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Spending Money on Women When You Can Afford It
Reader BH sent in a question that’s an interesting twist on a topic I’ve addressed before: Many of your articles discuss money spent on women. I completely agree that men need to avoid pressing the Provider button or they're screwed and end up in "potential husband" territory.
-By Caleb Jones
Example, nice steak place. I like to eat there and like to bring a fun pretty woman with me. It's enjoyable for me. Disregarding the cost of my food, and discounting for the enjoyment of having a fun hot date with me, the real final cost to me is $30-$50 for multiple hours of fun and usually great sex afterwards. Now, my argument is that the $50 "value" needs to be thought of in terms of % of income. Since I earn a lot, it's a non-factor to me. If i only earned 45k/year then it becomes a much bigger deal.
This is also similar to the Sugar Daddy dating you wrote about recently.
Yet another factor to consider is the woman's income. If she's a college student, little gifts are going to mean a lot more to her (financially) than they cost me in reality. Which is good. But isn't it also easier to accidentally trip her Provider button?
I like doing expensive things because I make good money. Doing them with a hot girl strokes my ego. Am I ok because I have the income to support it, or am I being a fool? What % of income should a guy spend on women, to maximize feelings of gratitude and sexual excitement that they are with a "successful" guy?
Great blog. You're helping a LOT of men. My life is so much better after having bought your books and reading your blog.
Let's talk about your finances. First of all, you should be making at least $75,000 a year regardless of your sex life. If you don't yet, then some of this stuff I'm about to discuss won't apply to you yet, but it's still valuable to your long-term happiness.
There are five factors at play you must consider when making decisions about the issue of throwing money at women because "you can" or because "you like it."
2. Your personal net worth and liquidity (and remember that these are not the same thing).
3. Her possible reaction to you spending money on her like a girlfriend, and the bullshit, drama, and demands that will ensue if this is the case.
4. The type of relationship you have with her: FB, low-end MLTR, high-end MLTR, or OLTR.
5. Your level of drama tolerance.
Only after dispassionately evaluating these five things will you be in a place where you can make a rational determination of how much money to spend within a long-term, consistent happiness framework. I will cover each.
1. Your Net Monthly Income
By “net income” here I’m talking about the money you have left over after taxes, required lifestyle expenses (going out to a fancy restaurant is not a required lifestyle expense, but your mortgage or rent payment is), and any payments on debts. Clearly, if you have thousands of dollars left over every month after these three things, then you’re certainly able to afford to throw all the money at women you like (within the next four factors we have not yet covered, that is).
However, the issue of debt is an important one that a hell of a lot of high income men don't factor in. If you’ve read the wonderful book, The Millionaire Next Door, you know that the majority of so called “rich” people in the US are absolutely drowning in debt. I recently posted this article over at the CJ Blog that showed that 38% of Americans who make over $100,000 a year would have trouble coming up with just $1000 in case of an emergency.
That doctor or corporate vice president who lives in the huge nice house, drives a Mercedes, whose wife drives an Escalade, whose kids go to private schools, and who vacations in Europe every year is likely cash poor. Statistically speaking, he’s smothered in a gigantic home mortgage, car loans, college loans, credit card debt, personal loans, child support and alimony from a prior marriage, and all kinds of other debt, on top of massive lifestyle expenses. He also likely has zero or near zero liquid savings to draw upon. Not to mention he’s paying 50-60% in grand total taxes whenever he gets paid, since because of our corporatist society and ridiculous two party political system, we Americans get raped when it comes to taxes.
Compare him to a guy like me. I make a decent income too. However, instead of a giant McMansion, I live in a modest three bedroom house in a quiet, inexpensive, suburban neighborhood. Instead of a $120,000 Mercedes that he pays $1000 a month for in loan or lease payments, I drive a $40,000 Lexus that’s completely paid for, with zero payments per month. Moreover, I just got this car a few months ago; for the past many years I have been driving a ten year-old Nissan, also completely paid for. This new Lexus I'll be driving for at least the next 8-10 years.Instead of an expensive traditional wife, I have no wife, by choice. Instead of hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, I have zero debt. We both make six figures, but he pays 50-60% in total taxes, while I pay 14% because I'm self employed under an Alpha 2.0 business structure, which means I actually take home far more than he does, even if his gross income is a little higher than mine.
So yeah, if you looked at his car and house, he looks way richer than me. He might even feel richer than me, and that's an important point I'll be returning to. But if you actually looked at the numbers in our financial lives, I’m far more “rich” than this guy. It’s not even close. If this guy lost his job and couldn’t find a new one quickly, he’d be royally fucked, almost immediately. If I lost all of my income (which is extremely very unlikely because I own three small businesses in completely different industries, two of which with international income) it would be several years before I would even notice a difference in my lifestyle, and that's assuming I didn't ever recover my income, which I would.So when I say you have plenty of net income, I’m talking about being cash rich, not outwardly rich. Many of you higher income guys feel like you have a lot of money, when in fact you don't. If you have a high income but you have massive debt or high lifestyle expenses, you should not be throwing money at women at all, and instead should be focused on paying down your debt with a vengeance, just like I had to several years ago. Once you're completely debt free, then throw a big party (I did), but until then, your personal financial picture is more important than any woman should be.
I’ve said before that truly “rich” starts at a net worth of around $10 million. If your net worth is $10 million or more, and it’s in solid investments (instead of something like a tech startup that can radically shift in value at any time), then you’re good to go and can spend all the money you want, any way you like, and you’re welcome to move on to the next section.
If you aren’t worth at least $10 million (I’m certainly not), then you need to take a harder look at your financial situation before you think about throwing money around with women.
Every man who seeks long-term, consistent happiness and who considers money important should have some sort of net worth goal or residual investment income goal (the latter is better). I can’t tell you what number to shoot for, since that’s a deeply personal decision based on many factors I'm not aware of, including your personality, age, relationship status, the part of the world you live in, the number of kids you have or want to have, lifestyle goals, and a host of other things.
If you have already hit that goal, then congrats, you can move on to the next section.
If you have not hit that goal yet, you need to be extremely careful about how much money you throw at women, no matter how rich you feel. If you make a decent amount of money, I’m not saying you can’t throw around some. You can if your income is high and your debt is zero. I’m just saying you have to be careful. Your extra monthly income belongs in your savings and investments, not with some chick (who likely won't even be in your life in 1-2 years). Your net worth should be your financial priority, not her, at least not until you hit your net worth goal.
There's also the issue of liquidity. If you've got a $2 million net worth in rental real estate, that's cool and I'm impressed. But if you've got a $2 million net worth in a bunch of diversified ETFs, from the standpoint of liquidity, now I'm really impressed. You're liquid. The real estate guy isn't. (I'm not saying real estate is a bad investment. It's a fantastic investment and I've made plenty of money from real estate investments over the years. I'm saying it's not liquid, and that's a disadvantage.)
As usual, everything I'm saying here applies to me as well, and I walk my talk. I have a very specific net worth goal. It’s actually a monthly net, after tax residual income goal, since I think that’s more important to focus on than a net worth figure. (This is because a net worth number is always arbitrary. Do you know exactly how your money will be invested and what your exact rate of return will be 15 years from now? No.) Regardless, it’s mathematically tied to a net worth amount. I have not hit that goal yet (it literally my last financial goal I haven't yet achieved), but I should in the next few years by the time I hit age 50 or so. However, I won’t get there if I throw a bunch of money at women because “I enjoy it” or “I can afford it” or whatever. Sure, I can spend a little money, but the bulk of the money I earn goes exactly to where it needs to go: into my investments to ensure my long-term, future happiness as an old man.
3. Her possible reaction to you spending money on her like a girlfriend.
I have already spoken about this problem at great length all over this blog and in my books. A few articles that discuss this topic are here, here, and here, plus many others (check the archive).The bottom line is this: The more money you spend on a woman, regardless of what kind of relationship it is, regardless of your frame, and regardless of what your intentions are, the more boyfriend behaviors she will start to expect from you. Boyfriend behaviors include things like talking every day, going out on dates more often, sexual monogamy/exclusivity, meeting each other's family, and all kinds of other Disney beta crap. She will start to expect at least some of this stuff, then demand this stuff, and when she doesn't get it, you'll get DRAMA.
If you don't like drama and don't like a bunch of relationship rules, you need to avoid spending money on women whenever possible, regardless of your income. I talk about appropriate amounts to spend for different types of relationships here, so feel free to read that if you want more specifics. Just realize that just because you A) can afford to take women out to expensive steak dinners and B) you like taking women out to expensive steak dinners, doesn't mean she isn't going to start in with the betaziation and drama when you do so. She will. Just give it time.
4. The type of relationship you have with her.
I linked above to the article regarding the appropriate amounts of money to spend depending on if a woman is a FB, MLTR, or OLTR relationship with you. The point here is that the amount of money you spend on a woman MUST precisely match the type of relationship you have with her. Taking a MLTR out to dinner every once and a while is fine, but taking a FB out to dinner is an insane idea that's going to cause all kinds of confusion, drama, and hurt feelings down the road (which will all be your fault). Taking a woman out to an expensive, super romantic night on the town would be a terrible idea for a low-end MLTR, a perfectly fine idea for an OLTR, and only good for a high-end MLTR if your Alpha frame was very strong and 100% perfect.
Be aware of all this. Before you ever spend any money on a woman you're in a relationship with, regardless of if you can afford it, stop, pause, and ask yourself what relationship category she's in. If you don't know, then you're doing all this wrong and are in for big problems no matter what you do. If you do know, then force yourself to stay within the rules of that relationship category, even if you don't "want" to, or enjoy all the problems it will cause. Speaking of problems...
5. Your level of drama tolerance.
Of course every guy is going to have a different level of drama tolerance. I cover the four levels here.
At one extreme, you've got guys who are absolute drama queens and have drama with women regularly because they kinda like it. Then you've got guys who have regular drama because they don't really mind it. Then you've got guys who dislike drama but put up with it because they're betas, have oneitis, or suffer from scarcity mentality ("I've never been with a girl this hot!!"). Lastly, you've the opposite extreme of guys like me who hate drama, don't tolerate any of it, and instantly soft or hard next whenever a woman throws some their way.
If you're one of those guys who secretly enjoys drama or doesn't mind it too much, then you can spend money on women more freely and bend a lot of these rules. You'll get drama, but you won't care (or you'll like it). If you're more like me and don't like drama at all, you'll need to stick to these rules to the letter. I certainly do. That's why I'm so happy. 🙂
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JB 2016-10-27 11:11:23
To be honest, after really incorporating the Alpha Male 2.0 lifestyle for a while now, I don't even see why anyone would actually want to spend money on women, except for a small amount on a first date coffee or drink. After that, I certainly don't mind paying for the groceries when we cook at my place, but that's about it. The girls know I'm well-off, but nobody has ever given me any kind of drama for not paying for stuff (and they usually know not to, for everything else as well). I rooted the whole 'an alpha needs to provide monetary value' out with ease - it's the weakest of the 'provider' themes you can have in any kind of relationship (hint, look at any monogamous relationship where the rich guy suddenly looses his income, and watch the girl leave him faster than the first notice arrives in the mail) Be the guy who has all attractive areas covered, who simply needs to provide his presence to make anyone feel safe and taken care of. It's not that hard.
Blackdragon 2016-10-27 13:11:29
To be honest, after really incorporating the Alpha Male 2.0 lifestyle for a while now, I don’t even see why anyone would actually want to spend money on women, except for a small amount on a first date coffee or drink.I agree, but not all men are like us. And it's also true that masculine men have a biological, paternalistic need to "take care of" a woman and loved ones. I feel this sometimes myself. But I'm not in the camp who likes to take women out to expensive steak dinners because "I like it." I'd rather sit cozy at home and talk on the couch.
JB 2016-10-27 13:59:25
@BD I think the last nail in the coffin for me came from me meeting up with an old study-buddy from my university years. We were having a couple of drinks, talking about our lives since we graduated. We both make the same amount of money (he actually makes a little more than me) However, we started discussing how much money we actually had for ourselves to do whatever we want at the end of the month. My friend, who is in a monogamous relationship with a beautiful but high - drama girl, told me that he had about a thousand dollars left for whatever he wanted when bills were paid. I didn't understand this - after all bills were paid, I have several thousand dollars left to save, invest, use for travel and what not - and I work 5-10 hours less than him every week. He started explaining: "Well, my girlfriend doesn't make as much as me, so to get her to move in with me, I promised to pay the difference in rent compared to what she paid before..." I started frowning. "... and when you are in a commited relationship, you have to take her someplace fancy once in a while...". This shit was exactly the kind of SP that is destroying ordinary guys. My friend is no beta - he's a scientist in the pharmaceutical field, 6'2, muscular and charming. Yet his disposable income is under half of mine. He then proceeded to lecture me that 'I'd have to start paying for dinners if I wanted to get a serious girlfriend' and 'girls who come to your apartment after a single date are cheap' - but at this time, I was no longer surprised. I'll enjoy my three MLTRs that cost me 10-20$ a month, thank you very much. Now I know the true meaning of why learning this stuff young is so important.
London PUA 2016-10-27 14:51:23
Great post blackdragon, What's your opinion on paying taxi fares for your fuck buddies when they come to see you? Especially if there broke student girls. Like my ones are?
Blackdragon 2016-10-27 15:00:32
What’s your opinion on paying taxi fares for your fuck buddies when they come to see you?If you can easily afford it, within the parameters I described above, then it's fine. I've occasionally done things like that.
Especially if there broke student girls. Like my ones are?THE FINANCIAL CONDITION OF THE WOMAN IS NOT RELEVANT. ALL THAT'S RELEVANT IS YOUR FINANCIAL CONDITION. Never, ever, ever make these kinds of decisions based on how much money she has or doesn't have. Your financial condition is what matters. Most hot young girls are broke. I don't give a fuck. That's their problem. Eventually they'll find a beta to marry. They'll be okay. You don't have that option. As a man, you're on your own. A hot, young woman will never be broke in the long term. But the world is full of hot men who are broke as fuck. Don't be one of them.
donnie demarco 2016-10-27 16:00:50
I can relate to the question-asker on this one. I also like to do high life, jetsetter-type activities, and it's fun having a sexy woman accompany you. But navigating frame is tricky; I'll give what few pointers I can here. But first:
But other than that, doesn’t money spent need to consider both the man and woman’s income?No. Women are emotional creatures, and perception is reality. If you take a woman on an expensive date, you are going to FEEL like a boyfriend to her, period. No amount of salary analysis can reverse this. For every action you take with a woman, you must consider how it will impact her feelings. It's very difficult to control your frame otherwise. I can't help you with dinner dates, because I don't do them. Dinner dates are NOT sexy. Whenever I need a "date" to break up the monotony of going-to-my-place-to-shag, I look for interesting (and sexier) variations. Examples: - Take her to the beach with a bottle of wine or champagne. Find a quiet corner so you can be sexual with her. Women love having sex on the beach. - Picnics. Same deal. Find a quiet corner in a park and break out the champagne. It starts out seeming romantic, but 15 minutes later you're fingering her pussy and she's trying to stifle her moans so as not to alarm the children playing nearby. Hot. - Dancing and singing. If you have basic dancing or singing talent, it's very easy to create a fun and sexual date. Just don't overdo it; you're not there to show off your dance moves, you're there to make her feel good and sexual. The dancing is just foreplay. And don't do dinner beforehand! Just say you're getting off work late and that you'll pick her up and head straight to the club, she can eat without you, blah blah blah. While we're at it, let's talk about vacations. I like taking girls with me on trips, but it's especially tricky to pull this off without going full provider. I'm still figuring this stuff out, but here are two things I do to help keep things in control: - Plan the trip like I'm going by myself. I choose all the accommodations and plan all the activities by myself. This way, it feels to her like she is accompanying me on MY trip, as opposed to her feeling like we are planning a vacation together (like a boyfriend or husband would). She pays for her flight, though I'll tend to pay for drinks and stuff while we're there. - Frame myself as a guy who doesn't do romantic vacations. This one is a little easier for me than most guys, because I'm a drug addict, and the women I date know this about me. So when I invite a woman to Vegas, she knows it's going to be more Fear and Loathing and less Cirque de Soleil. The last time I took a woman to Vegas, we were there for five days and we had ONE meal the entire trip (cocaine is a hell of a drug). I realize this specific tactic won't work for a lot of guys out there, but perhaps my method will help other men brainstorm alternative ideas.
Doing them with a hot girl strokes my ego.You know what strokes my ego? Taking a 10/10 classy lady and dragging her to a creepy alley or cheap hotel room to fuck her like a whore. Then she texts me the next morning asking when she can see me again. *fistpump*
Al 2016-10-27 18:29:00
I am still amazed by the number of women who feel that they are "entitled" and expect you to pay for them, regardless of their income. Sometimes it seems, the better off they are, and the hotter they are, the more they expect to have money thrown at them. It seems to get worse as they get older too. And worse still if the previous bloke treated them like a princess. Keep smiling 🙂 Best thing BD has ever said:
A hot, young woman will never be broke in the long term. But the world is full of hot men who are broke as fuck. Don’t be one of them.
Ton 2016-10-27 21:58:27
Great post BD. I am one of those guys that just can't stand drama and will give up anything including P**** right on the spot just to get away from drama. Though I remember years ago in my 20s i kinda liked it. Now that I come to think of it I realize the reason I liked it is cause after the fight was over, the make up sex was better than ever. But now that I matured and near my mid 30s, I learned that nothing can replace my peace of mind and serenity. Thanks again for yet another great blog post bud.
JB 2016-10-27 23:39:41
@Donnie Demarco I've read many of your comments here, and I have a lot of respect for your dating life, and most of your life in general. As a scientist in the medical field, however, I'll have to remind you that using drugs like cocaine/methamphetamine/similar daily/subdaily will end up with you dying at 40-45 (Or, if you stop after 20 years, make your liver/kidney/brain/heart/pancreas fail before you're 60). Don't get me wrong, I have respect for you if you'd rather live in the fast lane now than grow old and enjoy your pension - I'm not judging your lifestyle choices. I'm just saying that if you say A, B comes automatically as a result of that. I've had conversations with plenty of multi-morbid patients in the hospital that put themselves there - and just don't want you to become one of them.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2016-10-28 04:45:31
The bottom line is this: The more money you spend on a woman, regardless of what kind of relationship it is, regardless of your frame, and regardless of what your intentions are, the more boyfriend behaviors she will start to expect from you. Boyfriend behaviors include things like talking every day, going out on dates more often, sexual monogamy/exclusivity, meeting each other’s family, and all kinds of other Disney beta crap. She will start to expect at least some of this stuff, then demand this stuff, and when she doesn’t get it, you’ll get DRAMA.If you are in a live-in OLTR or open marriage you can counter-act the effects of this by telling her about your relationship status and that you enjoy dating other women on the side, keeping it to once a week and having her understand that you love your gf/wife and would never, ever leave her for someone else no matter what. You won't have any drama or problems treating an FB like this. The most you will ever get is after some time together (4+ months), the texts becoming a bit too frequent and becoming more girlfriendish in nature, this is the point when she's starting to look for something more emotionally involved and is testing the waters with you. Just remind her what the two of you are and it'll stamp that out pretty quickly. She'll also LSNFTE you not long after for the next guy in line who is actually emotionally available. No drama, no problems. Which is why I disagree with this:
taking a FB out to dinner is an insane idea that’s going to cause all kinds of confusion, drama, and hurt feelings down the roadIt's really not a problem and works great in fact. However, maybe it comes with the proviso that you need to be in a serious live in OLTR/OM and that you are very clear about that fact with the FB and that you would never leave your partner for anyone. The reason I think it works so well is there seems to be plenty of women out there that want a bf type of thing without wanting an actual bf. Essentially they want an FB without all the drama and clinginess etc. still want to be treated great and feel special, but they don't want a full blown relationship. Some of them feel like they're being used when they are strictly an FB to a guy, like he's getting the better end of the deal. Some BF type stuff is kind of meeting them halfway IMO, it's fine.
CrabRangoon 2016-10-28 08:15:24
@BD "Most hot young girls are broke. I don’t give a fuck. That’s their problem. Eventually they’ll find a beta to marry. They’ll be okay. You don’t have that option. As a man, you’re on your own."..couldn't have said it better myself. I know and have known many girls in their 20's who barely could make rent, lived in shithole apartments, needed money from mommy and daddy all the time, etc... And guess what, all of them quickly found beta husbands that paid for everything, even paid off debts for them. I dated many of these women and once they realized I wasn't a provider, they found one very fast after me, got married right away and popped out kids-it became laughable how predictable this scenario played out. They are all living in beautiful homes in nice suburbs now posting on facebook all day(and no doubt bored to death). It would take up way too much space in this comment to give specific examples. So yes guys, these girls will be fine...don't fall for the sob story and become an ATM.
Bulma78 2016-10-28 08:45:05
Example, nice steak place. I like to eat there and like to bring a fun pretty woman with me. It’s enjoyable for me. Disregarding the cost of my food, and discounting for the enjoyment of having a fun hot date with me, the real final cost to me is $30-$50 for multiple hours of fun and usually great sex afterwards. Now, my argument is that the $50 “value” needs to be thought of in terms of % of income. Since I earn a lot, it’s a non-factor to me. If i only earned 45k/year then it becomes a much bigger deal.Just a comment from a female point of view. I agree 100% with the guy BH who sent in the original question at the beginning of this article. He enjoys going out to eat sometimes but obviously he’s not going to go all by himself!!! It is fun to make a special night or afternoon and go out to eat with somebody you like or a hot date like he said. If you want to go out and have those kinds of fun experiences then you are going to have to open up your wallet once in awhile and give in. (this goes for women too – open up your wallets) Once me and a few of my girl friends were at a chain steakhouse and there was a guy eating alone at the table in front of us and we were whispering to each other, “Is he really alone? Why would someone do that?! What a loser!” I’m sorry to say we said that stuff, well he didn’t hear us, but yah, I don’t know what his reason was for being alone there, but no guy wants to be that guy! (and he wasn’t old either, he was around our age) I don’t think guys should pay for everything. I think it’s just fine to take turns paying for doing fun things like going on trips or to get food. Also, I’m not saying it has to be a nice steak place or expensive restaurant either. I’m not really on that level money-wise, at least not on a regular basis, plus it’s not my preferred type of atmosphere anyways and I certainly would rather save my money. It could just be a local wing or burger place and I still think that’s special, assuming you don’t normally eat all of your meals out. I make/eat all of my meals from home, bring my lunch to work, etc. So if I’m dating a guy, then I want to go out to eat someplace at least once every other week……I’m fine spitting the bill, taking turns paying, whatever, but I want that experience!
Blackdragon 2016-10-28 10:18:21
If you are in a live-in OLTR or open marriage...Yes, if you have a live-in OLTR many of these rules change. This scenario doesn't apply to the vast majority of readers though, and I'm talking to the typical reader, as I often have to remind you. (Though this scenario will apply to me soon.)
It is fun to make a special night or afternoon and go out to eat with somebody you like or a hot date like he said.Yeah, if I don't have to pay for it all.
Saladin 2016-10-28 14:14:38
Hi, BD. when you say this:
First of all, you should be making at least $75,000 a year regardless of your sex life.Does that applicable to all global citizens of the entire world's population? I’m a guy who’s living in a developing country (SE Asia), hence that figure is sky high.
Blackdragon 2016-10-28 16:27:39
Does that applicable to all global citizens of the entire world’s population?No. That's for the typical Western city. In developing countries you can bring that number way down.
Parade 2016-10-28 19:01:09
Does that applicable to all global citizens of the entire world’s population? I’m a guy who’s living in a developing country (SE Asia), hence that figure is sky high.You want enough where you don't have to be constantly worried about when you'll get your next paycheck and have some amount left over after housing + food + basic needs for savings.
joelsuf 2016-10-28 19:22:28
I'm surprised this is brought up at all. The most I've ever spent on a date is like $30-$40, and that was only cuz I promised one of my buddies I would check out the restaurant he was working at so I figure I take a couple dates there. Neither of them worked out too well. I guess if you have the money to waste, then sure, but why waste it in that way?
A hot, young woman will never be broke in the long term. But the world is full of hot men who are broke as fuck. Don’t be one of them.I agree with the first statement, but I wonder what BD has against good looking broke dudes? I kind of fit that category (although I live within my means). I'm not proud of it or anything but my happiness level is about 7 or 8 on his scale yet I only make about $20000 a year. I'm just afraid that if I make too much money that it will be more money that I'll have to hand over to the government and other corporations. If I'm "broke" I can avoid that, avoid being part of the welfare state that got us in this mess, and still live within my means, which wouldn't change much if I did make the $75k that BD talks about. I know this is kinda weird reasoning, but is it wrong and if it is how so?
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2016-10-28 19:51:08
(Though this scenario will apply to me soon.)Interesting. Can't wait to read the blog posts about that and how that effects your life. What's the plan re. other girls (or guys for her) and where will you see them and how often? Are you going to be allowed to bring other girls to your place when she's not there (or when she is there!)? Is she allowed to bring other guys over? Are you going to be only seeing girls on the side that can host you? Or are you going to use hotels? (can't see that happening because you're the manosphere's biggest tightwad lol) Can't wait to see how it all pans out, first live in OLTR for you, yes? something you've been preaching about for a while but have no first hand experience in yet, so it'll be interesting if your experience matches your theories.
is it wrong and if it is how so?Yes it's wrong. Tax can be minimized for starters, but ultimately all that matters is what your take home pay is. You're just cutting off your nose to spite your face. "I don't want to earn more because I want to stick it to the system" lol. You're better off earning 100k a year, paying 40k in tax and taking home 60k than earning 20k a year and paying 2k in tax and taking home 18k. As for your happiness, yeah, you may be happy NOW, but looks fade. Very good looking guys tend to think a bit more like chicks, then they too hit 'the wall' (albeit at a later age) and when you lose your looks, if you don't have money, you're fucked.
“Is he really alone? Why would someone do that?! What a loser!” I’m sorry to say we said that stuff, well he didn’t hear us, but yah, I don’t know what his reason was for being alone there, but no guy wants to be that guy! (and he wasn’t old either, he was around our age)Did you ever consider maybe he was out of town on business? And decided he'd rather go out to eat than sit in his hotel room alone in front of the TV with room service. Women, always quick to judge...
Blackdragon 2016-10-28 20:09:52
I wonder what BD has against good looking broke dudes?Read this.
I’m not proud of it or anything but my happiness level is about 7 or 8 on his scale yet I only make about $20000 a year.With all due respect, I don't believe you. Many of your past comments clearly indicate how unhappy you often are. I think your average level of happiness isn't anywhere near 7, much less 8.
Can’t wait to read the blog posts about that and how that effects your life.They're coming. Every time I mention it guys get very excited and pelt me with various questions about it and attempt to derail these threads. I promise posts are coming about it, and I'll answer all questions about it then. Until then, we need to stay on topic with the article at hand.
it’ll be interesting if your experience matches your theories.They aren't theories. Item number 3 here.
Tom 2016-10-30 00:19:27
It reminds me of a girl I hooked up a few times. I'm a freelance 24yo guy I don't make much money. I hooked up with her 1st time, she submitted to my idea splitting the motel fees. But the 2nd time I did the same thing, she was testing me playfully (pulling the money back when she was grabbing it). I said, 'if you didn't wanna give me, we'll go back.'' Being a stone cold, emotionless guy. Frame control's everything. One more thing, is it too structured if I insist everything to be 50/50 whenever going out with a girl (meal, fuel etc)
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2016-10-30 09:37:16
One more thing, is it too structured if I insist everything to be 50/50 whenever going out with a girl (meal, fuel etc)You're going to ask a girl for fuel money!? LOL, don't do that unless you're going on a road trip with her, not to and from a date. If you want to split other costs 50/50 that's fine, but I'd recommend taking turns. So you buy one round of drinks, she buys the next etc. With dinners, you buy dinner one night, next time it's her turn to pay. That's generally a pretty good way to do it. Also it depends on how hot the girl is and how good looking (and rich or high status) you are vs all her other 'suitors'. A guy who's a 9/10 probably won't have much trouble getting a 7/10 to split the bill, but a guy who's a 7/10 and dating a girl who's a 9/10 will usually be paying, at least during the 'dating' phase.
Parade 2016-10-30 13:13:19
Also it depends on how hot the girl is and how good looking (and rich or high status) you are vs all her other ‘suitors’. A guy who’s a 9/10 probably won’t have much trouble getting a 7/10 to split the bill, but a guy who’s a 7/10 and dating a girl who’s a 9/10 will usually be paying, at least during the ‘dating’ phase.Not really. I mean, sure, if you want to pay or don't care, but... Well, the only time I pay for a chick is when I'm doing the SDD thing (and then it's a single drink ~$15). I almost never pay for anything for chicks I run into from ordinary online sources. If we go on a trip together, we're splitting the bills, she can arrange for her own travel or we split it, etc. If I paid for her expenses it'd result in a problem -- Are you saying I can't afford to pay for myself? And even if it didn't, it doesn't actually help anything. You get a "thanks for the drink" or whatever, but it doesn't change anything for me. She's either attracted to me or not, spending a few dollars on a drink or a meal doesn't change that (at least not with the chicks in my area...). I do it in SDD because it's expected there and would be weird if I didn't.
Blackdragon 2016-10-30 19:05:13
One more thing, is it too structured if I insist everything to be 50/50 whenever going out with a girl (meal, fuel etc)That's using guy-logic on woman, so something that structured, verbalized, would only work if you established it with someone who was already a long-term MLTR who already liked you a lot. Otherwise you're just going to create conflict. You could still somehow work it out that way, but you can't verbalize it. Women are not men, thus you can't treat them like men.
Also it depends on how hot the girl is and how good looking (and rich or high status) you are vs all her other ‘suitors’. A guy who’s a 9/10 probably won’t have much trouble getting a 7/10 to split the bill, but a guy who’s a 7/10 and dating a girl who’s a 9/10 will usually be paying, at least during the ‘dating’ phase.I have never had a problem doing things like this with 7s, 8s, or 9s, including high-9s (almost-10s). I do admit doing this with an perfect 10 who was well under age 30 while trying to keep her around forever would be difficult though.
Lovergirl 2016-10-30 19:34:15
Splitting the bill says "just friends". The woman paying says the guy can't afford it. It would be socially embarrassing, I would think for both parties, to be splitting the bill or having the woman pay. Such a weird thing to push for.
Blackdragon 2016-10-30 19:40:03
He's talking about once in the relationship, not a first or second date.
Mistral 2016-10-30 19:52:56
Long time reader, first time poster. Love your blog, BD...it's on my top 5 sites to read, outside of purely financial sites. So I have a bit of a different take on this: In life, I take what I want, and I pay for it. First, I make a lot of money--not bragging, just fact, and relevant to the discussion--and I'm 100% location independent in North America, and while I have not reached my goal of 100% location independence, I do get to spend 2-3 months overseas, off and on, usually in Europe because I like it there. At any given time, I have 3-5 girls in a 'soft harem'. When I travel, if I want to bring one with me, I do it. They get to go where I go, do what I do, eat where I eat, and stay at the hotels I stay at. If they travel with me, they fly in business with me (90% of the time on points, as I'm sitting on 1.4M FF miles in one account, and 300K in two other accounts from back when I was a road warrior). We do what I want to do--all of my girls are submissive, respectful and either foreign-born, or the daughter of immigrants. I lead, the girls follow. So when I bring one with me, I plan it--as far as they know, travel plans take care of themselves--and the girl's job is to show up, look pretty and make sure that my cock is suitably lavished with attention. Ex. I just took an off-season trip to Paris, because I wanted to go to Paris--Paris is becoming what Istanbul is now and what Egypt became in 2006: the best time to visit was ten years ago. So, I took one of my girls with me. We ate where I wanted to eat, we visited the sights I wanted to visit (Musee D'Orsay and Montmartre , oui, Eiffel Tower, non), etc. She's 20 and it was her first time in Paris, so she thought it was the Best Thing Ever--she hasn't traveled much having been a broke student most of her life, so she was wide-eyed the whole time, and watched me deftly navigate a World Capital with the aplomb that comes from being (a) a man and (b) an experienced traveler. Plus she understood what's she's there for, dressed in the lingerie that I wanted her to dress in, did the things I wanted her to do, etc., plus she's willing to give me her "young years" - I first started nailing her when she was 19 and I was 48. And sure, daily life resumes back in the states, where her idea of a fun time is coming over to my place for the weekend, cooking for me, getting fucked and staying in--unless I want to go out (she's a hardcore introvert, and thus my natural prey). There's a point where you realize that you have more "yesterdays" than you have "tomorrows"--I like to think I'm just over the midpoint, but I'm probably somewhere around 3/8ths or so of the tank remaining--I'm not likely going to be banging a 20 y.o. in Paris when I'm 80s, so better to do it, now. I have the cash, my future years are fully-funded, and hey, I have the freedom to live my life how I want, so I do. Mistral
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2016-10-30 21:00:52
I almost never pay for anything for chicks I run into from ordinary online sources.How hot are they? Sure, like I said, getting a 7 to pay for things if you're 7+ yourself is pretty easy, but most 8+ girls in the top tier cities just expect you'll pay. Sometimes they offer, mostly European girls who have just moved here but that changes pretty quickly once they've dated here a bit. Certainly the hot local girls will sometimes offer, but it's more a token offer they don't really mean, and you probably won't be seeing them again if you let them.
I have never had a problem doing things like this with 7s, 8s, or 9s, including high-9s (almost-10s). I do admit doing this with an perfect 10 who was well under age 30 while trying to keep her around forever would be difficult though.I can't, the girls I tend to date just expect it, whether SDD or Tinder or other online. They'd look at me like I had 3 heads if I wanted them to pay (unless they're foreign). After we've been seeing each other for quite some time they might pay for some things. This is even when they're approaching me. Personally I think you guys rate really soft, or the cities in which you live just aren't as money centric.
Tom 2016-10-31 01:38:48
@lovergirl I try making no mistakes when handling fb/low end mltr, some of the girls im not hanging out long enough. Splitting the bills at logical sense by verbalizing it is ideal for me. I'm not a high earners too, regardless whether she's a gold digger or not. I will make sure she's not taking advantages of me.
JB 2016-10-31 02:16:36
It seems to me that this whole "splitting the bill" issue is more American than European (or at least Scandinavian). Over here (where women are, indeed, more equal to men than in the US), girls always go for their wallet when it's time to pay. In the dating phase, I have actually had objections to paying for pretty much anything unless I tell them that they can pay next time (as I do strictly coffee/drink dates, we're talking a minimal amount). However, we're mostly talking college/university educated girls in this case, which of course creates some bias. I'm sure the broke, uneducated girls expect different treatment.
LittleWolf 2016-10-31 10:00:26
Yes, if you have a live-in OLTR many of these rules change. This scenario doesn’t apply to the vast majority of readers though, and I’m talking to the typical reader, as I often have to remind you. (Though this scenario will apply to me soon.)@BD WolfOfGeorgeStreet seems to make a lot of good points, some of which you agree with, although he is definitely more cynical. You say that most men aren't in his position. Well I am too, and I think there must be many more of us. BD, we need your guidance and we need it ASAP. 🙂 Looking forward to your expanded writing topics.
Blackdragon 2016-10-31 10:22:27
It seems to me that this whole “splitting the bill” issue is more American than European (or at least Scandinavian). Over here (where women are, indeed, more equal to men than in the US), girls always go for their wallet when it’s time to pay.Correct. European women present a different set of problems.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet seems to make a lot of good points, some of which you agree with, although he is definitely more cynical. You say that most men aren’t in his position. Well I am too, and I think there must be many more of us. BD, we need your guidance and we need it ASAP. Looking forward to your expanded writing topics.Wolf is great. He's nonmonogamous so he's doing it right. He's just in a very rare, unusual category, and it's hard for him to imagine that the vast majority of men won't have his specific problems, complaints, or opinions. We all have viewpoints that derive from our own lives.
POB 2016-10-31 10:29:19
I pay for the first date, split the others (the "I pay" "you pay" system). Never had a problem with that, regardless of their age, hotness, etc. BTW, it has worked with women from 18s to late 40s, and they're at least HB8s. One thing BD's touched on his piece and nobody commented is that there's a big difference between perceived and real richness. The amount of zeros on your account is way less important than your frame. A guy who uses Uber and dress fine (but more casual) will sure look more likely to split the bill than say, a Benz and Rolex dude (I'm extrapolating for the sake of this example, of course). My guess is if hot chicks are expecting you to pay for shit all the time that's probably because you're projecting something that you're not fully aware of... That and/or you're just shooting for a every specific demographic (like hot young supermodel girls who are addicted to being pampered and borderlining sugar daddy stuff). To say all young hot chicks are like that (and there's no way around it) is damn naive. Just my two cents.
Lovergirl 2016-10-31 18:34:05
My current favorite guy does like Mistral. He flies me places and gets nice hotel suites and penthouses but I assume he would be doing those things whether I were with him or not. He travels a lot for business, has tons of companion miles and also has money but I don't really care where it's coming from, it's just fun. When he takes me out to eat it's always wherever he wants to go but I am fine with that. He's probably asked my opinion before but I'd rather he decide anyway since he's paying. I'm definitely not seeing him for the money. He's hot and fantastic in bed but the extras are great and exciting. When he is in town we usually don't go out he just gets a nice hotel suite and we have lots of sex but when he flies me someplace else we go out more (he doesn't admit to being married, but....)
joelsuf 2016-10-31 19:50:08
Read this.I will admit that I'm a variation of a MGTOW I suppose, although I'm not the belligerent MGTOW who thinks that all chicks are bad and stuff. And I'm not too sure the common MGTOW are attractive at all.
With all due respect, I don’t believe you. Many of your past comments clearly indicate how unhappy you often are. I think your average level of happiness isn’t anywhere near 7, much less 8.Yeah I re-read your post on happiness, I'd say I float around 5 or 6, spiking at 7 and on very rare occasion, 8. Its way better than how it used to be, it used to max out at 4.
Tax can be minimized for starters, but ultimately all that matters is what your take home pay is. You’re just cutting off your nose to spite your face. “I don’t want to earn more because I want to stick it to the system” lol.Touche. So from this I guess we can just agree that I'm comfortable and lazy? haha. Truth is I want to make more money but I have a great deal of freedom where I'm at right now, and afraid of sacrificing it.
Blackdragon 2016-10-31 23:02:38
Truth is I want to make more money but I have a great deal of freedom where I’m at right now, and afraid of sacrificing it.I have money and freedom. You can have both. You're just making excuses. Because like you said, you're lazy.
donnie demarco 2016-11-01 18:06:54
I’ve had conversations with plenty of multi-morbid patients in the hospital that put themselves there – and just don’t want you to become one of them.I appreciate your words, JB (and enjoy your posts as well). My cavalier attitude about this topic is somewhat misleading, as it took me years of careful experimentation to get to this point. My advice to anyone curious about this stuff: - Buy from people you trust, especially when trying something new - Study up on the effects/side effects beforehand - Experiment slowly, start with low doses and learn your limits through gradual increases. And don't forget that the entire process (high->come down) can take several days with certain drugs - Never let drug usage interfere with your other life goals! This is why I'll never be addicted to coke; it ruins my erection quality for a few hours, which means I need to carefully time my usage around my sexual activity (and not the other way around; sex is the higher priority!)
donnie demarco 2016-11-01 18:24:05
It would be socially embarrassing, I would think for both parties, to be splitting the bill or having the woman pay.I often get disapproving looks from people when they see my date paying for herself (it's usually married couples that do this). Whenever this happens, I'll reach down and put my hand on my girl's ass, give it a firm squeeze, then look back at the couple and smile. Sometimes my girl will giggle and kiss me in response, which is just icing on the cake. Social embarrassment isn't such a big deal when you realize that the people judging you live entirely boring lives.
donnie demarco 2016-11-01 18:40:08
A guy who uses Uber and dress fine (but more casual) will sure look more likely to split the bill than say, a Benz and Rolex dudeWell said, and I wonder the same thing. @Wolf, are you the Benz and Rolex dude? Are women able to sniff out your financial worth based on your appearance? And while we're at it...
Personally I think you guys rate really soft, or the cities in which you live just aren’t as money centric.Availability is also a factor. I can't remember the last time I saw a 10 walking around SF, and the last 10 I slept with was from LA (I met her through a friend). What's your advice on how to find those 10s? I'd love to test my Uber-and-dress-fine game on these women and report my results 😀
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2016-11-06 02:55:56
@Wolf, are you the Benz and Rolex dude? Are women able to sniff out your financial worth based on your appearance? And while we’re at it…They simply wouldn't be dating me here if they weren't sniffing it out. I'm a good looking guy, around a 7/10, but that is not enough to date 9+ models here, at least not from online. You would have to be a 9+/10 guy. As a reference, my last long term side girl was a big 4 beauty pageant winner and fashion model with adverts of her all over Sydney, 19yo. I'd say she was about an 8.5/10. Didn't cost me much other than the hotels, room service and mini bar and occasional drinks at a bar. My other recent side girl was a student/stripper around an 8-8.5/10 as well, 20yo. She offered to pay further into our time together (not for the hotels obviously), she would sometimes pay for some takeaway or drinks but the nice dinners and expensive drinks were all on me. Of course when we could find some time and a place to just hang out (like if both her parents were out of the house), we could just hang at hers and have plenty of fun for free. A big reason they are with me is because they get to do things they wouldn't normally be able to do with other guys, especially ones their age, it's an experience. They have a queue of charming, male model looking guys who are SINGLE beating down their door for just a whiff of their pussy, It's a very tough environment here, ALOT of very, very, fit good looking men and not nearly enough slim, attractive women to go around.
Availability is also a factor. I can’t remember the last time I saw a 10 walking around SFDon't know about SF, I didn't see them walking around either when I was there. it might be more an accessibility issue as opposed to them not being there. Alot of very, very rich guys in SF that might be hoarding the 10's. I wouldn't want to be competing with them in any case. Here you can get lucky and find them online occasionally. A girl I took out for a date a few weeks back was a 9/10 fashion model out here from NYC with alot of big campaigns under her belt and signed with one of the top 4 modelling agencies in the world. Stunner, 18yo. Met her off Tinder, there was no way she was paying for anything, not in a million years, maybe if I was a perfect 10. Date went perfectly and she was very excited for a second, but then went cold, I have a feeling she couldn't get past the fact that I wasn't taller than her when the initial excitement of the date wore off and she had time to stop, think and go back through her 'checklist'. The only reason these girls date me is because I'm good looking, charming and wealthyish, simple really. These girls get whatever they want, plenty of taller, more ripped, way better looking guys throwing themselves at them that are just as charming, the differentiating factor is money.
donnie demarco 2016-11-10 16:57:04
Ok guys, time for some data. Here is my food + drink expense data for a girl I’ve been dating for the past few weeks. This girl is under 21, so it’s all been food, but my typical alcohol expenditures are in the same range. I hope you find this information useful my friends. - 19 yo marketing student at a nearby college. Cute latina with giant boobs and a J-Lo booty. - Met her on a dating app - Note: I paid for all ubers to and from dates, which are not account for below. She paid for her ubers to my place ($7 for two) - First date I suggested coffee, but she asked for dinner. This is often a bad sign, so I told her I didn’t have time for dinner and rescheduled to the next day. The next time I suggested a contemporary dessert place that is very popular with girls, and she loved it. Kino but no kiss, and that was it. ($6 for two) - Second date (one day later) we met downtown, made out for a bit, then got In ‘n Out; one combo #2 that we both shared. Then we went to her dorm room and had sex. ($18 for two) - Third date we went on an evening walk through a romantic part of SF. The architecture there has beautiful lighting at night, and the place was empty (raining) so it was perfect. Dinner was mexican street tacos. We then went to my place and had sex. ($15 for two) - On Halloween we went to an 18+ club. She paid for her ticket, and I for mine. I bought her street hot dogs (the ones wrapped in bacon with grilled onions and white sauce). Then we went back to my place and had sex. ($0 for two) - Last date I went to her dorm to play video games with her. She bought pizza and saved half of it for me. We had great sex. I only had one slice of pizza. A beach date is currently on the books, and if things continue to go well it could warrant a weekend trip. We have good chemistry, and I like her a lot. Any other questions, just ask!