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How To Start A Non-Monogamous Relationship Correctly
-By Caleb Jones
When some men, perhaps most Alpha Males, get into a new relationship, they lie to the woman about being sexually exclusive. They tell the woman that she’s the only one, and then cheat on her. As I’ve often said, men are very bad at keeping cheating a secret, so invariably these men eventually get caught and massive drama ensues.
Since I don’t like drama, I don’t do that. I’m 100% honest with women at all times.
Honesty is good, but some other Alphas take this concept to an opposite extreme. While entering into a new relationship with a new woman, they verbalize everything right up front. Well before the third date, these guys say something like, “Look, sweetheart. I’m going to fuck other girls while I’m with you. That’s the way I am. If you don’t like it, you should get the hell out.”
I wholeheartedly applaud these men’s attitude and the outcome independence. I really do. I wish there were more men in society like this.
The problem is as a technique this approach doesn’t work.
I see some of you objecting already, so I’ll clarify.
1. It might work if all you want are one night stands or very short-term relationships.
2. It can work if you are blatantly wealthy and throw a lot of money at the women you date.
3. It can work if you’re a celebrity, particularly a good looking one. Channing Tatum or Brad Pitt could probably pull this approach off with very little problem.
These exceptions are all well and good, but the reality is you’re probably not a wealthy celebrity who makes it rain $100 bills on women you have sex with. Also, statistically speaking most of you Alphas desire relationships that last longer than two or three months.
If you’re that normal kind of guy, and you want a longer-term nonmonogamous relationship with a woman, bludgeoning her over the head with this stuff right up front in the relationship will not work. It will usually result in a very offended and angry woman who will dump your ass and keep on looking.
As I’ve have discussed countless times and in countless ways, women are not robot-like creatures making rational decisions in their dating and relationship lives. Women are full to the brim with false Societal Programming, Obsolete Biological Wiring, and ASD. Even worse, the older she is the more SP and ASD she’ll have.
All of this is directly opposed to the concept of you sleeping with her while sleeping with other women. Granted, in just the last few years, women have really come around on this, and the trend is a good one, but we’re still not at the point where you can meet a random cutie on OKCupid and tell her on the first date that you’re going to be nonmonogamous. (Don’t worry, that day is coming, but not quite yet.)
Notice that I said her SP and ASD is opposed to you doing this. She isn’t opposed to you doing it at all. I, as well as thousands of other men all over the world, are living proof of how women will let you do this, provided you set up the relationship correctly in the initial stages. A little later in the relationship, as in three to five months in, you can verbalize everything, but not before then (unless she's a rare exception to the rule or has lots of prior open/poly experience).
I talked about how to do that in the linked post above. I also go into step-by-step detail on how to do this in my open relationships ebook. Today I’m going to explain exactly why this blunt honesty stuff doesn’t work in setting up a new and still-young nonmonogamous relationship (at least the vast majority of the time).
Imagine your special lady is in the bathroom and is going to take a shower. Let’s assume she’s already naked. Let’s also assume you really like it when she takes freezing cold showers; it turns you on for some weird reason.
Imagine that you turn the shower on, and leave it on ice cold water. Then you pick her up and throw her in there. What is she going to do?
Of course she’s going to scream, “Aaaah! Too cold!” and leap out. Then she'll have some choice words for you.
That’s what you’re doing when you hit her over the head with this nonmonogamous stuff right on the first date (or second, or third). It’s way too much for her SP, OBW, and ASD to handle. She’s been told all of her life, by her mom, girlfriends, teachers, religion, Hollywood, and the media that when you date a man you have feelings for, he has sex with just you and no one else. Otherwise he’s an asshole and you need to dump him ASAP.
This is completely false of course, but that’s the bullshit she’s been programmed with. Your strong, Alpha statement is nothing compared to the decades of false programming that’s been built up in her mind. All you get is a massive amount of resistance, and likely some hurt feelings on her part too.
Let’s take the opposite example, that of most men who promise monogamy and then cheat. Let’s say you turn the shower on and turn it to really warm. You wait until the water is a nice, warm, comfortable temperature. You tell her, “See honey? The water is warm, just like you like it.” You touch it to demonstrate it’s warm. You have her touch it to prove that it’s warm. Then she smiles at you, tells you what a great boyfriend you are, and gets in the shower.
She’s showering and loving it. After a few minutes, when her back is turned away, you reach in and quickly turn the shower to ice-cold.
What happens? She screams, leaps out of the shower, and you’ve got some drama on your hands.
This is what most guys do. They adhere to a woman’s false SP and ASD, play along with the monogamy game, make her feel comfortable, then cheat on her behind her back, get caught, and have all kinds of problems and chaos.
Notice that both the cheaters and the blunt-honesty guys are putting up with drama and resistance. The blunt-honesty guys are getting it right up front, the cheaters are getting it a little later, but they're both getting it.
Compare that to me. I don’t have any drama or resistance despite the fact I'm sleeping with other women constantly and all of my women know it. (No one has "zero" drama of course. I might get rare, tiny smidges of drama, perhaps 1-3 times per year grand total accounting for all the women I date, but that's it.) Here’s how I do it:
When I turn the shower on for her, I don’t make it comfortable warm, nor do I make it ice cold. I make it just lukewarm enough to be tolerable. I make it very clear to her that the water is lukewarm, not perfectly warm like she’d like it. She then enters the shower, slowly and carefully, with my help. It’s not as warm as she’d like, but she does like it, and starts to shower.
As she showers, I talk to her. About once every 90 seconds, I turn the dial just a tiny bit towards the cold when she’s not looking. Every 90 seconds I do this, as we’re talking. For a long time, she doesn’t even notice the water is getting colder. After about a few minutes, the water is actually cold. She might comment on the water being cold, and I just shrug. She may even ask me if I’ve been turning the dial. Again, I just smile and shrug. I don’t deny it, but I don’t verbalize it either.
All the while, I keep on turning that dial every 90 seconds or so. Soon, the water is just as cold as it was for the blunt-honesty guy, yet my girl is still in the shower, having been slowly acclimated to the new temperature. As a matter of fact, soon she actually comments about how good and refreshing the cold water feels.
Finally, she says, "Okay, you've been turning the shower cold as we've been talking, right?" And I respond, "Yep." But by then it doesn't matter. She's already accustomed to the cold water, and has little or no problem with it, and stays in the shower with a smile on her face. Again, she might even like the cold water, a cold shower being something new and interesting she's never experienced before.
This is exactly why my method works so well, and with such a large success rate. This is why I’m able to be nonmonogamous with women who have never been nonmonogamous before, and yet I’m able to maintain many years-long relationships with women with virtually zero drama.
Your Alpha Male 2.0 world of MLTRs and FBs (and possibly an OLTR) is so different from the world she’s accustomed to, you can’t just pull her into it and expect her to like it. You have to slowly, gently, and lovingly bring her into your world. If you do that, not only will she enter your world, but in most cases, she’ll actually start to prefer that world over her old world, and stay there for a lot longer than you'd expect.
I’ve done it scores of times with women of all ages, races, backgrounds, and personality types.
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Tony 2015-08-13 06:53:05
This is something I'm in the middle of dealing with. On the third date last weekend I had sex for the first time with this girl, and she started talking as if we were engaged, and she wouldn't stop asking about how I viewed the relationship. So even though I wanted to dodge the question as long as possible, I decided to spike it right there. I not only told her that I wasn't monogamous, but that I had a vasectomy and therefore wouldn't be able to give her the children she desperately wanted even if I was interested. I'm slightly worried that she'll do exactly what you say, leave and never come back (since we've only had sex once) because I don't adhere to her Societal Programming, but she seems happy when I texted her and agreed o come over again, so it looks good.
Diggy 2015-08-13 07:32:57
I remember reading this in you book and thinking something like Tony brought up... You claim that most women won't push the issue for 3-6 months but I've experienced otherwise. Some women really try to corner a guy. Like Tony if cornered I'm more the blunt guy. Even brushing it off with sarcasm only works with most women. So, if a woman is the type that has to really push the issue is it just time to hard next? Soft next? Because she's going to be drama anyways... or at least I've found that women that push hard for their agendas don't make low drama women...EVER!
Blackdragon 2015-08-13 10:03:32
On the third date last weekend I had sex for the first time with this girl, and she started talking as if we were engaged, and she wouldn’t stop asking about how I viewed the relationship.That means the odds are good that YOU did something or said something to spark that kind of expectation. I'm not saying you did, I'm saying it's very likely. Otherwise you just happen to run into a complete weirdo. The vast, vast majority of women do not act this way very early in the relationship unless the man opened the door to that behavior in some way. I never open that door in the first 3-5 months, so I never have a problem.
You claim that most women won’t push the issue for 3-6 months but I’ve experienced otherwise. Some women really try to corner a guy.Correct, as I said to Tony, this means YOU are not following all the other correct open/poly relationship rules, such as: - Only see them once a week. - Make them cum every time you have sex. - No discussing the relationship, ever. - Minimal initiation of contact. - Avoiding too frequent (every day or close to it) contact from her. - No boyfriend behaviors (fancy dates, etc). - Etc I promise you that if a woman pushes really hard for this information before 3 months, you're doing something wrong. Note I said push hard for this, not bring it up. Many women bring it up before three months, that's when you blow it off. After 3-5 months she'll push hard; that's different. Don't mistake the two.
Like Tony if cornered I’m more the blunt guy.HA! Let me ask you a question: Do you think I'm a blunt guy??? I'm more blunt that most of you. If I can suck it up and do it, you can do it. Also remember that this advice will be harder to follow if you have more Alpha 1.0 tendencies. Remember that the core operating model of the 1.0 is to control and to be heard. Your be heard shit is going to trip you up if you don't get it under control. That's why Alpha 1.0s really hate this advice. Like the Jack Nicholson character in A Few Good Men (a classic Alpha 1.0 character), he's dying to tell everyone everything even if it means he goes to jail. He must be heard. Also, a "blunt" response from you would be, smile really big and say very clearly: "I'm not talking about this." I've done that too; works fine (AS LONG AS you're doing everything else right).
So, if a woman is the type that has to really push the issue is it just time to hard next? Soft next?If she pushes hard, you do the usual, and she actually starts giving you full-on drama? Then of course next. Soft or hard is up to you. I soft.
Because she’s going to be drama anyways… or at least I’ve found that women that push hard for their agendas don’t make low drama women…EVER!I would generally agree but often those women make great FBs.
Will 2015-08-13 12:31:14
Does the analogy of "the shower" apply to Dominants/Submissives/Independants pretty much the same way? I think your frame needs to be stronger with a Dominant. But as a dominant can never be more than an FB, I suppose not.
Blackdragon 2015-08-13 17:50:14
Does the analogy of “the shower” apply to Dominants/Submissives/Independants pretty much the same way?Yep. As I said in the post, I've done this will all personality types: dominants, submissives, and independents. It works on all three. It's true that dominants take more work, don't last as long, and often must be downgraded to FBs really fast, but it still works, particularly if they're fucking another guy who is playing the submissive beta boyfriend role.
But as a dominant can never be more than an FB, I suppose not.Bingo. Dominant must equal FB under this model, unless A) you've encountered a very weird exception to the rule, or B) you like drama.
Kurt 2015-08-13 18:34:53
"Also remember that this advice will be harder to follow if you have more Alpha 1.0 tendencies. Remember that the core operating model of the 1.0 is to control and to be heard. Your be heard shit is going to trip you up if you don’t get it under control. That’s why Alpha 1.0s really hate this advice. Like the Jack Nicholson character in A Few Good Men (a classic Alpha 1.0 character), he’s dying to tell everyone everything even if it means he goes to jail. He must be heard." Holy shit, this just set off a bunch of alarm bells in my head. I have always prided myself on being the recovering-beta-on-the-path-to-Alpha 2.0, but this describes me to a T. I have gotten it somewhat under control in the last few years but still, damn I have those urges and they still fuck me up from time to time. I never thought of myself as being Alpha 1.0 at all but now I have a different way to think about this and obviously some work to do. Thanks for making me think!
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-13 20:56:02
but we’re still not at the point where you can meet a random cutie on OKCupid and tell her on the first date that you’re going to be nonmonogamous. (Don’t worry, that day is coming, but not quite yet.)That day has basically arrived here in Sydney, Australia. Be careful what you wish for. What it creates is a society where the top couple percent of men are running HUGE harems (think 10-20 women, I'm completely serious), and every other guy gets nothing because most of these women are happy seeing the one guy and will actively compete against the other 10-20 he's seeing to lock him down (a fruitless endeavor) I'm in an open marriage with an attractive Australian girl, but date mostly foreigners on the side. Euro and North/South American. In fact US girls are AMAZING compared to the women here. At least when they first get here, before their standards shoot through the roof. You have to try and lock them in as soon as they arrive in the city. Otherwise one of the 1000 or so 10/10 players in the city will beat you out for her and slot her in his harem. Some guys will try and lock them in at the AIRPORT when they arrive (new PUA technique, ambushing foreigners at the airport), I kid you not. Most of the slim, attractive, Australian women that have been here a while are lost to a sea of hypergamy and pump and dumps, and are complete head cases. Many will refuse to date a guy who is under 6'2, is not 100% white, and male model handsome. Simply because they don't have to, there will be a guy just like that willing to add her to his double figure harem. On your advice I decided to turn a hobby (dating women etc.) into a small side business, and now do some work for dating agencies around the world. It pays for the hotels I use with my side girls. I run tinder software that pushes men to the top of girls swipe queues, giving them maximum exposure and maximum results. I've also run all sorts of race/looks etc. experiments around the world to calculate swipe rates for various guys, optimize profiles etc. So what I do is run a white male model with a perfect profile vs other guys to get a gauge of swipe ratios. A totally controlled experiment showing the same profile to the same girls at the same time. Let me give you an example of the results: In US cities my profile gets a 33%-40% like rate (which I think is huge, I'm a good looking guy), or 2.5-3/1 like ratio vs the 10/10 looks male model (the maximum swipe rate benchmark). And I can set up dates with ease and insta-pull for sex, almost like ordering a pizza in most US cities. In Eastern Europe it gets better, about 2/1 or a 50% like rate. However the women are more conservative and expect monogamy more, and insta pulls are ALOT harder. In Philippines it's essentially 1/1 basically a 100% like rate for both of us, and they will queue up outside your hotel room to wait their turn, for a good looking CAUCASIAN guy, the Filipino guys have it super tough because Caucasian guys can command huge harems. Here in Sydney Australia, my profile runs... wait for it... 10/1 or a measly 10% like rate!!! And the women will aggressively open and pursue the male model, offering to come over and have sex with him then and there. While I have to grind out every date, or get lucky with an insta-pull. Women absolutely WILL embrace a complete non-monogamous sexual free for all, and they'll do it by aggressively pursuing the top few percent of men who will DROWN in pussy. Don't you see how non-monogamy skews the percentages upward, as demonstrated above ^? Needless to say I'm moving to the US as soon as possible, NYC and Chicago are the picks, the game is a cakewalk there in comparison, but how long before rampant non-monogamy and an unabated hook-up culture skews the percentages upward everywhere, like it already has in Sydney Australia?
Blackdragon 2015-08-14 00:06:19
That day has basically arrived here in Sydney, Australia.You're wealthy and spend a lot of money on women. I already said that was one of the exceptions. However, that being said, I've also said before that women in Australia are extremely sex-positive as compared to the US or even Europe, so if this does happen, I'm sure it will happen in your part of the world first.
What it creates is a society where the top couple percent of men are running HUGE harems (think 10-20 women, I’m completely serious), and every other guy gets nothingNo, I know for a fact there are plenty of betas in Australia getting laid. (I'm headed out there later this year.) This alpha-everything beta-nothing fear is the standard right-wing manosphere fear, and it will never, ever, ever happen. For these two reasons: 1. A decent percentage of the population will always choose monogamy for whatever reason (religious people, dominant people, low sex drive people, controlling people, needy people, etc). That's where the betas will get their sex (like now). 2. By the 2040s we will have viable sex robots within the price range of the average middle class man. Even if this 100% poly-hookup culture ever occurs (which it won't), even the most pathetic betas at that point will be having sex with super hot chicks...robot ones that look and feel perfectly human.
On your advice I decided to turn a hobby (dating women etc.) into a small side business, and now do some work for dating agencies around the world.That's awesome! I'm glad you did it!
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-14 02:14:37
However, that being said, I’ve also said before that women in Australia are extremely sex-positive as compared to the USThere's sex positive, and then there's full feral. I'd say many Australian women have crossed over to the latter. I don't think these women even know what a condom is, but once again, that side of them is reserved for a few percent of men, just like white guys in the Philippines. The escort industry is currently being flooded with new comers as well, actually driving down prices, 'pimps' are recruiting them off tinder and turning them on to the industry, because when you reach that level of 'sexual positiveness', you may as well get paid for it right?
No, I know for a fact there are plenty of betas in Australia getting laid.Sure. But I want to see the quality of women they're laying and how much these women own their balls. The level of shit tests, sense of entitlement and attitude from these women is out of this world. It's Toronto on steroids. If you're 6'2, white, very good looking, and live in one of a few suburbs. Australia can be heaven, jump on tinder, every swipe is a match, ask them to come over for sex, you will have unlimited hot women. No need for dates, or niceties, It is literally that easy. If not, I hope you've got money (or cocaine) and are willing to spend it (if you want to sleep with 7+/10 women) or you have to be prepared to work 4x harder than you would in Chicago or NYC to get the same results, and when you finally do hook a girl, it'll probably be one from Europe or America anyway, or you can go Asian. I'm exaggerating, of course, but things really are that much harder here for non male model looking guys.
I’m headed out there later this year.Are you doing any meet and greets, seminars etc. while you're here?
By the 2040s we will have viable sex robots within the price range of the average middle class man. Even if this 100% poly-hookup culture ever occurs (which it won’t), even the most pathetic betas at that point will be having sex with super hot chicks…robot ones that look and feel perfectly human.I'll take 3 please, it'll certainly mean less drama from the wife. 🙂
John 2015-08-14 05:22:07
Agree Wolfof GeorgeStreet, I'm from Melbourne and a good looking 41 year old but only 5'9, and boy is it a f**king grind even to get a second date or even a lay here, and it's no doubt because they have other 6 foot+ good looking guys to fall back on (or reserve themselves for) while they're looking for "the one". Stupid shows like "The Bachelor" forced down our throats every 5 minutes doesn't help things either, now every chick thinks they can get (and deserve) a guy like that. Forget about Tinder if you're a bit older in getting chicks under 30. I've even resorted to meeting up with semi attractive chicks 6's and 7's off tinder and OKC who are 35+, and even they think they can be picky princesses. They should be lucky if I even gave them the time of day. I'm seriously over it and looking to move. The only chicks I bother with now are tourists and backpackers doing daygame, everything else sucks in this country if you're not in the top 5% in looks or status. This isn't a whine this is reality!
JJ Roberts 2015-08-14 05:28:30
My approach is different. I start a shower for her that actually is warm then I make her realise that the showers that she has been taking the whole time, although she thought they were warm, were actually cold. 😉
Bobby 2015-08-14 06:23:44
@WolfOfGeorgeStreet Wolf, I noticed you mentioned Toronto. What is your opinion of this particular city, and the women there?? I've lived there for a while now, but I haven't been single too long (was in horrible monogamy for a long time, trying to break out of it). Should I move? LOL.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-14 06:32:48
I’m from Melbourne and a good looking 41 year old but only 5’9, and boy is it a f**king grind even to get a second date or even a lay hereYep. It's because of the competition. Heaps of tall, good looking, roided up guys (If you're going to work-out here you have to use roids otherwise it's not even worthwhile) who have sworn off marriage/monogamy for good running huge harems, always on the prowl to 'upgrade' one of their girls or add another to the stable. Very aggressive and forward. So girls almost ALWAYS have a better option. In between the first date and the second. She'll be so keen for a second meet etc. but then you lose her to another guy, because they are just bombarded with better options constantly. Flaking has reached endemic proportions too, because women will not honor a date set up first if she gets a better offer before then, which almost always happens. So you have to double or triple stack dates, which guys do, and then it further exasperates the problem. This is the endgame, this is what BD doesn't realize because he hasn't lived here and experienced it. The competition is Fierce and intense. What do you think caused the lock out laws in Sydney's bars/clubs? Huge gangs of sexually frustrated roided up men roaming the streets beating up/killing people. It's that bad. I too am 5'9. Wear lifts, it'll give you a slight edge, but it's nowhere near enough. Every guy that comes here from the US (unless they are 6'+, very good looking etc.) says the same thing, getting laid with attractive women is a HUGE grind here. I mean 2.5/1 vs a male model in US cities but 10/1 here!? That is INSANE. I go from women throwing themselves at me in the US and Europe, to being insulted and degraded by them here.
Stupid shows like “The Bachelor” forced down our throats every 5 minutes doesn’t help things either, now every chick thinks they can get (and deserve) a guy like that.I have a friend. Ex model. Very, tall, white good looking, wealthy etc. He has in fact dated one of the girls from the bachelor. He has slept with over 80 women so far this year, 500+ all time. He has stories from speed dating events where women were leaving other guys tables in their allotted time to blatantly walk over to him and hand him their numbers, leaving the other guy sitting there stunned and disgusted. He was equally disgusted, instantly revealing the sort of people they were, he of course would use them for sex. Then these women would try and lock him into something serious, which is when he'd dump them.
I’m seriously over it and looking to move. The only chicks I bother with now are tourists and backpackers doing daygame, everything else sucks in this country if you’re not in the top 5% in looks or status. This isn’t a whine this is reality!Agreed 100%. I have SOLID game. I've been doing this for years, I manage an open marriage and have side girls I manage too. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to women. I've also done work for dating agencies around the world. So I can tell you that, with the exception of NZ (which is even worse), this is the worst of it. It is a STRUGGLE to get guys dates here with slim, attractive women unless they are the top few percent. So the best game in Australia is the moving abroad game. Just rest assured 95% of men here share your pain. Move to the US, believe it or not if you are a good looking guy, who is successful, you can still just ask attractive girls out for drinks there and they eagerly accept!! It's bizarre to Australian guys who are so used to our women. This is even without her knowing you're Australian (if you're doing it online and don't mention it in your profile), so no foreign advantage making it easier. This is a little off topic, but I just want guys around the world to realize that as soon as you go down the non-monogamy, sex positive, non slut shaming route. THIS is the result. It's not a good thing like BD claims UNLESS you are in that top few percent.
John 2015-08-14 06:56:23
Agree 100% Wolf. I can't even take Aussie chicks seriously anymore, they're beyond superficial and just plain retarded. Which part of the States would you recommended moving to that aren't too expensive?
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-14 07:20:52
Sorry for hijacking these comments and going OT, but I will answer this...
Which part of the States would you recommended moving to that aren’t too expensive?NYC benchmarks the best with women. Within 15 minutes on tinder you can get a girl over to your apartment (if you're in Manhattan) for sex. cost of living is expensive though, still cheaper than Sydney depending on the AUD at the time. Chicago is the next best bet. From what I've seen of the dating scene there it's essentially a 'poor man's' NYC. I have a friend who lives there and can't speak highly enough of the dating scene there. Many other guys I've corresponded with share that sentiment regarding Chicago. I'm sure the US guys can pitch in. But put it this way, if you can conquer the dating scene in Australia, you can conquer the world.
POB 2015-08-14 09:36:37
I still don't get why it's so hard for some guys to stick to a solid frame when they start a relationship. I think it's easy as hell. And I always do it in the most polite and natural way. Outcome independence is THE most powerful aphrodisiac ever invented! I'll give two quick examples. One of my current FBs is 26, slim and has a very beautiful face. She's the cutie type, one that has guys looking over their shoulders on the street. We've been seeing each other for the past 5 months. The only relationship question she's ever asked me was on the second month, around the 4th or 5th time we where together (the classical "Do you have a girlfriend?"). I said no, cracked a joke and that was it. She has never, ever asked me anything of that sort again. Sometimes I'm too busy and we spend like 15-16 days without seeing each other. No problem, she knows she's always free to crash at my place for some awesome sex! That's it. If she brings that up, we'll calmly chat like two grown-ups, I'll gently tell her what she already knows and I will let her decide what's best for her. Simple as that...and minimal drama! Another FB, 25, HB 8, this one is a strong dominant. Earlier this year I had to soft-next her due to increased drama. No problem! After 3 months she came back with minimal effort from my part. Sex was great again! After a while she decided to bail us to pursue her "expanded carrer choices". No sweat, she will probably come back again (Im currently seeing a lot of her feminist posts on facebook: "How a man must behave to deserve you" kinda of BS, which in my book means lack of quality sex). Frame is everything!
Doubter 2015-08-14 09:59:17
@Bobby......I live in Toronto and am having no issues meeting/laying women Canadian guys have poor game generally I've found so it is easier to stand out. Happy to connect and share my experiences......
Bobby 2015-08-14 10:36:52
@Doubter ... Thanks a lot man, that's good to hear. The one thing I have noticed in Toronto is that the whole "pitch the date after 2 or 3 emails" doesn't work at all. I've met women from online game, but only after exchanging a lot of emails back and forth. Women are very eager to meet you, but not right away (maybe because of ASD, it's not because of safety concerns). Have you had the same experience with this? Any tips?
Themaster 2015-08-14 10:58:25
Interesting analogy and breakdown of how you establish your non monogamous relationships. My viewpoint or frame or mindset when I first talk to a girl communicates it would be your loss if you didn't get with me. If a girl refuses to it really is her loss. And I believe that because any guy she messes with won't be able to offer what I can which is the best and constantly improving version of me. And frankly if a girl wants anything else from me but that I don't want to fuck with her. So slowly vs suddenly unveiling the cloak of lies is the difference you explain. A man gives a woman the truth when she asks and stands behind it because his brand is wanted by many especially because there is no man on earth that will ever be similar to him before, now or in the future. People buy Apple products because of what it represents for a certain price. Apple never negotiates or hides what it respresents, it's specs, hardware, capabilities are laid out for all to see. Many refuse the price but many buy into it because it's worth it to them. Apple does want those customers that don't buy it but they don't lower their price or lose much sleep over it.
Blackdragon 2015-08-14 11:44:33
Sure. But I want to see the quality of women they’re laying and how much these women own their balls.That isn't what you said earlier. You said betas will get nothing. Of course the quality for betas is terrible and women will always own their balls. That's always been the case with betas way before Tinder or the internet. It was the case in the 1980s and 1990s. I saw it with my own eyes over and over again. There's a big difference between saying betas get nothing and betas get low quality. If your argument is they get low quality, you're correct, since it's been that way for at least 70 years, if not forever. If you're saying they'll get "nothing," you're incorrect and being an alarmist.
Are you doing any meet and greets, seminars etc. while you’re here?Yes, I"m doing a two-day workshop in Melbourne. Nothing planned for Sydney yet.
Agree Wolfof GeorgeStreetTrust me on this: You can publicly say "It's hard to get laid in <pick a random city>" and you'll get guys complaining it's hard in that city. I just had an email from a guy saying it was "impossible to use my technqiues in Chicago" because the women were too difficult. Little did he know I personally know several average-looking guys in Chicago getting laid right now (with my stuff). That applies to any city in the Western world you can name. Some normal guys will be getting laid there, some other normal guys will be complaining it's "hard" or "impossible" there. I agree some cities are better than others, but to state it's "hard" or "impossible" to get laid in any city with millions of women living there doesn't make any sense. Guys in Australia bitching about women in Australia and wanting to move to the US, while there are guys in the US bitching about women in the US wanting to move to eastern Europe. Doesn't this strike you as at least a little silly?
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-14 16:56:40
Guys in Australia bitching about women in Australia and wanting to move to the US, while there are guys in the US bitching about women in the US wanting to move to eastern Europe. Doesn’t this strike you as at least a little silly?Not at all, because EE IS better than the US, the percentages aren't as narrow and the women are (on average), slimmer and better looking. It's just that things are so bad here, that the US is considerably better. This has been extensively tested, it's so easy to get hard evidence of this from controlled experiments from tinder alone these days. Happy to send you my profile etc. BD if you don't believe me. You don't just go from closing models in NYC to getting blasted by 7's in Australia without there being something to all this. Of course, you'll always get guys in any city complaining, those are the ones that don't make the 'alpha' cut. In the US it's the top 20% (A successful, decent looking guy, with a great online dating profile can still do well there), in EE it's the top 40% (so all you really need is a decent job) here it's the top 5%! Australia is further along in the 'non-monogamy and sexual freedom for all' experiment. Nothing can make a guy, 6'+, very good looking and whiter, and it has gotten to the point here where that's a pre-requisite to making the grade because the percentages are so skewed upward. Many woman will not compromise on height or looks or status or anything else here because she doesn't have to. She'll easily be slotted into a harem of a guy like that. That is because religion is all but dead here, and monogamy along with it. Now of course there are exceptions, but these few women who are willing to compromise are getting chased so hard by the other 95% that you may as well be playing a lottery. It's all about how skewed the percentages are at the top. So you'll get a 5%'r raving about how good a city is and how sexually aggressive the women are and how easy it is to get laid, then the other 95% will have a whole different experience. It's non-monogamy that causes this tightening of percentages at the top. I'm not some angry guy who has no success with women. I'm in an open marriage and do get laid on the side, but I'm telling you that it is 4x harder to achieve here than in the US. Come here and see for yourself. Best of luck 😉 There's a reason we have the highest rape stat outside Africa and the highest concentration of steroid use among young men.
Blackdragon 2015-08-14 19:07:05
Of course, you’ll always get guys in any city complaining, those are the ones that don’t make the ‘alpha’ cut.No, I didn't say Alphas, I said normal guys. I know for a fact there are normal, non-Alpha guys in Sydney/Melbourne getting laid by cute chicks, and have no more trouble doing so than Americans. Again, I completely agree that certain cities are better than others. If you say that Sydney is harder to get laid in than Chicago, then I believe you. But to declare that "non-Alphas can't get laid in our town" or "95% of men here can only fuck ugly chicks" is not only silly, but I know for a fact it's not true. And I don't care if you're talking about Sydney or Toronto or any other huge city. But hey, if you hate where you live, by all means move. I've been saying that here for many years now. Lastly, if you think nonmonogamy makes it harder for non-Alphas to get laid in Australia (which again, I know isn't true, even just typing that makes me laugh), then you'd have a hard time explaining another "harder" cities like Toronto or San Francisco, places where nonmonogamy isn't a "thing" at all (outside of the gay population). As I said above, nonmonogamy doesn't equal "harder to get laid unless you're a male model millionaire". There are many factors that make a city worse than others.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-14 19:58:58
But to declare that “non-Alphas can’t get laid in our town” or “95% of men here can only fuck ugly chicks” is not only silly, but I know for a fact it’s not true. And I don’t care if you’re talking about Sydney or Toronto or any other huge city.You're right actually. I was exaggerating to the extreme. A better way of putting it is that the time/effort required to get laid by attractive women for the 95% is so high that the ROI is abysmal, to the point that you begin to question if it's even worth it. As an aside SD/SB rates can go down to $150 a night in Chicago (or even just a nice dinner and drinks), good luck finding that for under about $350-$400 here for the same quality/time if you go that route. Just using that as an example because its a quantifiable comparison of the relative markets. Essentially the market is tougher, and pussy is more expensive here, when weighing up either your time or your money.
Lastly, if you think nonmonogamy makes it harder for non-Alphas to get laid in Australia (which again, I know isn’t true, even just typing that makes me laugh), then you’d have a hard time explaining another “harder” cities like Toronto or San Francisco, places where nonmonogamy isn’t a “thing” at all (outside of the gay population). As I said above, nonmonogamy doesn’t equal “harder to get laid unless you’re a male model millionaire”. There are many factors that make a city worse than others.You are correct. Non-monogamy isn't the ONLY factor, but it IS a factor. Other factors are male/attractive female ratio (probably the biggest factor), obesity rates, level of liberalism, penetration of feminism, laws, culture (eg. importance of family), wealth (particularly wealth gaps), and a whole heap of other socio-economic and demographic factors. Sydney (and other Australian cities to a lesser extent) is essentially the perfect storm. While you're here consciously make a simple observation. Look at the couples you see around you. Compare the relative attractiveness of the male to his female partner. You'll notice alot of tall, very good looking, very fit guys, with overweight, unattractive women. You'll rarely see the opposite here (unless she's Asian).
John 2015-08-14 22:14:21
^^^^ Agree with Wolf. Just to give an idea of how bad it is here to the non Aussies so you can see it from our eyes. I used to daygame occasionally with a Malaysian dude, he was young, good looking, cool and looked after himself, but he was also only around 5'9. He daygamed for months on end and he would have approached hundreds of chicks. The result? Not only did he not get laid one single time, but he had 15 flakes in a row! yep that's how bad it is. He said "The chicks here are only after a certain type", and he quit and I never heard from him again. My guess is the poor bastard went back to Malaysia. I also know an Indian guy who spent a few thousand on a Pick Up Course by some guru (the guru is well above 6 foot and buffed, no surprise there), so far he has been daygaming almost daily for a year and he hasn't been laid once! We went out one night a few months ago and he was so destroyed by a years worth of constant rejection that he couldn't even bring himself to approach 1 single girl. Haven't heard from him again. Caucasians have a tough time, but Indians, Asians, Sri Lankans etc here have it 10 times worse. I could go on and on, I've seen them come and go like the wind, but the tall good looking guys? they don't have to do jack shit and girls are swooning all over them no matter how much of a tosser he is. Alpha or Beta, it's irrelevant. Wolf is spot on, we live here and have to put up with this shit and know what it's like. 40+ guys hooking up young attractive 18-23 year olds online? Unheard of, not a snowflakes chance in hell. A pipe dream. I've been doing online for 3 years and only ever met 2 chicks under 30. In fact you would be lucky to meet ANY chick here under 33 if you're 40+. No even worth the time and effort anymore. I even showed pro photos of me playing in my band, but it makes no difference when they see your height. As pathetic and disturbing as the show is, The Bachelor is an accurate reflection on how bad things are here. Dozens of attractive chicks fighting and competing over a guy who is in the top 1% in looks. They are sold on him before they even meet him. Like Wolf said, the ROI is so piss poor here, that moving is the only option OR do a shit load of mass spam approaching during the day to score a rare lay with a hot young chick. It's certainly not going to come from night game or online game no matter how Alpha you are (or think you are) if you're not in the top 5% in looks/ status. Sorry for the rant, but this is a reality check. I suspect the guys Blackdragon know from Melbourne and Sydney who do well with attractive chicks, are either: a) full of shit, b) tall/ young/ good looking, c) have time to do mass approaches during the day for months on end and just play the numbers d) have high social value (money, DJ, singer etc).
Blackdragon 2015-08-14 22:23:50
40+ guys hooking up young attractive 18-23 year olds online? Unheard of, not a snowflakes chance in hell. A pipe dream.And you are dead wrong. I've seen several men do it, mostly in Melbourne, but at least one of them in Sydney. Age 40+ men, fucking women under 23 who were hot, via purely online game (not Tinder though), within 3 dates or less, for under $40 total spent, and none of these older guys (with the exception of one) was good looking. (They weren't ugly either, but they weren't anywhere near "hot.") George got it right on his final post above. I'm sure it's harder there, but not "impossible." Make all the boo-hoo excuses you want. If you seriously want to say that a non-uberAlpha can't have sex with a pretty girl in a city of almost 5 million people, you're welcome to that silly belief, and I'm glad I'm not you.
John 2015-08-14 22:42:07
^^^^ I never said it can't be done, but it is very very tough and was just reiterating what Wolf was trying to explain. No hard feelings.
Ray 2015-08-14 22:56:47
Great article, Blackdragon. I was always curious about how you managed to get women in MLTR. I just have 2 questions. 1. I remember reading in another post that the women you date are allowed to see other people too, which seems fair to me. There are many alphas who see other women but don't allow their girlfriends to do the same. How do you communicate that they have your permission to your MLTRs in the first months of the relationship? I wouldn't like to spend 6 months sarging and banging other girls while my new MLTR, not being sure about what are the rules of our relationship, stays loyal to me or feels guilty for "cheating". 2. Do you accept the friend requests in facebook of your new MLTRs and FBs when they still aren't sure if you date other women? Having them all in facebook seems quite tricky and risky. If the answer is no, then how do you handle the situation?
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-14 22:58:35
BD is right. It's not IMPOSSIBLE, but if you do the math and consider the wages in Australia, you're better off just spending that time working and paying escorts, which is legal. OTH if you want more than just a transactional relationship, your best bet is moving, by far. Or be prepared to work, very, very, very hard and to spam approach. I'm 30, good looking and wealthy, and I do well, but it's a fraction of the success I have overseas. Some posts/articles that might interest you John, first is a friend also in Syd, last one is me and links to articles that will resonate with you (and to 95% of Australian men). I've got enough of these guys onto BD's stuff so hopefully he doesn't mind me posting the links: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167924021&p=1383969483&viewfull=1#post1383969483 http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167924021&p=1381749863&viewfull=1#post1381749863 I myself am taking active steps to make the move overseas. I suggest you do the same, and I'll continue to maintain that, no slut shaming, 'sexual positive' women etc. is one of the biggest contributors to a society like we have here. Running 10/1 on tinder vs the male model here and having hundreds of girls offering to come over and have sex with him then and there, vs running 2.5/1 in US cities and many women insisting on dates before sex just demonstrates this. If BD still disagrees on this point, then we're just going to have to respectfully agree to disagree.
Five Six 2015-08-14 23:07:17
So on your dating profile, would you still put "single" under relationship status? That would actually be outright lying for me, unsure if "married" or "open relationship" is better. I'll need to do my own study here, but curious.
Blackdragon 2015-08-15 00:14:06
How do you communicate that they have your permission to your MLTRs in the first months of the relationship?You never communicate this. You simply don't ever issue orders or relationship parameters. Once it's clear to her you're fucking other women, she'll either fuck other guys or not. In my experience about 50% of women don't; the other 50% will eventually, but even those won't be doing it consistently like you will be.
Do you accept the friend requests in facebook of your new MLTRs and FBs when they still aren’t sure if you date other women?Not only do I accept their requests, but before I became somewhat well known I'd purposely add them to Facebook. Facebook is a great way to re-acquire them once they LSNFTE you. Also, I want to strongly subcommunicate my open/poly status, so I want them to see other women posting on my FB page. The only reason I don't do this quite as often now is becaue I'm a public figure. But you won't have that limitation.
Having them all in Facebook seems quite tricky and risky.I've only had Facebook drama a grand total of two times in the last eight years of doing this, and those two times were both over five years ago. It's not "tricky or risky" in any way if you don't try to hide what you are. There's a difference between not verbalizing and hiding. I'm recommending the former, not the latter. I never hide a thing; I want them to know. I just don't verbalize it.
So on your dating profile, would you still put “single” under relationship status? That would actually be outright lying for me, unsure if “married” or “open relationship” is better.I put single, because I don't have a "girlfriend" and I'm not living with anyone. If you have a live-in OLTR, then you could say "married" or whatever but your response rates will plummet to near-zero. Until you get some experience/confidence, it's better to say you're single then tell her when you meet up on the first date what your situation is. And you'd better be VERY confident and VERY outcome independent when you do it. Attracting side-women when you are publicly "married" is a high intermediate/advanced level of game.
Robbie 2015-08-15 00:43:44
Hey fellas. I live in Melbourne and have found that the best way to get laid with hotties regularly in Australia is through social circle game. Cold approaching and online game, are just not a great idea here. These women can have all these "rules" when it comes to height, age and attractiveness, but those rules apply to guys who cold approach them, or online dating. If you're the king of a social circle, and you get introduced to hotties through friends, and they've heard about you, and you have some level of outcome independance/game, then its not that hard. Also if you want to compete with guys who are taller and better looking than you, you have to have some sort of masculine edge that sets you apart. Goodlookingloser has great advice on dressing edgy, and it really helps.
Robbie 2015-08-15 00:56:14
Oh and Blackdragon, it looks like they're trying to challenge you to pull some hot pussy while you're in Australia, show em their excuses are just excuses 😉
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-15 01:12:29
I live in Melbourne and have found that the best way to get laid with hotties regularly in Australia is through social circle game. Cold approaching and online game, are just not a great idea here.Agreed, but social circle game isn't very helpful for someone in a discreet open marriage. I do fine online. But it is very difficult compared to the US, unless you are 5%'r, then you will crush it. Think 100 girls a year territory for those guys. Besides my overarching point wasn't that Australia is so bad (it is, but still not the point), it was that it's bad in large part because of the ubiquitous, non-monogamous, hook-up culture here that puts the rest of the world to shame.
Oh and Blackdragon, it looks like they’re trying to challenge you to pull some hot pussy while you’re in Australia, show em their excuses are just excusesPlease do. I pull strippers, models, reality TV 'celebrities' etc. here and abroad. I KNOW what I'm talking about. If he's actively pursuing 8+/10 18-30yo women while he's here I would LOVE to see how he does. He's in for a rude shock and will have his work cut out for him.
John 2015-08-15 01:30:19
^^^^ Best chance for a regular guy in Melbourne to bang hotties regularly IMO (discounting social circle) is going for foreigners and backpackers shortly after they arrive. Other than that, going for SDL by spam approaching until you come across a "yes" girl who is horny right then and there and have super tight logistics for the lay (ie. close apartment, hotel etc)
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-15 01:46:01
Best chance for a regular guy in Melbourne to bang hotties regularly IMO (discounting social circle) is going for foreigners and backpackers shortly after they arrive. Other than that, going for SDL by spam approaching until you come across a “yes” girl who is horny right then and there and have super tight logistics for the lay (ie. close apartment, hotel etc)100% spot on. It's funny how we agree 100% on all this stuff and are totally in tune with our assessment, any other guy I know who's good with women and isn't top percentile here will agree with this too. I dated one 9 earlier this year (Eastern European, actually met her on Tinder) and her previous bf picked her up on THE PLANE OVER HERE, so she'd just entered the Syd dating scene for the first time coming out of that relationship, which was probably the only reason I was lucky enough to snag the date, I was just the first guy she matched. Gotta try and snag em before they even land, because as soon as they jump on Tinder or enter a club/bar here, game over. LOL The competition here is that fierce and aggressive.
POB 2015-08-15 05:40:01
Im sure BD will agree with me on this one: according to my personal experience, if you say "I cannot do X because of Y and W" 99% of the time it is just a mental hurdle you're putting in front of yourself.
I put single, because I don’t have a “girlfriend” and I’m not living with anyone. If you have a live-in OLTR, then you could say “married” or whatever but your response rates will plummet to near-zero.Doesn't facebook got an "open relationship" status?
Five Six 2015-08-15 06:04:39
Facebook does... and speaking of that, do you post photos of you and (some of) these women? Or do you simply post fun stuff you do, and have all your women simply be friends?
Al 2015-08-15 06:50:35
Very interesting discussion this. But in among it all, hats off to POB who mentions Outcome Independence. Two little words which will save you every time if you begin to lose frame. I'm new to all this and I've had some heart stopping moments when I've applied some learning for the first time. If I ever get stuck, I stop, and just repeat Outcome Independence over and over in my mind until I settle. Works like a dream. There three most important things are: 1) Saying No. 2) Minimum contact. 3) Outcome independence. I just cannot believe how this brings them back, time after time, whatever else they may get up to while they are away. 😀 This applies to when they have removed themselves because I'm not being or doing what they want.
Doubter 2015-08-15 07:15:54
@Bobby Don't worry about the three email date pitch lol. Use all the time you need as long as you are moving forward. Post a contact for you and I can reach out off this comment board.
Blackdragon 2015-08-15 09:51:27
If you say “I cannot do X because of Y and W” 99% of the time it is just a mental hurdle you’re putting in front of yourself.Correct.
Doesn’t facebook got an “open relationship” status?I think he was asking about online dating profile status, not FB status. But never, ever put any relationship status on FB. Always leave it blank or hidden. The only exception to this if if you're actually married and living with someone, and even then I could find reasons to not do this.
do you post photos of you and (some of) these women? Or do you simply post fun stuff you do, and have all your women simply be friends?Many guys do post pics of them with women and that's fine. I don't, and never will until I get a long-term OLTR again. I post fun stuff I do, and women comment on it. My friends list (when it was public) is also filled with attractive women.
Oh and Blackdragon, it looks like they’re trying to challenge you to pull some hot pussy while you’re in Australia, show em their excuses are just excusesI don't do night game and I'm way out of practice on concentrated daygame, so I will fully admit that if I'm in a city for only 3 days I don't have the ability to fuck someone brand new, cold, unless I get lucky or unless or I use my money (which would be cheating). But, if we want to dick-measure, I will say this. If was in one city for a three weeks or a month (which I will start doing next year, twice a year) and have that amount of time, yes, I could fuck at least one hot chick, under age 23, within 3 fast dates or less, without spending more than $40 American, without using any of my "fame" or social proof. By the way, I would not use Tinder to do this. I'm not good-looking enough and I'm too old. But the actual dating sites, no problem (if I had 3-4 weeks to work with). I could do this in any city in the Western world (and Asia too), certainly including Melbourne and Sydney. The only exceptions would be the hardcore feminist countries in Scandinavia and northern Europe (Denmark, et. al.) where I would probably fail, but other than that, no problem. And I'm chubby and over 40. Granted I'm an Alpha, but you know what I've said about that.
Duke 2015-08-15 13:54:23
Damn, after reading this thread I'm curious about visiting the land down under. I'm Hispanic, good looking and six foot with decent game, I wonder how I would do over there. Lol at guys having harems with ten to twenty women. I want some of that action! @BD, So you don't think you could pull in Scandinavia? Because online wouldn't work I'm guessing. I remember Roosh saying a few years all you had to do in Denmark was be beta and agree with everything the girls says and you could get laid. He messed up because he would always piss them off by arguing with them. I heard Iceland is full of drunk girls that are DTF. And the rest of the countries, Finland, Sweden, and Norway are just really expensive.
Amanda 2015-08-15 16:06:18
Good article BD. I was also thinking about how you advocate two-way open relationships, and how this could make all the difference. If a guy I was seeing were to tell me he was having sex with other women but expected monogamy from me, I would walk. I've read other manosphere blogs where guys say they do exactly this ... one guy in particular claims to have women in multiple countries and expects 100% monogamy from all of them, while he is traipsing the globe hunting for new women to add to his harem. That screams insecurity to me, and I don't know why any woman would agree to this. However, if a guy I was dating were to suggest a two-way open relationship, I'd be OK with it at this point. In the past it would have given me pause because like you said, we women are told over and over again that our men should only have eyes for us, and if they don't, that means they have no respect for us and we should dump them ASAP. The only thing I struggle with is the expectation most people have of monogamy. The default is assumed to be monogamy, unless otherwise specified. I've actually never promised monogamy to my boyfriend, but couldn't bring myself to propose anything else because he has promised it to me multiple times (not at my request; he says it on his own). The weird thing is that I'm still highly attracted to him, but after more than 3 years, I'm also finding myself attracted to other men (though I've never acted on it). I've never experienced this before, probably because I've never been in a relationship this long. @Wolf of George Street - It sounds like a lot of women in your area have the same type. Where I live (Northern California), there's more diversity among who people are attracted to, and I see lots of different types of men with attractive women. My type is mostly Mexican men 5'6-5'9", and I am hardly ever attracted to tall, muscular white men ... go figure.
Kryptokate 2015-08-15 20:32:55
Damn, based on what I'm reading here about Australian men and the hordes of tall, good looking, ripped players there, it sounds like I better book myself a vacation to Sydney, stat! 😉
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-15 21:34:59
If was in one city for a three weeks or a month (which I will start doing next year, twice a year) and have that amount of time, yes, I could fuckat least one hot chick, under age 23, within 3 fast dates or less, without spending more than $40 American, without using any of my “fame” or social proof. By the way,I would not use Tinder to do this. I’m not good-looking enough and I’m too old. But the actual datingsites, no problem (if I had 3-4 weeks to work with). I could do this in any city in the Western world (and Asia too), certainly including Melbourne and Sydney. The only exceptions would be the hardcore feminist countries in Scandinavia and northern Europe (Denmark, et. al.) where I would probably failIt's comparable to Scandinavia and northern Europe here now. Those NE countries are insanely tough markets, unless you are young, tall, very good looking and white. It could quite possibly be the only market in the western world worse than here and NZ, I'll grant you that. lol @ $40 American. 1 cocktail will set you back $20 in Sydney. Granted the AUD is quite low ATM, so that's possible but at one point it was buying USD$1.10 and cocktails were still $20 a pop. A beer $10, and remember we get paid in AUD not USD... Another reason I will be expanding my company to the US. As for the dating sites here and getting 18-23yo women (with the exclusion of seekingarrangement, which is cheating). The largest one charges $5 PER MESSAGE (actually I think it's more now). And specifically does not allow people in open relationships or marriages as per their terms of service (I also inquired), so my only option is to lie, can't run an upfront open relationship or open marriage bio if I wanted to (like I can in NYC or London and get plenty of offers), just gets you banned. You have the free ones... Good luck. I can pull it off, sure, but I'm 30, good looking, rich and crush Tinder in the US, absolutely crush it, 22k matches, ordering women for sex like they're pizza's etc. Here, on the dating sites or on tinder or in clubs/bars or whatever, I may as well be below average (I am 5'9 and half dark euro/half Aussie, so certainly not the Aussie woman ideal). So I have to really work for it, I have success, but it's a fraction of elsewhere, so I know what it's like for guys that don't have the same advantages as me.
@Wolf of George Street – It sounds like a lot of women in your area have the same type. Where I live (Northern California), there’s more diversity among who people are attracted to, and I see lots of different types of men with attractive women. My type is mostly Mexican men 5’6-5’9″, and I am hardly ever attracted to tall, muscular white men … go figure.Correct, and that is why I will be moving to NYC. The most diverse city in the world. It's a breath of fresh air to have attractive women actively pursue me and tell me how attractive I am etc. It's truly amazing how much better it feels and how much it adds to your happiness when you live in a society where the women are not hostile towards you.
Damn, based on what I’m reading here about Australian men and the hordes of tall, good looking, ripped players there, it sounds like I better book myself a vacation to Sydney, stat!😉 We actually give that advice to our female friends overseas who are unhappy with their local market. Australia is Eastern Europe in reverse, heaven if you are female. You'll wonder what all the local women are complaining about when they say they can't find a good guy, you truly will. Come to Sydney in the summer, jump on tinder and hit the upscale bars, you will not be disappointed. My wife dislikes the women here as much as I do. Superficial, crazy, stuck up etc. she doesn't have many female friends who aren't 40+ married with kids. She simply can't get on with the average younger woman here. She's itching to move as I am. Anyway, again. I believe the situation here is the result of a number of factors, demographic and cultural, but I still feel as if an out of control non-monogamous hook-up culture is a big contributor, or at the very least exasperates the problem.
John 2015-08-15 21:50:16
^^^^ Hey Wolf, Have you ever lived in Thailand? If so, what's it like for Aussies over there? I've been considering moving there as it is dirt cheap to live there compared to here. Apparently you could live like a king on only $1000 AUD a month. I know there's tons of hookers, but not interested in that, but what the SMP is like with locals, tourists etc if you wanted to game.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-15 23:53:18
John, alot of Aussie guys take the SE Asian route. I have a friend who is in Thailand right now. My recommendation though is Makati, Philippines (and his would be too). I get 2000 tinder matches a night there (not even exaggerating), and you can just invite many of them straight over (beware of trannies though). My friend was there recently 12 hot, young, women in a couple of weeks. But really it could have been unlimited, he just got sick of sex. Girls he'd already slept with were offering up their friends. Here he completely bombed. Basically, Philippines is for us, what Australia is for the 6'2+, super good looking, ripped, white guys, who get that exact same shamelessly aggressive sexual treatment here from our women, including the offering up their friends bit. If I were single my destinations of choice would be Philippines for unlimited, easy, free sex. The Baltics (due to my EU citizenship) for longer term relationships with young stunningly beautiful Eastern Euro women, or NYC for (relatively compared to here) cheap hook-ups with attractive young sexually open Caucasian women.
John 2015-08-16 00:05:21
Thanks Wolf, 2000 matches a night?? Jesus H Christ. I may have to do some research on Makati with regards to cost of living etc. I only need to rely on the internet for my income as I currency trade for a living so my choices where to live is wide open, I just can't wait to get out of here, but it's going to be tough as my family and friends are all here pretty much. If you're in Melbourne hit me up. Cheers
Robbie 2015-08-16 03:41:25
I don't know if Sydney is similar but my biggest issue with Melbourne is the high percentage of fat ugly young women here.. Guys here take care of their looks and their physiques like nobodies business but it seems like women missed the memo, so yeah the competition for the hot women is very high. If the average woman here started taking care of her appearance more, it'd be a different story. A guy here can pull tons of 5-7's here easy, but I admit its the 8-10s that are difficult due to scarcity.
Five Six 2015-08-16 05:53:15
@Amanda BD does discuss this and has emphasized freedom for women to see other men too. Personally, I don't mind whatever my paramours do as long as they're safe about it. I've explicitly told women to go ahead and see other guys (while knowing I'm going to philander) and they are really suprised to hear that... and I was surprised to see them surprised. That being said, I find it interesting that most women don't even go see other men. And if they do, it's a beta male they don't get excited for, and proceed to tell me "it's 'nice'"...lol Players who expect their women to be monogamous are needy alphas. Refer to BD's latest graphic: http://i.imgur.com/SaG9iFs.jpg
Al 2015-08-16 06:41:55
@ Five Six
That being said, I find it interesting that most women don’t even go see other men. And if they do, it’s a beta male they don’t get excited for, and proceed to tell me “it’s ‘nice'”…lolI have found this as well. I wonder if in part it has to do with forbidden fruit. When the fruit isn't forbidden, it becomes much less tasty. And while I'm here, ladies and gents, if the men want to be non monogamous, they should freely allow their women to be the same. No question about it.
Blackdragon 2015-08-16 13:49:33
So you don’t think you could pull in Scandinavia?Yes I could, but not under the parameters I laid out above.
I remember Roosh saying a few years all you had to do in Denmark was be beta and agree with everything the girls says and you could get laid.That's great, but I don't lie to women.
He messed up because he would always piss them off by arguing with them.And I don't do drama either. Apparently Roosh and I are very different.
I heard Iceland is full of drunk girls that are DTF.I've heard this too. I don't include Iceland when I say "northern Europe".
one guy in particular claims to have women in multiple countries and expects 100% monogamy from all of them, while he is traipsing the globe hunting for new women to add to his harem.I've heard stories like this too. These men are fantasizing. Those women, at least some of them, are getting some cock on the side when he's not around.
It’s comparable to Scandinavia and northern Europe here now.False. You were doing great and now you're over-stating again. Australian women are extremely sex-positive in ways the angry, feministy women of Scandinavian aren't even close. They're almost two opposite extremes.
lol @ $40 American.Okay, to avoid conversations about international currency fluctuations, I'll modify what I said to $40 AUD. Hell, I'll even go to $50 AUD. But I don't want to keep debating Australia. If you seriously think the only feasible way for a non-uber-Alpha to get laid in Australia is to pay for it, then you're welcome to that belief. Have at it.
And while I’m here, ladies and gents, if the men want to be non monogamous, they should freely allow their women to be the same. No question about it.Correct, yet I don't look at this as a fairness issue, I look at it as a logistical issue. You fucking all these chicks while she knows it and isn't allowed to fuck other guys...that type of relationship WILL NOT WORK LONG-TERM. I'm sorry, but it won't. Short-term, sure. Long-term, no. Under such a system she'll will eventually either cheat or bail, guaranteed. (Again, I'm talking about the Western world with Western women; if you want to move to the third world and stay there forever then you might make that work.)
Minister 2015-08-16 15:27:17
BlackDragon, I have a practical question for you. When you fuck a woman, there is always a downtime of 20 minutes between the two rounds of sex. How do you spend these 20 minutes with zero or near-zero communication, when the woman is a FB? As we know, you are not supposed to talk much or open up to a FB.
Blackdragon 2015-08-16 15:34:56
As we know, you are not supposed to talk much or open up to a FB.Incorrect. You can talk to an FB all you like. I certainly do. You're not supposed to go out on dates with an FB, or cuddle with an FB, or let her spend the night, etc. But talking is fine. Talk all you like.
Minister 2015-08-16 16:48:17
Ok, but in this way won't she expect phone and text contact, as well, generating drama?
hislyonesse 2015-08-16 19:03:27
"Granted, in just the last few years, women have really come around on this, and the trend is a good one, but we’re still not at the point where you can meet a random cutie on OKCupid and tell her on the first date that you’re going to be nonmonogamous. (Don’t worry, that day is coming, but not quite yet.)" I don't know where else to pose this question, so I am taking a shot in dark here--how can women in non-monogamous relationships meet other women in same? Its such an underground thing right now and very frustrating. As much as I accept his other women, there can still be challenging days when it would be nice to have a support group of women friends to encourage each other. I would like to build a community for women to come out of the closet and encourage more women to get on board with non-monogamy. I want to help that day come. Right now if I tell your average woman my relationship set-up most think I have low self-esteem for "letting him get away with that" .
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-16 19:26:19
I don’t know if Sydney is similar but my biggest issue with Melbourne is the high percentage of fat ugly young women here.. Guys here take care of their looks and their physiques like nobodies business but it seems like women missed the memo, so yeah the competition for the hot women is very high. If the average woman here started taking care of her appearance more, it’d be a different story. A guy here can pull tons of 5-7’s here easy, but I admit its the 8-10s that are difficult due to scarcity.Bingo. Exact same deal in Sydney. That's the endgame to this little non-monogamy, 'sex-positive' women experiment. Everything the manosphere guys predict about it is dead on. The women get FATTER, LAZIER and more and more ENTITLED because even the fat ones can become part of some fit guys harem, they no longer really have to compete for top quality men who become desperate and thirsty. Meanwhile the guys have to work harder and harder (and become more and more ripped, hence the high rate of steroid use here) to compete for the dwindling numbers of attractive women. Just compare the online dating/tinder profiles of the men in Sydney compared to men in any US city. The difference is night and day. The quality is just so much higher here, and that's because guys have to give it their all here to compete against one another for the attractive women. BD's 'get better pics' advice only works when not every second other guy has pro pics, extreme sports pics, travelling pics, suited up pics all taken with high quality DSLR's or by pro photographers. Like I said, Australia is Eastern Europe in reverse, partially because EE has a more serial monogamous dating culture, whereas we have the non-monogamous, highly competitive, free for all that creates lazy, self entitled women and extremely competitive men.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-08-16 19:47:45
Australian women are extremely sex-positive in ways the angry, feministy women of Scandinavian aren’t even close. They’re almost two opposite extremes.No BD. You are wrong. Scandinavian women are EXTREMELY sex positive, very, very open sexually. IF you are in the top few percent of men (tall, very good looking, wealthy etc.). Then you will think they are the most beautiful, feminine, sexually open creatures on Earth. Otherwise it'll be like you have stepped into hell. All you have to do is run 2 tinder accounts in Scandinavia. One with a a super good looking, tall, white guy, and one with an average height, decent looking guy, and watch the difference in the attitudes from the women, even the exact same women (mutual matches), using similar lines. They will THROW THEMSELVES at the super good looking guy, offering them sex instantly, over tinder. Again, it's like a Filipino guy complaining about his women, then some Caucasian guy saying Filipina women are super friendly and sexually open. When will you understand that women are the same EVERYWHERE, the only difference is how skewed the percentages are upward from place to place. Women will be extremely friendly and sexually open to a top percentile of men (it just depends whether you make the cut), and spiteful, bitches to the rest. That 'top percentile' of men varies from city to city and from culture to culture. All you have to do to make it in the Philippines is to be a decent looking Caucasian. In most US cities you just need to be fit, attractive, and successful (there's still alot more monogamy in the US, and the competition from other men is relatively low). In Australia and Scandinavia you need to be tall, very good looking, wealthy and/or famous etc. to make that percentile. (these are the countries that are already lost to unchecked hypergamy, soon, more will follow).
Five Six 2015-08-16 21:29:18
@hislyonesse You can find a number of poly groups on fetlife, and there are some on meetup.com too if you're looking for support groups in person.
Blackdragon 2015-08-16 21:39:01
Ok, but in this way won’t she expect phone and text contact, as well, generating drama?By talking to her like a human being? No.
how can women in non-monogamous relationships meet other women in same?I don't have a complete answer for that...yet...but if you wait a few weeks I have something coming up that will help you.
I would like to build a community for women to come out of the closet and encourage more women to get on board with non-monogamy.Just wait. Something is coming soon. I can't talk about it yet.
That’s the endgame to this little non-monogamy, ‘sex-positive’ women experiment. Everything the manosphere guys predict about it is dead on. The women get FATTER, LAZIER and more and more ENTITLEDWomen are getting fatter, lazier, and more entitled in every nation in the Western world, as I've been discussing on this blog for many years now. His description of Melbourne is the same description of any major city in the US (besides unusual places like Miami). They're getting fatter all over the Western world. Come over to Seattle or Portland sometime and take a look at the hordes of fatties we have over here. This fatter thing is not because of nonmonogamy. It's because of left-wing bullshit and feminism, like food stamps, oppressive divorce laws, etc. Big government and alimony laws will take care of women, so they don't need to look good for men any more like they used to. Nonmonogamy has nothing (or little) to do with it.
You are wrong. Scandinavian women are EXTREMELY sex positive, very, very open sexually.'I've communicated with hundreds of men and women all over the world about these issues, including people in Scandinavia and Australia. You are literally the first person I've ever heard say this about Scandinavia. All I hear about from men in Scandinavia is how bitchy women are there and the massive amount of ASD they have. It's the complete opposite from stories I get from Australia. Night and day.
All you have to do is run 2 tinder accounts in Scandinavia. One with a a super good looking, tall, white guy, and one with an average height, decent looking guy, and watch the difference in the attitudes from the women, even the exact same women (mutual matches), using similar lines. They will THROW THEMSELVES at the super good looking guy, offering them sex instantly, over tinder.Meaningless as it is obvious. The exact thing that will happen in the US. You have a blazing case of "grass is greener," my friend. (Though I do completely agree with you about the Philippines; that's the easiest place on planet Earth for a white guy to get laid. The only problem is Filipino women are really unattractive, at least in my opinion.)
POB 2015-08-17 14:05:37
By the way, I would not use Tinder to do this. I’m not good-looking enough and I’m too old. But the actual dating sites, no problem (if I had 3-4 weeks to work with).I'm 35, tall, good looking, fit as hell and have decent game but still I can only pull a <25 HB8 after about 200-300 matches minimum. Tinder is THE attention whores central these days. If you're a guy who's <8, over 37 and NOT FIT, don't waste your time there. I'll even go further and say you'll have better chances at that atrocious thing called POF.
I get 2000 tinder matches a night there (not even exaggerating), and you can just invite many of them straight over (beware of trannies though).Sounds like a classical case of supply and demand. Even so it's really impressive!!!
There three most important things are: 1) Saying No. 2) Minimum contact. 3) Outcome independence.
And while I’m here, ladies and gents, if the men want to be non monogamous, they should freely allow their women to be the same. No question about it.Amen brother!
johnny017 2015-09-15 11:16:56
My bad, the email came in this morning and I just responded quickly, not putting much thought into it. If she decides to email me again , i will wait on your response. I've cut off all contact , I haven't had a verbal conversation with her on the phone in over 2 months and I haven't reached out to her. I'm doing all the steps that you advise: Just ignore her. Don’t text her. Don’t call her. Don’t email her. Don’t Facebook her. Don’t “like” or comment on anything she posts on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or anything else. Completely vanish out of her life, like you were never there. Like i said before, she is in a NRB now so I'll just be non existent. That's what you advise, right? Thanks for the help
GCM 2015-10-02 06:16:19
@Tony "This is something I’m in the middle of dealing with. On the third date last weekend I had sex for the first time with this girl, and she started talking as if we were engaged, and she wouldn’t stop asking about how I viewed the relationship. So even though I wanted to dodge the question as long as possible, I decided to spike it right there. I not only told her that I wasn’t monogamous, but that I had a vasectomy and therefore wouldn’t be able to give her the children she desperately wanted even if I was interested." I know your post is a little while ago, and am still new here, but I had thought this might help others. I was watching the show "Hello Ladies" and an episode with similar situation came up. I was amaze at how the guy handled it his FB! He called her... Him: Hey. Her: Hey. Him: Do you wanna hang? I can be there in five minutes. Her: Yeah, sure. Well, I'm babysitting, so Cassidy will be here. Him: Oh, cool. Yeah, I'm just wrapping up some stuff. Probably be wrapping up around the time you're done babysitting. When will that be, do you think? Her: Um, just, like, a couple hours or so? Him: Oh, just text me when you're done. Bye. - He came over after the parents came for the baby and started to make out and she tried to stopped him from advancing... Her: Oh. Him: What's up? Her: Do you ever wonder what this is? Him: This is two people having fun. Her: Yeah, but you know, I was talking to my friend, and she was like, "Is he your boyfriend?" and I was like, "I don't know." Him: Mm-hmm. Her: Are we just fuck buddies? 'Cause honestly, I don't I don't know if I want that. Him: First of all, thank you for bringing this up. I hear everything you're saying and I understand, but I think it's dangerous to try to define it. We have to let this go where it wants to go, you know what I mean? Her: Kind of. I mean, I don't want to be your girlfriend today or anything like that. I just I'm wondering if it's something that you might want down the road. Him: I hope it could be. But you or I might be in a different space in six months and not want whatever this is now then, do you know what I mean? Her: I think so. Him: But if you're not happy with what this is now or what this could be then, I totally get it and I'll just go. Her: Oh, no, no, no. No, no, no. Stay. You should stay. I just thought that we should have the conversation. Him: And I agree, the conversation shouldn't end. It should be ongoing. They end up having sex again! I was impressed, I rewind so many times to see how well he handled that. Just thought I would share...
Joe K 2016-09-26 06:07:56
" The only exceptions would be the hardcore feminist countries in Scandinavia and northern Europe (Denmark, et. al.) where I would probably fail, but other than that, no problem." I have heard that Scandinavian women are easy as hell to bang, but in the context of bars/clubs and just essentially pairing off with one at the end of the night (the girls, entirely unemotional, basically just looking around and saying 'ok, you'll do for tonight' and leaving the venue to go bang). If you're employing a mix of online and actual dates (even quick, cheap ones) - I can see how that's outside the purview of what I've heard. From first-hand experience several years ago - I had heard that Spain was a great, easy place to meet legitimately sexy women and hook up quickly since it was so 'sex-positive'. I found that not to be the case. My 'success' there was relegated sloppy British tourist chicks with poor impulse control. But I'll get to my fuckin' point now - Australia and Scandinavia and Spain and NYC and even the Philippines (and yes, I'm a 6'+ muscular white guy) all sound like fun places to visit, horrible places to inhabit...horrible places 'energetically' I mean - humans fully unleashed to do their worst with minimal consequences for doing their worst. Even if you're psyched that you can 'order women for sex like pizzas' in NYC - I mean if you're even moderately rich, so what? The only qualitative difference between that and paying a $250 escort is the little spike of validation knowing that the chick likes your look. I mean, whatever - right? Those of us white dudes who live location-independent would all be in Cuzco or Quezon City right now if that was enough to make life great or mean anything significant.
tom 2016-11-08 01:29:41
I've looked and looked, I can't find the post that is most relevant to this issue. Possibly, it's actually only talked about in your books, I am not sure. Try to be brief. Question first: The situation seems like it clashes with my concept of how things "should" go if I've done everything correctly. So I am wondering, is this something that happens to you sometimes? Or does it indicate a flaw in my open relationship creation skills? If so, where should I look to fix it in the future? I've been hooking up with a girl weekly for about five months, without "the talk". There has been almost zero pressure in that direction. Only once did she make a "can I be your girlfriend/can you be monogamous" question and I handled it exactly as you suggest, with lighthearted subcommunication followed by a subject change. Now out of the blue, she is nexting me. No shocker, if she met someone, but it is not a LSNFTE, it is simply a next. She has no incentive to lie. Hell, if anything, if she wanted to spare my feelings, she would tell me that there IS another guy. That I could understand. Her statement was that being friend would be "Easier" than "friends with benefits". I assume she is referring to emotionally easier, on her. Anyway, it's the pre-talk next, in absence of a new guy, that is what seems off about this to me.
Blackdragon 2016-11-08 10:23:47
I’ve been hooking up with a girl weekly for about five months, without “the talk”.https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl/
tom 2016-11-13 18:18:03
Except that this question isn't coming from any of the places that are the reasons you don't answer one girl questions. e.g. "It puts the frame and focus on this one girl instead of you, your skill set, and your objectives." So basically the fact that I provided context gets me a snub, whereas if I had stated the question you would have answered it? Explain to me how one is supposed to analyze one's skill set and achieve objectives, while completely ignoring the application of those skills and their results, which are always individual, no matter how many girls you are working? “How do I get better at getting girls?” The second question is a great question. And that is exactly the question being asked here. Is this kind of outcome normal? If it isn't, what is a likely cause? There is not even a HINT of "how can I get this girl?" anywhere in the question.
jack 2016-11-13 18:54:55
Maybe you could have written it like this: Hey BD! How common is it that your FB's next you, instead of LSNFTE'ing you? I would guess this would be very unusual, because the only thing you don't offer is monogamy, so the only reason she should next you (all things being equal and doing everything correctly) is if a guy comes along and offers monogamy. If this is happening to me often, what would be your best guesses about what might be going wrong? I can understand if you don't have a huge number of outcomes from "one girls" to refer to like BD does, you haven't got the big data sets to analyze, it's difficult to find places and reasons why to adjust your results without looking at what happened with one girl. My guess is maybe your EFA was actually too strong. BD talks about turning the water from warm to cold. If the girl was so sure you are sleeping with other women that she didn't pass through the process of occasionally asking, until finally demanding, and getting "the talk", then maybe she didn't felt comfortable enough to really bond to you as is necessary for the talk to work. The talk solidifies the relationship, which is what she is asking for all along, just not in the way she is programmed to hope that it will be soldified.
Niteride Mick 2017-01-19 14:23:52
Hey BD just doing the maths on guys with 20 girls in there black book 30 days in a month,leaving 10 free days to do what you have to do to live ie shopping meeting clients catching up with family friends etc Wouldn't you be all shag out by day 7 Plus how do you arrange all your meets !!! Ps maybe the sex is wham bam thank you mam !!!!
Blackdragon 2017-01-19 16:41:40
Hey BD just doing the maths on guys with 20 girlsThat was just Wolf being his usual alarmist self.
Niteride Mick 2017-02-07 19:49:45
Just re read some of the comments regarding social media Tinder,snap chat facebook etc Don't you think its full of tyre kickers not to mention fake profiles Were relying to much on social media Look outside the box Go and join a class ie rock and roll dancing Yoga chicks love doing yoga Gym tennis golf learn a second language in a class Book clubs etc There is heaps to do out there go out and meet people learn the art of conversation!!! Cheers
Nicolas 2017-10-18 08:02:16
I'm currently making a strange experiment. Well, it's strange for me, as I'm testing your stuff (going for young hotties on dating sites while being in my late 30s). But I made a move in the complete opposite of this post. On my dating profile, I made a little bit of blabla (nothing interesting, but I write well, so it's ok to have it), but the core of it, the main paragraph states (roughly translated to english): "First of all, I'm polyamourous. I have 2 women in my life, and I have feelings for them. So suck it monogamy!" (very approximate translation) My response rate crumbled to 5% (0% amongst women my age). But two gals contacted me, and showed interest in polyamory as soon as they opened their online mouth (in France, it's not as big as it is in the US). One told me she considers MLTR to be some ideal relationship. The other one just crave for air in monogamous relationships (in my opinion, she should really consider polyamory as a lifestyle). So, stating I'm polyamourous right away: - Allows me to focus more on the type of girls I want to meet. In my opinion they have lower ASD, are less bossy, and I think the drama is also lowered (at least, I know I won't have jealousy drama). - Makes my profile clearly unique. They contact me because they want to know about polyamory. I'm suddenly not a random profile on the website, I may be the only one stating my polyamourous lifestyle (appart from OkCupid, I don't think many dating sites allow you to show your nonmonogamous lifestyle, and OkCupid is not much important in France). - Shows great OI in my opinion. Always a good thing. - Removes creepiness: I'm not starving for sex, I clearly show I have feelings. Both gals told me in the first messages that they are open to first date sex... more than I was expecting (I'll also try your 2-dates model, even if I may be surprised by their model). Tell me what you think of it.
AlphaOmega 2017-10-18 14:57:15
Tell me what you think of it.Depends on what your goal is. Bringing many women to your life quickly vs being patient and just focusing on the girls that are already converted.
Don_Quibollox 2017-10-18 20:31:21
@Nicolas: I tried your up-front approach for a while, and my OKC response rates plummeted. But I live in a much more conservative country than France. I now use BD's 'boil the frog (oops, no offence intended, BTW) slowly', and it's working much better for me. Many women here seem to accept that guys want to spread the seed, but they don't want it thrown in their faces (ahem).
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