Get Free Email Updates!
Join us for FREE to get instant email updates!
Objections To Younger Women with Older Men
-By Caleb Jones
If you are one of these women, please help me out. I even included a pretty, female-friendly picture with this post. Please leave a comment below and answer the following question:
If a younger woman dates an older man in a serious or casual relationship, entirely of her own free will, and the man is not lying to her, not leading her on, looks perfectly normal, and is not a creeper, why is this bad?
I would love to hear your answer.
However, before you answer, let me address a few things that other women who are horrified about this have already said on this blog:
1. It’s gross!
Thank you, but why is it gross? Please be specific, and remember that one of the rules here is that if you state an opinion, you must specifically explain why you have that opinion. Otherwise, you’re just bitching or trolling.
2. Older men are gross!
Hugh Jackman is in his mid 40s. Is he gross? Johnny Depp is in his 50s. Is he gross?
I know, I know, they're celebrities. Doesn’t matter. The question above clearly stated that the man was normal-looking. I agree with you that if a 19 year-old woman dates a 45 year-old man who is fat, hairy, wrinkly, and bald, then yeah, that’s kinda gross. But I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about a normal, healthy-looking man.
3. He’s deceiving her! He’s taking advantage of her!
No, I stated that the man is honest, up-front, and not leading her on. I have told men millions of times to never lie to women and to treat them well. I agree that a woman dating a man (of any age) who is lying to her is bad, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.
4. She’ll regret it later in life!
You’ll need to back up that statement with facts because I’ve literally never seen this, and I’ve seen a lot. I don’t date women younger than 23 these days, but I certainly have dated women younger than that over the course of my adult life. I am still friends with the vast majority of these women even though many of them are now much older. I can tell you for a fact that not one of them, and I mean this, not one of them “regret” dating me. If anything they look back on the experience with fondness.
I also know plenty of women in their 30s and 40s who dated or hooked up with much older men when they (the women) were 18-25, and not once have I seen an older woman relate these stories with anything other than happy gleam in their eye. There is no “regret.”
I think you’re just saying “she’ll regret it later” because you just happen to think it’s gross. Again, you’ll need to back up what you’re saying with facts instead of emotions.
5. The human brain isn’t fully formed until people turn 25!
And? What does that have to do with anything? I’m not telling older men to go around marrying 18 year-olds, and I actually berate men when they’re stupid enough to get into serious relationships with long-term expectations with young women.
Instead, I’m telling older men to feel free to date younger women in an honest and up-front way if those younger women happen to like older men, which many do.
By the way, when an over-30 woman you know dates a man under age 25, do you scream at her about how his brain isn't fully formed? You and I both know you don't.
6. She’s only dating him for the money! That’s the only reason why a younger woman would date an older guy!
I can’t speak for other men, but I don’t pay women to have sex with me, nor do I shower women with money. Read this and this for more details on how little I spend on women. So what you’re saying is an extremely inaccurate overgeneralization.
I agree there are some younger women gold diggers out there, and some creepy older guys who can’t get laid unless they drop hundreds of dollars on women, but that’s not the scenario I’ve had, and the same could be said about most of the older men who read this blog.
7. The only younger women gross enough or stupid enough to date older guys are damaged women with daddy issues!
If your contention is that 100% of younger women who date older men are mentally damaged, you’re wrong. I’ve dated a lot of younger women in my day, have known many other younger women who like older men, and have known lots of women who are now older who used to date older men when they were younger.
Most of these women are perfectly normal women who don’t do drugs, have two married parents, and perfectly normal relationships with their fathers.
Are there some troubled younger women with daddy issues? You bet, of course there are. Do they represent 100% of younger women who date older guys? Nope.
8. It’s just not right!
Why? Again, be specific about why you think that and back up your argument with something besides emotions and Societal Programming.
Allow me to repeat the question:
If a younger woman dates an older man in a serious or casual relationship, entirely of her own free will, and the man is not lying to her, not leading her on, looks perfectly normal, and is not a creeper, why is this bad?
Please leave a comment below with your answer, keeping in mind the above points I already mentioned.
Want over 35 hours of how-to podcasts on how to improve your woman life and financial life? Want to be able to coach with me twice a month? Want access to hours of technique-based video and audio? The SMIC Program is a monthly podcast and coaching program where you get access to massive amounts of exclusive, members-only Alpha 2.0 content as soon as you sign up, and you can cancel whenever you want. Click here for the details.
Get Free Email Updates!
Join us for FREE to get instant email updates!
Ronin 2015-05-07 13:16:02
You expect a logical response? 🙂 A logical one would be "Because it means I have to compete with younger women and I don't want to" or "It leaves fewer men in my own age group to snare"....but I doubt you get many replies like that....
Blackdragon 2015-05-07 13:32:02
True; that's usually the case. However there are some Type 1 younger women who also get pissed about this sometimes. "Ew gross I would never do that!" Yes, I know you wouldn't, but some of your young girlfriends would...
JoshuaTenor 2015-05-07 13:34:03
I'm looking forward to hearing from the women on this one.
tim 2015-05-07 14:15:13
I'm 34. The last two girls I dated were in the range of 21. Guess what? I met both of them online...and both of them messaged me first and broke the ice. Both of them were perfectly normal girls who were in college full time, one was pre-med. Neither of them was using me for money, both of them went to school full time and had jobs. Neither of them had daddy issues as far as I could tell. They just liked older guys. One told me she preferred guys in their late 20's-30's because college guys only want to bang as many girls as they can and move on. Too immature for her tastes. Maybe these women who have a problem with it have an issue attracting an older established guy and only attracts idiots and losers. As far as I'm concerned, a girl in her early to mid 20's is much more fun to be around. They have less baggage, are less likely to have kids, and are generally happy in my experience. Plus, they seem to like me. So I've got no complaints.
JJ Roberts 2015-05-07 14:21:47
Women don't like it because it reveals how the sexual marketplace is not in their favour as they age and they do not like this fact. There is no other reason.
WS1835 2015-05-07 14:29:12
Don't hold your breath. BD was very specific that responses have to be supported by logical argument, not be based on arbitrary social restriction, and be free of emotional rhetoric. Any one who can critically think, isn't bound by prevailing social codes and thoughtfully considers the merits of the case is effectively reduced to the objection cited by Ronin. And what woman is going to admit she can't compete? - WS1835
Amanda 2015-05-07 15:31:18
I don't have a problem with it at all - I dated a very attractive, confident 42-year-old man when I was 22 myself. Of course, my dad was much older than 42 at the time, so thoughts of "ew, this guy is old enough to be my father" didn't even enter my mind. I read a post here on how whether a young woman finds this creepy or not has a lot to do with her father's age, and I find this to be true. And, for the record, I grew up in a two-parent home and have a great relationship with both of my parents, and wasn't pressured into the relationship nor did I receive any financial incentives for dating this guy (or any guy). I simply found him incredibly attractive! 🙂
Blackdragon 2015-05-07 15:38:16
Don’t hold your breath.I know, but I'm trying to be nice and open-minded here and let the angry women at least attempt to make some logical points (if they have any). If they can't, then they can't, but I want to at least give them an opportunity. (And then let it never be said that I didn't give them the opportunity to explain their view.)
Over-30 Feminist 2015-05-07 16:32:39
Comment deleted for violation of Rule Number 1.
cheryl 2015-05-07 17:56:49
Since you promise to be open minded and nice I thought maybe id say just something little BD. The only thing I wish is that you guys are careful with is 18yr old girls..trust me their girls. We can all say when your 18 your an adult but trust me.. they don't get it. I work with several very intelligent middle 20 to late 20yr old women who have all graduated 4.0 from college,have their bachelors and a few working on the masters in nursing, can save lives like nobodys business but when it comes to guys lose all common sense. When a young female enters into a relationship esp. Not having much experience (hell even some who have had some ) their is an emotional trigger somewhere even if its known its just for sex. I'm not saying the whole NRE thing but I don't care how much they will say they can handle it..a lot can't. Unfortunately things I have seen entail some heartbreak because she might develop an emotional attachment (even though you will say I was upfront with her) I know that's what'll you are going to say, trust me their girls, even though they may look and try and act much older. Its far from the argument of the younger girls "stealing the men" lol I can definately appreciate a beautiful woman and not feel the jealousy men talk of. I thank God some days that I have boys and not girls so I don't have to deal with worrying about this, but I'm not sure how I would feel if she were just starting her life and sleeping with a 40yr old man. Would any of you guys want the same for your daughters?
Blackdragon 2015-05-07 18:01:00
Would any of you guys want the same for your daughters?Yes. Or at least it wouldn't bother me provided the guy was a decent guy. I explained why right here.
cheryl 2015-05-07 18:08:54
He has one thing on his mind she doesn't..won't end well.
Blackdragon 2015-05-07 18:33:27
He has one thing on his mind she doesn’t.You don't know that. How do you explain all the relationships I gave as examples in my post? In my experience 18 year-old girls are horny as hell, excited about sex and fun, and usually are not looking to marry an older man ASAP.
won’t end wellYes, and all those relationships where 18 year-old boys date 18 year-old girls end up soooooo well...
Signor Farfalla 2015-05-07 18:38:34
One thing that I don't think has come up yet is this; The older man/younger women relationship simply makes men very happy. It's a breach of the feminine imperative and it's a situation that actually has the innate desires of men somewhere in the mix. God forbid the situation actually tip a little bit in favor of the male imperative (WTH is that anyway? Male imperative?). The majority of females are miserable and male happiness is something that they can't stand. You can't just 'slut walk' 'rape culture' 'manspreading rage' your way to happiness. You can't have politicians legislate etc. Women are very unhappy (thanks to the mental frameworking of feminism) and the image of happy men just blows their minds apart. The same thing happens when they see a male with a thin foreign woman. "NO! No happiness for you! If I can't be happy then you won't! Grrrr.."
cheryl 2015-05-07 18:46:30
We weren't talking about 18 yr old boys though were we? And I didn't say a thing about marriage,some girls become very attracted...head,heart and body sometimes unlike guys its not as much to do with the body as it is the heart and head. And yes I know boys do get their heart broken...boy do I know it.. don't we all?
Ronin 2015-05-07 18:47:11
Cheryl, it's been my experience of 60 years on this planet that women of all ages "When it comes to guys lose all common sense", not just women in their 20's. Some women simply like older men for the lifestyle they lead and would like to experience it. For me I don't expect any relationship with a much younger woman to last, newer shiny things always come along and catch their attention and off they go.
Tony 2015-05-07 19:02:05
I'm glad you made this post, because I've had discussions with people over this online, and as a younger man I can't really speak from experience. However, the excuses you list aren't the ones I tend to hear. I usually hear one or more of the following: An older guy is only dating a younger woman because women his age won't put up with his shit. Somebody in their 30's/40's/50's is in a different place in their life than somebody in their 20's. Older men with younger women are more likely to be abusive relationships than ones where the couple is the same age. I've also heard the "He's taking advantage of her" one, but in the context of "He has more life experience so the balance of power is shifted". I'd find that idea horribly insulting if I was a young women. For the others, it just seems like bitter women who don't want competition and people who are looking for a reason to justify their illogical emotions. I find my #1 particularly amusing, since it subtly implies that older women are demanding and bitchy, which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of dating older women. Why would I want to date somebody who is unforgiving of my faults?
JFUNK 2015-05-07 19:09:57
While I don't find it inherently immoral, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. You have significantly more control over your emotions than most guys, and certainly most girls. Especially girls that young. That is in part because of your age, but also your methodical nature. You put a large value on "honesty and straightforwardness" in the masculine sense. So by court of law, nobody can say you misled her. But you're very careful with your words, and leaving a void for her to fill with her imagination. Since you want to win, even if she has to "lose" by her basic motivations. She will probably never "own" more than a few hours a week, but like many young girls, they hope for more. Reinforced by nature and our friend Disney, of course. Your detachment, honest or otherwise, It sends a message to her subconscious that she is not good enough to be central to a man's life, and whacks her (probably already low) self esteem. Most people, women included live their lives in repeated loops. For a very young girl, you may have introduced a loop of "I am just the geisha of a powerful man, and I deserve nothing more". She continues to seek out the same, and continues to be unhappy. If she is smart and self aware enough, she may break the loop later on. But if she doesn't, you've had some credit in introducing it. Not sole credit, but some. And you did so methodically, unlike some emotional younger guy flying by the seat of his pants. And I get it, we're guys, we want to win, and going long term monogamous as a guy means losing. But I think you are exaggerating the "win-win" nature of these arrangements, from a female perspective. Many of the women tolerate it for short between periods, or when there is a hope of it becoming something else.
buzz 2015-05-07 19:12:35
Another condition to add for the older male. The older male has never been married or had any kids. Many women feel that once you have been married and had kids you ticket is punched and you should not be dating younger women but devoting all of your time and energy to the family you already have. A lot of women like bald men BD The older man that is able to start a relationship with a younger woman is going to try to make it last as long as he can, if it does end it is usually the young woman that ends it, so no he is not going to break her heart. If a younger woman has Daddy issues and many do what is wrong with helping her out, maybe even being a better Daddy than her biological father. OK so sex is involved, I am not her biological father, just helping her out with her issues, again what is wrong with that? To the parents that get all upset about this thank you with out bad parents there would not be as many young women available to us especially you bad fathers thanks again 🙂
Dawson Stone 2015-05-07 21:01:15
People seem to want to take the position that most young women are the same which is of course on its face ridiculous. I mostly date women 18-25 but I sometimes date women in their 30s and 40s. It isn't about age. It is about attraction and personality. On average there are more women that are attractive in their late teens and 20s than there are in their 30s and 40s (less overweight, less wrinkles, etc.) But I don't disqualify anyone based on any other reason (race, ethnicity, religion, culture, age, socio-economic background, etc.) I evaluate each person as a unique individual. I have met 19 year olds that are wise beyond their years and women in their 40s that couldn't find their ass with two hands and a flashlight. I see the comments about "the man only wants sex" or "it won't end well" or "it won't last" or whatever. Men always want sex regardless of their age. This is even MORE true of a younger guy. Almost no relationship ends well regardless of two people's ages. Marriages certainly don't (in the vast majority of the cases). Why is longevity the goal? Shouldn't a happy 2 year relationship that ends with both people remaining friends (or at least friendly) be seen as a far superior outcome than a 25-40 year marriage where they can barely stand each other? The funny thing is that the opposite of what most women say is actually the case. Women mature intellectually and emotionally much faster than men do. Most guys when they are in their late teens/early 20s are emotionally retarded. But I am generalizing...as I said I think you should evaluate each person as an individual. To BD's point in his post I have dozens of women I have dated in their late teens and early 20s and nearly all of them would tell you that dating me was a huge positive in their lives. I personally have not found it to be an issue dating a younger woman who's parent(s) are near my age or younger. In fact at nearly 50 that is now the case almost all the time and it has never been an issue. So let me now talk about my daughter. She is 15 and has her first boyfriend who is also her age. He is a good looking, nice kid. He is also emotionally 3-5 years her junior. She will learn nothing from this kid. Once she is old enough (18 or so) I honestly hopes that she dates guys at least in their 30 or 40s. I think romantic love is a horrible basis for a relationship so I hope she chooses to not get married and I want her to have relationships with men that can help make her a better version of herself. That is unlikely to happen with an insecure kid that doesn't even know who he is himself. How let me share one more thing. My parents got divorced when I was a freshman in college and when I was 24 my Mom sheepishly told me she was dating an 18 yo. My Mom's romantic partner was 6 years YOUNGER than me. What was my reaction? I met her and saw how happy they seemed together and couldn't be happier for them. And the punchline...her partner was a woman. They just celebrated their 25 year anniversary. They are literally the happiest couple I know and I have never heard them utter an unkind word to or about each other. Age is like anything else. It is one variable. It isn't irrelevant but it is just one variable. I just wish people in the Manosphere (well really everywhere) would quit acting like all women (or people of any group) are the same. Use your intellect and judge each person for who they are...not based on the biases about what society has told you to think. Think for yourself.
Russ 2015-05-07 21:02:33
The views BD has written, about the creepiness of a younger woman dating and/or fucking an older man (that's not for sugar daddy related golddigger reasons) is probably espoused way more by most younger women themselves, mainly due to heavy societal brainwashing and conditioning they receive, plus younger women thinking they wouldn't have enough commonalities. In some cases, they're probably right. Not all younger women think that way, but probably 85-90% do. The key for an older guy, is to find ones receptive to dating someone older, but it's a small percentage.
Ron Gordon 2015-05-07 21:17:42
From a legal perspective there is no concern of consenting "adults" loving each other. From a biological perspective, younger women may be more fertile, and older men have shown their survivability in the real world and probably some basis to make money in society. And from a feminist point of view, it is proper that an "adult" woman, who is equal to man in intellect, should be able to pick her partner without interference from ageist females or males. To think otherwise would perpetuate outdated notions that woman are incompetent to men and should not have equal rights (think for example the old arguments about women being too emotionally unstable to vote). I rest my case.
foodforthought 2015-05-08 01:08:23
My opinion is that until you are over 25, date within 2 - 4 years of your age. After 25 take on whatever you fancy. I find either sex taking on a lover that is under 25 and more than a 7 year age gap is bordering into territory that could cause mental trauma. That being said, my attitude is also that the parents of such junior daters have raised them to have even less brains than the average. The whole selfie star/look like an adult situation that is rife at the moment just points to a sever lack of parental control. It is the over sexualization of youth that is allowed by parents that causes this problem. Ironically both males and females will be frantically trying to look under 30 at the first sign of a wrinkle. A desperate rush to be an adult and date decades older is understandable as these youths are very naive. Unfortunately your youth, like your virginity, cannot be truly recaptured. I don't follow any particular religion or subscribe to living as a prude - I just believe the simple beauty of your youth is irreplaceable. To say these young girls and men do not regret their actions is laughable as they know no difference and are viewing their past affair with the rosy coloured glasses of the amused older person - probably congratulating themselves for being such a hot piece of work back in the day and feeling vaguely bohemian and a rebel.
Dawson Stone 2015-05-08 01:47:04
@foodforthought When I read your comment it sounded like something straight out of a politically correct Huffington Post article. For the most part I think I understand your opinion but I am curious upon what is your opinion based? Did you have a regrettable experience when you were younger that caused "mental trauma?" Do you know a number of women that in their late teens/early 20s dated older men and their "mental trauma" caused them irreparable damage? I can only assume you are not a parent since your assumptions about how to raise a mentally and emotionally healthy child are...how shall I say this...a little nuts. I have no idea how a parent might raise a child to "have even less brains than the average." So if I understand your position you believe that if someone dates within the age parameters that you have outlined (although the math gets a little fuzzy around 28) they would avoid "mental trauma" and be able to look back and enjoy the "...simple beauty of [their] youth..." objectively. However the brain dead, selfie-obsessed, poorly parented, naive, over-sexualized women in a desperate attempt to accelerate her "desperate rush to be an adult" will be mentally traumatized by dating an older man. So much so, in fact, that she will be unable, even in the future, to see those experiences for what they were (permanently damaging) and instead will see them through the rose colored glasses of the "amused older person." Do I have your position about right? It sounds more like a case of Stockholm Syndrome versus memories of a guy she dated. I lost my virginity to a 23 yo woman when I was 15. Not only wasn't I mentally traumatized, but I will be forever grateful to her.
al 2015-05-08 04:25:30
My first sexual encounter was when I was 14 and the mother of my girlfriend tried to seduce me. As the saying goes, if only I had known then what I know now! I am much, much older now but still have women in my life who are much, much younger. One of them told me that I had spoiled her for a younger man. Ladies and Gents, if a man and woman have a sexual chemistry between them, age (keeping it legal) has nothing to do with it. Chemistry, fun, safe sex and mutual respect and no silly marriages allow this to work very well.
BA 2015-05-08 07:02:39
Tony said "An older guy is only dating a younger woman because women his age won’t put up with his shit." As an older guy dating a younger woman, it's quite the reverse. I won't put up with an older woman's shit.
Dawson Stone 2015-05-08 07:34:52
As an older guy dating a younger woman, it’s quite the reverse. I won’t put up with an older woman’s shit.Amen brother!
Charlotte 2015-05-08 07:59:58
I am 26 and my husband is 37. We've been married for 5 years and our 4th child is due in December. I never set out to date an older man, but my husband and I are both very glad we found each other. It worked perfectly for us because he had reached the age where he was willing and able to support a family, while I was still young enough to have one. His friends who married within their age group are coping with subfertile 30-something wives who are only able to have one or two kids, if they have any at all. Additionally, their wives are also having trouble shifting to family life after 10-15 years of idependence and focusing on only themselves and their careers. I found that marrying young made it easier for me to be flexible and accomodate the needs of my family. I believe those who complain about older men dating younger women are mostly just jealous. I have never heard anyone complain about it who wasn't an older woman or a career woman who did not plan to marry until past 30. They unconciously realize younger women are serious competition. It may also have something to do with their assumption that if they were still immature party girls at age 26, all other women are too. They cannot fathom how a woman under 30 could be a married homeowner and college graduate capable of successfully raising a family if they themselves would have been unable to do it at that age.
Ronin 2015-05-08 08:14:47
"As an older guy dating a younger woman, it’s quite the reverse. I won’t put up with an older woman’s shit." I agree with the above and am tired of the whole notion that on one hand women are supposed to be "Strong and empowered" and yet on the other have to be protected like mentally challenged children.
Blackdragon 2015-05-08 10:22:09
We weren’t talking about 18 yr old boys though were we?As Ronin correctly indicated, a negative condition that exists with both younger men and older men has nothing to do with age.
Somebody in their 30’s/40’s/50’s is in a different place in their life than somebody in their 20’s.Ah, dammit! I forgot about that one! Yes, that's a common one. The answer is: Place in life isn't nearly as relevant as A) mutual attraction, B) two people who want the same thing, and C) two people who want the same kind of relationship. I would argue that most men and women of the equivalent age are not "in the same place in life."
She will probably never “own” more than a few hours a week, but like many young girls, they hope for more. Reinforced by nature and our friend Disney, of course.Just like Cheryl, you're relaying a problem that happens with people of all ages, not just younger women.
And I get it, we’re guys, we want to win, and going long term monogamous as a guy means losing. But I think you are exaggerating the “win-win” nature of these arrangements, from a female perspective.Off-topic. We're not talking about open/poly relationships, we're talking about older men with younger women.
Blackdragon 2015-05-08 10:26:34
And from a feminist point of view, it is proper that an “adult” woman, who is equal to man in intellect, should be able to pick her partner without interference from ageist females or males. To think otherwise would perpetuate outdated notions that woman are incompetent to men and should not have equal rights (think for example the old arguments about women being too emotionally unstable to vote).Absolutely correct, and Foodforthought is about to prove your point by saying:
That being said, my attitude is also that the parents of such junior daters have raised them to have even less brains than the average.Boom, there you go. So here's the conclusion: WOMEN THINK YOUNGER WOMEN ARE STUPID. Women who object to older men / younger women relationships think younger women are not adults and are complete morons, unable to make proper decisions in their own lives. Seriously, I think that's it (beyond the "I don't want competition!" thing, which is probably reason number one). We men have more respect for younger women than women do, because WOMEN THINK YOUNGER WOMEN ARE STUPID.
To say these young girls and men do not regret their actions is laughable as they know no difference and are viewing their past affair with the rosy coloured glasses of the amused older personFine, then the women don't regret their actions. Thank you for proving my point.
Tony 2015-05-08 11:22:49
I would argue that most men and women of the equivalent age are not “in the same place in life.”I can affirm this from personal experience. I'm 24, but I probably have much more in common with a typical 35-year-old than I do with my 22-year-old girlfriend. I have a 9-5 office job making good money, the only debt I have is my mortgage, etc. Yet my girlfriend lives with her parents, is still going to school, and has zero work experience.
Kryptokate 2015-05-08 16:28:29
I would never tell anyone who to date or criticize their choices or otherwise interfere in other people's relationships, but I am definitely one of those people who, if I see a younger girl with an older guy, thinks to myself "what the hell is she thinking? why the hell would she fuck him when she could be fucking a hot young stud her own age??". I thought that when I was 18, I thought it when I was 25, and I think it now in my 30s. I don't think anything in particular about the guy since obviously he's doing well for himself, it's more a reaction to the girl because I just can't imagine why anyone would voluntarily do that. Then again, I may be more looks-oriented than some women. I think the only reason people have a bad reaction is because it is a clear mismatch in sexual market value. It's no different than when you see a couple where one is much, much better looking than the other, or one is slim and one obese, or any other obvious sexual mismatch. It's disconcerting and doesn't make sense and makes people wonder why on earth the higher SMP value person is doing it. It's like finding out that a skilled MD with great education and experience is voluntarily working at McDonalds. It's a clear violation of market mechanics and therefore calls for an explanation. And the only three explanations are: 1. the lower SMP person is trading sex appeal for something else, such as financial support or access to social circles or whatever, 2. the higher SMP person is stupid/ignorant and the lower SMP person is taking advantage of their stupidity/ignorance, or 3. the higher SMP person is crazy. That's why you get the reaction, because of the market imbalance. It's the same reason why people will get offended and upset if someone who is way below their SMP asks them out -- it's an insult. Like offering to pay the skilled MD minimum wage. People may not realize that this is what they're reacting to, but that's what it is. People intuitively know who is at the top of the SMP, and that is hot, built 20-somethings with good social skills. People with money and good pedigrees and status may be higher in the RMP, but not the SMP (as much as there is male denial about this). And when you see two people together who are leagues apart (as a hot 20-something is from a 40-something and I don't care how good-looking the 40-something person is), it causes concern that the higher SMP person is being abused or taken advantage of to "get such a bad deal". And I don't feel any different about any of this when it is a younger man with an older woman. My friend's tall, normal, good-looking younger brother is 28 and he just married a 46 year old woman. I would never say a peep, but in my head I am thinking "why the hell would he do something so stupid she will be a prune soon, gross!" Also, the way that you can tell that this is the problem is because people DON'T get upset at age differences when there are other compensating factors that balance out the SMP value divergence to make it equivalent. For example, if the 25 year old is not very attractive or is overweight, and the 45-year old is good-looking and in shape, then their SMP values equal out and it doesn't bother anyone. It just bothers people when someone who everyone wants to fuck is with someone who hardly anyone wants to fuck because the former person *IS* making a bad decision, frankly, unless they're being well-compensated in some other manner. The fact that youth is fleeting and easily wasted makes all this worse. Out of 80 years on the planet, there are only 10 that are the super-hot years. And to waste those years fucking anyone other than other super-hot people is a *SERIOUS* waste of that youth. No offense to you BD because I congratulate you on your ability to get younger chicks and I have no idea what you look like, but I can tell you that if *I* had used my precious time in my 20s to fuck dudes in their 40s, I would ABSOLUTELY now regret it and consider it wasted time. Because of the lost opportunity cost. I used my 20s to have sex with the best looking, fit, young guys available -- something that will not be possible for me for most of my life, so I consider it time well spent and would advise anyone to do the same. If there's anything I regret, it's that I didn't go after more of them, or more aggressively seek out the most Adonis-like physiques, as back then I was snobbish against jocks and only went for the hipstery/artist types. And you shouldn't presume that older women look down on or feel jealous of younger women...why can't it be wanting to help them maximize their efficiency and capitalize on market value? We were all young once and most people have an urge to mentor those who are younger than themselves. It's not much different than a red pill guy seeking to help blue pill young guys to wake up and realize what's going on while they're still young and have the best chances with hot young chicks.
Dawson Stone 2015-05-08 17:30:10
@Kryptokate A thoughtful and well reasoned position on all fronts and I agree with most of what you say...actually nearly all of it except for some of the conclusions you reach. So let me offer a mild counter argument although of course I am not trying to change your mind about what you like. Where I agree is that it really does boil down to SMV equality and if it is out of wack it just seems "weird." But SMV for the two genders is markedly different. And it does appear that you are more driven by pure physical attraction than most women. The generalization goes that for women a man can go up there points in looks (i.e. from a 5 to an 8) based on other non-physical factors. Money. Humor/personality. Power. Fame. Etc. Women on the other hand (I am generalizing) can only go up one point. I don't care how funny Rosanne Barr is, I couldn't get it up to have sex with her if my life depended on it. IMO a woman's SMV peaks in her early 20s. She is at her most attractive, has most of her reproductive years ahead of her (even if she doesn't want kids visual signs of her fertility is a significant biological factor in being attractive to men) and is often at her most confident. A young, attractive women in her early 20s finally understands her power over men in a way that a 15 yo girl doesn't and a 30 yo can't any more. A man in his early 20s, however, even a really good-looking and in shape guy, simply isn't at his peak SMV. He can get laid and he might be confident about how he looks but he knows if he isn't successful he won't be shit in a decade. I was a Division I wrestler at an Ivy League school, pretty decent looking and still not very comfortable in my own skin back then. And at least in terms of a guy they want to date (not just fuck) women want a guy that is extremely confident. Guys in their early 20s, at their best, fake it. I mostly date women 18-25 and here are the reasons they give me for wanting to date me versus a guy their age: - I am not a selfish lover and I know what I am are doing (there are at least 15 women I can recall between 18-22 where I have given them their first non-masturbating orgasm) - I am not jealous, possessive or controlling - They can learn from me on nearly any topic. They guys their age can't teach them shit - They often end up paying for stuff. They hate guys that are either cheap or broke - I know how to communicate and am comfortable in my own skin enough to avoid any drama There is more but that hits the high points. I have gotten from nearly every one of my guy friends over the years the same question: "Why the fuck would a gorgeous 19 yo want to fuck your sorry ass." I was recently asked this by a close college buddy of mine. My response was, "Let's image we were back in college and we met a 40-something woman that had still kept herself in really good shape and was attractive. She was able to give us advice on everything from how to dress for an interview to what to major it to how to negotiate our salary for our first job offer. She taught us how to think about life and how to maximize our happiness and that of the people we cared about. She was also extremely open and experienced sexually and taught us stuff in the bedroom we had only seen in porno movies before. She took us with her on business trips to cool cities, to black tie events and out for meals we could never have afforded. Be honest...if we found that women we would have been high fiving each other." His response, "Yea, good point." I agree that it does boil down to SMV but where we differ in our opinions is that I believe a woman's SMV peaks in her early 20s and a man's in his late 30s to early 40s. And you must realize you are an outlier to the extreme in terms of how most women view the world. It isn't a presumption but a fact that older women's disgust for younger women dating older men is primarily about jealousy. All you have to do is see their facial expressions, body language and listen to what they say. They aren't confused by why a younger woman would date an other guy they are FURIOUS about it. It is very similar to how black women often react when they see a good looking, successful black man with a white women. They are livid. They know they are on the wrong end of the supply and demand curve and it pisses them off. A woman in her 50s (even a well preserved one) has horrific romantic options. For a guy in his 50s assuming he hasn't let himself go can date women from 18 to 80. And let me add one last point. If one takes monogamy off the table (so long as you were attracted to older men at all) what exactly is there to regret? You could still have insane monkey sex with your 20-something frat boy and your older, wiser, more experienced lover for the stuff you couldn't and wouldn't want to experience with the younger guy anyway.
lazy guy 2015-05-08 22:05:58
So many fascinating points from various people here... I hope the following is germane: I'm a man past 40, and I experience ageism from women (mostly online), in that they assume they know all about me just by knowing my general age. From what I've seen, ageism is a lot like racism: when you assume you know all the key traits someone has, just because you know their ethnic category (as if one fact tells you all about that person). Racism often appears to be based on stupidity/ignorance and mental laziness (leading to foolish fears). With these definitions, ageism appears to be about as pathetic & indefensible as racism is. Sometimes it's funny to think of all the dumb assumptions that come with ageism, such as 'If you're past 40, you're mature, but you're tired & boring, with a repulsive flabby body, and you can't compete sexually with anyone in their 20's. If you're in your 20's, you're energetic & exciting & enthusiastic, with a great body, and you give great sex, but you're too ignorant to give good conversation to an intelligent adult.' Oh yeah, all of those are always true. Whew, what a relief from having to do any observation or thinking about someone you just met.
Blackdragon 2015-05-08 22:36:09
Kryptokate - A few points of disagreement: 1. Your argument that the SMP of an average-looking 25 year-old is higher than that of an average-looking 45 year-old is wrong. There are benefits to a woman dating that 45 year-old, even if he's not a her sugar daddy, that he does not receive from the 25 year-old, and those include sexual benefits (as Dawson indicated). 2. Men age very, very differently than women. I'm not gay, but it is my opinion, and I've always held this opinion even when I was very young, that as long as they don't get fat, men are far more physically attractive in their mid to late 30s than they are in their early 20s. (Of course Hollywood-gorgeous men at either age who are perfectly ripped with sixpack abs are the exception to the rule and I'm not talking about those statistically rare exceptions). Maybe I'm alone in that opinion but I don't think so. If I'm not, then once again, the argument that the SMV of a younger man is higher than an older one isn't really correct. 3. This:
the way that you can tell that this is the problem is because people DON’T get upset at age differences when there are other compensating factors that balance out the SMP value divergence to make it equivalent. For example, if the 25 year old is not very attractive or is overweight, and the 45-year old is good-looking and in shape, then their SMP values equal out and it doesn’t bother anyone.I can tell you for a fact that's completely untrue. I've seen couples like this and have seen the reactions to them. The people (largely older women) who are horrified at younger woman - older man relationships are still going to be horrified at this couple even if the younger woman is ugly or fat. As a matter of fact, that guy will look even WORSE to these people, not better. At least if the younger woman is hot they are angry but they still "understand." 4. This:
Out of 80 years on the planet, there are only 10 that are the super-hot years.Correct, and for men, I don't think those years are age 18-28 like they are for women. I think they're more like 28-38.
Blackdragon 2015-05-08 22:39:19
Sometimes it’s funny to think of all the dumb assumptions that come with ageism, such as ‘If you’re past 40, you’re mature, but you’re tired & boring, with a repulsive flabby body, and you can’t compete sexually with anyone in their 20’s. If you’re in your 20’s, you’re energetic & exciting & enthusiastic, with a great body, and you give great sex, but you’re too ignorant to give good conversation to an intelligent adult.’ Oh yeah, all of those are always true. Whew, what a relief from having to do any observation or thinking about someone you just met.Fantastic point and very well-said. I too am very, very tired of this ageism. I know TONS of angry, fat or ugly younger women under 23 and TONS of good-looking, decently fit, non-creepy, cool older (unmarried) men over 40, and in either case, it's not a tiny percentage of those groups. It's just stupid.
Amanda 2015-05-08 23:55:08
Sometimes it’s funny to think of all the dumb assumptions that come with ageism, such as ‘If you’re past 40, you’re mature, but you’re tired & boring, with a repulsive flabby body, and you can’t compete sexually with anyone in their 20’s. If you’re in your 20’s, you’re energetic & exciting & enthusiastic, with a great body, and you give great sex, but you’re too ignorant to give good conversation to an intelligent adult.’ Oh yeah, all of those are always true. Whew, what a relief from having to do any observation or thinking about someone you just met.Very true! Not to mention there are a lot of things both men and women can do nowadays to keep themselves looking great and able to compete in the SMP, that many of us simply didn't think of when we were young. I started focusing on skincare and sun protection about 5 years ago and started working out last year, and I look and feel so much better than I did when I was in my early 20s. IMO there is absolutely no reason to chop off my hair, gain weight and stop looking my best every day just because I'm now 30. My thinking is, the benefits of putting some effort into your appearance are numerous, both career-wise and dating-wise! And if few other people make the effort (and VERY few do in my Northern California town), that'll only make you stand out even more.
lazy guy 2015-05-09 06:03:39
Well, stupidity & mental laziness appear to be pandemic and here to stay, so I try to take it in stride, but that can be a challenge... Maybe I'm straying off-topic (?), but instant rejection can be a helpful filter (saving you wasted time). Maybe that person who instantly rejected you (on the basis of minimal info) saved you from wasting your precious time on them. Conversely, if a woman shows interest when I'm looking far from my best, then I know she really appreciates my basic traits, so already I know she has a key trait for us being a good match (for *some* kind of connection; not saying marriage, cough cough). It's like when I was working as a lowly waiter, meeting women while doing that job ... Sometimes I think I ought to 'lead with my potential deal-breakers' just to save time. Kinda funny huh. Anyway the odd thing is seeing attractive women in their 20's showing interest in me when we just happen to meet in a random encounter (in person, face to face), in contrast to the online closed-mindedness trend. Also here in the DC area I find less of that ageism than I found in West LA. Okay, please excuse me if I strayed off-topic.
Kurt 2015-05-09 06:07:08
And let me add one last point. If one takes monogamy off the table (so long as you were attracted to older men at all) what exactly is there to regret? You could still have insane monkey sex with your 20-something frat boy and your older, wiser, more experienced lover for the stuff you couldn’t and wouldn’t want to experience with the younger guy anyway.Don't know about you Dawson, but I'm 45 and there's still plenty of insane monkey sex going on here 😉
Dawson Stone 2015-05-09 06:35:45
@Kurt lol. Yes same here too. One of my SOPs is to ask a woman I am about to meet how many is the most orgasms she has ever had in a single sex session. I then do my level best to beat that number by as much as possible. The point I was trying to make is if a woman wants a guy to hold her upside down by her ankles while she blows you or you want a guy with a 5-minute refractory period then a 45 yo (in my case I am almost 50) might not be your guy.
Nicolas 2015-05-09 18:47:57
I’m a guy in his 20’s and I don’t date older women so I haven’t experienced a may-december relationship (but I plan to keep dating young women when I get older). I know well many may-december couples and in all except one the male is the older partner. I know several cougars but they just want to fuck young guys, not get into relationships with them. Also my country may be less liberal than the US as the age disparities aren’t that extreme: like 26 and 39 or 35 and 60. I only know one case with a VYW, a friend of my father. He was very alpha, funny and good looking and married a hottie around his age when he was 24. She worked out, remained thin and didn’t cut her hair but still hit the wall in her late 30’s. They both made a lot of money but he looked a decade younger. Then in his mid 40’s they divorced and he got a 19 year old girlfriend, a really hot one. One week my father invited him and all his friends to the country side, together with their wives and mostly grown children. Here are some potential problems. 1. It felt really weird for us adult children, and I imagine for everybody else too. She was younger than some of us and yet she hanged with our parents. It was especially weird for his son, who was 20. On the other hand the males really admired the guy. He was an alpha who didn’t care and she obviously loved to have an alpha boyfriend. 2. During the day all the kids went to do sand board or kayaking. When we were little our parents would have come with us but now they were too old for that shit so they stayed drinking wine and doing barbecues. The 19yo girlfriend obviously stayed with the parents. She would have loved to do all this stuff but she also wanted to spend time with her boyfriend. 3. When we returned the girlfriend came to see all our pics and ask questions. She talked more with us in 30 minutes that with the parents during the rest of the night. When she was alone with her boyfriend they talked a lot but with his friends she just listened and laughed at his jokes. She either was intimidated or didn’t know much about the topics. A couple of years later they married. She obviously got an amazing husband but she is also missing on a lot of things. I’m not saying she can’t go do kayaking with her friends, but being married reduces your freedom. Like she won’t go on spring breaks to get drunk as hell and flirt with all the guys while he works with clients. She is a solid 9, she could have gotten a boyfriend as awesome and successful but much younger if she had kept looking. As a general guideline I would recommend that the older partner should be very high energy or the younger partner should be low energy, so that their lifestyles are compatible. Otherwise they should do like Blackdragon, only see each other a couple of days a week and date other people on the side. Sadly, very few people are willing to let their partner go around fucking anybody they want so this isn't an option for most people.
buzz 2015-05-09 19:41:12
***if a woman wants a guy to hold her upside down by her ankles while she blows you*** I have done that at 63, just saying.....
Amanda 2015-05-09 19:45:16
Nicolas - Yes, totally forgot about the "weird for the kids" part! My grandpa on my mom's side got divorced as soon as my mom and her sister left the house, and within 6 months introduced them to his new girlfriend. My mom was stunned when she recognized her as someone she had shared classes in high school with! But my mom eventually warmed up to the idea, and was just relieved he had found someone. He's very tough, disagreeable and comes across as a total jerk to those who don't know him well. They're still married, but unfortunately not happily - they argue nonstop, to the point that no one wants to socialize with the two of them together. She's also gained close to 200 pounds, while he is almost 90 years old and still spends at least 2 hours a day in his home gym. I think they love each other, but don't like each other ... it's pretty sad.
HeyHeyDK 2015-05-09 21:22:42
I'm waiting for someone to ask - is this post a "Dawson Stone" guest host post, or what?
buzz 2015-05-10 02:41:32
Dawson hasn't sent anything out on his email list for a long time either....
Dawson Stone 2015-05-10 05:38:41
@buzz I started posting again back on my site earlier this week and will be sending out an email update shortly.
Blackdragon 2015-05-10 09:28:25
Nicolas - I agree with all of your points, but your father isn't following my advice. As I said in the post and have said before, guys in their 50s or 60s or whatever shouldn't be going around marrying 19 year-olds. Dating them, yes. FB or even perhaps serious MLTR relationships, yes. But making them their girlfriend, marrying them, or introducing them to their family? No. All that will do is create awkward situations for everyone (including the girl) and more importantly, your dad is in for a very, very messy divorce in a few years, regardless of how Alpha he is. That's what happens when you marry a girl that young. Getting into a serious relationship with long-term expectations with an 18 or 19 year-old is a terrible and ridiculous idea. (Even if you are 18 or 19 years old.) As a matter of fact, most 18 and 19 year-old girls will tell you this themselves.
POB 2015-05-11 16:50:36
– I am not a selfish lover and I know what I am are doing (...) – I am not jealous, possessive or controlling – They can learn from me on nearly any topic. They guys their age can’t teach them shit – They often end up paying for stuff. They hate guys that are either cheap or broke – I know how to communicate and am comfortable in my own skin enough to avoid any drama@Dawson All very good points regarding late 30s/early 40s men dating younger women. They say those things to me all the time (with emphatic words of approval). BTW I'm in my mid-30s.
And to waste those years fucking anyone other than other super-hot people is a *SERIOUS* waste of that youth.@Kriptokate Absolutely agree, but I'm also in serious agreement with BD and Dawson regarding some of your other points. You're clearly youth/good-looks oriented, which is fine. Buuut a high percentage of other women, specially VYW, are not! These girls dig older men for various reasons (some very well put on the other comments). This has nothing to do with perceived market value. Most women are too flimsy and desperately looking for some stability in their relationship lives, specially when they are young. Couple that with awesome sex, life experience and financial sucess and you'll understand why older guys who have their shit together (and are decent looking/not creepy) are so sucessfull dating them. Of course they know they are still physically attracted to younger good-looking guys, but they choose not to date them over us. If they do, they are free to go, but they always come back anyway (for the very same reasons they had when they started to date us), so we don't bother.
Getting into a serious relationship with long-term expectations with an 18 or 19 year-old is a terrible and ridiculous idea. (Even if you are 18 or 19 years old.) As a matter of fact, most 18 and 19 year-old girls will tell you this themselves.@BD They should teach that to everyone since seventh grade (specially boys).
Blackdragon 2015-05-11 18:00:25
They should teach that to everyone since seventh grade (specially boys).They wouldn't listen. I tell guys to not get long-term monogamous, yet...
Russ 2015-05-11 21:29:17
Where you're in a situation say online, where the younger woman from societal conditioning and brainwashing, is objecting to you as a guy being older and as being someone she'd have nothing in common with (even though she hasn't met you, to be able to make a genuine assessment of that), should an older guy not bother with such women. Or should he respond back and if so how, as in should he be serious, humorous, or combo of both.
Dawson Stone 2015-05-11 22:34:27
@Russ There are so many great women (younger and the like) that have no issue with dating older guys. I never waste my time trying to convince someone...not even a little. The reason is that even if I am successful (through humor or whatever) in convincing her to "give me a chance" I have setup the power dynamic all wrong. I have basically told her I have to "prove myself to her" and all she need do is be kind enough to grace me with her presence. It isn't that one cannot overcome resistance or objections but why would someone choose to skate uphill when it isn't necessary?
Blackdragon 2015-05-11 23:28:45
Where you’re in a situation say online, where the younger woman from societal conditioning and brainwashing, is objecting to you as a guy being older and as being someone she’d have nothing in common with (even though she hasn’t met you, to be able to make a genuine assessment of that), should an older guy not bother with such women. Or should he respond back and if so how, as in should he be serious, humorous, or combo of both.You're not talking about Societal Programming. You're talking about Type 1s vs Type 2s. A younger woman who is turned off by an older man is not doing so because of Societal Programming or ASD. It's because she's a Type 1. It's a personality thing. It's just her preference, and if she's a Type 1 it's an extremely strong preference, not conquerable by game. So the answer is no, don't worry about these women and next them as fast as you can. You could give them one chance as I outline here, but other than that, move on and focus on those Type 2s who actually do like older men and don't require any extra effort.
Zelcorpion 2015-05-12 00:56:04
The first time I encountered that phenomenon was some good 14 years ago while I was dating a hot 20 year old girl who was easily an 8 or 9 even for many men. While we clicked to some degree she later left me because she could not forget her 43 year old ex. The strange part back then was to hear that her ex was married, spent 2-3 days / month with her, he told her openly that he had other women and that even his wife knew about the affairs. And to top it all off she said that he was ugly, but in shape. While he was rich, he did not spend any money on her. Back then me and my friends could not fathom why she was so much into him. Now of course with Red Pill understanding I realize that a dominant successful Alpha who is in shape can attract hot girls in their prime. What I found recently is that younger girls get more social programming than ever making it more of a peer pressure not to date older men. But of course whenever you approach them during Daygame, then all bets are off. Some even openly state that they are not looking for a relationship, but something else. The simple fact is that women still find older men sexually attractive up to a certain age - 43 is possible, with great workout, diet and added value maybe in your early 50s - for women in their prime 18-28 that is. I've had a boss who was 47 and he had a very healthy lifestyle. He always said that he looked like the son of his partners with whom he had funded his company. And he did - his business partners were around his age, but looked as if they were his older uncles. He himself was attractive enough to pull 20-something girls. If women find Johnny Depp, Keanu Reeves in their 50s attractive, then they are not fooling anyone. The tingles never lie, but the female "life-planning" is lying to men since time immemorial.
LulaMula 2015-08-27 00:58:46
I am going on 4 years with my guy. I met him when I was 24 and he was 50. I was attracted to him… tall, built, and just plain handsome to me. He does look a few yrs younger than his age. As I got to know him better and he introducing me to his life style, we connected. No money interest by the way, he was just (retired now) a cashier at a local grocery store. His age never entered my mind nor does it bother me. My family, they're against my relationship with him. One of their reasons, he has slept with many woman … a span of approximately 35 years of active sex w/ different women (which is true- and me still being a virgin at 25). The 2nd main reason- no family for me. Most older men are not looking for kids, they've done that part. They're looking for fun not changing diapers. So to my family dating an older man means I'll never be a mom. Which I have found to be true in my case. My man wants no kids, but that's a different story.
Rachel 2015-09-24 21:43:37
Thank you for writing this blog. I currently get judged by being interested in men 10- 15 years older than me. I come from a two parent home with one sibling 12 years older than me. I grew up around older people. My friendships and relationships are always with people older than me. I don't even notice the difference because we are able to relate with each other. Most of the time it is the guy freaking out that I must be a flake when in fact all my relationships have been serious long term types. I wish others would focus on themselves and not be so critical. I understand the toxic older man/ younger girl scenario. My childhood friend never knew her dad and when she turned 18 she was with a guy 20 years older. It was clearly toxic because neither of them worked, they relied on his relatives for support, he had 5 kids from 5 different women, he had assault charges, they moved in together within 2 or 3 months, and after moving in he became verbally abusive. Then 3 months later he murdered my friend. My point being it's clear to spot a healthy and unhealthy relationship with an age gap.
bruce 2016-03-17 11:21:43
Big age gaps in real life are very rare ,and thats a fact.Difference is 5-6 years top.Period. Wilkipedia source : Age difference in heterosexual married couples, 2013 US Current Population Survey Age difference Percentage of All Married Couples Husband 20+ years older than wife 1.0 Husband 15–19 years older than wife 1.6 Husband 10–14 years older than wife 4.8 Husband 6–9 years older than wife 11.6 Husband 4–5 years older than wife 13.3 Husband 2–3 years older than wife 20.4 Husband and wife within 1 year 33.2 Wife 2–3 years older than husband 6.5 Wife 4–5 years older than husband 3.3 Wife 6–9 years older than husband 2.7 Wife 10–14 years older than husband 1.0 Wife 15–19 years older than husband 0.3 Wife 20+ years older than husband
Phaze 2016-04-23 20:51:33
What I find interesting is that western movies portray the hero as a realistic middle aged ( 30's or so) and yet the young date closer to their age. In asian movies, the hero is quite young , maybe teens or 20's. And the young tend to date older than the west. You'd think the hero age would be our main attraction. I guess there are other cultural reasons for our values and choices (ie: asian culture teaching respect for their elders). My Asian friends dad prefers western movies, cuz of that realism. he gets annoyed with the unrealistic heroes in asian movies. lol Thought someone might have something to say about this.
JJ 2016-11-22 05:12:52
I just found this site today and I have a great deal to say. I will do my best to stay on topic here and not get too involved with side thoughts powered by the excitement I have after reading not only the male replies, but also the females that were honest and sincere. I may not agree with everything the ladies have said, but I certainly have a sense that most have a good sense of self and are not out to simply hit and run with an insult or put down. I am 49 going on 50 in a few months and although I have always dated and had sex with women much younger than myself (Always legal age of course) I think the number 50 had done a number on my psyche to the point I was learning how to be very unsuccessful with women - I saw it somewhere here - learning to become a beta. Wow that is such a perfect and real description I am still floored. Anyway, I had always been somewhat aloof naturally which played well with the curiosity factor all women "seem" to have. It all changed with my last LTR. I had never experienced the "Love" of a narcissist before and somehow through gas-lighting, projecting, and flat out lying - I went from Alpha 3.0 to DOOR MAT. I had never been in this experience. Never. Someone said it here earlier - I had to win. I wasn't going to be cheated on and lied to and stolen from and just treated like complete shit - I was going to WIN THIS GIRL OVER. That went on for 8 months. I still don't even know who that person was. Finally I got some information about narcissistic supply and literally the text book definition of this was the woman I "Loved" - Long long long story short - I figured out that the person I was "in love with" didn't exist anywhere but in my mind. I said - F This - Left and that is where it got reaaallly bad. I met a 22 year old. A very hot, I mean perfection in my mind physically, 22 year old that was really cool and awesome to talk to. I played it so cool with her that it was obvious that I had won the first round with her. Sadly, I PLAYED it so cool with her. I didn't get it. Where did I go? I never had to PLAY it cool, I either was cool to a girl or I wasn't - If they were hot of course I wanted to have a meaningful sexual relationship with them, but if it didn't happen I didn't lose sleep over it. Well I lost sleep over this 22 year old. I saw her as physically flawless and just mentally flawed enough to keep my interest. Over six months while she was away at College we stayed pretty much in contact via instant messenger and texts 24 x 7. In one week we had sent over 1400 messages back and forth. Not little ones either.... long drawn out what we wanted to do to each other, running away together fantasies and eventually the L word came flying out of nowhere from both of us. It was HEAT from the first meet - and we didn't even see each other until that six months went past... she came to my place. I wanted to seduce and treat her like a prize, she wanted to be treated like a whore. It was such a conflicting set of ideals that honestly I still to this day (7 or 8 months later) can feel the kick of a horse in my stomach when I think of all of the things I could, should and normally would have done with this amazingly hot girl. I was stuck in a fantasy of her perfection. She was stuck in the fantasy of how much of a bad boy I was... god man... when we finally fucked it was a tornado of confusion... she ended up crying, I ended up comforting her the whole time not even feeling like I was in the same atmosphere with her let alone the same bed. We spooned for a little bit and promises were made to take things a little more cautiously when she came back to see me again. She got up and left - she turned to look at me before she was out the door and I knew the look. She would not be coming back. Not ever. She took the mental photograph of her trophy lying in bed looking at her with kindness and desire and she was gone. I was fucked up devastated. My point to this whole long and hopefully not too boring story is - it's not the young women that always get traumatized. Sometimes it's the old man with dreams of conquest, virility and perhaps finding the one he has always wanted, that takes the loss. And it's a hard loss staring at 50. I thought that she was going to be the last young beautiful woman I would ever feel the touch of and it went horribly wrong... I felt like "OK, I am Old Now. It's over. I had an EXCELLENT run in life but I guess I should just go out and find the local bar that doesn't already have the old guy that everyone loves sitting in his chair every day from 2pm to 7pm talking to all the pretty ladies but scoring with none as he lives his life of lonliness and feeding a cat he is allergic to." Thank GOD for this site. It has helped me immensely in literally one 12 hour period more than any of my buddies have, more than anything really. The funny thing is there is a BEAUTIFUL 21 year old in my life that is totally type three - and I see her throwing me signal after signal that I just keep chalking up to wishful thinking on my part. I mean I had become my own worst enemy. I ride my mountain bike in the desert approximately 30 miles day for fun. I am in excellent shape. I am still that guy that can make you laugh and still be there with a shoulder if you need to cry. I don't do the friend zone thing... at least I never had... and I literally had just said - It's OK, I don't need that warmth or affection - I am just fine. God... this has been a very long yet whirlwind fast year with more strangeness in my life than can remember in the last 5 combined. Thank you for this site. You just pulled me out of my own created prison. Thank you thank you thank you.
40Something 2017-06-29 16:37:42
Stumbled across your blog BD while I was so vehemently shot down by a 21 year old millenial. Type 1 explains it. I think us older men can actually blow these younger womens' minds when it comes to real life. Perhaps that's part of the attraction from Type 2's and 3's?
Jaycee 2017-09-03 18:44:33
As a good looking, in shape 50 something year old, I am having an eye opening experience reading this blog. I am now wanting to get back into dating and didn't want to date anyone near my age. Too much baggage, set in their ways, hardened to life, etc. I thought life of dating someone hot and younger was over. When I say younger a 35 year old would do for me. I have been having conversations with twenty something and thirty somethings. They seem to be flirting with me but I just brushed it off as wishful thinking on my part. Not knowing there were women who would actually want to date a much older man. Next time a young women is flirting, I am going to seize the moment! Keep the articles on this subject going.
bingo bango 2017-12-15 10:21:40
>I know, I know, they’re celebrities. Doesn’t matter. The question above clearly stated that the man was normal-looking. I agree with you that if a 19 year-old woman dates a 45 year-old man who is fat, hairy, wrinkly, and bald, then yeah, that’s kinda gross. But I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about a normal, healthy-looking man. Sorry, this doesn't hold water. Have you seen the rate of male pattern baldness or obesity of EITHER gender? Baldness is >50% and obesity is rapidly approaching that for young to middle aged adults. Your claim of what is normal (im assuing full head of hair, thin, etc), is not normal in today's world, at all. Even baldness isn't cured by good eating habits or gym routine that makes you thin and healthy, therefore baldness isn't a growing issue. Its always been with us.
Alise 2018-01-28 13:38:54
I'm a woman who have dated 42 years old man when I was 24. At that time I fell in love with him within an hour... Yes! That was something I had no control over..! Personally I was in a bad place in my life, he helped me to get on with my life by hiring me in his office... At some point we even talked about getting married, only after 3 - 4 months in dating... Although I wasn't entirely sure as my attraction to him faded and I wanted to go abroad and study to get a proper education. He was divorced and had 3 children, oldest only couple of years younger than me. Now I have Masters degree, speak 3 languages and married to a young man... I want to be respectful to every situation and every mindset, but all I can say to younger women who are now involved with an older man, make sure you have your personal confidence achieved by now, and you're 10000% sure you want that person in the next 20-30 years. As things then will be completely different in Every aspect. Women live on average 7 years longer, just think and Google multiple stories of women who had married seniors and now have entirely different perspective on things, comparing to what they imagined in their naive mind at the age of below 30. This is to say that many men have quite an arrogant attitude towards the 'naysayers' who don't support the huge age gap, not to mention that some of them almost feel entitled ONLY to the younger women..! Dear men! Don't forget that young women are still naive at that age, and I can testify that based on my personal experience, but when they get pregnant and kids come, they will not leave you when you are old, women are more forgiving! Shame that men aren't !