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The Power of Beta Males
Common wisdom among the manosphere, PUAs, Alphas, and other such manly men is that beta males are complete and utter pussies who are in no way any competition for us badass Alphas. They’re so harmless that we Alphas can simply breeze past them without a second thought and nail all those hot girls that the betas only fantasize about.
-By Caleb Jones
On the other side of the coin, often there are beta male defenders or apologists who say things like, “So what if there are tons of betas out there? So what? What difference does that make to you?” The problem is that while Alpha Males are busy flexing their muscles about how badass they are, and while beta male apologists are thinking betas don’t affect them, both groups often forget that beta males are not only a threat to your success in your woman life, but they are actually one of the biggest obstacles of them all.
Those betas raise the cost of dates you go on with women and raise the amount of time and effort it takes for you to get to sex. One of those same pussy, wimpy, needy, white knight beta males you constantly make fun of is going to not only take away that super hot girl you’re now fucking, but marry her too. I don’t think you’ll be bragging about what a badass you are then.
The reality is that beta males wield vast power over woman that you as an Alpha (1.0 or 2.0) will never have. What the hell am I talking about? I shall explain.
Who Do Women Leave You For?
I have talked before about the LSNFTE, when a woman leaves you because you won’t play ball with her bullshit Disney picture of what a relationship is supposed to look like, and then quickly gets a boyfriend who happily conforms with this fairy tale, at least temporarily.
I’ve talked about exactly what to do in these scenarios, when to expect them, and how to reduce the odds of them happening as soon. But we’ve never talked about the type of guy these women dump you for. Are these guys betas or Alphas? Numerous women have LSNFTE’d me over the years. (Of course 94% come back eventually, but that’s a different topic.) Every time they do it, they dump me for a beta. Not another Alpha, but a beta. I get dumped for betas all the time. I almost never get dumped for another Alpha.
I’ve been LSNFTE’d about 40 times(?), perhaps more (sometimes multiple times by the same woman). Of all those times, just two were because a woman dumped me for an Alpha Male (1.0). The other 95% of them dumped me for a beta. Why?
This brings us to the first of the superpowers that betas have over us Alphas:
Beta Male Superpower Number 1: Beta males will cheerfully agree to things Alpha Males won’t.
Here’s the simplest example. As an Alpha 2.0, I will never ever promise a woman absolute sexual monogamy. Yet every woman I date is surrounded by literally swarms of beta males who will happily chop off their own balls by promising this. Many Alpha Male 1.0s won’t promise this either. The ones that do are lying (because they’ll promptly cheat), and most women know this, particularly those over age 25.
This means that if that hot girl really wants a guy who will genuinely promise monogamy, the beta male will win just about every time. If you’re an Alpha, you’re out, at least for a while. Yes, it is true she might be back, and/or it’s true you might be able to have sex with her while she’s cheating with you behind the beta’s back. But the point is you lost her in the first place because the beta was around, ready to promise that which you would not promise (if you’re an Alpha 2.0), or could not promise honestly (if you’re an Alpha 1.0).
Monogamy is an extreme example, so feel free to replace “monogamy” with “marriage” or “living together” or “children right now” or “move with me to X city” or “don’t have sex with me until we’ve been dating for three months” or “spend money on me” or “drive me around whenever I need to go somewhere” or “clean my house” or “make sure to comment nicely on all my Instagram pics” or “text me every day” or any other feminine demand you can think of.
As an Alpha, when you get a request or demand for this, you’ll just laugh at her. But a beta will snap to attention, salute with a “yes ma’am!” and happily obey. Who does she then pick? Him. Not you.
Beta Male Superpower Number 2: Beta males will always consent to a woman’s Disney agenda. Alpha Males can’t or won’t.
Just about every woman on Earth has a clear picture of what they want their perfect relationship to look like “someday.” Even most badass independent types fantasize about some kind of wedding or similar event, as well as some kind of long-term relationship with a Good Guy™.
The Alpha Male 2.0 shudders with a cold chill when he hears all this and says no thank you.
Some Alpha Male 1.0s laugh and say hell no.
Some other Alpha Male 1.0s want some aspects of that, but then immediately start changing major components of her Disney fantasy, forcing her to compromise on her holy of holies. She feels pressured and hurt.
The beta male? He wants ALL of that, exactly as she's described, with no changes whatsoever. He’s down for every last piece of it and can’t wait to get started. He’s just happy to be with a girl at all. The details aren’t super relevant to him.
So between these four choices (the 2.0, the anti-monogamy 1.0, the pro-monogamy 1.0, and the beta), who does she pick? It’s no contest. She picks the beta. She kicks your Alpha ass to the curb, gleefully trots off down the street with that wimpy beta male to plan their extravagant wedding, and then you get depressed and send me an email asking me how to get her back.
You’ve heard about Alpha fucks and beta bucks, and it’s true. Women fuck Alphas and marry betas. That’s all well and good, and fun to joke about on manosphere web sites, until you as the Alpha have a girl you Really Like™ who is Not Like The Rest™ dump your sorry ass and go marry a beta.
I get a lot of emails from angry or depressed jilted Alpha Males who have been dumped for a beta. Yet it’s very rare that I get an email from an Alpha complaining he got dumped for another Alpha.
Still think betas have no power over you?
Beta Male Superpower Number 3: Beta males raise the bar to entry, particularly for older, more attractive women.
You want sleep with that super sexy 36 year-old woman, so you pitch a meet where you two go to a bar and have a drink. Your plan is to just talk for an hour or so, then move to either sex or a second brief date (and then sex).
The problem is that the last five times she went out on a first date, she went out with betas. These men bought her a fancy dinner, kissed her ass all night, spent hours and hours listening to her talk, bought her all the drinks she wanted, stayed out as late as she wanted, constantly told her how smart and pretty she was, and never tried to have sex with her.
Therefore, the above scenario is now the baseline expectation for what she expects a man to do. When you suggest “go get a drink,” she’s slightly confused, cocks her head to one side, and immediately counters with something much more detailed, expensive, and time consuming. You say “bar” and she immediately suggests things like “dinner” or “go see a play” or at least a very safe, nonsexual “lunch.” If you stand your ground and stick with the “get a drink” idea, she actually gets a little offended. You're some kind of cheapass player and not a "gentleman."
Back before all these first dates with betas, she would have been happy to agree to a casual first date, and likely sex shortly thereafter. But because of years of getting her ass kissed by betas, she isn’t down for that for that any more. She can get a better deal by blowing you off and holding out for a beta who will be happy to spend $150 on her for the privilege of spending six hours of listening to her talk with zero sex.
Using their beta superpowers, these five men have raised the bar to entry to her pussy for all future men, experienced Alpha Males included. I didn't say you can't have sex with her or that it's "impossible," I said the bar to entry has been strongly raised. Thanks to them, we now have an entire population of single 30-something women on sites like Match.com who regularly get free fancy dinners and hours of male attention with zero sex required, and in many cases get offended or even upset if you don’t offer this to them.
It’s a great deal for women. It’s a mediocre deal for betas (who again are happy to have a date at all). It’s a horrible deal for you. You now have to either A) stop dating women over the age of about 33 even if you still find them attractive, or B) massively jack up the time and financial expense your dating life requires, or C) massively jack up your activity and numbers, doing needle-in-a-haystack game to find the rare exceptions to the rule. Most men over 30 choose option B. I chose option A several years ago. Both are bad.
Still think it’s “no big deal” that there are so many betas out there? Still think betas are harmless? Still think they don’t cause you any problems? Still think they have no power over your dating or relationship life? They do. Far more so than other Alpha Males. (Though to be fair, Alpha Males aren’t blameless either...)
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A B 2015-12-14 06:15:42
My current main girl introduced me to her social circle recently. They're a good group, and I can picture long-term business and social opportunities with these people (all married couples). Getting into the group would also help my daughter, who would be able to bond with some of their kids on different social outings. Looking down the road, once my main goes for a beta, what are my options with the group? I believe Outcome Independence dictates that I continue with the friendships/business connections I will have formed with this group, irrespective of her (and my) dating situations.
JRM 2015-12-14 06:44:10
This article clarifies everything I've noticed the past 4 or so years of dating. Fascinating and depressing all at the same time.
Ricardo Correia 2015-12-14 06:48:33
Well betas can marry all they want i have been an ultra needy beta all the time and relationships and cheated a lot with alpha guys before reading your blog and book and now i can say thank you blackdragon for saving my sanity my wallet and my hearth everyday i see things you describe here and in the book now im enjoying a better life.
Ronin 2015-12-14 07:19:29
The older you get, the more meaningless finding strange vagina in your bed really becomes, you get tired of it, eventually go beta, get married....been there, done that. Finding one you can lock down and keep is a 50/50 proposition at best, your mileage may vary. I got 24 really good years in that I don't regret....but the Princess you married often becomes someone you don't even recognize at 40-45 when the run up to menopause kicks in, the cycle repeats and your now Beta ass gets kicked for a Alpha/Soulmate. From my view, now 60 and single again since 56, just do what makes you happy. Women, a storm driven sea of hormones, will come and go for no logical reason, if you find one you like, enjoy the ride as long as it lasts with no regrets. If you want unconditional love get a dog, if you need to be reminded of what it's like to live with a woman get a cat. I have both and leave a window open hoping the Cat runs away.....
Bobby 2015-12-14 07:58:49
BD: Do you believe that if more and more males became alpha, this would reduce the problems you are describing in this post? It's sort of a catch 22 isn't? You would have more competition out there if more men became alpha.
CoffeeCrazed 2015-12-14 08:27:43
"...while Alpha Males are busy flexing their muscles about how badass they are..." Arguably, not a true alpha.
Ronin 2015-12-14 09:36:44
Historically beta men often went without women of their own, every man having a shot at having a wife is relatively new in the great scheme of things. In more modern times they were just a refuge of last resort. The "Better a Man than no Man at all" mantra that ruled for much of the 20th Century, constantly given as advice by mothers, grandmothers and other female relatives, especially when more desirable Alpha males were no longer calling. All bets are off now because neither Alphas or Betas are really needed for anything long term, society protects women from all sides and any accountability for their choices. The best action now is to be the best man you can be, always cover your ass and be prepared to walk at any time.
Spiral 2015-12-14 10:43:05
Amazing post, really timely for me. I just had two girls leave me in the same week to take up with boyfriends who want to try the exclusive thing. One of these girls had often discussed her dislike of the whole monogamy/marriage deal with me. I hadn't really thought that this was going to be a problem but I guess it comes with the territory - I must be doing something right because neither of them saw me as provider and had to go somewhere else to get that. Anyway, thanks for writing this post and this blog in general. It's helpful to have some opinions and experience outside the standard narrative to keep my perspective sane. I'm interested, at this point, to see if they eventually come back.
Blackdragon 2015-12-14 11:18:11
Looking down the road, once my main goes for a beta, what are my options with the group?Keep going with it unless there's drama.
The older you get, the more meaningless finding strange vagina in your bed really becomes, you get tired of it, eventually go beta, get married….been there, done that.I agree, but the answer isn't monogamous marriage. Long-term monogamy doesn't work. You have many other options in your older years besides "going beta."
BD: Do you believe that if more and more males became alpha, this would reduce the problems you are describing in this post?Yes.
It’s sort of a catch 22 isn’t? You would have more competition out there if more men became alpha.Yes, but it's an irrelevant hypothetical. The majority of men will always be beta to some degree, and even many Alpha 1.0s will agree to the female agenda (more or less).
All bets are off now because neither Alphas or Betas are really needed for anything long term, society protects women from all sides and any accountability for their choices.Correct. That's it. Big goverment interfering into the culture is the catalyst for most of these problems (as is usually the case).
I’m interested, at this point, to see if they eventually come back.If you weren't a pussy or an asshole during the relationship, and you KEEP RADIO SILENCE FOR AT LEAST FOUR MONTHS, then they probably will. Can you pull that off? Most men can't.
Rancor 2015-12-14 15:15:45
What do you make of a guy who wants to father as many children as possible from as many different women as possible? I haven't seen this character discussed in any Alpha/Beta classification scheme.
Blackdragon 2015-12-14 15:57:55
You haven't heard much on that topic because unless you live in the third world, you would have to be a multi millionaire in order to afford all of the child support you would be forced to pay.
Duke 2015-12-14 15:58:33
What do you make of a guy who wants to father as many children as possible from as many as women as possible?I've thought about this plenty. I would have to be pretty wealthy and in addition have all my money hidden so I wouldn't have to pay outrageous child support. Also I would probably have to stay within one city or country, as I would like to be part of the children's life in some capacity. Since I would like to travel whenever I want, this would probably stand in the way of my happiness. From evolutionary perspective any male that reproduces is successful and therefore alpha. In the modern world however, this is hardly the case.
Tony 2015-12-14 16:09:17
If you really want to have as many kids as possible (which is dumb, what's best for your genes isn't what's best for you), you should try donating sperm. Way cheaper than having them with a woman the natural way.
SM 2015-12-14 16:09:26
Not sure how I feel about this post. I might be missing the point, but I think its tone sort of contradicts one of your classic posts here: https://blackdragonblog.com/2011/10/17/who-is-your-competition-for-women/ A quote from the older post:
Typical needy AFC / beta / provider guys. About 65% to 70% of guys out there. In no way are these men my competition. Yes, women I have in open relationships might temporarily LSNFTE me for these guys occasionally, but I’m the one they always come back to, not them. I run circles around these guys without even trying. I know a lot of you regular readers do also.From today's post:
Still think it’s “no big deal” that there are so many betas out there? Still think betas are harmless? Still think they don’t cause you any problems? Still think they have no power over your dating or relationship life? They do. Far more so than other Alpha Males.Have your views changed since you wrote that old post or am I just misunderstanding you?
Blackdragon 2015-12-14 16:35:28
I reread that post before writing this one, just to make sure my thinking was straight. Nothing I said in the above article contradicts anything in that post. In that, I do not consider beta males my competition. At the same time, beta males do raise the bar to entry for many women and cause things like LSNFTEs. I always have an abundance mentality with this stuff, and with my high lay ratios and my 94% return rate, it works. Yet I also acknowledge reality. Saying 'beta males don't matter' simply isn't true. Hope that makes sense. It's not one or the other. Both are true conditions simultaneously.
Rancor 2015-12-14 16:42:44
Money is a solvable problem, and I don't see why it would take millions of dollars to do this and still live comfortably. Feminism has produced hordes of well off professional single women looking to get pregnant right now and there must be a way for everyone to get what they want.
SM 2015-12-14 17:00:50
I reread that post before writing this one, just to make sure my thinking was straight. Nothing I said in the above article contradicts anything in that post. In that, I do not consider beta males my competition. At the same time, beta males do raise the bar to entry for many women and cause things like LSNFTEs. I always have an abundance mentality with this stuff, and with my high lay ratios and my 94% return rate, it works. Yet I also acknowledge reality. Saying ‘beta males don’t matter’ simply isn’t true. Hope that makes sense. It’s not one or the other. Both are true conditions simultaneously.Cool, thanks for the clarification.
Blackdragon 2015-12-14 17:20:44
Money is a solvable problemAgree, but money is only half the problem. The other half is an overly intrusive anti-man government ready to throw you in jail if you don't pay the child support they want you to pay.
, and I don’t see why it would take millions of dollars to do this and still live comfortably.Perhaps not millions of dollars, but you'd need to be making at least 500,000 annually if you truly want all these kids.
Feminism has produced hordes of well off professional single women looking to get pregnant right now and there must be a way for everyone to get what they want.Haha. Then go get all those rational, logical women pregnant and watch what happens. Good luck with that.
Rancor 2015-12-14 17:50:09
If you really want to have as many kids as possible (which is dumb, what’s best for your genes isn’t what’s best for you), you should try donating sperm. Way cheaper than having them with a woman the natural way.I believe in the theory of evolution, which says that you are merely a short-lived, throwaway machine constructed by your genes for their own survival. Since you will eventually die your genes need a new home to hop into, so they program you to go out, get women pregnant, and see that the children reach reproductive age. Of course, your behavior is complicated by the fact that your genes are replicated in other people, but whatever. The donation idea is something I will need to think through.
Tony 2015-12-14 18:19:28
@Rancor You're close, but not quite right. Your genes don't need you to reproduce to survive unless you're the last organism on Earth to have that gene. With 7 billion people in the world, the chances of you having any sort of unique genes is pretty much nil, and even if you did they would most likely either do nothing or be negative (i.e. cause cancer or something). The only reason your genes push so hard for you to reproduce is because the people with those genes were most likely to reproduce. However, at this point those genes are in millions or billions of people. Unless you have thousands of children any "contribution" you make to the gene pool will be meaningless. No matter what you do, the relative frequency of any particular gene you have won't change by more than a thousandth of a percent. You can do whatever you want, but time and money are precious resources, and if you waste them on doing something for your genes you're going to regret it. But it's your life, go ahead and do it if you want.
Rancor 2015-12-14 18:21:45
Haha. Then go get all those rational, logical women pregnant and watch what happens. Good luck with that.They can be as irrational as they want - as long as you don't fall into the marriage trap what's the worst that can happen? You're going to be stuck paying to raise your kids regardless of whether you're in a traditional relationship structure or not. There are a zillion guys looking for sexual variety without committment or children, and another zillion guys looking to emasculate themselves in a monogamous beta fatherhood role. I don't see why I shouldn't be greedy and try to have it all.
Blackdragon 2015-12-14 19:21:59
as long as you don’t fall into the marriage trap what’s the worst that can happen?You can get stuck paying child support for 25 children you can't afford and then go to prison. Women can't legally opt out of child support. Even if you work out some kind of deal with them, they can (and will) change their minds, and with one phone call you owe, or go to prison. Again, if you make an insane amount of money, then that's a risk you can afford. If you don't, have fun in prison. In all seriousness, if this is something you really want to do, move to the third world. In Columbia, for example, you can impregnate all the women you want and you won't owe anyone a penny as far as the government is concerned.
Gluteus_Maximus 2015-12-14 20:46:56
it's okay guys, i'm going to be one of the pivotal people who liberate us all with sex robots, that LOOK GOOD and animate WELL. i'll do my best to add a self-cleaning feature and/or develop a self-cleaning station. maybe 10-15 years from now. just hang on. personally, i'm not too big on accepting girls back that LSNFTE me. but it doesn't really matter. they're usually replaced quickly and i use escorts as well.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-12-14 21:20:28
Article is spot on. However the bottom 80% of males (looks, money, status, game) in a market will always need to be offering something more to compete with the top 20%. If a guy is shorter, uglier and poorer than the rest of the competition that is hitting a girl of that looks level up for a date, that guy is going to have to pitch a pretty extravagant date, or a gift, or money, or something else to have any hopes competing with better men pitching drinks. Consider someone rich, good looking, famous and with game (game is essentially just charm and awareness of the market, his place in it and how to play it efficiently), so a top 0.01% male, no matter how many dinners and gifts or how much money a girl has been showered with by lesser men she'll agree to almost any date scenario with said male, but she may expect the rest of us to take her out to an expensive dinner or whatever. Simply because other men with similar SMV's (sexual/dating market value) are offering her that. All there is, is the market. Everything comes down to supply and demand. If every other guy in my 'league' (looks, money, status, game) is offering her expensive dinners, then I'm going to have to too. A girls looks (relative to other girls in the market) will dictate what she can demand from men at each tier and a man's looks, money, status and game will dictate how little attention/time/money he needs to invest to get her. Just like any market with a buy/sell price that is set freely by it's participants. It's almost a zero sum game, but not quite because there are still women out there who aren't actively aware or participating in the market and may not even realize their own value in it, but thanks to social media, internet dating etc. these women are becoming rarer, technology is making the market more 'efficient'. So you used to be able to find a girl in a nightclub/bar who could probably do better or demand more from you, but didn't realize it, so could get away with an easy ONS or whatever just by being the guy who approached, but now there's 50 other guys (some likely with a higher SMV than you) hitting her up on her smartphone while you're trying to pick her up.
Blackdragon 2015-12-14 21:40:24
If a guy is shorter, uglier and poorer than the rest of the competition that is hitting a girl of that looks level up for a date, that guy is going to have to pitch a pretty extravagant date, or a gift, or money, or something else to have any hopes competing with better men pitching drinks.Correct, but it's not that simple. There are many beta males who are good looking and have money, for example, who are happy to kiss a woman's ass.
Ron Gordon 2015-12-14 21:47:56
BD says " If you stand your ground and stick with the “get a drink” idea, she actually gets a little offended. You’re some kind of cheapass player and not a “gentleman.” " I refer to this as false indignation... the gasp of surprise and disgust when I make the move for the kill,,,
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-12-14 22:27:02
Correct, but it’s not that simple. There are many beta males who are good looking and have money, for example, who are happy to kiss a woman’s ass.Agreed, and these guys are tough competition. They are fools who don't realize their market value and are overpaying, If they are high SMV and giving a woman everything she wants they are seriously driving up the price of the market. The only saving grace is that they're needy (obviously), which will grind on a woman's nerves, but as you say, it still raises the cost of acquisition and retention of a girl, oftentimes to the point that it's not even worth it vs just finding a younger girl (who is less aware of her 'value') or just paying for sex directly. Women ideally want Alpha Fux, Alpha Bux, but in most markets only top tier women can get that (top models etc.) and even then, only for a brief period before Mr. Alpha Fux, Alpha Bux gets bored and moves onto the next top tier model, but it doesn't stop most women from trying to get it.
Marsupial 2015-12-14 23:33:24
"Beta males will cheerfully agree to things Alpha Males won’t." Switch the genders and substitute "slut" for "beta male". It's instructive.
Dennis 2015-12-15 09:07:03
Wait until you are 62. The betas have ruined older women for us alphas. For Online I am are sarging for women in there 40's and 50's. Women in their 20's and 30's do not respond. So unless I go SA(seeking Arrangements), women below 33 in age are out of range. If I don't go SA, I'm left with "option C" which is putting in the numbers. On Match and POF, my stats are for every 50 emails I send, I get 5 to 15 replies. Out of those 5 to 15 replies I get 3 to 8 coffee or drink meets. Out of the 3 to 8 meets, I get 2 or 3 2nd dates at my house for dinner. One of those dinner dates will have sex then or on the next date. So I have to send out 50 emails, spend a lot of time gaming, and I mean a lot of time to get one sexual relationship that lasts around 3-4months. After doing this for a number of years, I'm seeing the same women on Match and POF that I saw 5 years ago so my pool of new women is getting smaller. Not only that but many women give up and stop going on line in their 50s. Most women in their 60s online have let themselves go and are way to unattractive to bother with. That's my reality of sarging online when you are older. Anyway thanks to BD and especially Dawson, I've been trying SA. Unlike Dawson, I don't get free sex from these women. On the first meet, I can usually get free sex, but it's pay up for 2nd time. Luckily, I have the money so the money I spend is meaningless to me. I'll have to say though that the women I've had sex with from SA that are in their 20s and 30s are gorgeous. One 28 y/o could have been a playmate model she was so gorgeous. A funny thing though, most of the women I've met on SA are want-to-be " artists".
Parade 2015-12-15 10:06:54
@wolfofgeorgestreet A bit off topic, (and hopefully not against the rules here) but do you have any contact info/site? I have a few questions about tinder I'd like to ask you and to comment section of this blog seems inappropriate 🙂 You can send me an email at parade941 :at: mail.com (made for expressly this purpose)
Blackdragon 2015-12-15 10:54:49
Agreed, and these guys are tough competition.Well, as I was saying to SM above, these men aren't competition (for me at least) at all. They're betas, and I will fuck they women they want to fuck, and do so more easily and with far less time and money spent. When these women get bored with them, they will come back to me (or men like me) and never back to them. At the same time, yes, these men are hardcore "bar-raisers" and make my dating and relationship life a little more difficult, disjointed, and time consuming. But they're still not my competition; or at least I don't view them as such. "Competition" and "bar-raiser" (for lack of a better term) are two different things. I know they sound similar though.
They are fools who don’t realize their market value and are overpayingAbsolutely. Those are the types of guys that need to buy my book.
AB 2015-12-15 13:53:53
It's good to acknowledge these dynamics. Most guys who are alpha won't admit this. In this society, the betas do quite well. Just because you read these sites and are an ambition, high sex drive man, doesn't mean that the vast majority of males out there aren't betas perfectly content to marry an attractive girl who wants to settle down. As BD said, they will give her whatever she wants and probably be more-or-less happy to do it. Sure, they may wish they had a better sex life and not bossed around so much, but they'll be happy to have a family and a wife. If you want to be alpha 2.0 it will require infinitely more work to set up something even remotely as comparable. You need a woman who agrees to the open family dynamic, agrees to you standing up for yourself, etc... You need to be a guy that can demand all of that AND find a woman who is fine with that AND find a woman that is into you. The intersection of all of that is a very small amount of women. It's just easier to be a beta, work on your career, and have 2.5 children and the Disney life for a while. The thing is, the men who read here know that almost all women will eventually get sick of you, alpha or not. It doesn't matter in the end how you define yourself. The reality is that after so many years we all basically end up in the same situation, with a woman who sees us as a friend/roommate/family member at best. Little sex, little intimacy, much annoyance at you, etc... It's just life. Even the alphas run out of game after a while for a long term woman. As kryptokate said, there are no more goals for her to achieve in relation to you, so there is no more attraction. Whether you're alpha or at least a confident beta in training, as I would think most men who read here are one of those, the key is realizing this relationship trajectory is waiting for you no matter what you do. Knowing this it the key, because then you can structure your life such that you haven't intertwined your life and promised monogamy to a woman who can barely stand your touch anymore. You can also structure your life so that the shorter term relationship you have with women are more fulfilling for both of you. She has genuine attraction for you, even if it won't last forever. It's better to enjoy those shorter term relationships is it not? As @Ronin said, enjoy the moments for what they are. Enjoy women for what they can give, and then when it's over, move on to the next moments.
Blackdragon 2015-12-15 14:58:24
Sure, they may wish they had a better sex life and not bossed around so much, but they’ll be happy to have a family and a wife.For a while, until they get ass-raped in a divorce and lose their retirement and their children. Being a beta is easier, true, but it's also far more painful.
Kryptokate 2015-12-15 17:39:36
I'm occasionally astonished at how beta some guys will get and it most certainly drives up market prices. I work with a lot of men who are classic beta bucks, high-earning guys who kick ass in the business world and then kiss their (non-working, stay-at-home) wives' asses once they get home. And, for that matter, their kids' asses too. And I really can't figure it out, but it's distasteful to witness. I'm talking about older guys with post-menopausal wives that they are almost certainly no longer having sex with, and they are basically just voluntary service mules who labor to keep those women in posh, pampered big houses and SUVS and vacations. All I can figure is that (1) they're afraid of divorce rape, or (2) she used to be hot and he was a bland, personality-less dork who was lucky to marry her, then let the power dynamic get set. Some people are just naturally non-aggressive, agreeable, and conflict-avoidant, and those people will often prefer to let others get a better "deal" rather than go through the trouble of asserting themselves. Those are the people who can cause a change in the market. A guy (or a woman) can very good-looking, smart, fun, funny, etc, but just have a non-aggressive personality type that would rather settle than seek out their best option, and those people can really up market price if others meet them and then wonder why they can't land someone similar. I have probably been guilty of this myself because I'm pretty lazy and will usually just opt for an easy option rather than the best option. The tall good-looking architect who is nice and sexy but doesn't want to bother getting the best woman who will have him will create a lot of high expectations and broken hearts. This is why I think people need to "stay in their own lane" with who they get involved with, which I've written about recently. It just screws up the market dynamics and creates expectations that can't be met otherwise. And then you have people who stay out of the market altogether rather than participate because it doesn't seem worth the trouble. BTW, this works both ways. I have had alpha guys be absolutely enraged and indignant that I wouldn't do things for them that they had become accustomed to girls doing. I tried explaining to one guy that I didn't want to get married and wasn't trying to extract anything from him, so therefore it was unreasonable for him to expect that I would be willing to try as hard as girls who were. He was sexy AND rich and therefore accustomed to ass-kissing, but his value was much, much higher to a woman looking to marry than it was to me. He didn't get it. WolfofGeorgeStreet is right, it's all supply and demand. People should know their market niche and price and stop expecting that they just "deserve" something beyond what the market allows for, or that markets don't constantly change.
doclove 2015-12-15 19:22:57
To everyone here, especially Black Dragon, Dennis, Wolf of George Street and Kryptokate, you have made great comments. I hate to say it, but if a man has to spend U.S. $ 150 on one date or even 3 dates which is more reasonable and 6 dates which is very reasonable, then he may as well as spend $300 on an prostitute. It is both cheaper financially and less taxing emotionally especially if he doesn't get sex.
Blackdragon 2015-12-15 21:13:54
if a man has to spend U.S. $ 150 on one date or even 3 dates which is more reasonable and 6 dates which is very reasonable, then he may as well as spend $300 on an prostitute.This has always been my opinion, yes. I get laid as inexpensively as possible. Otherwise, yeah, I might as well cut to the chase and pay hookers.
JJ Roberts 2015-12-15 23:22:56
Under Sex 3.0 with unfenced relationships this happens too (temporarily losing access to a girl while she pursues her disney fantasy) but far, far, far less often than it happens when you simply say to her that you don't do monogamy and offer her a long term open relationship. In the last 14 years of exclusively doing unfenced relationships it's happened to me only 4 times despite seeing and getting involved with countless women during that period. I was quite surprised by this myself because I thought it would happen way more often but, nope, once every 3.5 years is all. Of those 4 women, 1 of them already cheated on the guy with me and another one of them probably would if given the chance. The reason why it happens far less often is that I am not offering her a refusal, I am offering her an upgrade. Huge difference.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-12-16 07:25:54
if a man has to spend U.S. $ 150 on one date or even 3 dates which is more reasonable and 6 dates which is very reasonable, then he may as well as spend $300 on an prostitute.Especially if you're a high income earner and you factor in TIME. If you sat down and added up all the time you spend chasing women, on dates etc. vs the amount of sex you get from it, that's when you start to see the power of just paying a pro. For a man who's time is valuable and who is just looking for sex it's actually extremely cost effective and a great option to have access to when you feel like it. However, pro's don't give you the 'thrill of the hunt' and you miss out on the companionship and feminine energy if the girl is actually fun to hang out with, So if you truly enjoy the chase, the sense of accomplishment when you bed a new girl and your time with a girl outside the bedroom more than you do working, then you're not really paying anyway.
Lovergirl 2015-12-16 08:13:44
Most people are blissfully unaware of their "market value" or they assess it differently than the next person. Its really relative to what the person seeking WANTS. What's of value to you may be of less value to someone else. For a long term relationship I think most people are seeking out comfort more than anything else. A woman wants to feel safe with a man that isn't going to run off and leave her and her children for someone else. A man wants to feel safe with a woman that he feels won't humiliate him by leaving him for another man. This is why men go for the "madonna" for marriage and why women choose the "beta". Marsupial's comment above was really quite brilliant. You think a person is downgrading but they are doing it deliberately because someone who is equal or better than them in terms of their perception of "market value" is actually more of a risk. Most people choose the safe option rather than gamble with their future.
CrabRangoon 2015-12-16 10:41:43
@AB This line "there are no more goals for her to achieve in relation to you, so there is no more attraction." struck a chord. It does seem that once women hit the milestones (co-habiting, engagement, marriage, babies..) the man becomes no more than a utility to maintain the lifestyle. This would explain why they get bored after the big "pops" like a wedding or birth of a child. There a "what's next" attitude throughout the whole dating/LTR process and then eventually you just run out of nexts. Even those couples that do have decent relationship will tell you that it becomes very boring and monotonous after years together.
Duke 2015-12-16 12:59:44
For a long term relationship I think most people are seeking out comfort more than anything else. A woman wants to feel safe with a man that isn’t going to run off and leave her and her children for someone else. A man wants to feel safe with a woman that he feels won’t humiliate him by leaving him for another man.Everyone can agree with smart women picking betas for marriage. But I don't think the inverse is true as often. Most guys want the trophy no matter what the cost. They probably don't care if they eventually get cheated on, get denied sex, have to work themselves to the bone, pay exorbitant exit costs, or struggle to see their children after the split. All this is worth it to them. On the other hand I have seen what you say a few times. I know a guy who is tall, good looking, and ripped. This guy married a woman that is short, dumpy and average looking at best. But he knows that she will never leave and he probably bangs chicks on the side so it really doesn't affect him, except for maybe getting strange looks when he takes his wife out.
AB 2015-12-16 13:40:18
@CrabRangoon Yes, I think one of the biggest epiphanies I had regarding women and relationships was realizing how their interest in you was a function of your utility. Not just their sex drive, but their overall enthusiasm. Their enthusiasm for you is proportional to the goals they will achieve through or with you. Now, that can be twisted into something negative, as many angry men have done, but in the end it's just a way of helping men to understand the female brain. So many men think women are so complicated and their sex drive is this mysterious black box. They write books on this shit. But really, if you think of it in terms of goals, it all falls into place. All human beings are motivated by goals. In terms of relationships though, for men, the goal is often the woman herself. Sex with her is the goal. Mutually enthusiastic sex where he feels her genuine attraction is the goal. It's how most men feel relationship security. It's a need. So, for a man, the goal never really changes. She's still there. He wants her and he wants her to want him. The goal is quite simple and fairly static. The NRE dies down sure, but most men still want a good amount of enthusiastic sex to feel bonded in the relationship. They get that and the rest kind of falls into place. For women though, increased desire is a by-product of their OTHER goals. At the start, this goal might just be your commitment. Trying to achieve that will naturally heighten their enthusiasm for the relationship. When she is trying to achieve this goal, your goals align with hers. You have NRE, lots of enthusiastic sex (often where the man can't keep up with her in fact), and it's great. The naive beta man says, "Fuck ya, sign me up for a life time of this". Problem is, once he says 'fuck ya, just you and me forever baby', the goal has been achieved for her and there is a marked decrease or plateau of her interest. Maybe for a bit longer the NRE keeps things going, but every guy has had that gut feeling where he knows things are starting to change. There's the occasional rejection for no reason, a little more attitude, etc... Almost all guys ignore this gut feeling and plow ahead (with less plowing actually). And the beta-ization cycle begins. Other events can bring back these feelings and really you can drag this out for years, even a decade. You'll never get back to the NRE peak, but you can have other peaks. Overall though, picture a Poisson style curve with a high peak early and then a gradual decrease to 0 or negative interest. THAT is how a woman's interest looks in a long term relationship. Just add a few bump ups for big life events that she wants to achieve (which you also want to achieve no doubt, but these aren't directly tied to your sex drive and interest in her). This is where the common trope of, "in relationships, men want her to stay the same, and women want him to change", comes from. The man's goal is achieved early, whereas hers continues to change and is never satiable. But, this does NOT mean women are somehow inferior. That's where angry guys go with this. "Women can't be trusted", "they only want your resources", "they will just trade up", "no loyalty", etc.. etc... No guys, it's just biology. It's how they work. The great news though is that when they are in goal oriented mode, their drive can be insane. It's an amazing feeling. It's just transient. So, in 3 years when you can't provide any more goals for her and she only wants vanilla sex once a month, don't take it personally. Don't think her less of a person. Don't blame her. It's not her fault. It's not yours. It's life.
Kryptokate 2015-12-16 16:22:42
@ CrabRagoon and AB -- yes, that is pretty much correct. Think about it this way. There is literally not a single novel, movie, or bit of literature I can think of that is a love story of two people who are together and have a nice life. It's boring and no one would read it. People want stories of overcoming obstacles to reach goals. They want Romeo and Juliet kept apart by their parents. They want Disney princesses cast out of the kingdom or princes who look like beasts. They want star-crossed lovers and adulterors and people who fall in love who can't be together. That's the story that keeps people riveted. Once the lovers overcome obstacles and get to be together, no one wants to hear the story anymore. It's completely boring and no one cares. "And they lived happily ever after" is the end, not the beginning. What keeps people motivated and interested in things is struggle and uncertainty. We read the next chapter when there's a cliffhanger and we want to know what happens next. Not when we KNOW what happens next. Too much uncertainty will drive someone crazy with stress, and people need *some* degree of comfort, as Lovergirl said. But they actually prefer less comfort than they think. They often look back at times of struggle and adversity, before they "made it" romantically or financially, as the "good old days". And they get excited and riled up for drama. I would say MOST people prefer drama to contentment. One of BD's maxims is that he prefers happiness to drama, and I believe him. I'm rather on the extreme of preferring enjoyment to drama myself. But I think it's a minority view. Most people prefer the drama and excitement of not yet having met a goal, and the anticipation of meeting it, to actually having achieved that goal. It's why Christmas Eve is way better than the day after Christmas. Looking forward to opening presents and having others open your gifts is a better feeling than having actually opened them. Anticipation really is a good 80-90% of pleasure.
JRM 2015-12-16 16:26:42
@AB Super insightful comment. You're so right, damn. One thing, I always read about how women get bored and the sex tapers off. I've been in relationships of 1 -3 years and I'M always the one to start wanting sex less. Yes, it starts out hot and heavy and then I just get bored. I'll still care and may love the person, but I just don't get a desire of more than once a week to drill them. Perhaps they always want it because they can tell I don't want it as much?
AB 2015-12-16 19:11:29
@JRM That's interesting. I don't feel that, but I do know there are guys who really crave variety. I also think in the 1-3 year part of a relationship that hasn't progressed to engagement, moving in, buying houses, marriage, and children, the drive is still there for the women you date. There are so many goals to achieve still. There isn't that ultimate comfort of a serious long term monogamous marriage to evaporate her drive for you yet. So that's a part of it. That with your need for variety / thrill of hunt is likely the explanation. I am fine with the theory of monogamy, but not the reality. I maintain a super high drive, but hers always disappears. Most guys I've talked to report the same. I think even BD has said he'd be fine with monogamy if it actually worked. Then there are guys like you who need that hunt. I have no idea on the proportions of these categories.
JRM 2015-12-16 20:42:16
@ AB - Very true, I guess they never get to a point where they think they've reached any goals with me. It's funny, once I found the manosphere and applying the principles, women started to beg me to marry them and have children with them. Previous to that, I'd be all beta hoping they'd want that and nope, not one did (I'm not a bad catch either). Honestly, I HATE the hunt, I hate the chase - it all seems like a giant time suck to me. I'm the laziest bastard when it comes to hunting. I put in virtually zero effort, very similar to BD. The only reason I don't get hookers is because I'm terrified of STDs. The issue is I just feel as if my soul/freedom is being crushed in a deep LTR. I always want to be "out, seeing what new opportunities come my way", but of course, when I'm totally single, I'm like "crap, I gotta put in effort again". I want my cake and to eat it too ha.
Straight Rider 2015-12-17 11:23:31
@AB, really good stuff. Even for short term relationships, men that are not offering Disney promises(going the Alpha 2.0 route) need to understand this and stop getting angry/perplexed when they get LSNFTE’d, ghosted or whatever else. She may at first just be physically/sexually attracted to you and/or your game/frame but continued interest is a function of your utility. So if you are not going to be offering Disney promises then you must provide as much other value as possible (fun/sexual energy, status, mentorship, financial or whatever else) in order to keep interest/attraction as long as possible. Women go where the "value" is, whatever that value is to them at the present time. If you're going the Alpha 2.0 route you cannot be lazy especially as you get older, you need to keep working on yourself to become a man of higher "value" or increase/maintain your "value" generally, which I believe BD has stated before is something you should be doing anyway as a man. I am not suggesting one route over the other, to each his own, but I see a lot of Alpha 1.0 guys who think their game/frame and working on becoming a man of higher "value" will keep their woman's attraction level high forever. I also see a lot of guys going the beta route thinking I am going to give her everything she wants and worship the ground she walks on and this will keep her attraction level high forever.
Dennis 2015-12-17 17:50:12
It's all about Cost Per Orgasm(CPO) , the term Dawson uses. The cost is your time and money spent. If you want bonding and loving feelings your CPO is going to be higher. For many the extra "cost" of bonding is well worth it for as long as it lasts. As time goes on, bonding or not, and you no longer meet your woman's goals or check list or your value to her decreases, as @AB wrote about above(thanks @AB), your CPO increases and it's time to move on. When women reach their late 40s and early 50s and beyond, the betas that they've had relationships with over decades have raised the CPO quite high. Most but not all women this age have the "magic pussies" syndrome, that men should pay in time, money and entertainment to get that magic. That's why I have to put in the numbers with this age group to find the "non magic pussies". These "older women" who are not fat and exercise(approx 30% of this age group) are 6s or 7s with occasional 8s. Most have wrinkles and sun damage in their faces, necks, hands, and between their breasts. What's amusing is you can take the same CPO you spend on them and apply it to "sugar daddy arrangement" with a 20-30y/o and be with an young 8.5-9.5. Of course you won't have bonding and feelings of love but at my age I'd rather have a young woman with NSA and a low CPO.
Blackdragon 2015-12-17 22:19:19
It’s all about Cost Per Orgasm(CPO) , the term Dawson uses. The cost is your time and money spent. If you want bonding and loving feelings your CPO is going to be higher.This is utterly incorrect and why I don't subscribe to that model. Of the four longest and most serious relationships I've ever had in my life, three of them had a "CPO" of exactly zero dollars the first time we had sex. Now if you're talking about over time, then yes, a serious MLTR or OLTR is going to cost more than a pure FB (who again, can have consistent "CPO" costs of zero over a long period of time). And yes, most men reading these words are going to want a connection with at least one of their women over time, ruling out the hooker option for most men. Very true. My implied point above was that you can get laid, with hot chicks, for literally zero or near-zero costs. I do it all the time and have for years. That's my system. You can also maintain a long, ongoing sexual relationships (though it will be an FB) with a hot girl for zero or near-zero costs. Once a man learns how to do this, he doesn't need to worry about hookers (unless he gets very old, or ugly, or fat, etc). The counter-argument to what I just said is that a man may say "But I don't want to learn about seduction and dating and relationsihp management. Fuck it. I just want to get to the sex without all that crap." Then I agree that guy should forget about learning girl skills and just cut to the chase by paying hookers or sugar babies (assuming he has the income to do so, which most men over 40 should).
Dennis 2015-12-18 11:33:15
Actually this is NOT utterly incorrect. You might have noticed that the "Cost" in CPO is TIME+money. Being that I'm 20 years older than you, TIME is more important to me than you for I have less time left in my life to pursue fun and pleasure. As a consequence TIME that I have to spend to get sex is much more important to me than the money I have to spend. To me the money is inconsequential. And yes I too have spent less that $6(2 coffees) for the first time I've had sex with a woman. But the TIME I spent sarging online and counting all the other meets that I had coffee with and rejected before that 10 buck sex hit was a costly CPO because of total time spent. So now my CPO philosophy is: with the time I have left I want to minimize the TIME part of CPO that I spend in obtaining fun and sex. Least you and your readers assume I'm some kind of misogynists, I was married for 24years. Unlike your descriptions of marriage, I had a great monogamous marriage with a super intelligent 8.5 woman with very minimal drama , no drop off in sex as we both had high sex drives with fantastic love and bonding. I have a wonderful Son who is doing great in business that I'm very proud of. I had the most wonderful of pleasures in life a father can have of watching my son being born, raising him and guiding him to become a better man than I. Would I still be married if my wife had not died from breast cancer 7 years ago... I think so but I don't know? I also don't know what would have happened to our marriage as we aged into out 70s and 80s let alone today, given my desire for younger women. Perhaps I'm permanently biased because of my late wife's quality, cuz I don't meet women, young or old, that measure up to her. So minimizing TIME in the COST in CPO is now my goal.
Blackdragon 2015-12-18 11:40:48
We don't disagree. Nothing you just said contradicted anything I said. I said in terms of getting to first-time fast sex, bonding/loving feelings don't require any more money (or time for that matter). You're saying it's worth it to you to spend more money to save time, and I acknowledged that already. Two different things.
Dennis 2015-12-18 12:03:25
@BD I forgot to mention in my above post that your pool of 20-30s non "magic pussy"women that haven't been spoiled by betas is many 2 to 3 or more times as large as my pool of 45-55 non "magic pussy" women. As such and given the fact that women in their 20s and early 30s don't mind having sex much faster than older women, your TIME cost of CPO will be much less than mine giving the same game.
Alpha 3.0 aka MGTOW Elite 2017-06-23 20:29:12
Excellent post and Black Dragon is right i have experienced this many times as well. I'm age 40 Alpha 3.0 MGTOW elite . Yes the Bad Ass . Because once you take the final black pill you gain universal scientific enlightenment that no woman will ever be loyal to your grave with you . Alphas , Beta boys and women ALL lose in terms of love in this endless mating game . Women are instinctively driven as are men to procreate with as many other partners as possible to ensure the survival of the species . One can easily observe this in the animal kingdom as with all the single mama's with multiple daddy dramas . Women only pretend to love you for personal gain. Loyalty and love are male only traits , with the exception of family members for women . All other men are disposable to them. Thus if you are the wise Grand Master Omega of all men you take precautions so that women can never destroy you as they will try like hell to. Because when the every relationship inevitably ends , she will take everything you have via our corrupt Globalist judicial systems . But thats another long story... I got the vasectomy and never married up . My life is free and peaceful and i still enjoy plenty of pussy when visiting cities . Country dating is worse . You'll end up a monk if you dont mass message women. Geography makes a BIG difference in online dating scene. So i agree with BlackDragon in choice C . Mass write these sluts is the way to go brothers . Enjoy long term relationships with the decent women of peace ...avoid women of chaos. But also enjoy the down times alone always focused on personal pursuits over women , whilst tasting of the pussy buffet along the way !
CTV 2018-11-25 13:30:40
It's the Providership that really kills it for us. Our mentality is to keep our overhead low and beneath our means so the thought of blowing $100.00 on a date or dropping $10000.00 - $15000.00 on an Engagement Ring is for foreign if not vulgar. Now obvious exceptions are if you obviously have Dan B. or Trump money then you can spend as much as you'd like for your basically playing a video game with cheat codes. ALSO in you live in So Cal like me and you happen to be out in LA for your date.. you can spend $100.00 on a date even when you're trying to be cheap (crazy I know). And it doesn't stop there.. These women have Disney Fantasies for their on image though You. I've seen that range from showing her friends what an Obedient Beta she has, you buying her $50000.00 BMW's, Mercedes, and Range Rovers.. Buying $800000.00 PLUS houses.. Since this doesn't sound like shit any of us will just willingly agree to, YES the Beta's have a lot of power. They may even agree to one way Polyamory where their lady can fuck other men, but they can't fuck other women..
Stefano 2019-11-28 08:40:49
"What do you make of a guy who wants to father as many children as possible from as many different women as possible?"This is short-sighted. The human animal has such high level and long range communication that we don't even really reproduce physically anymore. For all intents and purposes, we reproduce through culture and ideas. We are far past worrying day-to-day about food/hunt and shelter. FBook, IG, phones, emails, internet, religion, radio, etc are testament to this. Memes and ideas travel at light speed. We are not lions or whales or horses that need our young by our side observing us to have had reproductive success. A bestselling author, emulated athlete, or even a popular YT or IG personality whose actions or philosophy is adopted by the masses is more reproductively successful than a mother/father of 10. Sad but true. Jesus (even though he was probably totally fictional) or the celibate pope have many millions more "kids" by means of so many other humans attempting to follow their ideology and philosophical teachings. If some travelling NBA player has 20 kids by 15 women in 10 cities over his career, those kids become indoctrinated into whatever culture and experiences they grow up in, and then they will learn from the world and the info available to them. That NBA guy's kids might become red pill, transgender, Scientologist, SJW, Jewish, Republican, KKK, etc etc… and despite having his genes, maybe few or none of those cultures and memes the kids emulate might be compatible with his own value system... he had no control of it and wasted a lot of money in the process, though. If the Axis had won WW2 and a survivor British woman was forced to marry a Nazi and her kids sent to Nazi school, did the woman and her dead ex-husband's genes really survive? Physically, yes. Culturally and effectively, no. Humans reproduce by culture and info. The kids she had are now Nazis, any future kids with new husband will be Nazis, and the woman has to pretend she's one too. Again, we are not simple animals where all of the groups act largely the same, and this is why religions and memes and philosophies compete: that literally is modern human reproduction. Also, as was mentioned by Tony and BD, even if it mattered to have many physical kids, it is just too time consuming, too expensive and dangerous, and a waste of your life to have physical kids just for the sake of having kids. Do it if you desire it, not for ego or because a woman you like having sex with wants to play house and you don't want to lose her. BD has more "kids" than anyone here... they are his book readers, blog readers, etc who adopt his philosophy. Kudos to him for accomplishing that. That will be much more impactful on future humans than some basic family's three kids who do basic things, work basic jobs, and follow some dead guy book philosophy at Sunday school. ...great post overall. Betas definitely have serious effects on the game and ASD. Those can't be underestimated.