35
Kevin Velasco, many don't reach apathy until the physical burden of existence becomes too much. You are of the mental variety- a rare variety indeed who realizes the futile nature of trying to do anything, only to have to repeatedly do it again and again, but each time gaining less and less satisfaction. I can suggest a few resources of interesting perspectives if you're interested.
OliveR 2014-05-13 06:45:16
Nihilist, please do suggest them, he's not the only one interested.
Nihilist 2014-05-13 09:34:12
There's a user on YouTube whose name is TueenTuo (when you search the name, you'll have to go to the second results page to find his videos). He really breaks the life game down - gets rid of basically all the societal programming you've ever been told. It's like what Blackdragon does with fairy tale love (monogamy) except this guy does it with everything. The user Inmendham is also a pretty smart guy, though he's very radical and sometimes that can cloud his content. On Facebook, try the group Nihilistic Hell. Just be warned, these people are past the whole "Life is great, I'm going to have a fun time living it" phase. They're concerned with existence and whether it's even valuable (you obviously know the answer to that one).
Freestyle 2014-05-13 12:05:08
BD, I think you are to some extent creating a false dichotomy here. The tendencies are NOT mutually exclusive. I view it as more of a spectrum, and I personally find myself all over it, depending on the day, the life circumstance, mood, etc.. On the whole, I average about 50/50. There are periods where I just want to have a routine life and have women come over to keep the rhythm going, and others (like now), where I will be "on the prowl" so-to-speak, pursuing every new shiny cutie who crosses my path. There is no rational reason why a guy can't have an MLTR, while still pursuing a series of FBs on an ongoing basis. I realize that your acquisition style (The "online bombardment" once or twice yearly) and tendency to overcompartmentalize are at work here. This is fine, but shouldn't define how all men do or should operate. Also, I think it is no surprise to me that your pic of the "TH" guy is a buffoonish caricature, while you "PS" guy is all sly and sexy (looking remarkably like a certain axe-wielding forum kingpin of Eurasian extraction;) Love the blog, but just trying to inject a bit more nuance, subtlety into the topic. At some point it becomes at least a craft, if not an art, and there is freedom to pursue it creatively.
Blackdragon 2014-05-13 17:30:35
You’ve said before that if you had a single hot girl that didn’t get fat, unfailingly wanted sex whenever you did, etc, that you would have no further need for variety. Don’t buy it. The attitude toward the process I agree with. Not that part. You’re a connoisseur of fine young women. I see the way you gush about the variety. And I believe you will keep that going as long as your age and sex drive permits. PoS people can crave variety too.Completely agree.
The tendencies are NOT mutually exclusive. I view it as more of a spectrum, and I personally find myself all over it, depending on the day, the life circumstance, mood, etc.I generally agree but I also think the vast majority of men have one that is more dominant most of the time. "Most" meaning more than 50%. If you're literally 50/50 at all times, you may be an exception to the rule.
Also, I think it is no surprise to me that your pic of the “TH” guy is a buffoonish caricature, while you “PS” guy is all sly and sexy (looking remarkably like a certain axe-wielding forum kingpin of Eurasian extraction;)Yeah, well, best I could do. I'm definitely no expert on picking out ideal pictures for this blog. Definitely not one of my strengths. And by the way, there are lots of guys in the PUAverse who don't think that guy looks like a "caricature" at all, and look just like him.
thinking 2014-05-14 04:35:45
"I’m definitely no expert on picking out ideal pictures for this blog." - I actually think the pictures you use are more times than not very well placed. These two here, not so much, but a lot of them are pretty unique.
OliveR 2014-05-14 06:03:45
Thank you Nihilist, I will watch, and ponder...
PUA Brian Kinney 2014-05-14 11:11:15
Bravo BD! Another masterpiece. One of those posts that drastically change the way you look at your own life. You were right about me I'm a TH man all the way, a hardcore TH man. "And by the way, there are lots of guys in the PUAverse who don’t think that guy looks like a “caricature” at all, and look just like him." Ha ha, yes there are many lets say, extremely extroverted PUAs, but I agree with Freestyle, fortunately, all hardcore THs guys like myself are aware that we are very well represented by at least 95% of seduction legends, guys like: James Bond, Hank Moody, James Dean, Christian Troy... "TH MEN NEED TO HUNT" This is so obvious, but it never occurred to me before, I finally understand why sometimes I feel so sad when I'm doing the "right things" this is, when I'm in an exclusive relationship with "Mrs perfect". I need to hunt. Most of Men and women in society hates and fears men like us because most men are pussies and can't be like us (not necessarily a TH guy but a guy who sleeps with tons of women) and most women "think" they want those pussies to get marry not a warrior looking for adventures but we all know they cheat their beta, pussy, spineless boyfriend/husband with us. So I always felt bad and guilty about my nature, but now I understand this is who I am, I'm a hunter and I need to hunt, this is what I love to do. By the way BD, this is the core of the CTD right? The eternal dilemma between what TH men (and surely many PS men) want and what society wants for them. "This is such a big topic that it will likely be the first of several posts I make about this." I definitely can see why, there are so many ramifications of this, but, for now, how do you think that we as TH men can manage our lifestyle logistics, emotions, resources, and still fit in society? No more discussions with my PS buddies ha ha. BD: You're improving the quality of your posts, Congratulations!, are you doing something different? PUA Brian Kinney
Henry 2014-05-14 19:21:08
So what says Brian Kinney PUA? And what happened to the ultimate TH man, glen P? His blog just stopped w/ no explanation.
Henry 2014-05-14 19:55:37
Actually, just checked and the ultimate TH Glen 'Pierce'blog is up, so my bad. BD, congrats on this major insight, although TH guys may deny it.
Freestyle 2014-05-16 07:26:52
Before the terms "Thrill Of The Hunt" or "Pleasure Of Sex" came up on MASF/Sedfast (might be your terms BD), I used "Pussy Hunter" v. "Pussy Farmer". The first is hooked on the adventure, the second looks for a secure form of "sustenance". When you do your "online bombardment", it's like a farmer plowing the fields and sowing seed, so he doesn't have to spend cold winter days going out in the snow drifts to get game for the table. This also applies to overall lifestyle, but that is another topic.
Ron Ritzman 2014-07-20 05:51:40
Though you didn't talk about this, there's a subgroup among TH guys who I've always called "beltnotchers". For them, sex is more about "bragging rights" then the pleasure of sex. A pure TH guy may get personal pleasure from a "hard conquest" but for a beltnotcher, the pleasure comes from telling his friends "I fucked Helen Hardlay". Media stories about high school "points for sex" clubs are all about this attitude.
mrkitti 2014-09-06 18:46:37
i find this very interesting. But i would very much like to see a post about the undercategories. i find myself in the TH in every way, but i dont get a kick of how hard it was to get it. I get a kick of adding a number to my list of lays, and the hotter, the better. And the easier, the better.
Martin 2016-03-24 23:58:11
While I am NEITHER, yet, I will likely be a PS guy. If I get really good, or have plenty of pussy on the back end, I could see going on a Conquest of an ASD woman. Stupid biatch SHOULD be conquered, LOL. So yeah, a bit on the lazier side, JUST want the pussy with as little fuss and muss as possible, but ASD OFFENDS me to such a degree that, again, if I get good, I would want to topple that shit as often as possible. Just on general principle.
workgamer 2016-05-25 18:34:18
as i do appreciate your blog very much i think this discussion is silly, theres something about american culture that's so into labels all those people declaring "i'm an introverted/extroverted" that's driving me insane. i can confidently say i fit into the extremes of both categories on different day's. use to have great long lasting FB and was happy with that, made me calm. than again today i haven't answered a chic cause i was feeling like going hunting in the streets. and sometimes i just prefer to watch tv than do any sex. i'm also undefined bisexual so have a personal issue with labeling lol i do have a question about the advice you gave about not making one pussy holly. i understand the logic of it, but, and that's something that's very not spoken about in the pua i sow, after spending time in a relationship, you do bound to get attached to the women your with...is that so bad?
Blackdragon 2016-05-25 23:51:21
after spending time in a relationship, you do bound to get attached to the women your withNot if she's an FB. Only if she's an MLTR or OLTR.
…is that so bad?It depends on what you mean by "bound." If by bound you mean happy, or love, or enjoying spending time with her, then no. If by bound you mean making monogamy promises to her, making major compromises in order to keep her, or putting up with her drama, then yes. The rest of your comment I might make a blog post about.
CTV 2016-07-06 12:56:07
I'm a Thrill of the Hunt guy by far. See what I'm aspiring for is to MLTR's, I try to stay good with random hookups. I know y'all may laugh including you BD, but I actually do like Romantic stuff like flowers, chocolates, real affection etc. I am a recovered/recovering GUY DISNEY dumbass but I still do like some of that stuff, in a genuine way to build a connection. Being a Thrill of the Hunt guy trying FB's from online or so doesn't work from me, I've tried it many times and I step up to the plate and loose interest. Even getting a girls number off Social Media.. I either am ADD or just have a fucked up memory. The thing is I do crave a connection too, BUT I CAN'T GET OFF THAT HUNT. Problem is if my hunt ain't good that equals dry spell. Although I can most def see how my type of guy as I was reading how guys like me wanna relax in monogamy. Honestly after reading the article on here about Quality not always equaling Happiness I can see how I would find a low drama submissive type girl (possibly independent) and feel like I'd want to be monogamous if she was that badass (I know anti Alpha 2.0). That Hunt can be fucking exhausting. I really do value submissive type women. Growing up in a house with a mom who drives me fucking crazy,gives me drama and plays stupid games, Although I've made very clear boundaries. It's also made me VERY Alpha 1.0. Think Tony Soprano.. Yells a lot, crazy mom, really social, and really assertive. I'm not a perfect Alpha 2.0 yet, still very 1.0.
CurtsNOKC 2016-12-08 17:06:07
Wow. Why in the hell would a man be TH over PS? I must be 99.98% PS than cuz I literally hate almost everything about the TH group. It's exhausting and very inefficient. As a matter of fact, I have thought about writing a bathroom reader book about the crazy stories and things that occur while hunting just to help me endure the frustration of how crazy many chics are today in the USA due to social programming. If I was a Beta male still, I'd probably shoot myself or take the red pill bs lol. I probably would not believe you that a man could be more TH than PS but after meeting my ex-wifes BF, I can honestly say they do exist but wow. He's basically a highly-extroverted-know-it-all-control-freak-fire-fighter-cheater and gets a rush out of the whole chasing thing then gets bored and repeats. Sounds awful like a woman to me lol =)) But I was looking at my high success rates and getting ladies to come back to me after they leave and get mad (thanks to you btw ). It's about 70 or 80% the last 3 years. Probably more like 90% the last year the more I have become more Alpha 2 so that is very exciting. But I would be willing to bet that men who are more PS would have a higher % on this because we are not so focused on the hunt but on keeping women in our lives long-term. So, guys that are higher TH probably have a lower % coming back to them for sex I bet. Since their focused more on new chics. Any research on this by chance? My rush is more on the Longevity and continuation of the relationship for years or as long as possible and as a PS man, I consider that my "hunt" or challenge I guess lol. So TH guys probably faster at finding ladies and quicker at getting the spinning plates and PS guys slower but better at keeping a higher % of these plates spinning long-term. Very interesting stuff!
Niteride Mick 2017-06-05 13:10:50
Hey BD isn't it about good sex ,not. about scoring lays True Bob the mad rooter might get to shag the stuck up girl at the club ,but I bet she's a. dead root And Bob will never tell you she is !! Cheers
Olmeda 2019-11-28 01:25:24
The more I read, the more the greater your content is.