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Sugar Daddy Dating Sites
I’ve been avoiding talking about this topic for over two years now, but it has reached a point where sugar daddy dating sites (SDD) are indeed now a significant part of the online dating landscape. For the time being, these sites are here to stay, and will have an effect (positive or negative) on all dating (online or otherwise) for the next several years at least.
-By Caleb Jones
SDD is online game. Many, if not most of the concepts and techniques, are the same. At the same time, there are some very strong differences. If you go to a site like Seeking Arrangement using the exact same profile and messaging techniques as you used on OKCupid with no changes whatsoever, you’re going to get nowhere fast, and waste a hell of a lot of time. The same goes if you go to OKCupid or Match.com and try to run sugar daddy game. So be aware that not all the techniques are the same. There are very clear differences. Perhaps I’ll go into more detail in a future post regarding the specifics, but I don’t want this article to run too long.
The Issue of Spending Money
Those of you who have read my stuff for a long time know that my goal is to get to sex via online dating sites as fast as humanly possible while spending the minimum amount of money, and use this as a source to generate long-term non-monogamous relationships. Let's analyze this in the context of SDD. Does SDD game violate that “minimum amount of money” condition? Yes.
As I will discuss in a minute, even if you don’t actually pay these women money to have sex with you, your first dates (and second dates, if you have them) are going to cost way, way more than the typical Blackdragon first/second date. My grand total meet-to-sex money-spending average these days is same as it’s ever been: around $19 not including gas. That’s both first and second date, combined. One-third of the time it’s zero dollars. This is rarely going to happen on an SDD site. It will happen sometimes if you're good, but it will not be the norm.
Does this mean that SDD sites are always a bad idea? No. Many men at my age and income level believe, not incorrectly, that slapping down $100-$200 (in date costs or sugar baby costs), instantly bypassing all the time and effort to learn and practice “game,” is a good deal in terms of time management. They are technically correct. If spending $100-$200 every time you want to have sex or go out on a first date is no big deal to you, and you’ve got a decently high income with little debt, and you’re a busy guy, then yeah, spending that kind of money to have sex with young hotties who are not quite as STD-ridden as a professional prostitute might be okay in your case. I have discussed when and how to spend money on women both in a dating/seduction environment and in a relationship environment here and here. Read those articles if you want more detail on this important topic.
Is Sugar Daddy Game Really Game?
The next issue, which I have seen hotly debated on various pickup forums for several years now, is the contention that the sugar daddy game “doesn’t count”. It’s “not game”. It “doesn’t require any self-improvement” or “moving out of your comfort zone”. Some have even said that it’s “not Alpha”. On the other side, pro-sugar daddy dudes say yes, indeed it is a game just like any other type of game, and there is a skill and art that’s needed in order to be successful.
Just like with Democrats and Republicans, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Does some level of game play a role? Yes. Some. Picture some disgusting-looking, dumpy, a-hole Asperger’s guy walking up to a young hottie in a club, slapping down $1000 cash, and saying, “Have sex with me! I’ll give you $1000!!!” Will that work? Nope. He’s not going to have sex with her no matter how much money he throws at her. It works the same on SDD sites. Ugly, dumpy, uncalibrated, needy, high-income betas constantly hit on the the women there and throw out huge and insane offers (“I’ll give you $8,000 a month!!!”), and most of these guys don’t get laid. So yes, some baseline level of game is required to make sugar daddy game work.
Does SDD game require the same amount of game as “normal” online game? No. Online game is harder and does require more skill. This is particularly if you do end up paying the girl, either in cash or a fancy date. With normal online game, my response rates are horrible, and I can’t screw up at any point of the process: from the profile, to the online communication, to the date pitch, to the first real-life date, and to the second real-life date where I escalate to sex. Any misstep on my part during any of those stages, and I lose the girl fast. I still get laid, and online game works, but you got to be good and can’t screw up. That’s what my online game ebook is all about.
With sugar daddy game, my response rates are insanely high (30-50% instead of my usual 5-8%), and I can really relax. I can do all kinds of things wrong and still get laid. Yes, there’s a level of game and appearance I must maintain, but it’s WAY easier than normal online game, assuming I have no problem jacking up the amount of money I'm willing to spend on women or dates. That’s exactly why sugar daddy game has become so popular: it’s easier for normal, non-player men to do. It's become a huge rage among married beta males. (This recent hubub about Ashley Madison is stupid; that's not where all the married men are having affairs. They're having their affairs at these sugar daddy sites.)
A final argument would be that if you intend on paying women, that doesn’t require as much game, but if you intend on doing SDD with the intention of not paying the women and getting laid for “free” (and remember, “free” in this context means you’re still often spending $100-$200 on dates), then that does require game. This is more or less correct. As I’m about to show, I’ve had sex with women from SDD sites without paying them, and it did require effort. Also as I’m about to show, the extra effort wasn’t worth the results.
Over the last 24 months, I’ve run three experiments on several SDD sites. I had different goals for different experiments, and it would take too much time to go into the specific details here. The bottom line was that I wanted to determine four things:
1. How much time was required to get laid via SDD. I usually have sex within 3-4 total hours of face time with a new woman using normal online game (provided they're under the age of 33).
2. How often I could get laid for a Blackdragon-acceptable dollar amount via SDD. In my world, that means I’ve spent less than $30 total for both first and second dates, total, pre-sex. Zero dollars, as always, is ideal.
3. How easy it is to get to sex without paying the women any cash via SDD.
4. How much extra effort, if any, was required to accomplish the above four items via SDD over normal online game at a site like OKC or POF (I no longer use Tinder; it's no longer workable for men my age).
On the first experiment, I simply tried to get to sex with women as cheaply as possible, but I allowed the possibility that I might have to pay a few, and if so, how much? Yes, that sounds like Blackdragon heresy, and it is, but like I said this was an experiment. I haven’t changed anything about my overall game and these days, I still spend a grand-total average of $19 from meet-to-sex. I make plenty of money, so spending a few bucks on one or two experiments to jack that number up temporarily, in order to gather data, was an acceptable price to me.
Indeed, on the third experiment, I was adamant that I wasn’t going to pay any money to anyone, but spending a little extra on the date if necessary was okay.
How did I do? My results:
1. From three SDD blitzes (covering a period of two years going back to 2013), I had sex with 15 different women. 2. Seven of these women cost me between 0 - 50 dollars, grand total everything, meet-to-sex. Two of them cost me literally zero, three of them cost me less than $30 on normal Blackdragon first/second dates, and two more cost me more than $30 because they insisted I pay for something (one wanted help with gas and the other wanted me to buy her sunglasses, which I did in both cases). Site note: for all three experiments I only opened women under age 23 to ensure minimum ASD and minimum inflexible gold-digger behaviors, though I did end up with two who were over this age because they opened me first.
3. The other eight of these 15 women cost me way too much: between $120 and $300, grand total everything meet-to-sex. I paid cash to some in the experiment, some of them demanded more extravagant dates, others demanded gifts. It made my skin crawl to pay this money, but again, I was conducting three temporary experiments in order to gather data just like any other researcher. The things I do for you guys! (I don’t recommend doing something like this if you don’t have a high income and low debt).
4. The slight good news is that just about all of these women (14 out of 15) fell within the 3-4 hour face time window for meet-to-sex. The other good news is that all of them were very attractive. Women on SDD sites are indeed more attractive than most women you’ll find on a normal dating site. (However, I have sex with plenty of attractive women on normal dating sites; it requires going through the numbers, which admittedly takes more time, and paying the sites (like OKCupid) their monthly fee to open up the better-looking women. Therefore, this attractiveness aspect isn’t really a big new difference for me.)
Reading that, some may view my results as a success. Seven out of 15 women falling under the Blackdragon parameters are pretty good, isn’t it? That’s a 47% success rate! I should be excited about this, right? No. I’ll tell you why. How SDD Women Differ From Normal Dating Site Women
1. They tend to be hotter. That’s the obvious one.
2. They get boyfriends very fast. I’m talking VERY fast, far faster than hot girls you'd meet using any other dating mechanism. Sugar babies do not stay single for long. You can often end up having sex with one of these gals one or two times, then bam, she vanishes, stops responding to your texts, and has a new beta boyfriend on her Facebook page. Another common occurrence is that another sugar daddy who offers to pay her money (or more money, as the case may be) will scoop her up fast, and again, she’s gone.
This makes sense if you think about it. If you were a young, hot girl, craving money and attention, with mountains of guys begging you to give you both of these things, would you stay single? Probably not. Monogamy still doesn’t work of course, so as always, these relationships don’t work out and sometimes the girls come back just like with any other LSFNTE. The problem here is that they vanish much more quickly than normal woman; often just after a few dates. In almost a decade of consistent online dating, I've never seen a group of women dump you and get beta boyfriends as fast as women on SDD sites. It's amazing to watch.
3. They demand money (or things that cost money), even if they are genuinely attracted to you. Don't think that just because she'll be attracted to you she'll want zero money spent on her in an ongoing relationship. That's not how they work. In terms of this, women on SDD sites fall into three categories:
1. Hardcore Sugar Babies. These are hooker-like women who have their solid “price,” will not negotiate on it (much), and will not have sex with you unless you pay up, no matter how strong your game is or even if they’re attracted to you. If you don’t agree to their price they’re gone in a flash, onto the next high-income beta male who will agree to their fee. This represents the majority of the women on these sites, making up at least 65-70% of the women on there.
2. Successful-Boyfriend Seekers. These women aren’t sugar babies in that they won’t demand money-or-nothing. Of course they will take money if offered (and most men on these sites do offer, a lot, so these women happily take it). However, making money is only their secondary objective. Instead, these women are Type 2 VYW whose primary objective is to date a successful guy. Therefore, if you have strong game and do everything right, often you can score with these ladies without paying anything. However, they will still expect you to be A) older and B) classier and/or higher income than average. They will also (usually) expect more gifts, fancy dates, and/or financial support if you continue to see them beyond sex once or twice. This is the smallest category of women on SDD sites, perhaps about 10%.
3. Newbies. These are the new girls who have never done an “arrangement” before and are on there only because they need help with college tuition or supporting their kid (lots of single mothers on SDD sites). As such, they aren’t as jaded or battle-hardened as the Hardcore Sugar Babies, and are much more flexible when it comes to money. If you have strong game, often you can have sex without paying anything. However, if you want to continue to see them, they’ll expect some money, or they’ll move on to a beta boyfriend or needy, beta sugar daddy who will happily provide the cash you refuse to give her that she "needs." These women represent perhaps 20% of the women on SDD sites.
After reading the above, and putting all of this into context within an Alpha 2.0, FB/MLTR lifestyle, you might be able to see the problem. If all you want are one night stands or very short term relationships, SDD sites will do the job if you are financially able to throw around some cash. For that reason SDD sites are the high-income, Thrill of the Hunt man’s dream come true.
However, I don’t do one night stands. I only do long-term relationships. I also don’t like to spend a lot of money during my relationships unless she’s an OLTR (which is rare in my life). On SDD sites, this is almost impossible, for the reasons I stated above. Most women aren’t interested in something beyond a few lays. The few women who will agree to something truly consistent and ongoing will demand money up-front (Hardcore Sugar Babies), or eventually demand money after you have sex a few times (Newbies), or demand gifts/dates that cost money (Successful-Boyfriend Seekers).
On top of all that, even if you do pull off some kind of ongoing thing, the odds are that she’ll very quickly vanish to get a beta boyfriend (much faster than a attractive non-sugar-baby woman would) or a higher-paying sugar daddy. Out the 15 women I’ve had sex with via SDD sites, I was only able to carry on an ongoing relationship at zero cost with one of them. There were an additional three whom I was able to maintain as an experiment, but I had to throw some money at them to keep them around. Not good.
This really sucks for a Pleasure of Sex guy like me. One out of 15 is only a 7% success rate for creating an ongoing relationship. With normal online game, my success rate for this is literally 100% for every woman I have sex with at least twice. 100% vs 7%. Like I said, not good. At least for me. That’s the bottom line to all of this. If you’re an older guy with a higher income, and like one night stands and/or very short term relationships with hot younger women, you’ll love SDD sites. You’ll be like a kid in a candy store. But if you like only long-term, ongoing relationships and you don’t want to throw a lot of money during these relationships, SDD sites aren’t going to work for you as a source for these things.
Therefore, SDD sites only cater to the Thrill of the Hunt market and the guy-who-doesn’t-mind-spending-hunks-of-money market. Men in other categories are going to have to stick with normal online game for the time being, perhaps only using SDD is a side-supplement.
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Louis 2015-09-10 05:23:12
What SDD sites did you use? Which ones do you advise your BlackDragon readers to try?
Marsupial 2015-09-10 05:24:53
"young hotties who are not quite as STD-ridden as a professional prostitute" Young hotties are more likely to be carrying something than a Professional prostitutes, at least here where prostitution is legal.
CrabRangoon 2015-09-10 07:50:32
BD, Have you tried the newer dating app called Hinge? A friend of mine uses it with pretty high response rates and he's average in every way(looks, income, game etc...). Curious to know if you've considered it or tried it already. I haven't dove into online dating in many years-i did it way back in my mid 20's(I'm 37 now) with great success but from what you've said, it's way past it's prime in many cases such as Match, OKC and POF.
Blackdragon 2015-09-10 09:40:51
What SDD sites did you use?A few of the big ones. Seeking Arrangment, Sugardaddyforme.
Which ones do you advise your BlackDragon readers to try?I don't advise them to try any if they want something beyond one or two lays. But if you like one or two lays or expensive relationships, then any of the big ones will do. Most SD guys like Seeking Arrangement, though like all online dating technologies, it's past it's prime. Two years ago I could get 60% response rates on there(!) and damn near all the women were model-gorgeous. Now I get about 25%, and the women are noticeably uglier/fatter.
Young hotties are more likely to be carrying something than a Professional prostitutes, at least here where prostitution is legal.Prostitution is illegal in most of the US; I always come from that vantage point. Plus I really doubt that the typical sugar baby has more STDs than a legal prostitute. I wouldn't know for sure though.
Have you tried the newer dating app called Hinge? A friend of mine uses it with pretty high response rates and he’s average in every way(looks, income, game etc…).No but I'm well aware of it. My understanding is the women on there are more ugly than normal. Could be wrong though.
from what you’ve said, it’s way past it’s prime in many cases such as Match, OKC and POF.Yeah, online dating still works, but I'm patiently waiting for a new innovation there to re-invigorate it. It will happen.
POB 2015-09-10 10:02:12
My personal view on SDD sites: 1) little to no challenge...if you're a ToTh guy who likes to game oldschool chances are you'll probably feel bored after some time using these sites. As you've cleverly pointed out, there's not much traditional game involved in showing some material possessions and using money as bait to attract younger girls (by far the most ancient beta strategy to compensate for lack of skills). Financial improvement walks hand in hand with personal improvement, no point arguing that, but one can (and most likely will) exist without the other. 2) lack of non-monogamous relationship material. Either you go for one night stands or an expensive high-maintenance "GF"? Bad bad deal IMO. 3) If you say 70% of women on these sites are hardcore money-seekers, damn!!!, a guy like myself who sees no point paying money to have sex has no business there. Thing is, if you think clearly, those deals sound like paying up for a more annoying hooker who will probably take you extra effort to go anal or do kinky stuff (having goosebumps right now!). On the other hand, I see why they are growing at large everywhere: supply and demand. There's always a high demand for young attractive girls (and these women know it) and a good supply of high income men whiling to pay a little extra to have sex with them.
Jack Outside the Box 2015-09-10 11:54:46
I'd like to perform my own experiment by reporting these sites to the FBI for inter-state prostitution under the federal RICO statute and see what happens.
Jack Outside the Box 2015-09-10 12:09:19
Another problem that BD didn't mention (regardless of whether you are TOTH or POS) is that sites like these are only good for men who are turned on by female asexuality (which is what all gold digging is). If female heterosexuality is what turns you on, then you will be insulted and resentful that sites like this even exist. Like Kryptokate once said, gold diggers, prostitutes, and materialistas can't wrap their heads around the existence of female heterosexuality. They are asexuals who just can't understand why any woman would ever have sex with a man "for free." They think that if a woman is a billionaire, born into a billionaire family, she has no reason to ever lose her virginity! If you guys are turned on by asexual females (materialistas) strutting their asexuality like pimps and wearing their low sex drives on their sleeves, then these sites are perfect for you. But if asexuals or generous lesbians turn you off and your dick can only get hard for heterosexual women actively showing their heterosexuality, then you need to stay away from all these SDD sites like the plague.
Parade 2015-09-10 12:31:39
Yeah, online dating still works, but I’m patiently waiting for a new innovation there to re-invigorate it. It will happen.For some people maybe. For me, typical online dating only sort of works. I've done a couple blitzes over the past 2 years and, from OKC, I ended up with ~4000 messages sent, ~10 dates, ~2 lays, ~1 that lasted more than a month. Attractiveness of the chicks was average or below average for all of them, and this was using BD's method. I live in a terrible location for dating (great for job/career, terrible for dating). From SDD my experiences are similar to BD's...I was on one of the sites for ~1 month, ended up with ~6 lays, ~15 dates, average spend was ~$20/date (I, unlike BD, steadfastly refused to spend any money beyond paying for a drink/dinner for the chick), but probably ended up in the ~$60/lay range (assuming 5 lays and 15 dates), add in another 60/mo for subscription fees. I did run a single "I'll fly you out here for the weekend" date, which boosted the cost and I'm not counting in this estimate. I did not hand her any $, but I did cover the cost of events/food/flight for her while she was out here. Every lay from SDD was same night, within an hour of meeting the chick. Two of them lasted more than ONS, none lasted more than a month. Attractiveness was above average, but not amazing (6-9's, OKC is 3-6's). Biggest problem with it was the expectation to throw a bit of money around constantly. Normally if I was, say, going to an event with a $40 cover charge, I'd expect her to pay her share. SDD, that can't really happen the same way.
Nick 2015-09-10 14:22:17
On online dating sites, webcam girls are on there hustling to get customers. Can you game these girls or just ignore them?
tonystark 2015-09-10 14:28:05
Currently the highest response rates are on SDD sites: 1. Millionairematch (not just for millionaires, simply high earners) 2. SugarDaddie 3. ChristainMingle 4. OKC 5. Match 6. POF
Blackdragon 2015-09-10 14:45:33
I’d like to perform my own experiment by reporting these sites to the FBI for inter-state prostitution under the federal RICO statute and see what happens.Oh it's definitely prostitution. Regardless of what I think about SDD though, I think all prostitution should be legal. Having any sex that involves two consenting adults illegal is insane.
Like Kryptokate once said, gold diggers, prostitutes, and materialistas can’t wrap their heads around the existence of female heterosexuality. They are asexuals who just can’t understand why any woman would ever have sex with a man “for free.”YES. I ran into at least four women like this, probably more. One conversation I had with the oldest one (31) was particularly depressing. She had never, in her entire life, not had sex without a man giving her money, even when she had serious boyfriends, and even when she was married(!). She had literally lost all grasp of the concept that normal men and women have sex because they like it, not because it's a financial transaction. She wanted a "real relationship" with me, but still wanted regular cash. Me wanting to have sex without any money changing hands was very confusing and frustrating to her; she literally thought I was trying to "rip her off" by trying to have "sex for free." When I tried to explain that MOST women, including very attractive ones, have sex for "free" she literally couldn't understand it. She wasn't the only one either. These were some of the most disturbing conversations I've ever had with a woman. There are definitely women like this on these sites. It's really sad.
I live in a terrible location for datingYeah, as I was reading about your results, I was thinking "he's either doing something very wrong, or he lives in a really bad city."
On online dating sites, webcam girls are on there hustling to get customers. Can you game these girls or just ignore them?Ignore them.
Duke 2015-09-10 15:23:43
"Me wanting to have sex without money changing hands was very confusing and frustrating to her; she literally thought I was trying to "rip her off " by trying to have "sex for free."I bet it was weird to have VYM acting like 33 year and older women. I wonder what percentage of women think this way but are not as overt about it. This probably explains why some married women put men on the wage slave treadmill to buy all kinds of crap in order to make up for the sex they get maybe once a month. The unabashed display of hypergamy on these sites should serve as a lesson and or motivator for inexperienced males who naively believe in all their Disney conditioning.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-10 17:00:46
@BD Well if you are going to be fair on the math it is more like 42% vs. 100% because you didn't factor in your response rate. You had a 600% higher response rate with younger, more attractive women on the SDD sites. Regardless, I would argue 15 is way too small of a sample size. I also expect that given the results of your experiment you could have used a few screening techniques that would have greatly reduced the more highly money-oriented women you seem to have met. I have three current OLTRs I met from SDD that cost me zero. One girl is 21, she was 18 when we met and in addition to being beautiful and sexy is as sweet as can be. She wants nothing from me other than my time and attention. She knows I date other girls and is happy to have me in her life. She even watches my dog for free (would normally cost me $60 a night to board my dog) when I travel. The second one is a 26 year old, ex-ford model. She is 6' in flat feet (I am 5' 8") and is so stunning she stops traffic (literally a guy got in an accident staring at her ass a few weeks ago). I have been seeing her since last December. The third lives out-of-town and I see her every 4 - 6 weeks. I have been seeing her for about 4 years I think. My CPO with her is actually negative because when she flies in her company pays for it and she always buys dinner. She's 29, beautiful, smart and makes over $300k a year (partly thanks to me helping her re-negotiate her comp plan). In addition to these three that I am currently seeing I have had dozens and dozens of women I have seen for between 3 months and several years over the last decade. But even if I factor in all costs of all women I have dated my CPO is still around $35 including women I fly in for dates. When I only consider local women my CPO is around $15. And I disagree on both the categories of women and the percentages. The reality is there are three types of women that are on these sites: - hookers - they tell your their hourly rate - gold diggers - they are looking for expensive stuff be it shopping, trips, meals, etc. - lifestyle/mentorship: women that want to experience an older, more mature man both for lifestyle reasons (can afford a good meal, nice vacations, etc.) and mentorship reasons I will say that there is overlap between the groups. Some hookers will act more like gold diggers if they think they can do better by being a guy’s girlfriend (or god forbid his wife). More importantly there are a number of gold diggers that will act more like the 3rd group if you are a guy they would normally date anyway (not 65, fat and bald). So long as I stick to the women under 24, I would say it is 10% hookers, 40% gold diggers, 50% lifestyle/mentorship. One last point that needs to be made, in my experience when I was on both SDD sites and Match.com about 20-25% of the women overlapped. I had numerous situations where a women on Match wouldn't give me the time of day but on the SDD site she was in bed with me on the first date. I am a huge fan of online dating by in my experience there are two HUGE flaws to online dating: - Misleading Pics: On traditional dating sites women lie big-time about their pics. I have literally seen everything you can imagine from pics that are just incredibly flattering to pics they scanned in from a magazine to pics of their younger, hotter sister and everything in between. Since I am a nice guy I ended up wasting countless hours with women that I would never even consider fucking let alone dating. I know BD claims that he almost never meets a women in person that didn't look like her pics but that simply isn't my experience or that of my friends that do online dating. Misleading pics are a huge problem. - Wants a Relationship: When a women meets you on a normal online dating site and you have your shit together (decent job, decent looks, don’t sound like an asshole, etc.) you are automatically put into the “relationship material” box…a box you do NOT want to be in. The SDD sites fix both of these problems (and to my mind these are the only problems of online dating). The misleading picture problem is resolved because a women’s currency on a SDD site is her looks and therefore she is much less likely to be misleading. In my experience, so long as I use some simple screening techniques to sift through the “catfishers” nearly all the women I meet look like their pics and honestly quite a few look better (which almost NEVER happens on sites like Match.com or OKC). The second problem is also resolved because this isn’t a site about finding a husband/wife but for finding an arrangement. An “arrangement” can mean many things but for nearly everyone it doesn’t mean marriage or a serious relationship so there is no “relationship material” box to put you in. On Match.com this was a constant battle. It is easy to move from great sex/fun guy to relationship guy if you want but not the other way around. The other key is how you construct your profile. I make it very clear on my profile that while I am happy to share my lifestyle with someone I am seeing that I will not be anyone's wallet. This screens out a great deal of women that are all about money. Additionally, anyone that lists anything for "lifestyle expectations" (which is SDD-speak for allowance amount they are expecting) other than "negotiable" I don't contact them. When women contact me that have a specific allowance amount expectation I tell them we probably aren't a good match for that reason and I let them convince me they aren't about money. Most of them I just pass on unless they are exceptionally hot. In terms of longevity it breaks out for me approximately like this, for every 100 women I have hooked up with on SDD sites: - 10% are one night stands - 30% are 2-3x o 5% have strong gold digger tendencies o 10% are too much drama o 15% want exclusivity - 40% More than 3x but less than 3 months - 15% last 3 - 6 months - 5% last 6 months+ I do have to say a couple of things however. Being fit is a HUGE factor with this group. You don't need a body like Channing Tatum but if you are fit, muscular and in shape the age thing is a much smaller factor for most younger women. I frequently find a way to put a workout of some kind into a date or weekend with a woman. Kicking her ass in the gym or on a run is a huge, zero cost DHV when she is less than 1/2 your age. An overweight guy will have a much harder time. The other huge factor is really trying and wanting to be a mentor to these women. It may seem counter intuitive but very little makes a woman want to screw your brains out more than you being able to guide and help her with something that is important to her. I have helped women figure out what to major in, what jobs to interview for, negotiate comp plans, helped one put a business plan together for a new start-up, figure out how to reconnect with a parent or sibling...you name it. I still have women from 10 years ago contact me asking my advice about this or that. I am always happy to help. And to your three differences...well number 1 is a huge bonus. There simply isn't a better way to meet and hook up with beautiful women than SDD. Hands down it is the most effective way. Your second different about them demanding money impacts me about 5% of the time based on how I crafted my profile and how I select, respond and escalate with women from the site. Very few women, even on a SDD site want to feel bought and paid for. If you understand this fact and stick to mentorship/lifestyle value it won't cost much with most of the women you meet. The last difference of them getting boyfriends fast is directly correlated to how young and hot they are. The youngest, hottest chicks get boyfriends faster. Yup. That's the world we live in. But honestly if you have been the best sex they have had (which is easy as hell with the younger chicks) many of them will remain FBs for years with little headache, cost or drama. In fact, I love when they get boyfriends but keep wanting to see me. It take off all the pressure. The boyfriend gets all the headaches, demands and drama and I get good company and great sex. And based on my results over the last 5 years or so about 20% of the women I meet last at least 3 months and that doesn't even count boomerangs which can happen years later. Since I am the one calling it quits about 70% of the time, my percentages would be much higher if I didn't get bored easily. Now on to the money. I think people make WAY too big deal about the money. Quite frankly I am shocked that for under $35 CPO including flying gorgeous women in for the weekend to fuck my brains out I can meet and sleep with tons of 18-23 year old women that are sweet, interesting and fun to be with. It is the best freaking life hack out there. Anyone that doesn't think spending a few bucks to spend time with a gorgeous young woman that wants nothing more than to please you isn't thinking it all the way through. What people don't take into consideration is the time wasted. I have over an 85% first date close rate and my time to sex is usually under 1 1/2 hours. If you make $100 an hour that 1 hour coffee date just cost you $100...who cares about how much the coffee costs? I can always make more money but I cannot make more time. Which brings me to my last point, is it really game? This question makes no damn sense to me. Who the hell cares if it is game or not. Harder or easier. Does someone really want to do 100 cold approaches at a Starbucks to get laid once if they are lucky? Hey, if dudes want to knock their heads up against the wall and wonder why they have a headache, by all means go right ahead. I have tried literally every form of dating known to man and if you are a high value man nothing comes even close to the results you can get with SDD.
Diggy 2015-09-10 17:04:45
She had literally lost all grasp of the concept that normal men and women have sex because they like it, not because it’s a financial transaction. She wanted a “real relationship” with me, but still wanted regular cash. Me wanting to have sex without any money changing hands was very confusing and frustrating to her; she literally thought I was trying to “rip her off” by trying to have “sex for free.” When I tried to explain that MOST women, including very attractive ones, have sex for “free” she literally couldn’t understand it. She wasn’t the only one either. These were some of the most disturbing conversations I’ve ever had with a woman. There are definitely women like this on these sites. It’s really sad.Damn, thats the disheartening thing I've seen in awhile...
Louis 2015-09-10 17:16:07
Dawson Stone-which SDD site did you use?
Oh Yes 2015-09-10 17:30:43
@Dawson: that's a righteous report dude.
Tony 2015-09-10 17:43:40
I've thought about trying SDD sites since Dawson speaks so highly of them, but my fear is that I'm too young (I'm 24), and the girls on there who don't need to get paid are what you call Type 2. I would just try it myself, but I hate spending money unless I'm confident I'm getting something out of it and all these sites cost money (which makes sense). Any younger guys have success with this?
Dawson Stone 2015-09-10 17:44:05
@Louis SeeingArrangements.com It is by far the best in my experience.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-10 17:46:45
@Tony I will say I think 30 is probably the early cut off age but I honestly don't have experience directly or indirectly with someone that age. I have coached a lot of guys in their 40s and 50s that have crushed it. With that said you could position yourself as being "Bill Gates before he was Bill Gates." Just a thought. Or even better you could find a sugarmama. 😉
Dawson Stone 2015-09-10 18:03:02
@Louis SeekingArrangements.com Sorry for the typo.
Blackdragon 2015-09-10 18:08:15
I have three current OLTRs I met from SDD that cost me zero.You can't have three OLTRs. You have three MLTRs. Your third one you only see once every 4-6 weeks doesn't count (that's not an MLTR), so now you're down to two MLTRs. But if you're going to say that SDD is a great way to make long-term zero-cost relationships (and I'm not sure that's what you're contending), you need to be very specific with your numbers. So if you're aren't saying this, then never mind, but if you are, then please answer the following: 1. How long have you been dating each of these two MLTRs? 2. Has it been weekly and consistent, or less often, or off-and-on? 3. How much money do you spend grand total on food, drinks, events, her travel (Uber, taxis, etc) in a typical month for the 21 year old? Be as specific as you can please. 4. How much for the 26 year old? 5. Does your $35 CPO figure apply to the first lay only or every lay with a particular woman? I have a feeling you're talking about every lay, which means you're spending way more money than me.
I disagree on both the categories of women and the percentages.Yes, this could be very different depending on the city you live in. I'm sure your city makeup is different than mine.
An arrangement can mean many things but for nearly everyone it doesn't mean marriage or a serious relationshipBut it does mean there's a constant flow of money from woman to man, and that's my issue with it. We could debate about the exact amount of this flow, but I know it's more money than I typically spend in an MLTR or FB.
It may seem counter intuitive but very little makes a woman want to screw your brains out more than you being able to guide and help her with something that is important to her. I have helped women figure out what to major in, what jobs to interview for, negotiate comp plans, helped one put a business plan together for a new start-up, figure out how to reconnect with a parent or sibling...you name it.Agree 100%. I've done this too and it really does help.
There simply isn't a better way to meet and hook up with beautiful women than SDD.Only IF you are older, and a lot of men reading this aren't, and IF you have the budget for it, and a lot of men reading this don't, and IF you don't want long-term near-zero-cost relationships, and a lot of men reading this do. (True, you could teach men to lie, but I don't teach men to lie.) But for the rest of the guys reading this, yes, I agree, it's the best way to get laid right now for that particular group of men.
The youngest, hottest chicks get boyfriends faster. Yup. That's the world we live in.No, that has nothing to do with what I said. The young, hot chicks I meet on OKC or POF or Zoosk (and have met in the past on sites like Yahoo Personals, etc) do not dump men this fast for boyfriends. There is something different about the hot, young chicks on SDD sites that cause them to dump you faster for BFs more than hot, young chicks who are not on these sites.
I think people make WAY too big deal about the money.And that is the core difference between you and me. You don't mind. I do, for the reasons I and others described in the comments above. Each to their own. If you like it, go for it!
Which brings me to my last point, is it really game? This question makes no damn sense to me. Who the hell cares if it is game or not. Harder or easier.Heh. I agree with you completely, but go post that over at the Sedfast forum or any other PUA forum and watch all the Thrill of the Hunt guys go crazy and scream at you about how you're just a horrible AFC beta teaching other men to be lazy. Again, I'm not saying this, but there's a huge segment of the PUA/manosphere who believes this strongly and screams it to the rooftops.
Does someone really want to do 100 cold approaches at a Starbucks to get laid once if they are lucky? Hey, if dudes want to knock their heads up against the wall and wonder why they have a headache, by all means go right ahead. I have tried literally every form of dating known to man and if you are a high value man nothing comes even close to the results you can get with SDD.Again, you're right and I agree 100%, but I don't agree about the spending money part (we can agree to disagree on that though) and you're forgetting that a huge segment of the male population can't do this because of age or income level.
Masterdev 2015-09-10 18:33:39
I knew Dawson would comment on this one! Actually, truth be told he kinda sold me! I have a good career path (although new to it) and now I'm thinking of getting on one of these sites. I could pull it off for sure. Got a girl with a bf's number at a bar on way home from being alpha and not letting her negs get to me then turning it around. BD I think you should listen to his comment about your sample size and come back in a few months and tell us something great!
Dawson Stone 2015-09-10 18:42:32
@BD 1. How long have you been dating each of these two MLTRs? Damn it I hate acronyms. I meant MLTRs. As I said in my comment, one since last December (so 9 months) and one for over 3 years (she was 18 and now she's 21). And to be fair the cost isn't zero...just pretty close to zero. 2. Has it been weekly and consistent, or less often, or off-and-on? The one for 9 months has been pretty consistent as weekly. The 3 year one was that way for about a year, then it wasn't and we were more like FBs, now it is again. 3. How much money do you spend grand total on food, drinks, events, her travel (Uber, taxis, etc) in given month for the 21 year old? Be as specific as you can please. The 21 year old has a decent job and a car and always drives to me. I don't pay for gas but I do supply the alcohol at my place (maybe $5-7 a night for her booze) We usually just drink, talk, have sex, watch a movie rinse and repeat. Sometimes we grab a workout. I have gotten us Chipotle a few times when we met for a "nooner." Maybe $30-40 a month if that. 4. How much for the 26 year old? I usually buy the groceries and she cooks. We maybe go out every 4th time. If you don't count the groceries (and since she cooks I don't) maybe $60 a month for her portion of a meal out. I have taken her to events but they were company events that didn't cost anything like a holiday party or a friend's birthday party. 5. Does your $35 CPO figure apply to the first lay only or every lay with a particular woman? CPO = Cost Per Orgasm not cost per first Orgasm. If I spent $90 and had sex 3 times my CPO is $30. Making my CPO with my MLTRs about $6.25 assuming 2 Os per evening spent together. Trust me I know all about the PUA/manosphere haters. Way too many misogynistic, autistics out there. I love women and treat them well.
Only IF you are older, and a lot of men reading this aren’t, and IF you have the budget for it, and a lot of men reading this don’t, and IF you don’t want long-term near-zero-cost relationships, and a lot of men reading this do.They will all eventually be older. 😉 If they don't have the budget for a $35 CPO (I did when I got my first job after college and that was almost 30 years ago) they have bigger problems. lol. And this last point is an interesting one. I could actually have many more MLTRs if I wanted. I am the one choosing to exit 90-95% of my MLTRs. Any one I see longer term is pretty near zero cost or they don't make it that far. If I am going to spend money I would rather spend it on someone new. I find that once you get past the first few dates, regardless of how I met them it plays out in the same way as if I met them any other way. If I wanted longer relationships I could have them. The only real difference is in the beginning in terms of how fast they have sex and how the power dynamic is setup. The MLTRs that I do have are really more their doing than mine because it was super important to them that we stay in each other's lives and I enjoy their company and they don't give me headaches so why not?
Parade 2015-09-10 19:14:25
I will say I think 30 is probably the early cut off age but I honestly don’t have experience directly or indirectly with someone that age.We corresponded a bit when I tried SDD about a year ago and I'm in that age range. I wouldn't go any younger than 30, it's not really believable that you've made a couple million dollars at 24. You(@Tony) could try for the other side of things, and look for a sugarmomma. I don't know how common they are, but if you're a pretty "good looking" guy at 24 I'd assume you can pull it off the same way very young guys and cougars work. That said, it's definitely doable at 30, assuming you have the $ for it. ~$60/lay isn't that expensive, and is counting the money I'm spending on the chicks that didn't go anywhere and where I spent a bit more $ as an experiment (which, if your game is better than mine, or you weren't messing with seeing how buying dinner and such works out would probably be down in the $30/lay range)
Yeah, as I was reading about your results, I was thinking “he’s either doing something very wrong, or he lives in a really bad city.”I live in SF. I'm sure I'm doing lots wrong, but the easy fixes are gone. The profile is good; I tend to get ~1 message / month passively (where the chick opens me). The generic openers you use result in basically 0 responses, and even when they do result in a response, it doesn't really go anywhere. I need to get back on that and try a few things to fix the top of the funnel, but I've been busy. The rest requires a lot more work, and it's work that I can't do without someone watching me and pointing out mistakes.
Louis 2015-09-10 19:57:56
Blackdragon 2015-09-10 19:58:54
Dawson - Good info. You're still spending a lot more than me, but you're not spending anything horrible on at least those two women.
BD I think you should listen to his comment about your sample size and come back in a few months and tell us something great!You're not wrong, but there's a problem. Your argument the exact same argument some guys make when I say that over-33 women won't put out fast. "Oh c'mon, BD! You're being too inflexible about this! You need a bigger sample size. If you go on tons and tons of first dates you'll find SOME over-33s who will put out fast!" That's true. But I don't want to spend all the time, effort, and money to go on tons and tons of first dates that go no where looking for a few exceptions to the rule. The same applies here. Yes, I am being inflexible. Sure, I could go on piles of first dates and have tons of one night stands with some hot SDD chicks, but I have zero absolutely interest in doing this these days. It's a big pain in the ass and a waste of time (for me). I already went through my recently divorced sex-crazy phase a few years ago. Today, I just want to have sex with 2-4 women on rotation and focus on my work and my Mission. The only time I bother to go get any new women is when one of the 2-4 current women drop off and I can't resurrect any LSNFTEs. Anything more than that in the woman-side of my life takes me away from my big goals. Dawson, and a lot of other guys, like having one night stands or very short term relationships with large numbers of women. That's great! If anyone else loves doing that, go do it! I'm just saying I don't like it (anymore). Like I said, I have a 100% success rate for creating long-term (average 15 months) nonmono relationships with women I have sex with twice. A good 50% of these women are FBs that cost me literally zero. Literally, zero. The other 50% are MLTRs that usually cost me near-zero. I really like that, and I see no reason to deviate from that success rate. (At least not yet; who knows what may happen in the future?) I'm not saying I'll never go on an SDD site ever again. I'm saying what I said in my post, that for me, with my specific objectives (which are admittedly not shared by all), SDD currently doesn't do the job.
Al 2015-09-10 20:56:10
She had literally lost all grasp of the concept that normal men and women have sex because they like it, not because it’s a financial transaction. She wanted a “real relationship” with me, but still wanted regular cash. Me wanting to have sex without any money changing hands was very confusing and frustrating to her; she literally thought I was trying to “rip her off” by trying to have “sex for free.” When I tried to explain that MOST women, including very attractive ones, have sex for “free” she literally couldn’t understand it. She wasn’t the only one either. These were some of the most disturbing conversations I’ve ever had with a woman. There are definitely women like this on these sites. It’s really sad.The bit in bold is what I come across often (but then I am dating an older age group). What I have only just figured (with the help of this post) is that it isn't always out and out conscious gold digging. If it is stated plainly that you ain't getting any unless money changes hands, at least you know where you stand. But there is definitely a large group of women out there who feel guilty (due to Disney SP etc) if they aren't wined and dined. They only expect this from what they see going on around them. Not only does "sex for free" diminish their income it seems to diminish them directly in their own eyes. Very odd.
Your argument the exact same argument some guys make when I say that over-33 women won’t put out fast. “Oh c’mon, BD! You’re being too inflexible about this! You need a bigger sample size. If you go on tons and tons of first dates you’ll find SOME over-33s who will put out fast!”There are lots who will, lots who won't. And the older they get, if they put out, it's the best sex you'll ever have but expect heaps of drama and entitlement. You younger folks might wonder if this is relevant. It will be when you get older. So prepare. 🙂
Yes, I am being inflexible. Sure, I could go on piles of first dates and have tons of one night stands with some hot SDD chicks, but I have zero absolutely interest in doing this these days. It’s a big pain in the ass and a waste of time (for me). I already went through my recently divorced sex-crazy phase a few years ago. Today, I just want to have sex with 2-4 women on rotation and focus on my work and my Mission. The only time I bother to go get any new women is when one of the 2-4 current women drop off and I can’t resurrect any LSNFTEs. Anything more than that in the woman-side of my life takes me away from my big goals.And a big advantage of this approach is that you tend to know these women, that they are STD free and that because you've chosen to keep them with you, by definition, they are pretty drama free. Each time you begin with a new one, you NEVER know what you're getting! 😀 Lots of sex with a few women is just so much easier than chasing tail to have lots of sex with lots of women. IMHO 🙂
Minister 2015-09-11 03:43:29
BlackDragon, if you have had 15 lays out of 3 experimental blitzes on sugar daddy sites (not even a secondary source of pussy), what is your total lays number? Personal question.
Blackdragon 2015-09-11 09:31:03
there is definitely a large group of women out there who feel guilty (due to Disney SP etc) if they aren’t wined and dined. They only expect this from what they see going on around them. Not only does “sex for free” diminish their income it seems to diminish them directly in their own eyes.Yes. Yet another reason I don't cold approach any women over age 33. This "pay me money so I'll allow you to make me feel good" concept is so insulting.
what is your total lays number?Three questions I will never answer publicly: 1. How many women have you fucked? 2. How much money do you make? 3. How much money are you worth? Answering any of those questions will force me to spend time dealing with haters and nitpickers for the next ten years. (Learned this from watching other gurus.) I've had sex with a large amount of women but not nearly as much as hardcore one-night-stand PUAs. I don't teach guys how to fuck lots of girls. I teach them how to maintain several on rotation, and have sex with new women fast when needed. Quantity has never been my goal, nor ever will be.
7darktriad3 2015-09-11 12:02:47
Well I'll be damned. Never even thought of this before but having read what Mr.Stone had to say I thought I'd have to check it out. Now correct me if I'm wrong here or not, but, damn this is a site just for type 2's!!! Right?! Like, no need to sift through the chaff on POF anymore?! I am of the same mind as dawson, £30 means jack shit when I'm saving so much of my precious time. I feel like I've just gone through a revelation. Like seriously any girl under 25 is simply a type 2 or the curious type 3? Right?
APastClient 2015-09-11 12:19:23
Keep trying to post a lengthy comment here, but deleted it because it was a formatting mess. Thought blockquote tags were allowed in the comments?
7darktriad3 2015-09-11 12:47:51
I read what you had to say. It was interesting to me. It seems that maybe you can only have success on these sites if you have the ability to score off OKcupid/POF too. Something I've found fairly impossible
7darktriad3 2015-09-11 13:02:54
Also Caleb, having just googled SA as I can't believe I've never come across it before, it seems the creator has now launched a new site...www.openminded.com You never know, it might be the next best thing. Let's hope it catches on.
APastClient 2015-09-11 13:16:35
Ah, I see .. I overlooked the editor bar right above here. Ha.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-11 13:27:22
@7DarkTriad3 Yes it is mostly Type 2 and some Type 3 women although in my experience many more VYW will be totally find with hooking up with and even dating a much older guy. It is a MUCH higher percentage that anyone would ever guess assuming the older guy has certain qualities.
APastClient 2015-09-11 13:29:41
Very interesting post. Both yours and Dawson’s level of successful results have been unreproducible for me, despite over a year of trying. I’d love to know what Blackdragon strategy you used on your “successful” experiments. Because every time I try to do this without agreeing to pay an “allowance” it ends up something like this (these are all texts from girls I’ve met in person and seemingly hit it off with … not conversations on the website):
It’s not going to work then. The whole purpose of the seeking arrangements is for women to get help with an allowance. You should read a little bit into the site further.Well, frankly she’s got a point. That is what entices most women to sign up. Even the ones who say they are just looking for mentorship or love older guys, etc, and list their expectations as “negotiable” turn out to expect money, in my experience. or
No allowance at all? Wow I didn’t know that I’m sorry. I met you on SA though …or
Filling out your profile you have to choose an allowance, that’s the point. You might be better off on a generic dating site honestly.or
Look, you can’t just “tend to be a generous guy” if you’re going to use seeking arrangement. It really doesn’t seem like you are trying to be a sugar daddy. I think its best if we don’t see each other again.Or my personal fav:
For the sake of honesty: there was no discussion on your part about helping me. I don’t think being an SD is appropriate for you. By date #2 it is appropriate to tell the lady what you can offer and have at least a present for her (lush flowers is fine). Something to show you’re serious and sincere about this lifestyle.Dawson’s answer seems to be super heavy sexting before even meeting them, followed by sex on the first meet that’s so awesome for them that they drop all demands for money. That’s great if you can pull it off, but his sexting dialogues are not congruent at all with my actual personality. And while I do OK with the actually sex (on the occasion I manage to get there!), apparently I don’t create such an earth-shattering experience for them that finances go out the window. So it would be cool to hear something about the Blackdragon path to success in the realm. Do you use a two-date model like you would for an OKC girl? One-date model like Dawson? Something else? I’ve gotten coaching in the past from both of you, and would consider paying for more. Sure as hell rather spend money that way than paying some chick’s “allowance”. The thought of that makes me cringe. I’m not super fit like Dawson, but I’m not fat either. You both know what I look like. Age-wise, I’m a couple of years older than Dawson. Dawson basically wrote my profile text, and helped me pick out the right pics. I’ve had some success on OKC in the past based on the BD method. But that source has pretty much dried up in the past couple of years. A couple of years ago I could get at least some workable responses on there, and work a few of them all the way through to success. Now, I get nothing there other than “fuck off, you’re old enough to be my dad”. That’s even after dialing my age back 5 years and using some of the same pictures that brought me success before. So something has changed on that site … it isn’t just me. Hence my decision to look into SA. Of course, I could probably clean up by focusing on somewhat older ladies. Not what I want though.
APastClient 2015-09-11 13:39:10
And yes, I do have "The Wand" and the couple of times I've gotten to sex without promising money, they still insisted on money after that to go forward, even though I used it on them and they seemed to really like it.
APastClient 2015-09-11 13:43:38
And also a question for Dawson. You seem to have changed your SOP somewhat. You previously told me to go ahead and message anyone who had a budget expectation less than "Moderate". And to favorite anyone with that or above, and let them contact me. In your comments above, you indicate you don't message anyone who doesn't say "negotiable". And if contacted by a girl with something else, you bring up the topic right away and let them "convince you". But previously, you indicated to me that you NEVER bring this subject up until they do. So what's changed?
Dawson Stone 2015-09-11 13:52:40
@APastClient Yes I remember you. This goes to the point that regardless of any approach there are factors that simply matter. Any one that tells you and system or approach is fool proof or will work for everyone is simply lying. I am upfront and will tell you that my approach will not work for everyone. The difference in BDs results and mine (I have 90% that result in 2 or more dates) show that your-milage-may-vary. No matter what else is true these are the most important things to a woman regardless of her age: - Charm - Physical attractiveness - Wisdom - Success This is why part of the reason I think it is funny when PUAs say using SDD isn't game because no matter how you slice it you still have to meet the women and convince them to sleep with you. If you come across at creepy or weird that simply isn't going to happen. As any of you know that read my stuff I don't consider what I do game. I am authentic with the women I see. The reason they respond to me is at least in part because I am genuine and I make them feel safe. Not to sound cliche but you need to get into a woman's head before you can get into her pants. If you don't have the interpersonal skills at some level it is going to be hard to have a lot of success. Much of it can be learned but it does take time. To be really helpful I would have to watch and hear you on an actual date and then I could diagnose it more easily.
APastClient 2015-09-11 13:57:44
Well, I've had enough success in general (not necessarily on SA) over the past few years to convince me I can't be all that "creepy and weird". And I do have interpersonal skills. And I do have the attributes you list, although possibly not in the same measure as you 😉
Dawson Stone 2015-09-11 14:03:37
@APastClient In terms of only contacting women that say "negotiable" I used to also include (and still in some rare cases I do still if they are stunning) women that listed "minimal" but to narrow the funnel I don't do that any more. To clarify, when a women lists "substantial" or "high" which is like $10,000+ per month and she contacts me I now use a two message tactic. I first thank her for her interest and tell her I think she is lovely or whatever. When she messages me back I then say this, "Hey I just noticed that your profile says you are looking for $120,000 a year (I just annualize the number to make it look even more ridiculous) in allowance. If that's right we probably aren't a great match. But you are a lovely women and I am sure you will find what you are looking for." About 2/3 backpedal immediately and say something to the effect of "Oh shit, that was a mistake and I didn't know how to change it" or "I only put that up to keep the riff raff away. You're cute so don't worry about it." To be fair I still probably only close maybe 5% that start out this way because even if I can more them off $ to some extent in general their gold digger tendencies are too much trouble to bother.
APastClient 2015-09-11 14:09:13
Interestingly enough, I just recently tried something similar with a "substantial" that contacted me and it worked. May be on my way to my first "no allowance" type success with her. But I didn't mention her before because she's a little older and not quite the quality I'm looking for. Maybe a 7.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-11 14:12:21
@APastClient I am not saying you are creepy and weird. You aren't. I am saying someone can come across that way. They other issue I have seen with older guys is either: a) they try to hard to act young and hip (which they aren't) or b) they come across as old and boring Again, I am not saying you are either of these. I am just saying there are lots of things that can go wrong and it is hard to diagnose without seeing you in action. The one huge difference and I know you weren't comfortable with was the very, very strong sexual escalation I do before I meet them. They have already put me into the fun guy/sex bucket before they meet me. I have a 21 yo, gorgeous 6' tall (I do love long legs) blonde that is driving 1 1/2 hours to catch a 4-hour megabus to come screw my brains out for the weekend. We have talked on the phone for about 30 mins and I have texted her a bunch of times. If you don't sexually escalate before meeting it makes it a) harder to close and b) easier for them to put you into the provider bucket. The other factor in the sexual escalation before meeting that is key is they become emotionally invested in wanting to fuck you. Perhaps it is because I am talking about sex they either don't think about the monetary side of things or it makes it harder for them to do so because juxtaposed so closely to the sex talk it makes them feel bought and paid for. But that's just a guess on my part.
APastClient 2015-09-11 14:16:13
Well, fair enough. And that's how I summarized your tactic in my post above. And you're right .... I'm not comfortable being that guy ... maybe because I don't really believe I'm such a sex god that I could deliver on that kind of talk even if I could force myself to do it. So I'm interested in hearing if BD has gotten to success using a different method.
Culum Struan 2015-09-11 17:09:19
BD, long time reader and buyer of your online dating books, first time commenter. I have a lot of experience and bangs from SD sites in the last couple of years and wanted to comment. I have also done some time on regular dating sites (using a lot of your advice, but tweaked to my personal circs), but I got sick of the low response rates. I prefer sugar daddy sites by miles, but they're not perfect. On OKC and POF you spend a lot of time sending initial messages to girls who don't reply or go ghost after 1 message. On SD sites, the girls are way hotter AND you get way more responses. The downside is filtering out the hard core gold diggers - that takes a lot of effort in its own way but I'd rather do that than spend the same time emailing a couple dozen more girls on POF (for one thing, a fair number of girls who start off thinking about money will change their minds and bang you for free if they like you). As a side note, I'm actually winding up my sugar daddy dating adventures now (two years in) because it's now just a well-worn system for getting laid. Not with everyone I meet, but I bang most of the women I meet and I'm not growing in my Game skills anymore - it's a crutch. Here's the key insight: you DO NOT HAVE TO SPEND MONEY on girls on SD sites (perhaps marginally more than normal sites). Other than the "hardcore" gold diggers (your Category 1 above, who I can spot a mile off and filter before meeting), the other type of girls are looking more for exciting, successful (usually older) guys who can show them a lifestyle they wouldn't otherwise experience - NOT money (although they will accept if you give them cash). I have NEVER paid cash, or bought gifts or taken a girl shopping from an SD site and I have somewhere between 10-20 lays from SD sites in the last two years, plus a lot more makeouts etc (the number should really be higher but my escalation/closing skills were much worse in 2013 and I lost a lot of easy opportunities - nothing to do with the girl). In fact my profile EXPLICITLY says "Don't expect me to give you cash - I'm not looking for a prostitute - I want a fun girl to date casually". It does a good job of filtering out a lot of the time wasting gold diggers (although a few still try their luck). You don't need to give them money, but you DO need to be able to fit that "image" of a successful older guy in her head. This is my main advantage - I'm mid-30s, so old enough to be "older" and experienced, but not really into "my dad" territory even for younger girls. And I genuinely have a high-profile job and make a good income and wear a suit and stay in nice hotels when I travel for work (a lot) and go to nice bars. This is actually my life, not something I do to impress girls. I take all my dates (SD, POF/OKC, or in person meets) to the same 1-2 nice bars (in my home town) or a nice hotel bar when travelling. And I'm not cheap - I'll buy them drinks, and if they ask and it's not outrageous (eg, I'm not paying for a cab to the next city) I'll give them cab fare. Dinner only if they bang me (after the bang). No cash, no gifts, no shopping. $100-200?? That's insane - I never get to that point. I don't count the cost of my suit, or the cost of the nice hotel I stay in when travelling (I'd pay that anyway, or my employer would, as it is for work). Not counting that, I'd say my average costs per DATE (usually a first date bang, especially when travelling and hotel room logistics are good..sometimes 2nd date bang) are $10-35. I'm travelling now and had two new SD bangs in the last two nights. First one I spent $5 on her for one drink she didn't even finish before I had her naked in my hotel room. Didn't stay for dinner and drove home herself. Second one was about $10 for two drinks before she was naked in my hotel room. Total cost about $35-40 because I took her for a cheap dinner post-bang and also gave her cab fare. Look, guys - women are women whether they are on SD sites, POF, or real life. Exactly the same game works on them anywhere. If you're an attractive guy with Game, they will want to bang you - cash or no cash. The only trick on SD sites is cutting through the "sugar" entitlement and reframing it as something closer to a traditional date (it's actually easier on SD sites to explain you don't want a relationship). You want her to see you as a man, not a customer/walking wallet. Not that different to gaming strippers (who are much harder). PS - I don't see a major correlation between SD sites and having longer-term casual relationships. I've had girls for months from SD sites, but the majority are only a few meets (which is fine for me - I'm more of a TOTH guy plus most of them aren't good enough in bed to keep around). Occasionally you DO get a girl who vanishes after 1/2 meets because she DOES want cash but when she actually met me, she got turned on and horny and slept with me but then she regrets it the next day (because she didn't make any money out of me) and will then either explicitly or implicitly refuse to meet me again unless I pay. Doesn't happen that often, but when it does I just shrug and move to the next girl - I'm usually texting about ten.
Culum Struan 2015-09-11 17:10:37
Oh sorry - I'm just looking through the comments now and I see Dawson Stone (Dude - what happened to your blog? I really enjoy reading it) is making some good points on this.
APastClient 2015-09-11 17:19:48
Lol ... apparently everyone has this wired except me. I was also wondering about Dawson's blog ... he resurrected it briefly earlier this year, and then stopped again.
Blackdragon 2015-09-11 18:17:35
I’m interested in hearing if BD has gotten to success using a different method.Not sure what you're asking. Like Dawson, I've found that "negotiable" or "substantial" or whatever is completely meaningless. I had sex with several women who clearly said "substantial" without any problems.
You don’t need to give them money, but you DO need to be able to fit that “image” of a successful older guy in her head.Correct. Again though, that's not my complaint about SDD.
I’ve had girls for months from SD sites, but the majority are only a few meetsCorrect, that's my issue with it. For me with normal online game, it's the exactly the opposite: the vast majority, i.e. 100% of the two-lay ones, are long-term relationships. The minority aren't. I think your women who lasted longer (like Dawson's two) are the result of putting in a huge sample size and fucking tons of chicks. (Which is fun for you, like you said, but tedious to me.)
APastClient 2015-09-11 18:24:36
What I'm asking is, for the successful experiments where you didn't actually pay the girl any money, did you use some variant of your two-date model (like you use on OKC girls) ... or did you do something more like Dawson's one date model (same night close) .... with heavy sexting in preparation, like he does? Or did you do something else entirely?
APastClient 2015-09-11 18:39:20
You don’t need to give them money, but you DO need to be able to fit that “image” of a successful older guy in her head. This is my main advantage – I’m mid-30s, so old enough to be “older” and experienced, but not really into “my dad” territory even for younger girls. And I genuinely have a high-profile job and make a good income and wear a suit and stay in nice hotels when I travel for work (a lot) and go to nice bars.So Colum ... how exactly do you insert that image into her head? I have a good income and am successful enough, but it's not like I'm going to show her my tax returns, or brag about how high profile my job is. Do you wear your suit when you go to meet her for the first time? I can see where meeting in a nice bar (I do this), or taking her to a nice apartment or hotel room might help in this regard, but what else?
Blackdragon 2015-09-11 18:46:21
What I’m asking is, for the successful experiments where you didn’t actually pay the girl any money, did you use some variant of your two-date model (like you use on OKC girls) … or did you do something more like Dawson’s one date model (same night close) …. with heavy sexting in preparation, like he does? Or did you do something else entirely?I did standard Blackdragon System, as always. Two date model. Very sexual vibe on first date, just one hour, then meet at my place for second date and had sex. I didn't deviate my model at all though there were 2 or 3 women I did have sex with on the first date. BD system works, including for SDD. (For getting laid anyway; getting a long-term relationship from SDD is a different story).
APastClient 2015-09-11 18:51:14
I did standard Blackdragon System, as always.Ok. And at what point did you discuss how things would be in terms of the "arrangement"? Did they bring it up first, or did you, or did it just not come up? Was it before or after sex? Because at some point in the process you have to explain to them that they're not going to get an "allowance", and that's usually where the problems start for me. In my experience, no matter how well we got along on date 1, I get asked this before I can get to sex on date 2. You did not have that issue?
Parade 2015-09-11 20:34:19
Client, you need to escalate sexually more. She's going to ask for $ if you don't get her turned on and horny for you. She'll probably ask for $ anyway, but she'll be fine to go along without it in most cases if she's attracted to you / turned on by you. When I messed around with it I had the situation where she asked for $ up front, or when I was on a date with her, but she learned pretty quick that I wasn't going to be paying her. I never ran into her saying "maybe you don't understand what..." If you're running into that consistently, they're not putting you into the "fun guy" / "sex" bucket.
Ranks22 2015-09-12 03:46:05
Wow I'm loving this topic, and the back and forth from BD and Dawson, I've learned a heck of a lot from both guys. However a lot of the time the disagreements are splitting hairs. Its really about what works for you, the end truly does justify the means ie banging young hot chicks. If you understand that women have a dual mating strategy, them having a beta boyfriend is no skin off your noes if you know how to sell yourself as the Alpha Player who brings value to the table in terms of life experience, thats golddust to young hot women.
Ranks22 2015-09-12 04:03:33
Also getting these chicks on Skype/Facetime before meeting them offline solves the problem of fishing out any catfish.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-09-12 06:17:52
I don't think it's even possible to get model quality 9+/10 20's women for more than a 'lucky' (and probably drunk or drug fueled) ONS in cities like Sydney, Miami, LA, and San Diego etc. without either dropping coin or offering cocaine. Quite simply because there are taller, better looking, more buff, higher status, better connected guys offering them just that. You might have a shot with younger girls who have just arrived and don't know their true 'value' yet in the market or girls that are not on the dating sites and meeting them through social circles, work, University or alike, but other than that, I don't see it. I've seen so many of these hotter girls on Tinder or the dating sites (many of whom I've matched with or corresponded with) that are ALSO on SA. So I'm offering to take them out for drinks on Tinder or a dating site (and they've matched or responded so I know they're attracted to me), but some guy who she might be just as physically attracted to on SA is offering them a fancy dinner + gifts + cash. How do you compete with that!? and I'm a good looking, wealthy, intelligent younger guy myself. The only way to compete is to match the market, so if you want to play the game with these women in these sort of cities there's a cover charge. There's some young, good looking guy here offering them $1000 a night. Way to drive up the market rate buddy. What we're seeing is these girls shunning relationships in their 20's, and turning to hook-ups on their terms, when they feel like it. So there's always some tall, 10/10 male model looking guy with perfect logistics who's nearby to use for sex whenever she feels like it (on her terms mind you) so why would she hook up with anything less UNLESS there's an added incentive (money, gifts or cocaine). So these 10/10 looks guys do get it handed to them and might have several hotties who basically booty call them, although they are genetically blessed and working very hard to maintain their physiques and looks, so it's not a free lunch for them either. So if I want to hook up with 7's and the odd 8 if I'm lucky there's tinder, if I want something ongoing with a 20's 9+, SD game is the only game in town that works in these kind of markets if you're anything less than a male model, no matter how perfect your online dating pics and profile are.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-12 07:12:31
@WolfOfGeorgeStreet If you are using a standard approach with younger women you would normally be right. There are three things that a younger guy will not or cannot give a younger woman: 1. Amazing, dominating sex 2. Wisdom 3. Mentorship By being an interesting mix of wise/interesting and over-the-top sexually dominant (which a huge percentage of women want but will rarely ask for). Probably close to 70% of the women I meet have already agreed to have sex with me before we have met. Understanding the most orgasms she has ever had in a sex session and guaranteeing to at least double it. Asking if she has ever squirted and promising to help make that happen. Then maybe asking them if they believe in free will or not? Do they think romantic love is a good basis for a relationship? Ask them if they really want to find a guy to be totally committed to them and then explaining to them why they don't. Can a 23 year old guy give them advice on what to major in college and why? Or how to find her first job after college? Or how to reconnect with her estranged father? Fuck no. But I can. In fact, not only can't he help with any of that but the guy probably doesn't have his shit together and chicks hate that. If a women is attracted to you and you are the best sex she has ever had (being better in bed than the 23 year old greek Adonis is easy) and you provide wisdom and insight in her life and also can make her life better (through wisdom and guidance, not money) they will often stay around for as long as you want them around. Because I fly women in from all over the country and Canada as well as travel for business a lot I have deep experience with women from every single major US city in the country. There are only 3 cities where it is significantly more difficult to accomplish what I do: 1) NYC 2) LA 3) Las Vegas. You can still do it but it is significantly more difficult, requires a bit higher CPO and fewer women will stick around and they will stick around for a shorter period of time. If it is any other city, its just an excuse. Toronto is supposed to be notoriously hard to meet women and I have had three different, fantastic women from Toronto just in the last three years that I saw for over 6 months each that were all between an 8 - 9 by anyone's standards. You are right that if you try to be the same as a 23 year old guy you are either going to lose or it is gonna cost you in money or drugs. But if you can change their perspective and be all the things they want they could never get from a guy their age AND the same things they see as a pain in the ass about the younger guy it is a whole different ball game. I can't tell you how many women I have dated that after things have ended between us have said to me, "I am only dating older guys now." To all you older guys out there, you're welcome! 😉 A quick comment about "guys driving up the market rate." I have had numerous (certainly over a dozen or so) women that had a pervious SD that showered them with money and gifts. Got cars. Crazy shit. By following the above I had no issue. It does make it a little harder but not much harder. As I said previously, if you understand that most women don't want to feel bought and paid for you can often get around the issue.
Korg 2015-09-12 07:45:08
"are not quite as STD-ridden as a professional prostitute might be okay in your case." You falling for SP on prostitutes? Bad dragon! Bad!
JJ Roberts 2015-09-12 07:53:49
SDD sites are just another form of sex work To be honest you could replicate your success rate just by paying to have sex with hookers, giving them good sex and offering to socialise outside of work.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-12 08:02:27
@JJ Roberts You comment reveals your ignorance. Major difference is I AM NOT PAYING THEM. That, my friend, is the whole point. The other major difference is there is a big difference between a hooker that has sex with dozens of guys a week so let's round down and call it 500 guys a year and a woman that has sex with one guy. If this "nuance" is lost on you I don't know what to tell you. You could not replicate this with a hooker. I have had a few strippers before (close enough) and they never stay in rotation. It's impossible because their connection with men and money is simply too strong. That isn't a problem with the women on SDD sites proving my point. And since we are on the topic of paying for sex, let's talk about marriage. When a successful guy gets married he has basically agreed to give half of his shit to his wife when/if things don't work out in exchange for steady sex. Only the joke is on him. His steady sex is out the window before the ink is dry on the marriage CONTRACT. Go ahead and calculate the CPO on that...it's insane. There is a financial component to all relationships. I am up front that I won't be anyone's ATM, we enjoy each other for as long as it makes us both happy, we both benefit from the relationship, we move on. Not that complicated.
Parade 2015-09-12 09:24:00
1) NYC 2) LA 3) Las Vegas.NYC might be harder for SDD, but it's *much* easier for regular online game / tinder.
Blackdragon 2015-09-12 09:58:22
In my experience, no matter how well we got along on date 1, I get asked this before I can get to sex on date 2. You did not have that issue?Yes, I usually had that issue. Sometimes I was able to bypass it, sometimes not. - If I didn't have that issue, I would proceed. (Win.) - If I did have that issue, I would attempt to blow it off. Ex: "I'd rather not discuss that right now. We can talk about that if we move forward." (Sometimes worked, sometimes didn't.) - If it didn't work, on the experiments where I allowed myself to spend money, I would negotiate that number down to as low as humanly possible. (Sometimes worked, sometimes didn't.) I will say that as SDD moves through the five tech phases of effectiveness, as time goes on it's going to get harder to do this, and the women will become less and less attractive. Getting laid for free from SDD was WAY easier two years ago, and it will be WAY harder two years from now. (And then someone will invent something else that will be easy and exciting.)
You falling for SP on prostitutes? Bad dragon! Bad!No. As I already said above, issue is regional. There are some parts of the world where hookers are relatively clean and safe. There are others (including within the US) where you don't want to touch a hooker with a 10 foot pole unless you want as least Chlamydia.
Foundation 2015-09-12 10:59:50
I've been waiting for a post on this. After messing around with Tinder, POF and OKC for a while I found it took an incredible amount of my time for little results, and poor quality. This is probably due to the fact that I was 'out of the game' for nearly two decades (I got married in my early 20s), and was never really that good at it to begin with. SDD sites have allowed me to meet with many young, attractive women, most of which have been interesting and fun to be around. The good response rate, and the fact that most of them are eager to meet, allows me to gain experience much faster than beating my head against the wall on the other sites.
Kryptokate 2015-09-12 13:19:11
Very interesting. I can see how SD sites that allow women to bring out their inner prostitute without having to officially be one, admit to themselves that that's what they are, or get caught would be highly desirable for young women strapped for cash. All my single mother friends want to go on there but frankly they're not young or good looking enough that I can imagine any guy would be willing to offer them much, unless he was very unattractive himself. But I suppose once they all start signing up it'll be BD's "stage 5". One thing that surprises me is that women are willing to put their profiles up there publicly and potentially get caught by people they know...anyone who's registered can see them right? Or do they just post shots of their body and then only show their faces once you match with them and start talking one on one? I can't imagine them risking having a potential boyfriend or their dad catch them on a site like that. I imagine they all lie to their friends and claim they get cash and prizes merely for chatting and going on dates, and brag that they don't even need to bang the guys even though that's what they're doing. I can see why Dawson gets away with not paying and that's bc of his extreme sexual escalation/dominance (plus he's in shape). Basically what he is offering is an opportunity for a girl to try REALLY DIRTY sex (I've seen his blog) without any repercussions because no one in her social circle will ever know. The fact that he's out of town and not in her age bracket and thus entirely removed from any overlap with her social circle makes this much more desirable. Plus he's guaranteeing it will be good, and if you're a chick that's actually very hard to find. I highly doubt that they care at all about the supposed wisdom and mentorship he offers...talking about that shit with them is effective for him bc it reassures the girls that he's not a jerk, views them as multidimensional humans, and doesn't judge them for all the dirty sexual stuff they're doing. I don't think wisdom and mentorship is going to matter at all absent the dirty taboo secret sex, unless he's actually helping them to get a real job, which is an obvious direct benefit. That's pretty much the holy grail for a woman if she's going to go for a pure sexual experience: taboo-busting, dirty, animalistic but good sex + a guy that will never call them out, tell anyone, judge them, or treat them as "lesser" because of it. If you're not offering this but are just an average older dude offering regular sex there's no incentive whatsoever for the woman so of course she will want payment. Why would she have regular sex with a guy her dad's age when she could do that with a 10 her own age, like GeorgeofWallStreet said. You have to offer *some* value.
Culum Struan 2015-09-12 13:25:15
Okay, have read the comments now - mostly agree with Dawson's posts. Some general comments: 1. Anyone who wants to learn more about SD game, read the "Seeking Arrangement game" thread on RooshV's forum (rooshvforum.com) - think it's in the Newbie Game section. It's like 50 pages but has a huge amount of info and experiences. That site is kind of manosphere/misogynist central, so you need to be a bit careful about taking advice there (one of the things I like so much about BD's blog is that you don't see that kind of attitude to women). But in particular, read the posts of a guy called "Hotwheels" and a few others who have actual experiences of sugar daddy dating. 2. I don't exactly follow what they suggest on there - I am extremely firm in my profile about making it clear I don't pay, while most guys there suggest basically leading on the girls with hints about what she might get and getting her to give you a free sample. That can definitely work - it's just not my personal style. 3.BD/Dawson - can you say more about the mentorship aspect of your relationship with younger girls? Most of mine have been such short interactions that I've not done much of that, but it's just starting (I've been giving one 19 year old girl tips on being a college freshman, and agreed to talk to a friend of hers about getting a job in my industry etc). 4. Money - I don't give a damn about spending what I can afford. I don't believe in rigid rules and have often spent quite a lot of money (for example to set up logistics right or something). But I DO care about being with girls who aren't with me for me or want to bang me for my money. Being with me because they want a successful guy who has it together and want to come along for the ride is fine. But when it gets more explicitly transactional - no thanks. To THAT end, I am very careful about setting my boundaries. It's like saying a beautiful girl doesn't mind being with a guy who likes her because she's beautiful - but she doesn't want to feel ONLY like a hole (or as if she was bought and paid for). I don't want to buy her. 5. Similar sort of thing with whether it is Game. It's kind of a meaningless question. By definition the process of seducing a woman IS Game. Whether you call it Game or not, whether you apply it consciously or not - it's still Game. Your car runs on an internal combustion engine. That's true whether or not you understand how an engine works or not. And it's true whether you call the engine an "iceberg" instead. 6. @WolfOfGeorgeStreet: You are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Women are not men. Women do not value the same thing men do and certainly not the same priorities. Sure, looks help, but it's *much* less important to a woman than charm and personality and social status and dominance. To put it another way - women respond to how you make them FEEL. A charming, socially confident, strong minded guy who makes a girl feel strong emotions is more unusual and worth much more to her than another gym-toned six-pack 23 year old obsessed with getting his body fat from 9% to 8%. Obviously looks dominate on Tinder et al because that's the only thing they have to judge you on. Looks are (slightly) less important on regular dating sites, because your profile is (a bit) more important. In real life, personality is by far the most important thing and so on (Money is a slightly different issue: it's useful for ACCESS to high-end social circles, and it's useful to the extent that it denotes status - but money in itself is not an aphrodisiac except to outright gold diggers, and even they aren't really turned on by it - they just want security).
Culum Struan 2015-09-12 18:38:56
@APastClient - some of your posts remind me of where I was about two years ago. Some thoughts: 1. The most important thing I learned in two years about SD dating (well, it's true in all kinds of dating) is that you need to set your frame and your expectations and stick with it and not be moved. It doesn't actually matter whether you want to spend $0 on a woman or how much I spend, or pay for women to fly to you like Dawson. But they must be YOUR values and you cannot let yourself be swayed. 2. I never actually paid a woman or gave gifts, but very early on, I made some mistakes with sugar dates. First, I didn't filter out a couple of obvious gold diggers. Then I made the mistake of breaking my own rules with them (in one case I paid for her to visit me from another city, in another, even though I initially said no, she convinced me to pay for the drinks she'd had all afternoon in a fancy hotel - where I came later to meet her - I wasn't late). Neither of those things is bad in itself, and I could afford it, but it is deeply, deeply unattractive and counterproductive to give way like that. Unsurprisingly, those were two of my worst dates - absolutely zero chemistry and not much fun, to say nothing of actually getting a kiss or sex. 3. One thing that really stood out for me from the texts you posted - you told one of these girls that "I'm a generous guy BUT I don't give an allowance" or similar (or it's on your profile). This is a MASSIVE mistake. Totally the wrong frame to set. You can't be wishy-washy - it's weak and unattractive. Either go all out and say something like how you're a successful guy who is looking to spoil a fun girl (and prepare to be swamped by gold diggers - you'll pay through your nose but it will probably be fun) or set your boundaries clearly about not paying (or not paying cash, but gifts are okay - whatever). It doesn't matter so much what your boundaries are, but for god's sake, set them and don't budge. In your profile and in person. My first sugar profile was super-vague - all about wanting a fun girl etc - it read like a funny POF profile of a guy looking for a girlfriend. So I made the same mistake you're making now, and had a lot of pointless conversations with gold diggers and our expectations didn't match. Nowadays, I NEVER get girls talking to me about cash or allowances on a date (and I most certainly don't get anyone trying to negotiate an allowance just on the edge of the bang). They all get filtered out at the messaging stage and sometimes at the texting stage, because I am so up-front about my expectations. The worst I get now is the occasional girl who doesn't come across as a gold digger in her profile (see below) and still agrees to meet me after reading my profile with explicit expectations, AND doesn't mention anything about money/gifts/allowance/subtle hints on the date, BUT is SECRETLY wanting money. What usually happens with this type is that the date doesn't go well and I don't see them again (once in a while, it actually DOES go well and I end up banging her but she gets buyer's remorse about "giving it away for free" and don't see me again - particularly if the sex wasn't great). The other option you can try is what a lot of the guys on the RooshV Forum do (see my previous post) which is basically lead her on with vague hints but no firm promises and get her to basically give you a free taste of sex to lure you into a paying arrangement and then dump her after the bang. That works too, but is *even* more short term than what I do and doesn't suit my personality. 4. By the time you're talking to her about how much the allowance will (or won't) be, or how you'll spoil her and be "generous" but you won't give cash or whatever - you're in a business negotiation, and on her turf because you are basically negotiating for access to vagina, which she controls. At that point, you've already lost, because (assuming you don't want to be in a business relationship), you want to reframe the whole thing - you want to be the cool, successful older guy SHE wants to hang out with and experience his lifestyle. SHE should be chasing you (keep in mind that there are something like 8 women to every 1 guy on SA). This is not just about your profile - it is a fundamental bedrock attitude to your profile and all your interactions with women (and not just on sugar daddy sites). 5. You do need to set a sexual frame early. You don't have to go to hardcore sexting like Dawson but you need to make it clear in texting (my preferred option) or phone calls or whatever that you're not just friends and you have a sexual interest. I got quite good at sexting last year and provided you pick the right time (just before bedtime is ideal) it is actually not that hard to get girls really turned on and masturbating over Whatsapp etc and sending you dirty pictures and voice messages of them cumming, even if they've never met you. Even girls who don't quite go to that level will open up to really powerful sexual stuff with you if you're non-judgmental. But I stopped doing it because while it was fun, it was quite time-consuming and most importantly, because it often triggered a lot of buyer's remorse the next day and I never actually met many of those girls (I just do something similar in person now to get her horny on the date). So what I do now, is much more basic - sexual innuendo and flirting and jokes about spanking her and so on, but don't do the full on sexting. 6. BD and Dawson are great guys and I'm sure their coaching is valuable, but if you're anything like me - what you need is more experience. You have the basics, you have the principles you need to know. What will really help you now is just more experience, more and more dates and eventually you will hit it right once, almost by accident. It won't be consistent, but once you know what it feels like to have everything click and fall into place you'll know what to aim for. Maybe some coaching or whatever can help you to some extent (mainly correcting obvious mistakes and giving you some basic principles to work from - but you already have a lot of this) but it's practice and experience you need. And I speak as someone who took a Mystery Method seminar in 2006 and then private coaching from a couple of local PUAs years later. It was helpful, but the big jumps happened after that when I focussed on getting as many first dates as possible. 7. I still remember the date that changed everything for me. It was one of my earliest dates from an SD site (but it was irrelevant that it was an SD site - she just wanted a guy who had a job and wasn't borrowing her cash) and it went really well..we just clicked immediately and we were kissing and making out in an hour. Even to my less-experienced eyes, she was obviously very very turned on because she literally started rubbing up against me and trying to hump my legs, drawing glances in a quiet hotel bar (I wasn't staying there). I had to end the date because I genuinely had plans to meet friends. As we stood up and put on our coats, I just had an inspiration..I thought "why not take her to the toilet?". It came out of nowhere and somehow I just decided to go with it and I took her hand and said "Come on". "Where are we going?". "I'm taking you somewhere to kiss you properly" (while I was walking). Went into a private booth at the toilet and she pretty much threw herself at me with lust and gave me an amazing BJ and when it was over, she was really, really pumped - she even thanked me for giving her an amazing experience - and yet it was me getting the BJ (I could have had sex with her in the toilet but had no condoms). The experience absolutely blew my mind. Once you've felt that raw desire for you from a woman - not for money, not for gifts, not as her "duty" in a relationship, but because she feels genuine desire for you - it's addictive. And once you know what is POSSIBLE, the sky's the limit. Until then I knew in theory that PUAs had done stuff like this, but until it happened to me, it wasn't part of my reality you know? 8. Oh and as for all this stuff about whether a woman puts "Negotiable", "Substantial" etc on her profile - I wouldn't overthink it. Agree with BD/Dawson that it is mostly meaningless, but I use it as a general guide and will usually only message girls who have "Negotiable", "Minimal" or sometimes "Practical". Anything above that has much higher chances of being a massive gold-digger and not worth the trouble (it's not always true - it's just a time saving tactic). I like Dawson's tip with the "Substantial" type girls though - if I wasn't winding down sugar daddy dating I'd totally try it out. 9. @Foundation - that was the biggest advantage I found of SD game for me. Even more than the quality of women, the higher response rates just meant I met more women in person and improved my real-world skills faster. Huge bonus. 10. @APastClient - how do I project the image of an older successful guy? Well, mostly it is just who I am. But you need to follow the cardinal principles - SHOW, not TELL. So do NOT talk about how much you earn or brag or anything like that. But yes, dress well and remember that women notice details. Trust me she will notice and register if you walk into a fancy hotel bar and the doorman greets you by name and the barman pours your drink without you ordering and says hello (often this is the point at which she will ask you something like "So how many girls have you brought here" - this is a GOOD sign. Never give a direct answer - just laugh it off - I usually say something like "millions"). Similarly it's okay to talk about your work (don't be boring) and work travel and stuff - just make sure you come across as matter-of-fact, not bragging or validation seeking. So, for eg she says "You look a bit tired". And you say "Yeah, I'm still jetlagged". Her: "Oh where were you?" "Oh I just got back from a work trip to Tokyo - jet lag is a killer after 30. LOL". That's fine. You starting off saying "Hey I just got back from Tokyo..it was great, I stayed in this amazing hotel Bill Murray stayed in in Lost in Translation" - NOT so great. See what I mean? There are also some nuances to this. You need to be a little careful, particularly with the really young (18-21) girls that you don't overwhelm them so much with your high value that they start feeling like they're not worthy of you and wondering what you could possibly see in them. It's not true with all of them, but if you get a girl like this, no matter how hot she is, it's easy to mess up by overwhelming her and making her nervous in that environment. In that case you need to tone it down - NOT wear a suit. Take her to a dive bar, make sure you pump up all her (minor) life achievements, be self-deprecating about yours etc. It's a bit of a judgment call to assess what kind of girl fits this profile, but it is usually only the very young ones, and that too, not all of them.
Culum Struan 2015-09-12 18:40:47
@APastClient - PS, one more thing. I suggest you stop focussing so much on the younger women for now and start going for slightly older ones till you get results. Even banging older women will improve your skills and your abundance mentality and attitude, and all of that will help you with the younger girls.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-09-12 20:12:48
@Culum re. 6 Correct. But we're talking online 'game' here. I could absolutely use my money, game, charm etc. to work my way into well connected social circles and nightclubs etc. and game these women. I'm good looking and probably much younger than most of you guys myself. But I'm married and have one night a week off. It would be an absurd waste of time and quite difficult to spend my one night a week off doing that. It has to be the absolute best way to score top tier women in any city though without directly using money. Keep in mind though that alot of these guys are often bringing cocaine to the party too, which is practically ubiquitous in these top tier social circles. @Dawson I can date women off these sites without spending a dime (directly) and just doing drinks etc. I have done before. The problem is in top tier cities (NYC, LA, London, Sydney, Dubai), and you mentioned some of those. The quality tops out at 8's doing this. UNLESS you're really lucky and find a younger one who's new or something. the 9+'s (and to me a 9 is basically Victoria's Secret model quality) in top tier cities, forget it, I don't care how good looking, successful etc. you are it would be like winning the lotto, unless you're legit famous. You CAN however offer stuff upfront and then have it turn into a more normal relationship though. This is because super cool, good looking, charming, great in bed, well connected, rich alpha guys of all ages with game are offering to buy them stuff, so to even get your foot in the door you need to do the same or meet them through a well connected social circle, or work, Uni etc. otherwise you just won't get given the time of day. I'll run an experiment though, and bounce a profile around the US and see how certain cities compare and what I can get away with and what the quality is. It really comes down to what your competition is like in each city, the quality of girl you're chasing and what the SD/SB ratio's are. IOW it's exactly the same as normal dating, pure economics.
7darktriad3 2015-09-13 01:13:53
"But you need to follow the cardinal principles – SHOW, not TELL. So do NOT talk about how much you earn or brag or anything like that." I mean this comes obvious to me. But, what to do about your net worth and income figures on the site? I presume the girls can see this when they look at your profile. It's pretty vulgar to me.
Culum Struan 2015-09-13 05:04:20
@7darktriad3: I exaggerate slightly with the income/net worth figures. I genuinely make a high income, but I increase it to a nice, round number (like the kind of money I'll be making in 5 years if I do very well and get promoted etc). I don't make myself out to be a gazillionaire, and the *lifestyle* of someone with the higher (fake) income is not that different from my actual lifestyle. Most girls (especially younger ones) don't really have an idea of how much income is needed for a particular lifestyle anyway - they only care about the lifestyle, not how much you actually make, so as long as I have the lifestyle (which I do). The idea is to give them a soothing number with enough zeroes. It's similar to what Dawson said above - most girls who say they want a "Substantial" allowance don't really mean it - they're just throwing out a figure that makes them feel good "because they're worth it" or whatever. If a girl *actually* starts quizzing you on your income that's obviously a huge red flag (the worst I get is girls asking what kind of work I do - most of the time it's a perfectly innocuous question, but sometimes it feels like she's interviewing me for sugar daddy status and that's when the red flags go off. Even then I usually pass, because the kind of work I do does plausibly make the kind of money listed on my profile - I just haven't reached that level yet). Also keep in mind the demographics of SD sites - a) it's about 8 women to 1 guy (and that includes a lot of losers and fakes), so actual genuine sugar daddies who pay money are a rare and valuable commodity and can be extremely picky with women; and b) the site basically caters to successful upper-middle-class professional sugar daddies and mid-level entrepreneurs to find girls and vice versa. Genuinely rich guys (pro athletes or entrepreneurs worth more than for eg $10 million), who are the ones who can actually afford "Substantial" or "High" allowances etc, mostly don't need websites for this - their networks and people find girls for them - very few of them are actually ON websites, so these girls are pretty delusional if they think they are going snag a guy worth $500 million from these sites (it's really interesting actually - at the billionaire level, google how Tiger Woods sourced girls for his affairs, or how Eric Schmidt of Google sourced girls for his yacht, or read tagthesponsor.com to see how girls who are a league hotter than the SD website girls market themselves on Instagram and chase rich guys).
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-09-13 06:38:14
it’s really interesting actually – at the billionaire level, google how Tiger Woods sourced girls for his affairs, or how Eric Schmidt of Google sourced girls for his yacht, or read tagthesponsor.com to see how girls who are a league hotter than the SD website girls market themselves on Instagram and chase rich guysInterested in this, any links? (besides tagthesponsor, already well aware of that one). I've wondered about doing this on Instagram but at a much, much lower level, I'm not some sheikh looking at offering $20k to defecate on a girl. That said you absolutely can get the quality of girls these guys get IF you are on the youngish side, wealthy, good looking, have game and are also willing to splash some cash as an added incentive. Models, pornstars and high class escorts for cents on the dollar.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-13 06:41:48
As I write this message I have just gotten out of bed with a model 9, 6' tall women that traveled over 5 1/2 hours each way to spend one night with me. Other than dinner and her bus fare I have paid her nothing. Making my CPO about $20. I know what the fuck I am talking about. @KryptoKate I can understand your perspective but as someone that has never done the SDD you are simply wrong. First, the reason most women aren't worried about being "found out" is because women can't see other women's profiles and the men on there are the ones trying to meet them and most are married so little risk there. I have heard of a few asshole guys that threatened to "out" a chick because they didn't want to bang a guy. I actually think the risk is a small part of the thrill for many of them. And honestly a lot of them do go into it just thinking, "I will create a profile and just see what it is about."
The fact that he’s out of town and not in her age bracket and thus entirely removed from any overlap with her social circle makes this much more desirable. Plus he’s guaranteeing it will be good, and if you’re a chick that’s actually very hard to find. I highly doubt that they care at all about the supposed wisdom and mentorship he offersOnly about 20% of the women I hook up with are from out of town. The rest are local. More importantly, usually within a few meetings they start talking about having me meet their friends, invite me to some social function of theirs, etc. Yes the non-judgemental, no holds barred sex is a big factor but when a women gets mentorship and great sex from a guy she isn't at all embarrassed (yes I am her Dad's age but I don't look it is the normal comment I get) to be seen with it quickly becomes about a real "relationship" for her. The component you are missing is that almost no women is comfortable being sexually objectified (although some do exist) if she doesn't think the guy gives a shit about her. One you have made her feel like you do like and care about her as a person, she is happy and even excited to be a fuck toy for you. I CANNOT emphasize this enough. I can't tell you how many times I have had great sex with a new woman, then watched a TedTalk with her I thought she might get something out of only to have her practically "rape" me after the video was over. Like all people women want to feel cared about, respected, appreciated and valued. Once you have made her feel those ways there is almost nothing she won't do to be with you and make you happy. Ask any women this question, "How many men have you let see who you really are?" Very, very, very few have done so. I am really good at getting a women to open up about herself because I am a very open myself. I am authentic and vulnerable and they respond in kind. When I accept and even appreciate who they are as a real person it has often brought women to tears. It is about connection...can you create a deep connection with a women. Because if you can, the sky is the limit. And the mentorship is a HUGE component for these women. And I am certain of it for two reasons. 1) I have had women come back to me for advice from everything under the sun 8+ years after the last time I hooked up with them. 2) I meet the friends of many of the women I date, most of whom have never dated an older guy. Seeing how I have improved the life of their friend interpersonally, intellectually, academically and/or professionally is like an aphrodisiac for them. After things end with their friend I can't tell you how many times their friends have wanted to date me after even though previously they never were at all interested in older guys. @Culum Struan I couldn't agree with you more. Nothing beats experience in terms of figure out your rhythm and style. The guys I have coached in the dating world only (I do some general life coaching as well) that have been most successful only need me for one month or two at the most. They have all the raw materials and just need tactical assistance to come up the curve a bit faster. I learned by trial and error and part of the reason I can do it in my sleep is with well over 1,000 first dates and literally tens of thousands of texting interactions over a decade there is almost no scenario I haven't encountered a few times. Let me give you an example of the mentorship I am talking about. The 6-footer that is visiting me now is 21 and has an associates degree (she paid for everything herself and has no debt) and has a telemarketing job making $15 an hour. I was able to get her to admit she hates her job and has no clue what she wants to do. She has never told ANYONE she feels this way because she feels like she is supposed to know what she wants to do by now. At dinner I outlined an approach for her where should could take an online assessment (I have a friend that runs a company that does this so I can get them done for free...they usually cost about $1,000) that takes a few hours but does an amazing job of measuring aptitudes and interests against careers. Next I told her we would discuss the top matches and narrow it down to three. Then told her about how to source and execute informational interviews to help narrow it down to her top career. If you could have seen the look on her face. A mix of gratitude and lust. She told the waiter we didn't want dessert and could he please bring the check please. She took me home and fucked my brains out. @ WolfOfGeorgeStreet You are married and therefore very little of what I would do would apply to you. No judgement here; I don't give a fuck if you are married, but you will either need lie about being married and therefore cannot be authentic or you will be honest about it and attract a much lower caliber woman on all fronts. And my point about meeting chicks that are 9s (I don't believe 10s exist...even Adriana Lima in her prime is a 9.75 IMO) in cities like LA, NYC and Vegas was that it was harder, a bit more expensive and most importantly harder to keep them around long term. Since you are married and only have one night a week to devote to extracurricular activities I am guessing your definition of "dating" is a bit different than most people's. To those people that mentioned the RooshV content on SDD...it is terrible and replete with bad advice. There is about 1-2 pages of the 50+ that have some decent advice but it is surrounded with vitriol and hatred of women that is hard to imagine and straight up terrible advice. For instance being vague about what you are comfortable with and doing more bait-and-switch SDD is the worst approach and simply not necessary. Back to bed with my 6-footer now. I don't want to waste the hour or so I have left before she has to leave. 🙂
Lee 2015-09-13 07:55:53
I have come across some of those ladies on regular dating sites and the whole concept was intriguing to me, but I just couldn't do it. I have good enough game that with some effort I don't need to pay. however, in terms of changing online game to suit men like us, there is only one way that I see at the moment, and that is PUA or game savvy men creating their own social network sites and or dating sites. imagine men like us had a POF etc...
Blackdragon 2015-09-13 09:08:56
in terms of changing online game to suit men like us, there is only one way that I see at the moment, and that is PUA or game savvy men creating their own social network sites and or dating sites. imagine men like us had a POF etc…https://blackdragonblog.com/2014/12/04/fun-theory-perfect-online-dating-site/
Culum Struan 2015-09-13 13:29:57
1. The whole "Who is a 10" thing is subjective. Physical perfection by definition does not exist. You can have a (reasonably) objective scale up to 9, where 5 is boringly average, 6 is pleasant to look at, 7 is "cute", "pretty" or "attractive", 8 is "very attractive" and her looks are something people always comment on, and 9 is near perfect (Hollywood star/top model level). But 10? There's no such thing. A 10 is just a 9 who is someone's subjective "type" (for me I like slim brunettes). 2. Re the Roosh V thread on SD game - I was the one who mentioned it. I agree it includes a lot of terrible advice, and a lot of misogyny, which is why I included a disclaimer saying you need to be careful whose advice on that thread should be followed. That guy Hotwheels and a few others make sense, and even the experiences of the wilder guys are educational (just not to be followed). 3. @Dawson - thank you, I will start trying to incorporate that kind of help into my relationships. I think the real trick is to offer that kind of help without strings, from an alpha (non-needy) frame. Not as a sort of rapport-seeking supplicating offer, as a quid pro quo to get her to sleep with you. 4. @WolfOfGeorgeStreet - you can google for "Eric Schmidt yacht girls" or similar, or "Tiger Woods Rachel Uchitel mistresses" and get lots of links. Try these (and note the common thread): http://nymag.com/news/features/65238/ http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2010/06/tiger-woods-article-full-201006 http://blindgossip.com/?p=54763
Dawson Stone 2015-09-13 16:53:14
@Culum Struan Absolutely. In fact, making it no strings makes it that much more powerful. As I was driving the 6-footer to her bus this morning I told her I had a great time and regardless of if she wanted to hang out again I was happy to help her (and I meant it). She's a great girl and a lot of fun so why not help her if I can...takes so little of my time. She gave me a sly smile, rubbed my crotch and asked me what I was doing next weekend. Honestly, it is fun to help these girls. They need it and it is super easy to be helpful. It is a HUGE DHV and all you are doing is being a decent human being to a nice girl who fucks your brains out.
APastClient 2015-09-13 17:17:02
Hey Culum, some good stuff there, thanks! Do you have a blog or website? You sound like someone who's mind I wouldn't mind picking occasionally going forward.
Neither of those things is bad in itself, and I could afford it, but it is deeply, deeply unattractive and counterproductive to give way like that. Unsurprisingly, those were two of my worst dates – absolutely zero chemistry and not much fun, to say nothing of actually getting a kiss or sex.I find this of particular interest and it's something I've been thinking about. I really don't mind springing for dinner and drinks with a pretty girl ... I enjoy going out to eat myself, and it hardly hurts my image to be seen about town with these girls. I'm not super concerned about "CPO" per se ... but I draw the line at outright paying them money to be with me. But I have been wondering to what extent it is actually counterproductive for me to treat them to a meal or whatever this early on, and how it may be putting me into the wrong category in their minds. I don't mind spending a bit, but if it's actually holding back my progress to do so, that's a different story.
APastClient 2015-09-13 17:20:07
Agree that Roosh thread is mostly terrible .... I read a lot of stuff about guys getting burner phones, meeting at hotels, prepaid credit cards ... going to great lengths to trick the girl and then hide their identity. I'm not interested in doing any of that. That's crazy in my mind. Although I agree there are a few insightful posts over there ... you just have to wade through all the garbage to find them.
APastClient 2015-09-13 17:29:31
Seems the Blackdragon approach, where he uses the standard two-date model, has brought him some success. It is almost the polar opposite of the Dawson approach. I've been using the Blackdragon model because it feels more comfortable and congruent with my personality than the Dawson model. Maybe I need to find a way to combine elements of both.
APastClient 2015-09-13 17:35:37
One thing that really stood out for me from the texts you posted – you told one of these girls that “I’m a generous guy BUT I don’t give an allowance” or similar (or it’s on your profile). This is a MASSIVE mistake.I actually don't say it that way at first ... I use almost verbatim the line Dawson taught me, which goes like "I'm a generous guy and I'm happy to share my lifestyle with anyone I'm seeing, but I don't want anything that feels transactional". I only go there after they bring up the "arrangement question". Problem is they're almost never happy with that. It's only when they drill down further on the "allowance" thing that I tell them explicitly they're not getting such a thing from me.
Russ 2015-09-13 18:38:03
This hasn't been addressed on here, but keeping in mind Sugar Daddy dating sites are pay based if you want the ability to send out messages and aren't cheap (in Australia where I am - a 1 month membership costs $AU 70 and 6 months costs $AU 300 on Seeking Arrangement), can anyone please answer these questions : 1) If you had to use only 2 SD dating sites, which are the best 2, compared to the others. 2) If you're an older guy who's not ugly (but at the same time, isn't in the 8-10 category of good looks as Mr. Dawson is), regularly works out 7 days a week as I do, but you're not currently a successful upper-middle-class professional and you're also not either a mid-level, or a high level entrepreneur, can you still engage in Sugar Daddy online game, or is not likely to work. I don't see the point to lie and be deceitful about how wealthy and very successful I am, as it'd bite me in the ass. 3) Can any guy in North America here, who's been and is, very successful at SD online game, post : A) Either a link to their profile, or post the wording they currently use in their profile, so I can get an idea of the type of wording they use, that's not misogynistic. I ask, as most of the wording a guy would use on a normal standard dating site, isn't likely to work on a SD site. I'm not in the US, so I wouldn't be encroaching on anyone's territory. B) Info on what type of pics you put up of yourself on SD sites. Mr. Dawson is pretty ripped, so I can see how putting up a shirtless pic for him would work. C) Like do you state in your profile, what you're offering, what your expectations are with the type of girl you hope to meet and what you expect from her. Plus where do you go to, for a first meet and do you pay for it. D) If it's a mix of template and something personalised to what she's said about herself, what do you open a girl with on a SD date in an initial message. Or do you open a girl based on everything she's said about herself and/or do you humorously tease her about her pics.
APastClient 2015-09-13 21:10:13
But yes, dress well and remember that women notice details.I find the "what to wear" to a first meet question interesting, especially as it relates to conveying status. I'm in my early fifties, if that makes a difference. Perhaps it does. I'll typically go to a first meet, usually around 7PM, at an upscale bar, wearing stylish jeans and stylish/interesting button up shirt. Nothing over the top, but I shop at small boutique stores, usually with gay proprietors, who tell me honestly (I believe) what they think looks good. I'm also ultra-conscious of fit, and have a regular tailor who I visit if the shirt doesn't fit "just right". In other words, I put lots of effort into looking my best (without making it apparent that I'm putting in a lot of effort, I believe). That's my day to day walking around style, so I don't have to do anything super special for a date. I own suits (also tailored to fit as well as possible), and I could put one on if you think that would work better, but that isn't what I normally wear. Stylish but casual is my norm. I get plenty of compliments on my clothes, including from young girls in my target demographic. But IDK ... maybe putting on a suit would convey the "status thing" better. Or it could be more like "why is this guy wearing a suit at 7 PM when nobody else around here is?" I live in the same smallish city as BD (and love it here) ... kind of an informal vibe for most people most of the time. Although you do see suits around here during the business day. Opinions?
Dawson Stone 2015-09-13 21:26:57
@APastClient You are over thinking it. One of my standard text escalations to a women is: Me: "What are you going to wear for me?" Her: "What would you like me to wear for you?" Me: "Something you feel really sexy in." The same think applies to guys. You need to be comfortable and confident in how you look and what you are wearing. You want it to fit you well. If you really feel comfortable and confident in a suit and the place you are meeting the girl isn't super casual that's fine. I am usually very casual on my dates. Jeans and a button down shirt. But if I have meetings that require a sports coat and I am meeting after work then I am wearing a sports coat. I honestly don't give it any thought. Unless you are dressing like an idiot (and it sounds like you are fine) in my experience it won't make a lick of difference. What will matter is if you aren't feeling confident that will shine through and that can hurt you. I do not use how I dress to convey status. I don't drive a fancy car. I don't wear an expensive watch (unless you think an apple watch is an expensive watch). You DHV in how you carry yourself. How and what you talk about. IMO if you are focused on what you are wearing to win the day you have already lost. Fucking be yourself. THAT's what women are drawn to. They want a guy that is totally comfortable in their own skin. Women want a guy that exudes confidence without being arrogant.
APastClient 2015-09-13 21:37:39
Yes, you have told me that I overthink many times. And I'm inclined to agree that I do just that. I'm completely comfortable with what I'm wearing. The intent of my question was really to determine whether I should step out of that comfort zone and try something else.
button down shirt.What you meant to say is "button up shirt". A "button down" shirt technically refers to a button on the collar. The fact that I know this means I've become *way* too much of a style geek over the past few years!! I wasn't always this way ... Lol.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-13 21:41:30
I stand corrected...button up shirt. lol And yes you WAY over think things. IMO when you are outside your comfort zone you come across as disingenuous even if subtly. NOT a good thing with women. Like I said, be yourself.
APastClient 2015-09-13 21:53:48
Like I said, be yourself.Yup. Won't argue that. Trouble is, even at my advanced age, still trying to find my authentic self so I can get busy just "being it". But if I can have some fun sexy times along the journey (along with pursuing the thousand other things that interest me) ... well, that'll be OK. And I have had some ... just not close to as much as you, or our host, BD. Always good to have something to shoot for though.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-14 09:06:33
@Russ If you want me to take a look at your profile I would be happy to give you my thoughts. I had a client in Sydney and he was killing it using www.SeekingArrangements.com
POB 2015-09-14 09:38:37
@Dawson I just read your first comments because the thread became too long, but I'm almost sold on your arguments. Although you gotta know that you're running a very specific niche that is not feasible for most guys (financial or looks wise). To do what you're doing you must know exactly what buttons to push because you can literally spend hundreds of bucks and get zero pussy. Anyway, I agree with all of your and BD's points that it's irrelevant if it's game or not: it only matters if you're getting laid spending time and money that are comfortable TO YOU. I'm usually a half POS and half ToTh guy, but I'll stick with BD's side of the coin: paying as little as possible is better to me. I also like to game, even if I know it's costing me easy lays elsewhere. If I pay, I don't know if I did everything right or if my money did the heavy work for me. Just as a comparison to your last case, this past Saturday I spent the night with a 6' brunette (29 yo, solid 8) that I met on tinder and cost me less than U$9,00. And yes, it was our fist date. Drinks, home, sex, simple as that. Each to their own.
Culum Struan 2015-09-14 15:52:56
@APastClient 1. No, I don't have a blog or website or anything - I read this blog, Rational Male and Chateau Heartiste and I usually check the comments on all the Game related CH posts (not the politics posts). I don't like the sheer over-the-top manosphere nastiness, misogyny, racism, homophobia et al on CH, but the Game advice is good and most importantly, there's a bunch of really good guys in the comments and I've learnt a lot from them in the last couple of years. 2. Agree 100% with everything Dawson said. Won't repeat it, but beyond basic grooming, clothes are more about what you feel good in and what identity you want to project. Mostly, whether I wear a suit to a date or not depends on my personal logistics, whether I'm coming from the office etc and less to do with the girl. The only thing I will add, because it may not have been entirely clear from his post, is that when he says "you don't DHV by how you dress", he means you don't DHV by flashing money/material possessions like a $25k Rolex Submariner or Bugatti Veyron or whatever - that will only attract the gold diggers and not for the reasons you want. But clothes are a form of self-expression and are most certainly a DHV in terms of what they say about your identity - what identity are you projecting? Do your clothes enhance your identity and are they congruent with it? Do they fit you and match (showing you care about taking care of yourself)? Or do you wear clashing, shapeless clothes that sag off your body and scream "middle-aged dad" as your identity? To be honest, from your posts here, I think you've got this part sorted - don't worry about it. wear clothes that you like wearing, that fit you, and that don't scream "my dad" and that's all you need (I really don't think you need fashion advice, but for eg, watch how David Duchovny dresses in Californication, which was filmed when he was in his late 40s and early 50s - that's the kind of "feel" you want, although it obviously needs to be congruent to your personality - you could just as easily do "corporate head honcho in a suit" if that suits you better - but it's about YOUR identity and what you project, NOT what might appeal to a girl). 3. Again I'm also someone who tends to overthink things, so my biggest suggestion for you is that you need to (a) make it clear on your profile and messages what you are offering and what your boundaries are, and *ruthlessly* NEXT any girl who tries to enter a discussion about them with you (it's okay to say "No, I don't pay money" or similar - just don't waste time discussing with them); and (b) get out there and go on more dates (it doesn't really matter whether you follow the one-date model or two-date model or whatever - I do both, and it mostly depends on logistics) and as you get more experience you will understand this stuff a lot better, and you can come back here with more advanced questions. 3. One thing I would recommend is that you relax your age criteria and get out on more dates with older (30s, maybe even attractive 40s) women. It'll be a lot easier to get out on dates and they will be less demanding than younger, hotter girls (I mean in terms of an arrangement, because they know their market power is lower - you'll still have to deal with the Over-33 year old SP that BD talks about a lot on this blog). The idea is that you develop your skills and closing/escalation and setting your expectations etc with them and then move down to younger girls when you have a stronger frame and better reference experiences. Just make sure you make it brutally clear that you are not looking for a relationship because a 39 year old may have hopes of that with you when a 24 year old won't. 4. About the "I'm a generous guy, but don't want transactional" line - it will work as long as girls sense the conviction behind it. You have to BELIEVE it, and hold firm to it, because those are your values. If you are wishy washy about it and the girl feels like she can negotiate, then not only will she push the boundary, she will ALSO lose respect for you as a guy who can be pushed around. It's a lot like the girl who convinced me (above) to pay for her afternoon's drinking - I was reluctant, but by letting myself be persuaded into something I didn't want to do, I ALSO made her lose respect/attraction. All of this is a long-winded way of saying that you need to be clear on your expectations and stick to them without budging. If a girl tries to negotiate or persuade you, just stay firm and say no. Then NEXT her if she keeps doing it - there's no shortage of girls on SD sites. Do NOT enter into negotiations or start discussing what you can offer her (On a personal level, I would also avoid using the word "generous" because it is sometimes code for a guy who is willing to pay cash/gifts).
Culum Struan 2015-09-14 16:10:54
@Russ, a few points: 1. Not keen on posting my profile because I'm not happy about it being easily googleable, but I will say that it's nothing special - basically talks about my interests and personality in an amusing way with some DHVs (high-profile career, travel, humour) thrown in. It's actually almost the same between SD sites and POF/OKC (the only real difference is that I'm much less aggressive about my expectations and not wanting gold diggers on the "normal" dating site profile, for obvious reasons). 2. I just put "Negotiable" in the arrangement field and make it very clear I don't offer money or gifts in the profile, and I say I want a girl to date casually and share my lifestyle with. It filters out a LOT of gold diggers (and gets me abuse from a few who think I'm somehow cheating by being on an SD site and not willing to offer money) but I get plenty of girls who don't care. 3. I use one of several mildly provocative/funny opening lines (not necessarily sexual, but can easily be turned that way) - more about goading an emotional response out of a girl than anything else. Most girls see the funny side, but I occasionally get a dumb/no sense of humour girl who either doesn't understand or gets offended - this is a good way of identifying girls I WON'T click with. So I generally don't personalize messages and I follow (mostly - I have tweaked it quite a bit as I have gained experience) the standard Blackdragon model advice. 4. I have a picture of myself scuba diving and a couple of professionally shot (but not obviously so) pics of me in a garden (I mean it's obviously a posed photo but it's not obviously a professional photoshoot), dressed in casual well-fitting clothes. Honestly, given the crappiness of most guys on SD sites, this is not as important a factor as it is on most other dating sites (to say nothing of Tinder where it is EVERYTHING and where I do terribly, even though I'm decent looking). 5. Be careful about shirtless pics. I don't have the physique for them either (not overweight but not muscular) so I wouldn't do it anyway, but just remember you run the risk of coming across as a low-class brainless loser. It works for Dawson because of the *contrast* - no one expects a guy his age and achievements in life to look like that. If you're a 23 year old unemployed surfer on the Gold Coast covered in tattoos (or whatever) then the six pack is much less likely to help you. 6. If you're not (a) Over 30-35 and (b) at least an upper-middle class professional , then I think you will struggle with SD game. I haven't tested this of course, and maybe there's a way to make it work, but I don't see it. Like I said in my first post - you don't need to pay the girls, but (other than the outright gold-diggers/hookers who you won't be able to afford anyway) girls come to the site to date successful older guys. If you don't come across as that, why would you waste your time for such low odds on SD sites? Like I don't waste my time on Tinder because I know I don't photograph that well, and that's the only game on Tinder (although I want to experiment with different photos that project a strong identity but that's a separate topic). Find an avenue where your strengths stand out..
Culum Struan 2015-09-14 16:19:08
@APastClient - One more answer to a question I missed from my previous post, about buying girls dinner. You are on the right track about how it is putting you in the wrong category in their minds. Nothing is impossible and it IS possible to pull off buying a girl dinner (before sleeping with her), but it's GENERALLY a bad idea: 1. On the simplest level, I assume you want to get her into bed, right? Well, no one feels sexy and up for a bang after a full meal. Totally the wrong mood. 2. You want to be in the category of "fun sexy guy I have sex and fun times with" for girls. You do NOT want to be in the "beta boyfriend/provider/meal ticket/sugar daddy category". Taking a girl out for dinner BEFORE sleeping with her puts you solidly there (this can be overcome if your frame is strong and you are good at seduction, but not at your skill level, or mine). 3. She needs to EARN dinner (and your attention during dinner) with you by pleasing you and meeting your standards and expectations in a girl (this includes sex, but is not limited to it - you have to qualify her and she has to be fun to talk to, good company etc). Taking her for dinner BEFORE she has earned it sends the message that you will reward her for NOTHING and she just needs to be present for you to do stuff for her, without her making an effort to please you. The cost of the dinner and the fact that it isn't much money for you isn't that important - the FACT of the dinner is the most important thing (although obviously the more expensive the dinner, the deeper the hole you're digging).
APastClient 2015-09-14 17:22:02
The cost of the dinner and the fact that it isn’t much money for you isn’t that important – the FACT of the dinner is the most important thingYeah, I think this is a key point that I've been missing, and I'm not sure I've seen it spelled out that explicitly before. I always assumed that it was just about not wanting to spend the money. But lately I've been thinking that it goes beyond that, as you just confirmed. I'm actually working against myself. Duh.
APastClient 2015-09-14 20:35:14
Do you bother trying to meet girls that make statements like this in their profile, or do you just figure it will be a waste of time?
I'm not looking for anything sexual in particular, but let's see where things go.That's one of the milder cases. Some girls make it quite clear they're not interested in sex ... and still have high budget expectations. Go figure. So the question is do you try to blow past this, or just plain blow them off.
APastClient 2015-09-14 20:39:22
Also, what about girls who pretty much say in their profile, apart from just their budget expectation, that they're expecting payment (most of them at least hint at this) .... bother with them, or not? Stuff like this:
In exchange for great company, I just need help financially (an allowance would be the perfect gift). I'm into intimacy and connection,
Vaquero357 2015-09-14 21:47:15
@Guys who've used SD sites successfully: Any estimates on what's the lower limit of a guy's income for him to be successful on the sites? I mean, OK, a lot of it's about lifestyle and the personal charisma you project, but I'm just trying to quantify it a little. Would a guy in the sub-$100K annual income range (but not too sub) be competitive for some of the decently attractive women? Probably still sounds like an odd question, but since the traditional dating sites are getting a bit less productive, and I'm thinking mostly in terms of FBs/attractive female companions for those of us who aren't exactly wealthy but also don't lie awake nights worrying about how to pay the rent. Best, Vaquero
Parade 2015-09-14 22:42:36
Low 100k is fine, though it really depends on your lifestyle. So, to put it differently, if you have to think twice about buying her drink on the first date for $ reasons, you aren't making enough. If you have to think about whether or not an occasional $100 meal is "in the budget"/"have to save for it" (you won't have to drop 100 on a meal, but a good point of reference) , you probably won't have a good time of it.
Phero 2015-09-15 03:45:41
It's very amusing to see how defensive people get about the SDD subject. Prostitution? Does that make every girl who says "put a ring on it" a whore as well? Is having $2-3,000 a month to burn without care alpha? I'd say it's top at least top 10% Alpha because the other 90% all wish they could. As for the cost per lay/orgasm/wateva it just seems ridiculous to me. It's just like a bunch of blokes arguing over who pays less for cigarettes or beer. Who gives a fck if you saved 10 bux on beer this week and I paid 10 bux more. Never been married, so I could also brag about how much money/time/effort all you married people blew on your fiance/wife/ex and how much you will keep paying all your life. How much SDD could that have done? How much have I saved? But it still doesn't make sense arguing as it's all relative. But i do enjoy reading the actual stories and examples from all sides in which there are many lessons, for which I am thankful. Carry on.
Culum Struan 2015-09-15 04:11:59
@APastClient: 1. On the girls not looking for anything sexual: I probably would game the girl you quoted as normal because she's clearly left the door ajar, but I generally avoid girls who put out the more extreme versions of that line ("platonic only" etc). In general I think they're mostly targeted at preventing fat, bald, 65 year olds who remind the girls of their granddad trying things on - if the girl is attracted to you, of course she'll sleep with you. But I find more than enough girls don't put that kind of warning so I've never needed to try the uphill slog with girls giving that warning. No need to make things harder for myself. 2. I never message girls who say anything explicit about payment - key words like "financial help", "assistance", "allowance", "mutually beneficial" etc - basically anything explicit about wanting something material. It may be possible to do them for free, but as a time saving tactic it's not worth it for me. It's hard enough filtering out the girls who DON'T say anything explicit but secretly want money without having handle the explicit gold diggers as well. But the 8 to 1 female to male ratio means, even after all this there are plenty of girls available. 3. @Vaquero - Parade is right about the money, but I'll just say that if you're thinking about whether you make enough money to satisfy the girls, you are coming at this from the wrong mindset. You need to be thinking about whether the 21 year old girl with no life experience is going to be fun enough to spend time with YOU. Like it's fine to consider whether your overall life circumstances mean SD dating is a good bet for you - but don't go too far. To give you an analogy with looks: it's fine to consider whether you're well-groomed and reasonably presentable and wearing clothes that fit. But you don't want to start obsessing about your looks and whether the girls will like them..do you see what I mean?
Russ 2015-09-15 06:50:02
Dawson, what's your Email address. I've seen your blog, that has an Email contact box on it.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-15 10:37:05
Vaquero357 2015-09-15 23:27:20
@Parade: Thanks, you got the gist of what I was asking. That helps. I certainly can drop 100 bucks on a meal without jeopardizing this month's mortgage payment. I don't like to do it, though. @Calum: Thanks, too. Yes, I won't get obsessive about it. I just wanted to gauge whether SDD is for a "successful guy" or only a "rich guy". I'm not looking for an LTR, as much as travel/special event companions. (The older I get, the more averse I become to LTRs. Is that odd?) @Dawson: I totally get how you're getting the mentorship component to work (with the right frame of course). The technical complexity of the modern world seems easier for the Guy Brain to handle than the Woman Brain. Some of the times that women have been genuinely, genuinely grateful to me for help have been when I've given them some advice or information about cars, the kind of stuff all guys know. They are truly lost at sea in some of this stuff. I can see how help with higher level issues, like career path or starting a business can be a big deal to them. I'm thinking of a similar element in my approach, with the artistic/intellectual girl as my target market. Wise older guy I can do; hip, happy, party guy has always been beyond me. (BTW, read your website cover to cover, so to speak - you skills are way beyond me, but I've still learnt a bit. As the early PUAs would've said: "Respect.") Still waiting, of course, for Blackdragon's Alpha Male 2.0 Dating Site(TM).
Dennis 2015-09-16 12:29:52
@Dawson Stone Thanks for your excellent Posts. I have a few questions if you would be kind enough to answer. 1. I'm fit, muscular, have a six pack, still have hair(thinning), ok looking and wealthy. But I'm 62 but look younger. What do you estimate my chances are in getting 30+y/o women on SD sites? 2. Do you have a few examples of your predate sexting? Thanks
Dennis 2015-09-16 18:46:26
@BD forgot to add this to my above post. Many thanks to BD for the write up of the SD sites and his experience with same. I never considered them until now. Your experiences and the experiences of many commenters on this blog have opened up a new area for me. Many thanks again for writing about this topic. Dennis
Dawson Stone 2015-09-17 04:19:38
@Vaquero357 Much thanks for the nice compliments. Glad you enjoyed and found value in my site. I will say that I don't really think it has much to do with gender. It is actually worse with many of the early 20-somethings, late teenage guys I have come across because they are just as lost only they think it makes them look like pussies to not know what they want to do/how to do it so they pretend like they do with terrible results. And SDD is fine for "successful" guy but Calum has it right. I put the cut-off around $70K+ but he is right in that it has more to do with your attitude about money. If you have a scarcity mentality about money SDD isn't for you. And I agree with you about LTRs. As I get older they have less and less utility to me. I honestly don't get it. I do have MLTRs in my life but mostly because it is important to them. I am not a thrill of the hunt guy. If gorgeous 18 year old naked women just magically showed up in my bed I would be a very happy guy. But I just value newness over consistency. 1-3 month relationships are totally fine with me.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-17 04:46:26
@Dennis 1. I think your chances are excellent. I guess my only question for you is do you have a hard cut off at 30? Do you not have any interest in girls under 24? Believe it or not you can date them too if you want. There are challenges with women in the 30-40 range having nothing to do with your age difference. I am turning 50 and I have a 25-30 year age difference with 90% of the women I hook up with. 2. I have tons of examples. There are a few in my stories on my site. Here are a couple of links: Meet Dara Meet Kyra Meet Marie Meet Julie Enjoy
Dennis 2015-09-17 12:03:56
@Dawson Stone Many thanks for your reply and many excellent examples. I have nothing against 20+ y/o women. I guess it's my limited belief that I can't attract them because of my age number. So given that, and thanks to you, I'll open myself up to 20+ woman as well and get rid of that limited belief. Best regards, Dennis
donniedemarco 2015-09-17 14:56:33
@Dawson Thanks for sharing the additional data. Regarding your SSD profile, what's the best way to communicate that "I am happy to share my lifestyle with someone I am seeing, but I will not be anyone’s wallet."? You and BD have me mulling over this SSD thing now. It sounds like a great opportunity for an older/successful guy to get some additional ONSs going.
Culum Struan 2015-09-17 16:28:48
@Donniedemarco - seems to me that putting that exact line in your profile will do the trick. The important thing is that you stick to it - no messaging girls who obviously want something different, no waiving the rule for girls who are especially hot and rubbing up against you and turning you on on a date and talking about just how much more turned on they'll get if they got a gift, or $100 or whatever. It's HARD.
Dennis 2015-09-17 17:23:18
@Dawson Stone In the example urls you sent me, one of the women, Julie, texted you directly without you contacting her. Did you put your name and phone number in your SA profile? Thanks.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-17 17:25:12
I sent her my number in a message on seekingarrangements.com
Doubter 2015-09-20 07:20:50
Great thread guys. Really interesting. Culum.......you are killing it here. Thanks for the input. We don't have enough commenters with a realistic view and practical advice of seduction. Apastclient.........not sure where I read it but I think it's best put as.....every woman you come into contact with should feel in imminent danger of getting fucked by you. That checkout girl at the corner store......the single mom at your kid's school......a meetup "victim". You are a shark. Don't worry about how to impress them.....they pick up that vibe and then you're lost. Eye contact, kino, suggestiveness.......bold comments. Use this stuff to convey your sexual intent. Never a doubt in her mind that you intend to sleep with her. It is amazing what women will let you get away with when you are aggressive and do it with a charming grin. Unbelievable, actually. Sounds like you need to sharpen your mindset and work on exuding more confidence and masculinity. Think bad boy.
Culum Struan 2015-09-20 15:03:17
Thank you Doubter. @APastClient - Doubter is spot on with what he suggests. The only thing I will add is that the way you learn to do what he suggests (as opposed to it merely being words on a screen) is by getting lots of practice..the more dates you go and try to do it, the more you will get a "feel" for it and learn to do it instinctively. One of my key learnings for eg in the last year has been when to ignore texts from women and when to respond. I'm far from perfect, but I am really developing a "feel" for when to respond and when to let silence fill the space - but then I message so many online chicks that I've probably exchanged phone numbers and texted with 200+ women in the last year..
7darktriad3 2015-09-21 14:47:41
Not even a week of going premium, I'm snowed under with first meets! I just don't have the time for this lol Cheers guys
7darktriad3 2015-09-29 01:10:22
Just a warning note to the inexperienced guys out there. There's a LOT higher percentage of scammers/camgirls on SA than on any other dating site I've been on. It makes sense really when you gain an understanding of the demographic. One of the gilrs I've started seeing tells me that one guy she hooks up with semi regularly takes her out for a meal, they 'enjoy each others company' afterwards then he leaves her with £800. Everytime. In her own delerious words...'It's crazy'. Crazy indeed. Keep your wits about you.
Sugar Baby Dating - RichMeetBeautiful 2019-02-02 00:21:28
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XV 2019-08-26 19:02:21
I went back to SA. I was on it briefly in 2014. The site is a shell of its former self. I remember I had terrible pictures and I was inundated with emails. This time, there's been almost nothing. I can see why people say the golden years were back then.