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How Young Can Women Be For A Serious Relationship?
-By Caleb Jones
Realistically, what age would you say is the youngest (beautiful) woman I can expect to have a long-term relationship (or even marriage) with?
Good question! First, let’s review the three basics regarding much younger women in relationships:
1. They must be legal wherever you are. If you don’t know the age of consent in your city, find out before you start dating much younger women. Europe, Asia, and South America are pretty relaxed about this. But if you live in the US, American women (and many American men) will react with psychotic, volcanic horror if she’s even one year under the age of consent, and will gleefully throw your ass in jail and brand you a sex offender even if they know it was 100% consensual and you did nothing wrong.
You can weep at the latest insane case right here. A teenage boy had 100% consensual sex with a teenage girl who lied about her age. Police arrested him and charged him with statutory “rape.” The girl and her mother testified in court that indeed the girl did lie about her age, and that they didn’t think the teenage boy had done anything wrong nor should be punished, and that everything was fine.
But because America has gone insane, he got a 90 day prison sentence, 5 years of probation, a permanent criminal record, and is now a registered sex offender for the next 25 years. At age 19, his life is destroyed. And he did nothing wrong.
Bottom line, Americans are uniquely weird about teenage girls having sex with even slightly older men. If you live in the US, know your local laws and check ID before you touch. (Sadly, Canada is also getting bad about this, so you Canadians better watch out too.)
2. Dating a much younger woman in a monogamous relationship is staggeringly stupid, even when younger guys do it. Never expect a woman under the age of 23 to be monogamous, regardless of what she promises. She’ll cheat on your ass and do it with a smile on her face, or she’ll dump your ass like a hot potato the instant she starts to like someone else and for no other reason. Only date younger women in NONmonogamous relationships (unless you like drama).
3. Dating VYW (women between age of consent and about 23) as FBs and MLTRs is fine, provided you remember that she’s a teenager or damn near it (more on this in a minute), so set your expectations accordingly regarding her behavior. I’ve done it many times and never had a problem. Just remember that “set your expectations” part. Too many men date these near-teenagers and then are shocked and furious when they see these women exhibit near-teenage behavior. Well, duh. With under-23 women, just like with over-33 women, set your expectations accordingly, or stay away.
Now what about having a much younger woman in a truly serious relationship? Like a high-end MLTR, OLTR, or OLTR marriage? This is where things get a little more complicated.
Where exactly is the cut-off age for women who are acceptable for a long-term, serious, in-love relationship?
I don’t think there’s definitive, objective answer. I don’t think anyone can point at a specific age and say “Any woman over age X will be okay, any of them under that age is a bad idea.” Regardless of what age you choose, it’s going to be arbitrary.
Regardless, I can give you my answer. This an admittedly subjective answer, though it's from a guy with a massive amount of dating and relationship experience who has dated (in long relationships) women of all ages, from 18 to 50+. Feel free to take it or leave it.
I’ve had to give this a lot of thought, because twice in my life I found myself in “serious” relationships (nonmonogamous ones of course) with women you were much younger. Here’s what I came up with.
Long-Term Expectations, or Not?
The issue is not the relationship being “serious.” Rather, the issue is how long your expectations are of a future relationship with this woman. I don’t think the determining factor is how “serious” things are. I think it’s whether or not you have long-term expectations of the relationship lasting.
Here’s a perfect example. Years go I bashed celebrity Doug Hutchison for getting legally and monogamously married to a 16 year-old. Unlike everyone else who was horrified (crazy Americans again, sigh), I had no problem whatsoever with the age difference. If she’s legal and cute and it’s consensual, go for it! I had a problem because it’s utterly insane to expect a relationship to last a long time with a god damn 16 year-old girl.
They were legally separated in less than two years (of course!). A teenage girl is not someone who’s going to stick around. Period.
So do I think it’s a good idea to get into a serious relationship with long-term expectations with a woman under the age of 20? Nope. You’re a complete dumbass if you do that (and many men do, including younger men).
Then what about age 20? Or 21?
As a man who has dated a hell of a lot of younger women in his day, I can tell you this for a fact:
Women act like teenagers until around age 23.
I have observed absolutely no difference in behavior or thought processes between 22 year-old girls and 18 year-old girls. None. One can legally drink and the other can’t, but that’s literally the only difference. They’re both just as immature, reckless, carefree, happy, fickle, chaotic, and irrational. They both drink and/or do drugs just as much and just as often. Even if they have kids. No difference.
Yes, there are always those rare girls who are unusually mature at these ages, but those are the unusual exceptions to the rule. If you’re dealing with a woman age 20-22, she’s still a teenager. I don’t care if the first digit of her age is a “2” instead of a “1,” she’s still a teenager.
Think about this: How many 20 year-old women do you know who live on their own, in their own house or apartment, don’t live with family or friends, and pay 100% of their own bills without any help from government, family, exes, or child support, and maintain the same full-time job for more than 12 months?
I’ve never seen a 20 year-old girl do that. Ever. I’ve never seen a 21 year-old girl do that either. Or a 22 year-old girl. But 23? Yeah, I’ve seen a small number of 23-year-old women pull that off. Not many, but some.
There are many other reasons why I see 23 as a clear cut-off to beyond-teenage maturity for women, but I don’t have time here to go into all of it. You get the point.
So it’s not a good idea to get into a serious relationship with long-term expectations with a woman under the age of 23. She’s a teenager.
What about age 23 then?
I still wouldn’t get into a serious relationship with long-term expectations with a 23 year-old (unless she was an amazing exception to the rule). 23 is when women start to get their shit together. That doesn’t mean I can trust her to stick around consistently for five or ten years just because she’s no longer a teenager. However, I do admit that once a woman is 23, we’ve entered into a grey area.
How about age 24?
Still a grey area, but I’d be much more confident about 24 than I would 23.
How about 25?
So there you go. It takes all the way until age 25 for me to give a solid “yes” to the question of eligibility for a serious relationship with long-term expectations. Provided she’s passed all the other requirements for an OTLR (you’ve been dating her for at least six months, preferably a year, and you’ve had zero or near zero drama or jealousy, and she’s survived The Talk), then I think an older guy getting into serious, long-term relationship with a 25 year-old is perfectly fine. Go for it.
Minimum vs. Ideal
Now you might ask, “So if 25 is the minimum ‘definite’ age for something long-term and serious, what would be the ideal age for this? Certainly the ideal age would have to be older than 25, right?”
Correct. If you were actually out screening (and you know how I hate that word) for the ideal, long-term OLTR woman, you would be looking for a woman over the age 25, not going for a bunch of 25 year-olds.
The problem is that dreaded Age of Doom, age 33, where a woman’s ASD spikes into the stratosphere. A relationship may work fine with those over-33 woman, but getting to sex with her the first time to start that relationship is likely going to involve a lot more work, time, financial expense, and compromise than many of you are willing to put up with. Unless she’s another exception to the rule, getting into that wonderful relationship isn’t going to be feasible because of her own false Societal Programming and mental barriers regarding sex.
Therefore, unless you don’t mind waiting 8-15 hours of face time and spending $150-$250 just to maybe get to first-time sex with that over-33 woman, then you’re looking at an ideal serious-relationship age range of 25-32.
That’s as close as I can get to giving you a solid number. For most high sex drive Alphas, it’s somewhere between 25 and 32. I’ve always had the number 27 rolling around in my head as “ideal” for a long-term serious relationship, but that’s completely arbitrary. A 25 year-old would also be fine, perhaps even a 24 year-old. Going the other direction, a sexually liberated, low-ASD, over-33 woman, what few there are, would be perfectly fine with me as well, but then we’ve definitely left the “young” zone and are thus straying away from our original question (though if you’re over age 55 or 60, a woman in her 30s would certainly be considered “younger”).
So there you have it. My take is admittedly subjective, but I am coming at this from a place of vast experience. Your best bet is to take the above as a template and slightly modify/tweak it based on your own age, life situation, and preferences. You won’t go wrong doing that.
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Matija 2015-08-17 06:32:46
Dude BD, i must say u are point on, but i hate you for not making this post 1-2 year ago so i had to learn that from my own experience, well i went full retard going into a monogamus relationship in the first place, especially in my age (23). well atleast now i know i wont get monogamus ever. From your experiance do women after like 25 become at least a bit more rational without the girl logic ?
John Smith 2015-08-17 07:52:36
Americans are uniquely weird about teenage girls having sex with even slightly older men.Yeah...where I live the age of consent is 16 unless the older person is in a position of authority (e.g. teacher), and then it's 18. I can't even mention that without being looked at like a pervert, so I just keep it to myself and bite my tongue whenever I hear someone incorrectly assert that it's 18 across the board.
Diggy 2015-08-17 07:53:05
Wow, I also said women don't finish maturing until 27 on average. Spot on BD. My current GF was 21 when we met. She's far from a teenager mentally. She doesn't drink or do drugs. Doesn't talk like a teenager. Doesn't think like a teenager. So things are perfect right? NOT. Just like BD said she can't take care of herself. I put 75% of the effort in the relationship. 75% of the household work. Not to mention the thousands of dollars I've spent more than her. So our relationship is ending...mostly because she can't care for herself or her life. I've let her keep the place, most of the belongings in it... she has a life set up for her from me. And yet, two weeks out from my departure she has yet to put the littlest effort into making sure she can handle this. She's 24 currently. I'm not totally convinced its age related but I'm sure in a few years of living on her own she'll be better at life. What a narrow window.... 25-32. And I hate that I agree with you!
TarzanWannaBe 2015-08-17 08:14:43
Good info. Along a similar line -- I'm suspect there's wisdom in the 1/2 (of his age) + 7 = (start here for her age) recommendation. Whaddayouthgink, BD?
maldek 2015-08-17 10:18:00
@Diggy 1. Buy BD's book. It will help you. "no" - I am not getting paid for recommending it. It is a lot of help for someone like you, who is just waking up to the red pill truth. 2. Major mistakes I can clearly see from your posting. You are not the only one who does these things so I will talk about them a little. a) "Just like BD said she can’t take care of herself." This is general women problem; the more feminine a woman is the more this is true. Solution: You tell her what to do. Do **NOT** do it for her, give her clear commands what to do. These are 2 very different things. We are talking about a traditional marriage/GF relationship here - if you do the advanced stuff from BD, you can just ignore it and replace her. But IF you do want to live in one house with a woman you HAVE to be the boss. You tell her what to do, there more the better. Including what she is allowed to eat. If you allow your woman to get fat, it is a sign you are a bad leader. Think about this for a while. Do this long and hard. It is a major point. b) "75% of the household work." Bye bye sex life. There is NOTHING that turns a woman off more than a man doing womens work. No, NO NOOOOOO. If you do 5% of the household work, that would be enough. Pick the manly stuff - like change of light bulbs and let her clean the bath and wash the dishes. There is a reason macho-men get more sex, we do not do stuff like that. TERRIBLE MISTAKE! c) "I’ve let her keep the place, most of the belongings in it…" WHY? If a woman does treat you less than you deserve, let her feel it. And i mean it. Do not be nice, do not be a gentleman if she treats you badly. If she does not behave you **HAVE** to take actions. High drama alphas like me would confront her. It works for me because drama does not scare me. Lower drama people might prefer BD's way and just move on with life and fuck somebody else. Radio silence can be very powerful. Women needs constant validation from their man, if you take that away it will hurt her. No matter what you do - do not be a nice guy. If, on the other hand, she does what she is expected to do and maybe is even better than what you expected, THEN (and only then) is the right moment to be the perfect gentleman. Because she has earned it - and not otherwise. d) "And yet, two weeks out from my departure she has yet to put the littlest effort into making sure she can handle this." If you did read so far, this should be no surprise. Of course she has been doing nothing; there is nobody there to give her orders now that you left. Where is her leader? Where is the man in the house to say what to do? This is not an age issue - 48 year old women will be just the same, except they have fewer options to replace you and thus will tolerate more femalish doings on your part. But even then dont expect their panties to get wet by watching you do 75% of the housework.
Blackdragon 2015-08-17 10:26:48
From your experiance do women after like 25 become at least a bit more rational without the girl logic ?No. Woman logic is eternal, as I've described before regarding how over-40 women act on dates. The difference is wild, crazy, stupid, reckless, "teenager" behavior decreases sharply at 23, and levels out at around 25.
where I live the age of consent is 16 unless the older person is in a position of authority (e.g. teacher), and then it’s 18.I live in Washington state, and it's the same here. I'm still not going to date any 16 year-olds though; way too young. These days my working minimum is 23 (with occasional exception).
What a narrow window…. 25-32.It is, but like I said, it's not an absolute. I would be very happy with a woman in my age range as long as she was one of the more non-demanding, low-Disney, low-ASD types. They're definitely out there; there just aren't very many.
I’m suspect there’s wisdom in the 1/2 (of his age) + 7 = (start here for her age) recommendation. Whaddayouthgink, BD?NO. That 1/2+7 rule is pure false Societal Programming. It's the opposite of wisdom. What I described above directly contradicts it, and accurately so. If I had to follow that rule I wouldn't be allowed to date any women under the age of 28. Insane. And I'm only 43. There are plenty of guys I know in their 50s who date women in their mid-twenties with no problems. A woman age 25-26 is a perfectly workable age for any man of any age, be it 25, 37, 56, or higher.
Greg 2015-08-17 10:43:26
"A teenage boy had 100% consensual sex with a teenage girl who lied about her age. Police arrested him and charged him with statutory “rape.” The girl and her mother testified in court that indeed the girl did lie about her age, and that they didn’t think the teenage boy had done anything wrong nor should be punished, and that everything was fine." She lied about being 17 and she was actually 14. You should definitely check at that age range if you passed 18 years of age. On topic, what exactly does "long term" mean for a relationship? How long a term can we realistically expect for an open relationship with a compatible woman of 25-30?
Blackdragon 2015-08-17 12:43:57
She lied about being 17 and she was actually 14. You should definitely check at that age range if you passed 18 years of age.Absolutely. He was a dumbass for not verifying. Doesn't matter; he did nothing wrong. He should not have been punished like that in the first place.
what exactly does “long term” mean for a relationship?My standard definition for long-term is 3 years or longer.
How long a term can we realistically expect for an open relationship with a compatible woman of 25-30?There are way too many variables for me to answer that. It depends on the man (Alpha or beta), the woman (type and personality), the ages of both, the income of both, whether or not they get monogamous, or move in together, or have a baby together, etc.
CrabRangoon 2015-08-17 13:32:43
I constantly hear girls in my age group(30+) throw around the "age appropriate" term for the girls I should be dating. Anytime I mention a girl in her 20's, cue the eye rolls. It really does drive them nuts when guys date younger and in many cases I've been with girls 10+ years younger. They consider the very thought of me(I'm 37) seeing a girl in her early to mid 20's disgusting. To which I reply quite the contrary...those are some of the least disgusting women out there. I assume it's all part of their hivemind mentality and self preservation. Typical shaming language to keep us interested in them as they age. Fortunately for me I broke free of that years ago.
Diggy 2015-08-17 13:34:12
Maldek, Thanks for taking the time to consider my situation. I can see how taken out of context that looks bad... but Im not the hapless sap that posts appears to be. I do own BDs book. 90% of it really was great. Non paid endorsement: the life goals section alone will improve any ones life and is worth the price of admission. Write your goals down and make a plan! While I'm in a co-habitational relationship, its non monogamous. I was dating seven women when I met her. Shes a spectacular human being, not "The One" (cue BD TM haha), but shes great to be around. We moved in together when we moved to a different state and I dont regret it one bit. a) Trust me, friend. I used to lead and give clear commands. I lead very effectively. Its just gotten to the point its not worth it. I don't even try any more. I know its over. No trouble for me. I'll just move on. b) I like things clean. I'm not going to fight someone on this and live in filth. I dont mind work so I'll just do it. I get what you are saying but when the overall nature of our relationship isn't worth it, I move on. And have. It's not this one thing... its that she doesn't make up for lack of desire to clean our home with something that is also of value. I also find this gender role BS to be SP. I can clean my bathroom and do the dishes just fine. I live alone a lot and wont pay for a maid. I enjoy knowing I can keep my place clean. It's only an issue when I'm 50% of the mess and 75+% of the solution. c) Why? Because its a good deal for me. I own the place. The market here in Denver is unreal currently. Why not keep it and get more money out of it down the road. Trust me, she's not dirty and will be much better than the random renter. I should point out that I'm frugal and I move a lot. So most of the belonging that I paid for that I'm leaving were either free to me or second hand deals. Making it more costly to move them than just give them up. My possessions don't own me. Also, I don't do drama. I'm not scared of it. Its boring and low browed to me. Correct me if I'm wrong BD but I don't recall him ever saying not to be nice. In fact I swear in his book he says to play nice in an alpha way. It doesn't seem alpha or outcome independent to place you being a gentleman on wither someone is doing what you want. Seems narcissistic to me... d) Man, I dont care any more. It's almost funny to me at this point. If she fails, she fails, Im gone either way. Respectfully, I think the difference between me and you is compassion brother. Just because she failed to meet my level of value doesn't mean I have to treat her like crap. She is a wonderful woman and not easily replaceable unless you only value a wet hole. She's not mean or hateful, she's a woman in a LTR... ie not meant to last. I'm doing exactly what I expected to do 2.5 years ago. Enjoy the crap out of her while it lasts and structure my life to be great when it ends...all while never closing off my sexuality to other women. To me a gentleman always wins...even if its just saving face. An emotionally balanced alpha doesn't need to act out and bring drama into the end. I know what I want and I'm getting exactly that. So when I was offered a 150k a year job that requires less than 4 hours of work a day in a smaller college town I took it. I told her that I wasn't paying to move her. That it was over but that I could help her out if she wanted to stay in the place. With in 30 mins of me breaking up with her she literally blew me. It was great and a testament to treating someone with respect and how wonderful my life is when you follow the alpha 2.0 plan within my personality. I'm never looking back... NEVER! I was mainly trying to tie my life experience with how correct BD is even when they don't act like teenagers...
tim 2015-08-17 14:50:38
I dated a 20 year old at 32 for several months. Yes she was technically an adult. But I agree with BD, she behaved exactly like the annoying girls I remember from high school. Needless to say, I moved on and she had a new guy in about a week. Then after him a new guy. And so on. I'm 35 now and I'm sticking with 25+. No interest in dealing with the drama and social media addicted early 20's girls.
Jack Outside the Box 2015-08-17 15:22:30
BD, how do you ask a girl for ID smoothly without it ruining the mood? I'm having trouble segueing into it without sounding professional or like an inept dork.
Jack Outside the Box 2015-08-17 15:30:52
Yeah…where I live the age of consent is 16 unless the older person is in a position of authority (e.g. teacher), and then it’s 18. I can’t even mention that without being looked at like a pervert, so I just keep it to myself and bite my tongue whenever I hear someone incorrectly assert that it’s 18 across the board.@John Smith: It is 18 across the board because even if the age of consent is lower in your specific state, sleeping with her can still get you thrown in prison for other things, such as "Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor," if her parents don't approve. Also, if a 17 year old girl is visiting you without her parents' permission, you could be charged with kidnapping if you don't immediately return her to her parents, even if she's 17 and the age of consent is 16 in your area. Those are pretty serious charges, even if you avoid the sex offender registry because she met the age of consent.
Amanda 2015-08-17 15:50:53
Wow ... totally spot on about the ages. I started to mature at exactly 23. From ages 19-22 I partied heavily, and cut all that out right after I turned 23. Interestingly, I learned several years later that that's right around the time the human brain shifts from adolescent to adult characteristics. At 24 I got my first steady job, but it wasn't until about 25 or 26 that I really became self-sufficient, and I was 29 when I bought my first house (I'm 30 now and plan to buy a second one and rent this one out in a few years). I had an interesting conversation with my mom last night about relationships. She asked me if I understood that eventually my boyfriend will in all likelihood will want to get married, and if I would be OK with letting him go if he were to give me an ultimatum and that wasn't what I wanted. I told her that yes, I understood that was a possibility, and I would be sad because I care about him but it wouldn't be the end of the world for me. She still thinks it's totally weird (and I get the feeling she also views it as a sign of immaturity on my part), but I explained to her that marriage isn't the end goal for everyone and not everyone fits into the same box. Well, at least there was some progress ... Oh, and I had a male friend who went to prison for a YEAR when he was 18 for having sex with his 17-year-old girlfriend. Their relationship started when they were both underage, later turned sour, and her mom called the police and had him arrested on a charge of statutory rape. He was also forced to register as a sex offender, with his photo and address published on the Megan's Law website (later removed after they revised the regulations to only include serious offenders ... back when it started, people were appearing on that site for things like urinating in public). Totally insane, and also very scary considering they were both so young at the time.
Blackdragon 2015-08-17 16:10:15
I constantly hear girls in my age group(30+) throw around the “age appropriate” term for the girls I should be dating. Anytime I mention a girl in her 20’s, cue the eye rolls. It really does drive them nuts when guys date younger and in many cases I’ve been with girls 10+ years younger.And remember, according to their own Societal Programming, THEY are allowed to fuck much younger men, but YOU aren't allowed to fuck much younger women.
I assume it’s all part of their hivemind mentality and self preservation.Yup.
BD, how do you ask a girl for ID smoothly without it ruining the mood?Outcome independence. I don't worry or care at all about the "mood" or how smooth she thinks I am when I ask for that ID. I just ask. I'm placing myself at extreme legal risk if I don't ask for it, so I don't care about the mood or what she thinks. I just say, "Let me see your driver's license." I just say it, no lead-up or anything. Never had a problem.
It is 18 across the board because even if the age of consent is lower in your specific state, sleeping with her can still get you thrown in prison for other thingsCorrect. In the psycho-US, it is still somewhat dangerous for an adult man to have sex with a *legal* 16 or 17 year-old. For the reasons you stated, I recommend to all American men that they draw the line at 18 regardless of what their state laws are. (Men living in Europe, S. America, or Asia don't need to worry; as long as she's legal, you're safe.) There's too many possibilities for legal problems otherwise. (And there are even some possible risks post-18.) In a 2-3 decades, when everyone looks young regardless of numerical age (because of health and technology advancements), Americans won't be psycho about this and no one will care. But until that day, you need to be careful (or stay away from younger women altogether).
Zan 2015-08-17 17:17:59
Hey BD, nice insight and advice. I was wondering could you layout, in your opinion, the life stages or phases of a woman's life.... for example 18-23 could be one phase, representing immaturity/party lifestyle, phase 2 could be 24-29 (more mature/responsible), 30..... you get the point. I think your POV/ breakdown would be an interesting. Thanks
Duke 2015-08-17 18:54:12
@ Zan, here you go: https://blackdragonblog.com/2011/05/31/womens-age-differences/ Try to use the new here option at the top of the page under about.
Zan 2015-08-17 21:17:01
Duke, you are the man..... thank you very much. I'm getting ready to go buy the book, now. Much respect!!!!!!
CrabRangoon 2015-08-18 08:18:22
@Zan I'd also recommend Rollo Tomassi's site therationalmale.com for a really great layout of all the phases women go through to better understand what to expect. With great info like this from BD and others, you can tweak your game depending on the age of the woman you're dating. Wish I had this stuff 10 years ago. Start with this article: http://therationalmale.com/2014/03/16/preventative-medicine-part-i/
Zan 2015-08-18 11:22:09
@CrabRangoon... Much appreciated, I'll grab that as well. This is a really good site with a cool helpful community...Thanks again.
billyboy 2015-08-18 12:38:12
I disagree with some of this. I'm only 29 myself, but I feel the mental "age" of someone varies dramatically at their biological age. There are legitimately some 21 year old that have "grown up fast" especially if they skipped college. There are women who are 30, 40 who still act like children. I think it varies and you just have to be honest about their intelligence, experience, and 'mental' age when assessing. Also your article on the 16 year old marrying the old actor. Meh, I would hardly lose sleep over it. But you're saying the "physical body" is all that matters. I disagree -- it's actually the opposite most people have a problem over. People feel that an older man can "fool" very young women, or children, or "exploit" them, with his vast experience and superior resources, into doing things that aren't ultimately best for them. It's a "mental" thing --- the very young woman is "mentally" defenseless and doesn't exactly know what she wants, or knows the world, so here comes a far superior salesman to "persuade" her. At least that's the narrative. It's the 'mental' faculties that are more important than the physical ones. That's why it's perhaps unethical to sleep with extremely drunk or severely mentally disabled women. Conversely, a 30 year old women with the body of a 12 year old girl (there are those out there that exist) -- may disgust you personally, but some guys aren't all that bent up about a girl who is short and has tiny breasts (though it can be creepy if they are specifically searching out/ pretending they are with a pre-teen). You say as long as the banging body is there, it's all good. Well, no shit. That's every man on Earth. (my penis wants it, so I'll stick it in, regardless of consequences!). Well no, if the body was banging, but the girl was in fact bizarrely well, well under the age of consent ... well it may be physically impossible and "does not compute" --- but shit ... there would be ethical concerns. This is the same reason why some people don't like guys in very high positions of power using that to sleep with woman (like a boss and his secretary) --- it's one thing if it's truly consensual, quite another if it's exploitative/ manipulative. The physical body is the least of anyone's moral concerns really.
Blackdragon 2015-08-18 19:26:47
Billyboy I don't think we disagree. If you encounter some bizarre mutant, like a trim 11 year-old girl who was 5'6", had huge boobs, fully-developed hips, fully-developed ass, and a chiseled, grown-woman face, then I agree it would be unethical to have sex with her even if the laws allowed it. But honestly, how many girls that young have bodies like that? I have always said, and I will continue to say, that in the modern era, the age of consent for everything (voting, driving, sex, drinking, marriage, legal contracts, etc) should be 16. So picture a 16 year-old girl who has a fully developed body like the above, who's already had sex with 7 guys and loved it, in a state/country where 16 year-olds are legal. (The modern-day Western world is FULL of girls just like this.) Would it be unethical to have sex with her, provided you weren't lying to her in any way or leading her on? My answer is no. (Again, I wouldn't have sex with a 16 year-old even if legal because of uniquely American legal risks; but now we're talking about ethics, not legalities.) Now picture another 16 year-old girl in the same town, only with an underdeveloped body of an 10 year-old, who's also a virgin (because she has no real sexual desire yet). Unethical to have sex with her? Yes! Not only unethical, but also GROSS! The physical body does indeed make the difference. The only time it doesn't when when you're talking very rare and bizarre exceptions to the rule (like 11 year-old girls with fully developed 25 year-old bodies).
Diggy 2015-08-19 07:58:06
But honestly, how many girls that young have bodies like that?They do exist. I used to work at a gym where I would always talk to this absolutely gorgeous woman. 5'10" built, chest, held herself well. One day I was asking her about her weekend and what clubs she went to. She asked how old I thought she was... "IDK, 19-20 but I know women like you get into clubs" "I'm 14." :O I would have never thought twice about banging her. Turns out she was a buddy's little brothers HS GF and they lost their virginity together. How cute! Still scary....
Amanda 2015-08-19 19:59:13
Early puberty is becoming more and more common, especially in girls. Doctors seem to think it's caused by obesity and endocrine disruptors, among other things. Come to think of it, I am noticing that a lot of the kids in my neighborhood look significantly older than they are. But even my 9-year-old cousin, whose mom is a former model/total health nut and feeds them organic foods and such, looks several years older than her 12-year-old brother - which indicates to me that the cause may be environmental as well (they live in Orange County, which has a lot of pollution). When I was growing up in the 90s, I saw this type of thing on occasion, but it was super rare - I recall a girl in my third-grade class who had DD breasts at the age of NINE, when the rest of us were just starting to wear training bras, but again this was highly unusual. The studies are showing that although these girls are maturing quickly, most stop growing sooner and do not reach their expected adult height. It is indeed scary to think what the implications could be if this trend continues. I also wonder why it is affecting girls so much more than boys - 10:1, according to an article I read. I didn't develop a womanly figure until about age 24, but that's because I was just super skinny throughout my adolescence and young adulthood. When I gained some weight, it first went to my stomach but fortunately later moved to the right places instead!
Hugo 2015-08-20 03:13:07
I have always said, and I will continue to say, that in the modern era, the age of consent for everything (voting, driving, sex, drinking, marriage, legal contracts, etc) should be 16. So picture a 16 year-old girl who has a fully developed body like the above, who’s already had sex with 7 guys and loved it, in a state/country where 16 year-olds are legal. (The modern-day Western world is FULL of girls just like this.) Would it be unethical to have sex with her, provided you weren’t lying to her in any way or leading her on? My answer is no. Now picture another 16 year-old girl in the same town, only with an underdeveloped body of an 10 year-old, who’s also a virgin (because she has no real sexual desire yet). Unethical to have sex with her? Yes! Not only unethical, but also GROSS!That case is easy. But what about a 16 year-old girl with an underdeveloped body of an 10 year-old, who’s already had sex with 7 guys and loved it, in a state/country where 16 year-olds are legal? Not for you, I know, but what if petite girls with small boobs turn me on? should be fine, even by your book, I guess? Now picture another 16 year-old girl in the same town, who has a fully developed body like the above, who’s also a virgin (because she has no real sexual desire yet? I would say stay away - even though that may be easier said then done (although I'm actually into older women, so easy for me...)
doclove 2015-08-20 04:47:12
Black Dragon is right. The USA and to a lesser extent Canada is weird about the age of consent. Don't get me wrong, I would never knowingly have any kind of sexual activity with human female under the age of 18, eighteen. I never wanted to have sex with a human female under the age of 18 even when I was 18 in the year of 1986 because of these crazy social norms and laws which have only gotten worse. Every man must understand that in the USA, the age of consent for sex is a strict liability law meaning that you can have no mitigating circumstances. Even if the girl shows you what law enforcement officers and judges would say looks like a real driver's license, state identification card or passport with parents saying she is of legal age to consent to sex and you have an audio visual recording of all of this which the police, judge and jury viewed then it still does not matter because the law says you must be arrested, tried, convicted and punished to the full extent of the law(obviously there is some discretion as to how much of a punishment the judge can sentence convicts with), Statutory Rape law-that is!!!! The funny thing is women are by far more likely to get a lesser punishment than men for statutory rape and in some cases the minor boy was ordered to pay child support to the adult woman after she gave birth to a baby. The USA used to be less weird on this. I offer my Great Grandmother as an example. She was 15 when she was dating and engaged to my Great Grandfather when he was 21 with the consent of my Great Grandmother's mother, my Great Great Grandmother. My Great Grandfather walked up to my Great Great Grandmother and said that he thought her daughter, my Great Grandmother was beautiful and would like the opportunity to court(ancient dating) her with the view that he was looking for a wife. After he bowed and kissed, my Great Great Grandmother's hand(this was an ancient Polish custom of men respecting women and they were all Polish immigrants), my Great Great Grandmother laughed and granted him permission to date her daughter, my Great Grandmother. My Great Grandmother was married at Age 16 and gave birth to her first child, my grandmother at age 17 turning 18 a month after my grandmother was born which means my Great Grandfather was age 22 when he married and age 23 when he became a father. Mind you this was common behavior back then between 1915 and 1918, the year my grandmother was born. It was even more common before this time period.
doclove 2015-08-20 05:03:57
I would also like to tell you about the federal laws on this even though take in mind that I am no lawyer and this is not officially legal advice and you should consult a lawyer for legal advice. If you are in the military, the legal age of consent for sex is 18 and it does not matter if you are in a state or nation where it is lower meaning that for all military personnel, it is a felony and statutory rape to have sex with someone under the age of 18 anywhere in the world. Within the past 5 years, the USA has a federal law which states that if you travel outside the USA and have sex with anyone under the age of 18 it is a federal felony and statutory rape.
doclove 2015-08-20 05:34:28
Another thing the USA is weird on is prostitution. With the exception of a few counties in Nevada where one can go to a licensed prostitute and to a licensed brothel, Prostitution Prohibition reigns supreme but websites like Ashley Madison encouraging adultery of married couples is perfectly legal as well as many states allowing a minor to get an abortion without parental consent or knowledge. The USA federal government is vigorously trying to push prostitution prohibition and statutory rape laws for having sex with anyone under the age of 18 around the world and on to foreign governments and nations. For that matter 15 year olds are allowed driver's permit and 16 year olds are allowed a driver's license with parental permission which is virtually always granted in the USA. As anyone should know, a motor vehicle can be turned into an extremely dangerous weapon very easily. For these reasons and more, I think the age of consent should be 15 or 16 even though I would never knowingly engage in sexual activity with anyone under the age of 18. Why was it ok for centuries for people to get married and have children at age 16 or even lower but not now? Why should the USA government get involved in the sex lives of anyone when all persons are mutually consenting adults with sufficient mental faculties to consent even if it is prostitution? Yeah, it makes no sense to me either, and what the USA government and many American people are doing is morally wrong to make statutory rape laws above the age of 15 or 16 as well as making prostitution against the law between consenting adults with sufficient mental faculties.
doclove 2015-08-20 06:14:23
I agree with Black Dragon about his assessments of 18 to 22 year old women, 23 to 25 year old women, 25 to 32, and women who are age 33 and older. I would also say that the transition of women happens between 30 and 35 as well as to how they behave and usually they start to transition between one set of behaviors between the ages of 30 and 32. He is correct that women between the ages of 18 and 22 are crazy and will cheat on you etc, They will also look for good looking men and Alphas more especially if these Alpha men are assholes and drama behavior prone more because that is what turns them on the most. Too many women who are age 33 and older have too much ASD, anti slut defense behavior, in addition to trying to make men spend too much money etc. The problem is that women between the ages of certainly 25 to 30 and usually 30 to 32 seem like great women to marry, but they are not for all the reasons that Black Dragon and I have said in the past. Marriage is a fool's errand in certainly the USA and throughout the West and 1st world Asian nations such as South Korea, Japan, Taiwan etc. If only women would behave as if they are between the ages of 25 and 30 for the rest of their lives, then men's lives and even women's lives would be much better as well as marriage coming closer to being truly agreeable(some other changes would need to happen to make marriage truly agreeable for men) to men. Most men especially American men are more the more foolish of the two sexes for being more romantic and having more idealistic(maybe Disney) love than women especially American women and in persisting in these delusions even to their own detriment. You men think that the woman you marry between the ages of 25 and 30 and possibly between 23 to 25 and 30 to 32 will never change into harpy gold digging whore shrew who acts like an extreme prude to such an extent that she gives you less sex than you want as well as lackluster sex when she does give it up, and that she did not have a raunchy past replete with Alphas who turned these women into what Rollo Tomassi at The Rational Male blog calls ALPHA WIDOWS, but you would be wrong. Most men marry ALPHA WIDOWS and are not sufficiently alpha enough to handle the relationship or her nor are these men able to prevent her from becoming a person who provides lackluster sex when she does provide it which is seldom as well as her becoming a gold digging harpy shrew. Very few men get to marry good women and have successful marriages. Realize that even with these mid twenties to early thirties women, you will need to replace them even though they make for better LTRs, long term relationships for the reasons I have stated and more.
DAHFUK 2015-08-30 15:06:23
The author of this site can't be much older than 22. I had my own place since 18 and worked two full time jobs, and handled my business always. You just date the airheaded type that is looking for someone to take care of her. And did you know there are many women under 33 who are still virgins? Not every woman is a wild girl. You clearly have a type. "Beta women."All the young women in college getting degrees, and starting their own companies. And this is what you attempt to relegate them to? Sexist.
Blackdragon 2015-08-30 15:52:50
Sexist.If you think I'm sexist, please go here, scroll to the bottom where it says "Hater's Corner" and do some reading. If after you've read those articles you still think I'm sexist, come back and tell me that, and please back up your accusation with real, logical arguments.
Superclean 2015-09-08 11:21:11
Hi BD. Recently found the blog and it brilliant. Wish I had a few months ago. I was hoping for a little advice if possible. I need to mesh a few or your posts together. Just got out of a 5 years (monogomas) relationship at 36. I met a 22 y/o that is a solid 9. Seven weeks ago. She is from another city. 5 hours. I visited once and she stayed over first night in hotel. I read you LDR post and would like to maintain a FB LDR. She actually does maintain complete independence @22. I had a brief spell of oneitis but mostly kept it under wraps. She would text and facetime daily. I should have slowed this down I see now. She always initiated though. She planned a visit in a couple weeks. About 10 days ago she went to a party claiming worried about her sister being there. I honestly don't believe it. Facetime at 1 am to tell me she was home. I was half asleep when I took the call. Communication pattern completely changed after that day. I have initiated 2 conversations 1 from her. I have not been ghosted but definitely different . I have yet to hear why. What is your take or advice going forward?
Blackdragon 2015-09-14 15:25:50
Just schedule the next time she comes down to have sex. If she balks, ignore her for at least a month and then try again.
SteveB 2015-09-20 21:36:14
OK, HELP NEEDED ASAP.....I've been dating off and on (more off than on) a younger woman since last October. I did NC on her for five weeks through mid July to late August because I wasn't satisfied with what I was getting out of my time with her. Plus I am the type that traditionally doesn't like "sharing" my main interest with other guys. I know what you always say which is don't worry about the girl's whereabouts, just fuck the girl and don't worry about anything else as long as you are in their circle as a player in their sex lives. I know it's bad to do, but even when I'm with another girl, all I can do is wonder periodically who she's with or what she's doing when we're not together. And I know she has lied many times to me to try to explain where she's been (although she doesn't know I know) so that I don't get upset and call it quits on us. Long story short, she texted a couple times saying she missed me and we got back together, but mostly just daytime meetings. I know in my gut she is seeing another guy or guys and I tell her it's ok to admit it and that we are both dating, but she never admits it, just says "If that's what you want to believe" Anyway, we're in Florida and I asked if she would like to go to Puerto Rico for the first time and she said I'd love it! I thought it would be a great bonding experience for her to get closer to me in a great, stress free atmosphere where we could just have a great time for a few days. Leading up to the trip we've been spending quite a bit of time doing things together like horseback riding, riding on the motorcycle, etc. but only two actual nights at my house in a month. Now it comes time for the trip and I am feeling that things haven't progressed really at all from when I did NC. Now it's possible to only get a refund on the hotel portion, not the airfare although for a $100 fee per ticket the airline will give you a credit toward another flight with their airline to be used within 12 months. Tonight she came over and we talked, I didn't go beta, but did point out some things I'm not happy with and she said she is still excited about going with me, not just to Puerto Rico, but with me. Then she said she had to go into work (a nurse) at 10pm even though she normally works 7am-3pm. However, she does get overtime that she does go in for at odd hours and I have checked up and verified other times she went in late and she was working. But this time I stopped by at 11pm and her car wasn't there. My question is, should I go with the flow and not question her and go on with the trip and try to do as planned which is show her a great time so that she sees how great of a time we can have together or should I salvage as much of a refund as I can get and call her out on her lies and that her actions are why I am cancelling the trip and her actions are what is keeping us from being happy together and then go back to NC with her?
SteveB 2015-09-21 02:31:47
I don't understand why she wouldn't want to spend MORE of her time with whoever she is also seeing if I'm right that she's having sex more often with them than with me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it indicate a female's level of interest in someone based on how often she's having sex with them? If that's the case then why wouldn't she say to me that she doesn't want to hang out at all and then she'd be able to be with whoever she likes more even more of the time. ???
Blackdragon 2015-09-21 14:28:48
I didn't read all of your gigantic comments, but it sounds like you have oneitis and need to have sex with some new girls who are BETTER LOOKING than her so you can move on an stop worrying like a beta.
SteveB 2015-09-21 15:21:50
Thanks BD, but actually I thought you might go into a little more on this one. Btw, I am extremely observant and trust me when I say she is a model and less than 1% of woman are even equal in looks, that's the problem. And no I'm not a whiner, I tell it like it is. Long story short I need to hard next and I know it and it's the fucking hardest thing to get myself to accept. I wanted this one to work so bad I won't be able to even attempt to get you to understand.
Blackdragon 2015-09-21 15:52:53
Btw, I am extremely observant and trust me when I say she is a model and less than 1% of woman are even equal in looks, that’s the problem.Bullshit. Oneitis. Scarcity. Beta. Pussy. Stop whining and man up. Do what needs to be done.
SteveB 2015-09-22 03:39:28
OK Fine not a problem, I know about using scarcity and NC as I said in my last message. My question is, when, if ever, are you going to focus on guiding men to get and keep the woman they want instead of us having to lower ourselves to the level of playing these women's games and managing the situation with ignoring tactics just so we can have sex with them only when they "allow" us. When you break it down that's what NC is all about. Playing the game so they miss us and change their previous behavior so they have sex on a temporary basis until we have to do it again to them. Seems that life is way too fucking short to keep a calendar on all these women trying to remember when you should start or stop your NC. Fucking insane that this is the best life has to offer, lol
Blackdragon 2015-09-22 15:24:52
My question is, when, if ever, are you going to focus on guiding men to get and keep the woman they wantNEVER. Your question is completely backwards, and if you didn't have RANGING oneitis, you would never have asked such a ridiculous thing. Unless you're both over the age of 60, ALL RELATIONSHIPS ARE TEMPORARY. She WILL leave you eventually no matter what (or you'll leave her, but it's way more likely she'll leave you). This is what women do. The only way to "keep her" (longer) is to SUBMIT TO HER AGENDA and start betaizing yourself to her. If you want to do that, then go ahead, but I'd rather kill myself. And even then she'll STILL leave you. (Women dump submissive betas all the time; it just takes them longer.) You think my advice is following their program...good god man...it's the exact opposite. Focusing on keeping her around is following her program. Following my advice is against the traditional feminine model and pro the MAN'S program. You've got to get your head screwed on straight dude. You've got to get over this woman. But hey, if you want to wring your hands every time you like a girl and worry constantly about keeping her around and preventing her from leaving, well, then it's your life, and I'm glad I'm not you. I prefer freedom and happiness. This is my last comment to you here, since I can't help guys with extreme alpha male 1.0 oneitis like this. I wish you the best of luck.
SteveB 2015-09-22 23:19:06
First off, I don't expect a response, I know you have tons of others to get to, but all I can say is wow. I guess I live a miserable and worthless existence as a man, lol. I totally get your advice and agree with it, but I look around and ask myself are all the millions of married men out there all cowering beta males that are not happy? There must be a middle ground.....then again maybe I am just thick headed and stubborn. Not sure. I appreciate your honest take however.
yannick 2016-08-07 16:05:53
I lost the weight had a bit of balding so i cut it short buzz cut now i train my a$$ off six times per week broad shoulders strong chest slim waist. I am 44....... my main issue right now is that i get hit on by 25y old women. Last night with some friends we went out and i started teasing the waitress the song carless wisper was playing i ask her to change to toune she said well you are not romantic my friend jumped him and said well when he hears that song he want to slow dance she then said i been waiting for this all night long........ i froze lol most guys at my job discourage me telling me its all in my head and that at my age i am done...... That encouraged me but to be honest at 44 i rather go for a 35y old then a young 25. She asked me if i had some kids...... never had any....... at my age fat chance i don't want any either. But still i don't go out a lot but each time i do somethig wicked like this happens.
Ed 2016-08-19 16:20:01
Beta........Beta.........here Beta.........wheres that dog crap emoji when you need it!
Big Eddie G 2016-09-02 20:30:56
BTW, Doug Hutchison and his teenage wife did not permanently separate or get divorced. They reconciled, and she is pregnant with their first child at age 22.... Some organization cited by OkCupid(?) did a study that asked various men of all ages in essence "if you could have sex one time with any girl/women before you die, no repercussions, what age would she be?" The answers from all ages of men were tallied, and the average came back something on the order of "19.31" years old... Going for sex with that hot teenager seems on average, every guy's fantasy...women's answers, OTOH, showed on average, they sexually preferred guys to be slightly older than them, no matter what age the woman was...
Blackdragon 2016-09-02 21:45:38
BTW, Doug Hutchison and his teenage wife did not permanently separate or get divorced. They reconciled, and she is pregnant with their first child at age 22….Not really relevant. They separated and then got back together because they could make more money on their stupid reality TV shows. They'll separate again in a year or two regardless of any baby. Just watch.
The answers from all ages of men were tallied, and the average came back something on the order of “19.31” years old… Going for sex with that hot teenager seems on average, every guy’s fantasy…women’s answers, OTOH, showed on average, they sexually preferred guys to be slightly older than them, no matter what age the woman was…Yeah, I remember reading something about that.
Niteride Mick 2017-02-01 14:25:22
Hey BD Don't you think there is rules for some and rules for others, ie Elvis Presley dating a 14yr old girl Jerry Lewis marries his 16yr old cousin Touring UK rock bands Beatles ,Stones,Bowie one groupie wrote about it in a book how she shag Bowie underage in a LA hotel Nothing happens to them Double standards !!!!
Blackdragon 2017-02-01 15:54:11
Not sure I understand your point. I was very clear in the article that fucking younger women is fine (provided they're legal), but having long-term expectations of them in serious relationships is not fine. How did those relationships actually end up? (Jerry Lee Lewis, as just one example, was married seven times.)
Gaurav Sharma 2017-06-13 08:54:09
The best article ever, no words, i am just speechless, it took me years to find the answers, now i got it. Thanks a ton.
Paolo 2017-12-10 15:58:48
She's survived The TalkWhat's it?
peter s hanson 2018-01-28 15:41:16
Hey BD. I would like to get your thoughts of dependency. I am currently a full time student at college working on side projects and such with most of my time consumed. I am 23 and I pay for all my expenses on my own, however I use a G.I. Bill I get from school as well as financial aid to support myself till I'm finish with my B.A. I read on your article that when considering how many women are independent and you list "government" as a factor that could take away their independence. With not getting too deep into specifics, am I hindering myself on my own personal growth and maturity by not obtaining a job while going to school? I know your not trying to shame anyone for using assistance during difficult times but I would like to know if you could consider someone an adult if they happened to use some support from school? And if so, I would like to get your thoughts of ways I could go about to further pursue my growth as an young adult. Thank you.