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Happiness or Longevity? – An Experiment
About a year ago I caused quite a stir, as I usually do when I discuss these topics, when I made a post about yet more scientific proof that most women eventually get sexually bored with their husbands. This bolsters my overall point that human beings were never designed for long-term monogamy, and that choosing long-term monogamy as a life path is a very big mistake for most people in the 21st century; at least for those under the age of 60 or so.
-By Caleb Jones
Though a small handful of people tried to make some points, most dissenters (on that site and other sites who mentioned me) threw out all the usual personal attacks I've been getting for many years when I talk about monogamy not working. Things like I'm just pissed off because I got divorced (almost a decade ago), nothing I say can be trusted because I sell books (so you can't trust anything you find at your local bookstore; all those authors are selling books!), I'm an asshole because my language is harsh (everyone knows harsh=incorrect), I'm so shallow I can only date young dumb women (even though I regularly date women in their 30s and 40s, including right now), all I care about is sex (which is why I talk so much about the importance of long-term relationships), etc. In other words, all the stuff that you already know is inaccurate if you've read more than one or two blog posts here.
As is often the case on the internet, personal attacks are used by people when they can't respond to the actual points I'm making. It's easier to have "you're dumb!" discourse rather than have an adult discussion about these very important issues.
Anyway, reading through the comments on this web site and a few others, I was starkly reminded about a very interesting difference between married people and unmarried people.
So I decided to run a little experiment in order to demonstrate it. You may have been a part of this experiment without realizing it. The results were interesting.
Happiness vs. Longevity
One of the biggest differences between people, particularly women, who have been married a long time and people who are unmarried is their differences on their views of sex, happiness, and longevity of the relationship/marriage.
I have said before that people in marriages, or people who are very pro-monogamy, generally view the length of the marriage as more important than the happiness of the two participants.
This is a common scenario that is played out in modern society. A woman who has been married well past the three-year mark will be talking to some other people, most of whom are unmarried. They will start talking about their relationships. Soon she will be bragging (or at least heavily implying) that she is the most successful person, in terms of relationships, than anyone else in the group.
Why? Because she's been married for 14 years and hasn't gotten divorced (yet). Everyone else in the group is either single, dating, divorced, or newly married. So she "wins."
In other words, her only criteria for success is how long she's been married. That's it. Nothing else matters.
The sneaky part is she neglects to tell the group that in those last 14 years she's:
Been in and out of marital counseling.
Been stressed out of her mind with financial problems while trying to raise two kids.
Often does not get a full night's sleep.
Had numerous arguments with her husband about how he wants to have sex when she doesn't.
Had numerous arguments with her husband about the kids.
Had numerous arguments with her husband about money and financial issues.
Has been unable to go on numerous trips and vacations she's really wanted to have (including long, jealous meanderings on Facebook looking at photos of the unmarried or childless people's cool trips/vacations/events/cruises.)
Has gained 37 pounds since her wedding.
Feels stressed so often she now considers regular stress as a normal condition of her life.
But see, none of that matters. Despite all that pain and chaos, she has this thing called a "marriage" she can point to in order to indicate her "success."
She will also neglect to note that most of the people in the group she's talking to are very, very happy. Way happier than she is and happier more often. Most of the unmarried people are usually smiling, happy, not nearly as stressed, and can do whatever they want with their lives, while she's usually stressed and complaining about money, husband, work, kids, etc.
But that also doesn't matter. She's more "successful" than those happy people. She's "made it" as a married woman. Hopefully those silly, unfortunate, unmarried people will get married themselves soon and have long, stressful, freedomless marriages like her.
In other words, the fact she's had a long marriage is more important to her than the fact she's not nearly as happy as she was when she was unmarried. Happiness is not her goal. Relationship longevity is. As long as her marriage lasts a really long time, ideally "forever," she wins. The fact she's often unhappy and her husband is often unhappy is completely irrelevant. The "good of the marriage" has superseded her natural and healthy human desire for happiness. All those crazy, right-wing, Christian fundamentalists would be very proud of her.
The Reduced Importance of Sex
There's another very large difference you'll see between marred vs. unmarried people, particularly married women. It's the importance of sex in one's life.
Have you ever had someone in conversation say to you, "Geez! Is sex really that important?" Likely you have.
Now here's the fascinating thing. Think back to the last person you heard say that (or saw type that online). I'm willing to bet that A) it was a woman and B) it was a married woman. Moreover, I'm also willing to bet it was a woman who has been married for longer than three years. Longtime readers here are already aware of the biological and mental changes women go through after three years in a cohabiting, monogamous relationship to the same man.
Try this as an experiment. Next time you hear anyone say any variation of "Geez! Is sex really that important?", immediately take note of the gender and marital status of that person. You'll find that damn near 100% of the time, it will be a married woman.
I have literally never heard a man say that about sex, married or not. I have also never heard a single woman say that about sex. As a matter of fact, most unmarried women put a huge priority on sex and never downplay its importance. But a woman who's been monogamously married for many years will often complain that men/women/younger women/people are "obsessed with sex" or "focus too much on sex" or are "all about sex" or "C'mon guys, is sex really that important?!?".
This even applies if it's the same woman in both cases. That unmarried 24 year-old woman will love sex and never downplay its importance, but meet up with her 10 years later, when she's 34 and has been married for seven years, and now if she sees two unmarried guys have a long talk about sex, she'll pipe in, "Geez guys. Is sex really that important?" Interesting that she would have never, ever said anything like that when she was unmarried, single, and dating (and free and happy).
(Side note: This is very likely what you get to look forward to if you decide to get monogamously married to a woman someday. Don't tell me you weren't warned. But yes, yes, that won't happen to you because You Know What You're Doing™ and She's Not Like The Rest™. I know.)
Okay, back to the little research experiment I decided to run.
You may recall that about a year ago I had a poll on this blog asking several questions about happiness in a relationship/marriage vs. the longevity of a relationship/marriage. Once I had a few hundred responses, I shut the poll down. Then I went over to the Talk About Marriage forum, signed up as user OrangeCrush1. I made a few honest posts in a few threads so my post count wouldn't look too low.
Then I posted the exact same poll in that forum's main sub-forum. The thread is right here. The poll asked the exact same questions with the exact same wording as used on this blog, within the character limits of the forum's software. Granted, there were far less votes when I did this on the forum than when I did it here at this blog, but at least there was some data; I'll take what I can get.
So as to not tip my hand, I made sure not to shoot my mouth off in the thread until there had been a decent amount of poll votes. (Once I did, I encountered the usual negative reactions with no actual points.)
Today I'm going to report to you the differences in those two polls, between male red pill manosphere readers and the male and female married (or at least pro-marriage) blue pill folks.
Your first reaction might be something like, "Well duh Blackdragon. Of course we know what manosphere guys will say vs. a bunch of married women. That was a waste of your time." I understand, but consider the following:
Here are the poll results. The percentages below are rounded to the nearest whole number.
Knowing how you are, and how people work in the real world, what to you is the ideal length for a relationship?
Manosphere / Red Pill Readers
Under 3 months: 1%
Under 6 months: 2%
6 months - 3 years: 16%
3 - 7 years: 7%
15 - 25 years: 1%
"The rest of your life": 8%
Whenever your children grow up and move out (regardless of how unhappy you are in the interim): 4%
As soon as I get bored; I don't care how long it is: 11%
As soon as I get unhappy; I don't care how long it is: 47%
Notice that 58% of you said that a relationship should end as soon as you get unhappy or bored. This means you hold personal happiness as a higher priority than the length of some relationship you've entered into. I agree with you. I think forcing yourself to carry on in a relationship where you are clearly bored or unhappy just for the "good of the relationship" is a waste of your life, considering you only live once.
It's also interesting to note that 19% of you believe that the ideal length of a relationship is under 3 years.
Only 8% of you thought "the rest of your life" was ideal. Clearly, the other 92% of you are all evil, selfish, jerkwads. How dare you not conform to societal pressures!
Okay, let's see what the nice, appropriate, societally-programmed people think:
Married / Blue Pill Readers
Under 3 months: 0%
Under 6 months: 0%
6 months - 3 years: 3%
3 - 7 years: 10%
7 - 15 years: 3%
15 - 25 years: 3%
"The rest of your life": 57%
Whenever your children grow up and move out (regardless of how unhappy you are in the interim): 7%
As soon as I get bored; I don't care how long it is: 0%
As soon as I get unhappy; I don't care how long it is: 17%
So the "rest of your life" people comprise 57% of blue pill respondents; no big surprise there. My only surprise was that the 57% wasn't even higher. However, even among blue pill people the evil and selfish happiness-loving people are strongly represented at 17%, and another 13% think the ideal relationship is less than seven years. Interesting. So even among pro-marriage people, there is some strong weakening in Societal Programming. I guess that gives me a little hope. I guess when you see married people all around you getting divorced and cheating on each other, it's hard to justify the bullshit Disney fairy tale.
So there you go. Empirical evidence that pro-monogamy / pro-traditional-marriage people tend to view the length of a relationship as more important than their own personal happiness or the happiness of their spouse. Thank you very much for all who participated. I did it for science. 🙂
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Kurt 2014-10-09 09:18:59
Thanks for this one BD. Fun, entertaining, educational. I'd love to see more of this sort of thing on Red Pill manosphere sites vs. well, what we have now, to put it politely. Question: did you post the comparative results over at that other site for your Blue Pill friends? I'm sure they're curious ;). Remember, Thou Shalt Stir The Pot
Blackdragon 2014-10-09 09:43:26
did you post the comparative results over at that other site for your Blue Pill friends? I’m sure they’re curious ;). Remember, Thou Shalt Stir The PotThat Shalt Stir The Pot, yes, but only when stirring the pot is of tangible benefit. My friends over there would simply explode into hysterics, not make any rational points (because they can't), and nothing would be gained either by them or me. I was temped, but I don't see the value into putting my limited and valuable time into a group of people who will not change their minds (until years later when they get divorced anyway).
Dawson Stone 2014-10-09 09:58:28
This data fascinates me. Can't say I am shocked. I am curious though how much of what people say is simply because it is either what they feel they should say or because if they don't say it, they may have to examine what is true and that scares them…even if unconsciously. I saw stats that only 32% of Americans believe in evolution (2009 Pew Research Poll) but 57% believe in satan (2013 yougov.com survey). Are people really that stupid? I think there is so much societal programming impacting people that the real numbers are much different with even less people on all sides really believing that lifetime commitment is really good/realistic for anyone.
Jon 2014-10-09 10:38:17
I’m so shallow I can only date young dumb womenEven if it were true, I never understood why this was supposed to be an insult. Woman: "Yeah...well...you probably only date 18 year olds who don't know any better." >:( Man: "I know! It's great right!? *high-five* No? Ohhhhhhh, you're saying that's a bad thing. My mistake...."
Kurt 2014-10-09 11:20:36
" was temped, but I don’t see the value into putting my limited and valuable time into a group of people who will not change their minds " Yeah, I guess so. It might be worth the cackle of trollish glee to watch them lose their shit though. More seriously, I think many of them would be surprised by the results. If roughly 1 in 3 don't really think lifetime monogamy is a good thing, that might make more of them look suspiciously across the (chaste, unstained) bedsheets at night and wonder if their partner is as unhappy as they secretly are.
JoshuaTenor 2014-10-09 11:59:24
I think that what effects the responses from many of the married folksis the following: You see, these people have purposely commited themselves to a concept they held in high regard. Once they make that commitment, they feel compelled to defend that choice even when they start to notice things that may indicate their choice could be wrong. And the funny thing is, the more time they invest in their belief, the harder they feel compelled to defend that belief. I believe this phenomenon is covered in psychology but I forget what it's called officially. Anyway, it is really hard for them to give an answer that conflicts with the efforts to which they have commited.
Blackdragon 2014-10-09 12:04:50
It might be worth the cackle of trollish glee to watch them lose their shit though.That's just it. I have no interest in being a troll. I am interested in rational debates with rational adults who make rational points. Anyone else is welcome to post anything they want over there though.
You see, these people have purposely commited themselves to a concept they held in high regard. Once they make that commitment, they feel compelled to defend that choice even when they start to notice things that may indicate their choice could be wrong. And the funny thing is, the more time they invest in their belief, the harder they feel compelled to defend that belief. I believe this phenomenon is covered in psychology but I forget what it’s called officially. Anyway, it is really hard for them to give an answer that conflicts with the efforts to which they have commited.Absolutely correct. When you get defensive, the frontal neocortex of the brain actually shuts down. Higher functions shut down. So when you speak within this state, you're just speaking irrationally and emotionally, not logically or with any basis in reality. That why when I say long-term monogamy sucks, single guys or guys in very long-term mono relationships usually agree with me, but guys in relatively new relationships or marriages tear their hair out and lose their shit.
DonPheromon 2014-10-09 12:29:05
The observation Joshua Tenor made is spot on. It's called The Law Of Dissonance which stipulates that people always respond/behave in ways that are consistent with their beliefs and highly held values......otherwise they feel discomfort and ill ate ease with themselves.... That perhaps is why you got the results you got BD. Those pro-marriage guys responded they way they did because they had to defend what they felt was a right decision in their eyes even though in reality it's not so. But like you said......one isn't exactly surprised.
Jay Sauce 2014-10-10 08:23:54
Geez guys. Is sex really that important? There it's now been said. Single, male, 32. Never married, never will be. No kids. I'm just not that interested in sex anymore.
JoshuaTenor 2014-10-10 09:07:24
I wanted to address Jay Sauce's comment: "Geez guys. Is sex really that important? There it’s now been said. Single, male, 32. Never married, never will be. No kids. I’m just not that interested in sex anymore." I've actually heard a guy or two say this, but it's a rare occurance. Now, even for me the interest level may have decreased a little from when I was younger, but sex is definitely still important to me, even during the times I'm not getting it... or not getting it with whom I would like to. Me? I'm a single male in a long term relationship, was married once. I have one kid.
Blackdragon 2014-10-10 11:18:02
There is an immense difference between not wanting sex and getting visibly defensive, confused, or upset when people around you talk about sex. You guys are talking about the former, I'm talking about the latter. I too know a small number of men who don't want or like sex. I have never seen these men, or any man, react with defensiveness or confusion when other people talk about dating or sex. But have have seen many women do this. Married ones.
Dale P. 2014-10-10 15:49:07
This is very interesting research and great to read. To me, it seems to highlight the female need for security over all else (including one's own happiness). They would rather be in an unhappy relationship than no relationship at all, especially in older age.
Blackdragon 2014-10-10 19:26:37
To me, it seems to highlight the female need for security over all else (including one’s own happiness). They would rather be in an unhappy relationship than no relationship at all, especially in older age.Correct! I would love to have done a survey like this but with just blue pill women. Imagine what the numbers would have looked like then!
Mih 2014-10-10 23:48:19
I think that the way you phrased the question implies that you are talking about monogamous relationships. So when you factor in the level of happiness of many short relationships versus a very long one you have to take into account the heartbreak of separation and the period of sadness after a breakup plus retraining your mind to "go get some". So that brings the level of happiness down for the serial monogamy way. So for some people it is very alluring to put some effort into making the shitty relationship work.
funfunfun 2014-10-11 21:23:31
"I think that what effects the responses from many of the married folksis the following: "You see, these people have purposely commited themselves to a concept they held in high regard. Once they make that commitment, they feel compelled to defend that choice even when they start to notice things that may indicate their choice could be wrong. And the funny thing is, the more time they invest in their belief, the harder they feel compelled to defend that belief. I believe this phenomenon is covered in psychology but I forget what it’s called officially. Anyway, it is really hard for them to give an answer that conflicts with the efforts to which they have commited." -- The mistake this commenter makes is that EVERYTHING is programming. People thinking that they need to have sex to "be a man" is just as much societal programming as the concept of marriage. Yes, everyone has a sex drive, but I've not had sex for long periods of time and been just as happy - if not more so - than when I was banging someone. Don't hate on the marriage crowd so much (for being societally brainwashed) because you have to look in the mirror and you'll see your own brainwashing.
Blackdragon 2014-10-11 21:31:20
Don’t hate on the marriage crowd so much (for being societally brainwashed) because you have to look in the mirror and you’ll see your own brainwashing.Brainwashing is fine as long as it doesn't make you unhappy. For example, the problem isn't low sex drive married people who never have sex and don't mind. The problem is the normal and high sex drive people in a marriage where they suffer because their sexual needs aren't met. And those married people far outnumber the non-sexual married people. Programming isn't the issue. Happiness is.
POB 2014-10-15 07:52:49
Being almost 35, single, having a collection of ex's (and drama) and at this very moment sharing my bed with a variety of women and living one of the most amazing times of my life I get a lot of this: - It's time for you to settle 'cause soon you'll be turning 40!!! (OMG I'll be sooooo old when I turn 40, maybe I should grab a shotgun and blow my brains out) - Are you gonna be single forever? (Yep, what's the big deal?) - You haven't found THE ONE™ yet! (I've found MANY TIMES, it always ended like shit) - Don't you wanna have kids??? (I do and I will and I won't be married when the time comes) And my personal favorite - Don't you wanna know someone for real, like really get to know someone, share your feelings and emotions and shit? (I do this ALL THE TIME with women I sleep, sometimes even with casual FBs, and I see married people (women mostly) holdin' A LOT back from their "lifetime" partners). So I ask: Why do I have to change anything if i'm happy the way things are right now?
JoshuaTenor 2014-10-15 10:05:36
LM 2014-10-16 01:25:50
Found this post online earlier: 'My wife and I met at 19, married at 23 and we're 26 now. Two months ago she stopped shaving her pussy. She's had it shaved since the day we met I asked her wtf cuz' I don't like bush on anyone. She told me that if I loved her it shouldn't matter what her business looks like.' Thought immediately of this blog!
Sparks 2014-10-16 11:48:43
@POB I get all those questions as well. My general response is 'none of your business' whilst wearing a shit-eating grin. People (especially other married people) can't stand to see a late 30's man enjoying the single non-monagamous life and want them to join them in married misery, I mean bliss.
Leopard 2014-10-29 08:11:45
Short-term monogamy is just fine as long as I get unhappy with the relationship. Usually under 3 months.
Leopard 2014-10-29 08:12:35
as soon as*
Leopard 2014-10-29 08:14:40
Oh fuck, you understood what I mean. I'm not a native english speaker.
Jack 2016-05-05 07:48:20
Honestly I think the results will be skewed because you used the term "ideal" length. I imagine, especially in such a place as that one, which is filled with idealists, their automatic thought is that the "ideal" is a unicorn woman and unicorn man meet and live happily ever after, so "ideal length" kind of implies, that if everything about you and your partner were perfect, you would get a perfect result. I'm completely on your side of reality on this one, but I have to admit, a lifelong relationship would be pretty good, if neither person ever gave each other drama, their love did nothing but increase, nobody cheated and nobody got bored. I'd be interested to see it reworded as something along the lines of "at what point do you feel it's healthy for a relationship to end/move on?" 1. Never, for any reason, 2. I'm bored 3. I'm unhappy 4. I'm unhappy and the kids are grown, etc.
M1ch 2016-08-17 03:09:27
Soon she will be bragging (or at least heavily implying) that she is the most successful person, in terms of relationships, than anyone else in the group. Why? Because she’s been married for 14 years and hasn’t gotten divorced (yet). Everyone else in the group is either single, dating, divorced, or newly married. So she “wins.Well, obedience must be rewarded. Society rewards obedience to it, and what better reward than making the obedient feel they are... winning something :D.
M1ch 2016-08-17 03:12:56
(It’s interesting to note that most married men tend to not defend marriage like this…but that’s a topic for another time.)Yes, still, they keep running into legal marriage like ants into sugar. (And usually accept their new mate's requests to marry once they are divorced once.)
ydia eivye 2016-08-17 03:30:47
Absolutely correct. When you get defensive, the frontal neocortex of the brain actually shuts down. Higher functions shut down. So when you speak within this state, you’re just speaking irrationally and emotionally, not logically or with any basis in reality.Well that happens when the deep mind knows their counterpart is in the right, and no fact-complying argument can be opposed to what they stated :D. It's deeply deeply wired an evolutionary feature.
Vincent 2017-02-07 04:45:48
I'll also say "Geez, is sex really that important." I'm 44, married, kids, been lurking here for a while because I'm not happy with the current situation. What happened in my case is that I found out the wife was using sex as a currency, a "reward" - something I notice everywhere. Think of all the sitcoms where the "girl" tells the "guy" that "he's sleeping on the couch tonight!" as a punishment for doing something "wrong". This hugely turned me off, and I decided to ask myself the question "is sex really that important". A word of warning for guys reading this who are about my age, hope it's useful. When young people do the "no-fap challenge", it helps and will build up libido. Above a certain age, this is a "dangerous" experiment. I now understand how monks in monasteries can live without sex: your body just gets used to it, and libido decreases. It can be a permanent effect. At first, my wife seemed "pleasantly surprised" at the change, then came a phase of "Oops this is not what I intended" and now we're in a phase of "living together without sex", and the subject basically never comes up. When she's in the mood (which is rare but happens), I'll give her my full attention and make her cum, but am not interested in anything else. What is also quite surprising is that I get *much* more "game" now, from quite hot VYW (under half my age). I'm never following up on it because I haven't had "The Talk" with my wife yet, but I attribute it to *genuine* outcome-independence. Because honestly, I don't care if I end up having sex or not. These VYW confide in me, send out signals, and seem genuinely puzzled that I switch the subject away from their hot story about that adventure they had last weekend with this other girl. I can hear the other forum members cringe at me wasting "opportunities", and I have decided that I should indeed stop doing that. I bought the "open marriage" ebook and am reading it with much interest. I'll keep you posted. But back to the original topic: Even if you think "geez, is sex really that important", there's a lot to be learned. It doesn't have to be about scoring as much sex as possible from as many different women as possible. If there's no sex, I won't go home and masturbate using my bitter tears as lube. I shrug and go do something which interests me instead.
Blackdragon 2017-02-07 12:33:05
If there’s no sex, I won’t go home and masturbate using my bitter tears as lube. I shrug and go do something which interests me instead.Read this. You're doing what most monogamous married men do; making excuses for why sex isn't that important to you instead of making changes in your life so you'll be happier.
Vincent 2017-02-07 23:06:46
I have read it, and I am aware about the importance. Not every man's road to enlightenment is the same 🙂 Mine started by me refusing to accept "sex as a reward for good behavior on my part", and went via "if you don't want it, I don't want it" to "if you don't want it, I don't want it with you." (This, incidentally, is why I struggle with some of your other posts where you respond to the "I'm not your hooker" speech with "It is your job to have sex with your guy". I would say "if you honestly see this as a job - then never mind, I'll find an amateur instead.") I see that there's a long road ahead of me with very interesting and beautiful vistas, and I'm going to enjoy it. The main point of my (first) post here was to warn other readers: When you're above a certain age, stopping having sex does not only have "mental" repercussions - there are physiological ones as well. Your body will simply stop craving it. This may even be irreversible. At first you may think "Well that's not so bad - one less thing to worry about." After all, if you don't crave it, who cares whether you get it? By the time you realize that this is a bad idea, it may be difficult to realign.
Blackdragon 2017-02-07 23:29:12
Not every man’s road to enlightenment is the sameWe're not talking about enlightenment. I'm not a Buddhist monk and neither are you. We're talking about physical health and long-term masculine happiness. Neither are likely if you're never having sex. (Maybe you understand that, maybe you don't; it's hard to tell with you.)
Mine started by me refusing to accept “sex as a reward for good behavior on my part”, and went via “if you don’t want it, I don’t want it” to “if you don’t want it, I don’t want it with you.”That's perfectly fine if you're having sex with someone else on the side. Otherwise you're just pouting; choosing celibacy or jerking off to porn instead of fucking her looks horribly unattractive to her and makes sex with her in the future even less likely.
The main point of my (first) post here was to warn other readers: When you’re above a certain age, stopping having sex does not only have “mental” repercussions – there are physiological ones as well. Your body will simply stop craving it. This may even be irreversible.It's not irreversible. I promise you that if you ever have sex with a super hot 22 year-old, you will suddenly "discover" that you're a horny man once again. And one fuck is all it will take. Try it and you'll see. I hope all you men who are looking to become monogamous someday are reading Vincent's posts very carefully. This is what you're looking at if your monogamous marriage is "successful," i.e. it lasts a long time without any divorce or cheating.
Vincent 2017-02-08 04:42:06
That’s perfectly fine if you’re having sex with someone else on the side. Otherwise you’re just pouting; choosing celibacy or jerking off to porn instead of fucking her looks horribly unattractive to her and makes sex with her in the future even less likely.I'm not having sex with others on the side (yet) since I didn't have The Talk yet. I'm about half-way through your book. Maybe I should have waited with posting until I finished it. The point is that I don't really care whether I'll have sex with her in the future. I suggested an open marriage to her on several occasions. Her reaction was, quite literally, "eww - why would I want to have sex with another guy." I left it at that. I don't think she's cheating either - I honestly think she's fine with the situation as it is. What I meant by "enlightenment" is the realization that it doesn't have to be this way, and that I'm taking steps to change it. I hope there's a section in the book on overcoming the "but you're married" objection, which I have actually already encountered from several obviously interested VYWs (although I wouldn't have slept with them anyway). I suspect that most men claiming to be in an open marriage, have wives who know nothing about that fact 🙂
Gil Galad 2017-02-08 06:07:20
I suggested an open marriage to her on several occasions. Her reaction was, quite literally, “eww – why would I want to have sex with another guy.” I left it at that.Why did you leave it at that ? If your account of her reaction is accurate, then all you had to do was say "fine, i'll sleep with other chicks and you can choose to sleep or not to sleep with other guys", and you had your open marriage. You say you don't care about sex; was your sex drive higher early in your marriage and before your marriage ? If it was, it's extremely unlikley that you've just "adapted", that kind of flexibility is very rare. As BD told you, go have sex a few times with a hot chick and then you can decide what is what. I don't have anything in particular against asexual or quasi-asexual people, but it has to be honest, otherwise you're just a normal guy doing himself a huge disservice. If your testosterone is much lower than it used to be then that could explain a diminished sex drive, but low T means a whole bunch of problems down the line.
Vincent 2017-02-08 08:50:11
Why did you leave it at that ? If your account of her reaction is accurate, then all you had to do was say “fine, i’ll sleep with other chicks and you can choose to sleep or not to sleep with other guys”, and you had your open marriage.True, and I wish I did. I was "confused" at the time, and I actually honestly suggested it for her. I had lost almost all interest in sex and I thought it'd only be fair. I thought my lack of libido is what happens normally after X years of marriage, when the lust "wears off". I had already learned that women's libido increases with age, but by then I just wasn't turned on by having sex "on her terms". I will gladly admit that this is partially caused by spite on my end. "You turned me down when I was needing it; and it's too late now." It was also partly "experiment" to see whether I really needed it so badly. Either I don't, or I did a good job fooling myself. My sex drive was indeed (much) higher in the past. I agree with the "just try it" assessment. I realized that my interest in sex wasn't really gone once some of these VYW told me, in these exact words (but not in English :-)) that she wanted my dick. It's been a while since I heard that, and it was an interesting eye-opener. But first, I'll finish the book and try not to screw it up when I bring up the subject again. At least I'll know more clearly what I want and how I'm going to get it. Thanks for the replies!
Blackdragon 2017-02-08 12:40:43
Finish the book, then get out into the real world and do what it recommends. If you still have questions at that point, let me know. Right now you're just living in your own head.
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