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How To Be Outcome Independent While Still Having Goals and Desires
-By Caleb Jones
As I describe in detail in my book, Outcome Independence doesn’t mean you don’t care about any outcomes in your life. If that were the case, you’d simply stay in bed all day and waste away until you died of starvation.
Instead, OI means you don’t care about the outcome of any individual scenario.
For example, when I’m in full-on dating/sarging mode (which I’m usually not these days), my objective is always the same: to bring in 1-3 new women into my FB / MLTR roster. This is my desired outcome. I want this outcome.
To achieve this outcome, I go on the dating sites, run through that process, go on a few first dates, and run through that process. As always, I’m dealing with multiple women at a time, never just one woman at a time, since that would be horrible time management.
When I’m on any one particular date, or talking to any one particular woman, I’m completely Outcome Independent. I literally do not care how the interaction ends up. If she works out, great. If she doesn’t, great. Since I’m using a process that works every time, and since I’m dealing with multiple women, I’m Outcome Independent regarding the outcome of any one woman or one date.
Since OI is an extremely attractive quality to women, this helps my results with women. It also keeps me happy and upbeat regardless of what happens. Win / win.
Yet, during the entire time, I’m still desirous of the endgame goal; to get 1-3 new women on rotation. I’m outcome “dependent” about the goal, but not about the process or any individual woman. I don’t need to stress about the goal, since I know the goal will come.
This extends to every other area of my life, such as in my businesses, my financial life, my fitness life, and every other area of my life where I have goals, of which I have many. My goals are very important to me, but I absolutely don’t give a shit about the outcomes regarding any one individual person, prospect, customer, client, interaction, meeting, investment, or whatever. I’m Outcome Independent.
Just like with women, men in business are also naturally drawn to other men in business who demonstrate OI. Think about it. Who are you more likely to buy from? A salesman who is clearly desperate to make the sale and is pressuring you hard to do so, or the salesman who is polite and personable but clearly doesn’t give a shit about the sale because he doesn’t need the money?
There’s no contest. More people are going to buy from second guy, even if he’s charging more money for same thing.
Outcome Independence is immensely powerful.
Positive About the Goal, Pessimistic About the Details
A similar and equally effective way of looking at this is to be positive about your goal, but be very pessimistic on the details and the process of getting to it. I’ve practiced this most of my life and it’s worked very well for me.
One of my mentors, Dan Kennedy, explains it best with this example:
I fly often. Whenever I go on a plane, I know the plane will get me to where I want to go. If I’m going to New York, I know the plane won’t crash, and I know the plane won’t go to Mexico City. It will go to New York. I’m 100% positive, happy, and expectant about the goal: getting to New York.
However, I’m 100% pessimistic about all the aspects of getting there.
1. I expect delays getting through security.
2. I expect the airline to screw up the flight and leave late.
3. I expect the airline staff to be uncooperative if I encounter any problems.
4. I expect to be uncomfortable with the seating arrangements.
5. I expect them to poison me with the food.
6. I expect poor weather conditions when we arrive, causing even more lateness.
So while I’m positive about the goal, I’m a huge Murphy’s Law pessimist regarding all the steps necessary to get to the goal. Therefore, I make contingency plans to account for all of these things, and I don’t freak out if and when they happen.
This is a good way to look at any complicated process or goal. So many men go into business expecting smooth sailing, when in fact your first year or two in a new business will often be one of the most difficult times of your life. They get stressed out by all the very foreseeable problems that they didn’t plan on, and bail out before they’re successful.
As I’ve discussed at great length, men are constantly meeting, dating and/or getting into relationships with women and expect no major problems, assuming these women will always act rationally and logically. These men are always confounded and infuriated, and I mean infuriated, when these women act like the wonderful but irrational creatures they are.
Here's a common exchange when I talk to men about women:
Guy asking for advice: WHY DID SHE DO THAT?!? IT MAKES NO SENSE! Me: Because she’s a girl.
So, want your bottom-line goal, but be Outcome Independent about literally everything else in your life. Expect problems and establish safeguards and contingencies for when these likely problems occur, because they will.
You’ll be a more attractive man and a much happier dude.
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Daniel 2016-05-23 05:50:19
This really struck me: "So many men go into business expecting smooth sailing, when in fact your first year or two in a new business will often be one of the most difficult times of your life." I'm about 10 months in to being full-time with my business, and yeah. It's a lot harder than I was expecting. I'll make it through, though. Consistency is key.
Al 2016-05-23 06:38:29
It's interesting that sometimes what we pursue leaves us and that not caring too much about the outcome brings what we want to us. This is definitely true with a woman. In business the trick is to learn just how much effort to put in to ensure a good return. Just like a woman! 🙂
Ryan 2016-05-23 07:50:11
I recall being outcome independent before I knew it was thing. I have a female co-worker who always has guys doing costly, strenuous or time consuming task for her. I have seen men pay her bills, be her personal handyman and bring her free lunch (typical gold digger/sugar baby shit) all while she dangles sex above them like a treat on string. I guess my number came up and she finally decided to try and hook me with her cunning and sex appeal. She'd ask me to do specific task for her or suggest that I buy her lunch which I always decline to do. I had two very regular FB's at the time and thus didn't give a shit about the sex she was dangling in front of me. Sometimes I replied that she have "Bob" or one of her other boyfriends complete her request to let her know that I wasn't interested. Well another co worker (who had fallen for her trick and subsequently been friend zoned by her) stated to me that he doesn't know what I did but she really wanted to fuck me, which I hadn't picked up on at the time. So I decided to test his statement out by seeing if there was any sexual tension between us. I asked her sexually charged questions. I'd tell her about things I had done to other women. I could see her salivating when I asked about her last pleasurable sexual experience. I noticed since I've turned up the 'don't give fuck'™ Or 'outcome independence' In our interactions she touches me a lot and is always complementing me on my attire or scent and She hasn't asked me for anything other than to hangout a few times. Because of this I'm more aware and I exhibit outcome independent behavior in most of my dealings with all women.
Blackdragon 2016-05-23 10:00:46
I’m about 10 months in to being full-time with my business, and yeah. It’s a lot harder than I was expecting. I’ll make it through, though. Consistency is key.Consistency coupled with right action.
I had two very regular FB’s at the time and thus didn’t give a shit about the sex she was dangling in front of me.That's why you didn't give a shit. Having two regular FBs helps with all kinds of OI.
Matt 2016-05-23 10:58:35
hey hey 2016-05-23 12:27:51
Funny thing, I've read Roosh's article about OI couple of days ago(OI leads to failure), I don't understand if he actually is saying the same thing or he has no clue what OI really is. Hilarious.
POB 2016-05-23 13:29:10
I discovered true relationship OI this one time when I was flat out rejected by a woman I liked and still was able to laugh hard at the whole situation. It was a game changer for sure. I guess you have to take yourself seriously....just not too much.
Jack Outside the Box 2016-05-23 15:16:58
Funny thing, I’ve read Roosh’s article about OI couple of days ago(OI leads to failure), I don’t understand if he actually is saying the same thing or he has no clue what OI really is. Hilarious.I'm getting on my knees and begging everyone who will ever read this: STAY AWAY FROM ROOSH! I spent the last hour on his blog and he's a trillion times worse than I thought! I just got done reading his article about how anti-feminist women should be considered an enemy because they don't slut shame enough and refuse to be virgins until marriage! http://www.rooshv.com/why-the-female-anti-feminist-is-a-feminist-in-disguise Women see the hatefulness and man-hating of feminism and Roosh is teaching them to be sex hating virgin slaves or go back to feminism! This man is a true monster who wants to destroy every last vestige of sex-positivism while hooking men with PUA and then pulling a bait and switch! BD - sorry for the off topic rant, but can you write an article taking the pulse of sex-positivism in the PUA community? You already did one on the manosphere as a whole, but I'm talking specifically about the seduction community. Just how sexually open minded are most PUAs? After reading Roosh, I may have to distance myself from the PUA label as much as I have already distanced myself from the MRA and MGTOW label. Sigh. I guess I'm just a sex-positive humanist!
Kryptokate 2016-05-23 18:35:48
I think a lot of it has to do with one's world-view and how broad of a perspective they're used to taking. For people who understand that life is huge and they are a very small, tiny speck that exists for a tiny speck of time, in the big picture, it's hard for them to attach too much emotional importance to how things turn out as opposed to how they prefer them to turn out. Whereas many people take a very personalized micro-view of things. The way they see it, when something happens, it doesn't just happen, it's being done *to them*. I think it also depends on how tightly one holds on to an idea of how things "should" be -- people who think that way get very bent out of shape when things don't go as they're "supposed to". If you understand that there is no should, there's just how things are, then you don't get so upset. Last, there's a narcissism aspect. People who view everything that happens as a reflection upon their ego and self-worth get very upset when things don't go as they want. People who don't can handle it better. All three of these factors converge: if one see themselves as the center of the universe, then they tend to think of everything that happens to them as hugely important and meaningful and worthy of an emotional/moral reaction. If on the other hand one thinks of oneself as a very small and arbitrary portion of a very huge world where random, arbitrary, and meaningless things happen all the time, then one does not get so emotionally upset when things don't go a certain way. Of course, I *WANT* things to go in a way to be as enjoyable as possible for me, and I take efforts to make those things more likely to occur. But if they don't, I don't consider myself to be worth more or less and my view of life isn't really changed, since I don't have many expectations in the first place and I am perfectly knowledgeable of the fact that bad things can happen any time and even my whole life could end at any minute. None of it has to do with what *should* happen or what I'm entitled to or expect. Most outcome independence is not really a matter of letting go of your own desires, but letting go of an idea of the way things are/should be. It means letting go of the idea that there's a certain "story" that makes sense from a moral and narrative framework. I make efforts to achieve the things that will make me happy, but I don't have any expectations of "happily ever after." Letting go of stories and myths is most of outcome independence, you don't have to let go of your goals at all. It's much easier to do once you've had one of your personal stories of how your life was "supposed" to go shattered forcibly for you. The younger you are when this happens, the better. That's why it doesn't do children any favors to insulate them from the realities of life...they're just living in fantasy lands for longer than ever nowadays. And fantasy lands foster the opposite of outcome independence.
Scandy 2016-05-24 01:53:59
Great comment, Kryptokate. I believe consciousness research shows that all human beings' minds are continuously restructuring and adding to a semi-accurate whole life story that we use to interpret new events and decide upon courses of action. The story may fit real events or partly consist of false/implanted memories, but every mind needs a coherent story and will work hard to defend it once established. That all goes on largely unconsciously of course. I would go as far as to say that our individual happiness level primarily depends on the extent to which our story is disrupted or thrown into doubt by new events. We should all try to hold our stories more loosely, not see them as the Truth About ME. I think anyone interested in freeing themselves a little from their story would benefit from reading the works of A H Almaas, Diamond Heart series.
joelsuf 2016-05-24 08:01:29
I’ve read Roosh’s article about OI couple of days ago(OI leads to failure), I don’t understand if he actually is saying the same thing or he has no clue what OI really is.That's because many people, Roosh included think that Outcome Independence = Not caring about anything. That's not Outcome Independence, that's Fatalist Nihilism (which I am a proponent of, but only in certain aspects). Outcome Independence means that you are already satisfied, but want to be one ounce more satisfied. In this new world where satisfaction is pretty much the most subjective topic in the world, it isn't hard to be Outcome Independent. If you are outcome dependent about anything then you probably have a double digit IQ lol.
After reading Roosh, I may have to distance myself from the PUA label as much as I have already distanced myself from the MRA and MGTOW label. SighYup, the sooner these groups are vilified, the better. Stay FAR away from PUAism. Their sole purpose is to scam weird Omega Males into believing that they can get any chick who they want, and if the chick doesn't hook up with them then its the chick's fault. Feminism wants to blame anyone who doesn't follow their exact beliefs for everything. This is not gonna get any better btw. The Manosphere and Feminism are both responsible for stuff like Elliot Rodger. And you best believe that these groups are all in cahoots with each other and make each other look socially relevant to make sure they brainwash and scam as many people (both male and female) as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if Roosh and Anita Sarkeesian have a kid by 2020 and fool everyone who blindly follows both of them in the process. That's when shit is gonna hit the fan big time.
CrabRangoon 2016-05-24 08:10:36
There a lot of cognitive dissonance going on in certain parts for the manosphere due to the aging of some of thee PUA types. They are getting tired of the player lifestyle, which is not sustainable, and getting into that "there must be more" mentality. Some are getting religious, some are sadly attempting long term monogamy, looking for virgin brides, etc... It's just another unsustainable extreme that won't make them happy in the long run. I'm loving the middle ground of not being monogamous but also not being some total player who's constantly chasing tail.
donnie demarco 2016-05-24 10:51:04
if one see themselves as the center of the universe, then they tend to think of everything that happens to them as hugely important and meaningful and worthy of an emotional/moral reaction. If on the other hand one thinks of oneself as a very small and arbitrary portion of a very huge world where random, arbitrary, and meaningless things happen all the time, then one does not get so emotionally upset when things don’t go a certain way.Great post. You highlight one of the reasons why the Alpha 2.0 philosophies explored here are so powerful. To the typical PUA, outcome independence is a technique for attracting women. For an Alpha 2.0, outcome independence is the natural consequence of reaching a true understanding of who you are and how you fit into this world. OI doesn't just communicate manhood, it literally IS manhood. The ironic thing about all of this is that, when you come to understand how tiny and insignificant you are, that's the moment you realize your potential for infinite power.
Blackdragon 2016-05-24 11:10:06
can you write an article taking the pulse of sex-positivism in the PUA community?Probably not. The entire point of PUA is to have sex, so clearly most PUAs are sex positive.
You already did one on the manosphere as a whole, but I’m talking specifically about the seduction community. Just how sexually open minded are most PUAs?PUAs who actually get laid (not the KJs; those are betas) tend to be Alpha 1.0s. This means they love fucking and having sex until they get oneitis. Then they go mono, wall off their girl from the rest of the world, suffer all the usual consequences, and become players again. Rinse and repeat.
Sam 2016-05-24 17:07:44
Best article so far this year- atleast for me. Outcome Independence is something that kept my head spinning for a while without able to nail it for a while. But this article makes it very simple and clear as daylight. I definitely was the type of guy who expected smooth sailing all the way whether women or business life. Though my drive for success is extremely high, setbacks would shatter my vision because of that attitude. After reading this article, I wrote down a similiar list and have been practicing this attitude. Its working! I am so excited to see the months forward and how this new OI attitude is going to help me kick ass and slay ass 😉
Jack Outside the Box 2016-05-24 17:09:14
The entire point of PUA is to have sex, so clearly most PUAs are sex positive.Um........have you been to Roosh's blog lately? Or Heartiste's? I think you're insufficiently aware of the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance coming from many so called PUAs who are really conservative puritans.
PUAs who actually get laid (not the KJs; those are betas) tend to be Alpha 1.0s.Alpha 1.0s are slut shaming hypocrites who want to fuck tons of women but want those same women to be pure and innocent till marriage. They have a severe M/W complex. Okay, so you answered my question: Most PUAs are slut shaming traditionalists. Just like feminists who sleep with a bunch of men, but if those men sleep with them, they are obviously rape apologists and womanizing misogynists. Sigh....
Jack Outside the Box 2016-05-24 17:18:28
Yup, the sooner these groups are vilified, the better. Stay FAR away from PUAism. Their sole purpose is to scam weird Omega Males into believing that they can get any chick who they want, and if the chick doesn’t hook up with them then its the chick’s fault.When I was a sexually frustrated beta 12 years ago, the PUAs helped me. They taught me the mindset that I have today, got me unstuck from the friend zone, and showed me the attitude of the alpha. It was through PUA that I found BD who helped shake me out of my pro-monogamy beliefs. PUAism has truly been a blessing to me over the years. Without it, I wouldn't be in my current open relationship. But, at the time, I didn't really see the slut shaming and prudery that seems to be becoming more prevalent today. The current PUA community is being pushed to the conservative right and away from the libertarianism upon which it seems to have been founded. The conservative denomination seems to be pushing out the libertarian denomination. The most sex-positive PUA site is the one that BD owns - Sedfast - but even that one has slut shamers and M/W enthusiasts.
Blackdragon 2016-05-24 18:58:27
Um……..have you been to Roosh’s blog lately? Or Heartiste’s?Those two are perfect examples of what I just said above. Sex positive while they're players, delusional Disney purity fantasists when they get older and want a girlfriend or wife.
I think you’re insufficiently aware of the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance coming from many so called PUAs who are really conservative puritans.And I think you're hyper-emotional about this stuff and need to take a deep breath and calm down.
Alpha 1.0s are slut shaming hypocrites who want to fuck tons of women but want those same women to be pure and innocent till marriage. They have a severe M/W complex.Generally speaking, yes.
Okay, so you answered my question: Most PUAs are slut shaming traditionalists.Most PUAs become that when when they get into their mid-30s or so. While they're banging chicks in their 20s they're sex positive as hell and don't care about monogamy or Disney one way or the other.
The current PUA community is being pushed to the conservative right and away from the libertarianism upon which it seems to have been founded. The conservative denomination seems to be pushing out the libertarian denomination.Correct. It's easier and simpler to be a conservative than it is to be a libertarian (just like it's easier and simpler to be a leftist than a conservative). That's why there are so few libertarians. It requires rationality mixed with self-responsibility...two very scary things.
The most sex-positive PUA site is the one that BD owns – Sedfast – but even that one has slut shamers and M/W enthusiasts.I haven't read any posts there for many months but I'll take your word for it.
joelsuf 2016-05-24 19:50:20
PUAism has truly been a blessing to me over the years. Without it, I wouldn’t be in my current open relationship.IMO, it wasn't PUAism that directly helped you. It was probably just getting an interest in learning how to get with chicks in general that helped you. Hell, a decade ago PUAs could have talked about white knighting instead of negs and it would have had the same effect. Like self improvement, the content itself does very little to help anyone; its the fact that the reader is actually taking action that creates the results. Having dabbled in PUAism for roughly a decade, the only person among the organizations and coaches who gave any REAL advice was David DeAngelo. And if HE was a scammer, then what does that say about all the others? I'm gonna defend this to the ends of the earth on every platform I come across. If you pay any money for pickup advice, then you have just burned it. I'm especially concerned for those who drop several thousands of dollars on bootcamps. RSD now charges what, $3000 to hang out with weirdos who are consistently accused of harassment by meh looking chicks at clubs in Miami and Vegas? And this is from the supposed BEST PUA organization? Give me a break. Its getting so bad that you can get a better value from a free video of theirs on youtube than going to a bootcamp. Is this wrong? Nope. Everyone has to make money somehow. But its not legit. Never was. I followed all of the shitty advice back then but the things that directly helped me were awesome buddies who I could have good times with, which then just led me to be confident and outcome independent anyways. The cringeworthy negs, cold reading, and the routines, while fun little things to do, are NOTHING compared to knowing that you deserve the most attractive chicks and rolling with an awesome group of people who everyone in the place wants to be around to PROVE it. PUAs even 10-15 years ago straight up ignored this, and led boys and men to believe that they can just get laid by spam approaching a place, all by their lonesome. Yeah, good luck with that.
But, at the time, I didn’t really see the slut shaming and prudery that seems to be becoming more prevalent today. The current PUA community is being pushed to the conservative right and away from the libertarianism upon which it seems to have been founded.That's because 10-15 years ago, PUA coaches, organizations, as well as their clients back then had full time jobs and were already successful at life, they just wanted more chicks. Now most "consumers" of PUA stuff are jobless and live in their parents' basement. Their sexual frustration is speaking for them and that's sad.
Blackdragon 2016-05-24 22:28:40
Jesus guys, what's with the negativity on my blog? And with such a positive article?
If you pay any money for pickup advice, then you have just burned it.Absolutely wrong. I paid for PUA ebooks years ago and they helped me out tremendously. I know for a fact that my ebooks help thousands of men. I can't speak to the $3000 bootcamps because I don't do those, but you said ANY money spent for pickup advice is wasted, and you're hilariously wrong. Jack and joelsuf, if you're depressed, angry, or spasticly negative, that's great, but go puke on someone else's blog if you don't have anything positive and helpful to offer. I'm getting tired of both of your comments full of constant negativity, screaming, and whining. Focus on solutions and assistance rather than whining like babies about the problems. Thanks.
Gluteus_Maximus 2016-05-25 01:47:46
I’m especially concerned for those who drop several thousands of dollars on bootcamps. RSD now charges what, $3000 to hang out with weirdos who are consistently accused of harassment by meh looking chicks at clubs in Miami and Vegas?I've actually taken a HotSeat with Owen years back. That was like what, a few hundred bucks. It was well spent. Here's the important lesson from all PUA advice. YOU HAVE TO TRY IT OUT AND SEE IF IT WORKS FOR YOU. MEANING, by experimenting you have to get used to FUCKING UP. Learning that fucking up is NO BIG DEAL. THAT is PRICELESS. and goes into strengthening outcome independence. Paying $3000, to many people, is simply a way of saying to oneself "shit, if I'm gonna pay 3000 bucks, I better fucking go all out and not be a fucking pussy like how I am all the fucking time." If that shit is gonna help you out for the rest of our life, 3000 bucks is fucking nothing. Have you ever heard of offering different tiers of products? To appeal to different kinds of customers? There will always be wealthy customers who only want the premium, because money is not an issue to them. If the price was not high enough, they wouldn't even notice or take it seriously. Nowadays, I get a great deal from just CONFIRMATION from various sources. Confirmation for what I know works = More Conviction = Me learning faster & being more attractive to women. I've bought BD's stuff and also Jeffy's online dating stuff when he released his, and I looked for similarities, differences, nuances that I can build upon. That's part of learning.
led boys and men to believe that they can just get laid by spam approaching a place, all by their lonesome. Yeah, good luck with that.Even after years and years, I still prefer to go out alone. Other guys tend to fuck things up. Especially because women tend to like me the most. Having a dependency on wings is also pretty lame in general. I can meet women anywhere anytime 'cuz my only requirement to be comfortable is me. It's the same with drugs and alcohol. Depending on that shit to feel good or to get women is lame. Also, I don't think you realize how much of an anomaly it is for a very attractive man to be out alone (and not just physically, because I consider myself having a cute face, but that hasn't stopped women from saying I'm hot). You become like a fucking flower to bees. It is 99999999999999x easier to meet women when you're out alone. If you know how to control your mood that is, and not get in your head thinking dumb shit like "oh will she think I'm a loner, a loser," etc. etc., which is another great part to getting used to meeting women alone. It forces you to be on point. It forces you to know how to be confident. It is also 999999999999999x easier to LEARN how to get good with women when you do it all alone. You won't have people pressuring you or judging you when you stumble, and so you can get good at your own pace. And when you know you've made extreme progress on your own, that also makes you incredibly and genuinely confident, and more eager to continue, and not just with women, but with other aspects of your life. I know why when I am among other men, women tend to like me the most. It's in the visceral vibe that I exude. I've subjected myself to a lot of shit that made me have to be fucking awesome. Doing things alone being a common factor, which is something most guys are too much of pussies to do.
joelsuf 2016-05-25 06:55:00
Jesus guys, what’s with the negativity on my blog? And with such a positive article?Can't speak for Jack, but I wasn't trying to be negative, just offering my own experiences in dabbling in PUAism. But I didn't mean to go overboard, sorry. IMO PUA stuff is like any form of advice: A little objective information, a lot of agenda, and Its only as good as the action you take afterwards. Although this shouldn't need to be said, more and more low IQ beta and omega males discover PUAism with the hopes that it will solve their lives. I'm just expressing concern that's all. However you are right BD, I should contribute some positive stuff to the topic. So here goes. For the last 4 or so years of my player lifestyle I have used three simple mottos to micromanage my habits with chicks: "Let curiosity guide you," "Be greedy, not needy," and "balance your expectations, aspirations, and assumptions." I think the first two kinda speaks for themselves, but with expectations aspirations and assumptions I feel like I should explain myself. I always expect the chicks I approach live to be as friendly and mature as I am. Because the golden rule and stuff. If I'm "e-approaching" (online dating approaches) I don't expect a response. I always aspire to get dates and lays from the chicks I approach either online or live. I'm not really emotionally invested in it, but its on the checklist. So in every live approach, I invite when ending the conversation (if I don't already have plans). Online I typically like to chat for about 5 exchanges or so to make them comfortable, then invite/ask for contact info. I assume that the chicks I approach are at least in an open relationship and available to hang out. Again, I'm gonna argue that many PUA organizations (at least nowadays) don't break it down this way. Most of the stuff I say about PUAism is contained in this link: http://strengthbysonny.com/2015/09/06/the-pua-industry-revealed-part-ii-the-main-concepts-pua-gets-wrong/
Anon. 2016-05-25 14:57:27
Are you the author of that website? Just read the Ten Laws On How To Get Girls article and it’s incredible, starting with Law 1. An important point raised there is whether being good with women can be analyzed with logic. I disagree with the article, I think the answer is yes. BD has successfully redefined my understanding of female psychology so in many seemingly confusing cases I can explain what’s going on in the female mind in simple and clear terms. For me, the trick was throwing away everything I thought I knew about women, which in fact wasn’t knowledge but rather incorrectly pieced together bits of misunderstood evidence. And from a clear slate it was rather easy. What do you guys think regarding understanding women by means of logic?
Jack Outside the Box 2016-05-25 15:23:33
Jack and joelsuf, if you’re depressed, angry, or spasticly negative,I cannot be depressed because that is a condition which afflicts only the sexless among us. Spastically negative? I apologize for coming off that way on the Internet. In real life, everyone tells me that I am quite fun to be around (not just my girlfriend). You know BD, you and I should meet in real life, or at least talk on the phone sometime. You'll be shocked at how positive and fun my vibe can be. I just come off radically differently on the Internet, and for that, I apologize. I didn't mean to "puke" on your blog.
I’m getting tired of both of your comments full of constant negativity, screaming, and whining.I apologize for giving that impression. But I'd ask you to reread my last response to Joelsuf. It was a positive response defending the PUA community in terms of how it positively helped me. I didn't mean to bring you down BD. You know I respect you and this place. You've helped me a lot and I wish to reiterate my appreciation. @Joelsuf: You're mostly talking about the commercial PUA community. Most of my knowledge about how to be successful with women which I received from PUA, I got for free through the forums. Experts like Tubarao, JWS, and others helped me greatly in the old days without me ever having to pay a penny. Yes, I did buy some pickup books which helped me as well, but not many. Although I did buy most of BD's material and that was absolutely worth it. I guess I never really paid attention to the old school commercial marketers endorsing mechanical routines and "approach till you drop" mentalities. That's another reason why I appreciated BD's Internet dating products. I'd rather go somewhere where women are already looking for a man instead of cold approaching them on the street which never worked for me anyway. I'm living proof that you don't have to be a cold approach/routine monkey in order to have a successful sex life. If there is some thing I'd ask everyone to pay attention to PUAs about, it's attitude and mindset (so called, inner game). Women are masters at picking up your vibe. If you look good to them and give off the correct energy that will make you feel good to them, everything else will be much smoother sailing for you (barring logistics, gold digger mentalities, etc...).
Focus on solutions and assistance rather than whining like babies about the problems. Thanks.See above. 🙂
joelsuf 2016-05-25 21:26:29
Are you the author of that website?No, I am not Sonny. I'm just a fan of his and IMO his advice is comparable to BD's yet he is only in his mid 20s.
you don’t have to be a cold approach/routine monkey in order to have a successful sex life.True. In fact, being a cold approach/routine monkey will actually make a sex life worse. Having good people skills and a decent social circle and yes to some extent, getting your name out are all you need, as well as having your shit together of course.
If there is some thing I’d ask everyone to pay attention to PUAs about, it’s attitude and mindset (so called, inner game). Women are masters at picking up your vibe. If you look good to them and give off the correct energy that will make you feel good to them, everything else will be much smoother sailing for youI'm going to contend that this is hardly addressed in PUA organizations and if it is, it usually has some kind of gimmick attached to it. Most of it is just a different brand of woo-woo which is hilariously ineffective when compared to actually DOING things to improve your "inner game," stuff like being competitive, learning how to be self sufficient, developing knowledge of self etc. No, instead they want to preach gimmicky woo-woo like meditation, deep breathing, and visualizing. Look, I've learned a lot of good stuff from PUA networks as well, but I can still call a spade a spade. There is hardcore SP in PUAism, and if the wrong kids learn it, they will destroy themselves (and maybe others too). That's all I have to say about PUAism for now. That being said, BD and Sonny (who's blog post I shared earlier) are a breath of fresh air which is nice.
donnie demarco 2016-05-26 08:22:31
Are you the author of that website? Just read the Ten Laws On How To Get Girls article and it’s incredible, starting with Law 1.Interesting, I just discovered that site a week ago and like it a lot. He's another one of the guys who "gets it"; seduction is not a collection of techniques, but rather a manifestation of how you impact the people around you. Like BD (and GLL), he covers a lot of general life topics in a way that is super congruent with his seduction material.
Fraser Orr 2016-05-27 18:58:17
You know I am going to stand up here for the seduction community.
seduction is not a collection of techniques, but rather a manifestation of how you impact the people around you.I'd agree that seduction is mostly about what is inside your brain (something, BTW, that I learned from David Deangelo) but it is also certainly a set of techniques to go with that. Tennis is also about attitude, but it is also a set of specific skills. Let me give you one that I think is particularly cool that I learned from Chase Amante. When you are talking to a girl you met at a party or a bar, after you have established a few minutes of connection you move her to a different location. This is a really powerful technique since it transforms the interaction from you meeting her to you two being together. Another technique I learned from Mystery is that when you are talking to her give her something to hold, or put some piece of clothing on her (hat, scarf etc.) Again that makes you together, and you can even leave the interaction and she is still with you. These are techniques that are very effective. Now of course if you are a pussy boy or look like shit or don't listen to her talking then they won't help, but techniques are a powerful leverage. The main point thought is that the seduction community is a growing body of knowledge. From its early days it has grown and matured like any science. Seduction 2.0 represented by blogs like this, or Girl Chase or many others are outgrowths of these. The manosphere is really a separate thing, and I agree it can often be like feminism with a penis. But true seductionists love women, they are amazing and lovely, if somewhat alien, creatures. Only the fool doesn't thank Newton for his contribution to the modern world, notwithstanding his ignorance of quantum mechanics.
Fraser Orr 2016-05-27 19:00:32
Oh, and BTW BD, on your advice I did look up some of the stuff that David Deangelo is doing today. I almost wept... It was gut wrenching to see.
Blackdragon 2016-05-28 09:12:29
Oh, and BTW BD, on your advice I did look up some of the stuff that David Deangelo is doing today. I almost wept… It was gut wrenching to see.Guys like Eben Pagen and Neil Struass were betas in disguise going through a very temporary Alpha / Thrill of the Hunt phase. Nothing wrong with that; they helped people (I learned a lot from Strauss back in the day). The problem is that it reinforced the false Guy-Disney narrative both in PUA and the manosphere ("If I'm an Alpha and fuck a bunch of girls I can get married someday! Yay!").
Fraser Orr 2016-05-28 12:42:01
Guys like Eben Pagen and Neil Struass were betas in disguise going through avery temporary Alpha / Thrill of the Hunt phase.The thing I liked about Deangelo (Pagen) was that he talked a lot about "inner game", encouraging people to make you a better you. He was really the first person, AKAIK, in the seduction community to be so focused on it. Bluntly, guys like you who are also very much in that realm of thinking are his progeny. For example, in one of his programs that I watched called "Man Transformation" which was basically a video of his seminar of the same name, he had a lot of participants come up and talk. One of those participants was none other than a very young Chris Deoudes, founder of Good Looking Loser (who, BTW provide the link that brought me to your blog.) Though I will grant you that Pagen did suffer a little too much from analysis paralysis. I never really got Struass. He always had a kind of gay affect to me. The lesson of "inner game" is basically "be a man -- live a life worth living, be masculine, live for your own goals not other people's goals, grow a set of balls." Strauss always seemed the antithesis of that to me -- a metrosexual New York nightclubber, who was a fast talking used car salesman. Of course, he, probably more than anyone, brought PUA to the general public, and I suppose that is a good thing.
Lowes 2016-05-29 01:57:10
Hey BD, Longtime lurker here; love your stuff. OI is a simple concept but I’m having trouble understanding this one aspect. Bear with me as I try to articulate it. Can OI people be embarrassed? In theory, a truly OI person is never embarrassed. But at the same time, very few OI people (except for uncalibrated ones) want to do embarrassing shit, like wear stupid clothing or have stupid haircuts or whatever. And you naturally have higher self-esteem when you take the time to look great, smell great, etc. than if you look like shit are are just a mess all over. But shouldn’t a truly OI person not care about this in the moment, since he knows he can always look better later? Is gaining self-esteem this way a sign of lacking OI? Obviously you want to be calibrated when meeting women or talking to friends. But what’s to stop an OI man from going crazy elsewhere? Like acting crazy in public if you want because you’ll never see these people again or walking around in a fancy hotel in shitty clothes just because you’re on vacation? Does embarrassment in circumstances like these hold us back from true happiness if it’s something we want to do? Is the ultimate goal to present yourself in the best way possible and only then stop caring? As in, “I tried my hardest to [get laid/get clients/whatever] in this one circumstance, but it didn’t work. Oh well. At this point, it doesn't matter if these people think I’m [creepy/weird/the worst person in the world] because I made my best effort to not be these things and I’ll have more options in the future to attain these goals.” Whereas if you half-assed it, then you’d be embarrassed? Let’s say you [BD] felt like walking around town in ugly sneakers and ugly shorts and such. It would make you happy because it might be more comfortable than nicer clothes. Or what if you suddenly felt like yelling at the top of your lungs in a mall because you were extremely happy? What would you do? If you’re [back to meaning "anyone"] embarrassed in a particular circumstance, does that mean you’re not OI enough? (You’re too focused on the circumstance rather than the long-term goal.) And if you are embarrassed, does that mean you’re being controlled by SP? (Why not just do whatever you want?) Yeah, all of the above questions/scenarios are attempts to illustrate my point because I’m really having trouble articulating. Apologies for length. Basically - What’s the fine line between OI/embarrassment?
Blackdragon 2016-05-29 23:48:06
Can OI people be embarrassed?Technically yes but in reality no. This is because sometimes embarrassment can be a knee-jerk physiological reaction independent of rational thought, such as a jump scare in the middle of a horror move. Were you actually scared when you jerked back from the screen for a second? No. Were acting on reflex. I can envision some scenarios where a very confident, OI person could be embarrassed, for at least a few moments, if completely surprised and taken off-guard.
In theory, a truly OI person is never embarrassed. But at the same time, very few OI people (except for uncalibrated ones) want to do embarrassing shit, like wear stupid clothing or have stupid haircuts or whatever.A truly OI person isn't wearing correct clothing and haircuts because he fears reaction from others. He's doing it to achieve a means to an end. "I want this huge new client, so I'd better wear a suit to this meeting" is different than "I better wear a suit so people will treat me with respect and my dad will approve of me."
Let’s say you [BD] felt like walking around town in ugly sneakers and ugly shorts and such. It would make you happy because it might be more comfortable than nicer clothes. Or what if you suddenly felt like yelling at the top of your lungs in a mall because you were extremely happy? What would you do?I do this crazy shit all the time. Just two weeks ago I was in a nice restaurant waiting for a table with a woman I'm seeing. While waiting, I started dancing right there, in front of everyone, because I was happy. Needless to say, she was embarrassed and extremely nervous. She started looking around nervously at everyone and asked me, "Um, wa...what are you doing?" I said,"What does it look like I'm doing? I'm dancing like a white guy!" and kept dancing like a nerd. I have done things like laugh out loud by myself in a store for no reason (other than happiness) or scream loud silly shit in public. I'm OI as hell. But could I be embarrassed if you snuck up behind me and pulled my pants down while giving a speech? Sure, at least for a few seconds. I'd probably even blush. Then I'd probably make a quick joke ("This is your rare opportunity to check out the goods, folks!"), pull my pants back up, and continue.
donnie demarco 2016-05-31 15:58:02
I’d agree that seduction is mostly about what is inside your brain (something, BTW, that I learned from David Deangelo) but it is also certainly a set of techniques to go with that.Well my point is that you eventually outgrow techniques. Or at least, you stop thinking in those terms. It's really about experience and mindset. The example you gave (Chase Amante's "move the girl" technique) is a really good one, because highlights the differences in people of varying skill levels: Newbie PUA: Usually forgets to isolate. Gets poor results. Intermediate PUA: Usually remembers to isolate. Gets better results. True Master: Sometimes he isolates, sometimes he doesn't. Depends on the girl, depends on how the conversation went, etc. He makes a custom decision for each girl, and is usually right. Gets the best results.
Gluteus_Maximus 2016-06-04 22:51:08
Needless to say, she was embarrassed and extremely nervous. She started looking around nervously at everyone and asked me, “Um, wa…what are you doing?” I said,”What does it look like I’m doing? I’m dancing like a white guy!” and kept dancing like a nerd.One of the easiest ways to know when a person is an independent thinker, and knows how to be happy. Reminds me of one of the best scenes in GOTG Women love happy men. It simultaneously displays confidence. Especially in front of crowds of people trying to look "too cool." Despite the embarrassment, women love seeing men who give them the impression of "how is it he doesn't care?" At least this is a sign that a woman is more "aware." When a woman feels like she can be more of herself with you, she fucking falls in love with us. (and by being more of herself, I mean letting loose her quirkiness, not less behaved.) This is especially when it's obvious that we have style. Whether we're dressed formally or extremely casually, our wardrobe and how we combine and wear our clothing can still be very aesthetically and viscerally pleasing.
walking around town in ugly sneakers and ugly shorts and such.I don't know why you would own anything ugly in the first place (unless it's context-driven, such as for a costume event, but even then). Casual and comfort doesn't have to mean ugly.
Chip 2016-07-24 17:14:31
Hi BD, i have a question regarding OI. I am currently in the process of building up my business, and its actually going very good (thanks for all the tips!) Even though its built up to be a 2.0 business, its a lot of work now in the early phase. Up until recently, i've had an OLTR which has started to turn cold, saying she is busy all the time etc. The question then rise how much i should try keeping her in my circle. Alltough i fully understand the OI concept, i still believe it will be some work included in finding a new OLTR (time i honestly want to be using on my mission). What is your take on how fast you should just be OI and let an OLTR go vs. actually trying to keep her around / keep showing interest? Love from Norway.
Blackdragon 2016-07-24 20:42:49
What is your take on how fast you should just be OI and let an OLTR go vs. actually trying to keep her around / keep showing interest?It's the exact same process for any other women, regardless of if she's OLTR, MLTR, or FB. You try earnestly to get her back into your life, twice, and if both times she balks, stop contacting her for 4-5 months, then re-ping again.
giulio 2018-01-08 09:13:00
It would be lovely to see your 2018 goals to get inspired! would you do it? I would like to see how you structure them and how they look like (I red your book)