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Effective Answers To 8 Questions She Gives You In An Open Relationship
-By Caleb Jones
But that's an entire ebook (albeit a short one), and there are many other questions you can get. Today I'll list all (or at least most) the possible questions you may get during the first three to five months of a new nonmonogamous relationship.
A quick review to put this all in the proper context. The relationship structure I talk about, and have done successfully many times over many years (as have many other men) is to follow this sequence:
1. Start dating a woman.
2. Never bring up monogamy or exclusivity.
3. Keep dating other women and don't hide this.
4. Don't act like a "boyfriend".
5. Do not discuss "the relationship", and avoid the topic of monogamy/exclusivity if she brings it up, and do this for at least three months, preferably five months or more.
6. Finally have "The Talk" about your nonmonogamous status three to five months in when she really demands answers.
Today's article is to help you manage item number five. However, it's very important to understand that the answers to the following questions will only help you if you are following the above sequence. They will not help you if you've done things wrong, such as:
- Promise monogamy and then get caught cheating.
- Stayed nonmonogamous but acted like a boyfriend with her. (Fancy dates, buying gifts, texting her all the time, introducing her to your family, etc.)
- Spent too much time with her (more than once a week during the first three to five months).
- Throw the fact that you're having sex with other women in her face (i.e. telling her all about it, or plastering it all over your Facebook page, etc).
So remember, the answers I'm about to give you are not magic bullets. If you screwed other things up such as the items above, they won't help it all. It will only help if you're doing everything else more or less correctly. (For more details on how to create and structure these kinds of relationships, go right here.)
I'm also going to repeat one of my cardinal rules. Do not lie to women. Lying to women is what monogamous men do. Lying is for beta males and Alpha Male 1.0s. You should be better than that. Refusing to answer questions is fine. Dodging questions is also fine. Giving silly, sarcastic answers is also fine. None of those things are lying. Trust me, when a woman asks you if you're still fucking other women and you refuse to answer the question, she knows the answer you're telling her is "yes". Women aren't stupid.
My point here is don't tell a woman you're not having sex with other women if you are. Don't tell women you love them if you don't. Don't tell women you want a serious relationship if you really don't. Dodge, avoid, refuse, stay silent...but don't lie.
Lastly, some answers are going to be different based on if the woman is an FB, MLTR, or candidate for OLTR. (A actual OLTR will never ask you these questions, because you've already explained everything and made commitments.) If you are unclear on these terms, refer to the glossary before continuing.
Alrightee, given the parameters above, here are the questions you are likely to encounter during the first three to five months of your new poly or open relationship, and some ways to answer them. What you say is in quotes " ", other actions and my comments are within pointy brackets < >.
"What am I to you?"
FB: "You're my good friend, and I value our relationship."
MLTR or OLTR Candidate: "You're a very important person in my life. You're very special to me."
"What is this to you?"
FB: "That's a very odd question."
MLTR or OLTR Candidate: "We're dating. And no, I'm not having a soap-opera discussion about our 'relationship' so let's not go there."
"Where do you see this going?"
FB: never get this kind of question from an FB. If you do, that means you have completely screwed up your EFA and have either been dishonest with her (bad) or extremely incongruent with her (also bad). FBs know where the relationship is "going", which is nowhere except more friend-with-benefits sex.>
MLTR: "I see it going. And going and going and going...forever and ever...."
OLTR Candidate: "I see you and I together for a very long time. But I've been burned before so you need to give me a little time, okay? Let's revisit this later."
"So are we, like, dating?"
FB: "You're my friend, and I value our relationship."
MLTR or OLTR Candidate: "Yeah. Duh."
"I want to be your girlfriend."
FB: "I care about you a lot, and I value the time we spend together, but that's not how I see us."
MLTR: "I care about you a lot...I just don't like that term. It always causes drama and I don't do that."
OLTR Candidate if sooner than three months: "Give me a little more time, okay?"
OLTR Candidate if between three and six months: open relationships ebook refers to as the Verbalization Point. (No, I will not describe The Talk in this article. That's a completely different topic.)>
OLTR Candidate if after six months and everything's been great: Go ahead and make her your girlfriend (full OLTR status) and set your ground rules as couple. Just make damn sure she understands you're still allowed to discreetly get some on the side within those rules. Do not go monogamous, and instantly soft next her if she issues any ultimatums.
"Are you still having sex with other women?"
Refer to my free ebook for that particular question.
"I know you're still seeing other women." or "I know you're still fucking other girls."
As you can see, this is not a question, but a challenge, often issued in a crass or snide way. Just smile and don't say anything. Say nothing or change the subject. If she pushes you just say, "I'm not discussing that."
"Do you want a serious relationship?"
Since we're not going to lie to women, this answer depends on if you really do want a serious relationship or not. So I've included two sets of answers; one if you do, one if you don't.
FB if you don't: "I just do my own thing."
MLTR if you don't: "I like what we have."
OLTR Candidate if you don't:
FB if you do: "I just do my own thing."
MLTR if you do: "Sure. Someday. But I'm not discussing this today."
OLTR Candidate if you do: "Oh yes. Very much so. But I really don't want to talk about this right now, okay?"
Don't Have A Discussion!
You may notice that "changing the subject" is a common move. You're damn right it is. Your primary, number one goal when you get a question like this is to NOT get into a discussion about the relationship. If you get into a discussion, YOU LOSE.
Any discussion about the relationship must only happen on your timetable when you've had time to prepare and you know exactly what you're going to do or say. Men constantly screw up by getting into relationship discussions when a woman corners them, and these guys always, and I mean always damage the relationship when this happens.
I'll say it again: Relationship discussions only occur on your timetable, not hers. You must have the balls to adamantly refuse to get into any relationship discussions with her if you value the relationship. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but it's the truth.
The only valid relationship discussion to ever have is:
1. The Talk, that occurs three to five months in (or longer!) where you actually verbalize what she already knows (because you've been demonstrating it), which is that you will never be monogamous, but might be willing to pursue something serious if she's an MLTR or OLTR candidate.
2. When you upgrade a woman to OLTR, where you lay out ground rules and make promises. Obviously the vast majority of women you date will never get this talk.
Other than those two exceptions that happen when YOU choose to have them, NO RELATIONSHIP DISCUSSIONS! Especially not when she happens to throw a tricky question at you.
If she throws one of those questions at you, relax, answer her question, change the subject, and if she challenges you, man-up and tell her you're not discussing it right now. And by the way, the more women you're seeing besides her, the easier this is to do. Don't forget that.
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lazy guy 2014-06-22 19:33:35
good info! thanks BD!
Dawson Stone 2014-06-23 08:36:39
I have tried 100% honesty before and it has many merits I won't deny. I have found that in my experience I have to drop my quality by a solid point (on average) if I am totally open about non-monogamy. For me it breaks down like this: 25% know i see other women but we never talk about it 40% don't ask and probably just hope I am not seeing other people 35% I lie and say I am only seeing them I don't like being less than honest but I like lowering my quality even more so I deal with a touch of guilt. I feel like the bottom line is that like any supply and demand curve the more options someone has (and the hottest girls have the most options) the less bullshit they will tolerate. BD do you believe you can have the same quality women (in terms of looks, intelligence, fun, skill in bed, etc) being 100% honest or is it a tradeoff for you where you lower quality (but not by too much) but reduce guilt?
Blackdragon 2014-06-23 10:11:30
I am 100% honest at all times. I'm just not going to disclose everything about my sex life on the third or fourth date. Women don't disclose these kinds of things to us this soon (or ever), so I'm not sure why some men think we must disclose everything up front when women clearly do not. The actual verbalization does happen. It just happens a few months into the relationship, that's all. Until then, it's extreme nonmonogamous subcommuncation (EFA) which women do understand...better than men do in fact. Therefore, no, I have not noticed a reduction in quality. I've been in MLTRs with extremely intelligent, beautiful women that lasted many years. If anything, I have noticed a reduction in age. Not surprisingly, women over age 33 are going to be a little more pissy about this. However I've dated many of those in long-lasting MLTRs and FBs also. My general experience is that women under 33 agree to things faster but might whine about them more down the road, and women over 33 agree to them slower and with more resistance but then don't complain about it once things are settled. That's a broad generalization and there are exceptions to both rules of course.
Dawson Stone 2014-06-23 11:10:26
I NEVER volunteer anything about our status. I usually first date close but if I want to keep a women in rotation after that the higher quality/more in demand women will ask by the 2nd or 3rd time we hang out/hook up if we are monogamous. I have tried being honest, being evasive, and being dishonest. Evasive works some times but not forever. No matter how I try to position it, when I am honest about not being monogamous, a decent percentage of women will appreciate my being honest but won't stay in rotation. A few will boomerang back in the future buy my quality does suffer a bit.
Blackdragon 2014-06-23 13:52:12
Evasive works some times but not forever. No matter how I try to position it, when I am honest about not being monogamous, a decent percentage of women will appreciate my being honest but won’t stay in rotation. A few will boomerang back in the future buy my quality does suffer a bit.Exactly correct. Evasive works, but only for about 3-6 months, then you must verbalize. However if you've done everything else correctly during those 3-6 months, your odds of success of them staying is very high when you verbalize. I think my success rate at that point is around 70% last time I checked. My open relationships ebook is all about this.
Greg 2014-06-23 14:29:39
I feel you are way too nice, have you tried being more of a jerk, or is this congruent to who you are and you didn't bother?
jack 2014-06-23 15:18:05
Dawson, You're doing sugar-daddy-end-around game. You're conning girls that want a sponsor. I think that affects the dynamic of your relationships. That being said, imo all but the most poly of men will NEVER have success with this setup. If you have ANY romantic elements to your soul, you won't be congruent in even attempting this. This is applicable to less than 3% of the male population. You have to be emotionally stunted to only want to see a woman once per week when you're intimate with her. Normal human males are not wired that way, especially when their over 27 or so. BD, Torero, Krauser, etc, these are not models for normal men. BD's flaw is that he thinks this is a reasonable mating strategy for the mass of mankind. Its not. Humans are not Bonobos.
Blackdragon 2014-06-23 15:31:47
I have said repeatedly that most people will end up choosing monogamy...just that monogamy doesn't last forever, since humans are not long-term monogamous creatures. Jack, I'm getting a little tired of your complain-then-run-away comments, especially since you keep repeating blatantly incorrect statements that I and others have addressed a very long time ago. If all you have to contribute is that monogamy is wonderful and no other system will work, thank you very much, you've made your point (such as it is), and I invite you to bother some other manosphere guy and leave us alone. Thanks. This is my last warning.
Blackdragon 2014-06-23 15:35:37
I feel you are way too nice, have you tried being more of a jerk, or is this congruent to who you are and you didn’t bother?This goes back to player game vs provider game. Years ago I did indeed try "jerk", and I got laid, but no women stuck around. Jerk is player, and player is great for getting laid and one night stands. Player is very bad if you're wanting long-term relationships measured in years. As I talked about in that above link, the ideal combination for getting laid fast *and* keeping women around in long nonmonogamous relationships is 85/15 player/provider. Being a jerk is more like 100% player.
Dennis 2014-06-23 16:03:18
It's as Mark Twain says "everybody Lies" There are direct lies and lies by omission. What you are doing BD is lying by omission. When some one asks you a question and you re-direct the conversation elsewhere that is lying by omission. I see no difference between direct lies and lies by omisssion. I personally have no problem with lying. I know the relationship is short term so it simply doesn't matter. What matters is whether I get laid fast. even if the relationship is longer term, say 1-3 years, I've found that if I was caught in my lie, after a little drama, it doesn't matter and the relationship goes on. An example of the lying dilemma is in the movie Don Jon. Scarlet asks Don Jon to stop looking at porn. If he says no like BD says he should, he probably wouldn't get fucked. So he lied and got fucked. She finds out he lies and leaves him. So what he goes and fucks someone else. But he wouldn't have had sex with her if he was straight up with her. If you have an abundance attitude and realize that relationships don't last then do what you want. immoral? definitely yes. But life is random and unfair so what?
Blackdragon 2014-06-23 16:32:52
When some one asks you a question and you re-direct the conversation elsewhere that is lying by omission.(That's an old argument that's been discussed on the forums to death.) If you believe that, then you must by extension believe that women are stupid. If a woman asks you if you're still fucking other women, and you snort and change the subject, all while having a strong nonmonogamous EFA, do you honestly think the woman thinks you're not fucking other women? Does she really think the answer is "no" if you do that? Women are smart. They know damn well what that means. Massively field-tested.
Dawson Stone 2014-06-23 18:36:25
Jack, it amazes me that people assume to know someone they clearly do not know. I never do this. I don't know you from a hole in the wall and while I could certainly conjecture things about you from what you write, I won't be so arrogant to do so. So even though I highly doubt you will even read my response with an open mind, I will attempt to correct your incorrect conclusions. Three of the women I see I have been seeing for 2 years or more. Two I see 1-2 times a month, the other when she travels into town…perhaps 4-6 times a year. I care about these women. They care about me. I have helped all of them with their careers (I helped one double her salary and another start a new business). I am not conning anyone. Many of the women on SugarDaddy sites are also on sites like Match and eHarmony. Probably about a 1/3 from my analysis. These women want to date a successful guy. Duh. Who wouldn't. If you are offer to pay all their bills I am sure most would accept. I treat women with respect. I treat them well. I am generous when I want to be generous. I never offer something and then don't follow through. And I won't debate how RIDICULOUS it is for you to profess to know that anyone has a soul (romantic or otherwise) but I can assure you my "setup" as you call it does not in any way hinder my ability to be romantic. Every women I date would tell you that that is why they keep seeing me…I create an experience (romantic) that they enjoy. Part ambiance, part sexual, part intellectual. Many of my dates have us watching a TedTalk together after screwing each other's brains out. And the issue you don't seem to want to recognize is we are WAY more like Bonobos then you think. In fact you are way closer in DNA to a male bonobo than a female human. We are animals at our core. It is why we are programmed to be attracted to facial symmetry, waist to hip ratio, signs of youth and signs of ovulation and we don't even realize it. You can throw statistics around all you like but it in no way supports an argument based on nothing but your unfounded opinions. If you want to have a reasonable debate based on logic, facts, data, etc. then I am happy to. But if all you are gonna do is whine about how it won't work but for all the most vacant of men then tell someone who cares. I have tried your way and it sucked. Try mine and then tell me your opinion. Dawson
Dawson Stone 2014-06-23 18:44:02
I couldn't agree more with BD on the jerk vs. nice guy approach. To have the best results one has to be viewed as an Alpha, take no bullshit type of guy while also being a decent, kind, caring person. It really isn't that hard to be both. I had a girl visiting me from out of town and it was the 4th time I have seen her. Beautiful. 21. Sweet. Fun. She has a girlfriend that wanted her to buy her a t-shirt from my city. I insisted on getting them both matching ones. $20. She is having problems making ends meet so I helped her setup a spreadsheet to track her budget (she had never had one before) and her expenses. Today she wrote me the sweetest note about how I made her feel special and cared about. When you can help someone or do something nice do it. They won't see you as weak but like and respect you more. With that said, the MOMENT I get attitude from a woman I very nicely but firmly tell them it is unacceptable. They know when you mean it and when you don't. As Patrick Swayze in Road House said…"Be nice, until it is time to not be nice."
FudgeMan 2014-06-23 19:07:32
This Jack dude really cracks me up. "BD’s flaw is that he thinks this is a reasonable mating strategy for the mass of mankind." Nah dude, he dons't think it's a reasonable mating strategy for the mass of mankind. He thinks its an optimal strategy for winners. Of course all the scrubs and losers won't be able to make a plan like this work ( Duhhh! ). Most people can't even bring themselves to learn how to make money or take care of themselves, let alone optimize their love life. Krauser, Tom.T, BD, and all the other "alpha 2.0" type dudes are in the top 1%. They see the game for what it is and are bending the rules to suit them. If you want to be an average joe, work a slave job, have sex with the same average women for 50 years ( if you make it that far ) and have a generally mediocre life... then these are NOT the blogs for you. Take the blue pill and go back to sleep.
nihilist 2014-06-23 19:56:21
FudgeMan, you need to learn what determinism is before you make comments like that, because you sound very unintelligent. The quote you provided is a reflection of determinism, and yet you replied without having an idea as to how people become who they become, which an understanding of determinism can teach you.
nihilist 2014-06-23 20:01:02
dawson stone, I provided my email address below our previous discussion. looking forward to continuing the discussion
Dawson Stone 2014-06-23 20:58:29
@Nihilist It must have been filtered out. I am at dawsonstone AT h0tmai1 D
DonP 2014-06-24 08:37:48
BD, You seem to be very particular about not having the "talk" with your women until it's at least 3 months into the relationship... But why? I've read several posts relating to this topic but in none did you state your reason(s) for not having the "talk" until 3 months or more have elapsed. I would be very much interested in knowing why you advise this.
Blackdragon 2014-06-24 11:13:13
BD, You seem to be very particular about not having the “talk” with your women until it’s at least 3 months into the relationship… But why? I’ve read several posts relating to this topic but in none did you state your reason(s) for not having the “talk” until 3 months or more have elapsed. I would be very much interested in knowing why you advise this.If you want a detailed explanation you'll have to buy the ebook, but the summary is that throwing this stuff at a woman prior to 3 months is too much for most women unless they have prior poly experience. Doing it this soon is a direct assault on her ASD and Societal Programming. It won't work. The reason for the 3 month time frame is that in my experience 3-5 months is about when a woman starts demanding answers and avoiding the conversation no longer works. (This assumes that your nonmonogamous EFA is strong. If your EFA is off, a woman will demand answers much sooner than 3 months, which is very bad. That simply means your EFA was too boyfriendish.)
FudgeMan 2014-06-24 11:28:47
@nihilist I don't follow what you're getting at. I looked up the definition of determinism. As far as I can tell, the lay-mans definition of it is "everything I do and become has been predetermined. an invisible hand is controlling me and nothing I accomplish is due to my own free will or choice". I'm guessing this isn't the correct definition. Care you enlighten me about what it is your trying to get across? I can't see how any of this determinism stuff has anything to do with pickup or the optimal way to bang hot women.
Blackdragon 2014-06-24 13:30:20
I can’t see how any of this determinism stuff has anything to do with pickup or the optimal way to bang hot women.It doesn't. I think his point is that trying to have sex with hot women or have relationship with them is a waste of time because we have no free will and nothing means anything so why bother. Or something.
Greg 2014-06-25 04:19:46
@ Dawson Stone "To have the best results one has to be viewed as an Alpha, take no bullshit type of guy while also being a decent, kind, caring person. It really isn’t that hard to be both." I expect both you and Blackdragon to be biased towards being nice, much as I am biased towards the opposite. Which is why I am asking if you have tried the other way and found it lacking, or you are using "common sense". @ Blackdragon Your "player game vs provider game" seems to be aimed at the relationship before you achieve lock-on. I'm interested in the relationship afterwards. I view her bringing up a subject like where is this relationship going, or what am I to you, as an opportunity to present her all the ways she can better herself in my eyes. Give her goals to strive for, instead of crushing her hopes.
Dawson Stone 2014-06-25 07:02:51
To a degree I have definitely been less nice and IMHO it isn't even closed which works better. First and foremost, for me, I have to feel good about myself. Yes, I want what I want, but there are things I am not willing to do to get them. In fact, it is why I struggle with not taking the 100% honest approach (by honest I mean honest about monogamy…I am honest about everything else) that BD does. But I am moving in that direction. Years ago I was at like 40% honest. Then 60%. Now I'm closer to 70%…just in the past few week or so. Can I get to 100%? I am not sure. I have found this has lowered quality in the past but I am experimenting with a few techniques that seem to be working. But more importantly than feeling better about being nice vs. jerk, is that I get significantly better results. When a woman REALLY likes you (because you are good to her) and is also really attracted to you she will literally move heaven and earth to give you as much pleasure as possible. All the women I see tell me when they are on their period because I don't see women when they are on their period. Most of them tell me in advance how many times they are going to make me come before they see me and work VERY hard to meet that goal. While I have met some truly damaged women that will be totally devoted even when you treat them like crap, they also usually come with quite a bit of drama and have much less going for them. Plus they turnover much faster. The higher quality women won't accept (at all or for very long) being treated badly. So in my experience if you want really fun, devoted, young, attractive, intelligent women you will get way more with sugar then salt. Just don't be beta about it and all will be fine in the world. Dawson
DonP 2014-06-25 08:11:43
If you want a detailed explanation you’ll have to buy the ebook, but the summary is that throwing this stuff at a woman prior to 3 months is too much for most women unless they have prior poly experience. Doing it this soon is a direct assault on her ASD and Societal Programming. "It won’t work. The reason for the 3 month time frame is that in my experience 3-5 months is about when a woman starts demanding answers and avoiding the conversation no longer works. (This assumes that your nonmonogamous EFA is strong. If your EFA is off, a woman will demand answers much sooner than 3 months, which is very bad. That simply means your EFA was too boyfriendish.)" I see... Doing some thinking of my own, I realize that another possible reason for not having the "talk" until a time like this has elapsed is that by doing so anytime sooner, you wouldn't have had the time to impress her with your personality and lifestyle. She wouldn't have had the time to fully experience the fun/adventure/excitement that being with you as an Alpha Male 2.0 is. So you come across as disrespectful/rude or being a "jerk" as far as she's concerned and the decision of leaving is easy to make. By waiting at least 3 months or more as BD recommends, you would have being able to make enough impression on her and let her know what you are all about. THEN, when she finally hears from you that you are not and don't intend to be monogamous with her, the decision of she leaving will be far more difficult for her to make as she reflects upon the time she's spent with you, the fun you've brought into her life and compares the value of being with you as against leaving (not that it matters to you if she does either as you can easily invite other women into your life) but I'm talking from her point of view.
FudgeMan 2014-06-25 08:27:30
This whole subject boils down to anticipation and the excitement of the unknown. Other's would simply call it maintaining your attainability level. Bad boys and hardcore players usually verbalize or very blatantly telegraph the girl is no more than a FB or ho from the very beginning. Pussy betas usually verbalize or blatantly telegraph they will be around no matter what and want to be with the girl forever ( even through bad behavior and bullshit ). The style BD uses assuages his conscience while keeping a glimmer of hope in the girls mind. Since he doesn't state outright the course of the relationship, and doesn't rub other bangs in the girls face everything is still a bit of a mystery. This normally works to turn a girl on more ( if she already likes you ). You still appear to be "attainable". She doesn't know for sure if she is a FB, MLTR, OLTR Candidate, or just a nasty hoe your using for kicks. Since the vast majority of girls don't want to just be fucked like a sex toy and put out.. this glimmer of hope is keeping them in the game and keeps them investing. The investing part is key. When you finally do tell them what is up, the goal is to have their investment level high enough that they don't auto bail when they find out they aren't in the category they hoped for. Women are very bad at realizing sunk costs and will keep slugging through trying to re-coop loses. Well when a woman knows for sure she will never get past being fucked in the mouth and sent home ( ultra bad boy mode ) she normally will be around for a very very short period. If you're a super amazing looking guy or have some other way above average status... that might keep her fighting for a tiny bit but most guys do not have this level of sexual market value. At most, the vast majority of guys reading these blogs or forums are one point ahead of the girl ( most of the time they are below the girl but solid game and putting in the numbers gives the illusion they are above ). In order to blatently point out "bad boy" stuff like "your a ho and I'm fucking 5 other women" you have to be at least two points ahead of her in SMV. Same with being a pussy and verbalizing bf/gf stuff early on. A lot of crazy shit you see guys get away with is because they are two points or more ahead in SMV. A male 9 with a female 6 can pull off crazy shit. Both "beta" and "alpha". Since we "gamers" are male 6's trying to fuck 8s and 9s... this isn't an option on our part. Women love anticipation and excitement more than men. To create an analogy to think about, imagine watching a TV show that you are really interested in. Your about three episodes in, and thinking "Dam this show is actually pretty sweet". The main reason a show appeals to someone is that it causes them to want to find out what happens next. It's why they always end on a cliffhanger. Now if somebody came out and said "So and so dies, and X town explodes.. then it ends"... you probably wouldn't really want to keep watching. And if you did, it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining. This is why you don't give concrete answers or verbalize where things are going until you have built a massive amount of investment on her part. This usually takes 6 months as BD says. By then they have invested a good bit depending on how you "verbalize" things can go well. This goes both ways too. If you are a typical beta guy who falls into some hot babes pussy and then 2 weeks later try to have the BF/GF talk ( or telegraph the talk through actions )... you are spoiling the TV show. She now knows for sure how the show ends and most likely won't want to keep watching unless the show is just out of this world amazing. I've kind of touched on a assortment of topics here and it's a bit jumbled. Hope it makes sense to at least somebody and goes to fill in some gaps people always wonder about.
Dawson Stone 2014-06-25 08:45:56
While I agree with much of what FudgeMan says, I have two significant points of departure that keep a girl around even when she knows she isn't the only one. The main part I agree with is there HAS to be a transaction of some type in all relationships. It can be status (FudgeMan' example of a 9 guy with a 6 chick) or money (SugarDaddy). But there are two other ways. 1) Experience/mentorship 2) Sex. 1) Experience/Mentorship. In addition to treating a woman well (all things you would do anyway…dinner, occasional trip, etc.) also be her mentor. Help her get a better job. Do her resume. Learn how to network. Give her the right books to read. And create a wonderful experience for them. I keep my average CPO around $30 and I am able to create a great experience for the women I see while controlling my costs. Younger is WAY better in this regard as well because they are impressed by less. A 30 year old wants a $3,000 handbag and $2,000 shoes. A 19 yo is thrilled by a surprise $50 dress from BeBe or matching sexy bra and panties from Victoria's Secret. 2) Sex. Be the best damn sex she has ever had. As a rule I always ask any woman I am going to meet how many is the most orgasms she has ever had in a single sex session…and then I do my level best to beat that number. As a part of being dominant, I make them ask permission for every orgasm they have and thank me after every orgasm. This cements in their minds how many times I have made them cum. If they never came more than 3x before and I made them cum 5x then without me having to say a word they are thinking I was their best. There are a ton of things that go into being an amazing lover but if you can crack that nut then your transaction is the best possible…pleasure for pleasure. ALL of my FBs are in that category. I had one girl I really liked but that could not have an orgasm. She didn't stick around. Dawson
Greg 2014-06-26 04:03:36
Dawson, I find that to be a ridiculous amount of work, I would rather lie about her being the only one than have to work that much for her (if that's an option). Or work instead at generating more women in my life, so the ones that stick around are efficient in terms of the work I do to keep them.
Dawson Stone 2014-06-26 06:39:22
@greg Which part? Being great in bed or the mentorship stuff? I assume you mean the mentorship stuff. The mentorship stuff really takes very little time. 15 mins here and there. Much of it is just the conversation in between sex sessions anyway. And these apply to ALL the women in my rotation…not just the ones that I am not being straight with. Besides, I like the women that I see on a regular basis or I wouldn't keep seeing them and it feels good to help someone you like and care about. But to each his own I suppose. Dawson
Juan 2014-06-26 08:53:05
"Stayed nonmonogamous but acted like a boyfriend with her. (Fancy dates, buying gifts, texting her all the time, introducing her to your family, etc.) " Yes, but if you want to have a MLTR or OLTR, you have to act like a boyfriend, haven´t you?
Blackdragon 2014-06-26 09:19:43
Yes, but if you want to have a MLTR or OLTR, you have to act like a boyfriend, haven´t you?Nope. I don't act like a BF to my MLTRs and they last years and years. I'm kind and I'm loving, but I don't take them out on fancy dates, don't talk about the relationship, rarely ever text them, don't care if they flirt/fuck other men, etc.
Greg 2014-06-26 10:27:33
@Dawson Stone I actually meant making them cum every time, more than once. The mentorship stuff is probably your area of expertise, so you may actually enjoy helping her. 30$ per orgasm is also ridiculous, to me. I could for example massage them, but I don't find the activity particularly enjoyable. If they complain about back pains I may bother, but I certainly don't like having to. There are many ways one could work for them, how do you draw the line?
Juan 2014-06-26 11:12:16
@Blackdragon Ok, I think I´ve just misunderstood a key part of the nonmonogamous relationships. I thought, if you upgrade a girl to a MLTR or OLTR you can take them to traditional dates, be romantic, invite them etc. Very likely one would than get what one get in a monogamous relationship: drama etc. Anyway, I also rarely text a FB of me, actually I try to text her just one time a week, if I invite her to me. BUT she text me almost every day!!! Than of course I answer.....is it acceptable? Or too nice guy....
Blackdragon 2014-06-26 11:18:01
Ok, I think I´ve just misunderstood a key part of the nonmonogamous relationships. I thought, if you upgrade a girl to a MLTR or OLTR you can take them to traditional dates, be romantic, invite them etc.OLTR, yes. MLTR only once a week and not too boyfriendish. OLTR is your "girlfriend", so that's fine. MLTR is a woman you're dating, not a girlfriend. There's a BIG difference.
Anyway, I also rarely text a FB of me, actually I try to text her just one time a week, if I invite her to me. BUT she text me almost every day!!! Than of course I answer…..is it acceptable? Or too nice guy….Answering contact is fine. Initiating it all the time is not.
Dawson Stone 2014-06-26 21:31:32
@Greg $30 CPO is ridiculously high or low? That's 1 1/2 lap dances at a strip club where you don't get to touch them let alone fuck them. My average chick is probably 20 years old and I never hook up with anyone below a 7. I average 8-8 1/2. I have great sex with a beautiful 20 year old for $30…seems like am amazing value to me. Two glasses of wine at a restaurant are $25 with tip for god's sake. I never massage a girl. She massages me. The line I draw is quite simple. If I enjoy it I do it (mentoring them, being a great lover to them). If I don't (giving a massage is tedious) then I don't. Not complicated. Do you really not enjoy giving a beautiful woman pleasure? What's a bigger turn on then when you see your girl she can't wait to rip your clothes off to experience what you did to her last time? At least for me it is NOT work at all. Nothing is more fun and exciting. Dawson
Greg 2014-06-27 12:29:46
@ Dawson Stone 30$ per orgasm is ridiculously high, to me. The other options you listed are even more ridiculous, to me. But my financial situation is very different from yours. The massage example is a great one. Yes, I find it very tedious having to work a woman until she cums, I do it only for the benefits. I would have to be desperate to offer so much for pussy, but if you have fun giving it's a great situation to be in, like those people who love their job. Now I think I understand your (and Blackdragon's) perspective much better. Lying about being monogamous is a much better deal to me (if it counts that much for them, which has not been my experience).
Dawson Stone 2014-06-27 12:31:58
@Greg I am amazed that you think buying a girl a glass of wine is an outrageous expense for her to sleep with you but I guess to each his own. I am curious…what is your average CPO and what is the age and attractiveness of your average girl? Dawson
Greg 2014-06-27 12:39:33
I know this is besides the point, but every time kids are mentioned, this question pops into my mind: Do men actually want children or are they just being coaxed into it by society and their loved one? It seems like such a crappy choice for a man, considering how much time and money it takes out of your life. I feel blessed not having any need for kids, at all.
Blackdragon 2014-06-27 13:55:26
I know this is besides the point, but every time kids are mentioned, this question pops into my mind: Do men actually want children or are they just being coaxed into it by society and their loved one? It seems like such a crappy choice for a man, considering how much time and money it takes out of your life.Most men want kids, even extreme Alphas. There are guys all over the manosphere who badly want kids "someday". So the short answer is no, most men are not being coaxed into it...they want them. There are indeed some men who never want kids who are eventually pressured into it by their Special Girl™ who is Not Like The Rest™, but these are exceptions to the rule.
Greg 2014-06-27 15:23:51
@ Blackdragon Thank you for the answer, I meant to write in the Motherhood post. This kids desire is so foreign to me, I hope to see a post about the reasons people have kids from a rational person like yourself. @ Dawson Stone Cost per orgasm? If this includes women I have had sex with it's negative, as I usually pressure them into buying me stuff and doing things for me. If it is only about new women, I pay my bill if there's no way to take her for a walk (usually during the winter). And I get something cheap. Now for results, the average attractiveness of the women I have sex with is about a 6, (mediocre/decent). I have had 7s (cute/pretty), but never 8s (beautiful) or above. And age... I guess the average is 22.
Dawson Stone 2014-06-27 16:27:07
@Greg That makes sense. Your transaction with them is value. You are higher value and trade down to their lower value in exchange for reduction in CPO. As I said in my earlier post…there are four ways to transact: 1) value 2) money 3) lifestyle/mentorship 4) pleasure To each his own and happy hunting.
Dawson Stone 2014-06-28 03:19:51
@BD I disagree that it is the exception to the rule that women pressure men into having kids unless you exclude A) women that get pregnant on purpose to trap a guy and B) married women that pressure their husbands into having more kids. I have two friends I can think of who got married with the expressed agreement with Special Girl™ who is Not Like The Rest™ that they did not want children (one was adopted and the other is a nihilist) and shocking (not really) that both of their wives accidentally got pregnant. Interestingly both guys have embraced being Dads and are quite good ones by my estimation which I am sure makes their wives convinced that they "did the right thing" by getting pregnant and will likely do it again if they are able to. Only mildly related, add to that the interesting tidbit that in the US between 5-10% of men are raising kids they believe to be biologically their's but that in fact are not. @Greg I can say with certainty that 100% of the reason that I had a child (and I am embarrassed to admit) is pure and simple societal programming. I remember the day so clearly. I was out of town for business (my business was where much of my extended family lives) and I went to a religious family get together. I had a 2nd cousin that was 5 and just an exceptionally bright and precocious girl. I ignored the rest of the family that night and the two of us talked for hours. I was mesmerized by this child. Add to that that I was 33 and literally all of my friends had or were having kids. I thought "what's wrong with me?" This was just the nudge I needed. I came home from my trip and announced "Honey, I think we should have a baby." This is about as retarded of a reason as I can imagine to bring a human being into the world (one enjoyable night babysitting basically) and sign up for a lifetime of being someone's guide in life but that is exactly what happened. For many married adults they have children because "it is time" and "everyone else is." The same is true for marriage. A huge percentage of people get married because "it is time they settle down" and because all their friends are getting married. Societal inertia is much more powerful of a force than people realize. NOT because they met the Special Girl™ who is Not Like The Rest™ With all of that said, the single most rewarding experience of my life is being a Dad to my daughter. The interesting aspect is that in my sincere and focused efforts to be a good life coach for her I have learned more about life and how to be happy from that process of teaching her to be happy. Having the EARNED respect and admiration of your child that has EARNED your respect and admiration is a feeling like no other and one that you can only understand experientially. To Summarize The Reasons Men Have Kids: 1) They are trapped 2) They are coerced 3) They have a biological drive to pass on their DNA (not as strong as a woman's) 4) Societal inertia
thenihilriver 2014-06-28 06:20:47
"So the short answer is no, most men are not being coaxed into it…they want them." Of course they're being coaxed into it from something, that something being ego that is built by society and DNA.
thenihilriver 2014-06-28 06:21:54
FudgeMan, Determinism can be understood, on an individual level, this way: a human being is a biological machine that is governed by 1) DNA 2) life experience. Starting at birth (or conception, however you want to look at it), everything we do (our actions, which are actually RE-actions) is simply a reflex to external stimuli, and that reaction is dictated by 1) DNA and 2) experience. Unlike fatalism, which is what you basically described, events were not determined beforehand, i.e. there was no script that was written. The difference: the fatalist would say I'm going to die tomorrow because it is predetermined; the determinist would say I could die tomorrow if the circumstances align in such a way, but these circumstances will have to play out to see exactly what happens. If you haven't picked up on it already, ultimately no one or nothing is to blame for ANYTHING in this world, and this is the reason I commented on your post, which is full of ego: you talk about "winners" as if each of us chooses to be what we are, when all a person is is a reactionary biological machine. But what about consciousness you might say? Consciousness is a mere observer of our actions and does not influence them; the actions, rather, are dictated by our subconscious, which is run by the DNA and life experience (here's a video: . How does this apply to pickup? Well, for starters, people are not weak or losers or winners or any of that stuff in the normal sense of the definitions, because we're not responsible for any of it; we're pieces that have been cast out as part of evolution, each one capable of different things but not necessarily the same things, or the same types of things. I used to teach at a school, and it was extremely frustrating to try to understand why certain children just could not grasp certain concepts. Well, that's the determinism, just as you, up to this point, and this point only, haven't been able to comprehend determinism (or maybe you haven't really thought about it much until I made the comment). And through determinism, by way of this explanation, I'm hoping your biological mechanisms are able to grasp the concept. Does this make sense?
thenihilriver 2014-06-28 06:23:10
Blackdragon, is there a word limit to posts? I've posted a response to FudgeMan asking about determinism twice now and it won't go through.
Blackdragon 2014-06-28 10:53:13
Blackdragon, is there a word limit to posts? I’ve posted a response to FudgeMan asking about determinism twice now and it won’t go through.No. Read the first paragraph on the 5 Simple Rules page.
Blackdragon 2014-06-28 11:09:20
Of course they’re being coaxed into it from something, that something being ego that is built by society and DNA.That's not what he was asking about. He was asking about being coaxed by the woman in the relationship.
Greg 2014-06-28 11:57:06
@ Dawson Stone That pretty much how I figured most men make that life changing decision. After making that decision it led to the most rewarding experience of your life, and I see many men ranking their children very high among their priorities. Do you think if you chose not to have kids, your life would have been worse? I vaguely remember Blackdragon saying he would have been happier without kids...
Dawson Stone 2014-06-28 12:17:06
@thenihilriver OUTSTANDING post! @Greg I think I would be less happy. As I stated in my post teaching her how to be happy has taught me how to be happy. I must add the caveat that my daughter is an insanely fantastic person. In 14 years we have had 3 disagreements. She is kind, respectful, appreciative…and has a fantastic moral compass. I have no doubt she is a better person than me. But I was lucky. She was born totally normal. No learning disabilities. No health issues. Etc. If I am being completely objective the logical decision would be even in hindsight to NOT have kids because you never know what you are going to get. Yea nurture plays a big role but so does sperm and egg and there is no controlling that. If I somehow (clearly impossible) I would get my daughter then I would do it again. Dawson
Elkay Mann 2015-10-20 10:27:32
@Dennis: Lying implies conditioning someone else view in order to make them believe something you know isn't true or you can't actually do. Her: "I want to be with you forever!" You: "I'll never ever leave you" / "I will love you forever" Those are blatant lies. You: <sincerely smile and hold her close> / "Hahaha that's a LOT of time!" Is *not* lying. "I personally have no problem with lying." Nope but real men do, cause this attitude ruins everyone's relationships by pushing women into thinking Societal Programming is real. @BD: "do you honestly think the woman thinks you’re not fucking other women? Does she really think the answer is “no” if you do that?" The way I see it, she already thinks you do if she asks, anyway. It doesn't matter what you say, she doesn't want an answer cause she's not asking a question: She's just shit testing you to see your *reaction*.
Blackdragon 2015-10-20 18:32:04
The way I see it, she already thinks you do if she asks, anyway. It doesn’t matter what you say, she doesn’t want an answer cause she’s not asking a question: She’s just shit testing you to see your *reaction*.EXACTLY.
elijah 2016-08-31 05:01:17
"Am I your girlfriend?" I just received this text from a girl I've been seeing once a week for about 6 weeks now. We have never spent any time outside my apartment together (except the first date, which also ended in my apartment!) I initiate contact with her once a week to establish seeing her again. However, she texts me in one way or another every day. She sends "heart eye" emojis all the time, which I never respond to at all. Otherwise, I take my time answering and respond to perhaps 70%. She was a virgin 6 months ago at age 22 (i'm guy #2) and is from a very conservative culture so I think this question is coming from naivete rather than bad EFA on my part... How would you reply to this text? I was considering something like "of course we're friends, I wouldn't have sex with a girl I don't like!" or "Oh I know, some cute guy is asking you out, right? ; ) " Or maybe I shouldn't be responding to this kind of thing by text at all? How would you respond?
Blackdragon 2016-08-31 11:18:20
Just don't reply. If she asks that kind of thing in person, look at her strangely and tell her it's way too soon for that conversation. And please refrain from asking "There's this one girl....what do I do?" questions. I hate those.
elijah 2016-08-31 17:07:42
Duly noted! If you can consider this from a general troubleshooting of a first attempt at creating an open relationship situation, and let me know how to steer this ship back on course, I'd really appreciate it. I do have two other girls going, for what it's worth, but this one is the oldest one at around 2 months. She's an FB in my mind, so these questions are not good. This morning I got another two messages, "I want to be your girlfriend" and "can I?" Should I consider a short next in the form of radio silence for a few days? I figured it was basically the same general question as the "what am I to you" or "what is this to you" questions above, with the difference being that it is over a text message, so I wasn't sure how that would affect the response. I included details to give some sense of my EFA. Maybe I do have an EFA issue somewhere, though we've literally done nothing but screw and watch a little TV since we've known each other. Not over two hours' conversation probably. If I send her a text it's sexual. Not cuddling after sex. I don't have enough experience to know how rare this situation might be, but it seems like it would be generally useful to a lot of guys who are new to doing this, since if this behavior means I'm screwing up... well, I imagine most guys screw up a bit in their first tries too. Hope you agree. If not, feel free to delete the comment, I don't mean to specifically ignore your complaint about "one girl" questions. Anyway it'll probably be a 3 girl question soon enough if I can't figure out where I went wrong or how to handle things as they are now : p
tom 2016-09-04 03:37:14
I just did this for the first time, and I've got a couple of questions. First of all, I was totally prepared. I could feel it in my bones that today was going to be the day she asked me this, and I rehearsed and everything just like you recommend. I gave the "14 girlfriends" response you suggest in your ebook, when she asked me the "are you still having sex" question, then I immediately changed the subject. Without skipping a beat, she replied to the new topic, then instantly retorted with "you didn't answer my question, you just avoided it." In the end I just had to put my foot down with a "We just talked about that, I'm not talking about it anymore" and left the room to go make myself busy. Now she's sent me a text message later tonight again repeating " you never answered my question". Do you ever get called out like this? Does this call for a next?
Blackdragon 2016-09-04 13:57:37
Does this call for a next?Yes. She's asked you several times and you said you didn't want to talk about it. If she keeps doing it, soft next.
Do you ever get called out like this?It's extremely rare for this to happen to me if the woman is under the age of 33. If it happened to you, your frame and/or behavior with her may be off.
Jack Outside the Box 2016-09-04 15:07:01
She was a virgin 6 months ago at age 22 (i’m guy #2) and is from a very conservative cultureYou just answered your own question. There's nothing wrong with your frame. She's just an inexperienced girly girl who feels guilty about all the sex she's having with you and wants to become serious because of her own self inflicted slut shaming and her culture's prudery. I hate these types of women. Keep hanging out with the prude types and you will keep running into these kinds of problems, irrespective of your EFA. She has a scarcity mentality when it comes to men (as all conservative prudes do), so she's trying to lock you down. Dude, what the fuck are you doing? Trolling the mosques? Why? You do know that there are more open minded women out there, right?
elijah 2016-09-04 17:55:05
The entire country is conservative. The girl is not religious, nor is she a prude. In fact I have never in 20 years of getting laid seen a girl so open-minded so fast to doing things she's never done before in the bedroom (unless she was already well experienced and comfortable with her kinks). Anyway, from what I understand, the national average of virginity loss around here is twenty, and talking to the girls I have sex with, they all have at least one girlfriend in her mid-to-late twenties who is still a virgin. Most women sleep with about 2-3 guys tops before getting married. Divorce rate is almost nonexistent, perhaps because the father keeps everything, including the kids, irrespective of all but the severest circumstances. On the other hand, it is widely "accepted" (read: not talked about) that married men have mistresses. It's very practical. As long as the guy is paying the household bills, and he is discreet with his affairs, he won't get drama. Therefore, I think it should still be possible to develop a successful poly situation here... But then you also hear the typical "but kids THESE days are all sex-fiends" kind of rumours. Just doing my part to improve the national averages ; )
Jack Outside the Box 2016-09-04 22:35:45
What country do you live in?
elijah 2016-09-06 01:54:15
tom 2016-09-06 22:32:29
In your experience, how often does this question get asked before reaching the critical point where it becomes a true demand, and you need to have "the talk"? Do you literally just repeat the same answer to her each time or are there any adjustments you make as time goes on? You instruct that the talk should occur only on your timetable, but if you wait until she reaches the demand point, that sounds like her timetable...do you agree to set aside some time "next time" when she gets to this point or how do you handle that?
Blackdragon 2016-09-07 09:56:15
In your experience, how often does this question get asked before reaching the critical point where it becomes a true demand, and you need to have “the talk”?The average is 3-5 months if you're doing everything correctly (sometimes longer). It's much sooner if you're not.
Do you literally just repeat the same answer to her each time or are there any adjustments you make as time goes on?I give the same type of answer, but not the literal same word-for-word answer. (Though sometimes I do.)
You instruct that the talk should occur only on your timetable, but if you wait until she reaches the demand point, that sounds like her timetableTrue, but the demand point is indirectly set by you, based on everything else you're doing in the relationship (only seeing her once a week, always making her cum during sex, not having any relationship talks, etc, etc).
do you agree to set aside some time “next time” when she gets to this point or how do you handle that?If it's been longer than 3-5 months and it's obvious she really needs an answer, I have The Talk right then and there provided we are completely alone and she's in a reasonably good mood. Otherwise yes, I'll schedule a time later in the week. She needs to be a decent mood though, or else I'll reschedule again.
Elijah 2016-09-18 18:10:31
That was my first next, and it worked great! Wow. So I just had sex with a new girl the first time yesterday, and right after we finished, her first question was "when was the last time you had sex?" The true answer to that question was, "about an hour and a half ago".... I got that deer in the headlights FEELING (I THINK I kept if off my face lol) and said "oh I have sex every day that I can! haha(change subject)", in an attempt to kind of answer it the same way you suggest for the "are you still having sex" question. But she then says "so you mean you had sex yesterday?" (yes again, damn, I seriously need to stop this weekend cramming thing ) Anyway I know it's not a super-common scenario, especially to get that sort of question so quickly, but how would you answer?
Blackdragon 2016-09-19 11:51:52
CurtsNOKC 2017-01-03 12:26:19
@BD What about 80% of chics from online dating that plaster comments on their profiles like this: "I'm going to be frank, I've met nothing but wolves in sheep's skins from this and others. This is supposed to be a dating . So, if you want to sleep with a girl before you are ready to date JUST her, I AM NOT THE ONE FOR YOU. Nothing personal, but I am not looking for - When I find something I want I don't need to continue window shopping. Much harder said than done, especially when I'm NOT looking to hop in bed with someone right away - I take physical and emotional intimacy very seriously. Sorry, but you have to work for this!" Or they demand an answer to this question via text before meeting/dating. It's absurd that so many do this and I usually either tell them I don't discuss this topic until I know someone longer. But my other question is are these Hyper Strict Serial Mono chics like this even worth my time anymore? I am seriously considering just ignoring these ladies now that I have 2-4 I am seeing at any one time. In your opinion, would you mess with these type of women or filter them out in the beginning? Thanks!
Blackdragon 2017-01-03 13:16:07
What about 80% of chics from online dating that plaster comments on their profiles like this1. https://blackdragonblog.com/2015/05/04/ignore-what-women-say-only-watch-what-they-do/ 2. Don't read profiles. I don't. I've fucked tons of women who said that crap on their profiles. It's meaningless if they're under age 33.
Or they demand an answer to this question via text before meeting/datingIf they literally demand an answer then next them and move on. I've never had a woman under age 33 do this though.
Dan 2017-04-14 09:09:52
@BD I have been seeing this woman off and on for about 9 months. I recently started seeing her more regularly and haven't had sex with another woman in 7 weeks. I also have started screwing up rule number 4 listed above and have displayed some boyfriend behaviors. I like this girl, sex is great with her, but I still do not want to get serious with her or anyone else for that matter. Based on what I've just said, you would probably say that I have oneitis and that I'm in a de-facto monogamous relationship. This may be true and I need to break free of that shit. I am actually going out with a new woman tonight and I know that I'm going to get grilled by this current girl about what I'm doing tonight. My question to you is if you think this is time for me to soft next her or actually have the talk, which we never really have had? If she has ever brought up the relationship, I have done a really good job at just being sarcastic or playful with my responses or I will just divert the conversation to something else. Also with regards to "the talk", Do you have a post on this blog about that or is it only in your book? I really enjoyed reading your alpha male book 2.0. It has been eye opening for me with how practical your take is on how much society brain washes us with all of this Disney relationship bullshit. Thanks for any input you may have for my situation.
Anon. 2017-04-14 12:03:41
If BD answers, it will be only a link either to the article where he says he doesn't answer TT1G questions, or to the one where he says he doesn't reply to comments to old articles anymore : ) Soft next her if she gives you drama. Otherwise, don't. Have The Talk if she really insists on clarity in this regard. Otherwise, don't. Keep your frame. Do not allow her to grill you with questions about things in your life that aren't shared with her.
Ethan Anderson 2020-07-10 05:06:32
how do you drop hints you are seeing other women?