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How Women View Friend Zone
-By Caleb Jones
I am now going to show you a ghastly representation of what friend zone really is, and how women view this one-sided and abusive relationship. It's from an article here, and you'd better make sure you have a strong stomach before reading it. It's written by a woman laying out the 14 reasons why having a platonic guy friend is better than having a boyfriend. This woman is not an outlier. Many of the points are ones I've seen repeated by many other women over the many years I've been discussing these topics. I'll discuss the highlights.
He’ll honestly tell you what that dress looks like on you. Someone who is trying to get in your pants will never be completely honest about how the pants actually look on you. Whether your ass looks absolutely fantastic or like a pancake, your male best friend has no reason to lie to you.
This is a classic example of women not understanding how men work (or perhaps knowing it while secretly denying it).
Listen to me very closely: If you're a woman and you have a platonic guy friend, he wants to have sex with you. (Unless he's gay.)
When you say that, women explode with defensiveness. "No he doesn't! No he doesn't! We're just friends! He likes me for me!"
Wrong. He may also "like you for you," but he still wants to have sex with you. Tom Leykis actually did a bit on his old radio show where he would conference call in a doubting woman and her platonic male friend, and ask the guy flat-out, "Do you want to have sex with her?" Every time the guy would say yes, to the shock and horror of the woman.
So because your pussy, beta, platonic guy friend wants to have sex with you whether you admit it or not, he has all kinds of reasons to lie to you about how you look just like any other bastard of the male persuasion. Thinking you're actually going to get objective feedback regarding your physical appearance from your horny, non-gay, platonic guy friend is woman logic in the extreme.
I love to be wined and dined as much as the next girl, but certain unavoidable limitations arise when you know your date is paying for your meal.
Just to be clear, by “certain limitations,” I mean I can’t order the $50 steak I want without looking like a total douchebag. If my best friend is paying for my meal, it is only because I left my wallet at home and I’m paying for his the next time we go out.
Are you 100% sure about that, Darling?
If I invisibly followed you around with a clipboard and tracked the exact number of times your friend zone orbiter bought you food or drinks and you never paid him back, do you really, honestly think it would be zero?
We both know the real answer.
You can be disgusting in front of him.
... I could not care less whether or not my best friend wants to boink me. In fact, I would prefer he didn’t want to boink me at all. With this understanding of mutual un-attraction, we are free to do gross things, like burp and fart and talk with our mouths filled to the brim.
She still thinks he doesn't want to have sex with her. But whatever, does that sound fun to you, gentlemen? Do you like being around a woman who "could not care less if you want to boink her?" Do you like hanging around women you want to have sex with who fart and burp and talk with their mouths full, while behaving like pretty ladies with the other men they hang out with they actually want to fuck?
Oh yeah. Sounds like a great deal for the guy, doesn't it?
Now, for the most delusional and insane of them all; something she's already said twice but is now going to triple-down on; something that sums up the entire friend zone concept for women:
He genuinely likes you for your awesome personality.WAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!
It’s not your awesome rack or fantastic smile that interests him, it’s just you. Your relationship with your guy best friend has an inherent level of depth because it has nothing to do with physical attraction or appearance. He genuinely loves you because of your character.
Oh, dear. Sorry about that. Ahem. Okay. I'll try to continue without laughing. It's going to be tough, but I'll try.
Ha. Heh heh.
You know, there are times where I honestly have to wonder. When women proudly say such ass-backward, obviously false things like this with such confidence, do they really believe it? Do they indeed delude themselves so thoroughly as to think black is white and up is down? Or are they just putting on this false front to look cool to themselves and to their girlfriends? (Considering they look like morons to us when they say these things.)
Honestly, I don't know. But either way, it's sad as it is pathetic, both for the men in these abusive relationships and the women living their entire lives in a self-delusional, "he doesn't care about my rack" la-la land. How many millions of women out there with drooling, friend zone man-wimps really think that men have the ability to shut off their hard-wired sexual desires just because they're "friends?"
The cognitive dissonance is simply stunning.
By the way, I use the word "friends" here in the loosest possible sense. It would be more accurate to describe it as a parasite/host relationship.
Want some more? Okay! Let's get to another way she abuses you if you're dumb enough to be in her friend zone:
You don’t have to worry about annoying him.
If your boyfriend doesn’t respond to a “get up, let’s get breakfast” text, you might hesitate to call him 37 times and finally resolve to show up at his front door to physically wake him up yourself for fear that he might think you’re crazy and obsessed with him and be left with no choice but to dump you.
As mentioned earlier, your best friend does not have the luxury of dumping you when you annoy the sh*t out of him.
Isn't that nice? She can happily harass you, "annoy the shit out of you," and she knows you'll put up with her abuse because you're her little puppy dog who will obey even if repeatedly slapped.
Does this sound like a mutually beneficial relationship to you? What do you get out of it you can't get from a guy buddy? Honestly.
Or does it sound like, yet again, a great deal for her and a raw deal for you? Especially when you compare it to the guy in her life she's actually having sex with.
You don’t have to buy him gifts for random bullsh*t holidays.
From Valentine’s Day to the one-month anniversary of the day you started dating to the four-month anniversary of the day you first kissed to the five-month anniversary of the day you first met, relationships are filled with plenty of bullsh*t holidays for which you are forced to come up with sweet, thoughtful gifts. There is one holiday that forces you to buy a gift for your male best friend, and that is his birthday. No need to slave over a cute little scrapbook or heartfelt letter; just buy him a gift card or a bottle of his favorite liquor and you should be good to go.
I don't ever expect women I'm dating to buy me gifts, but that's not the point. Again, she accurately demonstrates how she treats the man (or men) she's having sex with much, much better than she treats you, her slobbering little puppy dog. Doesn't that make you feel special?
As mentioned earlier, your male best friend is not interested in your rack.
Ha ha! Ha! <cough! choke!>
Oh my. There she goes again.
Uh huh. That's right, genius. Your non-gay platonic MAN friend has zero interest in your tits whatsoever. He wants all
other women's tits, but not yours. Yeah. Um hm. No please, continue with your Solomon-like wisdom.
He’s also probably well aware you guys have a 0 percent chance of having sex tonight. This gives him no choice but to listen to what you have to say.
Read that one again. Seriously, read it again.
At the start of this article, when I said this was an abusive relationship, did you doubt me? Did you think something like, "Oh c'mon BD. Friend zone isn't abusive. You're overstating it."
If you thought that, do you still think that after reading the above quote? Really?
Do you want some more?
“Watch a movie” takes on a whole new meaning when it involves my male best friend, as I can pick a movie I want to see and, get this, see it. Furthermore, I can do it in the comfort of my ugliest sweats and both my retainers in without any sort of sensual thigh rubbing to distract me.She gets to watch the movie SHE wants, and the guy friend, well, if he doesn't like it, that's his tough shit. Her company should be reward enough.
You never have to feel self-conscious about your body.Again she looks like shit when she's around you, but looks like a perfect sexual princess when she's around the guy she's having sex with, or at least wants to have sex with, which isn't you. And she still repeats the bullshit that you don't want to fuck her, which of course you know you do.
No matter how confident we are with our bodies, we all have those “f*ck! I forgot to shave!” and “ugh please don’t touch me there” moments when with our significant others. Your best friendship, free from any sort of physical attraction to begin with, automatically marks all of these insecurities as null and void.
Again I ask, does this sound like a good deal for you? How is this relationship not abusive?
1. Never agree to friend zone with a woman you're attracted to even a little bit. Friend zone should only be for A) other men and B) women who are so ugly or old that you would never consider having sex with them.
Because I know someone will try to bring this up in the comments, the one exception to this rule is if you have a platonic female friend you use as a wingman or a pivot who actually gets you laid. That does not mean she introduces you to other hot girls. That's not getting laid. Getting you laid means she regularly brings women into your life whom you put your penis inside. Too many guys try to give me the excuse by saying they have a hot, platonic female friend whom they use to meet other women. Bullshit! It only matters if you're actually having SEX with these other women. And we both know you aren't.
2. Feel free to educate women to the two realities they deny. A) Her friend zone guy DOES want to have sex with her, likely very badly, regardless of how strongly she denies it or how much the prospect damages her fragile ego. B) Platonic friend zone is an abusive, one-sided relationship where she receives far, far more benefit than the man does, and the man suffers sexual frustration where she does not.
Friend zone. Don't do it.
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Giacomo 2015-04-02 05:58:04
Women are guardians of sex,men are guardians of commitment. Don't give away your commitment for free.
JJ Roberts 2015-04-02 06:18:09
Excellent post. Dude, I totally have to do a podcast interview with you when I get the time. It will have to wait until after I have read your book so I can formulate some proper questions. My take on the friend zone (and why men don't have one) I wrote a while back but you might like it: http://sexthreepointzero.com/2012/07/15/understanding-the-friend-zone-and-why-men-dont-have-one/
Chuck 2015-04-02 06:33:28
He’s also probably well aware you guys have a 0 percent chance of having sex tonight. This gives him no choice but to listen to what you have to say.There’s so, so much gold right here. Normal logic would dictate that if he has no chance of sex, he’d have nothing to lose. In reality, however, SHE doesn’t want sex with him so she doesn’t care what he thinks, and her sky high outcome dependence puts her into an IDGAF mindset. Total relationship power. With a guy she wants sex with, she has to watch herself. That is her complaint that runs through the whole article. Be that guy, and women won’t cause problems in your life. Because they will give a shit about getting/keeping you. Drama from women is optional. Always.
Troubadour 2015-04-02 06:46:43
Best thing I ever did was tell friend zone attention parasite chick to fuck off. She really got a lot out of my free validation, too. She actually turned her shitty life around, because I thought she had some value that she didn't see in herself. It would have been fine as an uncle/niece kind of platonic mentor/pupil thing or whatever, it would have made the world a better place. But I wanted to fuck her, and she knew I wanted to fuck her, and after she knew I wanted to fuck her, she kept pumping me for validation while doling out little morsels of false hope to string me along. Of course the unemployed loser psychopath she was fucking gleefully didn't have to give her any validation to get the poon. He gave her a cause, and a mission in life, to support his ass. I got sucked into that cluster fuck very, very deep, even though I knew better. I still think about that girl. I actually do miss her friendship a lot, but it was a poison pill. Oh, and most of my platonic friend chicks are chicks who want to fuck ME, but I'm not that desperate. Nobody ever talks about female orbiters, but they exist. I'm married to one. Sigh. My last kid just turned 18, and I feel superhuman. I'm going to take the money I used to spend on her therapist, and fuck a good looking whore with it every month.
Atlanta Man 2015-04-02 06:51:36
That should have had a "trigger warning" , it was more brutal than mexican cartel videos on LiveLeak.
Bulma78 2015-04-02 07:38:53
Most girls can be such mooches when it comes to money, attention and otherwise. This story upset me – I agree, guys should not be hanging around girls like that. For a girl to think he’s not attracted to her? So clueless, actually, so foolish. Personally, I wouldn’t want to waste my time hanging around with a guy unless we are sleeping with each other because that is one of the most fun parts. This is exactly why I have zero guy friends - pointless!
ricerocket 2015-04-02 07:54:47
This brings back so many memories of so many times that I let, no allowed myself to be put in the friend zone.. What a pussy.. As a man, with wisdom and reflection, what a degrading place to be, as everything in this article points out. Never again will that happen to me, don't let this happen to you guys. BD, keep up the amazing work you do, for the benefit of the rest us on the path...
Artbeast 2015-04-02 07:59:19
I dunno BD. I had a very delicious looking woman friend years ago. We met, I liked her, wanted to fuck her and on our first get together I kissed her and it felt like I was kissing my sister. That totally blew up the wanting to fuck her. We became really close friends, best friends. In fact, at one point she wanted to live in Australia where she could get a high paying nurse job and she offered to support us. So, having experienced true friendship with a woman who was totally hot by any male standard, that I did not want to fuck... I disagree with your comment, "If you’re a woman and you have a platonic guy friend, he wants to have sex with you. (Unless he’s gay.)" I am also not gay. Life is not always as black and white as you seem to view it in this matter BD. Just because you have not personally experienced it BD, does not mean it is not true, even though a lot of the things you do say are totally true. That was over 20 years ago. I was in my 30s and total horndog. Some things never change 🙂 I have always been really clear about my boundaries with women. If I am interested in them and they just want to be friends, I cut them off. So, you may have noticed in the beginning that I said "had" a.. woman friend. One day an ex boyfriend came to her home while she was having a garage sale, shot her and killed her. The event totally hurt me for many years. What eventually came out of that was I started a company that became really successful because of that.
CT 2015-04-02 11:24:06
Oh, and most of my platonic friend chicks are chicks who want to fuck ME, but I’m not that desperate. Nobody ever talks about female orbiters, but they exist. I’m married to one. Sigh. My last kid just turned 18, and I feel superhuman. I’m going to take the money I used to spend on her therapist, and fuck a good looking whore with it every month. So your wife wants to fuck you but you don't want to fuck her. Instead, you would rather get sex once a month from a hot hooker. More power to ya, mate, but I've seen plenty of older married couples that got divorced as soon as their oldest kid left home. They felt like they did their job (raising kids) and now want to move on with their own personal lives. Something to consider.
Blackdragon 2015-04-02 11:41:19
I wanted to fuck her, and she knew I wanted to fuck her, and after she knew I wanted to fuck her, she kept pumping me for validation while doling out little morsels of false hope to string me along. Of course the unemployed loser psychopath she was fucking gleefully didn’t have to give her any validation to get the poon.Great summary. That's exactly how it works.
Just because you have not personally experienced it BD, does not mean it is not trueAs I've said a thousand times, there are always rare and bizarre exceptions to every rule. Sometimes long-term monogamy works, sometimes friend zone is fine for a guy, and sometimes people win $100 million in the lottery. Does that mean you should attempt these things and expect them to work? No. The exception proves the rule.
Doubter 2015-04-02 12:02:39
Both barrels.......emptied. The hard, brutal truth is there in black and white; nicely written BD. Reminds me of one of my current girlfriends......men fall all over themselves around her and she believes they all want to be friends with her because that's all she wants to be with them. Always giving her things and doing things for her.....and she thinks they don't want to fuck her. But I always say thank goodness for clueless guys like these......makes life easier for those of us with some actual game.
Wils 2015-04-02 12:11:07
Interesting how this entire article is ME ME ME (HER HER HER). Without next to zero respect or consideration to a fellow human being that she called a "friend". And lines like "He’s also probably well aware you guys have a 0 percent chance of having sex tonight. This gives him no choice but to listen to what you have to say." seems at odds with the spirit of the article. Doesn't it imply the guy HAS thoughts of sex BUT know he has no chance, so therefore has no choice but to stay and listen? If the guy in question is as she said, not interested in her physical at all, why would she even say that very line? (And "no choice" is delusional... the guy can get up and walk away, go home. The guy deserves this "friend" zone if he doesn't)
josh 2015-04-02 12:44:38
So, this video is an old classic by now, but a couple of guys went around on a college campus and asked men and women if men and women could be friends, and if you read BD's article, you can guess how it went, though these guys did grill the girls a bit about their answers, and it is pretty funny and illustrates what's going on in this post very clearly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjFWLVPfoHQ
Duke 2015-04-02 12:50:38
A lot of the stuff you mentioned in your post sounds like some marriages. Maybe modern day marriage is friend-zone 2.0?
Jack Outside the Box 2015-04-02 14:17:17
There is no such thing as the friend zone. No woman who doesn't see you sexually is your friend. Friendship is predicated upon respect. For women, respect and sexual arousal are one and the same, as far as the opposite sex is concerned. She respects you to the extent that she is sexually aroused by you. She thinks you are sub-human garbage to the extent that she is not sexually aroused by you. For the feminine, just to acknowledge the masculine is to be sexually drawn to it. If she is not sexually drawn to you, she doesn't acknowledge you or see you. This sexual arousal is not necessary to respect other women, or for men to respect other men, because one sex can relate to its own sex simply by being a member of that sex themselves. But any and all opposite sex gender relations are based on either mutual sexual arousal (respect) or slavery (disrespect). [b]Notice, I said sexual arousal, not having sex.[/b] Many women - gold diggers - have sex with men whom they are using in the same way that they are using their non-sexual male slaves. So a woman fucking you is NOT evidence that she respects you. Evidence that she respects you only presents itself as her being sexually aroused by you. So how can you tell that she is sexually aroused by you? 1. She has sex with you 2. She frames the sex as her receiving and you giving. If she doesn't have sex with you, or does but frames it as her giving and you receiving (with the implication that you need to compensate her like a provider), she's either a gold digger who thinks you're garbage, or (if she's not sleeping with you) a platonic parasite who thinks you're garbage. Remember, not sex, but sexual arousal from the woman = respect and friendship (with benefits) from her. Learn this well men! Learn it well. Make sure you're giving, not receiving. Have them chase you. Don't chase them like you want to receive instead of give, and then expect them to switch roles in bed. It won't work.
Blackdragon 2015-04-02 14:22:59
GREAT VIDEO! A perfect companion to this blog post. Notice how uncomfortable the women get when it's made clear it's a one-sided friendship. WOMEN ALREADY KNOW IT IS, but don't care, and don't want to talk about it.
Interesting how this entire article is ME ME ME (HER HER HER). Without next to zero respect or consideration to a fellow human being that she called a “friend”.I think that is the default thought process of a woman with a guy in friend zone. It's about her, not him. If it was about him, she'd have sex with him, because that's what he wants (and based on the video above, she knows it).
A lot of the stuff you mentioned in your post sounds like some marriages. Maybe modern day marriage is friend-zone 2.0?I just got off the phone with a long-distance FB who will be visiting my city soon. She asked if I wanted to hang out with her when she comes and of course I said yes. Then she said, "But what if I don't want to have sex?" I responded that I did not want to hang out with her if that was the case. When she started sputtering, I said, "Because you're a woman, you either won't understand this or won't want to admit this, but when a man spends time with a woman he wants to have sex with but can't, it's not pleasant for him. It's great for her, but uncomfortable and frustrating for him." She immediately turned around and began to heavily imply that we would indeed be having sex when she visited (which we will). My point here, based on your point, is that this "hanging out with guys who want to have sex with me but can't" applies not only to friend zone, but also to long-term marriage, hanging out with ex-boyfriends, and also with going out on dates with new men. If she makes you wait 4 or 5 dates before you have sex, all that nonsexual time is fun for her, so she automatically thinks it should be fun for you too. It actually sucks for you, but women either don't understand this or do understand but don't care. So yes, this friend zone dynamic extends to all kinds of areas outside of just friend zone. It's whenever a woman thinks "I like spending time with you without sex. If it's uncomfortable or frustrating for you, I don't care, that's your problem. Spend time with me anyway." It's not just one-sided. It's abusive.
[b]Notice, I said sexual arousal, not having sex.[/b] Many women – gold diggers – have sex with men whom they are using in the same way that they are using their non-sexual male slaves. So a woman fucking you is NOT evidence that she respects you. Evidence that she respects you only presents itself as her being sexually aroused by you.Great point! (In the future, use pointy brackets > not hard brackets ] for formatting.)
Tony 2015-04-02 16:41:56
The thing is that some women out there get really pissed off when you talk about the friendzone. If you even say the word they act like you said Hitler had the right idea. I find this comic amazing. There are people who actually agree with it.
Tony 2015-04-02 16:44:43
That link doesn't seem to have the full comic. A little harder to see here, but she goes on a rant about how horrible nice guys are at the very end.
Drexel Scott 2015-04-02 17:00:13
It is impossible to tell whether women realize the extent of their self-deception. It's like an ouroboros, the snake which eats its own tail. I have discussed this with enough of them to know that some have a vague idea that perhaps things are not as they're making it out to be, but the solipsistic walls of the female mind quickly close in on the discordant thought and bring her back to la la land.
Duke 2015-04-02 18:31:49
Also would like to add that your post reminded me about something I read from Susan Walsh, a female game blogger at a site called hooking up smart. I like to read up on these blogs to get insight into all the female rationalizations out there. She would advise women to weed out guys that wouldn't hang out with them unless there was sex involved. That way women could end up with the docile and compliant men (slaves) that could be manipulated by monogamy into LTR or marriage. She's right I guess, that is what they will end up with.
Blackdragon 2015-04-02 19:17:08
She would advise women to weed out guys that wouldn’t hang out with them unless there was sex involved. That way women could end up with the docile and compliant men (slaves) that could be manipulated by monogamy into LTR or marriage. She’s right I guess, that is what they will end up with.Of course she's right, as I indicated above. That's exactly what provider hunters and women over age 33 do. They screen for guys who will buy them dinner 3, 4, 5 times before sex, and screen out the guys who want sex before then. That guy who's bought you dinner five times without pushing for sex will make a great, compliant, submissive, beta male husband who will pay your bills and kiss your ass (until you divorce him seven years later that is). So yeah, it "works."
rgz 2015-04-02 23:36:31
If you're a 40 year old dude and want a 35 year old gf, what are you supposed to do? It seems like the deck is stacked against you.
evilwhitemalempire 2015-04-03 02:48:12
Friend zoning is where a female uses a man by leading him on and then employs the fiction, that he 'agrees' on as a prerequisite to be with her, that his interests are purely platonic as a defense against any accusation hurled her way (by him or anyone else) that she's leading him on.
evilwhitemalempire 2015-04-03 03:00:51
"It is impossible to tell whether women realize the extent of their self-deception." ---------------- And unless you honestly expect females to ever be held accountable for their actions it is pointless to expend time and energy trying to ascertain it. Emotions and self deception are best understood as merely a different WAY to think. And the only 'right' way to think is the way that best serves the DNA. Don't think of females as human, think of them as Blade Runner style androids with way too much autonomy built in.
evilwhitemalempire 2015-04-03 03:19:51
"So how can you tell that she is sexually aroused by you? 1. She has sex with you 2. She frames the sex as her receiving and you giving." ------------------------------ First off whether or not they WANT sex from you we still pay for it (one way or another) so who cares whether they 'want' it or not. Secondly, yes females sometimes enjoy to fuck and other times they only enjoy to get paid. But most of the time they enjoy BOTH (and in the same instances). This false dichotomy stuff has got to end folks.
Blackdragon 2015-04-03 09:52:59
If you’re a 40 year old dude and want a 35 year old gf, what are you supposed to do? It seems like the deck is stacked against you.Why? Getting a GF is the easiest thing in the world. Take her out to dinner a few times and promise her monogamy. Boom, done. Now if your goal is to get to sex very fast (3 hours or less) and very cheaply ($20 or less) with an over-33 woman, that's where you'll run into problems. But getting a girlfriend? Pssh. Easy with those types.
Dubls 2015-04-03 10:38:45
First of all Mr. BD you are on point as always. I decided not to move on this one girl because she's a coworker and a virgin. I would hate for things to get weird at work (FYI she's not above or below me in terms of title), and I don't want to be her first for fear of her becoming too attached. Now I know what women say they want and what they actually want differs, but I actually believe she's looking for a boyfriend to be exclusive with considering she's just now separating from a highly religious upbringing in which she dated men for 1-2 years and never fucked. There is definitely sexual tension between us. I catch her checking me out and we sometimes we hang out outside of work. Is the relationship I've chosen for us to have damaging me in some way? I don't see it. And I'm moving on other women in my life. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.
Blackdragon 2015-04-03 16:11:43
I’d be curious to hear your thoughts.Don't fuck women you work with and please avoid asking off-topic questions.
Dubls 2015-04-03 19:31:08
Thanks? I thought I was on-topic but go ahead and remove my post if you think otherwise.
Blackdragon 2015-04-03 20:26:19
You're asking for seduction advice. Not on-topic to friend zone. I don't remove comments (unless someone egregiously violates the rules).
Stingray 2015-04-03 23:36:16
Hey BD, great article. This is mind blowing and eye opening. Sometimes these are things that people unconsciously know, well at least for me. It was until reading this article that made me go "hey, the reason I was being so nice to whichever girl was because I want to fuck them." For those girls that I have not even a slight interest, I wouldn't go out of my way, not even slightly.
It-Began-In-Africa 2015-04-04 12:21:41
Spot on BD, spot on. I suspect that you are not surprised this is one of your most commented upon posts. There's plenty of men walking around with resentment and despair at women in general because they simply allow themselves to be 'friendly'. A man who is a woman's time-whore loses his self respect and fire. The best friends a man can make are with other men. Men who have self disciple, honour, loyalty, and don't suffer monthly breakdowns in their abilities to see the job done. Women are excellent companions, (not friends), and of course bring a wonderful feminine energy to balance out the masculine. Great work BD, keep it up as always.
Parade 2015-04-05 10:49:44
There's a difference between being friend zoned with a chick you want to fuck, and a chick you don't. The problems arise when you spend time with a chick you want to fuck, but can't. There is no problem if you're friends with someone who is attractive but you, for whatever reason, don't want to fuck them. But do be honest with yourself if you actually want to or not.
Blackdragon 2015-04-05 11:06:34
There is no problem if you’re friends with someone who is attractive but you, for whatever reason, don’t want to fuck them.If they're attracted to you, you do want to fuck them, at least on a purely physical level.
POB 2015-04-05 14:14:38
A couple of days ago I told a FB of mine that I've already had sex with almost all my female friends. She went crazy of course. Women cannot fathom why guys are what they are, and why they feel heavily attracted to us when we behave like....men. My point is that if you are attracted, and she's attracted too, she can be your FB. Friendship WITH sex. And it'll always works wonders for both of you guys (at least untill she demands to be THE ONE). No point being friends with a woman you want to fuck. Think about it: it's like a meat lover eating every day on a vegetarian restaurant. Makes no sense!
Parade 2015-04-05 19:51:38
"If they’re attracted to you, you do want to fuck them, at least on a purely physical level." I can recognize an attractive dude, it doesn't mean I want to have sex with him on any level
Blackdragon 2015-04-05 19:53:51
I can recognize an attractive dude, it doesn’t mean I want to have sex with him on any levelCompletely different on a biological level, and you know it.
AB 2015-04-06 12:43:48
What I've learned to do with women, and what I hope they would do with me as a man as well, is accept that we think differently. I will never understand how a woman thinks or what it feels like to be a woman. I know the way they generally behave and that they certainly do not value the same things that a man does, especially in regards to relationships. That doesn't make them better or worse, but just different. I don't always understand it, but I accept how they are. This has helped me infinitely in my relationships with women. My expectations are realistic. So, when I hear women in very long term relationship, who is not longer sexually active with her partner, say that she is "still very attracted to him", I know she doesn't really understand how a man thinks. Almost all women I've talked to or read about in sexless long term relationships with reported no libido say something about how attractive their partner/husband still is (obviously some men really let themselves go and that's on them, but I'm talking about the standard situation where a woman becomes less and less interested over time). There is a disconnect here. They say they are "very attracted", but do not act. That does not make sense to a man, at all. If I'm attracted to a woman, such as the woman I'm with, then I want to have sex with her. I don't have one without the other. But, I understand now that women don't think that way. It may be that they are in denial when they say this and they just don't want to be mean, or they may genuinely feel that way and can aesthetically be attracted to a man (or emotionally, or both), yet feel no drive towards him. It really doesn't matter in the end though. When your friend, girlfriend, or wife says that she finds you very attractive, but doesn't act on it, it means nothing to a man. I think all men in this situation just assume they are lying, because that does not make sense to a man at all. They assume she isn't attracted, which really she isn't if she would be honest with herself, at least in the way that matters to a man. When she says she's attracted to you, but doesn't act, then for all intents and purposes, she's not attracted to you. You are a friend at this point. You're more like a good friend / family lover and you'll likely never return or enter the real attraction zone of that woman again. I think guys need to realize that too. Once you're a friend, that's it, it's over. Don't waste effort. Don't internalize it. She's not being malicious. There is nothing wrong with you. This is just biology and how it goes. So yes, husbands are definitely 'friendzoned' by their wives. I believe this to be a normal thing. It doesn't make anybody malicious or better/worse. It's just life. As BD basically says all the time, if you have realistic expectations of relationships, then you will be happier long term, regardless of how you choose to date.
cheryl 2015-04-06 23:31:58
@AB you are truly a nice guy. I'm sure you will take some slack for this post and maybe for having a woman reply to it but I just wanted to say thanks for making a point that not all women are mean and malicious in our actions, sometimes it just is what it is, on not meant with any agenda...so thank you at least from me.
Greg 2015-04-07 05:24:04
Then she said, “But what if I don’t want to have sex?” Why would she say that? Was it to test your masculinity to know whether to have sex with you? Was she pushing for a monogamous relationship? Did she really not want to have sex with you? Will the sex be good, or will it be her price for your companionship? Is she no longer attracted? I'm asking because that proposal is a huge turn off to me, I would feel like having sex with someone who is actually willing, not someone who has to push through it. Plus, she's an fb. What time together?
It-Began-In-Africa 2015-04-07 11:26:21
@ Cheryl & AB. Here are some questions. Given this fairly reasonable explanation of how women's thinking manifests in relationships that are disadvantageous to men, what is to be done and gained beyond mere acceptance? Are some men justified in promoting the (probably) malicious notion that women are no more than infantile adults, a species that is not quite child, but not wholly grown? How can men be expected to grant serious responsibility to partners who may say one thing, while meaning the opposite? What caused this rather dubious development?
Blackdragon 2015-04-07 15:18:54
not all women are mean and malicious in our actions, sometimes it just is what it is, on not meant with any agendaIrrelevant. Tell a woman who's crying and in pain because her husband just cheated on her, "Hey, it just is what it is, it's not meant with any agenda, it's just how men are." Won't help her, will it? That's my point. People shouldn't lie to, abuse, or use people. Doesn't matter why they do it, or what's in their heart when they do it.
Then she said, “But what if I don’t want to have sex?” Why would she say that?Because she's a Dominant who really likes me. She's just being her Dominant self and attempting betaiztaion.
Will the sex be goodI'm a super high sex drive man. Therefore all sex is good. Assuming the woman is physically attractive of course (and this one is).
or will it be her price for your companionship?As long as A) the sex costs me zero money and B) she doesn't give me any drama, then I don't care what her reasons are. She's an FB.
Is she no longer attracted?In this particular case, she is extremely attracted to me. However, you're right, in many cases a woman would say this because she is no longer attracted.
I’m asking because that proposal is a huge turn off to me, I would feel like having sex with someone who is actually willing, not someone who has to push through it.I've never, in my entire life, had sex with an FB or MLTR who was "unwilling" or even reluctant. That sounds very, very creepy. The last time I had sex with a reluctant woman was many years ago when I was monogamous and married. (Just ask any guy who's been married well past three years and they'll tell you all about it.)
Plus, she’s an fb. What time together?Fucking and talking for a little bit. Talking with an FB is allowed. We're not going out on any dates if that's what you mean. That's for MLTRs and OLTR only.
How can men be expected to grant serious responsibility to partners who may say one thing, while meaning the opposite?To me, it's not an issue of responsibility, but one of power. I will never give a woman power over my sex life or my finances, and one of the reasons is exactly what you and AB are describing. If she says, "Promise me monogamy and promise you that I will have sex with you four times a week for the next 40 years straight," I can't give her that power over me if what she MEANS is "I will have sex with you four days a week until I get sexually bored with you which will be some time in the next three years." The same goes for financial matters. Example, "Don't make me sign a prenup, and if we get divorced I promise I won't go after your money." That's what she's saying, but is it what she really MEANS in a masculine, English-language context? Nope. Women can have all the responsibility over their own lives that they want. I have no problem with that. But they can't have power over me. I'm asking for future trouble if that's the case. (Just ask any married or divorced guy.)
Parade 2015-04-08 07:42:54
Completely different on a biological level, and you know it. Not really. I don't have any desire to have sex with every single attractive woman I see...there are some that turn me off, maybe because of her personality (too prudish? Too dominant?) maybe because of her looks (beach blonde?) I can still recognize that she's attractive in general, and attractive to other people, without having any desire to get in her pants. Now, I wouldn't remain friends with a chick purely because she was attractive -- she'd have to bring something to the table, of course. This might be a difference between a HSD person like yourself, and a relatively LSD person like me...I don't have much real desire to look for a partner until I've been without sex for at least a week. And even then, I don't go out of my mind, it just gets me looking to setup dates. (It should be noted that I'm ok with sex more often, but I just don't feel the need, and sex every day gets a bit...tired)
It-Began-In-Africa 2015-04-08 11:07:52
Ah BD, your point about power is a total bullseye! Just because they sleepwalk into these power dynamics which they instinctively deploy in ways that harm brothers, does not mean we must be complacent. Thank you once again, your views are worth their value in gold.
Blackdragon 2015-04-08 11:12:37
I don’t have any desire to have sex with every single attractive woman I seeNot that you see walking down the street, no. But as a man you will have sexual desires, to some degree, for any attractive women you hang out with regularly. It can't not happen.
This might be a difference between a HSD person like yourself, and a relatively LSD person like meI agree that your overall sexual frustration level may be a little lower than a man with a higher sex drive than you in a friend zone circumstance. However, unless you're gay, you're still a man, and you're still a sexual creature. As I talk about in my Alpha 2.0 book, to deny this about yourself and to make excuses is to invite all kinds of unhappiness into your life. So even if you have a lower sex drive, you will still have clear, strong sexual desires for an attractive woman you hang out with regularly, period, no matter what. There are millions of lower-sex-drive betas in friend zone right now who secretly burn with desire and frustration, at least to some degree. Having a lower sex drive does not solve this problem.
Ah BD, your point about power is a total bullseye! Just because they sleepwalk into these power dynamics which they instinctively deploy in ways that harm brothers, does not mean we must be complacent.Correct. A lot of women use Cheryl's point: "We don't mean to be mean. It's just how we are." The reasons why you abuse someone doesn't matter, and you as a man should not assume a woman won't be problematic just because she doesn't mean to be. (Just like a woman should not assume the same of a man, particularly when it comes to monogamy and cheating.)
Amanda 2015-04-08 23:20:53
I definitely had a lot of these types of "friendships" when I was in my late teens/early 20s. At that age, I didn't realize how frustrating it must have been for them. But at the same time, I have to wonder, why did some of them wait so long to let me know they were interested in being more than just friends (in one case, two years)? For me at least, once that "friend" switch is flipped, it's highly unlikely I can change direction at a later point and suddenly become attracted to someone. I know some people can do this, but I can't imagine it's common. That's not to say all my past relationships have been with guys I was immediately attracted to, though - but the key difference is that the guys I ended up dating made their intentions known early and clearly, and I found that highly attractive. In fact, I've dated some pretty average-looking guys who won me over with their assertiveness, resulting in a very powerful sexual attraction on my part. Interestingly enough, that's exactly how my dad attracted my mom, despite his less-than-stellar looks (she was a former beauty queen and he was a dorky guy with thick glasses and a perm)! I wonder if attraction to different personality types/assertiveness levels has a genetic component, or if it's just psychological (i.e. what they always say about women being attracted to men whose personality is like their dad's). Perhaps the friend-zone guys assumed all women are intuitive, and thus they didn't feel the need to communicate their intentions. Maybe most women are, but I'm certainly not (although my intuition has improved over the years as a result of experience).
cheryl 2015-04-09 07:08:48
BD I never said we are mean just because we are.I think you are twisting my words. I said or let's say what I meant was unless she is a mean self centered person and gets joy from seeing how far she can push a man, she doesn't friend someone with the intention of causing him frustration.If that is the case all men should run from her and fast (unless one enjoys that type of frustration) I personally do not. It gives me no pleasure to hurt someones feelingS. Not even an ounce but we al know people men and women who get an ego boost from such actions. I do think its possible for men and women to hang out, I have such a friend since 5th grade til this very day. We did attempt more and it was awkward (we both agreed ) laughed about it later and knew it wouldn't work. I think he's a good looking man and he has said the same to me (although I think he is being very kind) I feel very lucky to have him in my life, we share any problem, laugh a lot and wouldn't trade or urt him for the world. Maybe its just luck just as those 1 in a million marriages that last for 60 yrs and they still continue to hold hands who knows. All I meant to say was if its very frustrating then go on with your life and don't put yourself in that position, noone wants to be secretly dying inside while the other person is happy, of course iits not fair. I just don't think a lot of women are aware how men feel,sometimes. Tell her if she doesn't reciprocate move on. I don't think you guys know how often you do the same, keeping a girl around as she in her mind is crazy about yoU, as well. usually the differnce is she wants more then just to sleep with you,she actually enjoys your company..but there is always the hot chick that you chase (complain when she treats you like crap but she's hot so....)
Blackdragon 2015-04-09 09:55:52
I have to wonder, why did some of them wait so long to let me know they were interested in being more than just friends (in one case, two years)?Because they're betas. Most men are. Around 70%.
once that “friend” switch is flipped, it’s highly unlikely I can change direction at a later point and suddenly become attracted to someone.Exactly. Which is why men shouldn't do this. I hope you men reading are paying attention.
I meant was unless she is a mean self centered person and gets joy from seeing how far she can push a man, she doesn’t friend someone with the intention of causing him frustration.I know that's what you said. And I said it doesn't matter.
I do think its possible for men and women to hang outOf course it is. I'm saying it's a bad idea for men to do so.
I have such a friend since 5th grade til this very day...and he wants to fuck you.
We did attempt more and it was awkwardAwkward for you.
(we both agreed )Of course he agreed with you. He's a beta. If he tries to fuck you and it's awkward for you, it will be awkward for him. Doesn't mean he dosn't want to fuck you. You just proved he does.
I feel very lucky to have him in my life, we share any problem, laugh a lot and wouldn’t trade or urt him for the worldYet you are. If I got a few beers in him, attached him to a lie detector in a room far away from you, promised him 100% confidentiality, and asked if he wanted to have sex with you, not only would he say yes, but he would say "Yes, BADLY." I know you don't want to hear that, and I know you're going to deny that, but it's the truth. You're hurting him.
Tell her if she doesn’t reciprocate move on.Yep! That's exactly what your guy-friend should do to you. But he's a beta, so he won't. It's sad. Again, I hope you men are paying very close attention here.
cheryl 2015-04-09 21:18:23
I hope they are too..
Bruce 2015-04-18 01:23:20
...you get friendship, but you can get that from men and/or ugly or too-old women you have no desire to have sex with, and thus experience none of the above problems.I agree with a lot of what you say, BD, but I can't get on board with this. At least not entirely. The argument seems to be based on the premise that all friendships are equal; or at least that they all bring approximately the same qualities to your life. That one friend can be exchanged for another with no consequences; no shift in quality. I don't think that's true. I have a female friend. She's hot. She's sexy. I'd sleep with her in an instant. But she's made it quite clear she isn't interested in me that way. Now, according to you, I'm on the wrong side of an abusive relationship. According to you, I should ditch her. But you know what? I've no intention of doing that. Here's why not: 1. She makes me laugh. A lot. More than anyone I know, man or woman. That's worth something in my book 2. She challenges me and makes me think. A lot. That's also worth something. 3. She knows I fancy her. I don't have to lie about it. We laugh about it. We talk about it honestly. It doesn't get in the way. I don't have to lie, or pretend. That, too, is a good thing. 4. She's a writer. I'm a writer. We write together and share our work with each other. She has a perspective I can't get from random "men and/or ugly or too-old women". 5. She knows I'm not her puppy dog. She knows I'd just laugh at her and/or tell her to fuck off if she tried to take advantage of me the way you describe. She can ask me for things because she knows I'm able to say no to her. Without that basic understanding, the friendship wouldn't work. 6. Point 5 notwithstanding, I help her out with favours, as she helps me out. As I help out my other friends, male and female, and as they help me out. These are things friends do for each other, and sex doesn't (or doesn't have to) come into it. I'm secure enough in myself to be able to do these things without expecting sex in return. 7. Most importantly, I'm secure enough in my masculinity to be able to be friends with her, despite fancying her, without needing to have her suck my cock in order to inflate my ego or assuage my insecurity. (I actually have quite a few friendships of this type with women - I'm only describing this particular one to illustrate my point, not because it's vanishingly rare.) I don't doubt there are loads of guys in the kind of friend zone relationships you describe. I know some myself. What troubles me about your analysis is the implication that all friendships between men and women where attraction is present are transactional. That sex is the only valuable currency. That without sex, such friendships are inherently abusive. This obviously isn't the case where friendships between guys and guys and guys, or guys and too-old/ugly women are concerned, and it really doesn't have to be between men and women when attraction is present. I'm troubled that your solution is for guys to banish such women from their lives, when the answer is obviously for guys to improve themselves. To overcome scarcity mentality; to become secure enough in themselves and sufficiently outcome-independent that they can engage in such friendships, with all the value they contain, without needing the validation of sex and without allowing themselves to be undermined by their unrequited feelings. Your solution strikes me as both destructive and reductive. I know from personal experience that better answers are available.
Blackdragon 2015-04-18 14:28:09
The argument seems to be based on the premise that all friendships are equalNo. My premise is based on the fact that a platonic friendship with a person you badly want to have sex with but can't will cause some level of angst, outcome dependence, and self-esteem damage (even if just a little bit) regardless of the other benefits you receive.
According to you, I should ditch her.No. According to me, you should not have entered into this platonic friendship in the first place. Now you're stuck with two bad options: stay, which is bad, or go, which is also bad. They're both bad; I would still go, yes. I wouldn't delete her from my life, but I would definitely stop spending one-on-one time with her. Why not spend time with a) guy buddies and b) hot chicks WHOM YOU'RE FUCKING?
1. She makes me laugh.A man can't make you laugh? An ugly woman can't make you laugh? No person you'll ever meet in the future will make you laugh as much as her?
2. She challenges me and makes me think.A male friend can't do that?
4. She’s a writer. I’m a writer. We write together and share our work with each other.You can't meet any other writers who are men? Or unattractive women? Or attractive women you're actually having sex with? This one hot girl whom you can't fuck is the only writer out there, huh? Do you actually hear yourself with these excuses you're making?
What troubles me about your analysis is the implication that all friendships between men and women where attraction is present are transactional. That sex is the only valuable currency.I don't believe that at all. What I believe, and I'm right, is that you suffer some amount of angst with friends like this that you wouldn't be suffering in friendships with men or unattractive women. The important point: Just because you're not a slobbering beta male full of oneitis for your hot platonic female friend doesn't mean bad things aren't happening internally to your subconscious and your frame when you're spending time with such a woman.
I’m troubled that your solution is for guys to banish such women from their livesI didn't say banish anyone. I have 2 or 3 hot platonic female "friends" that I still talk to via texts or Facebook sometimes, but I don't spend any one-on-one time with them. I like to be happy, not sexually frustrated, not even a little. If I want social time I'll spend time with family, work guy buddies, or women I'm having sex with. You can still be "friends" with a woman like this without hanging out one-on-one in person all the time. That's what you shouldn't be doing.
Bruce 2015-04-18 15:25:02
Do you actually hear yourself with these excuses you’re making?And do you actually hear yourself with these judgements you're making? For all the sharpness of many of your observations, when it comes right down to it you have an extraordinarily myopic view of human connection. My life is indubitably better with this woman in it than without. I'm in no doubt whatsoever that I'm happier and more fulfilled with her in it, and I've tried it both ways. If I were a slobbering beta it would be a disaster. As I am, it's a positive enhancement. Besides which, you talk as though I had no other friends. As I say, my friendship with her isn't unique - I just offer it up as an example. I have lots of friends; both men and women. Some make me laugh. Some offer intelligent, challenging discussion. Some are writers. Some I fuck. Some I don't. All offer value, and I don't discard or disregard people who bring value to my life lightly. Especially not simply because they choose not to offer sex, which is, after all, only one particular type of value among many. This woman offers value of a quality that you're in no position to judge, not knowing either her or me. I actively seek out intelligent, independent, free-thinking people as friends; again, both men and women. I try not to judge the body such attributes arrive packaged in, or what the owner chooses to do or not do with it. I simply don't befriend people who play the kind of games you seem to regard as inherent in male-female friendships. I'm discerning, highly selective, and operate on a level of intelligent engagement that is not readily available.
You can’t meet any other writers who are men? Or unattractive women? Or attractive women you’re actually having sex with? This one hot girl whom you can’t fuck is the only writer out there, huh?Ah, there's nothing like a few good old straw men when you're floundering, is there? Perhaps you could point to where I said those things, because I don't remember doing it. I have friends of all the types you list. This woman, in the humour and intelligence departments, stands head and shoulders above them all. Again, you seem to imagine all people are of equal quality. That, frankly, is bullshit. It appears from what you're saying that you wouldn't 'hang out' with a woman even if she had Einstein's brain and Oscar Wilde's wit... not if they came packaged in a hot body which she refused to fuck you with. That's just cutting off your nose. Perhaps you need to be a little more selective in the company you keep. You might begin to appreciate people for the things they might have to offer parts of you other than your cock.
Just because you’re not a slobbering beta male full of oneitis for your hot platonic female friend doesn’t mean bad things aren’t happening internally to your subconscious and your frame when you’re spending time with such a woman.And just because bad things might happen to your subconscious and your frame in such a friendship doesn't make it universal. Common, perhaps, but not inevitable. If it's a problem for you, do the emotional work... It's hard, but it can be done. Maybe the truth is you aren't quite as secure in yourself as you like to imagine. I'm not, here, questioning your path to happiness. If it works for you, great. But that doesn't mean there aren't limits to your thinking.
You can still be “friends” with a woman like this without hanging out one-on-one in person all the time. That’s what you shouldn’t be doing."All the time" are your words, not mine. My life is rich and full. I choose to make space in it for people of exceptional quality. That seems like something worth prioritising; perhaps the only thing really worth prioritising. You seem to struggle to grasp this concept of quality in people - or at least you only seem able to perceive it in sexual terms, at least when it happens to be a woman you're attracted to. Perhaps it's time you started thinking about Alpha 3.0.
Blackdragon 2015-04-18 17:46:37
I don’t discard or disregard people who bring value to my life lightlyThat's not my recommendation, as I said twice, but at this point you're not listening. The antagonistic and defensive tone of your comments makes it clear you have a much higher tolerance for unhappiness than I do. Then wonderful, go forth and do whatever you like.
Bruce 2015-04-19 03:35:09
Pots and kettles, Blackdragon, pots and kettles.
Dawson Stone 2015-04-20 22:43:36
@AB I am sorry but your position seems to sound like you think it is totally reasonable that a women marry a guy and never (or rarely) have sex with her husband. I actually agree that men aren't better or worse than women but a man that accepts a horrible deal is an idiot (anyone who accepts a horrible deal is). Let's get married, promise monogamy in exchange for frequent sex and then expect the monogamy without the frequent sex. And while it might be the case that a woman may think her husband is attractive that is NOT the same thing as being attracted to him. A woman that is attracted to her husband wants to fuck her husband. She isn't lying...she is just conflating the words attractive with attracted. TOTALLY different. And while I am sure there are woman that lose attraction to their husbands to the point of not wanting to have sex with them any longer (the same happens to many guys...especially if their wives don't take care of themselves or just treat them badly) if a woman's husband does take care of himself and has a decent relationship with his wife they can have an active sex life. Not as active as a single guy, but still decent. And I don't know why you seem to think this is one sided. I think the reality is that a man is simply more willing to fuck a woman he isn't as attracted to than a woman is (I am obviously generalizing here). The saying goes, "No matter how hot a woman is somewhere there is a guy that is tired of fucking her." Homo Sapiens have been around for about 200,000 years. For 199,000 of them we lived to be about 30. Till death do us part...no big deal if you live to be 30. Different story if you live to be 80. Men tire of women. Women tire of men. It goes both ways. IMO men just have a higher tolerance (on average) for having sex with someone that is less than ideal. @Bruce First let me say you are a very smart guy and make excellent points. I love that. So rare these days. I will take 100% of what you say at face value all the while knowing what people often say versus what they really feel and think are often very different. For the purposes of my points it won't matter. 1) First there is a HUGE difference in my mind between a woman I think is attractive and I would have sex with her versus a woman that is stunning/gorgeous. I can totally be friends with a 7. She's not ugly...many guys would find her quite attractive. If she had a lot of other stuff to bring to the table I could totally be friends with her and to BD's point not feel like I was missing out on anything because she is at or below any woman I would normally hang out with. If she is a 9.5 (IMO no such thing as a 10) no way we are going to be friends. It would be excruciating. If Emily Ratajkowski (stunning woman from Blurred Lines video) was also super smart, interesting, fun, etc. and wanted to be just my friend I would never let that happen. It's not even that she couldn't be a good friend. In fact, if she was a great friend that would actually make it worse. Your thoughts on this point are actually excellent. But let's assume your friend is an 8. Hot by most guys standards. That's a tougher call. I am with BD and I wouldn't do it. But if she really had a ton of other things going for her that she brought to the friendship...perhaps with an 8. 2) I don't want to put words in BD's mouth (so BD please correct me if I am not capturing your intent) but I think the point he is trying to make (albeit perhaps with more edge than intended) is about the power dynamic. You have intentionally put yourself in a position of weakness. And to BD's point you now have two bad options. Let me draw an analogy that is different but similar to your situation. When I have been someone's boss at work I can be friendly but they don't become a close friend. The reason is simple...horrible power dynamic. Can I ever really be sure they just want to be my friend? I decide on their promotions, raises and bonuses. They want more from me than I want from them (in a similar way you want more from your female friend). It simply cannot be a balanced friendship. I did actually become friends with someone that was below me in the org chart but didn't report directly to me and I thought he was an awesome guy. Once I changed jobs and I had no influence over him we became literally best friends. Our relationship can be balanced now. If you have ever spent any time around someone insanely rich or famous you see this very starkly. They can never know who their real friends are because the power dynamic isn't in balance. 3) One of your best points: "I actively seek out intelligent, independent, free-thinking people as friends; again, both men and women. I try not to judge the body such attributes arrive packaged in, or what the owner chooses to do or not do with it." I totally agree with you. In the same way I do not pick my friends based on race, religion, ethnicity, etc...I make a value-based decision based on who they are as a person and not based on a bias about what might be generally true about a group of individuals. Let's be honest, how many Victoria Secret super models are also insanely intelligent, emotionally brilliant, fun, fair, laid-back, etc.. I would guess somewhere between zero and well, zero. For every person it is different. I am not as black and white about it as BD. It comes down to being honest and self aware. If I could be friends and not have it be painful for me to spend concentrated time with a woman, I would totally do it. As I said, I can do it with a 7 no problem and I have in the past with 8s. I simply couldn't (maybe I am not evolved enough) be friends with a 9.5. 4) OK even though I said I am going to take everything you say at face value I am going to backpedal just a bit. It is scientifically proven that we assign higher values to more attractive people. They call it the "Halo Effect." Even in court cases more attractive defendants get lighter sentences than uglier ones. I am sure if you polled the juries ZERO would have any idea that was what impacted their decision. Your friend may be intelligent, a good writer, funny, etc. but do you even allow for the possibility that you might be assigning her higher values due to her attractiveness? 5) There is one interesting thing about your situation that occurred to me. If you two were about the same age when you first became friends it could be interesting to see how it plays out over time. If you became friends when you were both 23 (her value at its peak and yours near its lowest) when you are 45 your value will be near its peak and her's on a very steep decline. I will leave with one interesting perspective from a woman's point of view. Start at 4:06. She can be verbose but makes the point.
Wolf 2015-07-05 18:37:51
I've never been friend zoned by a girl I've wanted to fuck, I've inherently known that allowing that shows a lack of self respect. I do have a female friend where the relationship is actually equal and respectful. We've helped each other on building projects, we take turns with shouting dinner for our respective families, she pays her way. She's a country girl though, knows how to live and work along side men. She doesn't send mixed signals or play games. I respect her more than any male friend I've ever had. We've been alone and shitballs drunk together and never had one moment of sexual tension. This is why I agree with blackdragon. Holding onto a friendship where you subjugate yourself for .00001% chance that she'll let you fuck her is masochistic. Its not HER fault. That pathetic behaviour is why she doesn't respect you enough to fuck you in the first place. Do yourself a solid and learn to take no for an answer, and move on. Assuming you screwed up the courage to hear the no in the first place. Be strong. That being said
K 2015-08-15 07:14:51
@Wolf Huh? I have respect for plenty of men and women for a variety of reasons, doesn´t mean I want to fuck them. While I can fuck men I have little respect for, if I´m horny or they´re good at it. @everyone interested While I agree it´s excruciating to be friends with someone you are simultaneously sexually attracted to (this happens to women as well as to men; though I guess more frequently to men as (usually) men are attracted to a greater quantity of women compared to the quantity of men women feel attracted to) and in such cases I wouldn´t recommend anyone to maintain such friendship, I have the following story on friend zone to share: Once I met a guy whom I found very interesting and fun to talk to. After our first encounter, I remember thinking, just after we said goodbye, "such a great man, what a shame I don´t like him physically at all". For the next 2 months, we both worked intensively but found an afternoon each weekend to meet up. Mostly we went for walks and chatted. I told him very early on I didn´t want to date anyone as I chose to go through a "recovery" period after a previous long and troubled on-and-off relationship. He didn´t seem to mind and continued to show interest in me as a person. Already knowing that "guys can´t be friends with girls", I expected his interest to fade eventually but still enjoyed our walks and conversations. After those 2 months, I started doubting: Maybe he isn´t physically into me after all? Maybe I´m not his type? To my surprise, I suddently realised I was in love with him. Or lust, at least. I was 27 and this hadn´t happened to me before. In the past I always felt attracted from the first minute, if not, there was no chance of me developing it later. So it happens for the first time and, Murphy´s law at its best, the guy probably doesn´t want me. I didn´t know how to feel: Guys generally find me attractive so I had problems to maintain friendships with them in the past. Now finally I had a chance of having a real guy friend. But I was attracted to him... Decided to take it as it is and stay friends with him, ready to accept the unreciprocated attraction, so he and I could be friends. Fortunately, when push came to shove, he turned out to want me too and even expressed the wish to have a monogamous relationship and a family later on. 2 years later, we´re together, dealing with some issues but they have nothing to do with sex. I wouldn´t say I´m in love with him currently but I am still sexually attracted to and aroused by him. This doesn´t change. (Naturally, it may change in the future - BD would say it will for sure.) Maybe because I have a pretty strong sex drive..? Ah yes, the issues relate to the fact that I don´t like being bossed around, told what to do and how to do it (better) and also because I would like to stay financially independent. He´s by far richer than I am - which I didn´t know until about 9 months into the relationship - but still wants to join our resources and be "a family". But we are looking for solutions together, so far with partial success. Yes, in a differently structured society, we would both probably be sleeping with more people (he rejects the idea when I bring it up, but come on... his sex drive may not be sky-rocketing but it´s certainly not low). I am attracted to him, doesn´t mean I don´t find other men attractive too. Whether I sleep with them or not, is a matter of choice. Right now my stance is: Why would I want to destroy this relationship, or any other good relationship I may have in the future, if he and I break up over the above-mentioned predicaments, by doing that? What can possibly outweigh the benefit of having a friend and a lover in one person? (Possibly having two or three friends in two or three lovers, but at least in my whereabouts that´s even more difficult to achieve than one friend in one lover. Personally I don´t know anyone who´d have that.)
Edward 2016-07-12 19:23:48
How would a girl react if you are the one who decides to put her in your 'friendzone'? Would it generally increase attraction and heighten your perceived value, since it appears that you have taken the initiative to set the relationship status between you and her?
Blackdragon 2016-07-13 10:39:37
How would a girl react if you are the one who decides to put her in your ‘friendzone’?If you put her in friend zone, YOU are in friend zone. If you're spending time with a woman you want to have sex with and don't, you're in friend zone. And no, this will not build attraction. It will make you look like a pussy and will eventually bore her, forcing her to go find some cock somewhere else.
Ich _ 2016-09-06 06:31:01
Listen to me very closely: If you’re a woman and you have a platonic guy friend, he wants to have sex with you.(Unless he’s gay.) When you say that, women explode with defensiveness. “No he doesn’t! No he doesn’t! We’re just friends! He likes me for me!” Wrong. He mayalso“like you for you,” but he still wants to have sex with you.All this stands 100% true swapping man with woman. Plus, if they (man or woman, doesn't matter) end up by never getting what they want, you'll have to stand their their letting out their frustration in disgustingly hypocritically manners (hypocrisy needed since a) they do all of it unconsciously, as it has to be; b) they really don't want you to realize why they are so mad, even in the remote chance they have some awareness of it). Inter-sexual friendship is a pitiful farce as soon as one of the two had more than it in their hopes. Which means practically 100% of times.
Niteride Mick 2017-02-04 10:19:53
Hey BD what about social meets I used to play social squash ,tennis mixed teams meet some hot sorts single and married shag a few , hanging out with blokes all the time can be quite boring Like the social scene Its a way to meet ladies ,network and you get invited to parties dinners etc plus I like meeting new people find what makes them tick !!
Blackdragon 2017-02-04 21:29:49
Hey BD what about social meets I used to play social squash ,tennis mixed teams meet some hot sorts single and married shag a fewThat's social circle game. If that actually gets you laid, go for it. I'm more talking about spending one-on-one time (or close to it) with platonic women.
Daniel 2017-03-30 01:12:59
Do you have any articles on how to get out of the friend zone? I have been friend zoned for the first time in my life, and the circumstances are NOT normal. I won't go into details because I know about the whole "one girl" thing but I had this girl blowing me in her boyfriend's bed last week and this week we're "just friends, in a non sexual way"? Anyway curious to hear your always unique perspective here.
JA 2018-06-17 18:28:16
Female friends can and do happen. Because I have them and they are not parasitic relationships. From a societal and even biological standpoint, women are more than just potential baby-makers. They can serve many roles just as men can serve many roles, not to mention, as others have said, there are many women who exist, even beautiful ones, that men can have zero interest in. The key to female/male friendships is no different than any other type of relationship with women, you need to set strong boundaries. I agree with a commenter above that said, if a women sees you as a masculine man, she will then be attracted to you and will want to spend time with you. Just because you two aren't getting down and dirty, one can still extract many benefits from these women (they get your time and masculine energy) including gifts, humor, companionship, and much more (including meeting more potential females that you may be interested in). It really is not black and white. The friend-zone and authentic friendships with women are very different things. It can happen with men too. Male/male "friendships" can be very parasitic too. At the end of the day, judge relationships by what they offer to you in terms of benefits. If none exist, cut them off.
Coco 2018-06-27 08:26:28
I have placed women in the Friend Zone as well, mostly because I don’t find them physically attractive but they find me attractive. It does alter their behaviour too and seems to drain their self-confidence. I support BD’s assertion that Friend Zoning has a pull on the subconscious, simply because the other person doesn’t find you attractive enough to fuck - for fun.
Dale 2019-08-01 18:21:12
When I was younger and clueless about women, I had several 'friendzone' relationships since I had no clue they wanted to have sex with me. (They were friendzoned, too, since they thought I was screwing other women.) I have a couple of them still, but now they are old.