Get Free Email Updates!
Join us for FREE to get instant email updates!
Relationships: How to Downgrade or Upgrade
I’ve spoken about downgrading and upgrading women in FB, MLTR or OLTR relationships before, but I’ve never gone into detail regarding exactly how it’s done. Today I’ll show you.
-By Caleb Jones
Upgrading can only be done by you. A woman cannot upgrade herself. Of course a woman can ask for or demand that you upgrade her, but only you can actually do it. You never upgrade a woman just because she asks. If you do, it’s likely because you're suffering from oneitis and/or scarcity mentality. Upgrading is something you do only after a lot of thought and calm, rational decision making.
Upgrading is also not something you do purely based on your feelings. As you older guys already know, sometimes you can have strong feelings for a woman who would not make a good long-term partner (MLTR or OLTR in this case). Upgrading someone just because you have feelings and for her and no other reason is a recipe for drama and problems down the road.
You may upgrade a woman when all the following conditions are true:
1. You have strong enough feelings for her, or think you likely can.
2. She has demonstrated a long track record of happy, low drama, low jealousy behavior with lots of enthusiastic sex. Important to remember: this is what she does, not what she says or promises. As always, ignore what she says and only watch what she does. “Long track record” can mean whatever you want it to mean, but my minimum is usually six months, and almost always after The Talk.
3. Her life is workable and not crazy. You shouldn’t be upgrading any women who are hardcore drug users, have super stressful lives with work or family, have massive health problems, or other things like that. Again, doing this will just result in problems for you down the road.
If all three of those conditions are true, you can upgrade her if you wish. If not, she’s not worthy of an upgrade. Maybe she will be later. Just keep being with her at her current relationship level and watching her.How Do You Upgrade?
If she’s a FB you’re upgrading to an MLTR, you just do it. There is no discussion or talk. Just do it and enjoy it. Now that she’s an MLTR, you’re allowed to spend the night with her, take her out on romantic dates, discuss emotional topics with her, and experience other MLTR aspects. You still need to keep a 100% Alpha and nonmonogamous frame of course, and still need to be having sex with other women. Don’t get oneitis! Don’t get de facto monogamous! Getting an MLTR is not a license to start being a beta.Upgrading an MLTR to an OLTR is serious business and much more complicated. It requires a second talk called the OLTR Talk, similar to The Talk but a little more detailed and expansive, mostly covering what you both want for your futures. Do you/she want kids? Do you/she want to get married? Are you/she going to be moving out of the city or country at some point? Do you/she have any problems in your family? What’s your/her financial situation look like? Does she understand you’ll never be 100% sexually monogamous, even if you do things like get married? These kinds of things and many other are discussed in The OLTR Talk, and the specifics of exactly how to have this talk are beyond the scope of this post. (I will extrapolate more on this in a future book I'll be releasing next year.)
If she passes the OLTR Talk (and many women won’t!), then congrats, she’s your OLTR. You are no longer allowed to have any MLTRs, and all the women on the side must be FBs or one night stands only. On the plus side, you can now treat her like a full-on girlfriend and even use that word to describe her to others. You may now do things like see her more than once a week (if you want), meet each other’s family, move towards moving in together (if you want), and other heavy stuff. Again, you need to keep your frame though! Love her all you want, but don’t get oneitis, soft next her whenever you need to, keep sexing women on the side (at least sporadically), and keep your balls. Having an OLTR is not a license to start being a beta.
FBs cannot be upgraded to OLTRs. Upgrading an FB right to an OLTR would be insane. Consider an MLTR a “level” that a woman must enter and “graduate” from before she becomes your OLTR. I’ve had only two OLTRs in my life (one of them you could argue wasn't even a full OLTR), and both of them took years at the FB and MLTR levels before I finally upgraded them to OLTR. OLTRs are great if you have the balls and the frame to do them, but the more reluctant and careful you are to upgrade women to an OLTR, the better your life will be.
As you might expect, downgrading a relationship is a little more dicey than upgrading. Upgrading is always a happy event that both you and her will enjoy. Downgrading is quite the opposite.
Downgrading should occur when one or more of the following become true:
1. You miscalculated and gave her MLTR or OLTR status when you should not have. This can happen sometimes no matter how careful you are. I’ve done it a few times with a MLTR or two in my day.
2. She starts giving you drama or problems, but such that aren’t quite serious enough for a soft next. Examples would be things she does that mildly irritate you or attitudes about life she has that you can’t stand. These things are not (necessarily) soft nextable offenses, but they are signals that perhaps this woman should be downgraded to a relationship that’s less serious.
3. Her behavior with you is great and stays great, but her life outside of you changes for the worse. Maybe she starts drinking too much or doing drugs. Maybe she becomes promiscuous in ways that threaten you (she doesn’t use a condom with men, or has a lot of drunk sex with men). Maybe she suddenly finds Jesus and starts lecturing you about religion or starts making frequent judgemental comments. Maybe she has a radical shift in her family or social life, like her horrible mother moves in with her or her best friend becomes seriously problematic. Even if your relationship stays fine, these are all signs that trouble may be coming, and a downgrade to FB is likely in order.The beauty of FB relationships, and one of the reasons I’ve always loved them so much, is that a woman’s life can be fucked up, and it’s perfectly okay. If she’s an MLTR or OLTR, her life needs to be reasonably smooth and even-keeled. But if she’s an FB, hell, she can be as crazy and screwed up as she wants. She can do drugs, get drunk all the time, fuck guys left and right, have a boyfriend, be a total bitch to everyone (except you of course), go bankrupt, have a totally fucked up life, and it’s perfectly fine, sometimes even preferable (those crazy chicks are wonderful in bed!). Just make sure you wear condoms with her! Don’t be stupid.
Downgrading a woman to FB frees you of having to worry about all that crap. It’s nice. Downgrading, when it’s needed, is a good thing, for both you and her, and should not be feared. Just like with soft nexting, if you are afraid to downgrade a woman who needs it, then you probably have oneitis, and this should be a huge warning sign that you might be turning into a pussy.
How To Downgrade
Just like with soft nexting, downgrading requires you to have some level of confidence, outcome independence, and an Alpha frame. If you have oneitis, or are de facto monogamous, or are a beta, you probably won’t downgrade at all. Even if you try, you’ll probably do it wrong and just create more conflict and drama. Downgrading, when it needs to be done, must be done, and must be done correctly. Be strong.
One key item about downgrading: realize that she may just leave you. If you do this stuff right, it usually won’t happen, but it can. Be aware this is a distinct possibility and be prepared for it. If you’re taking my advice, you’re seeing multiple women already, so it should be no big deal.
Obviously, you can’t downgrade a FB, since FB is already the lowest level of nonmonogamous relationship. If an FB gets problematic, all you can do is soft or hard next, or back way off on the frequency you see her. I’ve had FBs that I only saw once every 6-8 weeks or less. Perfectly fine.
When downgrading from an MLTR to a FB, you just do it. There is no discussion at the outset. Say nothing. Just stop going out with her (hang out at your place or hers instead), and back off on the romantic stuff. Of course she will pick up on this and ask you what’s going on. Simply tell her, using your own words, that the two of you were going too fast and you need to back off a little bit. Be prepared for drama, because you might get some. (If you do, you know what to do: instant soft next!)
If she keeps her cool, you’re welcome to have a brief conversation about what you’re doing and why. A few dont’s here:
- Do not get into a long, drawn-out conversation. This is what she will want. Be a man and don’t fall for it. Mentally set a time limit for about 10 minutes, then end the conversation. Physically leave if you have to. Many of you more extroverted guys, or guys who lean in the Alpha Male 1.0 direction, will fall into her trap of having an hour long conversation with her that solves nothing and just riles up both of you for no reason.
- Do not use the words “casual,” “fuck buddy,” or “friends with benefits” in the conversation. This will set her off and you’ll hurt her feelings and get a mountain of drama for your trouble. Use words like having a more “relaxed” or “chill” relationship instead.
- Do not be afraid to soft next her ass right then and there if she starts giving you real drama. If she raises her voice, screams at you, starts crying “at you,” threatens you, throws down ultimatums, insults you, or anything like that, instant soft next! This is a good thing, since after the next is over and the relationship resumes, you will have demonstrated to her with crystal clarity why the relationship needed to be downgraded in the first place.
- Do not be a robotic asshole. Some of you more logical, rational, or INTJ guys like me are just going to robotically state the facts and then get irritated when she reacts emotionally. Try to have some empathy. I sometimes have trouble with this myself, but do your very best to not forget that you’re talking to an emotional, sometimes irrational woman, not a man, and not a computer. Be strong, but be nice too. It's possible to be both at the same time. (That's Alpha Male 2.0 in a nutshell; very strong, doesn't take any crap, but also nice and relaxed.)Downgrading an OLTR to a MLTR is tough. It will certainly require a very clear discussion right up front about what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. In some cases, it will be uncomfortable but the transition will be a smooth one. In other cases, she’s going to be so angry or hurt that she’s just going to leave you altogether. As I said above, you should be prepared for this possibility anyway. And as I always say, if you do this right, the odds are very high that she’ll come back to you at some point down the road anyway, so don’t worry too much about it.
Downgrading an OLTR to an FB is going to be near impossible, but you could try it if you want. It’s usually easier to slowly downgrade them to an MLTR first, then if you want to keep going, downgrade to a FB later if you still want to.
If you date many MLTRs and find that you need to downgrade one or two, then it’s no big deal. It happens to the best of us, and often it’s not even our fault. Sometimes women trick us into thinking they’re something they’re not. Sometimes women change. It happens.If you have to downgrade an OLTR, then that’s different. That usually means you fucked up. You upgraded a woman to OLTR that should never have been upgraded, and that’s on you. Once the downgrade is complete, you need to do some serious self reflection about what you did, why you did what you did, and how you can avoid making the same mistake in the future.The same goes for if you’re downgrading MLTRs all the damn time. Downgrading should be a reasonably rare occurrence. If it’s happening left and right, then you’re doing this all wrong. You’re just assigning most or all women you have sex with MLTR status when they should be FBs. Some likely reasons you’re doing this are:
1. You’re getting needy / oneitisy.
2. You feel guilty about having sex when not in a serious relationship. If that’s the case, you need to read this and this right now.
3. You’re dating a lot of over-33 women who are all demanding MLTR (or higher) status when they don’t deserve it, and you’re caving in to their demands.
4. You’re a hyper-emotional guy and have no emotional control, when means you need to get some.
So that’s the deal on upgrading and downgrading! It’s a necessary skill if you want to get good at these kinds of relationships.
Want over 35 hours of how-to podcasts on how to improve your woman life and financial life? Want to be able to coach with me twice a month? Want access to hours of technique-based video and audio? The SMIC Program is a monthly podcast and coaching program where you get access to massive amounts of exclusive, members-only Alpha 2.0 content as soon as you sign up, and you can cancel whenever you want. Click here for the details.
Get Free Email Updates!
Join us for FREE to get instant email updates!
Sean 2016-10-03 06:39:04
Thanks for writing this!!
Parade 2016-10-03 14:32:38
Upgrading is also not something you do purely based on your feelings. As you older guys already know, sometimes you can have strong feelings for a woman who would not make a good long-term partnerSo true...there's someone I'm seeing with generally very low drama and such, but if we end up spending more than a week(at most) together we can't stand each other. Works great as an MLTR, but would be terrible as an OLTR.
Duke 2016-10-03 14:41:25
So true…there’s someone I’m seeing with generally very low drama and such, but if we end up spending more than a week(at most) together we can’t stand each other. Works great as an MLTR, but would be terrible as an OLTR.BD mentioned that seeing her more than once a week was only an option, not obligatory, but I'm wondering if it's even possible to see a OLTR once a week.
Parade 2016-10-03 14:43:59
And I know I'm breaking the BD rules by spending a week with a non-OLTR, but shit, sometimes you want to go on vacation with someone you can fuck. Ain't no way I'm waiting to have an OLTR that I'll probably never have(because I don't see the point) for that.
Blackdragon 2016-10-03 15:00:32
BD mentioned that seeing her more than once a week was only an option, not obligatory, but I’m wondering if it’s even possible to see a OLTR once a week.It's certainly possible, but unless that once-a-week visit is very long (like 48 hours+), she's going to complain and you'll have to manage that.
I’m breaking the BD rules by spending a week with a non-OLTR, but shit, sometimes you want to go on vacation with someone you can fuck.You're going to spend an entire week, 24/7, on a trip with an non-OLTR that you won't be able to soft next? Prepare for drama on your trip then. Your odds are 80%+ you're going to get some. If you don't care, then no worries. (I would care, but that's me.)
Parade 2016-10-03 15:18:29
I've done it before with no drama. I'll do it again with no drama. I would not be doing it with any chick I'm seeing, but I will with a chick that has proven that she's able to handle it. Further rules: she has to have been MLTR quality for at least a year, very low drama(once in a year? sure, more than once? No way) If she ever starts something on the trip, never again. Not more than one one week trip in a year with any given chick. I also generally don't see her much before. Once or twice in the month leading to it and after it. EDIT: But her personality and past actions are the most important consideration there.
Blackdragon 2016-10-03 15:24:06
I will with a chick that has proven that she’s able to handle it.Ah, that's changes things. Good. To everyone else reading, please don't take any random MLTR for a week-long trip and expect no drama. Odds are drama will occur.
Thato 2016-10-03 16:06:12
Damn it BD, it's like you read my mind and just delivered the goods. I bought your book about 3 months ago and I now have 3 women on rotation. First ever book I bought online and I don't regret it. I upgraded one of them, a girl who's virginity I broke and well...kinda had to have an impromptu "The Talk" with her after you told me to stop being a dumbass and come out clean to her(I met her a month before buying Unchained Man) It kinda went well...I don't know, I told I loved ger but sexual monogamy wasn't what she was gonna get from me. She hugged me for a while. I felt guilty. Like I wished I met her after I read BD'S book but oh well. Then she made food, and while I was watching TV, I could hear her crying in the kitchen. She pleaded and pleaded with me to think about this, Goddamn, all I could hear in my head was BD'S voice saying "Don't be a little bitch, keep your frame". I did. And like BD says, she doesn't have to like it but she must accept it. And I thought she did. But damn it, the last couple of weeks has seen her throw some tantrums a bit. Always over text and never in person. I've nexted once before, worked a bit, but she's back it. So I thought one couldn't downgrade an MLTR, from there I thought all I could was hard next her. Thanks for this. I'm downgrading her as I'm sure another soft next won't do nothing. Though I've got a feeling I'm getting dumped soon lol. Oh well, back to my daygame grind then. Greetings from South Africa!
Blackdragon 2016-10-03 17:22:31
I bought your book about 3 months ago and I now have 3 women on rotation. First ever book I bought online and I don’t regret it.Glad I could help!
But damn it, the last couple of weeks has seen her throw some tantrums a bit. Always over text and never in person. I’ve nexted once before, worked a bit, but she’s back it.Next her again. And again. And hard next her if she keeps it up. Never put up with that crap. Never.
Gamli 2016-10-04 05:41:25
If I am a virgin 24 about to get in colleague, that book can help me? I am going to learn and from the side develop my blogs and stuff. there is no way I wont go to colleage sorry. it is not usa. I am from the middle east. the road to alphamale 2.0 in the business stuff is a little curvy in my state. this book can help me in my 20'? because I dont own a house yet and I am a virgin?
Blackdragon 2016-10-04 11:00:27
If I am a virgin 24 about to get in colleague, that book can help me?Yes. A lot. In some ways, The Unchained Man is the book I wish I had read when I was your age.
Carlito 2016-10-04 16:42:07
Got an urgent situation I'm hoping I can get a quick answer on. I've been seeing this girl for 1.5 years and then she met some other guy (fucked him while we were exclusive - but not bf/gf) and tried downgrading me into the friendzone. I said no deal, did no contact, she came back and we had sex 2 weeks later after she put the other guy in the friend zone. She came back another time but things between us were not like they were before. She wouldn't text me for days and was hesitant about coming over. Didn't call me affectionate names in her texts, things just weren't the same. On the day of my flight for a 2 week vacation in South America (yesterday), she agreed to come over. Had sex, everything was good, and now she's acting like she wants to have my babies again. Today she asks me if I'm going to hang out with my old fuck buddies over here .. as if we're still exclusive. Says "I'm just scared you'd do something because I did something with that guy". I don't want to be exclusive, but I don't know how to say this to her over text without ending things. There are a couple of good pages on letting your partner be free (around the 130 mark) in the book "How to live free in an unfree world". I thought about maybe sending her those. I've been meaning to buy your book on open relationships, Blackdragon. Thought I'd read it over these 2 weeks and then know how to move forward. Now after what she said I feel like I can't fuck any girls here without doing so behind her back. This really is unfair to me, shutting me out for months and now that I'm in a place where girls throw themselves at me I'm supposed to turn them down?
Gil Galad 2016-10-04 17:01:42
she asks me if I’m going to hang out with my old fuck buddies over here .. as if we’re still exclusiveShe's saying this over text while you're in different countries ? Don't reply, and if she asks again say something dismissive (make fun of her jealousy, or agree and amplify etc). Same with the “I’m just scared you’d do something because I did something with that guy” part: don't take the bait, and if she keeps asking, just say that you don't do things out of revenge but avoid explicitly stating that you're fucking girls anyway. If she insists too much, you can throw a "you're being pretty nosy given that we've barely back in business. Chill out"; next step (if she continues) clearly state that she needs to stop asking (since you're not at all in a situation to have "The Talk" about an open relationship), next step soft next or hard next.
This really is unfair to me, shutting me out for months and now that I’m in a place where girls throw themselves at me I’m supposed to turn them down?Of course it is unfair. Your frame with her is far from rock solid, she knows it, so she will take from you whatever she can get away with, if you let her. If you were outcome independent about her staying or leaving you, you wouldn't have this problem. Do not engage her logically over text and for chrissake, don't send her any pages from a book (I read that one by the way).
ETA 2016-10-04 17:31:27
You say that downgrading OLTR to FB is near impossible, but I see it happen quite often with serial monogamists where they hook up after they break up. Or would this fall under a different label, cause I know you're a bit nit-picky about the semantics 😉
Blackdragon 2016-10-04 18:20:57
Got an urgent situation I’m hoping I can get a quick answer on.https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl
You say that downgrading OLTR to FB is near impossible, but I see it happen quite often with serial monogamists where they hook up after they break up.That is not what happens, not even close. A boyfriend doesn't go to his monogamous girlfriend and say, "Hey, let's stop dating and being boyfriend and girlfriend. I still want to fuck you though. Sound good?" and the girlfriend says, "Yeah! Great idea!" No. Instead, they break up with all the usual drama and bullshit, and a few weeks or months later when the anger and investment have died down, they hook up a few times. They don't even become regular FBs, since "hook up a few times" is not an FB (though I admit there are exceptions to this sometimes).
Or would this fall under a different label, cause I know you’re a bit nit-picky about the semanticsI am never nitpicky about semantics. I am nitpicky about facts. 2 + 2 = 4, not 5, and monogamous girlfriends don't suddenly get downgraded to FBs.
Carlito 2016-10-04 21:56:37
@Gil Galad Thanks for your reply. I feel like no matter what I say she's going to blow up. If I tell her she's being nosy or to stop asking, it implies that I'm fucking other girls. After she said the "I'm just scared you'd do something" part I said "Ok. Let's talk later. I'm going out to get food soon". She said Ok and then 3 hours later wrote "Hi I'm feeling clingy". This is where we'really at now. If this somehow doesn't come up for the next 2 weeks, I'm sure she'll be like "so you haven't fucked anyone over there right?" at some point when I get back. I don't know if this is one of those situations where she'll be mad for a little while, but then come back to me anyway (on my terms) because she has strong emotions for me right now.
Parade 2016-10-04 22:08:22
@carlito No offense, but you care way too much. Go fuck other women. At least 3 of them, then talk to her again.
JB 2016-10-04 23:31:58
I'm having a bit of a pickle related to the subject that I think some of you more experienced guys musy have been in before. I currently have a couple of women on rotation, but I am introducing a couple of inexperienced ladies (I have no idea how no guy banged these girls yet..) to the rotation. My poly EFA has been rock solid, and the girls have only been drawn in closer. This is somewhat concerning to me, since both girls have admitted that they haven't had neither sex nor any kind of romantic relationship before. I am suspecting that they simply have no idea what is actually going on because of the lack of experience. (As you would imagine, meet-to-lay time with these lovely ladies is a little more than three hours..) What experience do you guys have with "true" virgins - can you actually initiate a poly relationship with them, or will they simply label you the worlds biggest asshole when you have sex with them but won't submit to monogamy?
Captain 2016-10-05 06:23:24
@JB You can create whatever kind of relationship you want with inexperienced girls. As long as you are not an asshole, treat them with respect, and are honest yet subtle, they will probably be into you for a very long time. There's kind of a catch 22 though. If you go monogamous with an inexperienced girl, she will probably get curious eventually and cheat causing huge drama. Unfortunately, the curiosity will probably become latent much sooner if you are non-monogamous. As I've discovered recently, it can be quite painful when a woman you've taught the ways of love and sex begins to sleep with other guys. I still think this is the best way though as monogamy will make her eventually feel not free and dump you. At least with non-monogamy when she gets curious she will keep sleeping with you and probably keep you as her main boyfriend. My formally inexperienced girl is still completely in love with me even though she's slept with 3 other guys now. I doubt this would be the case if I had tried to keep things monogamous. As always, your frame is key!
JB 2016-10-05 08:11:33
@Captain Some very sound advice. I think that I would definitely be prone to having some sense of OBW playing in with these girls. I have the very good fortune of being an extremely confident, wealthy young scientist with a great physique, so I often attract inexperienced girls who have been waiting to find the 'right guy' to mate with. It has often caused me to let certain very interested girls go by - simply because I don't think they understand that I am not their dream guy on a white horse who they have waited 25 years for. I remember a certain quote from Neil Strauss; he mentioned that one of the only lays he backed out of was a mid-twenties virgin hottie who wanted him to take her right then and there. Guess that thought has kind of stuck with me. Thank you very much for the tips - I will remember that even though she has other experiences, she will likely still be in love.
Blackdragon 2016-10-05 10:47:45
What experience do you guys have with “true” virgins – can you actually initiate a poly relationship with them, or will they simply label you the worlds biggest asshole when you have sex with them but won’t submit to monogamy?There is no difference. I've had at least one virgin and four or five women who had only fucked one guy before me in FBs and MLTRs. Just proceed as normal. Side note: You have no idea if these women saying they're virgins are actually virgins.
JB 2016-10-05 11:18:11
@BlackDragon One is from social-circle and I pretty much had that confirmed from the start. The other one is a lovely Asian Catholic that decided her journey towards being more open minded involves extramarital sex (what a perfect timing) - but I'm still somewhat doubtful. Thank you for the advice. I'm also sensing that they are aware that I am not interested in monogamy (they 'poke' me about other girls as per usual WD, so at least that's both a great sign of attraction and makes it easier to keep the poly frame). I'm sensing that I have to get all my cherry popping fantasies fulfilled while young - I imagine it is not as easy later in life? Or is it mostly because of the legal age? (Here it's 15. Good old European sexual freedom)
Blackdragon 2016-10-05 11:38:37
If your goal is to fuck a virgin, yeah, it's a little easier if you're younger. But it's not impossible if you're older. (I was around 37 the first time I had sex with a virgin.)
Carlito 2016-10-05 13:48:02
@Parade, Blackdragon Yea I do care too much. Probly because I spent the last two months playing it cool and I down want to blow things now that I got her back. I live in Toronto. The worst city for dating according to Roosh. I live in a sick condo, am at least average looks wise (being modest), and have what some girls have said is a hilarious profile .. yet I still really struggle to get hot dates. If I had a 75 tinder match percentage and was turning down dates left and right like here in Peru, it would be a lot easier to be outcome independent. I plan in working on my online game because I know I could be doing better than I am, but right now this is my reality.
Gil Galad 2016-10-05 13:49:02
Here it’s 15. Good old European sexual freedomHaha yes it's the case in France. Frankly I still feel embarrassed at the idea of laying a 15-16yo - intellectually I do think the 18 rule is bullshit; there is no "unacceptable imbalance of mental power" between an adult and a smart, mature 15-16yo - but the SP is still strong in me. I guess the best way to get over it is to realize that these young chicks are already fucking 17-year old guys.
Sebastian 2016-10-05 14:39:15
Great post as usual, I have two questions, 1. Given the concepts explained, every woman starts as a FB, correct? Then you might do an upgrade. 2. A core concept is that even when in co-cohabitation with an OLTR you keep having women on the side, how in this world do you manage to explain new women that you're in a serious commitment? What I mean is, how you make them decide that they don't care if there's no long term future with you since the very beginning? What do you say when they ask you if you have someone else? You just deny with a "no response strategy" your OLTR relationship? Sounds like it is impossible to manage and keep having rotation unless you lie to new women but I know you don't do this. So, what's the strategy here? Please be specific 'cause it seems impossible to me and I'd really appreciate a straight answer. Thanks in advance. Keep rocking!
Anon. 2016-10-05 15:33:27
Regarding #2, first of all, when you have an OLTR, all the other women have to be FBs as opposed to MLTRs. Secondly, women are clever, when they’re FBs, they know they’re FBs, they don’t care about your other women and there’s no “long-term future with you” for them. Therefore, presume she’s an FB, only interested in you sexually, and act accordingly. If she doesn’t perceive herself as one, there’s an unresolvable conflict of interest and you can’t have both her and your OLTR.
Parade 2016-10-05 19:20:47
@Carlito You ain't gonna like this, but you need to hard next her. You can't handle it, so it'd be better for you to cut her out entirely than keep thinking about this shit.
JB 2016-10-06 02:45:47
@Carlito You have the completely wrong mindset. You somehow think that you need to do something to "hold on" to women. You have to think of yourself as a fucking gift from the Gods, sent to conquer the world. If you fail to see yourself as anything but the greatest catch to walk on this planet, your mindset is wrong. Work on self improvement first (ambitions, fitness, travel etc.). I can tell you for one that if you become the greatest man you can be and keep working towards becoming even better - women are drawn to you very quickly. You will of course still have to make a first date, but that's about it. With regards to your girl - I'll have to agree somewhat with @parade. You are dangerously close to oneitis and going beta. Do you have to hard next? Maybe not. But you need more women in your life STAT unless you want to risk losing your balls. @Gil Galad I have none of the SP, but plenty of the complications. If I get down with <18 girls, it's because they are around my social circle. I haven't used any <18 dating apps yet (Badoo?), so I can't tell whether it's actually easy or not. But hitting on 15 year olds on the street certainly will look creepy as hell if you are 20+ @Sebeastian Girls start out as WD (Women you're Dating). This means that they are not yet classified yet. Based on their frame and so on, you decide whether to proceed with a MLTR-style relationship or FB-style. This means basically that you either take them out to do stuff and let them spend the night (MLTR) or you just start calling them over whenever you want to bang them. They will catch on extremely quickly. As for the OLTR question: There is a major difference between lying and not disclosing information. You simply start like you usually would with a poly EFA. You then maintain your poly attitude and just immediately put her in the FB category. With regards to all your questions, you have to understand a very important mindset about girls. Whereas you, a man, only really understand direct communication (Are you with someone else - yes/no), girls react best to indirect communication (Are you with someone else - yes, I actually have 13 girlfriends, so I'll probably only have time to see you every 14 days). You pulled a joke on her, but she completely understands your answer. If you answer anything remotely direct in the beginning, you'll have to prepare for trouble (yes - she probably leaves. No - you're a pussy, so even if you were actually single, you just cut attraction in half). I haven't had OLTR relationships, but I can tell you for sure that you can easily maintain polyamorous relationships without having to deal directly with the issue until the 6 month mark (if even so).
Anon. 2016-10-06 03:04:24
Also note people are notoriously good at doublethink. If she likes you, she begins to negotiate against herself (as an aside, this is what you should always permit people to do. Let me recommend Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss again), and a vague answer lets her believe both possibilities simultaneously. Yes — so you’re desirable (preselection). No — so you’re available (attainability).
Brian 2016-10-06 06:11:12
My only question with this post is about OLTR... You state that she needs to have frequent enthusiastic sex with you (duh, or else what's the point?), but how do you define this? Personally I like to have sex once every day or two, sometimes twice a day. I know part of the point of having open relationships is so you can supplement your sex, but how much should an OLTR be fulfilling? Especially when she's seeing other men? Thanks BD.
Blackdragon 2016-10-06 07:10:49
I know I could be doing better than I am, but right now this is my reality.Then get to work on changing your reality instead of making excuses for it.
Given the concepts explained, every woman starts as a FB, correct?No. You can start a woman off as an MLTR if you're feeling confident about it and are aware of your feelings. In other words, you're doing it because of her quality and not because you have oneitis or because she's the only woman on your radar at the moment. That being said, the vast majority of women I have sex with for the first time I start as FBs. Safer that way.
A core concept is that even when in co-cohabitation with an OLTR you keep having women on the side, how in this world do you manage to explain new women that you’re in a serious commitment?Way too off topic a question for me to address in this post. We've discussed that in detail at this blog before (do some searching) and I discuss it in great detail in my open relationship ebooks.
You state that she needs to have frequent enthusiastic sex with you (duh, or else what’s the point?),It's not duh. Millions of men out there have marriages or relationships where they don't get enthusiastic sex.
but how do you define this?She is actively engaged and clearly enjoying it. Or at a very bare minimum, she is pretending she's enjoying so well that I can't tell the difference (that's pretty hard for a woman to pull off though).
I know part of the point of having open relationships is so you can supplement your sex, but how much should an OLTR be fulfilling?That's completely up to you. Guys with stronger sex drives and/or higher need for sexual variety (Thrill of the Hunt Men) are going to need to fuck other women more often even if their OLTR is fantastic in bed. Other men with more normal sex drives or more Pleasure of Sex personalities won't need to sex women on the side nearly as much. It really is up to you.
Especially when she’s seeing other men?That has nothing to do with her ability to make you feel good in bed.
Bs 2016-10-06 11:03:59
I have a really big quuestion: does Alpha male 2.0 concept can be transform to an ordinary relationships withe mal friends? and can I downgrade and upgrade them (with soft nexts) without having sex of course LOL? or it cannot be transfeered to that realm. because normal relationships cannot be like that (other set of rules)? thx
Blackdragon 2016-10-06 21:14:30
The relationship techniques I discuss do not work on guy friends. We're talking about women here.
JB 2016-10-07 00:54:53
@Bs You have a male friend who is giving you trouble? Tell him to cut the shit or fuck off. You know what I do when my male friends start pissing me off? I stop talking to them. After being ignored for a while they get it. Then they apologize. After that, they are welcome to be my friend again. Your friend circle might be scarce (which is fine if you're not an extroverted maniac like myself). But never feel that you need to take shit from any of your friends. That's beta behavior.
Carlito 2016-10-08 22:28:54
@Parade, @JB, @Blackdragon You guys will be proud. Had a first date lay tonight. Girl is really cool too, could be MLTR material if we lived in the same country. So why do I feel like shit about it? I think it's because after after my girl in Canada asked me if I'm going to see my fuck buddies I said "I don't know why you'd ask me that", meaning we're not exclusive (we used to be - she broke the deal) so why are you asking. She replied "Ugh I'm just worried. Whatever. Sorry for freaking out." She took my answer as "Of course I wouldn't be fucking anyone but you, how can you ask me that". To make things worse I check my phone just now and she tells me that she just found out her friend has cancer and has been crying for the last 2 hours. Fuck man. I feel like I cheated on her. Is it normal to feel this way when you start fucking multiple woman? I need that open relationships book ASAP.
Josh 2016-11-28 03:54:24
Couple questions. Would you ever have your 10 minute explanation conversation by text, if she were to call you out via text, calmly asking for an explanation? I think my instinct is to reply with something like "here are reasons 1-5 why I have decided I dont' want to go out with you again." With specific examples at each bullet point. Let's say for example I have found her to be too selfish and unappreciative. Do I give her specific examples of how she's behaved that were not cool? Or do I generally say "you are selfish and unappreciative"? Or maybe that "I don't like how it "feels" to go out with you"? None of the above? Not sure how to be nice and unrobotic about this. Or exactly how honest/detailed to be. I don't think the "we are going to fast" excuse you suggest works very well, because I generally start them all out as FB's and then consider them for an upgrade a few months into it.
Blackdragon 2016-11-28 14:44:15
Would you ever have your 10 minute explanation conversation by text, if she were to call you out via text, calmly asking for an explanation?Never. In person only. If at all.
I think my instinct is to reply with something like “here are reasons 1-5 why I have decided I dont’ want to go out with you again.” With specific examples at each bullet point.No. That's very masculine. You're talking to a woman, not a man. Communicate accordingly. Just give her one reason and then change the subject.
I don’t think the “we are going to fast” excuse you suggest works very well, because I generally start them all out as FB’s and then consider them for an upgrade a few months into it.Again, you're thinking like a logical man instead of a woman. She's not like you.
E.S. 2016-12-31 12:00:59
How do you treat low-end mltrs as compared to high end?
anton 2017-03-09 20:23:18
Hey BD, I just wanted to upgrade a FB to a MLTR recently, and I realized something- I've talked to her a LOT about all the other women I'm dating, including lots of details (that's one of the legit benefits of FB status right?) But now that I'm upgrading her, does that mean I need to stop this? What do I do when she asks from now on, just say I don't feel its appropriate to talk about anymore or something?
Blackdragon 2017-03-10 12:08:30
How do you treat low-end mltrs as compared to high end?Spend more time, perhaps a little more money, more emotional connection.
Hey BD, I just wanted to upgrade a FB to a MLTR recently, and I realized something- I’ve talked to her a LOT about all the other women I’m dating, including lots of details (that’s one of the legit benefits of FB status right?) But now that I’m upgrading her, does that mean I need to stop this?It depends on how jealous she is. If she's the typical jealous woman, then yeah, you should stop talking about side-women, since as a MLTR she's going to "care" about this much more.
What do I do when she asks from now on, just say I don’t feel its appropriate to talk about anymore or something?Yep. Just shrug, say it's not appropriate or that you don't want to talk about it, and change the subject. Don't get into a big conversation about it.
L 2017-05-26 14:04:50
What about downgrading a OLTR due to life complications (We are both in highly volatile professions that require moving around the country and with different shift patterns) and neither of us want to compromise just yet. Is it possible to upgrade this same person later on down the line if these complications are no longer a feature? Kind regards. Great blog, really useful advice.