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The Great Blackdragon Debate No. 2 – Complimenting Women’s Appearance
-By Caleb Jones
Today I will be debating Sebastiaan Vaz, who believes that my advice about not complimenting a woman's appearance to get to sex faster is dead wrong. Please click here for a full description of my opinion on this issue, so you know what Sebastiaan is disagreeing with.
Therefore, the topic of the debate is:
Sincerely complimenting a woman in a flirtatious way, either about her personality or her body, dramatically speeds up the time to sex.
Sebastiaan will be arguing FOR. I will be arguing AGAINST.
There are five debate rules that Sebastiaan and I will be adhering to. They are listed here. If you would like to debate me publicly on this blog in the next Great Blackdragon Debate on any other topic, under the same set of rules, then either email me or leave a comment below starting with the words "Debate Topic."
Sebastiaan's comments will be in dark blue like this, while my comments will be in the usual font. Since I'm full of love and graciousness, I let Sebastiaan start and end the debate.
Let the battle begin!!!
You should compliment women because it is charming to do such a thing.
Why is it charming? Because it:
1. Makes her feel better about herself. Everyone loves to be complimented at, especially women as they typically have a low self-esteem.
2. Makes her feel special. The more you give out sincere compliments to a beautiful girl, the more she will feel special to you.
ALL women want to feel special. Here’s why:
1. Women naturally want to feel special because they are the ones who have to become pregnant and thus are much more vulnerable. They therefore unconsciously look for a man who truly cares about them, who protects them and stays devoted to them. If she’s not that special to him why would he care to stay devoted to her?
2. Due to social conditioning, a beautiful girl will never go to bed with you on the very first day you get to know her just because you think she’s hot. But when you make clear she’s very special to you by specifically complimenting her about the things which you adore in her, she can and will use that as an excuse to go to bed with you (If she likes you) on the very first day you meet her. Like: “I shouldn’t go to bed with him but he makes me feel so good and we have something special…”
Therefore, a man must be charming to successfully get the highest rate of lays possible within his lifetime.
It’s maybe not necessary, but it definitely improves your attractiveness as women want a man who is attracted to them.
You can also compliment a woman non-verbally simply by looking at her with a smile, checking her out, holding eye contact, smelling her hair, continuously holding her hands etc.
I agree that everyone wants to feel better about themselves in a general sense, but disagree with you regarding your specifics.
As I have talked about before, just about every woman who’s a 5 or over has had men tell her hundreds of times throughout her life that she’s hot or whatever. This includes overweight women and mildly ugly women too. (Most men will fuck anything.)
I promise you that being the 524th man to say this to her in no way makes her feel special. She already knows she’s hot, that most men want to have sex with her, and that YOU want to have sex with her. Repeating this to her is, as I’ve said before, like walking up to a rich man and saying “Wow! You’re rich!” It accomplishes nothing other than to categorize you as another typical, horny dude who wants to do her.
I agree that complimenting on something that has nothing whatsoever to do with her appearance can be okay. It can elicit some positive results assuming you are doing everything else correctly, such as being confident, relaxed, and outcome independent.
If you are a very outcome independent guy out on a first date with a 9, and you don’t mention anything about how she looks but do mention that she’s “unusually perceptive” or has a “unique energy” (credit goes to Mystery on that one, and it still works) then sure, that can help. But if you compliment her energy amidst comments about how beautiful she is, all power in that technique is lost.
- Complimenting on appearance = bad. You decrease your odds for first-time sex and/or reduce the speed to sex.
- Complimenting on something other than appearance while keeping a very outcome independent frame and not mentioning appearance at all = okay.
The fact that beautiful girls get compliments a million times does not matter at all. When giving compliments, you don't need to be original at all. You need to be sincere and specific.
It's all about making her feel special TO YOU, not in general. She indeed knows she's hot, but she wants a masculine man who thinks she's hot as well, and that's exactly my point here.
You can't compare complimenting a beautiful girl on her looks to complimenting a man on his wealth, here's why:
Almost ALL women, no matter beautiful or not, want constant validation regarding their looks because they know that their looks will bring them the highest chances of finding a worthy (masculine) male. And like I said, they typically have low self-esteem so they love the validation.
Wealthy men don't care about other people's opinion about their wealth, so of course they don't care at all if you walk up to them complimenting them on their wealth, unless they as well, seek validation.
I will state it again: Women want a masculine man who is attracted to them. I explained in my previous comment why.
You demonstrate your attraction for her by the way you compliment and flirt with her.
Also, before you can sleep with a woman, you first need to demonstrate your sexual interest in her anyways, so why not do so immediately by boldly and shamelessly flirting with her the very second you get to know her?
Women absolutely LOVE a charming, non-needy, and masculine man who constantly tells them how beautiful and special they are.
If you worry about lowering your value when complimenting her, you clearly have a problem with social conditioning believing that you somehow need to earn beautiful women, and that you can't simply go directly after them.
I agree that women want constant validation of their looks and typically have low self-esteem. I disagree that men don't care about other people's opinion of their wealth. Some don't, but many become wealthy and/or flaunt/brag about their wealth for exactly that reason, but I don't want to get off track.
A hot woman I'm on a date with already knows I'm physically attracted to her. She's not a moron and doesn't need me to tell her. She knows this via my time, interest, questions, kino, and perhaps non-appearance-based compliments. She'll certainly know this when I try to have sex with her!
To suggest that in a dating/seduction scenario women need verbal confirmation that you want to have sex with them doesn't make any sense.
Why not compliment her boldly and shamelessly? Because it reduces the odds, even if just a little, of you having sex with her, or at least having sex with her as quickly. You can prove this yourself: it goes back to my 20-date challenge. Go on 10 first dates and don't compliment their looks AT ALL, then go on another 10 and slather them with compliments about their appearance, even if done in a non-needy way. You will lay more women in the first group, and faster.
It has nothing to do with my social conditioning. It's has to do with the fact that a small chunk of attraction is lost if you tell her she's beautiful or hot. Again, I'm not saying it's "impossible" to sex a woman quickly while complimenting looks. Many players have above-average appearance and strong game which can overcome this. I'm saying that if they, or even the typical guy, refrains from doing this, his odds of sex will go up and his speed to sex will increase, all other variables being equal.
If a wealthy man does care about other people's opinion of his wealth, then it will make him feel better of himself whenever he's complimented on it. If he considers his OWN opinion of himself more important, then, whether your compliment or insult him, it won't matter to him at all, as he trusts his own opinion the most. This applies to everything somebody may have, be, or do. Not only wealth.
To say that a hot woman you're dating already knows you find her hot MIGHT be true, but never necessarily has to be so since most women doubt their looks, intelligence, and/or appearance all the time.
When did I say that women need VERBAL confirmation that you want to have sex with them? All I said is that women want a man who is attracted to them. HOW you demonstrate your attraction for her is another, and one of those ways is indeed to verbally compliment her, but I never said it HAS to be verbal.
You don't state valid arguments for why you shouldn't compliment her boldly and shamelessly. You simply state YOUR OWN EXPERIENCES. Your 20-date challenge is based on wrong conclusions since if your mindset is wrong about attracting women (social conditioning), you'll obviously behave very differently whenever you compliment a beautiful woman, and behavior is the main attractive quality of males.
This issue has, in my opinion, everything to do with your social conditioning. It is in my eyes ridiculous to read something like this. I'm sure however, that most will disagree with me, simply because they too are influenced by social conditioning.
Whether a man is an "above-average appearance", or the typical guy, all that matters when complimenting an incredibly hot woman is that he does not appear desperate, eager, or needy for her.
I am not stating just my own experiences. Numerous men, and I mean a lot, have told me they used to verbally compliment women's appearance pre-sex, and when they stopped they got laid more often and/or faster.
1. You're saying that my 20-date example won't work because my "mindset is wrong." Alright then. Please tell me exactly and specifically how to compliment a woman with my mindset "right," so that doing so will make fast sex more likely. Please be very specific and use a specific example(s). Other men have said things like "Just say it confidently and it works" but that's not specific nor helpful.
2. Are you saying that if I complement but don't do it verbally then I'm following your advice? Because I do indeed "compliment" women non-verbally during a first date constantly, via things like passionate eye contact, kino, deep questions, sex talk, etc.
If you think complimenting non-verbally is an asset, then we're in agreement. My only objection is to VERBAL complimenting of a woman's APPEARANCE.
Numerous men, and I mean EVERYBODY, is influenced badly by social conditioning.
I already told you how to compliment a woman verbally on her appearance, but I will reiterate myself.
You should verbally compliment a beautiful girl on her appearance by doing it sincerely and specifically without appearing needy, desperate, or eager for her and/or sex.
Besides, a man should be confident and responsible in everything that he does. Both are necessary because women are naturally attracted to confidence, and they naturally want a man to take responsibility, since they are the more vulnerable species.
Therefore, if a man is confident and responsible, and he does not appear desperate, needy, or eager for sex (which is the opposite of charm in my definition), then he can verbally or nonverbally compliment a woman as much and as long as he wants, as long as he stays sincere and specific, and remains charming.
I can’t explain social conditioning, and all the characteristics of confidence, charm, and responsibility – which in my eyes means having the right mindset – in a max 1700 character comment.
Non verbally complimenting women is even better than verbally doing it, so yes we are definitely in an agreement with that, but I am also saying that verbally complimenting a woman is perfectly fine as well and actually helps me seduce them a lot. That’s after all why I started this issue with you.
I recommend you to read “The Manual – What Women Want And How To Give It To Them” by W. Anton.
Everything I say and do is based on that book, and it has changed my life dramatically. I’m sure your view on this will change as soon as you’ll read it, it’s a best seller after all, and has changed my life for ever.
Okay. I'm a non-needy, confident, outcome independent Alpha Male. I'm on a first date with a woman I think has really beautiful, exotic eyes. So in a confident way, I look at her deeply and say, "You know, you have really exotic and beautiful eyes. I love them." I'm doing exactly what you recommended. I am being sincere, specific, in a way not eager for sex at all, and from a very non-needy, confident place. And I have still reduced the odds of fast sex from this woman, even if just a little tiny bit. Because, as I've said before, I am now weaker in her eyes, and more like the other 200 men who have probably told her she has pretty eyes a thousand times.
We're at the point where we're both repeating ourselves, so we're probably done unless you have something new to add.
I've heard of the book but never read it. I'll check it out.
So you now actually fully admitted that you indeed are fully influenced by social conditioning by saying that you are weaker in her eyes after complimenting her verbally.
Social conditioning teaches males that they are inadequate, or unworthy of beautiful females until after they have proven their worth to society. This has somehow given you (and countless of other males) the belief that you can’t compliment beautiful girls verbally because you’ll somehow be “weaker” in her eyes.
I will quote a few lines from the book for you:
“Complimenting a woman’s character is the most original way to make her feel good, but of course she also wants to hear that she is attractive. All women, no matter how certain they appear, want to hear from someone else that they look sexy and beautiful, which is the combination of looking feminine, fertile, young, and healthy. Telling women sincerely that they are beautiful should not be a problem, though, as beautiful females are the only females you really want and the only ones you should be flirting with.
It is a mistake to think a woman has heard all such compliments before and that means you should avoid giving them to set yourself apart from other males. Only males with the wrong mindset, concerned with being unworthy of women, worry about such things.”
The definition “male” in the book is defined as an unattractive beta male. So as for Anton’s definition you’re actually not that Alpha!
You definitely need this book. Like I said, it will change your opinion on this.
You and Anton might be 100% right about the social conditioning, but you want to keep talking about what I'm thinking or what she's thinking. I'm only talking about what she actually DOES, which is whether or not she has sex with a new man quickly, or not. And if you verbally compliment her appearance, the odds of this happening go down at least a little bit.
Anton is, like you, talking about what women want, and pre-sex I don't care what they want. All I care about is what works best to get to sex quickly. This is why you should never take seduction advice from women; they'll talk about what they want which almost never has anything to do with how fast they'll actually take their panties off and fuck a guy. If she has sex with me very fast while thinking I'm a sort of a selfish jerk because I didn't say she was pretty, that's a win for me.
We're done. I'll let you make the final statement and wrap things up, and the readers can decide who's right.
Where talking about what women want sexually. That’s also what Anton means.
Doesn’t it sound right when we say: “You have to give women what they want sexually in order to quickly have sex with them”?
You actually never even gave a valid argument for why the odds go down whenever you compliment a woman verbally. And if you say that it makes you “weaker” because everyone else does so as well, then that’s a complete wrong assumption based on a wrong mindset.
Women probably don’t have sex with you any faster whenever you verbally compliment them, simply because you believe it DOES make you more unattractive, and therefore you’ll automatically behave less confident. Again, an issue with your mindset.
Anton actually says as well that you should never listen to female dating advice, so on that we agree as well. Anton is simply stating what women naturally, by instinct want, and that is, among other qualities, a charming man. How he is charming does not really matter, so verbally or nonverbally doesn’t matter at all.
I’m actually also curious to why you would think that nonverbally complimenting does work, but verbally complimenting does not. It’s basically the same way of saying: “I like you”.
As soon as you’ve read the book, you will email me and say: “You’re right after all.” Trust me.
I actually care about you and the BD blog simply because I think it absolutely ROCKS. Your advice is rock solid, I just want it to be “perfect”
And that's it folks! Please comment who you think won the debate, and why. I hope this has been educational and entertaining. Thank you Sebastiaan for a spirited battle of wits! And if you would like to debate me next, start your comment with "Debate Topic" and I'll add you to the debate list.
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Maddy 2015-03-15 06:58:59
Cannot resist commenting after reading this debate. To be honest, I personally agree with Blackdragon more. Both methods mentioned probably have their own successes as they are focused on the same result using different methods. It feels to me that Sebastiaan focus more on connecting with the lady on a deeper level to achieve sex. This takes a high level of emotional intelligence and a solid frame( Complete confidence and OI) to be able to use complimenting women's appearance as a tool to accelerate to your desired outcome. I personally do not believe anyone can be at their peaked state every single moment and in every aspects of their lives. Blackdragon feels to me to be more focused on the actions to take or not to take for the highest possibility on reaching the desired outcome(sex) as quickly as possible. This method I feel will definitely be easier to execute for man who are lacking in the confidence or emotional intelligence department or people starting out on their journey towards awesome sex with women. In short, it is newbie friendly. To summarize, if you are at the top of your game ( 100% solid frame and unbreakable confidence, a state that is really hard to achieve), verbal compliments might work out. Other than that, I feel that most will benefit more withholding verbal compliments. Just my two cents and I thank Blackdragon and Sebastiaan for this very interesting debate.
Chuck 2015-03-15 07:21:45
Doesn’t it sound right when we say: “You have to give women what they want sexually in order to quickly have sex with them”That does sound right... but it’s actually ass-backwards and it’s the root of your error. What a woman “wants” doesn't automatically equal attracted to / ready for sex. Think about a little kid. He wants to eat candy and ice cream for every meal thinking it will make him happy. That might be true in the moments immediately following the sugar intake, but as an adult, you know that he’ll get sick and feel awful after adopting this habit. His wanting something for a specific result (happiness) doesn't automatically translate into that result happening. Tell a woman how sexy her eyes are while on a date, and she might flash a big smile with all of the happy emotions – for about 8 seconds – and then she’s back down to baseline and you've pretty much declared that she’s got her hooks in you. Less challenge, less mystery, and therefore a bit more boring. She doesn't know what makes her panties drip any more than a little kid knows about healthy eating… and a compliment is a blood sugar spike for the soul. As a man, it’s your job to know this even if she doesn't. Oh, and as to why displaying non-verbal interest works better: it is ambiguous. She doesn't 100% know that you're into. She can maintain that uncertainty, which is sexy. Gotta give it to BD.
Tony 2015-03-15 07:26:50
I agree with Caleb here, and there's two main points where Sebastiaan goes wrong. 1. He says the reason why complimenting doesn't work is because the guys doing it don't believe it will work. However, most guys who come to the conclusion that it doesn't work used to do it fully believing that it did work, then changed their minds after it failed them over and over again. 2. He wants to know why telling her nonverbally works while just telling her doesn't. The reason is the same as the principle of "Show vs. Tell". When writing, you want to show the reader the scene, not tell them. For example, if you were writing an online dating profile instead of saying "I like to travel" you should say something like "I'll never forget the time I played basketball with those kids from Beijing". The second one says the same thing, but it's much more powerful. In the same way, telling a women she's beautiful is soulless, no matter how genuine you are. But when you show her you find her attractive in the way Caleb described it means a lot more than a couple words ever could.
Diggy 2015-03-15 08:18:12
My mother and sister are far above average in beauty. I got a front row seat of a massive amount of men approach them. Almost all with compliments on their beauty. I assure you they have heard it all before. A while back my sister was telling this horror story on FB about how some stranger in the grocery line told she was beautiful. She was so disgusted. I commented that she was rude, he that he was just giving her a compliment and that it takes a lot of balls to approach women. Her friends just blasted me! LOL. Heres the things... Ive seen this exact approach work on her and my mother. I guess it could be that the successful ones are more charming. I doubt it tho. I have a strong observational nature and Im telling you it seems totally arbitrary when complimenting a women works. And it totally does...whenever the million perimeters in a womans mind clicks yes, Im ready for that now. My take is that many times its a negative...few times its a positive. And if we are talking about pre-sex here its almost entirely unnecessary. On a cost-benefit analysis its just not worth it. I think there are far better ways to let a women know you think shes special without having to say it directly. In fact, if you can get this across in a way other men have to just say it then your already ahead of the game. Ive always been a quality over quantity guy anyways so a woman that needs my validation isnt really something Im after anyways. Its a form of pre-qualification to me. Im with BD on this one... I just dont see the advantage.
maldek 2015-03-15 08:29:05
Both of you are right. BD: 1 Sebastiaan: 0 BD got it nailed down with this: " If she has sex with me very fast while thinking I’m a sort of a selfish jerk because I didn’t say she was pretty, that’s a win for me." -> This is EXACTLY how women work. They want to to take them, what she does *want* is of little concern here. While Sebastiaan: "“You have to give women what they want sexually in order to quickly have sex with them”?" -> I strongly disagree.This is nonsense. Examples: Pay a hooker money. Rape a women. Promise a promotion at work. All these have nothing to do with giving her what she sexually wants and still lead to fast sex. BD: 1 Sebastiaan: 1 Sebastiaan has a point too: "simply because you believe it DOES make you more unattractive" This is spot on. It is not so much important what we SAY as it is important how we feel/think about it. Two people can say the exact same thing, like two trained sales persons, but one might sell and the other dont. Why? Because they are different. What works well for one guy with his mindset and conditioning might not be good for guy #2. From my experience it is OFTEN better not to compliment women on first dates. From my experience it comes from the fact you are beeing different than all the others. However in the grand picture Sebastiaan's arguments are good. Example: If the king compliments one of his wifes maids, it would by no means lower her respect for him. It would perhaps lead to quicker sex even because she might see it as a "once-in-a-lifetime" opportunity to get king-dick inside of her.
garland 2015-03-15 08:45:39
Lots of good comments here but I think one factor being ignored is the looks-differential between the woman and the man. A woman will take a compliment very differently from a guy +1 to her than from a guy who is -1 to her. VERY differently. This may explain the persistence of disagreement on this... everybody's trying to come up with a one-size-fits all rule and there isn't one.
Kurt 2015-03-15 10:16:07
I believe the reason non-verbal works so well is because sex and sexual excitement happens in a much older, more primitive part of the brain, while speech is a relatively new addition and happens in a different part. Speech brings the awareness away from the 'reptile brain' and up to the speech centers and higher reasoning, away from where we want the focus to be.
Blackdragon 2015-03-15 10:17:37
My mother and sister are far above average in beauty. I got a front row seat of a massive amount of men approach them. Almost all with compliments on their beauty. I assure you they have heard it all before. A while back my sister was telling this horror story on FB about how some stranger in the grocery line told she was beautiful. She was so disgusted. I commented that she was rude, he that he was just giving her a compliment and that it takes a lot of balls to approach women. Her friends just blasted me!That's the bottom line for me. Regardless of how awesome you are, because of women's past experiences, it's a technique that "might help" or "might not hurt" if you do it, but is guaranteed to help if you simply don't do it.
Eugene 2015-03-15 11:49:03
I also have to side with Blackdragon here. I found from all my experience that he's right more times than not, and I can't chalk this up to some "societal conditioning" in my head. I think there's one main thing that Blackdragon should have pushed more that Sebastian keeps overlooking. Let me use an analogy : Texting. I think most people know that the majority of the time, if you haven't had sex yet with a girl or haven't even been on a first date, you want to keep the texts generally shorter, and to the point. Is it possible to build attraction, to be funny, to elicit some emotion from the girl and get her more excited to see you and maybe feeling even a bit more sexy? Sure. Plenty of guys say they do it consistently, and good for them. But why do the majority of people say you're better off just keeping it short, keep all the jokes and laughing to a minimum, and just get her on the date? Easy - because there's just too many opportunities for you to fuck it up. One joke you thought was good that she took the wrong way, something you said that reminded her of some other creepy guy even though you meant it in a different way. Probably 100 different things. You're just better off, on average, keeping it light, a little humor, and short. Just because a few guys out there have success with making it sexual through text pre date (which I don't even think is a good idea all the time), doesn't mean it's a good idea overall. So back to the point - what Sebastian is missing is all the negative associations she's built up, over years and years, and through all her experiences, of creepy guys complimenting her appearance, super nice guys kissing her ass complimenting her appearance, other guys objectifying her and only caring about her appearance, etc. The smallest thing could trigger that, and you just put yourself in the same boat as them, where you could have easily avoided it. Can you compliment her confidently and make her feel good and still want to have sex with you? Sure. From all my experience, you're better of conveying your interest nonverbally, while still complimenting her on things just outside her appearance (her energy, her smile, etc.) that still makes her feel good about herself. Another thing Sebastian is missing - is that when he says woman love to feel desired and like to know that a guy is attracted to them, is mainly from GUYS SHE'S ALREADY ATTRACTED TO. You're in a different boat if she hasn't fully decided about you yet. Just because she likes compliments from men in general when they compliment her appearance, even if you did it in a completely confident, outcome independent, and charming way, doesn't mean it necessarily helps you if she responds well, and it doesn't necessarily mean that it works better than being confident and charming, and not complimenting her appearance at all (pre sex). I can see how you guys can keep going back and forth on this, but Blackdragon is just right. Take 50 guys, have blackdragon work with them for a few months and teach them to be non-needy, and stop giving girls compliments on their looks on the first date. Then have Sebastian take another 50 and have him work on the same things with them, while still compliment girls looks on the first date. The first 50 will have more success, faster. You're just better off not saying it the majority of the time.
PUA Brian Kinney 2015-03-15 11:52:56
Sebastiaan's comments are completely nonsense in terms of GAME. He might be a masculine good looking guy or he might possess other qualities so that is why he might successful with women but his GAME advice is poor. A few observations here: 1. Women indeed are insecure creatures, even 9s and 10s because they depend solely on beauty: you don't fuck/marry/have a girlfriend... because of her "inner beauty" only but because she's hot enough for you. So if they're insecure: Complimenting her appearance is contradictory and against your game because: a) In the case that she's insecure of her beauty (refer to Diggy's great example above), you'll be perceived as a dishonest confident/masculine/insert useless quality here_____ horny guy who only wants to bang her. Or maybe she'll think?: "Ohh, yes now I see how beautiful and hot I am after his compliment, my eyes are now healed, ohh I can see clearly now" ha ha nonsense, women know very well their "market value". b) In the case that she already knows that she's hot as hell, how different is your comment from the other hundreds of comments she heard before? besides once again is against your game because 99% of those comments comes from betas, AFCs, orbiters, needy guys or just rude guys who makes this compliments in a rude way just for fun, so your compliments triggers negative memories and sets you in the same category as those guys immediately . The book that changed Sebastiaan's life is dead wrong from the very title, you never ever, ever have to worry for providing the things women want, where the fuck Anton learned that? you'll be perceived as a guy with no value and you will bore them like nothing, women like bad boys who challenges them buddy, men who give them what they want in small portions after they've really earned it, and that leads to my conclusion regarding the debate: Compliment her all you want (Only if that makes you happy somehow): After you've fucked her brains out at least a few times. But for me is stupid to say: You've beautiful eyes when she made me hard for 2 hours straight. For women actions counts not words. Saved the best for the last: "Women are never disarmed by compliments. Men always are. That is the difference between the two sexes. " -Oscar Wilde- And please don't start with Oscar Wilde was gay bullshit, this guy use to understand relationships better than most of the straight guys this days. For me BD clearly wins this debate. BD: I'm still very busy, but read your blog religiously,thanks for keeping the amazing work. BD: OK, NO ONE, I'll try my best. You know what I mean. Inspiring. Thank you. PUA Brian Kinney
Jon 2015-03-15 11:53:04
I was in the "against" camp before the debate, and Sesbastiaan's arguments did not change my mind. It seems like a nice theory that if you give women what they want that they will give you what you want, but sex isn't that kind of transaction. That's the kind of thinking that frustrates Nice Guys so much. What do women want? Validation and attention. Compliments give them both, and now that you've given it to them, what do they need you for? Well, except possibly as an orbiter to hang around and kiss her ass... Not complimenting her withholds validation and attention and gives her something to work for which is why it would generally lead to sex more quickly. Or as BradP (at least I think that's where I heard it) put it more crudely, "you can give her validation or you can give her your dick."
Eugene 2015-03-15 12:04:28
And forgot to add one other thing in my comment. Sebastian is coming from an "idealistic" place, where he's basically saying that if you can't compliment her on her appearance and still get her to bed faster than not complimenting, that it says more about issues about your societal conditioning, your needes level, lack of confidence, etc. One quick example - one of my friends had been trying to get in shape for years. He'd go to the gym on and off, but never stick with it. Then he joined Crossfit, stuck with it, and it now in the best shape of his life. You can debate CF vs the gym all you want as far as building muscle, I think you can get stronger if you committed yourself to just training in the gym. But bottom line, I could keep telling him "You just don't have the proper discipline to stick to the gym, and you need to get that fixed if you really want to get strong". Or I can just concede that Crossfit is just on average better for results- something that helps more people get in shape, and stick with it, then the Gym, more often than not. That's the difference between what Sebastian and Blackdragon are saying, and blackdragon is right in that not complimenting will work for more guys, more of the time, all things being equal.
Diggy 2015-03-15 12:53:50
In the case that she’s insecure of her beauty (refer to Diggy’s great example above),Whoa Kinney! Easy talking smack about my family... I kid. Youre correct, however. When I first read in The Game, Neils views was that 9-10s had image issues I went, BINGO! It seems to me that if you meet a 9-10 that isnt the winner type she almost always has image issues because thats all shes got. Beautiful women that excel in school, athletics, business, or otherwise arent as bad.
Byron 2015-03-15 14:23:37
I have to agree with BD on this one. In my personal experience, complimenting a woman before sex does not work. After sex is ok, but not before. Back in my days as a guy who was sleeping with various FB's, before I found my current GF, I always got sex with new women when I did not compliment them on their appearance. Experience proves BD is right on this one.
Marty 2015-03-15 15:22:53
Interesting debate --- I'm a bit confused myself on the issue, but tend to lead slightly to BD's point of view. I do agree with BD's scientific approach of simply DOING the experiment to see what works. But Sebastian is right that it's not a "blind" study --- in science, the experimenter already knowing the hypothesis can definitely affect the purity of the results. A test where you obscure the point of the study (like tell a man on a date to do a list of 6 things, one of them either says complement or don't complement, the other 5 are whatever but the same on both lists). And THEN analyzing the results would be useful. But of course, who has the time and money to run that study? I feel women, esp hot women, get complemented all the time. And thus it's just empty noise, more than a plus or minus. I was valedictorian in high school, super high test scores, etc ... to be honest being told I'm "smart" is nice but generally meaningless --- I already know I'm smart, so it paints you as nice, but doesn't give me any validation. BUT, if you told me I was funny ... something I do get told, but not often -- I would be super validated. Nevertheless, I'm not sure helping my self esteem, as a man, makes me more or less likely to have sex with a women. It doesn't. From a woman's side, I don't now.
Franco 2015-03-15 16:09:15
I agree with most of the readers' comments. The best thing would be an experiment and let numbers speak but we all know this is not feasible. I dare say, however, that anyone with a minor experience in women knows that complimenting on her appearance is counterproductive. Or a non-issue, if you are a rich doctor, a rock star or George Clooney. I am surprised that there are people out there in 2015 that are reading sites on seduction/dating that still believe compliments work. Why NON-verbal communication works? How about it's about 70% of human communication (with 10% being verbal and the rest 20% the TONE of speech, not speech itself)? Still not convinced? Which of the following scenarios looks more realistic (whether you like it or not)? Sunday morning. Man wakes up, does not shave because he is bored and does not have to go to work. Reads the paper. Woman notices. Scenario 1: Woman asks man why he did not shave. He says he was bored. She says "Oh, OK". The End. Scenario 2: Woman notices and feels nervous. Why didn't he shave? He knows she likes him to be shaved when he kisses her. Maybe he is angry? But what did she do to him? No, it can't be that...Maybe he does not intend to kiss her today. Has he lost his interest in her? That must be it, he no longer cares for his appearance because he takes her for granted...OMG IT's THE SECRETARY iSN'T iT! BASTARD!!!... If you ansered 1, you have never been with a woman. If you ansered 2, you know that women JUST WORK non-verbally. It can get hilarious at times but the point is not to question why it happens, just to accept it and use it when dealing with them. It's not supposed to make sense after all, it's chick logic. BD cannot be blamed for not giving a logical argument why not complimenting gets you better results. It simply does. I must say I also find it disturbing at times but I can't do anything about it. Even if it is societal programming, knowing that you are dealing with societal programmed people, doesn't it mean this is how things will work? Do customers express verbally what they want? Who's job is to find what they want if not the salesman's? Doesn't verbally expressing opinions (on any subject) mean you take responsibility for it? How often women want to take responsibility for themselves? BD for me on this one. No offense to anyone, just my 2 cents.
buzz 2015-03-15 17:43:12
I clicked on the link to Sebastiaan’s sales pitch that was in the write up to this debate. If that is really Sebastiaan’s voice he has an accent! A lot of women are sexually attracted to a man with a foreign accent and it really doesn't matter as much what they are saying. So, it could be that Sebastiaan always complements with an accent and he thinks the compliments are getting the women when it is really the accent getting the women. I guess I have always been an AFC and done compliments. I have gotten some women so it does work on some women and in my case it was not really good game or really good looks or even a strong frame that made the difference. Giving compliments can get an AFC layed. So how fast is the question. I want to believe BD is right and am trying to learn not to compliment, it seems hard to do. Interesting debate, not a really strong win either way....
Vaquero357 2015-03-15 18:40:31
Jon nailed it: "What do women want? Validation and attention. Compliments give them both, and now that you’ve given it to them, what do they need you for? Well, except possibly as an orbiter to hang around and kiss her ass…" Anecdote from my days as an AFC orbiter: Super hot chick at work (this was *many* years ago - DO NOT do this at home, kids), a PHB10. I'd push the boundaries of workplace propriety and tell her how nice she looked, etc., expecting to get the payoff in gratitude for boosting her self-esteem. But she would just blow past it and pretty much ignore whatever I'd said. Then one days I was in a playful mood and neg'd her, humorously, nothing nasty - and she loved it! She basically made me go through the whole routine again and ate it up with a spoon. Got a bigger, more positive reaction from her for that than all the times I kissed her ass about how hot she was! I'm afraid I didn't figure this out until years later, after I'd discovered the original mASF and sedfast and BD's teachings. At the time, I went back to kissing the chick's ass with pointless compliments about her appearance, which she probably heard a hundred times in the course of a Saturday night out at the club with her friends. Shortly thereafter I saw the light about NOT doing this shit at work and knocked it off entirely. This was good, of course, because I was just burning up energy as a validation orbiter and was never gonna get outta that orbit with PHB10. Bottom line, I agree with BD and the guys who say complimenting chicks most likely won't gain you much and could very well hurt you by accidentally tapping the bad past associations for her. Once you have an LTR going with a woman, and you're going out or something, and she's gone to a lot of effort to look nice, you do need to acknowledge it, though even then without going overboard.
Sebastiaan Vaz 2015-03-15 18:42:08
Hey guys. I'm really amused reading everyone's arguments for why verbally complimenting women doesn't help after all. It's funny to me because all of those arguments are not really based on any solid foundation of truth. I stated very valid arguments which have everything to do with the instincts of women, unlike some theories you got from experience. My advice to anyone reading this: If you believe that verbally complimenting DOES make you more unattractive, absolutely don't do it. But if you think there might be some truth in what I've said, go ahead and give it all you got. Follow my advice and you'll see for yourself.
Eugene 2015-03-15 18:57:23
Sebastian...I think you had at least 3 people here that specifically said that they stopped complimenting woman after they saw more results when they stopped complimenting them on their appearance from the get go, even though they used to do it. Your entire comment is reframing this as people saying they "believe" it won't work, so they don't do it. I used to do it myself, and still got results. They would appreciate it, they'd say thanks with a big smile, I could easily pulled it off and felt great, and they'd like it. Then over time I realized that all things being equal, unless I was sure the girl was already really into me, I got MORE results holding back on the verbal compliment, conveying interest in other ways (like touching and physical contact), compliment in other ways, and leaving that slight bit of intrigue. It's IMPLIED interest and not directly spoken (and woman also love that), and that intrigue is as powerful as confidently and directly complimenting her on her appearance. It's the same reason Blackdragon doesn't recommend kissing on the first date. If telling them how attractive they are makes them feel great about themselves, I'm sure kissing them on the first date makes them feel even more attractive and desired. Yet we all know it's not ideal on a first date unless she's already back at your place.
Sebastiaan Vaz 2015-03-15 19:06:37
Eugene, I agree with that leaving that slight bit of intrigue can make things more exciting for her. Like I said, non-verbally complimenting can indeed be much more powerful. But let's go back to what you just said... "Then over time I realized that all things being equal, unless I was sure the girl was already really into me, I got MORE results holding back on the verbal compliment" So you got better results, great! But do you really think that those better results came from not complimenting her, or did they came because you felt more confident because you didn't "raise her value" anymore, instead you kept that slight bit of intrigue, which means you where playing on the SAFE side by not 100% acknowledging that you indeed DO love her appearance, therefore you did not "lower your value" (in your eyes), hence you feel more confident, and THUS THAT making you more attractive? Women are primarily attracted to confidence, not to intrigue.
skills 2015-03-15 21:41:27
Sebastian is totally right, and i give my vote to sebastian, yesterday i had a onenight stand (and i am more into none verbal), combining physicality in the way of dancing ( and complimenting mix with a bit of trolling). If you are an attractive man, the compliment is sincere, from the right place and/or a complement follow by a tease (kind of what they call push pull)... Works really well, but most of the time women have their mind made up if they like you and they are gonna fuck you or not... Holding a compliment cause you are scare you will "lose her" it is very needy an unattractive behavior... I have even open "with i think you are cute/adorable/attractive and would like to know if your looks match your personality, now lets compere that to "dammmm you are HOTT" see the difference, the delivery, confidence etc... Plays a role. If you compliment a women like you want something from a place that is not authentic is not that is bad is a subcommunication of trying hard and wanting something... Do you get tired of women complementing your dick???
Parade 2015-03-15 21:51:01
This is starting to sound like an argument with a kid: "But maybe you're thinking that she's thinking that you're thinking..." ad infinitum. You can say that everyone who has seen increased results by changing to "not complimenting" was doing it wrong, and maybe they all were, but remember the goal here: Sex with women. If you're saying that complimenting a woman can be neutral or can be positive in certain circumstances, I don't think you'll find much disagreement. However, in general it doesn't work. The people who have complimented women and then stopped doing it and found their results went up is evidence to that. Maybe their frame of mind was "wrong" when they were giving compliments, maybe not, but that doesn't matter much. Their results said otherwise, and, as such, the proper advice to most people is to stop verbally complimenting women on their appearance. That said, You missed the point of BD's challenge. I assume you would say that you are complimenting women "properly", so...go on 10 first dates with women where you don't compliment them at all on their appearance, and 10 where you do. See how many in each group convert to lays. BD's logic would say the 10 where you don't would convert higher.
Eugene 2015-03-15 23:30:42
Parade just said everything I wanted to say, but better. Nothing else to add.
Sam 2015-03-16 06:06:30
I am totally with Sebastian. I always show directly my sexual interest in a woman by complimenting exactly what I like about her, while giving her a piercing eye contact and while keeping a flat tone with no enthusiasm in the way I deliver the compliment. I exude great sexuality and have perfect body language. I get laid more, if I show sexual intent. The key here is not to "hide your banana". The key is to shamelessly express your masculinity combining the following two elements: 1) A genuine direct compliment (examples of those I used include: her curves, her figure, her body, her legs) 2) Non-enthusiastic, non-nice guy delivery (as if you neutrally commented the colour of the wall) It is not the "what", but the "how" that matters.
Wils 2015-03-16 12:57:00
That was fun. I think both men raised some strong points. But I think BD's point is the side I am on. My logic are as follows: 1. Complementing a girl sincerely about something real in her appearance implies that this truly IS an attractive feature. And thus, A LOT of other people have said the same thing. People get desensitized through repetition, and thus my compliment is unoriginal, and me less memorable. 2. We can further dissect this sincere compliments about appearance thing further by asking: What if I comment on her boobs? "I really like the size and shapes of your boobs and how they look relative to your body." Or some such. Sincere, non-needy etc. It is ok to comment on facial features, but commenting on her boobs and you know this is seen by women as more "pig-ish". Unless you'd like to dispute that. So then there is a difference even in WHICH PARTS of her I compliment on. Then not all compliments, physically or otherwise, are equal. Some compliments are (falsely) perceived as more sincere. And this IS NOT due to Societal Programming on the parts of men, but Societal Programming on the women. (This is a key point in the debate I found unaddressed. When Seb points out BD's societal programming, I think it was not on point. Because it seems more like BD recognizing and working around women's societal programming; and not so much a reflection of BD's own programming.) HOWEVER, BD did not finish the debate unscathed. I know BD's choice of compliments make tactical sense. BUT, if we start caring about that, would we not be Outcome DEPENDENT? 😉 Even if just a little.
Sebastiaan 2015-03-16 13:27:22
Sam, you totally nailed it man. It's all about being very direct (which conveys masculinity), not being afraid to do ANYTHING wrong, and thus shamelessly and boldly flirting with her the very second you get to know her. This is very attractive to her, because not only are you being very charming when complimenting her, but you are also conveying lot's of confidence, thus appearing very masculine. That's all feminine, attractive women are attracted to. A masculine male. You guys should see how I shamelessly BOMBARD a stunning, beautiful girl on our first date with compliment after compliment, and STILL get laid 2 hours later.
Eugene 2015-03-16 15:10:52
"and STILL get laid 2 hours later" Sebastian, it's interesting the way you just phrased that comment You basically just said "I compliment her, and I still get lied DESPITE complimenting her". The debate isn't about whether or not you can get laid while complimenting a girl. It's about whether it works better than not complimenting her. What you just said didn't add anything to your argument, and I don't understand why you just latch on to one comment from one guy siding with you, and not acknowledge or address what other commenters have said. That's a weird way to go about things. But hey man, if it works better for you, great.
Sebastiaan 2015-03-16 15:32:08
Why would I want to address guys who disagree with me? They all have ignored my valid arguments anyways, just look at how BlackDragon has ignored every single argument of mine. I tackled every argument of his, unlike he did with mine, yet still most agree with him. You as well Eugene, have ignored my arguments in my comment to you. You do that simply because you can't believe in what I say if you have a different set of beliefs of how women work. You see, it's difficult to change somebody's view on something if their BELIEFS are messed up. Besides, why would I waste my time trying to convince everyone in here, if I at the same time can be enjoying myself with a beautiful girl in my arms? If you want to listen, great, I'll explain more. But if you're ignorant, then that's your decision, and not my problem.
Eugene 2015-03-16 15:34:50
"why would I address people that disagree with me?" I'm not sure what to say to that. Isn't that the whole point of this debate? How did I ignore your comments? I brought them up when you asked me what I was thinking when I stopped complimenting a girl, and I addressed that. Anyway, this is going nowhere.
Sebastiaan 2015-03-16 15:38:57
Now you're just picking out some sentences of what I said, and try to find some fault in that because you can't stand the fact that I'm right. You're again completely ignoring everything I say, simply because you don't have an answer to them! If you disagree with me, and you have VALID arguments, I will address your comment. How about that?
Eugene 2015-03-16 15:48:58
Man, I think you're getting a bit too defensive. My first comment, that wasn't addressing your point, and giving you a valid argument? You keep saying that people here are ignorant and ignoring what you said. I just reread their comments. You've had plenty of people that know exactly what you said, addressed it, and gave reasons as to why their experiences have been different. Why are you getting so angry?
Sebastiaan 2015-03-16 16:04:02
Alright then, I'm going to make another attempt at opening your eyes, just because I see you really need it. Let's see if you're going to get it this time, my friend. Let's go back to your first comment... First you start comparing texting (something which is extremely unnatural) to making your point clear (which I cannot even find in your comment) Then you say this: "So back to the point – what Sebastian is missing is all the negative associations she’s built up, over years and years, and through all her experiences, of creepy guys complimenting her appearance, super nice guys kissing her ass complimenting her appearance, other guys objectifying her and only caring about her appearance, etc." So that's what you call a valid argument? Didn't Sam and I just say that it's all in HOW you deliver your compliments, and HOW you flirt with her? You can indeed approach women like a creep, or you can do it like a very attractive, non-validation seeking male. I don't even want to address the rest of what you're talking about because you're just going into effects which are linked to the wrong cause, or what you're saying simply doesn't apply to what we're talking about. "You keep saying that people here are ignorant and ignoring what you said. I just reread their comments." Uhm, yeah bro. I don't know about you, but all of my arguments about why females by INSTINCT want a charming man are not tackled even one time. All of the arguments you guys came with, are simply effects linked to the wrong cause. Like for example, when women say they are attracted to a man who has humor. It's not the humor which they are attracted to, it's that women tend to find males they already DEEM attractive to be funny. Now your turn. Please state valid arguments for why you disagree with me. Oh and by the way, I'm everything except angry bro. I'm a very happy man 🙂
tshandy 2015-03-16 17:48:47
Well done, both of you. Each of you makes rational assertions; but I feel I'm missing the CONTEXT necessary to decide. I'm going to make a wild guess that Sebastiaan presents an extremely compelling figure--that his subjects usually feel overwhelmed unless he steps it down a bit; and by complementing, he steps it down and creates comfort. Caleb may be a bit more like the rest of us--and for him (and us), complementing is too-strong medicine. Human interaction is sooo based on context, it's really hard to come up with invariant, context-free propositions such as the one being debated here. Maybe the best Rx is for each of you to give the other guy some specific instructions on what to do--to see if the shoe fits on the other foot. BD's idea of repeating 10x is of course great.
buzz 2015-03-16 18:27:33
True story. Met woman online. She comes to my house. She takes her top and bra off and I say nice breasts. She says I have been thinking about getting a breast reduction because my husband likes small and perky. She is about a 38 DD perfectly matched nice light pink skin. I say just about perfect breasts please don't reduce them they match your body perfectly. She says well since you are the only one that likes them you can do anything to them you want and I am getting a blow job in less than half an hour total face time. So how would you call that one did the compliment help?
Duke 2015-03-16 18:33:14
Not a real big fan of the compliment to be honest. I'm with BD and most of the other posters; it just isn't necessary, so I don't do it. Every once and a while I use it for the fuck of it, but will do it in a non-needy, non-emotive way like Sebastian says. I'll do something like "wow, you look sexy in that out fit", while slowly doing the sweeping eye fuck with a bit of smirk on my face. Complimenting should be done mostly after you've had sex and very sparingly. Also, would add to not fall for when they fish for compliments like the forever used, "how do I look"? I always tell them that they clean up nice or something to that effect.
Sebastiaan 2015-03-16 19:34:50
Buzz, most certainly yes. Like I already said, women to feel special to you, especially feminine, attractive women. This woman obviously did not feel special at all, as her husband wanted her to reduce her boob size. You could make your non-verbal clues all night long, but in this case a sincere, specific verbal compliment was the best thing to do. By doing so you did not only make her feel more special to you, but you also made her feel much more comfortable about herself. Therefore, you got the blowjob that fast. That's also why I said: "You have to give women what they want sexually in order to get to sex with them quickly." If they don't feel comfortable, whether about you or about themselves, you can forget it. Also, if you take a look at the comment section of Blackdragon's post about "six reasons why you shouldn't compliment a woman's appearance", you'll find this comment from a lady called lifeofalovergirl: "Maybe this is why you have trouble laying women over 33. Just sayin… If someone is sure they are the hottest thing on the planet maybe telling them they are attractive is redundant but a lot of women still need to hear that. Me, I am very reluctant to get in bed with someone if I am not SURE of their attraction to me, so I pretty much need to hear on some level that they think I am hot/sexy/beautiful. That said, there are ways to come off as lame, and ways to do it right. When guys act all in awe and say “you’re beautiful” then it makes them look beneath you. When a guy says it in a way that implies he is giving you his stamp of approval it is different. So an attitude of “wow, you are so beautiful” is bad but a more “yes, you are hot/sexy/beautiful to me” is good." This woman is SPOT ON to what I've been saying all the time.
Kryptokate 2015-03-16 21:44:15
There's a simple compromise between both of your positions, which I would consider a best practice: you should absolutely verbalize that you think a woman is sexy/hot/your type, but not by way of a straightforward compliment. Examples below. But first: You need to back up and think about *why* women find direct compliments on their appearance off-putting. It is NOT because hot women know you think they're hot and it's NOT because a compliment makes you seem weaker or lower value. It's because a direct compliment on appearance is awkward and a conversation-killer. First, BD, as you've stated many times, there is no such thing as a "10" to all men. Guys have types. Some like tall leggy model types, some like petite Asians, some like enormous boobs, some like big asses, some like extremely slender slim-hipped women. The example of the chick given above with the big rack whose husband wanted her to get a reduction is a perfect example. And women know perfectly well that they play well to certain target audiences but that not every man finds them to be "their type". They want to know that they're you're type. And the more extreme or unusual a certain trait it, the more a woman is going to be insecure about it and want active validation that a guy specifically likes it. Example: I'm tall with long legs. For a chunk of men, this is a huge turn-on that they actively desire and prefer. For another chunk, they're indifferent to height so it's neither a plus or minus. For another chunk, they prefer short women but are willing to make an exception for me because they find me to otherwise be hot. And then there's another chunk who will strictly date very short women and not consider me. I *only* want to date guys in the first category. I don't want to date the guy who is going out with me because he thinks I'm hot despite being tall, I want the guy who actively appreciates my height and considers it a plus. All women feel this way about whatever traits they have that are outside of average. So, it is NOT useful to compliment a woman on something that EVERY man likes, such as beautiful eyes. No man doesn't like beautiful eyes, so it's kind of a meaningless statement, as it doesn't make her special or give her a leg up on the competition. Here are things every man likes, so there's no point in complimenting them: nice skin, shiny healthy hair, a pretty face, pretty eyes, nice perky but within-normal size boobs, a small waist. Here are things that are polarizing for men, which they either really like and prefer, or really dislike, which you should definitely compliment in order to reduce insecurity: very dark or very light hair, being either particularly tall or particularly short, particularly curly hair or particularly fine/straight hair, very large or very small boobs, a particularly large ass or small ass, being unusually skinny or curvaceous, unusually large lips, being a different race from you. Basically, the more outside-of-ordinary a trait is, the more a woman knows that it's polarizing, and she will want confirmation that you're a guy who's in the category of men who likes what she in particular has to offer. Second, indicating that you think a woman's particular traits are sexy and hot does not make you seem weak or lower value. It's a sign of high value for a guy to be confident in his tastes and actively pursue them. Don't even give this a second thought, and on this point Sebastiaan is correct. Women DO want to hear that they are YOUR type and you like what they, in particular, have to offer. THAT SAID, offering a direct compliment, i.e. "you're so beautiful," is not a good idea. The reason is that it is a conversation-killer which automatically makes things awkward and uncomfortable. Conversational statements are statements that invite a response, and this kind of statement does not do that. Everything you say should be designed to: (1) make her laugh, (2) ask her a question, or (3) provoke a response/inquiry from her. "You're so beautiful" does none of those things. What is a woman supposed to say in response?? Don't forget that we have years of training that it is NOT socially acceptable to accept such a compliment lest you be seen as agreeing with it and being conceited. So she either has to deflect or say something self-deprecating or awkwardly look away and say "thanks" and change the subject. Forcing her to change the subject is making her do work, and you do not want women to feel like they're doing work on a date -- that's a woman's definition of a bad date. A good date is one that seems effortless and "flows" because she never has to consciously and deliberately sit there and think of something to say or talk about -- her responses are naturally prompted by what you say. A bad date is one where the guy makes conversation-killing statements that don't push the conversation forward, and "you have such beautiful eyes" is a perfect example of that. I HATE when guys make these statements. And I mean I really hate it -- it feels like the guy is just purposely trying to make me feel uncomfortable and is now making me do work to try to come up with a response that is somehow graceful yet humble and where the hell do you take the conversation after that? It's a conversation killer. But, I *DO* want to know that a guy thinks that I'm sexy and beautiful, to him, and that I play specifically to his type. This is why telling a girl "you're so beautiful" during sex is perfectly fine -- because you're not having a conversation while you're fucking. She's not expected to respond. So then, it's great. You should say it with abandon. But during a conversation, you shouldn't go there. But here's the simple solution: verbalize what you think without saying it as a direct, straightforward statement to her. The best way to do this is to simply assume agreement on the matter, as if you are both already in on the information that she is hot shit, by making a statement that implies that you and she both already know how hot she is and that it's just an assumed, unquestionable fact. Humor of course is always recommended. Here are examples of explicit verbalizing without making a direct conversation-killing statement to her: BAD: direct statement that puts her on the spot to prove she's not a stuck-up bitch: "you have an incredible body." Her response: (uncomfortably) "thanks" or "no I don't, my xyz is too big/small/round/straight/whatever." GOOD: any indirect statement that does not prompt or create an expectation that she will have to respond directly to your comment: Say it someone else in her presence: (to your friend) "I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I was totally distracted by Sarah's perfect body, I'll focus this time, I promise." (here she doesn't have to do anything but laugh or internally beam) Throw it in a funny, self-deprecating comment that gives her something else to answer: "Well I was planning on getting the pasta but that was before I realized I was going on a date with a swimsuit model. Clearly I have to watch my calories if I'm going to keep up with your, what do you think about splitting the shrimp salad?" (here she only has to respond to your question about the shrimp salad) Throw it into a serious question she can answer about something else: "You obviously have perfect proportions but most clothes are designed for the average, not the extraordinary. Do you have trouble finding clothes that fit your curves/long legs/tiny body/etc?" (women love bitching about how hard it is to find clothes that fit right) Make it a challenge: "Look how tiny your hands are, I bet you can't even get your fingers all the way around my wrist." Talk to yourself out loud and congratulate yourself with an external monologue that doesn't require her to respond beyond laughter: (to yourself out loud) "damn I have good taste, look at this hottie I'm taking out" (to her) "high five!" (she'll give you a high five) There are an infinite amount of ways to do this. The point is, YES, you should verbalize that you (a) notice, and (b) love whatever particular physical attributes she has, and the more unusual or extreme they are, the more important this is to compliment them. BUT, you should not do so in a boring, awkward, conversation-destroying direct statement that forces her to directly respond to your statement and try to be humble or deflect. Make it playful, take the pressure off, and say it in a way such that the only response expected of her is laughter, silence, or an answer to a question about something else. You're welcome. 😉
buzz 2015-03-17 02:54:10
@kryptokate That was wonderful with the examples Do you have your own website?
Doubter 2015-03-17 09:37:48
Great post BD...do more of these. Boys, it's about delivery......I almost always compliment a woman on a date about her being hot or sexy or whatever, and my close rate approaches 100%. But the delivery is a tease or that I am honestly shocked that she is so good looking or so cute (because I thought she was a nerd or whatever...). And I do it directly, without fawning like I'm intimidated. BD, this is what I think you miss when you discuss this subject. It is a sexual topic, and elicits giggles from a woman done correctly......to the point that is an important part of my meet game. It's critical to communicate intent, and this is an excellent way to do it. But I would agree that if one cannot do it with amused mastery and outcome independence (gee golly u sure r pretty....), then it is a net loss. And as always, humor/teasing is critical.
Sebastiaan 2015-03-17 09:46:57
Kryptokate, I do agree with most of what you say, but some things are just dead wrong in your comment. You say: "You need to back up and think about *why* women find direct compliments on their appearance off-putting. It is NOT because hot women know you think they’re hot and it’s NOT because a compliment makes you seem weaker or lower value. It’s because a direct compliment on appearance is awkward and a conversation-killer." Again, it's all in HOW you deliver your compliment. If you would say it like "You have such beautiful, blue eyes", and then wait for her to respond, that's indeed making things very awkward. You should never say something, and then wait for a response from the girl. You should say it like you don't have any other intentions other than stating that you like her appearance, and then just continue with your conversation without expecting anything from the girl in return (a compliment back, thank you, etc). Then you say: "So, it is NOT useful to compliment a woman on something that EVERY man likes, such as beautiful eyes. No man doesn’t like beautiful eyes, so it’s kind of a meaningless statement, as it doesn’t make her special or give her a leg up on the competition. Here are things every man likes, so there’s no point in complimenting them: nice skin, shiny healthy hair, a pretty face, pretty eyes, nice perky but within-normal size boobs, a small waist." This is dead wrong. When complimenting women, you indeed need to be specific. This means that you should specifically make clear what exactly you like in her. If this is her eyes, which every other man likes, this is completely fine to say, and there's nothing wrong with the fact that every other guy has already complimented her on that. Sure it might better to be original and compliment her on something which others don't do that often, but it's everything except necessary. The girl wants to feel special to you, not to anyone else. If this means she's special to you because of things everybody else likes, so what? The woman doesn't care, as long as she's sure you're sincere and really mean what you say. Then you say: "THAT SAID, offering a direct compliment, i.e. “you’re so beautiful,” is not a good idea. The reason is that it is a conversation-killer which automatically makes things awkward and uncomfortable. Conversational statements are statements that invite a response, and this kind of statement does not do that." First of all, when delivering your compliments you do not need to receive any response to it other than "thanks". Then, you simply go on with your conversation. It is the moment that uncertain males start complimenting a girl, and then WAIT for her to respond to it. That makes the moment so awkward. Again, it's all in HOW you deliver your compliment. You don't need any type of response when giving a compliment. You just say it to make her know that you really like her, and then continue the conversation like usual. Then you say: " Everything you say should be designed to: (1) make her laugh, (2) ask her a question, or (3) provoke a response/inquiry from her." This is dead wrong. Why would you want to make her laugh? Sure it will make her feel more comfortable, but there are other ways to do that, and making her laugh won't increase your chances to sex at all, making her smile does. Asking her a question is even worse. Women don't like men who ask too many questions, women want a confident man who makes statements all the time, rather than questions, as it appears much more dominant, hence masculine. You can easily say “You’re so beautiful” to a woman you're dating, at any point of the date, without making her feel uncomfortable, by keeping these reminders in mind: - Never wait for the girl to respond to anything that you say. Deliver your compliments/statements, and go on with what you we're talking about without waiting for a response from her. - Always say it with piercing eye contact and a sly smile on your face - Make sure that you bring it in a way that she really knows you're being sincere, like holding her hands while saying it, and of course piercing eye contact. - Never to feel ashamed or intimidated, and to never take back what you just said.
Kryptokate 2015-03-17 10:48:51
@ Sebastiaan We're in agreement that the problem with these compliments is the delivery, not the fact of communicating appreciation for a woman's appearance. Saying "you're so beautiful" and then just sitting there, staring at her, waiting for a response, is a conversation killer, and that's the way a lot of guys do it. I had a boyfriend that did this all the time despite my obvious irritation with it (I would respond "ok" or roll my eyes or once said "so are you supposed to be a mirror or someone I talk to over this meal?"). This habit decreased my attraction for him a lot. The other thing is that besides being awkward, once you've made it clear to a woman that you think she's hot, it's also just very boring. I know that it is not boring for *you* to just stare at her and enjoy her looks, but it's boring for her. Anyway, we're in agreement that this is not really about the substance of the statement but the delivery. I totally disagree with you about making her laugh. Tons of guys who aren't otherwise necessarily attractive get laid because they're funny...stand up comedians do very well for themselves and I've known fat guys, short guys, etc, who still get lots of chicks solely because they're funny. I've slept with guys who I wasn't otherwise physically attracted to because they were so funny that being around them was just so enjoyable and I didn't want it to end. Everyone enjoys being around a funny person -- but of course this only works if you're actually funny. Clearly you work the intense, smoldering, foreign-accent guy angle, and I'm sure that works well, but there are other ways to play things and funny game is strong game. Honestly, I don't even know if the super serious Mr. Intensity thing would work without either an accent or being extremely good looking. Most guys will do much better going with funny. Also disagree about asking questions. BD covers this elsewhere, but girls only hate being asked boring resume-questions that make her feel like she's being interviewed or interrogated (questions about her job or history etc). Girls LOVE fun/random/hypothetical questions. P.S. I forgot the best line you guys can use to compliment someone on a first date, and this one is perfect because it tells her she's hot, it's funny, it demonstrates mastery of teasing, and she doesn't have to do anything but laugh and maybe punch your arm and tell you gigglingly to shut up: wait til she says or does something you disagree with...let's say she says her favorite movie is some movie you think is terrible. Your response: (teasingly feigning shock and shaking your head) "I can't believe you have such terrible taste. It's a good thing thing you're so gorgeous, or I'd have to end this date right now." She gets to laugh and defend her favorite movie, you made your point without requiring her to address it, and it doesn't stop the flow of conversation.
Sebastiaan 2015-03-17 13:09:06
"The other thing is that besides being awkward, once you've made it clear to a woman that you think she’s hot, it’s also just very boring. I know that it is not boring for *you* to just stare at her and enjoy her looks, but it’s boring for her." That's because of your experience of how you where complimented. If you are complimented in the right way, you'd find it everything except boring, my dear. "Tons of guys who aren't otherwise necessarily attractive get laid because they’re funny…stand up comedians do very well for themselves and I’ve known fat guys, short guys, etc, who still get lots of chicks solely because they’re funny. I've slept with guys who I wasn’t otherwise physically attracted to because they were so funny that being around them was just so enjoyable and I didn't want it to end. Everyone enjoys being around a funny person — but of course this only works if you’re actually funny." This is a classical mistake which most women make, and as you can see in the comments here, most guys as well. You're simply linking an effect to the wrong cause. In this case, you think lots of women go to bed with guys who are funny, simply because they are funny. This is not the case at all. You didn't sleep with those guys because they where funny, you slept with them because they made you very feel comfortable because of their humor. You see, it's the comfortable, enjoyable feeling you got as a result of their humor, that you went to bed with them. Not the humor itself. But there are lots of other ways to make women feel comfortable, and humor is a great way, but certainly not the best. For example, by just being very comfortable yourself, women, and everyone else, eventually will be comfortable as well as emotions are contagious. "Honestly, I don’t even know if the super serious Mr. Intensity thing would work without either an accent or being extremely good looking. Most guys will do much better going with funny." Looks don't really play a role considering a man is confident, charming, and responsible. An accent simply shows confidence, as males with accents tend to travel a lot, hence it appears confident. But again, you don't need an accent to appear confident. There are tons of other ways to do that. "Also disagree about asking questions. BD covers this elsewhere, but girls only hate being asked boring resume-questions that make her feel like she’s being interviewed or interrogated (questions about her job or history etc). Girls LOVE fun/random/hypothetical questions." True, but it's everything but necessary. Asking some questions to show your interest in her is fine, but not necessary at all, and it's always better to make statements than to ask questions, as I just explained. Once you got a natural mindset you don't need to remember any styles, or lines to say, as you'll naturally be attractive. That's the type of game I use, and teach.
Kryptokate 2015-03-17 14:24:34
@Sebastiaan Having very high social IQ and confidence, and being able to make others comfortable with the contagiousness of your comfort with yourself, is definitely super effective. But guys who are looking for advice on women do not generally have that level of confidence and social skill yet, so it isn't practical advice they can put into effect. You have to achieve some success by applying techniques that work before you become confident (otherwise it's feigned confidence and people see through that). BD is saying just don't compliment women, because it's something a lot of guys screw up, and it's easier to give them the practical advice to just avoid the landmines entirely. You're saying it isn't the substance of the compliment, it's the delivery, which is true. But your practical advice about HOW to deliver it is basically just to be super awesome and confident and the type of man a woman will already be attracted to. I'm saying that isn't helpful to guys who aren't already confident. Practical techniques and lines are a straightforward path to follow...give the compliment, just not directly and not in a way that creates an expectation of response or leaves an awkward silence. Once someone has done it enough times, it becomes intuitive and they don't have to think about these things. Totally disagree that looks don't matter and that confidence overcomes them. The ONLY thing that will overcome looks for me is humor (and it's just a mitigating factor that will cause me to dip a point or two below my normal physical attractiveness threshold, it's not going to overcome looks entirely). Admittedly, I think I am both more looks-oriented and more humor-oriented than most women, but I'm not that far outside the normal range. And anyway, humor conflates with both confidence and intelligence because you have to be smart to be funny, and you have to have some level of confidence in order to deliver humor effectively, with the presumption that what you're doing/saying is funny.
Amanda 2015-03-17 18:27:14
I have to agree with BD on this one. I realized my boyfriend never told me "you're beautiful" or anything like that until after we had started dating. This was intriguing to me, because most guys will say it right away. It also had the effect of raising his value in my eyes. Is it flattering to be told how pretty you are? Of course! But it doesn't make me more attracted to a guy, and may even have the subconscious effect of reducing attraction for the simple reason that it makes me feel like I'm the one in control, which is not what I want. Plus, if it's what every other guy does, it doesn't make the one I'm talking to stand out. And, in the case of my boyfriend, he didn't HAVE to tell me he was attracted to me - I knew it from his body language and the fact that he was focused entirely on me. The fact that he didn't say it gave him an air of mystery, with no hint of desperation, and that piqued my curiosity and made me want to get to know him better.
Sebastiaan 2015-03-17 22:01:29
Kryptokate, If guys reading my advice don't have the confidence to follow it, then they should first work on that, as confidence is the biggest determinant to whether a woman will sleep with you or not. They shouldn't follow some advice which is easier to follow, but produces less results, just because it's easier. First things first. Amanda, If you find your boyfriend's value raised after he didn't compliment you on your appearance, wait until you meet a guy who does boldly compliment you the way I have been describing, and see if his value didn't raise even higher in your eyes. The way you describe how you feel in control after receiving such compliments already tells me that the compliments given could have been delivered much better, because if it is done in the right way the guy will still appear as the most dominant of the two of you. An attractive man doesn't compliment you to make you feel better, he does it because he just appreciates your beauty and therefore says it, but he will never put the woman on a pedestal just because of her looks. A man can still stand out from the rest when saying: "You are just very beautiful" considering he does it very attractively. It's all in the HOW, like I said many times. I never said a man HAS to verbally say he's attracted to you. I said there's nothing wrong with it, that's all. I have to admit that some mystery can be attractive, yes. But to not compliment a woman just to appear mysterious is just stupid in my eyes.
Amanda 2015-03-17 22:34:33
Sebastiaan - Yeah, looking back at the times I have been told this on first meeting it always did come across as at least somewhat desperate/hopeful. It could very well have been the way it was said, rather than the words themselves. I can see how it could be said from a place of assertiveness rather than neediness - it just must not be very common! Interestingly enough, my boyfriend says it all the time now that we are together ... I have no idea if he purposefully avoided saying it beforehand. (Hmm ...) Then again, he has a strong, independent attitude, and neediness doesn't factor into our relationship at all, so there's that. We don't live together, only hang out on weekends and keep our finances separate, and have no plans to marry (not knocking marriage; I've just never seen it as part of my future and am too busy with work and my fish tanks anyway!).
Sebastiaan 2015-03-17 22:59:07
Nice to have you agree with me Amanda, something most guys on this blog have a hard time doing. You just described exactly why your boyfriend doesn't seem any more unattractive when complimenting you, as he is doing it, like you said, from a strong, independent attitude, and that neediness doesn’t factor into the relationship at all. I hope some others will also see the light, and if they don't, well they don't! Lol.
Jon 2015-03-18 10:38:05
Nice to have you agree with me Amanda, something most guys on this blog have a hard time doing. You just described exactly why your boyfriend doesn’t seem any more unattractive when complimenting you, as he is doing it, like you said, from a strong, independent attitude, and that neediness doesn’t factor into the relationship at all. I hope some others will also see the light, and if they don’t, well they don’t! Lol.Read Amanda's comment again more closely. Basically everything she said proved Blackdragon's point. Guy's who compliment right away seem desperate/hopeful. Just like BD said. Her boyfriend compliments her now that they're together, which is exactly when BD said it's OK to do it. THAT'S why he isn't perceived as weak for doing so, not because he deliverers the compliment the "right" way.
Sebastiaan 2015-03-19 14:58:14
Jon, please don't tell me to read Amanda's comment more closely if you can't read closely yourself. I already countered every argument you stated in your comment.
Dennis 2015-03-23 12:26:01
I'm late to the show but I'd have to give BD the win based upon his extensive experience, the experience of all his PUA friends and my own experience. Real time experience rules. I've also read Anton's book. Anton is an excellent, entertaining and convincing writer. Most of Anton's book has to do with how to become a dominant alpha man who is not afraid nor ashamed to take what he wants. He advocates letting women know your sexual intent right away by your actions, body language, confidence, etc. He's also adamant about only fucking beautiful woman. Anton focuses only on real time pickups and scoffs at online.
Dennis 2015-03-23 13:20:15
In addition I forgot to add that Anton's book spend a lot of time and chapters explaining how woman think and why and how it relates to the biological differences between men and woman. What @Krytokate wrote above could have been taken right out of Anton's book @Sebastiaan defending yourself against everyone who disagreed with you is very beta. You explained your opinion in the debate and that should have been it.
POB 2015-03-24 21:14:38
First date with a girl you barely know: 1) Talking about appereances is just empty and shows you probably do not have enough culture, life experiences or a good personality. Its never about societal programing, its about showing what you are about. And yes, I dont care about what she whants pre-sex because I dont know her (and she does not know me either). So, why bother? 2) Pretty boys do care about looks because they depend on it to score chicks. Most betas dont have good looks so they just go with the emotional crap. Confident men dont give a shit about what other people think about them. They just know they can give any woman a genuine good time by simply being themselves. 3) Womem are insecure because men and society make them feel that way. When they are with a confident man they relax and just behave in a natural way. If you say anything about her appereance you will make her focus her attention on that and not in what you whant, which is to make her relaxed and attracted to you. So yeah, you are loosing points. Give this one to BD. It's never a good idea to make a woman doubt herself.
POB 2015-03-24 22:45:14
Bottom line is Sebastians way might work, but it is a harder path that is clearly not achivable right away for most guys. BDs way is proven and effective for everyone on all levels, so it's easier, at least as a starting point. My way has always been: - pre-sex, just avoid the subject - post sex (2 times minimum), do as you please in a non-needy way
Bad Social Conditioning And It's Horrible Effects On Dating 2015-03-25 01:16:27
[…] I actually had a whole discussion about this issue on another blog. This guy seems to pretty much know what he talks about, but is dead wrong with his advice on this topic. It’s hilarious to read as I have stated exactly why what he says is nonsense, yet still he somehow can’t let go of this belief. You can find that article here. […]
CJrulez 2015-03-25 05:28:11
Let her know she's having an effect on you. It's key that she thinks it's something that she did that had an effect on you (i.e it's her fault). Don't give her a compliment. The key is the way you say it.
Ron Gordon 2015-04-02 21:57:33
I agree with both BD and Sebastiaan. When I was in high school, college and up til mid-20's I naturally used Sebastiaan's way and got good results (not so many) but good enough. Now in my 40's I occasionally use compliments on younger women and it works well to break the ice, but I will try to revert to BD's way and not overdo it. My sense is that Sebastiaan's way works better for good looking guys who already have game and can use any random method and still do well; while BD's method is slightly more helpful to the underdog player dude who is trying to punch above his weight. It is an advantage to be able to control your emotions to the woman and make her feel perhaps confused or intrigued about a guy who can talk to her and escalate on her without being a traditional romantic.
It-Began-In-Africa 2015-04-10 04:33:28
The other day I tried a little experiment based on what BD regularly teaches. After making sure she noticed that I saw her, I approached a hot woman in a furniture store. I smiled and said 'hello, I am sure you have heard many guys tell you how beautiful you are and it must really make you sick to your back teeth to hear more of such rubbish.... (pregnant pause)... so may I ask what your advice would be to a guy who wanted to spout that same remark when they saw you...? She laughed out so loud, and when she'd composed herself, she volunteered to explain another time. To prove her sincerity, she gave me her number. Now, gentlemen, I am not interested in an intellectual debate with this pretty young woman when I see her. Thanks for this debate BD, you rock as always!
donniedemarco 2015-09-17 19:03:32
"I stated very valid arguments which have everything to do with the instincts of women, unlike some theories you got from experience." LOL this is completely backwards. Whatever your source for "the instincts of women" happens to be, real-world metrics will always trump it.
Why You're Nervous Around Beautiful Women 2015-09-21 19:59:13
[…] How do I know? I debated one of them about it on their very own blog. […]
Palmasailor 2017-02-17 21:26:07
Agree with BD Blowing up their ego is a DLV and it doesn't get you laid. Don't compliment AT ALL
elijah 2017-02-22 17:37:24
I notice this debate seems couched entirely in the terms of the initial seduction phase, pre-sex. What about during sex? I only ask because, if you google it, literally 100% of women will say that during sex, it's incredibly important to compliment her body so she can feel comfortable. Literally all women seem to believe, at least, that this can have a major impact on their ability to relax and orgasm, and reaching orgasm every time is a key block in your system. Thoughts?
Blackdragon 2017-02-22 23:22:21
What about during sex?During sex, none of this applies. People are very different during sex than outside of sex, and most people understand that.
if you google it, literally 100% of women will say that during sex, it’s incredibly important to compliment her body so she can feel comfortableOnce again, it doesn't matter what women say they want!!! All that matters is what actually works in real life. https://blackdragonblog.com/2015/05/04/ignore-what-women-say-only-watch-what-they-do/
jack gignac 2017-03-28 14:27:30
yo bd gorging your blog as we speak for me, I haven't found compliments hinder or dampen my chance of sex. I just say them when I genuinely feel them. compliments that are very specific to her though help my case I think this is because they usually perceive as high value so liking something specifically to her makes the interaction more precious than just another notch kinda vibe
johann sebastatian was a good composer 2017-05-04 07:35:41
The programming has come to run so deep that a) A fair share of females in dating sites will report a male if he writes something complimentary of her body features, ticking the "harassment" square in the report form. Wait, there is more b) A non-minuscule share of females in dating sites will interpret as complimentary of her body features messages that in fact are not, proceeding as in a) This, while they are all fixated on looking as bodily attractive as possible, as it has ever been, and shall be so long as there is competition for partners. Cognitive dissonance is never a hindrance. We are heading toward a time where you'll have your profile suspended if you compliment a woman's appearance, or write something that, under the pressure of her unconscious, she has the will to misread as a compliment of her appearance.