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Why Get A Prenup At All? Why Move In With A Woman At All?
Lately a few of you have given me the following criticisms: "BD, why are you talking to guys about what to do if you move in with a woman? That's crazy! You should NEVER move in with a woman EVER." "BD, why you always telling guys to get prenups? That's crazy! You should NEVER get legally married EVER!"
-By Caleb Jones
Of course I lean far more in the NEVER EVER direction than I do the pro-monogamy one; that should be obvious to anyone who's read my stuff before. Ideally, yes, no man would ever legally marry a woman. As a matter of fact, I have argued, and will continue to do so, that if men simply controlled themselves and stopped marrying women, women would repeal alimony almost instantly.
The problem? We don't live in a perfect world. Men are flawed when it comes to this, including woman-successful, well-read Alphas. Most Alphas are going to get married no matter what you, I, or anyone else in the manosphere is going to say.
Would you like some empirical evidence on that? Okay, let me show you something. Several months ago I took an informal poll on our forum. It asked all the PUAs/players/Alphas there what they intended to do "once you're older" and they were "done" fucking all these women.
These men are not AFCs and not betas. These men are not uninformed. These are men who are getting laid a lot. These men (at least the vast majority of them) are knowledgeable, well-read, successful-with-women Alphas who know all about monogamy not working, the dangers of getting married, and all the other manosphere red pill stuff.
The results were very interesting.
22% said they were going to move in with a woman and get monogamous anyway, married or otherwise. Think about that for a minute. That's almost one-fourth of the entire group.
17% said they were going to move in with a woman, but not get monogamous.
A whopping 37% said they had "no idea" what they were going to do. This is much worse than it sounds. I can tell you from vast experience in working with men, this is another way of saying, "I'm going to be player until I get older, or want children, or get oneitis for someone. Then I'll get monogamous and settle down."
Never getting monogamous, never getting legally married, consistently resisting these false but intense societal and biological pressures for decades on end, takes constant, conscious effort and a very strong will. If you have all the information before you and still "don't know" what you're going to do when you get into your 30s, 40s, or 50s, and have no long-term battle plan about this you feel strongly about, then I'm betting money that eventually, someday you're getting monogamous and/or legally married. And I'm going to be right. This will be especially true when you want to have kids, which the vast majority of you younger men will want someday no matter how independent Alpha badass you think you are.
So if you do the math on this, around 59% percent of these manosphere, red pill men, posting on a largely anti-monogamy forum, are either definitely or most likely going to "settle down" someday in a monogamous fashion.
Add in the 17% of men who will move in with a woman someday but will never get monogamous or legally married, and you've got 76% of red pill men who are going to "settle down" someday. And again, this is on a mostly anti-monogamy PUA forum! Isn't that incredible? This means there are many other PUA or manosphere communities where this 76% is 80%, 90%, or even higher.
Are you starting to see the problem here?
Do you see how much good it would do for me to scream NEVER GET MARRIED EVER to men all day? At least three-fourths of the red pill, manosphere audience would shrug and ignore that advice, and spout out all the usual excuses ("but I want kids," "that won't happen to me," "Athol Kay did it," etc), and go get monogamous and/or legally married anyway.
I learned this a very long time ago, before I even started writing this blog. Most Alpha Male, PUA, red pill players are going to either get monogamous or married someday, regardless of the non-stop, 24/7 bombardment from the manosphere they read saying to not do this.
This is to say nothing of the pro-marriage and pro-monogamy elements within the manosphere, of which there are many strong voices. Gurus behind the concept of "long-term monogamy works as long as you do it right" (many of whom I respect even if I disagree with them) have plenty of enthusiastic followers themselves. Every year, sadly, there are more aging, high-profile ex-PUAs and ex-players getting monogamously married, singing the praises of marriage and/or monogamy as long as you "screen" or something.
This is why observant readers will notice that instead of saying NEVER GET MARRIED EVER, I tend to say,
"Don't get legally married. It's a dumb, reckless, and extremely risky act. There's no reason to do it and you can get everything you want by living with a woman and not being married. But, if you can't control yourself and you get married anyway, then okay punk, here's how you should do it..."
Like it or not, that advice has much higher odds of penetrating men's thick, Societally Programmed skulls about this rather than the NEVER GET MARRIED EVER mantra (which I do agree with!). The majority of the manosphere audience will snort and ignore me if I say NEVER GET MARRIED EVER, and thus will unlikely change any behaviors. But perhaps 70% (or so) of my reading audience or better will probably pay some attention to my more realistic advice above, and thus change their behaviors for the better.
Am I happy that I'm forced to qualify my advice like that? No. Yet these are the realities we have to work with, folks. As always, I calibrate my actions based on how things work in the real world, rather than how I want things to work or wish things would work. I would love it if men reading the manosphere suddenly snapped out of their Disney trance and stopped getting married...but that's not the case.
What about living with a woman someday without getting legally married? Well, if you live with a woman under a long-term monogamous relationship, legally married or not, you're either ignorant, delusional, have a lower sex drive, or you enjoy drama on some level. But I've already talked about that to death.
Then what if you want to cohabit with a woman someday but not be monogamous or legally married? That's called a live-in OLTR and it's perfectly fine. I've been talking about that for many years. Something like 97% of men are going to co-habit someday, at some point in their lives, at some age, even if it's an older age. This includes Alpha 1.0s and 2.0s. It's inevitable. Human beings are pair-bonding creatures.
As above, I could sit here and scream NEVER MOVE IN WITH A WOMAN EVER, but 97% of you would eventually ignore my advice, and I'd be wasting my time again. Moreover, I myself plan on moving in with a woman someday under a nonmonogamous, unmarried OLTR arrangement as I've discussed in detail before, as millions of other men have already done successfully.
So once again, my advice is,
"Hey, I know you're a human being and I know you're going to move in with a woman eventually, someday, no matter how much of a badass player you are right now. So alright, when you do that, here's how you should do it..."
Again, because of the nature of the audience, there are far higher odds of success with that advice than NEVER MOVE IN WITH A WOMAN EVER.
I have also said many times, and will continue to say, that when a man moves in with a woman, there is a instant shift of some power from male to female, even if it's nonmonogamous. There is also at least a small increase of drama you're going to have to put up with from her, again even if it's nonmonogamous and you're an Alpha 2.0 to a T. This is the price you pay to satisfy the human need to co-habit / pair bond that 97% of you (including me) have, or will have as you get older. That still doesn't mean the NEVER MOVE IN WITH A WOMAN EVER advice will be effective in changing men's behaviors.
Finally, the problem with the NEVER MARRY A WOMAN EVER and NEVER MOVE IN WITH A WOMAN EVER advice is, if I was saying those things, once most of the men in my reading audience did those things anyway (which they will!), they would have no logistical tools whatsoever to deal with those circumstances. Since I would be saying NEVER EVER, I would never be talking about how to do it if you did it. These men would then be even worse off, having entered into their marriage or non-married co-habitation completely incorrectly. (No prenup, no co-habitation agreement, combining of finances, monogamy, etc.)
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d 2014-08-28 07:46:39
Well thought out. Much like teaching kids about condoms and birth control instead of abstinence, you lower the odds of serious mistakes being made
Sageadvice 2014-08-28 10:25:12
This is a well-thought out article. I been reading many blogs over the years in Manosphere and very few really address, what do you do "when it is time to hang up the spurs". So let me frame this differently. I am 56 and in very good shape. By good, I mean you would not be able to tell me apart from someone 15 years younger than me. So big deal. I have also been with 700+ women in my life. I gave up "counting" in 1983, when the count was 216, so I am sure it is somewhere in that range. Most of the women I have been with have been 6's and 7's, BTW. Not many 8's or 9's, they are much harder to bag and take a lot more effort to keep around. I have also been married. Twice. No kids. There WILL be a time when you get tired of running game. It is as they say in the Movie "The Matrix" an inevitability. 56 may seem old to some reading this, but I assure you, if you take care of yourself, workout and have a good career, you can run the tables for a LONG time. But, at some point, you will get tired of it, get lonely, want to stop all of the drama, stop dealing with rejection, whatever it is and settle down. It is A LOT harder said than done. Part of it has to deal with changing your psychology, that is, having different women all the time and part of it is that getting hotter, younger women becomes more difficult (why be with a dude 56, when I can be with a dude with is 36). Lying about your age is not an option here, either. Women find out. That said, the advice here is about protecting your assets and your position. Whether you retire from the game at 40 or 50, there will be a point where you may want to. It is HARD to wrap your head around it when you are 22 and you have time on your side. Even if you are 32, you have a LOT thread on the tires. My best advice is, protect your own interests! I know SO MANY guys who got married, that were sure that she was the one. had a few kids, got divorced and ended up in a financial position that was worse than when they started. They look at me and always say: "I should have stayed single". Then again, I look at them and they have great kids to hang their hat on. No one answer is for everyone. However, reading to educate yourself and keeping your options open is always a wise thing to do.
Korg 2014-08-28 11:04:11
The idea that you can screen women to see if they are good matched for a marriage is crazy. The normal screening for being DTF skills are not the same, and I doubt skill in DTF detection results in monogamy detection skills. People should not think mastery in one skill means you have mastered women in general.
Blackdragon 2014-08-28 11:27:30
The idea that you can screen women to see if they are good matched for a marriage is crazy. The normal screening for being DTF skills are not the same, and I doubt skill in DTF detection results in monogamy detection skills. People should not think mastery in one skill means you have mastered women in general.Absolutely correct. It's game myth number 5, one of the most common myths in game.
PUA Brian Kinney 2014-08-28 16:19:35
Posts like this are the reason of why this blog is so fu***** good. "30s, 40s, or 50s, and have no long-term battle plan" In a few moths I'll turn 30, I've taken this seriously and I made my Master plan this year I'm fully aware of the human needs, BD have rock solid arguments and so far my plan regarding women seems like this: 30's, 40's and possibly 50's (I have killer genetics): Bang every hot girl I see 🙂 Maybe 50's (If I feel really lonely) and maybe 60's if my nutrition, workout and anti-aging plans worked: "SERIAL OLTRs" I've thought about this a lot and it seems the best option, this way you get the best of many worlds, first, you have the pair bonding issues covered, secondly you don't put at risk your financial future (a key for later), also you have the pleasure of many OLTRs, for example in two decades you'll have 4 OLTRs if the rotation is every 5 years and finally you keep getting variety without ever getting monogamous and you have a way out or plan B for the 3 to 7 years when things gets lets say, complicated. 70's and beyond: Are girls even important at this age? I think so and I have to share 2 jokes: -4 yr old boy: How old are you? -Second boy: I don't know -4 yr old boy: Are you concerned about girls? -Second Boy: No -4 yr old boy: You're 3 years old *Writer: Mr. John Doe, with 101 years of experience I'm sure you must have very cool things to share and many useful tips and tricks to get laid, right? *Mr. John Doe: I'm not so sure that I can be so useful for you young man, I've stopped thinking about women a year ago. If girls are still important I might have a remaining OLTR or find the companion of a third world country female willing to live with me, take care of me and give me some sugar (Asia and South America seem to be great options for this). This young girl will be rewarded with the company of a seasoned Casanova, a life of comfort and maybe some cash. Please guys(specially BD), feel free to tell me what you think of my plan. Also I'm planning a research about the way LGTB community handles logistics for the last years when sex and relationships are no longer important. Two questions BD: 1. If you cohabit with a woman for some years are you obligated by law to financially take care of her if things don't work? (No kids) 2. Your last post was also awesome. Do I have any testosterone, manliness or hormones in general issues if I get a vasectomy? PUA Brian Kinney
Mike 2014-08-28 18:03:56
Great post as always BD. When's the book coming out?
Phero 2014-08-28 18:33:00
I agree with you, but think you left out a key question: What have those men got to lose? In most case it's nothing. Most of these manospehere and pua men either don't have much in the way of assets or have been fleeced by previous women. Given this they might have something to gain by hitching up with a career woman, or a post divorce woman who fleeced some other guy for his house (no more rent!). A 35-40yo man who owns a house, has a few investments, good income etc why would he put it all on the line for some woman who brings little to a relationship but demands lots? If you have nothing to lose, nothing matters. So I would say its goes a little deeper than it appears, more analysis needed.
Blackdragon 2014-08-28 21:08:16
“SERIAL OLTRs”Sounds fine to me, as long as you don't live with them. If you're talking about moving a woman in and out of your house every five years, that's sounds like a pain in the ass, especially if you're 60+ when you're doing it, but that's just me.
70′s and beyond: Are girls even important at this age? I think soI do too. My grandpa had 3 girlfriends well into his 80s, all "younger women" in their 50s, and he wasn't taking any testosterone. My sex drive takes after him, so I'm assuming I'll still be a horny bastard at that age, especially considering I'll still be on testosterone (or the future equivalent).
Two questions BD: 1. If you cohabit with a woman for some years are you obligated by law to financially take care of her if things don’t work? (No kids)Depends on the state and country, but generally the answer is yes if the relationsihp lasts long enough and if the law deems it as a "relationsihp akin to marriage." You need to have her sign a co-habitation agreement, keep all finances separate, keep the relationship sexually open, make sure she doesn't change careers after she moves in, and take a few other precautions. In really bad countries/states you may even have to move her out of the house before X years to prevent common law marriage or palimony vulnerability.
Do I have any testosterone, manliness or hormones in general issues if I get a vasectomy?I'm not qualified to answer that, but my laymen's guess is no. The biggest dangers to testosterone are age, diet, sedentary lifestyle, and stress, in about that order, not vasectomy.
Blackdragon 2014-08-28 21:18:17
What have those men got to lose?By getting married and monogamous? Are you kidding? Let me count the losses: 1. Future wealth and earnings. 2. Long-term consistent happiness. 3. Sexual freedom. 4. A low-drama lifestyle.
Most of these manospehere and pua men either don’t have much in the way of assets or have been fleeced by previous women.Does that mean that guy will NEVER have any money? Just because you have no money when you're 25, that means you'll have no money when you're 50? That you'll really need to retire? Do you realize the number of men who got fucked in divorces because they didn't get a prenup, using the exact excuse you're using? They didn't have any money when they got married, but 10-15 years later they did.
Given this they might have something to gain by hitching up with a career woman, or a post divorce woman who fleeced some other guy for his house (no more rent!).No, because alimony ends as soon as a woman marries a new guy. If she has assets from her first divorce, those would still stay, but again, what happens to any FUTURE assets the guy earns? In a divorce she'll get 'em. In terms of having no money yourself, having no money as a young guy in your 20s is understandable. But if you literally plan on being a low-income loser for the REST OF YOUR LIFE, NEVER having any real money yourself, then I guess one could do whatever he wanted. Hopefully men with that kind of fucked-up life plan aren't going to be reading my blog. 🙂
Blackdragon 2014-08-28 21:21:22
When’s the book coming out?Late September / early October. I was working on the current draft all day today. I'm getting a lot of folks asking so I'll make an update post.
Phero 2014-08-29 02:09:58
BD I agree with you, but if: "76% of red pill men who are going to “settle down” someday." and "At least three-fourths of the red pill, manosphere audience would shrug and ignore that advice, and spout out all the usual excuses" are to go by, it means that the don't care and will do it anyway. I'm just delving into the "why" they don't care. Given that at least 70% of the population is not wealthy or financially independent and does not have a lifetime's work to lose, they don't seem to care *as much* as a high wealth man. So I'm sure plenty of your readers and the pua/manosphere are in the 70% and agree with us, but then see sex and free rent. The man gold digger lol. I do know of a few men with nothing to their names who married or live with a woman who divorce inherited a house. And I see this as a rising trend, as they live on the back of those guys who got divorce raped. The usual "she left the good (read sucker) husband for the drunken bum" stories. It is a big problem, successful good men are quitting the "modern family" concept many MGTOW. They have too much to lose being married, fathering kids, living with women etc and they don't see the other options. Let me restate my view: Good men have too much to lose getting married or in a defacto marriage relationship. We are both screaming "NEVER MOVE IN WITH A WOMAN EVER or NEVER GET MARRIED EVER". ftr i am >40 never married and above avg wealth. PS I like the blog, been reading for about a year now.
The why 2014-08-29 09:10:30
Phero, BD isn't much of a "why" guy, which is fine. But you're right when you say some people have nothing/little to lose. Determinism plays it out this way.
It-Began-In-Africa 2014-08-29 09:14:01
BD, what a timely and helpful piece, thank you. Now you also say that: "Never getting monogamous, never getting legally married, consistently resisting these false but intense societal and biological pressures for decades on end, takes constant, conscious effort and a very strong will." I thought that your message also revolved around men channeling our 'biological' natures in ways that are more consistent with who we are as the male of our species, rather than suppressing and denying them? I am all for resisting the modern societal programming, which causes a great deal of harm to men. One love.
Blackdragon 2014-08-29 10:42:14
I’m just delving into the “why” they don’t care. Given that at least 70% of the population is not wealthy or financially independent and does not have a lifetime’s work to lose, they don’t seem to care *as much* as a high wealth man. So I’m sure plenty of your readers and the pua/manosphere are in the 70% and agree with us, but then see sex and free rent. The man gold digger lol.Yes, emotionally and irrationally, many men see huge benefits to getting married/monogamous of course. That's why so many men do it. As I stated in the post, it's much easier to surrender to Societal Programming than it is to resist it. Moreover, I have also said that monogamy is easier during the initial stages of the relationship. You just get monogamous and she says yes. Done. There is no technique, no planning, no unusual parameters. It's easy. It all explodes later of course, but initially it's easy, which is why so many people do it. So yes, when men look at mono marriage, MOST men see "easy sex" and "free rent" and "my girlfriend, friends, and mom will stop bothering me" and all kinds of other temporary benefits. Absolutely that's true. These men are, by and large, lazy and/or short-term thinkers.
I do know of a few men with nothing to their names who married or live with a woman who divorce inherited a house.I know a teeny tiny percentage of marriage men like that too. Go here and look at excuses 35 and 39. These men are lazy, short-term thinkers who are taking a huge, huge risk. Not that they care (yet).
It is a big problem, successful good men are quitting the “modern family” concept many MGTOW.I don't consider this a problem because I no longer care about Western society, and in my opinion you shouldn't either, since it left you behind a long time ago, as I explained here and here.
They have too much to lose being married, fathering kids, living with women etc and they don’t see the other options.It's my goal to help educate these men to the other options available for co-habitation with a woman they love. That's what I DO care about.
We are both screaming “NEVER MOVE IN WITH A WOMAN EVER or NEVER GET MARRIED EVER”.Actually I'm not screaming that. That's the point of the above post. I am screaming "If you get married, don't get monogamous and get an enforceable prenup. It's not that hard."
Blackdragon 2014-08-29 10:45:51
Phero, BD isn’t much of a “why” guy, which is fine. But you’re right when you say some people have nothing/little to lose. Determinism plays it out this way.And you're not much of a "back up what you say with actual points" guy, which is fine.
Blackdragon 2014-08-29 10:50:39
Now you also say that: “Never getting monogamous, never getting legally married, consistently resisting these false but intense societal and biological pressures for decades on end, takes constant, conscious effort and a very strong will.”Correctamundo, as I just was saying to Phero above.
I thought that your message also revolved around men channeling our ‘biological’ natures in ways that are more consistent with who we are as the male of our species, rather than suppressing and denying them?You're right, I do. However there are some outdated biological desires we have that actually make us less happy if we embrace them. In the upcoming book I call this OBW, or Obsolete Biological Wiring, which is just as dangerous as Societal Programming. Most of your biological urges are good and healthy, but a few are not only useless, but dangerous to yourself and your own happiness. In another month or so when the book comes out I can get into more specifics on this.
It-Began-In-Africa 2014-08-30 01:07:48
Can't wait to read and learn more about the OBW. Fascinating stuff.
Dawson Stone 2014-08-30 09:35:49
Great post. I do actually think some men can be convinced to not marry if we yell loud enough. I have convinced two myself in the last 6 months. I am actually thinking about adding a thermometer to my blog home page (like you have when raising money for a cause) for "Marriages Avoided." And to a few of the points, the risks to a high value man getting married are way higher then your average man. Sure lots of guys at 25 have much less than when they are 45 but most Americas have little wealth creation opportunities or drive to do so. Regardless all your other points still hold anyway…marriage (and IMO cohabitation under and circumstances) will always lead to a reduce level of happiness for men except in the rarest of conditions where the woman is loaded. But even then, the man probably feels like a piece of garbage.
Blackdragon 2014-08-30 11:39:18
I do actually think some men can be convinced to not marry if we yell loud enough. I have convinced two myself in the last 6 months.No, you probably didn't. You need to wait 20 years and see if those two guys NEVER get married. The odds are overwhelming that they will later in life. I applaud your efforts and completely agree with what you're doing, but what you did is help delay these men getting married, not prevent.
And to a few of the points, the risks to a high value man getting married are way higher then your average man. Sure lots of guys at 25 have much less than when they are 45 but most Americas have little wealth creation opportunities or drive to do so.It's true that the less money a man has, the less risk he incurs from marriage. Regardless, in a 64% divorce rate culture, a low-income guy wanting a free house is in for a big shock when his higher-income wife divorces his ass and takes his free house away. Being dependent on a woman like that is one of the most disgusting things I can think of, and it makes me puke to even be discussing this. I will never be giving the advice to men to be lazy, not make much money, and be financially dependent on a woman. For fucks sake, that advice is even worse than blue pill. It's nauseating.
Jack Outside the Box 2014-08-30 15:07:53
I think you meant to say, "that advice is even worse than blue pill."
Blackdragon 2014-08-30 15:16:39
You're right. Typing too fast. Corrected.
Greg 2014-09-28 08:44:16
I find it strange you defend the "human need to co-habit / pair bond that 97% of you (including me) have" while at the same time downplay jealousy as 'outdated caveman biology'. Why not get over both, if they lead to suffering? Is this the most efficient balance?
Blackdragon 2014-09-28 11:54:45
I find it strange you defend the “human need to co-habit / pair bond that 97% of you (including me) have” while at the same time downplay jealousy as ‘outdated caveman biology’. Why not get over both, if they lead to suffering? Is this the most efficient balance? That's a great point and I can't argue with it. What I can say is that my biological urge to co-habit is not overwhelming, pressing, or mandatory. If I never move in with another woman for the rest of my life, that is perfectly fine with me and I will still be very, very happy. So you could say my co-habitation biology is well under control. The opposite would be the guy (or gal) who NEEDS to move in with someone ASAP or else they feel lonely or a failure. That would be someone surrendering to his biology in a negative way.
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Popui fa 2018-01-07 10:07:40
Hi BD What made you decide that PF was the right woman to be your OLTR?
Sailormack 2018-09-15 06:10:51
Just picked up this thread from the link in the latest BD/PF cohabitation thread. I'm interested in what percentage of the 3% who don't cohabitate can maintain a long term relationship (whether monogamous or non-monogamous). That scenario would be separate living arrangements while maintaining a relationship including children. I'm wondering if this situation would likely be more successful in a non-monogamous or monogamous basis?
RedPillSwingerPL 2020-03-26 00:51:15
Nice post BD! I think this is an inevitable choice for most of us regardless of the alpha pedigree one has the moment the thought of having children pops into your mind. And it eventually will for most of us, otherwise our species would perish, sorry. I have 2 doubts regarding prenups and cohabitation. I've never ever EVER cohabitated for more than a week, maybe a couple if it was on holiday which doesn't meet the definition anyway. Furthermore, I've been swinging for 10 years so I don't mind my partners having sex with other people, however, once you move in the logistics are screwed. How do you manage that? Second, in my experience prenups are NOT protective in the case a partner has an unwanted pregnancy with someone else (condoms DO break) so in that scenario you're as good as fucked for the State doesn't care, even if you specified that in the prenup. Or at least this is valid in most European countries (I'm a Eurofuck). Good luck to all the guys who choose this road, remember to sign a prenup it's like fastening your seatbelt before driving.
RedPillSwingerPL 2020-03-26 00:54:35
@Sailormack I think that arrangement tends to favour women. You definitely like to play it on hard mode, should you choose such a way be ready to take the risk that one day she might take the kids out of the blue. Sadly, that happens and you'll feel devastated.