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10 Steps On How To Create The Ultimate Online Dating Photo
This is an online dating technique I have used several times, and it's worked very well every time I've tried it. The very first time I tested it out it doubled my response rate. It's something I've mentioned once before, but today I'm going explain it in detail.
-By Caleb Jones
I'll say right up front that this technique will cost you a little money. Not much, but some.
The UODP technique means you delete all the photos on your online dating profile and replace them with just one photo. That's right, just one. However, this one photo is the absolute best photo you can possibly have of yourself. This is why if you're good-looking, you don't need to do this; you'll want 2-4 photos on your profile, not just one.
Essentially, you go get your Ultimate Photo taken a certain way, then put it on your OKCupid profile, Tinder profile, or whatever, start messaging women, and enjoy your increased responses.
Here's exactly how to do it:
1. Pick out the best outfit you can possibly wear. It should be something congruent to your personality. If that means cool jeans and a nice button-down, that's fine. If that means a suit and tie, that's also fine. The outfit must:
- Fit your body perfectly.
- Include colors that work best with your hair color, eye color, and skin tone. It also should not have any colors that make you look bad or washed-out. Get some female opinions on this if you have no idea what colors look best (or worst) on you.
- Be crisp and clean.
- Be in current styles. No 80s or 90s styles, even if you like those styles.
In other words, you need to look as fantastic as you possibly can based on your physical appearance and body size/shape. If that means you need to go shopping for a new outfit, go do that. If that means you need to get an existing outfit tailored or fitted to fit you better, go do that. Get your ultimate outfit put together and fitted well.
2. Hire a professional or semi-professional photographer. My usual advice is to get some inexpensive photography student with a good camera from Craigslist or similar. Not for your UODP. For this, you need a "real" photographer. Moreover, you need this person to have access to an indoor studio or something similar. Your UODP must be an indoor photo.
3. Plan your facial hair for the photo. That means if you want a short goatee for your photo (for example), you'll need to plan this accordingly based on the date of your photo shoot with the photographer. It should go without saying that in most cases, you DO want facial hair in your UODP.
4. Be aware of the best angles for your face. Think back to the "MySpace angles" the fat girls used to employ back in the MySpace days. (I guess today you could call them "Instagram angles.") You need to know exactly which angle makes your face look the best. Usually, this means the camera is located well above your head with your head tilted slightly up, and your neck sticking slightly out (like E.T. used to do).
Experiment with mirrors or taking pics with your phone if you need to. Get a good picture of your "angle" so you can show the photographer.
5. Go get your photo shoot. Dress up in your perfect outfit with the perfect colors and your perfect facial hair. Get your hair style looking as awesome as possible. Think edgy and cool (though always remain congruent to who you are). Make sure you look as perfect as you can.
This is important. If you're not sure as to the best color that should be behind you, experiment with a few and find which makes you look best. If you really want to make this work, bring a woman with you and get her color opinions after the photographer takes a few test shots. Women see colors much better than men do. (This is one of the very rare times I will recommend you take advice from from women regarding anything dating-related.)
Again, make sure whatever is in the background looks normal. Make sure a bookshelf or some other normal object(s) are in the frame, even if blurry. It needs to look natural, not like it was taken in a professional studio.
Once you guys determine your ideal background color, show the photographer your best angle. If he/she needs to get up on a ladder to take the shots, have them do that.
7. Take hundreds of shots. That's right. Hundreds. I would go for at least 200. More is better. Use slightly different angles and facial expressions.
What's the best facial expression for your Ultimate Online Dating Photo? The answer is "neutral to slightly smiling". Use different expressions within that range, and have the photographer snap away.
8. Later, go through your hundreds of shots, and pick out the 15 or so best ones. then have two or three women (ideally within your target age range) help you pick out the absolute best one of the 15.
If you really want to go the extra mile, have two or three women in your target age range who don't know you help determine the best photo. Use friends of female friends to do this. Women in your target age range, who live in your area, who don't know you, and who have never seen you are the absolute best sources to ask for which online dating photos you should use.
Once you dteremine the best photo from your final 15, this will be your UODP. But you're not quite done yet.
9. Have someone good with Photoshop color correct the photo. Listen to what I'm saying here: I don't mean you should "Photoshop" your photo to make you look skinnier, or airbrush your skin, or anything like that. I'm saying someone who understands how to do this (and I do not) needs to color correct the photo, improving the lighting, contrast, and colors. It makes a huge difference. It makes the photo look more like something one would see if they saw in you real life, rather than a "photo".
10. Your photo is ready to upload to your profile. Ideally, you should delete your entire profile and re-make a new one from scratch with a different user name on your online dating site. Then use just your single UODP and don't use any other photos.
You could take an existing profile, delete all of your other photos and replace them with your UODP, but your results will be much better if you start from scratch, even if you use the same online dating profile text both times.
Why This Works
As I've been saying for years, women on online dating sites are looking to DISqualify, not qualify. They are looking for things they don't like, not things they do like. So if you have four photos on your profile and she loves the first three but doesn't like something about the fourth, BAM! You're gone, and she's onto the next guy's profile.
Having just one photo with the minimal number of flaws reduces the odds of her finding something she doesn't like. Hence, your response rates will go up. I will state again that my response rates noticeably improved every time I have personally done this, and other guys I've had try this have reported similar results.
What To Expect
If you do all of this right, your response rates should increase unless they were decent (as in 15% or more) to begin with.
The one possible humorous downside with this method is that this photo will look so damn good, some women might actually think it's fake, and may bypass you because they think you're some kind of scammer or spammer. However, in my experience the increased response rate of women who do respond to your openers is well worth this flaw.
If you're not super good-looking, give this a shot. You'll be very happy with the results.
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Nosferatu 2014-07-24 06:26:25
BD thanks for this post!!! This, and the last one, are topics i've been meaning to ask you about for some time…it's like you're reading my mind!! For BD blog followers: NB THIS POST IS NOT A CRITICISM OF B.D. OR HIS METHODS!!! I believe in this guy!!! I'm just painting a picture for other older, less attractive guys who may be in the same boat as me. I'm an older guy (age 53, look about 46), I'm short (5'7"), I'm white, bald and and not traditionally handsome (I don't look like Bruce Willis, I look like Paul Shaffer!) I have followed all of BD's advice on online dating - which all makes logical sense to me, read all his books, applied what he says, even got him to do an appraisal of my dating site profile - which improved it immensely!!! I have emailed over 500 chicks on OKC and have only got ONE date (with a chick who had only posted head shots - I found out why….) So what's the solution? Why is the system not working for me? It's GOTTA BE THE PHOTOS. As BD says, 80% of a woman's decision whether to respond your email opener or not is based upon your photos. I had been meaning to ask you, BD, how to get better photos (or to provide links to examples of such) but you beat me to the punch and answered my questions with this post! Thankyou!!! I'm gonna do all of the above, and report back on the results. Nosferatu 🙂 PS As musician, I have been getting a little pussy through Social circle and Cold Approach, but it's WAY harder and more time consuming - I wanna make Online my primary source of women.
Blackdragon 2014-07-24 09:49:06
You're 53; out of curiosity what are the ages of the women you're messaging? Are they all much younger?
Bo 2014-07-24 16:14:44
Women are indeed looking for any reason to disqualify you, which is why this method may not be optimal. Only one pic and they'll get suspicious "why aren't there more" will come up during the convo. Or they'll skip you and reply to the guy with more pics. I have three pics up, no more, and it's working well for me.
Dawson Stone 2014-07-24 20:06:27
Maybe I am missing something here. Let's say you get the picture to end all pictures and you look significantly better then you do in person. Let's say as a result you get way more women to contact you or accept your contact of them. You text. You talk on the phone. Whatever. Eventually you have to meet in person. Do you really want the first look you get when a woman meets you to be that of disappointment? First of all, when a woman only has one pic when I move to text I always ask for additional pics. Many women do the same. What are you going to do then? You have no other pics to send. You certainly can't ask them for additional pics if you aren't going to provide any of your own. This seems like it would simply add more women to the pipeline but will it really increase your CLOSE RATE (IMO the only thing that matters?) What are your stats on that? I use my pics (I have 10) to show that I live an exciting life. I want a woman to know EXACTLY what I look like so there will be no surprises (and I demand the same in return). I get that your advice is for the average or below average looking guy, but will this really improve the yield? If not, all you have done is wasted time with women that when they meet you will feel lied to and won't want to screw you anyway.
Cerberus 2014-07-24 20:25:11
Nosferatu, another thing to think about is the site you are using. It may be different in your city, but where I am it seems like each of the major dating sites attract very different crowds. In my city, OKC caters mainly to "alternative" types, and I had very little luck there since I don't give off that vibe. Match, on the other hand, was a gold mine for me. Make sure you know how different sites are perceived in your area, and play to your strengths.
Blackdragon 2014-07-24 20:39:03
Dawson, you're thinking in the theoretical and I'm talking about what I and others have actually experienced in real life. When I was 20-30 pounds fatter I always had pics that looked better than I did in real life, and I still got laid plenty, with very high first-date-to-lay ratios. I have not had a decrease in these ratios since using this technique, but have experienced an increase in both responses and dates. So yes, if you're an uglier/fatter/older guy, it does improve yield. I suggest you try it out before you judge it. A few other things you said that struck me as strange:
Do you really want the first look you get when a woman meets you to be that of disappointment?I have literally never noticed a "look of disappointment" from a woman on a first date, even when I was much chubbier, and my number of first dates is well into the triple digits. Maybe I'm not very observant, but I have literally never noticed such a thing. Again your fears are based on theory and not real life (at least not my life).
First of all, when a woman only has one pic when I move to text I always ask for additional pics.I don't do this. If a woman's single pic shows her entire body (or most of it), I don't ask for any more pics. I only open women age 27 or under these days, so if she's trim in her one pic, it's very safe to assume she is in real life, and my experience has shown this to be the case. (I suppose if you're opening over-33 women this might be more of an issue.) If a woman only has one pic on her profile and it does not show her whole body, I assume she's a fattie (because she probably is) and I don't open her to begin with. (Since messaging pics back and forth with such a woman would be a waste of my time.)
You certainly can’t ask them for additional pics if you aren’t going to provide any of your own.That's an odd attitude. Yes you can. By the way, I do have two decent pics of me in my phone that I've taken over the years that I keep just in case a woman asks me for "more pics". They're pics that I know will be viewed on a phone, so they don't have to be quite as spectacular as an Ultimate Photo. Regardless, it is very, very rare that I'm asked for more pics from a woman, since I don't ask for more pics myself and I don't open women over age 27.
Dawson Stone 2014-07-24 20:52:43
I always ask for more pics. There are a million ways to hide issues that would be deal killers. Bad teeth. Bad skin. Bra technology making someone look much better then they are. Hot girls have no issue sending more pics. Girls that are hiding something do. Being slender is not my only criteria. And if your and see their whole body you aren't getting a good close up of their face. 90% of the women I open are 18-23. And I too have had hundreds of first dates. I am not talking about fears at all. I am talking about maximizing yield and minimizing hassle. I cannot tell you how many times I have had women thank me for posting more pics and how it made them totally comfortable that I was "real" and "exactly who I said I was." My first date close rate is about 85%. I know you push for a two date close system but I find it is more efficient to close in one date and if I have screened and escalated via text properly this is fairly easy. And OF COURSE you can ask for additional pics if you want to but most likely she will ask you to return in kind and if you don't her guard will be up.
Russ 2014-07-25 00:59:05
I'm not going to post the photo on here (plus I don't think one can anyway), but as I'm not really that photogenic, I've done all of what's been said – used a professional photographer, wore a nice shirt and out of about 60 pics he took, found that there was only 1 liked and the rest I hated. So I only use that pic, but the pic hasn't got me great results, as many women don't like it. I think women get suspicious when they only see 1 pic, as they think it might be an African, Asian or East European scammer, so you need at least 10 pics that DHV you and show you're a cool person, whether it's a pic of you somewhere overseas and/or doing a cool activity. The main problem I had, is the photographer took his pics way too close up, plus some of it was my fault as well, as I didn't smile and when ever I try to in photos, it comes out badly, for some reason. I'll have to get more done, with someone else I've found, when they can spare the time. I work out regularly and very fit, so am not overweight.
Blackdragon 2014-07-25 11:16:09
There are a million ways to hide issues that would be deal killers. Bad teeth. Bad skin. Bra technology making someone look much better then they are.Interesting. Must be a regional thing. I haven't had these kinds of problems. At least not that I remember. (Or you're just extremely picky.)
I think women get suspicious when they only see 1 pic, as they think it might be an African, Asian or East European scammerI addressed that in the post. Yes, some women are going to think that, but in most cases you'll still experience a net increase. Assuming there's a net increase in results, why bother caring what the "no's" think? I certainly don't.
so you need at least 10 pics that DHV you and show you’re a cool person, whether it’s a pic of you somewhere overseas and/or doing a cool activityGood god, nooooooo. Unless you are extremely good-looking, 10 photos is way, way too many. A) It's a huge tryhard and B) you'll be supplying women with plenty of opportunities to find something they don't like. Unless you're a celebrity or a male ten, never have more than 2-4 pics on a profile.
Dawson Stone 2014-07-25 12:16:04
I assure you I am not even close to a male 10 or a celebrity and it works extremely well. I am nearly 50 and I am 25-30 years older than the women I approach (many approach me). Pics on your yacht…trying to hard. Pics next to your Bentley…trying to hard. Pics with hot chicks…trying to hard. Pics riding an elephant, bungee jumping, next to a live lion, etc. gets tons of comments and women asking me where the pics where from, etc. That's my experience.
Blackdragon 2014-07-25 14:46:01
Pics riding an elephant, bungee jumping, next to a live lion, etc. gets tons of comments and women asking me where the pics where from, etc.Completely agree. Just not 10 of them. If you're not going to do the above one-photo technique, make that photo is just one of 2-4.
Dawson Stone 2014-07-25 21:20:31
I lied. I have 9. One main pic with probably my best smile One on elephant One next to lion One in front of Burj Al Arab in Dubai One in BJJ gee pants, no shirt (I am very fit) One bungee jumping One in professional attire One in tux One in casual attire I have had 22 closes since March with 90% first date close rate over that time period and CPO around $30 including some out of town talent. Selling "lifestyle" works in my experience.
Blackdragon 2014-07-25 21:43:33
Very nice! How good looking would you say you are on a scale from one to ten?
Nosferatu 2014-07-26 04:20:02
Cerberus, thanks for pointing that out…I'm gonna try Match.com once I get my UODP organised. Can I ask you how old you are, and what age women you have succeeded with on Match? And how did you, or how would you recommend to, discover how any particular site is perceived within a given geographical area? (I'm from Sydney, Australia) BD, to answer your question: I have emailed women of all age ranges on OKC, up to about age 45. I read your Younger Women ebook set and targeted 18 - 23, 24 - 30…but with no success. Gotta say I got a cuppla responses but they left the conversation pretty quickly…didn't have a chance to escalate to a date pitch. I have also tried emailing women who I found attractive in their primary profile photo, regardless of age, up to about age 45. Very few responses, no dates. It may be, as Cerberus points out, that I am just not the "cup of tea" of the typical (alternative?) women on OKC; Or it may be a geographic location thing… women from Sydney, Australia bitch all day long in the tabloid media about how they "can't meet a decent guy" or "all the great guys are already 'taken' or gay…" and yet, as a group, most of them are notoriously bitchy, stuck-up, hostile and unapproachable (in cold approach - my experience is that this applies to ODS as well)…even compared to Australian women in other cities, e.g. Melbourne women are far more approachable….; Or, it's (as I suspect) just the damn photos… BD, this leads me to a cuppla questions re: UODP Should my UODP be a "head shot" - the kind that actors use? (If you Image search Google for "Bruce Willis" or "bald celebrities" or "Jason Statham" you'll see what I mean) Or a "mid shot" (head to waist), or a "long shot" (full body length shown)? Also, for older, not-traditionally-handsome guys like me: what age range of women would you recommend we pursue? I know you advise to stay away from women over age 30, and have solid arguments for this, but if women 30 or under don't want to have a bar of me then what is my next best option, age-wise, without resorting to Granny-ville? Thanks for everything that you do Nosferatu.
Sparks 2014-07-26 06:55:40
Just wanna say I took BD's advice on photos and recently changed my profile shots to ONE very good professional pic and ONE 'action' shot of me playing in my band. On the next POF blitz my response rate increased from 6% to about 20% and am getting way more Tinder matches. I agree that women online are looking for reasons to disqualify you and the less pictures you have up, the less ability they have to disqualify you - let their imagination fill in the blanks.
Dawson Stone 2014-07-26 09:22:30
Considering I am 25-30 years older than the women I go out with I don't see how I can score higher than an 8. I am very fit and have all my hair but I am shorter than average (5' 8"). I should add that my protocol is a single message on the dating site if they contact me (or make me a favorite) and give them my cell and immediately escalate via text. If I contact them, it is two messages on the site (one to see if they are interested and a 2nd to move them to cell/text). To add insult to injury (since you seem to be against sending a lot of pics) once they text me I immediately send them 3-4 more pics and ask for more from them. I do this because in my experience the women that really are fit and attractive love to send pics. The ones that don't, don't for a reason. When I didn't do this I didn't get catfished per se but I my first reaction when meeting them was disappointment. And yes I am very picky. I will hook up with a 7 if it is incredibly easy and costs me almost nothing but generally I only hook up with 8s and 9s. Many of the women I have met over the past couple of years have told me how annoyed they are when they meet a guy and he doesn't look like his pic(s) and they often thank me for having pics (and sending more). They feel it is dishonest of a guy to have pic(s) that aren't a fair representation of what he looks like. This dovetails with what women tell me in that the hardest thing to find in a guy is honesty. When their first experience is deception (with a pic that isn't a realistic version of you) they are less likely to trust you. A big part of the reason my first date close rate is so high is for two main reasons: 1) I build trust very quickly and they have to trust you at some level to sleep with you and 2) I escalate via text before meeting. I have no doubt your approach can work as well (quite frankly so does the grind of approaching hundreds of women offline) but I have yet to find one as efficient as mine yielding the same quality of women and with a very manageable cost basis.
Blackdragon 2014-07-26 10:54:29
Just wanna say I took BD’s advice on photos and recently changed my profile shots to ONE very good professional pic and ONE ‘action’ shot of me playing in my band. On the next POF blitz my response rate increased from 6% to about 20% and am getting way more Tinder matches.An over 300% increase in response rates...awesome! That's how this works!
Blackdragon 2014-07-26 11:05:53
I have no doubt your approach can work as well (quite frankly so does the grind of approaching hundreds of women offline) but I have yet to find one as efficient as mine yielding the same quality of women and with a very manageable cost basis.Absolutely. If guys are an 8 in looks and have the ability to take many travel/DHV pics you have, they should definitely try your technique too. Whatever works!
Should my UODP be a “head shot” – the kind that actors use?Good question and no. A head shot will likely look too "posed". Ideally it should show you from the waist up, but certainly could show more. Also remember one of the basic photography rules: If a photo shows your knees, it must also show your feet.
Also, for older, not-traditionally-handsome guys like me: what age range of women would you recommend we pursue? I know you advise to stay away from women over age 30, and have solid arguments for this, but if women 30 or under don’t want to have a bar of me then what is my next best option, age-wise, without resorting to Granny-ville?If you're starting from zero, start slow and easy. You're 53 and not good looking, so at the moment you should completely forget about much younger women and focus on women in their 40s or late 30s. Once you have sex with two or three of those, you'll have the confidence and skills to start hitting up younger women. Over time, keep reducing the ages of the women you're dating and stop whenever you're comfortable. Also keep improving your physical appearance as you're doing all of this (weight, grooming, dress, etc). This is exactly what I did. When I first got back into the game at age 35, believe me, I was not hitting up 19 year-olds. Instead, I spent about a year having sex with women my age, then started having dating women in their 20s, then two years later when I was around 37 I started with the much youngers. Unless you're a natural, this stuff is a progression if you're starting from absolute zero. Good stuff guys!
PUA Brian Kinney 2014-07-26 12:20:36
This online dating stuff sounds interesting and time/resources effective even though I like to hunt girls better, however anything that works this well deserves a decent shot, three questions for those seasoned in the online game: 1. "women on online dating sites are looking to DISqualify, not qualify. They are looking for things they don’t like, not things they do like." Does the above statement applies to all things? (likes, music, travels, ideology, movies...) if so, how do you deal with it? 2. Is it a good idea use plenty of DHV's online?. Since they're explicit you might be qualified in the husband or boyfriend category not the lover. 3. I think facebook might work better than those online dating sites, am I wrong? PUA Brian Kinney
superslaviswife 2014-07-27 08:26:04
From a female perspective, one thing I would change: "Usually, this means the camera is located well above your head with your head tilted slightly up, and your neck sticking slightly out (like E.T. used to do)." This works if the man is unfit and leaning to chubby. However, when a man has a defined jawline and strong neck, or when he is a little too thin, women prefer to see him from a slightly or exaggeratedly below angle. The MySpace angle works for fat girls because it hides fat necks, sharpens and thins the jawline, rounds the forehead and exaggerates the eyes. In other words, it makes her look slim and feminine. A man needs the opposite. Neck stretched upwards, jaw almost presented, neck and shoulders lightly flexed but not tense, eyes looking right down the barrel. Makes the area around the eyes look more shaded, the eyes themselves look smaller and brighter, the jaw look larger and stronger, the neck look more muscular, the facial hair more focal, etc. Also gives an illusion of height and confident posture that a female subconscious will pick up on.
fudgeman 2014-07-27 09:36:25
I have to add a disclaimer to all the shit Dawson Stone claims. Dawson uses the "sugar daddy bait and switch" style of game. He uses websites set up specificlly for women that want sugar daddies. That "game style" is MUCH different than standard online dating. What is so much different? First, the women there are expecting to meet an older man. They know most men with money and life experiance ( enough to mentor them ) are at least in their 40s or 50s. So when a 50 year old messages a 21 year old, it's absolutly no big deal on those sites. Second, the women there are very mercinary and care a lot about possible lifestyle advances, mentorship, and stright cash. They WANT to meet these men. It's nothing like normal dating sites where most of the women are on there 90% to fuck around and 10% incase Brad Pit himself shows up. When I went on one of these sites ( I'm 30 and normal looking ) I didn't even have to message anyone, I got hit up by TONS of women blatently asking to meet. All I'd have to do is follow the stanard suggar daddy bait and switch template and boom, lays upon lays if I played the cards right. I'd go as far to say that some of these women show up expecting to fuck, as to let you sample their goods and show they are serious about pleaseing their "daddy". Because of this, I have to say the majority of his advice has to be taken with a GIANT grain of salt. His close numbers and first date meet numbers are highly skewed due to his style of game and the market he operates in. Then add in the fact that he is supposedly good enough looking to post shirtless pics with positive results. On these sugar dad sites the majority of men are obese and disgusting. It's not like regualr dating sites where there are lots of normal looking men or buff men. So in short, if your a guy running classic game on a standard dating site ( like BD ) - take the advice of Dawson very lightly. He is essentially in a different world.
Blackdragon 2014-07-27 10:41:55
1. “women on online dating sites are looking to DISqualify, not qualify. They are looking for things they don’t like, not things they do like.” Does the above statement applies to all things? (likes, music, travels, ideology, movies…)Generally speaking, yes, but not as much as with photos. The older the woman, the more this is "looking for negatives" dynamic is true.
if so, how do you deal with it?Minimum number of photos to get the job done. Minimum amount of profile text to get the job done. Very general, nonspecific answers to questions the dating site asks, like "Do you want more kids?", answer "Undecided." Etc.
2. Is it a good idea use plenty of DHV’s online?. Since they’re explicit you might be qualified in the husband or boyfriend category not the lover.You're somewhat right. If you use too many DHVs, you will attract provider hunters and gold diggers and waste a bunch of time (ask me how I know). If you have zero DHVs, your response rates will be dreadful (unless you're very good-looking). So you do need a few DHVs on your profile. Not too many though.
3. I think facebook might work better than those online dating sites, am I wrong?Yes, you're wrong. While there are exceptions to every rule, Facebook is generally a nightmare for cold approach online game. You will waste mountains of time on there for zero results. Facebook is a great tool for re-fucking ex-FBs and ex-MLTRs, as well as social circle game, but that's not cold approach online game.
This works if the man is unfit and leaning to chubby. However, when a man has a defined jawline and strong neck, or when he is a little too thin, women prefer to see him from a slightly or exaggeratedly below angle.I partially agree, however even skinny guys, particularity men over age 35, can still get really bad looking double-chin things going if they don't angle their heads/faces correctly. It's very easy to make your upper neck look bad. Sticking your head out a little bit does help this, across the board.
Blackdragon 2014-07-27 10:43:17
I have to add a disclaimer to all the shit Dawson Stone claims. Dawson uses the “sugar daddy bait and switch” style of game. He uses websites set up specificlly for women that want sugar daddies. That “game style” is MUCH different than standard online dating.Correct. Technique for sugar daddy sites is indeed different than on normal dating sites like OKC/POF/Match/etc. As I said to Brian above, if you DHV too much on a non-sugar daddy site, you're going to end up with women who are looking for cash or providership, not sex, and that's bad.
PUA Brian Kinney 2014-07-27 12:44:24
Another short term great project for me: "Mastering online game". BD: The way I see online game is comparable to a fishing tool, that is, for finding and setting up contact logistics with girls and THAT'S IT. Once you get the date the same ol' core fundamentals of seduction applies, right? There are many advantages to online game, I think that the best ones are time and resources effectiveness and VARIETY 🙂 I don't know Dawson so I don't know if what Fudgeman says is true but generally speaking suggar daddy game fu***** sucks I'm not even sure it is game at all. I want to try it though... ...In my late 80's ha ha. Great post by the way, the pictures in your profile have to be the most important element of them all at first glance. PUA Brian Kinney
Dawson Stone 2014-07-27 13:33:11
@fudgeman I find it hilarious that you are disclaiming my comments. But let me address what you actually said. In order for it to be "bait and switch" I would have to promise something I don't deliver. I do not. In fact, my profile is crystal clear that I won't be anyone's ATM. And you hit the point exactly on the head…on a sugardaddy dating site the attractive women contact you! And you are exactly correct, that on the sugar daddy sites I am competing against 60 yo, fat, bald guys. My point is if a guy is over 30, decent looking (7+), isn't fat and has even a modicum of success it is FAR AND AWAY the most efficient and effective way to meet women. And I am not saying to get laid (although that is easy) but to date and even have relationships with these women (if that's what you want) without it costing any more than any girlfriend/women you date would cost you. Less if you are smart about it. And for a time I was on Match.com and the SD sites. About 25% of the women overlap. Bottom line is any women will be happy to let you pay all your bills if you like. But so long as you are straightforward about what you are and aren't willing to do it is easy to stay away from the women that just want your wallet. But EVERY women if she is honest about it wants a successful guy. Do you think women marry guys that aren't either well off or think they have high earning potential? The SD site just cuts through the crap. The women on Match are the same…the only difference is the match.com women make it harder to get in their pants because they are seeking a relationship (often). @Brian Kinney If you think having sex with 50-60 beautiful women (probably 40 of which I could have a relationship with if I wanted to) a year with a FRACTION of the effort it would take through any other medium sucks…well then keep doing it your way. The biggest reason for doing game (I don't even think of it as game) online on SD sites is because the supply and demand curve is insanely good. Any other venue is 5-10x worse. In the blind kingdom the one eyed man is king. Just three days ago I met a beautiful (8 1/2) 19 year old. Sophomore in an Ivy league school. Two messages on the site. About 30 text messages over two days. One phone call. First date close. CPO ~$25. Try that offline with a women 30 years your junior. Mock me if you want but what I am doing works. I am posting on here to help guys (30+) since it took me years to figure this crap out. One of BDs commenters wrote me directly as a result of one of my earlier posts and here is what he said to me word-for-word after taking some of my advice: "Not only are these women leagues above women of other dating sites (or anywhere really), but the way they treat you is just great. They see your time as more valuable so its very easy to fit things into a schedule. The thought of doing a long grind of dates and social activities in the hopes of getting laid (like normal people do) just makes me want to throw up now. You can literary have ten times hotter women and ten times more women, all while while spending ten times less time and effort compared to normal guys. Which means plenty of time for your business and keeping in shape and such. This in turns leads to you being even more ahead of the general guy, with even more wealth, even better fitness and even more confidence in a self feeding mechanism. It really is crazy when you think about it, and it really explains why the normal guy generally have to trade down to get any. The hottest and youngest women are kept busy by just a handful of men that has it all, trickling down through the ranks in a way that is very skewed against the average man.Thanks again!"
PUA Brian Kinney 2014-07-27 21:46:44
@Dawson It was not my intention to make fun of you, I don't know you and I just said that sugar daddy "game" sucks. Wow! you have great numbers for your age I hopefully I'll can do the same, for now, I have to tell you that yes I can get those numbers in any venues but it may not apply to everyone (I'm a PUA master and I'm 29) but online game is definitely something I want to try and many guys here incluiding you are clearly great online players. I don't think that different styles are mutually exclusive but it might be better to master one at a time and since night and day game are no longer a challenge I want to give online game a shot. Thank you guys for your great comments and ideas. PUA Brian Kinney
Dawson Stone 2014-07-27 22:20:19
I will say that my view on it is slightly different. I really don't see what I do as "game" although I understand why people might see it that way. I simply see the offline world (for identifying women to meet) as incredibly inefficient. Imagine you were at a club or bar and you could line up all the women by age and body type, see if they were even semi-intelligent all without opening your mouth. You simply can't do that offline. Online allows you to go through literally thousands of women in a fraction of the time it would take offline. Not to mention, there is NO OFFLINE EQUIVALENT to lining up out-of-town women when you are going away on business or traveling with buddies. Yes you can hit the clubs or bars when you get there but on my last trip to Toronto with two of my buddies I had an 18 year old waiting for me in my hotel room (I had the front desk leave her a key since I was getting in later). Again, there simply isn't a way to do that offline. But now to my actual point. I don't run game. I am simply myself. I am well educated. Well travelled. A great Dad. Successful. In excellent shape. Interesting. I know these are all things women WANT in a man. The problem is how do I communicate those things to someone without sounding like I am bragging. Online solves all that for me if my profile is written correctly. While I do use many techniques to get a woman to lower her guard and get to know me it is with the goal that she get to KNOW me. In fact it is my ability to be open, vulnerable and present that allows them to behave in a similar fashion and for me to really get to know them. I have had a huge percentage of the women I have met tell me that in two hours I know them better then people they had known their whole lives. The reason is simple, I make it safe to tell me anything and I am willing to tell them anything. I am honest with them that I don't believe that romantic love is a good basis for any relationship. That I don't believe in marriage. That I won't have kids again. That religion is for idiots. That free will is an illusion. That when we die, I believe we become worm food and nothing more. I sugar coat nothing. My experience is that NOTHING turns a woman on more then just being yourself so long as your think yourself is someone worth being. I meet these women and because they met me on a Sugar Daddy Dating (SDD) site and because I have escalated them sexually via text before meeting them, they think I am going to try to screw them the minute I meet them. Instead I actually try to get to know them as a person. And I am not pretending to get to know them…I actually am. This insight makes it easy to close…not to get over on them but because duh…I want to get laid and so do they. I just need to get them to drop their ASD and this works amazingly well. And while I might sleep with a women once that's personality or intelligence is lacking if she is really hot (8 1/2 at a minimum) every women that I see on an ongoing basis I really enjoy as a person and do my level best to improve their lives wherever and whenever I can. In return, they value me even more and are likely to stick around longer and give me less drama.
superslaviswife 2014-07-28 07:57:08
"even skinny guys, particularity men over age 35, can still get really bad looking double-chin things going if they don’t angle their heads/faces correctly" In which case the best pose would be slightly tightened neck and throat (to suck the looser under-jaw skin in), head tilted a little upwards and chin slightly outwards, but not too obviously, presenting jaw. Should avoid double-chins and make the female feel like she's walking past a 6'5" Alpha behemoth. Of course, if you observe human features long enough you work out a pose, angle and lighting that looks good on you or on certain physical archetypes. Hence why some girls can make themselves look like a 9/10 online without 'shopping when they're a 6/10 IRL. So stare at yourself like a narcissistic teenager and you may discover a certain angle works really well for you. Illustration of differences: Bottom row is more or less what I'm talking about.
Dawson Stone 2014-07-28 08:02:13
@Brian Kinney Since I don't know you I will take it at face value that you are able to close one new woman a week every week for a year investing less than (on average) 3 hours of your time. I have no idea how you plan to run your game when you are traveling (other then investing still more time once you arrive at your destination). If offline you really can do that well then online you would NEVER have to touch a woman again that isn't a solid 9 if you tried the SDD approach. For me the joy isn't in the hunt but in actually having amazing sex and spending time with the highest quality and most attractive women possible with the smallest amount of time wasting and drama. For those of you that enjoy the hunt, my approach probably doesn't make sense.
AfroPanda 2017-08-21 15:11:43
@Dawson Stone Which Sugar Daddy Dating Sites do you use?