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But Isn’t Marriage Good For Men?
-By Caleb Jones
If you put any stock in studies undertaken by university scientists, you will find myriad examples of the benefits of marriage: 60% of single women reach the age of sixty-five, whereas 95% of married women do. Drug and alcohol abuse among 500,000 young test subjects dropped sharply among those who married. The University of Chicago recently conducted a study that showed married people make twice as much money, have twice as much sex and experience half the domestic violence as those who co-habitate, and the numbers are likely even higher when compared to those who don't live together.
I have discussed marriage and divorce stats many times, particularly here and here, including how the stats can be twisted around into a pretzel to make all kinds of oddball points. Today, I’ll address these various “marriage is good for men” arguments. I’ll break down the above quote into each component, since each tend to be a common defense of traditional, monogamous, legal (non-prenuped) marriage.
60% of single women reach the age of sixty-five, whereas 95% of married women do.
This is talking about women obviously, but the same argument is made for men, in that some stats show that men and women tend to live longer when married. I addressed this point in item number 44 right here, but I’ll describe the problem with it more fully.
When you say something like "married people live longer than unmarried people", you are comparing the typical married person with the typical unmarried person.
Now picture the typical guy who never gets married. Is he an Alpha Male? Is he a healthy, dynamic, motivated, decent-looking, socially calibrated, confident, happy man?
Actually, he’s usually the exact opposite. As much as I hate to say it, the never-married man is most likely an uber-nerd, extreme social recluse, or angry asshole. You know, an extreme MGTOW type or Japanese herbivore man. He never gets married not because he's made the rational decision to maximize his long-term consistent happiness like an Alpha 2.0 would. Rather, the typical forever-unmarried guy never marries for reasons such as:
- He’s terrified of women.
- He’s angry at women.
- He has social problems.
- He’s got mental issues (Aspergers, etc.).
- He suffers from chronic depression, clinical or otherwise.
- He’s hugely overweight and thus is destined to live a shorter life with more medical problems.
- He’s an addict of some kind, and again is destined to live a shorter life with more medical problems.
- He’s a normal guy but dies much sooner than the average man for whatever reason, thus dying before he feels the pressure to “not die alone” and marry later in life as more and more men are doing. (These early dying men skew these stats upward just on their own.)
Drug and alcohol abuse among 500,000 young test subjects dropped sharply among those who married.
Of course it does, because drug addicts are less likely to get married. Drug addicts usually have pretty fucked up lives and are not viewed as good marriage material by the opposite sex.
Do you want to marry a heroin addict? Or even an ex-heroin addict? Or would you prefer to marry a woman who’s never done any hard drugs? I rest my case.
When people quote stats like this, they’re getting it backwards. They’re implying that people who do drugs get married and then suddenly stop because marriage is so awesome. (Yes, this can sometimes happen with unusual exceptions to the rule.) Or that large numbers of single people suddenly start doing drugs if they don’t get married by a particular age because being unmarried is so horrible. Both of these implications are obviously untrue.
The University of Chicago recently conducted a study that showed married people make twice as much money
First of all, this is horseshit. I have never seen a study where married men make double what single men make. I also notice that there is no source for this claim. However, to be fair, there are plenty of studies that show that married men tend to have higher incomes than single men.
It’s the same as with this drug thing. Men who make more money are more likely to get married because they are viewed as higher quality potential husbands to women. Do women want to marry the guy who makes $22,000 a year or the guy who makes $63,000 a year? Again, I rest my case.
In addition, the condition of being married drives your expenses upwards because wives and children cost so much damn money. This puts pressure on you to make more money as a married dude that a single guy doesn’t have. I’m not surprised at all that married men tend to make a little more than single guys who have no wife or kids who are constantly vacuuming money out of their wallets.
If marriage defenders want to accurately demonstrate how great marriage is for a man, they need to measure not the difference in gross income compared to a single man, but the amount of disposable income a married man has at the end of a typical month, after all household expenses, to spend as he chooses freely, vs. that of a single guy. This study will never be done of course, because we all know which of these two men has more monthly disposable cash and financial freedom.
have twice as much sex
Again, there is no study I have ever seen that shows married men have double the sex of unmarried men. However, if you search very hard, you will uncover a few studies where “married people have more sex” than unmarried people. Several folks have thrown a few of these studies at me over the years.
Every time you dig into the numbers of these studies, you always find that the only married people having more sex than unmarrieds are young married people, as in people in their early to mid 20s. Married people over 26 or 27 are having less sex than unmarried people.
If you’ve been reading this blog for a long time, you already know the reason for those numbers. Young married people haven’t been married very long, because they’re young. During the first few years of the marriage, you’re in new marriage NRE, and of course the two of you newlyweds are fucking like rabbits, probably every day.
Do married people fuck like rabbits every day throughout the entire marriage? Ha! Of course not, as just about every long-term married person will tell you. At first, newlyweds go crazy with the sex, but soon dreaded three-year mark arrives, and the amount of sex they have starts to drop like a stone, usually because the wife has reached her biological boredom point and she doesn’t want to fuck her husband anymore.
Then, congratulations, you are now having less sex than you did when you were unmarried, even if you weren’t getting laid very much when you were single. The increased sex you were getting during the first year or two of marriage (that these stats are reflecting) isn’t worth the decreased sex you’ll now experience for the next several decades (assuming you stay married that long of course, which, statically speaking, you will not; you'll get divorced long before you reach "decades").
I have said many times that the sexual activity of married people can only be measured accurately if you study/poll only people who have been married for longer than three years. Adding newlyweds to these studies artificially skews these numbers upward. If you’ve been married for 20 years, and have been having sex with your wife just three or four times a year for the past 18 years, does it really matter if you fucked like rabbits every day for the first two years? Of course not. The key number is the amount of sex you have throughout the entire marriage, not just the first 1-3 years when everything is new and exciting.
I have yet to see a study or poll on the sexual frequency of only married couples who have passed their three year mark. And I know why. Without the newlyweds artificially propping these numbers up, it would instantly murder this “married people have more sex” fallacy.
and experience half the domestic violence as those who co-habitate,
I have not seen this study, but again, if it's true, violent people tend to be losers, and are less likely to get legally married because they will not be judged as good marriage material by the opposite sex. Violent men are violent men, period, as a static condition. The perfectly nice man who suddenly becomes a violent, physically abusive asshole right after he legally marries his wife is a common Hollywood trope, but it doesn’t exist in real life in any statistical size.
Any time someone says that marriage is good for a man and throws some of these silly stats at you, show them this article.
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maldek 2016-08-04 05:57:15
"Again, there is no study" What about this? https://www.quora.com/How-often-do-married-couples-have-sex These number are terribly low but the case can be made, that singles have less sex than the other groups, even in "not-so-young" age groups.
Lon Spector 2016-08-04 05:57:40
They also make that claim about Church attendance. People who go to Church are less likely to be bums. The stats seem to bear that out. You've got to pull yourself together to be "presentable." It's the same with marriage. What's your beef with M.G.T.O.W? Can't they experience the best of both worlds?
Curtis Timsah 2016-08-04 06:35:29
MUST ADD A TIME LIMIT or DEADLINE TO ALL MONOGAMOUS RELATIONSHIPS! Marriage today should be broken up into 2 groups - Traditional and Modern. For more on the new modern concepts of marriage, I recommend a book called "THE I DO" by Susan Gadoua. Traditional marriage simply does not work much anymore in the USA for a slew of reasons that anyone with any brains can figure out on their own. 80% of divorces are started by the women. They are usually the ones that want to be exclusive/married as well. But why is this? It's because we men give in to all their wishes and get too needy and tell them they HAVE US FOREVER! That's right. We place them up on a pedestal way TOO MUCH in America. It has reverse effects and is counter intuitive as well. The only chance we have is to reverse this and make them realize they need to satisfy US instead. But you can't come right out and say it like they can. Instead we add time limits and treat this stuff very coy and biz like is what I have found. What is the key factor between a Traditional marriage and a Modern marriage? After dating a while now it is my theory that the BIGGEST key to ANY monogamous relationship is this: the man setting a deadline or time limit on when the relationship needs to be reevaluated for it to continue. Yep, just start with this tiny issue and it changes a lot! I didn't say it changes everything or that it guarantees success but it is a game changer for sure. If it is a Marriage: Tell her you require removing the wording "Until death do us apart" and see how she reacts. Tell her you want to add an Annual renewal clause to it as well. If it is an exclusive relationship - tell her "let's review this in 90 days OK" and she will respect you more or say no. But it's usually telling as to her intentions and shows you are in charge. Plus it is just fun to f*ck with on this stuff cuz they don't know what to say many times. People are so used to doing shit the same way and when someone throws them a curve ball, they freak out. I have found that making it more Business like and less romantic like (less focus on "love"), might piss the ladies off initially but eventually they come to respect you for being a man and being smart about it. Cuz deep down inside they know they will just drop you like they did their other 3 exs too so why would you be any different? Now you have given them something to think about and set yourself apart from all the other morons. Of course either one of you could call things off before the 90 days is up but that is not the point. What this does it places you, the man, in a power position and shows you are not too needy. It tells her she needs to stay on her feet just like you cuz she could be kicked out for a younger, prettier lady too. By simply adding a time limit to reevaluate things and not having relationships open ended, you totally change the game in my opinion. I am in no way a believer in Traditional marriage or traditional exclusive relationships that do not have a time to reevaluate or contain words about "forever", "till death" or anything remotely close to these. It will fail or cheating will occur 3 out 4 times probably. Additionally, since I propose treating these relationships more like a business deal, don't be afraid to add in post nups, pre nups and even do a polygraph exam before getting married. They only run $500 and could save you a hell of a lot of money down the road! If they will not do one, then you know to stay away. Calls her bluff at least. Maybe you really won't do one but she may not know that. By adding these renewal or reevaluation dates to your relationships, it could also have the added effect of a) preventing you from getting Oneitis; b) helps you keep some focus on self improvement; c) keeps YOU on your toes pleasing her as well; d) allows me to inform other ladies that I was talking to that I am in an exclusive relationship for at least 90 days to see if it will work out (funny the responses this gets from the ladies and this is another whole article by itself). Another little thing I do for fun is I am always dropping new things on them (about every 60 to 90 days) that YOU are doing or going to do independently of them. For example - I told my GF other day I was running late for my lessons. She asked, "what lessons". I said for my Brazilian Ju Jitsu lessons I am taking now. She was like, "oh didn't know you were doing that?". I said, "yep....been wanting to for a while now..." You can replace this with anything that betters yourself and 9 out of 10 times they will assume you are trying to impress other ladies and so they need to make sure they are keeping you happy. But it also makes you more attractive cuz you are doing things WITHOUT her approval. This is why I would keep finances totally separate as well. Again to clarify - I am not for monogamous relationships really. But if you are gonna attempt it, add/remove the Time elements or it's a complete waste of time. This is a great article btw and my comments do not mean to take anything away from it. It is right on! But I do think that we men can change the game (or rules) a little bit if we just use our creativity and biz sense more! Good luck gentlemen =)
Arthur 2016-08-04 07:19:51
PragerU have a video on the 'benefits' of marriage that's getting roundly debunked with similar arguments to the ones you debunk here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtvfHnZMcOY Basically, they argue that marriage is really 'good' for men because it turns them into good, obedient, church-going, hard-working man-slaves. I wish I was kidding. They put the 'marriage premium' at a 20% increase in earnings, which is not remotely enough when you consider the fact that you'll be paying for a wife and kids.
Al 2016-08-04 08:14:19
Why do men (in this day and age) get married at all???? Solely because marriage became the norm and not enough men think outside the box to see that marriage is a total anachronism. If men would stop getting married, thus giving women value beyond their worth, relationships would become more evenly balanced. By the way, I love women and enjoy their company and the passion that can go with some very, very happy times. But I don't need to marry one. Within a marriage, eventually, one partner will come to resent the other. Once resentment has arrived, nothing can save a relationship.
Curtis Timsah 2016-08-04 08:29:18
Totally agree if you are a MAN. If you are a woman, than it can be a great deal for you lol =) The man will be blamed for all the bad and never given credit for any of the good. It's her way of providing herself with a good excuse to take your money. Besides, who in the right mind wants to spend $5k on a stupid ring that devalues, another $5k on a cake and dress, be told what kind of house and school district you gotta live in, and then be bossed around in Lowes in front of all the other single free men! It's embarrassing and makes us look like the morons we have been for many years. Simply put, marriage in the USA is a Scam plain & simple.....
CrabRangoon 2016-08-04 08:36:33
I love that stat that says married men have SO much more sex. That's the biggest crock of shit I've ever read. All married men and women I know barely have sex after a few years as BD stated. The women are not attracted to the nice beta man they married and probably never really were to begin with. They just wanted Mr. safe and stable at that point in their life when marriage pressure was on full blast. I have more sex now than I ever did when I was in a traditional LTR back in the day AND with more than one woman. The variety keeps me happy and honestly keeps the girls happier too since I'm always more amorous with them due to that variety. Good old Coolidge Effect at play!
Evo 2016-08-04 08:52:20
"...have twice as much sex" Well in all fairness they didn't say they had sex with each other, they're probably having loads of sex with people other than their partner! Haha.
CrabRangoon 2016-08-04 09:09:04
@Arthur I just saw this same video recently, probably from a similar site to this one. It does make one barf in one's mouth a bit. They are essentially saying marriage makes you a good little lap dog and corporate wage slave. Hooray! Even the voice in the video screams beta male. Oh yea and Dennis Prager is on marriage # 3-must be working out great for him.
gb_hill 2016-08-04 09:34:59
You should debate Stefan Molyneux.
Pyro Nagus 2016-08-04 09:43:07
Wow, you can practically see the desperation to save monogamy oozing from the article. As BD said once, harems and then later monogamy were introduced to society by desperate men in power to force fidelity onto their wives and prevent other men from touching them. Times have changed now. We can do what we want without being stoned to death. Amongst the greatest perks of a chaotic but free world.
Duke 2016-08-04 09:45:40
Traditional marriage simply does not work much anymore in the USABecause the U.S. is not and has not been a traditional country for a very long time.
for a slew of reasons that anyone with any brains can figure out on their own.
Blackdragon 2016-08-04 09:45:47
What about this?As I always say, you got to dig into the study and really look at the numbers and where they got them. I glanced at it and those numbers to not represent the numbers from the Kinsey 2010 study that I remember. When I get more time I'll look into it.
What’s your beef with M.G.T.O.W?I have a huge article coming next week (or the week after) that answers that question in great detail.
Can’t they experience the best of both worlds?If they're the pro-sex, pro-money MGTOW (like me), they can. If they're the "I'm going to be a loser because what's the point?" MGTOW, they can't.
MUST ADD A TIME LIMIT or DEADLINE TO ALL MONOGAMOUS RELATIONSHIPS!At a minimum, a time limit to when the relationship will either end or when one of you cheats (thereby not making it monogamous anymore).
PragerU have a video on the ‘benefits’ of marriageYeah, I saw that video. It was so ridiculous it wasn't worth even mentioning. It's a shame, since PragerU has some really fantastic videos on economics and history. As usual, right-wingers are half right.
Why do men (in this day and age) get married at all????1. Outdated Societal Programming ("Well, how else can you have kids???") 2. Irrational "I don't want to die alone" thoughts as they get older. (Possibly valid only for men over age 60.)
I love that stat that says married men have SO much more sex. That’s the biggest crock of shit I’ve ever read. All married men and women I know barely have sex after a few years as BD stated.Deep down, everyone knows that already. The only marriages where married people are having a lot of regular sex past the three year mark are the very odd exceptions to the rule or marriages that are not monogamous (open, swinger, poly, cheating, etc). At least 15% of marriages are open / swinger / poly and marital studies aren't going to break these out into their own category, nor are people going to admit on these surveys that they're cheating.
Well in all fairness they didn’t say they had sex with each other, they’re probably having loads of sex with people other than their partner!Exactly. 🙂
Oh yea and Dennis Prager is on marriage # 3-must be working out great for him.Yep. That's the second problem with traditional conservatives: hypocrisy. "It doesn't work and it didn't work for me but you need to do it anyway!"
Blackdragon 2016-08-04 09:47:42
You should debate Stefan Molyneux.I'm going to. He and I have already discussed it. It will be a while though. My calendar is a little full at the moment.
Vitriol 2016-08-04 10:26:50
Why do men (in this day and age) get married at all???? Solely because marriage became the norm and not enough men think outside the box to see that marriage is a total anachronism.I don't know whether to consider it tragedy or comedy, but it's amazing how most of the human race will adapt so quickly to something like the latest iphone with the newest apps for a marginal amount of convenience or entertainment. Contrast this to big picture decisions like marriage, or the job you do for 40+ hours a week and most people really seem to not think or care too much and will often waste years on end in married to a person they don't even like anymore or working a job they can't stand. It's like everyone's brain is a generation behind where we actually are when it comes to things like social institutions and politics. However, we're on the cutting edge of finding newer and better ways to mash away at pieces of plastic with buttons.
Curtis Timsah 2016-08-04 11:10:19
So true lol! Add to this many men will go buy a $300k house that their new wife HAS to have just after they spent thousands on the ring, wedding and honeymoon to prove to her she is worthy?!@#$% When a chic brings up marriage shit now, I just say "sure babe as long as we can agree to do all of this stuff I might consider taking on that kind of crazy nuts risk". Then I just pull out this huge list of my requirements (as a fun prank): - full online tracking of our cells and all text messages and calls 24/7 - full online tracking of both of our cars 24/7 - full access to everyone's email and social media accounts - prenup, postnup and share the cost - sex on demand for both of us but must be a minimum of 3 x per week - we must work or keep the house clean and cook - we must stay about the same weight we are now - since our private parts are of equal value, we must split all wedding costs equal so that neither feels less valuable to the other - both cannot be in college at same time - we both take a polygraph exam before marriage and can request one be done on the other at any time - we both get STD tested every 6 months - neither can play w another member of the opposite sex unless their partner does and it can only be same person they played with - anything/everything sexual in nature must occur together - threesomes are permitted as long as they meet the 2 requirements above - we split all expenses or its a fair split based on our income and have to get big purchases over $50 pre-approved by the other - credit check, background check - we both get to take a vacation away from the other every year - we both get to have friends the other does not know of or ever meet if we choose to - we both get to have our own man cave or room in the house that is ours - if we are watching a new movie or TV series, both must shut up or leave the room! ==== I keep a very serious face and say, "so what do you think?" like I am hoping she says "yes" lol. Priceless
Explainer 2016-08-04 13:42:07
"Daddy, do married men really live longer?" "No, son, it just feel like a hell of a long time."
Curtis 2016-08-04 13:48:13
Too funny! The only possible reason for this is cuz less STD maybe. But I'd rather live a shorter and more fun life than trapped n living hell for long time. Living long time is not always a great thing maybe anyways. Do I wanna live til I'm 130? Not sure I do lol
Blackdragon 2016-08-04 14:31:23
The only possible reason for this is cuz less STD maybe.Nope. Read excuse number 2 right here.
Blackdragon 2016-08-04 14:59:16
– full online tracking of our cells and all text messages and calls 24/7Alpha Male 1.0. I don't care who she calls.
– full online tracking of both of our cars 24/7Alpha Male 1.0. I don't care where she goes.
– full access to everyone’s email and social media accountsAlpha Male 1.0. I don't care who she talks to.
– prenup, postnup and share the costYes. Though I don't need to share the cost. Most women are going to make less money than me anyway.
– sex on demand for both of us but must be a minimum of 3 x per weekAlpha Male 1.0. She can fuck me or not, totally up to her, but if she doesn't (and after a few years she probably won't want to), then fine, I'll be banging hotter/younger women much more often, so the choice is hers.
– we must work or keep the house clean and cookYes.
– we must stay about the same weight we are nowAlpha Male 1.0. Her weight is her choice and my weight is mine. If she gets seriously fat I'll just stop having sex with her and keep banging skinny women on the side. No problem.
– since our private parts are of equal value, we must split all wedding costs equal so that neither feels less valuable to the otherGenerally agree, but a better solution is to have an inexpensive wedding.
– both cannot be in college at same timeNeither should go to college. College is a terrible idea. But if she wants to go, that's her problem. Go ahead and enjoy the student loan debt I'm not paying for.
– we both take a polygraph exam before marriage and can request one be done on the other at any timeJesus. Alpha Male 1.0. to the max. No.
– we both get STD tested every 6 monthsYes.
– neither can play w another member of the opposite sex unless their partner does and it can only be same person they played withNo. The more rules in an OLTR, the more drama and arguments you'll have. As long as condoms are used and other general safety is adhered to, she can fuck pretty much whomever she wants whenever she wants...and so can I. Anything else will create arguments, guarnteed.
– anything/everything sexual in nature must occur togetherFuck no. That's called a Threesome Marriage or a Swinger Marriage, and both of those are essentially a kinky form of monogamy. (Though I agree it's one notch less bad than monogamy, and it does work for many couples, just not me.)
– threesomes are permitted as long as they meet the 2 requirements aboveNo. Threesomes permitted at all times with no rules, and heavily encouraged, as long as both of us want to fuck the third party.
– we split all expenses or its a fair split based on our income and have to get big purchases over $50 pre-approved by the otherMost hot chicks will not be able to afford this, and it's also depends on your age and income as a man. Read this for more info.
– credit check, background checkCredit check, no. We will never have joint debts or assets, so I couldn't care less about her credit. Her credit is her problem. (If you want to get legally married, then yes you'll need a credit check, but you shouldn't get legally married.) Background check, maybe. Depends on the scenario.
– we both get to take a vacation away from the other every yearAgree. Actually, you might need more than one of those per year, depending on your personality.
– we both get to have friends the other does not know of or ever meet if we choose toAlpha Male 1.0. I don't care about her friends and I don't care if she knows about mine or not.
– we both get to have our own man cave or room in the house that is oursYes.
– if we are watching a new movie or TV series, both must shut up or leave the room!Alpha Male 1.0. If she keeps talking too much during a movie/TV show, I just won't watch movies with her in the future.
Makeshift 2016-08-04 15:06:37
"I’m going to. He and I have already discussed it. It will be a while though. My calendar is a little full at the moment." That's definitely going to be interesting. He's smart as fuck and I've never seen anyone but Joe Rogan show him up over the Robin William's thing, but his positions on marriage seem completely untenable.
donnie demarco 2016-08-04 15:47:39
@Lon Specter - What’s your beef with M.G.T.O.W? The problem with MGTOWs is that everything they put forth comes from a place of anger. We all know that traditional marriage is a bad idea. But to a MGTOW, the underlying cause for this is because women are sluts/modern women are low quality/society's standards have fallen/blah blah blah. What MGTOWs fail to realize is that, by making this argument, they are implying that there is some sort of higher standard for marriage and personal relationships, where one can find that special woman who's not like the rest who will love you and stay faithful to you forever. In other words, MGTOWs are still anchored to DISNEY FANTASIES, which is why we constantly refer to MGTOWs as delusional blue pillers; because most of them are. An Alpha 2.0 differs because he understands that women behave the way they do because they've been raised in a world that completely butts heads with their biology. He can love women in spite of their "faults", and doesn't seek a higher standard because he sets his own standards for life. Result: Zero anger.
Marsupial 2016-08-04 16:57:09
and experience half the domestic violence as those who co-habitate,More cart-before-the-horse reasoning. Women marry beta providers, but will hapilly agree to co-habitate with violent assholes.
Addilay 2016-08-04 20:40:44
Does anyone ever think about the children? Children are WAY better off and have WAY less problems when their parents love each other and stay with each other for the rest of their lives. Marriage is the best environment to raise children. It's about the future. The children are the future why do you think there's so much crime when it comes to black people? Cause the fathers aren't even in the kids lives and don't display any good morals and their damaged mom's are the only ones raising them. The problem in America is that we're too selfish and we only think about ourselves, thats why marriage isn't working in America anymore. I've been married for four years and me and my husband have sex about twice a week. We still love eachother so much and have a very good solid marriage and yes we do have kids as well. I didn't marry my husband so that I can make his life miserable or to rob him of everything he has. I married him cause I wanted to do good by him and to be his helper there was no other secret motive. The problem is the people, not marriage. If people enter something together with a selfish mindset of course it's gonna end bad.... I've noticed that the more I gave in my marriage the better my marriage had become.
Blackdragon 2016-08-04 20:52:16
Marriage is the best environment to raise children.Read excuse number 5 here. I think what you meant to say was pair bonded co-habitation is the best way to raise children, which it is, but getting legally and monogamously married just means you'll get divorced and screw up the children at a later time.
I didn’t marry my husband so that I can make his life miserable or to rob him of everything he has.Your intentions on your wedding day are irrelevant. Only your intentions on your divorce day are. Virtually no woman marries a man with ill intent, yet 70-80% of divorces are women divorcing men.
Joelsuf 2016-08-04 21:40:56
What’s your beef with M.G.T.O.W?MGTOW (The anti-sex ones, not the ones who randomly date and not marry) are fighting the same unnecessary war for Supremacy as Feminists are. There is no real difference. Just as Feminists "defy society" by going lesbian, not shaving anything, ballooning up to 300+ lbs and making up their "oppression," MGTOW do the same when they think they are "beating the system" by "choosing" not to date any chicks, chicks who would call the police if they were approached by them anyways. MGTOW and Feminists think in terms of what I call "conspiracy defense." They think that there is a grand conspiracy against them and they are fighting for their own brand of justice. Just watch some of these MGTOW videos on youtube or listen to some of these MGTOW podcasts. They sound just as deranged as Feminists do. In fact, IMO they would be a perfect match for most of these feminists: Both like (and are obsessed with) really nerdy shit, neither compete in anything, neither are masculine at all, both want things without any effort and think that there is a conspiracy against them if they don't get exactly what they want, both resist and despise the opposite sex and attract the same sex (which Feminists don't mind, but MGTOW will still claim that they aren't gay even though many of them act VERY gay). Match made in hell lol. Are there certain MGTOW concepts that are worth some merit? Absolutely! Its because of MGTOW philosophies that I developed the habit of taking time off dating in the winter. I did this two years ago and during my "hunting seasons" (the other seasons except winter pretty much), I've had some really good dates and really good sex with some really cool chicks. I didn't have this kind of experience before.
Can’t they experience the best of both worlds?I'd like an explanation of what "both worlds" is. One of my childhood friends went MGTOW after a really shitty relationship where his gf was pretty much fucking everyone except him and he hated himself and her for it. But different than most MGTOW he doesn't go crazy on social media saying how "feminism is a conspiracy to get everyone to hate men hurr hurr hurr!" I understand this is partially true, but I'm not threatened by it. I'll just adapt to it. I've fucked many a self proclaimed feminist and they don't like today's brand of feminism at all. They just want things to go one ounce better for their own kind, and since we are all supremacists at heart, it makes sense to me although I think its pathetic. I think if we all overcame our "inner supremacist" and just realized that different groups of people just have different forms of advantages and disadvantages, there would be plenty of "social justice."
Way_of_Man 2016-08-04 23:04:35
Virtually no woman marries a man with ill intent, yet 70-80% of divorces are women divorcing men.Boom. This is what I tell the current GF when she brings this shit up once every few months. I basically told her that I believe her in that she wants to be with me forever and has no intentions to leave or do anything vindictive to me. I believe that that's the way she fees right now. But she can't guarantee that she'll feel the same 1,5, or 10 years from now.
Lon Spector 2016-08-05 04:49:10
I'm wondering whether you ever gave any thought to the fact that there might be a conspiracy to divide the genders from each other. After all, the Marxist scum first tried to use "class warfare." That failed because most people hope to elevate themselves economically and need the free enterprise system to do it. Then the Marxist dogs tried to use racial division. This worked better, because there were inequalities in the past. But when minorities were minorities, there wasn't enough to mount a revolution. The great coup was FEMINISM, because it struck at the heart of the family. It got at the "protected" areas. In response to feminism, phony P.U.A. was invented. So the Marxist pigs created a both the problem and the "solution" to the problem. You can see this with a POS like Bernie Sanders. He sold perverted "rape tales" to squib-like publications. People who believe in God have been "played." They have to see both the source and the reasons for the plot.
Tom 2016-08-05 07:30:27
I think it's fine to accept some knowledge from MGTOW, red pill, plus BD's stuffs. As long as the knowledge you taken in are not perceived as radical negativity on your belief system. Mgtow tells people "don't ever date, or touch women at all. They're parasites!" But I still date some of them. Just be careful not dropping into beta zone. Once you're on the way being beta-ish, you're ready to be manipulated by women. I think it's the main message delivered by mgtow.
Harry P. Flashman 2016-08-05 10:13:26
BD, I'm rather new to your blog and man, I wish I had this information many years ago! I've been reading all of your past posts and as a 40-something male who's been through many of the same relationship horrors, man are you spot on. A question for you regarding marriage. Btw, as a divorced man, excellent advice, particularly on avoiding the wonderful institution altogether. But for those who are currently mired in marriage hell, think buddies, have you ever staged, contemplated, planned an intervention? I have a friend, "Bob", who I served with in the military. Bob is a veteran of two wars, worked overseas, used to vacation in Thailand and enjoyed all it has to offer, in abundance. Haha. He was an Alpha who had avoided marriage and kids into his 40s. After Bob met "Jenny", my former Alpha buddy transformed into the biggest pussy Beta I have ever known, including me, who was a huge Beta when I was married. Jenny is an extreme Bitchy Dominant, probably the most horrifically controlling, bitchy, gawd-awful she-devil I've ever run across. He proposed 3 months after meeting her and quickly, his sweet, sexy, loving kitten morphed into a dominant monster. Their engagement was a nightmare for the poor guy. True to form, within weeks of getting married, Jenny chopped her hair off, began wearing her glasses instead of contacts and set out to make his life hell. She has. To say she keeps his balls in her purse is an understatement. I have watched my world-traveling, confident, Alpha Army buddy who used to spend his time banging chicks in Thailand, playing golf and shooting guns, turn into a miserable Beta married guy with zero freedom and little happiness. A couple good examples of his current restrictions: -All activity and schedules approved by wife -No smoking -No drinking beer -No golf unless preapproved (extremely rare) -No shooting unless preapproved -No poker And on and on. Last week the poor man couldn't go to the range because he had to take his 2 year old (2!) to dance lessons. Seriously. The question is, what can be done? Can you effectively stage an intervention to restore the testicles and dignity to this once proud Alpha? Can the betaization process be reversed without causing him to get divorced? Much thanks for your insight. HPF
Blackdragon 2016-08-05 10:42:37
MGTOWI have a big blog post going up on Monday addressing the MGTOW arguments. Be here Monday to see the fireworks.
I’m wondering whether you ever gave any thought to the fact that there might be a conspiracy to divide the genders from each other.I don't think feminism or PUA is a conspiracy. I think they're reactions (and in the case of feminism, an over-reaction) to ever changing social forces. I do think that true leftists prefer as many people reliant on goverment, which means they're (indirectly) not going to like things like stable, pair bonded relationships with two responsible people who don't rely on government largess. (Nothing secretly pisses off a leftist like people like me, those who are 100% self sufficient and require no financial assistance from anyone.) That's why not only do we live in a welfare state, but state and federal governments spend millions of dollar actually advertising welfare services to get more people on them (Obamacare in particular, but there are many others).
Blackdragon 2016-08-05 10:49:03
The question is, what can be done? Can you effectively stage an intervention to restore the testicles and dignity to this once proud Alpha?You can't want change for someone else. They must want it. Therefore an intervention is not likely to work at all unless your friend has already stated that he's looking for a way out of the marriage. I very much doubt this is the case. Something like an intervention will make him just feel shitty and defeated, and get him to be defensive about his horrible wife. "Well yeah, she can be a bitch sometimes, but she's not really that bad, guys..."
Can the betaization process be reversed without causing him to get divorced?It can be done but A) it's extraordinarily difficult so he has to be ready and B) it requires him to accept the possibility that the marriage may not survive it. Since oneitis means B is untrue, again, it makes it all unlikely. Assuming A and B are true for him (very unlikely), my book on open marriages is about how to convert from beta to Alpha inside of a relationsihp. Athol Kay is also a good resource for that.
dj 2016-08-06 09:52:08
Harry - go to married red pill on reddit for your buddy, also Dave from Hawaii story on heartiste is relevant, as well as BD's writings. But in the end, as BD says, your friend has to want this himself
Anthony 2016-08-06 13:02:56
Two of my friends will be getting married next month. I know they are both making a mistake, but they are paying for the food and alcohol, not me. Therefore, I'm going. As for me, there is no need to get married, especially since I will be in the military. No money grubbing bitch is getting her hands on my military benefits.
Gil Galad 2016-08-06 16:22:31
BD, I'm asking you here because the relevant article is overstuffed with comments and I assume you don't read them. In the case of boomerang women whom you contact after 4+ months of radio silence (or who contact you with signs of interest), you say "proceed as normal into her pants", does that mean the second date rule is suspended ? Do you invite the girl over at your place and escalate then and there ?
Joelsuf 2016-08-07 07:11:14
I have a big blog post going up on Monday addressing the MGTOW arguments. Be here Monday to see the fireworks.hehe, Can't wait! I wonder if it will be similar to Xplat's post on MGTOW: https://xsplat.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/but-x-not-all-men-can-do-what-you-do-cant-we-all-just-let-them-mgtow/
The great coup was FEMINISM, because it struck at the heart of the family. It got at the “protected” areas. In response to feminism, phony P.U.A. was invented. So the Marxist pigs created a both the problem and the “solution” to the problem.That is accurate, only it isn't Marxists (at least not the original supporters of Marx and Engels) who purported that. It was wild Russian Statists who perverted it and then used the concepts of class and race that Marx and Engels began developing in the Manifesto to create their own perverted concepts of class and race. What many don't understand is that in the late 1800s, Russia was the nation who wanted to create a master race. They were going to use "communism" to achieve it (using a "worker friendly" term like "communism" was much more effective in tricking workers and voters into believing they would actually be the same as the ruling class. Trotsky would talk about it quite a bit directly, while Lenin would refer to it as an obscure reference to try to win over people, people who didn't like what Trotsky was saying. This was about the same time as The Red Scare I believe. Sorry about rambling, I have a background in history and Sociology and get a bit uncomfortable when Marx is demonized. His concepts had good intentions, but they got perverted by power hungry statists. But then again, maybe his demonizing is well deserved, after all, Milton Friedman's powerful phrase "There is nothing as bad as good intentions" rings true. What Marx wanted, his concept of "communalism," was what would today be called Anarchy: Voluntarism and Self-Rule in small, close knit communities. He lumped the ruling class and the bourgeoisie together much like Libertarians lump the government and corporations together today. All he wanted was to create an even playing field at a time where the bourgeoisie really DID own 99% of the wealth (which is now owned by the government today). So I suppose things backfired a bit. Meh. Nothing as bad as good intentions :/
Gil Galad 2016-08-07 12:29:01
I wonder if it will be similar to Xplat’s post on MGTOWhaha very interesting link joelsuf. "Men and women are wired to cockblock each other" was gold. I also agree with his main point.
elitemanhood 2016-08-08 08:46:40
Very Astute advice.
Skyler 2016-08-13 01:18:06
A debate with Stefan Molyneux would be amazing!! That man is a force of nature and I love the work he does. His views on marriage though, thats about the only thing I think is flawed. So it would be great to see 2 minds that agree on so much debate this. I'll be so excited to experience this debate!
Harry 2016-08-13 20:18:10
Hey BD, Thank you for the article. Question - if your OLTR moved in to your house to live with you, would you charge her rent? She's allowed to fuck other guys (which she will most likely), so allowing her to live rent free and giving her other resources and then watching her go fuck other guys for free seems like a sucker's bet. If the girl pays for herself completely (!) then I agree that open relationship is the least bad option based on your writings. Thanks, H
Blackdragon 2016-08-13 23:44:24
if your OLTR moved in to your house to live with you, would you charge her rent?An OLTR you live with should contribute financially to the household unless you are extremely wealthy and/or there is a huge disparity between what you and her make in terms of monthly income. Even then, she should probably contribute something.
She’s allowed to fuck other guys (which she will most likely), so allowing her to live rent free and giving her other resources and then watching her go fuck other guys for free seems like a sucker’s bet. If the girl pays for herself completely (!) then I agree that open relationship is the least bad option based on your writings.Again, it's an issue of income disparity. If you make $20,000 a month, and she makes $1500 a month, I don't think her not paying for 50% of the rent (which she likely would not be able to afford anyway, since you'd probably live in a nice place) would matter. If your argument is that she should contribute something based on her low income, then I agree with you.
Tin Man 2016-08-14 06:24:53
Hey BD ... just thought I'd throw my two cents into the fountain ... Anyone that has done "research" understands there is a bias associated with it - it is a very, very rare research project that starts as a simple question to answer, with the researchers having no idea where the answer will lie, or the twists and turns of the journey. Observationally, my assumption is 80% of all published research is ALWAYS slanted to a bias. That being said, the only real proof is personal truth - the lives many real mean have lived. I was married, I have three great kids. For me, sex become something of a rarity, the last few years of my marriage, I wanted less sex with my (x)wife. I didn't have any real desire for her anymore. And I had accepted my "lot" in life and was just wasting away - working to make money to buy things I could care less about to have a life that I really didn't want. Did I make more money - yes, in fact, I made more then. Did I have more money for me, to do the things I wanted to do? No - I worked so my family could have things, not for me to have things. I find it interesting you made that point about "money" - from the simple aspect, you make more as a function of people "needing" more. That consumption, that hungry machine, never stops running - my (x) wife want things, she wanted things for her and our kids, my kids wanted things, because they are trained to want things - by her and by society at large. And the mule pulling the plow was me. And the mule got so tired, he didn't give to shits whether he "gave" anything more (i.e. sex) - he'd rather just go to sleep, because he knew, tomorrow would be just another day of pulling the plow, and being screamed at and whipped to move faster. That realization only happened AFTER I was divorced. A life lived as a mule, is not a very good life.
Harry 2016-08-14 09:34:12
Thank you for the reply, BD! In regards to OLTR, what rules would you recommend for dating other people? Would there be a limit on e.g. number of dates allowed per a potential FB? I know OLTR means only FBs on the side, no MLTRs. However, a man will likely need a few dates until sex with a potential FB. IMO a woman can easily find FBs without dating as that is a dream arrangement for most guys, but would you not feel better if your OLTR got to know her potential FBs for safety reasons, instead of fucking them without knowing their name? On the other hand, maybe other guys taking out your OLTR on expensive dates would damage your relationship and raise her expectations? Thanks, H
Blackdragon 2016-08-14 10:33:35
Anyone that has done “research” understands there is a bias associated with it – it is a very, very rare research project that starts as a simple question to answer, with the researchers having no idea where the answer will lie, or the twists and turns of the journey. Observationally, my assumption is 80% of all published research is ALWAYS slanted to a bias.Correct. That's why you need to take a large amount of stats from various sources and form some kind of aggregate. And even then it won't be 100% accurate, but it will be indicative of the truth.
That realization only happened AFTER I was divorced. A life lived as a mule, is not a very good life.Yup. That's marriage.
In regards to OLTR, what rules would you recommend for dating other people?It's radically different from OLTR to OLTR. There are so many different kinds (swinger, open marriage, threesome marriage, etc,) All I can recommend is: 1. As I talk about in my book, you want the minimum number of rules, because the more rules in a relationship, the more drama you will experience. 2. You want rules that are light enough that you can live with them for many years (10+) without damaging your happiness.
Would there be a limit on e.g. number of dates allowed per a potential FB?I would never have such a rule, but that's me.
I know OLTR means only FBs on the side, no MLTRs. However, a man will likely need a few dates until sex with a potential FB.Correct. This will need to be allowed in most OLTRs. You only need 1-3 quick dates to get to sex though (under my system), nothing romantic.
would you not feel better if your OLTR got to know her potential FBs for safety reasons, instead of fucking them without knowing their name?In my opinion, and this is just my opinion based on my own personal preferences and not advice, is that once a woman gets to OLTR status, I'm already at the point where I trust her to behave safely, correctly, and like an adult, because I've observed her do so over a very long period of time. Otherwise she would never get to OLTR and have to remain an FB or MLTR. So no, I would never have such a rule and would just trust her (and downgrade her if she really fucked this up).
maybe other guys taking out your OLTR on expensive dates would damage your relationship and raise her expectations?Again, this would not happen with a woman I had already been with for over a year who I knew very well before I upgraded to OLTR, including such a woman who was already playing around with such men. The questions you're asking assume that you're going to make a stranger into an OLTR very quickly, like within 2-3 months. That's not how you do an OLTR. OLTR takes a very, very long time to qualify for.
Phero 2016-08-25 08:57:52
I've never been married, but after a couple decades of observations I see very few marriages that are great or even just good for both. Amount of years married doesn't make much difference, and just like work, so many people will not leave or change their marriage or job. Most married men end up betafied. The only more betafying than a wife is a wife and a daughter. My previous generation were all "till death do us part", it's a tough pill to swallow so having an outlet to vent away from people around you can be helpful. But after that, i agree 100% you have to block it all out and live and let live or die or whatever anyone wants to do.
Justin Roitman 2016-08-26 19:17:42
commercials routinely paint a portrait of the idiot husband whose wife is smarter and more capable than he. Or perhaps therein lies the rub. If women no longer expect or even want men to “take care of” them — since women can do everything men can do and better, thank you very much, feminism — perhaps the flipside is the assumption that women don’t need to take care of husbands, either. And if no one’s taking care of anyone, why the hell marry?
J.A. 2018-01-01 14:23:42
Another messed-up marriage story: I was on this sports blog yesterday (a Denver Bronco blog because I am a fan of the team). One of them was talking about one of his relatives, and about how this guy loved to hunt until he got married, and his wife told him that he couldn't anymore. Pathetic. I also had another friend who's girlfriend used to whine about his hunting. And, two guys who he was in bands with had problems with their wives after he got married. One guy had to give music up totally, and the other one was having problems with his wife (she hated that he was in a band). I don't know how people put up with it.