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Spending Money On Women
Lately in the comments and in my email, the topic of when it is, or is not, appropriate to spend money on women has arisen. Today I'm going to discuss the issue of spending money on women in order to have sex with them the first time, within a dating or seduction context. I will not be discussing spending money on women in ongoing relationships, which is a very different topic (though I will cover that in a future post here).
-By Caleb Jones
As always, we need to get our definitions straight. In this article, when I say "spending money on women," I'm talking about spending more money than the typical Alpha Male / PUA would spend on two dates or less in order to have sex with a new hot woman.
For example, about 30% of all my first-time lays cost me literally zero dollars other than the small cost of gas to and from the date locations. Most of the time when I do spend money, I'm spending less than about $17 grand total between both of my dates (again, not including gas), since as most of you know, I have sex with new women under a two-date, 3-4-hour total face-time meet-to-sex model.
I think spending a little money on gas (or similar transportation) plus buying a woman a drink or two, maybe an appetizer or side salad at the most, in order to have sex with her within a few hours is just fine. I don't consider that "spending money on women." So for the purposes of this article, "spending money on women" is anything more than that. If you have to take a woman out on two or three full-on dinner dates, that's definitely spending money as I define it here. If you have to rent a hotel room to have sex with her the first time, that is also spending money as defined here. If you have to pay her cash under a hooker or sugar daddy arrangement, that's also definitely spending money as I define it here. You get the idea.
Now that we have a definition, let's discuss when it's okay and not okay. When Spending Money On Women Is Unacceptable
While there are two exceptions to this we'll cover in a minute, spending money on women is unacceptable if you have no other way of getting laid. If your game, confidence, or physical appearance is so terrible that you literally can't have sex with a new cute woman without throwing cash, gifts, or expensive dinners at her, this is unacceptable, and you are a beta. Period, end of story, no excuses. If this is you, either surrender to being a beta, or else come to a complete stop and improve yourself as a man. Improve your appearance. Lose weight (or gain muscle if you're super skinny). Improve your wardrobe. Work on your confidence and outcome independence. Learn game. Bottom line, improve. You're in a very, very bad life position if the only way you can have new sex is by paying for it.
Now before some of you blow up your keyboards by telling me I'm completely wrong, I admit there are two exceptions to this rule and will explain both.
The first exception to this rule is if you are so old that improving your appearance really isn't an option. If you're 87 years old and are bent over and wrinkly, and want to fuck a hot 25 year-old, then I agree that improving your appearance probably isn't going to cut it no matter how hard you work at it (though I still think you should do it for happiness and lifestyle reasons).
So fine, if you're that old and disgusting, there's no problem with you throwing money around to get laid. Someday I will be 120 years old and (might) look like shit, and I may have to do this myself at that point. I do admit that with some super old guys, improving appearance to the point where you can fuck women 50 years younger than you with zero money spent probably isn't an option.
The second exception to this rule is if you are ridiculously wealthy and money is no object. What is "ridiculously wealthy?" I consider that a net worth of $10 million or more.
If you are literally worth $10 million or close to it, and see no point in learning game, and find it easier to make it rain $100 bills on cute girls while cruising around on your yacht, then fine, I see no problem with this if that lifestyle makes you happy. You've got money to burn, go ahead and burn it, god bless.
Now remember, dammit! I said $10 million or more. If you're worth $2 million or whatever because you have a nice house you've paid off, you're not included in this exception, and I still think it's very bad if you can't get laid without throwing money at women. I say this because I know there are some older guys who read this blog who are worth about $1 million or a little more, because of a paid-off house or decent retirement account, but are no where near $10 million in net worth. No excuses for you guys. You need to improve your game/appearance/confidence if you can't get laid without throwing money at women. I hate to say this, but being worth $1 million is not "rich," not with today's inflation. (Don't get me started on a political rant about corporatism or the Federal Reserve.)
Okay, that covers when spending money on women is unacceptable. Now let's switch gears and discuss when spending money on women becomes much less black and white and is more a matter of opinion. When Spending Money Might Be Acceptable Depending On Your Circumstances
Let's say that you don't have to spend money in order to have sex with new women, beyond the minuscule expenses I described above. Let's say that you've worked on your game/appearance/confidence enough where you can get laid reasonably fast, with at least reasonably cute chicks, without spending more than about $20-$30 or so (ideally zero).
First of all, congratulations. You are an Alpha Male and a badass no matter how much money you choose to spend on women at this point. Even if we disagree on how much money you choose to spend on women, you have my respect. (If you are not at this point yet, you have more research to do and more practice to put in. Stop being a lazy beta and get to work. If you have no idea where to begin, start right here.)
So if you can get laid without spending money, does it make sense to start spending money on women to improve your speed to sex or quality of women?
Speaking very generally, the answer is yes, assuming two things:
1. You honestly want to do this and are not doing it from a sense of desperation.
2. You make plenty of money above and beyond your monthly bills and can easily afford it without screwing anything up in your financial life or going one penny into debt.
If either of the above two things are untrue, you're venturing into a danger zone by spending money on women, and I think you need to reconsider right now. But if the above are both true, I have no problem with it. Let's proceed.
How Much To Spend
Assuming all the above is true, the next issue is about how much to spend. What amount is appropriate? How much is too much? How much is too little?
The answer is: There is no objectively right or wrong answer to this question.
For many years now, all over the manosphere and PUAverse, I've seen guys really lose their shit over disagreeing about what specific amounts are for "AFCs," "betas," or "pussies" vs. what amounts are "smart because they save time." Guys on both sides get really pissed about this and it's very stupid. All of these guys are wrong, because there is no objective right or wrong numerical amount you should spend on women, and anyone bitching on blogs or forums that there is a "right" amount and everyone else is "wrong" is flat out incorrect now matter how loud he screams (again, within the context of all the items above we've already discussed).
1. How much money you make or have.
2. How busy you are.
3. How extroverted or introverted you are.
4. Whether you're a Thrill of the Hunt man or Pleasure of Sex man.
5. The age of the women you prefer, or more specifically, the age difference between you and them.
6. The part of the world you live in.
7. How frugal you are.
8. Your sexual and relationship goals.
All eight of these factors are going to drive the appropriate amount of money up or down based on your personal situation and personality. It's up to YOU, and no one else. I'll give you my example of how I've determined this for myself. Again, this is only an example to show you my thought process as I go through the above eight factors; I am not describing what is "right," since all of us are different.
I am a very busy, higher-income, 42 year-old man, who hates spending money because of a frugal INTJ personality and a financially poor upbringing that, for better or worse, still rolls around in my subconscious. I am also introverted and an extreme Pleasure of Sex man, who hates going to parties, events, and clubs (with or without women). I'd rather go see a movie or be cozy at home and have sex. I live in the United States, in the Pacific Northwest. These days, I love having sex with women ages 21 to about 55 as long as they're trim and hot, but avoid cold approaching women over age 33 for reasons I've discussed before. I have extremely strong game and confidence, and can easily have sex with hot new women under age 33 within 3 or 4 hours total face-time-to-sex by spending less than $20 pretty much whenever I want. My goal with women is always to have long-term FBs and MLTRs with every woman I have sex with. I hate one night stands and short-term relationships and never do them if I can avoid them.
Okay, that's me. You may be radically different, so remember that. Based on my situation, here is my thought process: I can have sex with new women for virtually free, but it does take me three, sometimes four hours of face time, in addition to some (but not much) time sending out copy and paste openers on dating sites. I'm a time management nerd and time is very important to me, so the faster to the sex, the better.
If I wanted to drop this 3.5 hour average to 5 minutes, could just pay a hooker. That would be a perfectly valid thing to do at my income level and with my time management goals. However, with my hatred of spending money, and my goal of having long-lasting FBs or MLTRs with women, hookers aren't an option for me. Other higher income guys who love one night stands and think 5 minute meet-to-sex times are awesome will have no problem paying hookers. Totally fine; that works for them. See how this works? But let's continue.
My next option would be to drop my 3.5 hour meet-to-sex times to perhaps 1-2 hours by going to the sugar daddy sites and start slapping down $50, $100, $150 or more in cash and/or more expensive dates to do a sugar baby. Frankly, I wouldn't even have to use sugar daddy sites for this, since there are plenty of hot, young gold diggers on OKCupid, POF, Match, and within my own female social circle whom this would work for. I have run into many of these women on my dating adventures.
(I have had sex with women from sugar daddy sites without spending any money on them, but zero-cost sugar daddy game is an advanced level of game, is just as time consuming as normal online game if not more so, has several downsides, and is a topic for another time.)
So why not pay some sugar babies? At my income level I could afford this with no problem, and it would certainly increase my speed to sex. But I hate spending money with a passion, and we have that darn long-term FB/MLTR goal that I have. Spending $100 to fuck a hottie one time is literally useless to me, since I want something long-term with every woman I sleep with, even if it's just an inconsistent FB. And I'm sure as hell not going to whip out $100 every time I want to have sex with someone. Again, I might as well just pay a hooker if that's the case.
So at the moment, for me, I choose not to do this. 3.5 hours isn't a lot of time, and $0-$20 to bring a new woman into my life is pretty damn awesome to me. I have also never seen a field-tested, reliable, and repeatable method of creating a very low-cost, long-term FB or MLTR relationship resulting from paying a sugar baby for first-time sex. (If I ever see one, I will definitely try it out. So far I have not seen one.)
As I get older or more busy, I may change my mind about this. It's entirely possible, but so far, I don't feel the need to go the sugar daddy route (beyond a few experiments I've run). Other higher income guys may think sugar daddy game is the greatest thing in the world. That works for them.
So for the time being, I'll stick with my super low-cost, 3.5 hours meet-to-sex system. I worked very hard to develop that system, since I was very unhappy when I was working under a 10-12 hour meet-to-sex system, like most beta males, back in 2007. What I have works. For me. Would you prefer that, or would you rather spend more money? Depends on the factors we discussed above.
So there you go. Meet the minimum requirements of being able to get laid without spending money on women, and then determine a proper amount based on your personal and unique circumstances. If you strongly disagree with anything said above and want to debate me on it, notify me in the comments (or send me an email) and I will add you to the Great Blackdragon Debate topic list.
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Diggy 2014-10-19 08:00:21
A. I disagree on the if youre rich you can spend money on a women. I dont know... call me old fashion but I dont pitch the bitch. B. I buy lunch/dinner for everyone... Guy, girls, friends, strangers. This was the way I was brought up. With okcupid or POF our first meet is almost always coffee/drink but Ive been know to buy a nice dinner on a first date. I look at it this way... I want a nice dinner. Im going to the restaurant I want to go to. She can join me if she wants to... I find this to still be alpha. But I do spend money on them...but I would do the same to anyone. BD, If youre ever in Denver, Co.... Lunch is on me 😉 C. You left out the long term effects of spending money on women. I think the overall idea is that paying for women sets a bad presidence. The more guys that spend money on women the more women that expect that every time!
Mr 2014-10-19 08:20:02
Hey. Ive not been buying women anything on dates. I just arrive a bit early, do that i allready have my drink and look comfortable where i sit. Maybe Even chat with the waitress. I know im supposed to arrive a few mins late, but this works well for my economy. I live in norway and a cup of coffe is 4 - 5$ and thats 40 - 50$ in 10 days and about 150 in a month. If i have to buy for both, thats 300$. A beer here, is about 12 - 13$ and a drink is about 18 - 19$. And many women dont drink a normal coffe. They drink some special kind of suggary bullsht that goes for about 12$. If i go on a date everyday for a month, then there are the combos ill have to pay: Both have a beer: 750$ Both have a drink: 1110$ And the most common. I have coffe and she had BS-drink: 510$ I just cant seem to spend these amoubt som drinks with women. So, Blackdragon. Do you this i can still come a bit early, so that she had to buy the drink herself. I personally think i pull this off very well, where i just chill out and she comes into "my world".
DonPheromon 2014-10-19 09:59:43
While I don't necessarily disagree with BD's almost extreme tightwadness as far as spending money on chiqs is concerned, I personally wouldn't go that far. I think that spending money on women(irrespective of the amount) can either be an attraction booster or a loser move depending on the atmosphere/frame within which it is done. IMO, the reason why there's so much stigma around spending money on women generally is that most guys fuck it up. They do it from a "I'm spending all this dough on you and I expect you to repay by having sex with me" perspective. They look at it as a biz transaction whereby they spend the dough, and the lady repays sexually. Ladies pick up on this vibe and get turned off/irritated by it. OTOH, if during the initial approach/seduction process, one clearly communicates a "Hey, I can't be pressured by you or any other lady for that matter to spend money to have your attention. I may or may not spend money with zero consequences whatsoever" frame, then I think one is on a better footing. Even if later in the interaction, you decide to buy her a drink or whatsoever because you feel she has earned it, she wouldn't perceive it as you trying to buy her favors, then it could be an attraction booster. Again, so few guys can pull this off correctly. The frame/context within which the spending is done determines how it is interpreted.
10x10 2014-10-19 10:28:55
When you pay no money on dates either for regular online game or sugar daddy game are these text based seductions? As in you just run attraction and comfort material online and then invite them directly to your house? With no money spent there can't be any venues I'm guessing (walk in the park?).
Steve 2014-10-19 10:37:24
You got my attention with your confession that you are a fellow INTJ. We are known as a frosty, inscrutable and rational lot and that makes me even more inquisitive as to how you succeed with the fickle and emotional sex. Discuss.
POB 2014-10-19 10:47:11
I have one simple rule that works wonders for me: 1) in my town it's only coffee, a juice or a cold drink (if the day is hot) 2) traveling about U$30-50 for both, should it be drinks or dinner, cause I'm on vacation and not worrying too much about money
Smith 2014-10-19 11:29:59
I have been using BD's two date model for almost a full year and it's been very efficient. I'm a student, 20 yrs, so being frugal in my case is rarely frowned upon. Dinner at my place for the second but asking her to bring some wine or salad.
Dawson Stone 2014-10-19 11:35:32
@BD There is much here I agree with but some key things I feel are missing as well as a fundamental mis-understanding of how to properly use Sugar Daddy Dating (SDD) sites and more importantly WHY to use them. As a bit of background on my experience and how I have come to the conclusions I have come to, I have been on well over 1,000 first online dates since I got divorced. I have been on Matchmaker.com, POF, True.com, Match.com, OKCupid, eHarmony.com and a number of other ones here and there. I have been divorced for 13 years and for the first 6+ years I used exclusively non-SDD sites to meet women. For about 2 years after that I used a combination of traditional dating sites and SDD sites. For the past 4+ years I have used exclusively SDD sites. First let's talk about goals. My goals are different in that I don't have an outcome in mind where as you have stated yours is to add every women you meet as a long-term (although you didn't define a length of time) FB or MLTR. I might see a particular women one night or see her for a year or two. My GOAL isn't to have any women for a particular period of time. I would argue it makes it harder to remain outcome independent desiring a particular outcome from any particular women. My goal is to have sex with any woman that I meet with and to only have sex with women I find EXTREMELY attractive with as little cost and drama as possible. If the sex is good, the girl fun and interesting and she isn't after my money then I am happy to add her to my rotation for as long as those things remain true and not a second longer. My rotation is usually 6-10 women plus I get at least one boomerang a month who aren't really in my rotation but they are women I know from before. I don't separate costs out by seduction versus relationships because it is irrelevant to me. Women cost me a certain amount of money per year and how it is spent doesn't matter to me in the slightest. What does matter is quality and lack of drama. That is my focus. Now in order for your math to work ($17 per woman) it would mean that 100% of the time (or pretty damn close to it) when you meet a women you will: A) Close every woman 100% of the time B) Want to close her (meaning she is attractive enough) C) Want to continue to see her on an ongoing basis. I know you use a two meeting system so I assume you screen out the Bs on your first meeting but are those zero cost? If not, you should include all the first meeting costs where you aren't attracted enough to her in your overall costs. You must additionally include all costs associated with anyone that you get to a second date with and cannot close. I am guessing even Blackdragon doesn't bat 1,000. I also know from your other comments on previous posts that you do not ask for additional pics from most of the women you meet online before you meet. In my experience (hundreds of dates on traditional dating sites) that without additional pics (and even with them) there is a significant percent of the time where when I meet a women she simply isn't attractive enough to have sex with once, let alone on a regular basis. Conservatively this was 50% for me. Now I admit to be VERY VERY picky but even if it was 25% that is additional cost and MORE importantly wasted time…money I can make more of. Time I cannot. I would be curious to know how your math and time pencils out when you include ALL costs and ALL your time and not just the time and costs associated with the ones you end up adding to your FBs/MLTRs. The other thing you don't cover is vacations or other activities that might be more fun with a woman as your companion. As I put in a pervious comment, the 18-22 year olds I date cannot possible afford to go on the kind of trips I go on or afford the types of activities that I might do. As an example, I am spending the first week of November in Cancun with a stunning 20 year old that works two jobs and goes to school. She is a great girl and has been in my out-of-town rotation for the past 5 months. Zero chance she could pay her share. In your world this would leave my options as 1) go with a 30-something that isn't nearly as hot but can afford it 2) don't go on the trip or 3) go alone. As a guy with a decent income that is a no-brainer for me. Now let me move on SDD and why it is far and away a superior method assuming a guy is reasonably high value (let's call it the top third of the food chain in intrinsic value). If you are jobless, ugly, over 70, extremely overweight, etc. my approach won't work. More details here ) but the gist is below. The two biggest issues with meeting women on tradition sites is: 1. Misleading Pics. On traditional dating sites women LIE about their pics. I have literally seen everything you can imagine from pics that are just incredibly flattering to pics they scanned in from a magazine to pics of their younger, hotter sister and everything in between. Since I am a nice guy I ended up wasting countless hours with women that I would never even consider fucking once let alone dating. 2. Wants a Relationship. When a women meets you on an online dating site and you have your shit together (decent job, decent looks, don’t sound like an asshole, etc.) you are automatically put into the “relationship material” box…a box you do NOT want to be in. The SDD sites fix both of these problems (and to my mind these are the only problems of online dating). The misleading picture problem is resolved because a women’s currency on a SDD site is her looks and therefore she is much less likely to be misleading. In my experience, so long as I use some simple screening techniques to sift through the “catfishers” nearly all the women I meet look like their pics and honestly quite a few look better (which almost NEVER happens on sites like Match.com or OKC). The second problem is also resolved because this isn’t a site about finding a husband/wife but for finding an arrangement. An “arrangement” can mean many things but for nearly everyone it doesn’t mean marriage or a serious relationship so there is no “relationship material” box to put you in. Of course you can work around these issues with game and the proper frame but it takes TIME and energy I would rather not expend unless I have no other option…and I do. The other nice aspects of SDD sites is that the women on there are predisposed to be with an older guy. I have VERY rarely had anyone have an issue with my age and I am nearly 50-years-old. And of course there are women on the site that want (or might even insist) that you pay their bills if you want to be with them. Especially if you are 65, fat and bald. I would argue nearly any woman you meet would be happy to let you pay her bills if you offer to. Of course I do not offer and in fact I make it VERY clear in my profile I won't be anyone's ATM. When excluding out-of-town women my CPO is under $15. I would put my numbers up against ANYONE's. Now on to the time aspect of the equation. I disagree that regular online dating is nearly as efficient as SDD. My first date close rate is ~85% (it was 90% in September) and my MEDIAN time to close is under 2 hours. My MEAN time to close is under an hour. What I "sell" to the women I see is lifestyle, excitement and wisdom. In general I agree that I would be willing to spend more money for a women I have deeper feelings for, have dated for longer and whom I trust more. The 20-year-old I mentioned above is a great example. She is benefiting from my lifestyle and all it is actually costing me is her plane ticket to the resort and perhaps a sexy bikini to wear for me. The rest I was going to pay for on my own vacation anyway. The excitement part is usually in the sexual realm. Tonight is a perfect example. I have a beautiful 21-year-old that is the spitting image of Anne Hathaway only with nicer boobs. Her profile indicates she wants a guy to pay her an allowance of $3,000 a month. I am paying her ZERO but I am making her my sexual submissive which she has been looking for without even realizing it. I helped her figure it out. The wisdom part is key to all the women I date. The women in my rotation come to me for advice on everything under the sun. What to major in for college, how to reconnect with their dad, what job they should pursue and how to go about it, how to raise money for a new business, how to negotiate for a raise, etc. etc. etc. I also share my thoughts on philosophy, free will, religion, send them videos to watch and lend them books. Most of the women I date use the word "oasis" for their time with me. Now let me move onto one of the most important aspects of why SDD is far superior to traditional online dating sites. DESTINATION dates. Here is a recent post I did on two gorgeous women I met while traveling to see some friends at the end of a business trip. My CPO was $40 to sexy with two VERY good looking women. I have tried to use traditional sites to line up out-of-town talent and it is very, very difficult. I am able to do it with SDD over 80% of the time with very little time investment. I am like you in that I hate to hit bars or clubs to meet girls. In fact I never do that. It is a waste of time, energy and money. At the end of the day it is about personal choice but your point of view that doing SDD is expensive is simply dead wrong. At least the way I do it. Let me repeat, my CPO excluding out-of-town women is UNDER $15. Any guy that thinks that is too much money to have sex with young beautiful women isn't thinking it through. AND my time investment is significantly lower. Let me add that if I wanted to, at least 60-70% of these women would be happy to date me in a traditional relationship. I simply am not interested in that.
Blackdragon 2014-10-19 12:17:30
@Diggy You say:
You left out the long term effects of spending money on women. I think the overall idea is that paying for women sets a bad presidence. The more guys that spend money on women the more women that expect that every time!But also say:
But I do spend money on themI find it funny how all of us, including myself, justify our own “rules” about this issue. It’s interesting.
If i go on a date everyday for a month, then there are the combos ill have to pay:But dude, are you seriously going to go out on 30 dates a month? These days most my blitzes result in less than 4 first dates (most of which I have sex with) and I only do that twice a year at most.
When you pay no money on dates either for regular online game or sugar daddy game are these text based seductions? As in you just run attraction and comfort material online and then invite them directly to your house?No. It’s very rare that a woman on a first date comes right to my house. Instead the zero-cost first dates are usually at a coffee shop, deli, or non-waited bar where neither of us order anything. I’ve also had many first dates at coffee shops or even restaurants where she doesn’t order anything and I order a small milkshake or something for myself, because at those places you have to order something.
With no money spent there can’t be any venues I’m guessing (walk in the park?).That too. I have had many “walk in the park” first dates that cost me zero dollars that resulted in sex on date 2. When the weather is nice, they’re awesome. Though most my zero-cost dates were at coffee shops or similar.
You got my attention with your confession that you are a fellow INTJ. We are known as a frosty, inscrutable and rational lot and that makes me even more inquisitive as to how you succeed with the fickle and emotional sex.The entire way I go about getting sex quickly is very systematic. I treat my dating life like a business; minimum input, maximum output. 🙂
Dinner at my place for the second but asking her to bring some wine or salad.GREAT idea. @Dawson - Again, please pick ONE thing to disagree with me on and stick with that ONE thing. If you start going into your argue-just-to-argue mode I won’t be responding, and if you really push it I'll have to take further action. Also, I’ve been very lenient with you regarding both your argumentative nature and your marketing your site in my comments. In the future, please keep your comments here very brief and stop posting links. Thanks in advance. This is my last friendly warning. To your point, you’re correct in that there are some first dates I have that might cost me $5-$17 that do not result in sex, therefore bringing my cost average up for “successful” dates. My batting average is pretty high though; well over 70% of my first dates these days result in sex with the woman at some point. Sometimes my blitzes do indeed have a 100% first-date-to-sex ratio. To the rest of your points, you look at this stuff very differently than I do, which is the main point I was making in the article. For example, as long as a woman has sex with me within 3-4 hours of face time, I LOVE IT when she thinks of me as “relationship material." She'll likely be a wonderful MLTR that will last years and years. Different strokes for different folks, dude. Do what works for you, everyone else can do what works for them (provided they're meeting the requirements I discussed in the article).
Dawson Stone 2014-10-19 12:54:26
@BD What percent of the time when you meet a women does she not look as you expected she would? This was a huge time sink when I used traditional dating sites. And I too love when they want me to be in a relationship I just don't want one but I do like how it tilts the balance of power in my favor. Also, if you indicted somewhere in your post to only disagree with you one point at a time I missed it or I would have followed your rule.
Jason Ellis 2014-10-19 18:59:08
We guys has the first obligation to spend money, it was designed that way from the very start that's why when a man gets married he is the first and foremost obligated to work for his family.
Jack Outside the Box 2014-10-20 00:26:52
No man with any degree of self respect should ever spend money on women. Period. First, spending money on women is an act of worship. It is an admission that her time is more valuable than yours and you must compensate her for it. It is, therefore, an act of pedestaling and chivalry. You are denying her sexuality by implying that she is doing you a favor by sleeping with you, which you must repay her for, because only men get horny, right? Anyone who does this is a conservative Puritan with very low self esteem, and probably, a Madonna/whore complex! That's why pimps force their whores to pay for everything, as they take most of the whores' money in order to solidify them worshipping him. Not that I advocate that, but it does go a long way to show that the one who spends the money is in the inferior position and the one getting paid is the one who is glorified and pedestaled. Second, even if you're not a libertarian, you should still hate the idea of safety nets. Supporting a woman with money creates a safety net for the relationship which eventually motivates her to stay with you despite no longer being horny for you or liking you. She then becomes an actress and a faker because she doesn't want to give up the lifestyle. Safety nets, like money, put the relationship on artificial life support and take away the arrangement's integrity and honesty. Your relationship should survive on the strength of its passion alone. If you allow that passion to rest on a financial safety net, it will vanish with the resting. Once the lust and the emotions are gone, she should have no further incentive to stay with you based on lies. You two should break up. And the only way you'll know if her feelings and desire to be with you were genuine all along is if you give her no incentive, financial or otherwise, to stay with you, other than emotions and sexual passion. Every other relationship is dishonest and pathetic.
Jack Outside the Box 2014-10-20 00:32:16
Jason - don't speak for me, or any other man! We men are not obligated to do ANYTHING for women! Women are obligated to spend money on themselves! It was designed by women to control men a long time ago. And getting married is the biggest mistake any man can possibly make with women! A man is only obligated to provide for his children. And the woman shares this obligation. If the woman refuses to provide for herself, she has the moral obligation to starve!
Dawson Stone 2014-10-20 07:09:47
@Jack Outside the Box Let me ask you this, if you had a friend that won lottery that you had known since grade school and up until now when ever you went out you split the bill. He wins 10 million and the next time you go out he says, "No worries Jack, I got this." Forget dating, I have had friends that had way more money than me and they frequently picked up the bill. I have also had friends that didn't have two nickels to rub together and I would frequently paid for him when we would do stuff…otherwise he simply couldn't do anything and he was fun to hang out with. Now let me say that I 100% agree with you that if a women comes to depend on you financially it will undermine her ability to remain clear why she is with you. Is it the money or you. With that said, you can spend money on a woman and not have her be dependent on you. For me it is more about income disparity. Since I am 25-30 years older than the women I date there is zero chance they make as much money as me. I think your view is too black and white and as usual the truth is more gray.
Axel Page 2014-10-20 13:32:26
Great write-up, very on point. As a man in his 20's - I agree with your model. 1-2 drinks, a somewhat cheap meal or app, all under $30-40. If you need to do this multiple times before sex, beware of girls out for free food & drink.
DonPheromon 2014-10-20 15:39:33
@Jack Outside The Box G, you couldn't be more wrong! Spending money on women or anyone for that matter has absolutely nothing to do with self respect. I would like to repeat what I wrote in an earlier post. I stated that what is most important as far as spending money on women is concerned is the context/frame within which the spending is done. If it is clear to you and to her(I say "clear to you" because you have to know this first) that the decision to spend/not spend is 100% yours to make and that you don't feel pressured/financially obliged to her in any way, then it's normal. I would also repeat that so few guys do this correctly and that's why the manosphere generally advises against spending on women just for you to be on the safer side and not because spending per se is bad. @Dawson Stone You say you base your decision to spend on income disparity. While I find this incredulous,(I mean, are you sure you haven't placed such a false obligation on yourself that because you've worked hard to put your shit together and the women haven't, you should be the one to spend?) I would like to ask when you make this consideration. Is it with women you are seeing regularly or during the seduction process? I ask because BD stated that he was making this post on spending within a seduction context and not within a dating/relationship context.
Dawson Stone 2014-10-20 16:40:12
@DonPheromon Let me clarify. I DO NOT decide to spend money on women because I make more money than they do. I am simply saying that because I am 25-30 years older I make WAY more money then they do. In some cases I make more in a day then they make in a month. It isn't that I have worked harder (although is some cases that is true) but that I have had 25-30 years more time to accumulate wealth. Sometimes I want a super hot 18-20-something that I know, trust and enjoy as a person to come with me (like on a vacation or something) and there isn't a chance in hell they can afford it on their own and I am happy to pay their way. Shit, I have done that for a couple of friends over the years and they aren't 18, hot and fuck my brains out. 😉
Blackdragon 2014-10-21 12:51:48
What percent of the time when you meet a women does she not look as you expected she would?It’s rare. I’d say less than 10-15% of the time. If a woman looks different than her photo, it’s usually because she looks better, not worse, at least in my experience. I will avoid opening women who look like they have a cute-face-but-chubby-body, and I will ask for full-body pics if I’m really suspicious. If this is a “huge time sink” for you, my guess is that you are very, very picky about a certain “type.” I’m not. As long as she’s trim, hot, and low-drama, I’m in. Her “type,” hair color, specific body fat percentage, taste in clothes, race, or whatever aren't super relevant to me as long as she's hot.
if you indicted somewhere in your post to only disagree with you one point at a time I missed it or I would have followed your rule.I told you in the comments a few posts ago. It’s not a general rule I apply to everyone; just to guys like you who have a tendency to knee-jerk disagree with every little detail that comes out of my mouth. I don’t mind it personally, but it derails threads and is disruptive to the overall conversation with the other commenters. @Jack Outside the Box- On a philosophical level, I agree with every word you said. I personally think the initial goal of every man should always be to get to sex with ZERO MONEY SPENT, and start there as a baseline. Everything spent beyond zero dollars is a very unfortunate compromise caused by false and stupid Societal Programming. Even when I have to spend $7 on a woman for a drink on a first date, it feels wrong to me. Especially considering women experience more physical pleasure from sex than we do, and have been demanding “equality” for decades now. Regardless, we live in an imperfect, fallen world. If I made it a personal rule that I was to never, ever spend any money on women whatsoever, it would be extremely difficult to get the results with women I now enjoy. I would still get laid, but it would involve a hell of lot more time and effort. So instead of spending zero, I spend the absolute bare minimum. It’s technically more than zero, but barely. A compromise to be sure, and not one I like, but one I can live with.
Phero 2014-10-21 18:18:16
I agree with a lot on your blog and like it a lot. But in my experience most Misers are Miserable and often living in the past.
Dawson Stone 2014-10-21 19:18:26
Amen Brother. Spending money on people you enjoy and you can afford to spend is one of life's greatest pleasures. I had a close mentor that made about $25 million selling a company to Oracle and one of the coolest things about him was how generous and cool he was about being generous all without being taken advantage of. I promised myself if I ever generated any real wealth that was how I was going go be. Sadly he died when he was 55 of a brain tumor and his money was useless to him. I bet he wished he had spent MORE of his money that's for sure. I am actually planning a 20 week, 20 country trip for 5 years from now. I am going to invite 35 people but only one per week gets to come. Who ever responds first and "claims" their week gets free first class airfare and 5 star accommodating for the week but they have to sign in blood they are coming. I am going to make some fantastic memories with 20 of the most important people in my life and of course my daughter will be invited for as much of the trip as she wants. I have estimated the trip will cost me $1 million give or take. This is $1 million that at the moment I don't have. But I will by then and it will be some of the best money I have ever spent.
Blackdragon 2014-10-21 19:31:59
I donate 5 percent of my income every month to charity. I've bought dinners for guy buddies and had no problem with it whatsoever. You guys are talking about giving money to people in general. I'm talking about giving money to women in exchange for sexual activity. Two completely different topics.
Dawson Stone 2014-10-21 19:45:09
Then you are simply reading it wrong. I am not giving anyone money for sexual activity. That is ludicrous. By your own admission you are a tightwad and don't want to spend any more money on women than necessary. I am simply saying whether I spend money on a buddy who can't afford a great steak dinner (or sexy lingerie to wear for me or whatever) or a girl that I really like that is in my rotation and I love spending time with is IMO a distinction that makes no sense to me. They would have sex with me regardless of if I got them the steak dinner or the lingerie but it enhances the experience for both of us when I do, from time-to-time spend some money. And all the while my CPO is still under $35 and WELL within my budget. I don't know why you KEEP saying I am paying in exchange for sex when nothing could be further from the truth. You act like because you spend $17 instead of x dollars that matters. I just don't get it. But I guess now I will stop trying. Oh well.
Bellum 2014-10-22 02:38:38
Quid pro quo. Don't buy a date anything as there is no relationship and thus no warranted expectation of reciprocity (this is what most men don't get). Avoid being perceived as ungenerous by demonstrating values and/or by helping the poor (I think this is better than Neil's paying the bartender in advance and pretending to be a made guy or whatever). Do appreciate, respect and reward your woman for all the things she does for you. If she prepares homecooked meals, keeps the household, suprises you in lingerie on bad days, makes your coffee in the morning and is kind, thankful and respectful, you better return the favour! The best things in life are free. Women value the time you take for them even more than the cash you throw at them. A thoughtfully planned picknick in the beautiful outdoors can beat a fancy restaurant. Learn to cook!
Dawson Stone 2014-10-22 05:43:20
@Bellum While some of the best things in life my be free there are TONS of awesome things that are not free. But let me see if I understand your point of view. You think it is fine to have a women cook, clean and surprise you in lingerie (are you a fan of co-habitation? I don’t want to assume anything) but not OK to buy her a sexy dress to wear for you? As an example from my own life, let’s say you have been seeing a beautiful 19-yo for 5 months. She has never asked you for a penny. She is fun, a great lover, zero drama and an all around good person. She is working two jobs, helping support her two younger sisters and is also a full time student. She is $100 short on her car payment and if she loses her car also loses her two jobs and ability to commute to school. You tell her, hey sorry, thanks for the home cooked meals, weekly fuckfests and for keeping my place clean but that’s not how I roll. And if you are BD you ask her, if she doesn’t mind, to mail a $250 check to a local charity on her way out to job number 2. Do I have that about right? Am I the only one that sees this as totally arbitrary?
Bellum 2014-10-22 07:25:52
@ Dawson Stone Co-habitation suits me. Concerning your case: I obviously wouldn't let her cook and clean if she already had so many responsabilities, and would help her best I could. I would pay for lingerie, as that's for my benefit. I wouldn't pay for her car loan though. If she can't afford it, then the problem is structural and she made a big mistake. I might (contractually) lend her the principal free of interest and help her sort out her life and finances, but that's it. Sounds like a great girl!
Phero 2014-10-22 18:01:25
It's the same as holding a grudge. The manosphere is full of "don't hold grudge" or don't judge them etc etc. If you have no money and barely scraping by, then fine. If you're doing well then why hold a grudge for a few bux? If she's a bitch and abuses the privilege, well she only gets to do it once.
Bellum 2014-10-23 02:53:05
I would agree that it's good to treat people and thus women to things you enjoy but they can't afford. I remember having pizza with a Swiss CEO (über alpha) I kept running into in France and along the French-Spanish border. We decided to have red wine and he orders a very expensive bottle and tells me it's on him. He doesn't pay my pizza because that's my responsability, but he buys the very expensive bottle for the both of us because he enjoys angels pissing on his tongue. Verily, it was a great wine. That's my golden rule. If you enjoy an experience (1) and other people can't join that experience (2) through no fault of their own (3), then it's good to include them.
mr man 2015-07-16 04:46:30
my money is mine.i spend it on mine .bills are 50%/50%. eg. rent and shopping and phone. if she wants something she has to pay or it , if she hasn't got money then it's not my problem. on our first date we went half. i told her we'd go half and we did.
Sugar Daddy Dating Sites - The Blackdragon Blog 2015-09-10 05:01:26
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Juicy Red 2015-09-21 17:45:29
I'm looking for somebody that would like to have a good time with me.
Juicy Red 2015-09-21 17:46:31
I was trying to see who would like to have a good time with me.
Will 2016-03-23 19:08:42
I guess it just seems funny to have to learn any of this. I've been laid walking in a park, driving home from the gym, at the Hot springs. I think the primary distinction is do you want to have sex with good looking women or do you want to form a long lasting relationship. Generally, if you don't want to spend any money (or can't) then look your best and look for sex just one time. Most of the time, even if you are hot and great in bed, women really trip when they figure out you fucked them for free. Then they start wanting things like a date, you picking them up, etc. The best game is to do everything on your schedule: you are too busy to go out, you will be home for a little while on such and such afternoon, or evening. Have some food at home, a nice movie, etc. If she says yes to that you know what will happen. None of that is expensive and you already have those things for yourself, adding for two isn't much more. Some will hang around and keep coming back for more, some will get very frustrated if you don't then take them out. I'm lazy and lucky, I focus on my work as an athlete and businessman, and my intellectual work. I am not able to pay my expenses by my sport, but women find this really exciting anyway, and obviously it keeps me in tremendous shape. This leaves little time to even worry about women, and they tend to bend their schedules to work with what I give them. The worst place to economize sex is at a club, bar or other nighttime social place that requires you to pay money just for the "honor" of chatting up a chick. Plus i like to be in bed EARLY, like 730, ill bend the rule a little but if im with a chick I want her in my bed between 630 and 8pm....so I have time to fuck and enjoy her AND get my super rest that drives my business in the early am till about 10am, then my training outside in the early afternoon. I've had women tell me that they were wet the moment I talked to them at the grocery store, the spa, wherever. I guess it's just me but i think this whole trying to hard PUA stuff is such a time and money suck. Get as healthy as you can, get tan, smile, have lots of stuff in your life that you know about and are really interested in, and you don't have to spend a dime on someone else, just on whatever it takes to live your life. If you are energized about things in your life, you are literally a magnet...and NONE of this PUA stuff even matters. Trust me. Try it and see.....I didn't charge you anything for this and it isn't complicated. But, of course, you have to be your own man. I see little of that today.
bongstar420 2016-06-27 14:04:53
Still too much work....Will they sign papers that there is no chance of anything but sex? Tell them you just want sex first and see how far you get. I bet your success rate plummets.
Ed 2016-09-17 00:41:31
I know this was a two year old conversation but I think it bears telling that generosity in itself is an act of pleasure. Equate that with the pleasure of sex and , it is easy to comprehend. I too take pleasure in buying for others, but only if not expected, or deemed a " quid pro quo ", and is received as such. I would love to see the youthful glee on the 20 year old's face when she felt the sun on the Cancun beach with a waiter bringing cocktails , moonlight dancing, late mornings , feeling beautiful around her lover. That will be happiness to her that even matrimony doesn't hold. No strings just let go baby . That is giving more than you get. If you don't think so you haven't lived long enough . What price do you put on it? If someone thinks I'm being romantic, I'm not. They are having a fleeting moment whether they admit it, or even realize it. No matter if married, or just lovers, the time is a one time experience . Because she will never be that way to you again . Ever , so drink it in , and be glad you had the pleasure .
Ed 2016-09-17 00:47:29
Or you can take me , and we can smokes cigars , fish for Marlin , and chase Latino women at night . That's sounds like fun too , but she is a one time deal . I'll be here next year!