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Connecting With A Younger Woman. Or Not.
Whenever the topic of dating a much younger woman is discussed, often this question is brought up by a certain percentage of older men: So If I’m in my late 30s or 40s (or older!), and I’m on a date with a 19 year-old or 21 year-old, how do you connect with a woman that young? I understand the physical attraction, but what if you can’t connect, despite a mutual attraction, possibly because she's so...young. Or dumb. Or just too different. How do you even maintain normal banter? How do you not get bored? How do you not get turned off?
-By Caleb Jones
It was over eight years ago, around early 2008. I was still somewhat new at all this, and it was the first time I finally got the balls to start messaging much younger women online. During the prior year I was dating women primarily in their 40s, 30s and very late 20s. I figured that if I messaged women in their late (legal) teens or early 20s, they would just call me a creeper and vanish. It was true that my response rate suddenly plummeted, but a few Type 2 VYW responded to me, quite enthusiastically.Not yet having my online dating system fully developed yet, I fumbled through it as best I could, and finally got one of these girls to agree to a first date at a local Starbucks. Her pics were cute but not super hot, but I didn’t care. I considered it an experiment to see if A) I was attracted enough to actually want to have sex with a woman that young and B) if a woman that young was interested in having sex with me. I was about 36 at the time; she was 20, essentially still a teenager.
When we met up at the Starbucks, I was shocked to see that she was way better looking in real life than her pics indicated (which was a common occurrence back in the days when I used to hit online dating really hard). Though she wasn’t blonde or short, which are my two favorite traits, the rest of her was smokin’. Perfect beautiful face. Young, perfect, tan skin. Long, light brown hair. Trim, fit body. Big perky boobs. The works.
So being physically attracted to her was easy. More so than I thought, as you’ll see in a little bit.
Then she opened her mouth and started talking.
For the first few minutes everything was fine. We talked about her mom and her best friend. I was getting pretty good at first dates by then, and knew that the more she talked and the less I talked, the higher my odds of fast sex would be. So I just kept her talking about whatever she wanted to talk about.
Soon, the topic of her mom and friends morphed into a detailed conversation (mostly on her part) about...wait for it...her hair. Coloring it. Maintaining it. Shampoo and conditioner. She went on and on about this crap, literally for at least 20 minutes. I couldn’t stand it, but I knew I had to keep her talking, so I just kept her going, which was easy. It was just...stupid. I couldn’t deny the physical attraction though. She was super hot and I got a little turned on even as she was talking about her conditioner.
Eventually we wrapped up the date, keeping it to one hour as per my dating model, and went our separate ways. I remember walking out of that Starbucks, shaking my head. I was a grown man, a business owner, and father of two. What the hell was I doing? Her stupid conversation about her hair reinforced my false Societal Programming about dating someone “too young.”
But then something very interesting happened. I drove home to my apartment (I was still living in an apartment way back then since I was still going through my divorce), parked, walked into my home, and immediately a huge wave of monstrous, caveman like horniness overtook me.
I’ve always been a high sex drive guy, but this was different. I had never experienced anything like it before. It was a massive, sudden surge of sexual desire. It hit me like a truck. I suddenly felt so horny I literally stood in my living room for a few moments, my eyes squinted, trying to figure out what was happening inside my body, and why. I was so randy I was ready to fuck my couch. I didn’t understand what the hell was going on.
Today, I know exactly what was happening. We men, of all ages, are biologically hard-wired to be sexually attracted to very young women at prime child bearing ages, meaning mid to late teens and early 20s. This reality is offensive in left-wing cultures that used to be puritanical, such as the US and Canada, but biological facts are facts. As I’ve pointed out many times, a particular culture's discomfort with something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.They’ve even done studies, several of which I discuss in my book, where they took old married men, measured their testosterone levels, then had these guys have a nice conversation with a flirty, hot teenage girl for just 20 minutes, and measured their testosterone again. This resulted in an average increase of 14% in testosterone blood content levels. In just 20 minutes.
Trust me, as someone on TRT, if your testosterone shots up 14% in just 20 minutes, you’d feel it. This is what happened to me so many years ago. Not only was I talking to a hot young woman, but I was talking to one on a date with the intention of (maybe) having sex with me. That was many years ago and today I’m accustomed to this feeling, but back then, as a recovering beta male, getting punched in the face with this level of instant horniness was as intense as it was unexpected.
Little Ms. Shampoo and I never had sex. I screwed up the second date pitch and waited too long. I would have to wait a few more months before having sex with my first much younger woman, an 18 year-old (who I will probably talk about in a future My History With Women installment). But I’ll never forget the lessons I learned that day.Which brings me to my first and primary point. When you’re an older guy (over age 35 or so) and you’re on a date with a woman who is under the age of 23, you’re not there to connect. You’re not there to find commonality. You’re not there to have a deep, meaningful conversation. You’re going to have to look for that kind of thing with women who are a little older. When on a date with a VYW, you’re there to enjoy the deep, visceral feelings of sexual desire and masculinity that much younger women can give you. That’s it. If you look for anything deeper or anything beyond that, you’re likely going to be disappointed.
As I’ve discussed before, women are still teenagers until they hit about age 23. That means that if you’re on a first or second date with a 22 year-old or younger, you’re sitting across from a teenager. Adjust your expectations accordingly.
In other words, don’t try to “connect” or have a “meaningful conversation” at all. Just sit back, relax, and feel the wonderful horniness and sexual attraction nature designed you to feel (assuming you’re attracted to her of course). Don’t have any other goals beyond that.
If that sounds like torture to you, if you can't stand listening to a hot younger woman talk about her hair or Snapchat or "that cunt on Facebook" who flirted with her last boyfriend, then don’t date women under age 23. Draw a line at 23 or 25 and only date women older than that. That’s perfectly fine. I stopped going below age 23 for FBs (more or less) quite a while back, mostly because A) been there done that (a lot) and B) my schedule is so jam-packed busy these days I can only afford to interact with reliable people. In terms of women, this means 23s or over (and even then there are sometimes problems; they’re still women).
If you still want to date women this young but are still concerned about the conversation aspect, just do what I do: let her talk about whatever the hell she wants. If you can’t stand that, try to find something you both can relate to, at least a little.
“Relate to” can mean something as simple as entertaining stories she tells. I had nothing in common with my first 18 year-old, but she was able to tell the funniest, strangest stories from her life that I was at least mildly entertained, and this was someone who was in my life for many years. As an introvert, I didn’t need to do much talking, and she was an extreme extrovert who could go on and on about stuff for hours. It worked, and I never needed to get “deep” or “meaningful” or find “commonality.”
Lastly, don't forget that if you are sexually attracted enough to a woman, you won’t need to find as much depth or commonality as you think.
I’ll prove it. In your mind, picture the hottest, most perfect ten you can possibly imagine. A woman who is physically flawless and 100% your type in every possible way. Make her about age 21. Now imagine her sitting across from you on a first date. She’s kinda dumb and you have nothing in common, but she’s not irritating, she clearly likes you, she’s clearly a happy person, and is smiling, laughing, and having a great time with you.
Do you really care that you have nothing in common and aren’t connecting mentally?
Be honest. You don’t.Dating much younger women requires this more relaxed mindset. It’s not a good thing or bad thing, just something you must be aware of and prepare for if, as an older guy, you intend on dating women this young.
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RT 2016-11-03 06:30:57
Thanks for the post BD. I presume you had much younger FBs or MLTRs who spent a lot of time with you. Did you notice that they matured quicker as a result of spending time with you, learning from you, following your lead etc? I am curious about whether it is likely that a young woman will "grow up" quicker if she is with an older/more mature man.
JavaLoco 2016-11-03 06:41:55
I have described before that at 50+ it seems that I have started to attract women like never before in my life. Note that it isn't a parade, but orders of magnitude beyond where I was at in my 20s. I tend towards exclusive dating still. I don't have a real desire to spin plates. Regarding the testosterone surge caused by younger women, I have an interesting story, to me anyway. Current GF and I were meeting family at a lake community and we spent a couple hours at the beach near a couple of really hot young women, 18ish. Can't say I was turned on, per se, just enthralled. That night, GF and I were asleep and I woke with a raging urge and gf and I fucked furtively. 1) she almost never lets me wake her up. 2) circumstances were that this would have been one of the last places we would have sex (Christian family proximity). Her response: "what were you dreaming of?" More to the young girl attraction. In the last couple of months, despite (or because?) GF, I have had two girls, daughter age, come on very strong to me. One was not hard to let down (single mom) but the younger and hotter of the two has had me thinking. We spent a morning and afternoon on the couch together with me having to fight against my natural inclination to move on her, but I am not into cheating either. Re. relaxed mindset. I am honestly, seriously tired of so-called smart women, the ones who think they know better or belittle your opinions. I don't care if opinions differ, but am starting to draw the line based on how a girl reacts to those opinions. Probably my biggest marker in a relationship is how much she DEMONSTRATES that she is into me. I am really tiring of the cool and cautious affection of some women my age.
Sparks 2016-11-03 08:41:34
This is something I actually have a lot of experience with, having dated only VYW exclusively since my late 20's. Most of the criticism I get (almost always from women in their 30's) is 'what do you talk about' or 'I couldn't relate to someone that young' etc. As BD says, it's easy, you let them do most of the talking. I've had a few VYW tell me 'I'm a great listener' or 'you're so easy to talk to' when in reality I say very little beyond showing interest in their silly opinions or stories. I actually find it easier to make a connection with a 20 year old woman than with a 30 year old. I have no plans to stop searching for VYW for sex. Things are going to get a lot harder from now on (I turned 40 two weeks ago) but VYW make it worth the hassle.
bobby j. 2016-11-03 08:58:50
Terrific article, something I agree 100% with. In my insecure days, many a decade back, I'd want to share stuff: music, TV, my favorite films, ect with chicks - it allowed me to feel some kind of illusionary connection. It was all bullshit. The stuff I do is for me only: Kung fu, the greatest movies, TV shows, radio drama, music and books - the stuff the gets me into the 'Flow state' are all for me. She just has to fulfill her role. Look good and not be a headache. If she has a great personality, charm, some wisdom beyond her years, that's a bonus. "I am honestly, seriously tired of so-called smart women, the ones who think they know better or belittle your opinions." I once chatted up a girl for a few minutes, and many hours later picked her up in my car and before we got to the end of the of road, she had a snarly attitude when I told her I was working on becoming a life coach. I stop the car, commanded her to get out and left her several blocks away from where I'd picked her up. Woke up the next day to find a long text saying that I'd not given her a chance. Deleted. Lol. Being a man, to me at least, means taking responsibility for myself, enjoying my own company, solitude, sense of play, comfort in my own skin. Also, apart from the horniness of a beautiful nubile young woman, there is the youthful energy she has and brings with her. Being more mature now, I can now share in subtle ways stuff that I've learned: Food, wines, music, films, TV shows, art, books, history, psychology, philosophy, ect - but in ways that are framed attractively and show a renaissance man quality that she'll not get from the young boy who watches just the latest action film. Not for connection but for attraction.
JudoJohn 2016-11-03 09:27:18
What about VYW who are doing stuff like double majoring in chemistry & biology? I know it's hindsight bias on my part because that's the VYW I spend 4.5 years with, but she was razor sharp. Is this not what Type 3's are? Would you agree that Type 3's are less likely to date older guys as they get older themselves because the guys in their cohort finally grow the fuck up? Isn't that a space to be opportunistic? (In other news I've recently had sex 3 times with a woman my age and I'm already tired of it. I need another VYW. I buy the testosterone boost argument hook, line & sinker.)
Gil Galad 2016-11-03 09:51:42
I’ve relayed aspects of it before (either on this blog or in one of my ebooks, I don’t honestly remember) her hair. Coloring it. Maintaining it. Shampoo and conditioner. She went on and on about this crap, literally for at least 20 minutesI remember it, it was in your last podcast about waiting beyond the first few dates to start "being yourself".
If you look for anything deeper or anything beyond that, you’re likely going to be disappointed.I think it's a little different in Western Europe, where the problem isn't that VYW's heads are "empty", but that they have already been filled with feminazi crap in high school (and earlier, I would bet). Seriously, even as young as 18 those little missies as just as bad as the stereotypical male teenage zealot (whatever ideology he's fanatic about), leaving you with 2 alternatives in my opinion: 1° screen hard, especially if you're the kind who gets easily pissed off by that stuff and can't stand it from a mile away, or 2° adjust the "you don't need something in common" advice into "you don't need something in common, you just need to distract her every time she opens her mouth about feminism - and she will". Or maybe turn her rambling into a joke, creating the same effect as you would when swearing in front a kid (the kid will laugh while telling you it's bad to say that even though he's enjoying it).
James 2016-11-03 10:29:56
Blackdragon I don't think guys of any age could handle that conversation
Kk 2016-11-03 10:46:19
Thanks for the Post BD Please could you talk about Millenials, baby boomers etc and their alpha characteristics Thanks in advance
epi 2016-11-03 10:51:27
I was getting pretty good at first dates by then, and knew that the more she talked and the less I talked, the higher my odds of fast sex would be.Isn't that bad advice for a guy that's considered too quiet?
Mistral 2016-11-03 11:53:34
Well, long time reader, second-time poster, now. As an older man who dates/mates/plates younger women exclusively, I can attest to a lot of what BD said. The thing is, you have to decide what you're in it for. As men, we are attracted to youth and symmetry (although our word for it is "beauty") because both of those things imply fertility and we were put here by God/Nature/Aliens to REPRODUCE. Our genes send us out into the world to find a way to drive our DNA into the future, even to the point where what we are driven to do trumps logic. If you are just in it to fulfill your genetic "purpose" then yes Shampoo Girl is fine. You don't really give a shit what she has to say, and will probably prefer to silence her, later, by packing her throat with cock. OTOH, if you want to have a relationship of some type with a young woman, then you are going to think strategically. The profile, for me, is tall, introverted girls. Why? I like submissive women and taller girls trend submissive starting about 5'8" and at 5'10" it's a basically a lock. Submissive girls want to be LED, and who better than an older man who is experienced in life to do it? The worst thing that can happen to a submissive girl is that she hooks up with some total loser. Introverts, at that age, tend to have more going on inside their brains besides whatever their bubblehead friends are talking about. I am on the far right of the bell curve for extroversion, and, with introverts in the family, I am good at making introverts "feel comfortable" and when an introvert feels comfortable with you, they tend to think, "Thank God! Now I don't have to go out and meet more people!", and stick around. So how to pull younger women? First, like anything else, Be Attractive, and Don't Be Unattractive, that rule never changes. And you're going to need some level of aerobic fitness--on the Paris trip I mentioned in my last post, there were some days where I walked a total of ten miles. If you're huffing and puffing she's going to be thinking, "Why am I dating grandpa again?" It wasn't a problem for me, although if it had been hot, I'd have said, "Fuck this, we're taking an Uber". And if you haven't fucked your life up, then you're going to be able to do things YOU want to do, only in the company of beautiful young women. You think Stanley or Chip back at the dorm can take a girl where I take her? NFW. That casts me in the role of Sophisticated, Older Man and her in the role of Ingenue, which they tend to really dig, in part because they don't have to think about "what if this happens or that happens, what will I do?" and also because the age gap makes them feel a bit naughty. In Paris, I was asked (only once, though, as Europeans tend to Get It, Right Away) if she was my daughter, and she had to suppress a giggle. You are also going to have to develop some hobbies that young women like, and being the Creepy Old Guy in the Club isn't it. I have been a musician since I was a teenager and I front my own band. One of my girls, when we first met, actually said out loud to me, "I'm going to have to re-evaluate you; you're a lot cooler than I thought you were." If it's not music, for you, Gentle Reader, then it will have to be something else, because being That Old Guy at the club, who never "graduated" ain't gonna be it unless you have a business reason to be there (manager, bartender, promoter, etc.) Mistral
Blackdragon 2016-11-03 12:06:09
Did you notice that they matured quicker as a result of spending time with you, learning from you, following your lead etc? I am curious about whether it is likely that a young woman will “grow up” quicker if she is with an older/more mature man.Only the very few ones that stayed with me consistently over a multi-year period. They learned some things, yes. But the vast majority of women this age come and go, come and go, come and go. Inconsistency is a core trait for women this young, so it's unlikely she'll stick around long enough with you to "grow up" more because of your influence.
Most of the criticism I get (almost always from women in their 30’s) is ‘what do you talk about’ or ‘I couldn’t relate to someone that young’ etc.Yes, because the vast majority of women over 33 have zero desire to date a man younger than 23, even for a hookup. They find it weird or gross. So when they say that to you, they're speaking to a man as if he's a woman. And of course, he isn't.
Things are going to get a lot harder from now on (I turned 40 two weeks ago)Read the comment right above you. When I turned 40, it became easier to get VYW, not harder.
What about VYW who are doing stuff like double majoring in chemistry & biology? I know it’s hindsight bias on my part because that’s the VYW I spend 4.5 years with, but she was razor sharp.She was of higher intelligence, but she was still immature. She still acted like a teenager (if she was younger than 23). Men make this mistake all the time. They get into a serious relationship with an under-23 and justify it will all work out because she's "really smart" or "in med school" or whatever. I've dated a few very smart younger women myself, but they still exhibit these "dumb" teenager behaviors and decisions.
Is this not what Type 3’s are?No. Type 3 VYW are simply younger women who don't have an age preference for the men they date or have sex with. It has nothing to do with intelligence.
Would you agree that Type 3’s are less likely to date older guys as they get older themselves because the guys in their cohort finally grow the fuck up?Yes, I would say that's accurate. But once they get older they aren't younger women anymore, so it isn't relevant.
Isn’t that a space to be opportunistic?For an older guy? No. Type 3s are harder to fuck than Type 2s.
Please could you talk about Millenials, baby boomers etc and their alpha characteristicsI've considered that topic several times, but I have nothing unique to say on the subject. People already know how Millennials act, people know how women 35-49 act (Gen Xers), etc. I wouldn't be reporting anything new.
Isn’t that bad advice for a guy that’s considered too quiet?No. All you need to do on a first date is ask a lot of questions and then shut up. In my experience, quiet guys do very well with this. It's those damn talkative guys who screw this up.
JudoJohn 2016-11-03 12:47:40
I’ve dated a few very smart younger women myself, but they still exhibit these “dumb” teenager behaviors and decisions.The drama was epic.
JudoJohn 2016-11-03 13:06:26
Congrats, you've talked me into a quickie consultation on specific approaches for me and updating my dating profile. I paid up, and will be ready in about a week. I expect it to be quite useful. I've already gotten a lot of value from your blog, so I'm cool with taking the chance. I figure your fee is about the same as dating a woman my age 4 times, paying for dinners for privilege of being screened out.
Anthony 2016-11-03 13:13:02
Another gem from BD. I started dating two younger women after my LTR ended last year. The younger of the two who is 23, noticed I had lost weight and it fueled her attraction more. She tells me she hopes the Army deploys me back to Korea so we can "hang out" some more.
JudoJohn 2016-11-03 13:17:59
As an older man who dates/mates/plates younger women exclusively, I can attest to a lot of what BD said.I know you! Your comments are the only reason I read blog posts in a certain place. In fact, you led me to Blackdragon.
JudoJohn 2016-11-03 13:30:04
I am good at making introverts “feel comfortable” and when an introvert feels comfortable with you, they tend to think, “Thank God! Now I don’t have to go out and meet more people!”, and stick around.At some danger of being off the point of the thread, gentle questioning, active listening, and interrupting more strategically than usual seem to go a long way with introverted people.
donnie demarco 2016-11-03 14:19:41
I can confirm that sex with VYW gives you a testosterone boost. I also used TRT in my early 30s, but stopped entirely once I started dating VYW because I didn't (and don't) need it anymore. It's crazy but it's true. The whole "can't connect with a younger woman" mentality is so arrogant and stupid that I don't even know where to begin. I have relationships with women 18-45, and I have good conversations and good sex with all of them. You can connect with anyone if you aren't an elitist asshole. I spent this Halloween (last Monday) at an 18+ club with a 19 yo college student. We spent the entire night hogging the middle of the dance floor and basically owned the place. It was her first time at a club, and giving her a good first time experience brought much joy to my life. Last night, I slept with a 30 yo woman (older, but still 12 years younger than I am). We talked about her upcoming trip to Miami where she will be undergoing some career training, then shared some interesting stories about our siblings. Then we had some fun trying out those FC2 female condoms. Live is a movie, and every new girl in your life is like a new scene. How interesting will your life movie be? It's up to you to decide.
John 2016-11-03 16:34:17
I am 58 years old. I just got out of a relationship with a 19 year old who I had lived with since she was 18. I had no problem relating to her. I just got used to listening to rap and joining her somewhat crazy world. When I was 42, I married an 18 year old and that marriage lasted 15 years until I ended it to be with this 18 year old. She and I remain best friends and I will always be there for her. I am now out of the relationship with the first mentioned girl, because she was a little nuts, but I ended it and she still cant get over me. I am in a new relationship with a senior in high school, who is 19, because she came to the U.S. not having yet mastered English. This one and I get along fine. I get along with young girls because I feel comfortable with them. I don't feel comfortable at all with women even close to my age. I laugh with young girls and I enjoy them because I feel I belong with them. whether society does or not, i don't give a shit. I take showers with them, they look at my older body and it at first is something weird, but women of all ages also look inside of you, and if they feel love from you, they often love you back, no matter what you look like. 18 year olds are women. they are young but they are all women. they have the same personality now that they will have when they are 40 or 50. things really wont change much. I don';t care what the experts say, I know this to be a fact because I have lived it over and over. Waking up every day to a creamy 19 year old, no wrinkles, flawless, and fucking her is something that you have to experience to believe. Its heaven. Their young voice, all is intoxicating. At the age of 57 I was fucking my 18 year old 10 to 15 times a week, I was exhausting myself on her and it was fantastic. No aphrodisiac in the world can do for you what a young gorgeous girl can do, especially one who genuinely loves your company and loves you. Which I assure you, they do. peace out.
John Smith 2016-11-03 18:20:11
Blackdragon, women are very intuitive creatures. Especially when it comes to identifying criteria that will get them something that they want. When you go out on a date with these girls are you 100% sure that they are in no way picking up on you're financial worth? No matter how cheap your are some people just smell like money. Women pick up on a type of car, a suit or a comment about your employment. "I'm a consultant" vs "I work at taco bell". I have a client who has millions and travels every year. He gets lots of play and has lots of options in a handful of nations with very little effort. He is cheap, not much to look at and drives a tiny fuel efficient car. Yet... you can still "tell". Women can tell. The fact that he has a picture of his trip to Asia or Europe to show you is a tell. The condo that he owns that he only mentions in passing is a tell. Women can tell. Do you think they can tell? Do you think that it, in any meaningful way, curbs your statistical results?
Blackdragon 2016-11-03 19:04:59
When you go out on a date with these girls are you 100% sure that they are in no way picking up on you’re financial worth?I've said many times exactly what you said; that often women can "smell" success on a man. So yeah, I'm sure that happens. As long as I get laid for less than $24 within 3 hours of face time on the second date, and she stays in my life for a long time as a FB or MLTR at virtually no cost, which is what usually happens, I don't care what she smells. I'm a complete cheapass from the get-go, so she can smell whatever she wants.
Do you think that it, in any meaningful way, curbs your statistical results?It curbs them upwards at least a little bit, just like a really good looking guy has his results curbed upwards, just like a really muscular guy has his results curbed upwards, just like a guy who plays in a local popular band has his results curbed upwards, just like a really confident guy has his results curbed upwards, etc, etc. Use whatever you can to increase your odds of getting laid, as I describe in detail here.
Brian Mark 2016-11-03 21:36:33
I'm not sure why you have to explain these things to men. If they don't know what makes a younger girl special then shouldn't be out with them. I've never had any problem conversing with a younger girl. I can't stand talking to old ones with all their hangups or their "superior intelligence" that they think they have. I think guys that say the conversation was the problem, really mean that the chick didn't like them and are just rationalizing. I hear this shit from a friend who is my age all the time. "What does a younger women have in common with me?" If you think like that you should not even be going out with them. I get more enjoyment talking to a 20 year old than a 35 or 45 year old. What the hell am I going to learn from an old women? If I go out with a young one, I can learn about pop culture, and what a whole different generation is thinking. Nothing is to be gained dating an older one. What are they going to do, tell me about their kids or their dog or their sucky job.
Mistral 2016-11-04 00:42:23
I know you! Your comments are the only reason I read blog posts in a certain place. In fact, you led me to Blackdragon.Thanks. And happy to help.
At some danger of being off the point of the thread, gentle questioning, active listening, and interrupting more strategically than usual seem to go a long way with introverted people.Well, yes, but one of my introverted girls told me once that she liked my stories and jokes, and all she had to do was "receive"...to which I replied, "Just like God intended." For me, it's second nature, but as I am used to leading conversations, I simply help things along if the introverted girl somehow stumbles. /shrug
joelsuf 2016-11-04 02:31:45
women are still teenagers until they hit about age 23.I'd say that until 25 or so, they have to make a decision to either stay teenagers for life or become adults. They don't just magically become adults. I know quite a few chicks over 25 who still act like they did when they were college freshmen. But then again I know 19 year olds who act like 33+s. So for me its a case by case basis. I know BD is anti-screening but IMO screening is tantamount these days. You gotta know what the chick's angle is. Another bizzaro thing that I'm witnessing in my city is that most of the 33+s here have next to no ASD while pretty much all the chicks I've tried to get with under 25 have disturbing ASD. Probably just my location I suppose lol.
JudoJohn 2016-11-04 07:31:25
For an older guy? No. Type 3s are harder to fuck than Type 2s.No doubt that time to lay and $ to lay are critically important measures. But.....
she stays in my life for a long time as a FB or MLTR at virtually no cost, which is what usually happensIf Type 3s provide less drama they are worth the time it takes for a comfort bombardment. Thoughts?
Sparks 2016-11-04 07:42:10
When I turned 40, it became easier to get VYW, not harderThat's great news, as you know BD I look really young anyway (got mistaken for 25 recently) so maybe things won't be as bad.
I have been a musician since I was a teenager and I front my own band. One of my girls, when we first met, actually said out loud to me, “I’m going to have to re-evaluate you; you’re a lot cooler than I thought you were.”Mistral you are so right. I'm a drummer in a fairly popular local band and it's just chick crack.
I am 58 years old. I just got out of a relationship with a 19 year old who I had lived with since she was 18. I had no problem relating to her. I just got used to listening to rap and joining her somewhat crazy world. When I was 42, I married an 18 year old and that marriage lasted 15 years until I ended it to be with this 18 year old. She and I remain best friends and I will always be there for her.John this is just inspirational. Please tell me where/how you meet them!
I wouldn’t be surprised if the law lurks around these comment threads. Judging by some of the disturbing comments it would be a good place to catch some weirdos, deviants and other sexual predators.Oh look a white knight! If you think there's something 'weird', 'disturbing' or 'deviant' about two adults having consensual sex then that says more about you than about us. You obviously have never experienced the delights of VYW. Go home and fuck your fat 40-something wife.
JudoJohn 2016-11-04 07:43:48
What the hell am I going to learn from an old women?This attitude perfectly encapsulates why I only pay attention to about 5% of the manoshpere. I am fucking a woman my age (44) and it's terrible. I need to find a new young girlfriend immediately (argh! I mean get either one FB and one MLTR or two MLTR's!) But.....every time my old woman (mid 50's?) boss opens her mouth I learn something. You might not learn much from old single mother waitresses whose lives have been terrible, but there are many talented and successful women out there. Not that I'm in any rush to fuck them, mind you.....I'll do that when I can no longer pull the young ones.
Bulma78 2016-11-04 08:11:54
In other news I’ve recently had sex 3 times with a woman my age and I’m already tired of it. I need another VYW.
I am fucking a woman my age (44) and it’s terrible. I need to find a new young girlfriend immediately.Ok, I totally understand wanting to sleep with a hot 21 year old girl, but what is so terrible or tiring about sleeping with someone your own age? Unless they have a bad looking body/fat and just lay there like they're dead during sex. But seriously, other than those reasons, what is so bad about it??
JudoJohn 2016-11-04 09:22:18
But seriously, other than those reasons, what is so bad about it??If I have to tell you, you won't understand. Here's a hint: it has more to do with energy and zest than mere looks. Understand this: A woman who wants a long term, committed monogamous relationship is wasting time with me. Younger women frankly have more time to waste. I've been in LTR's for 21 of my 23 adult years, and am sick of them. Never with anyone over 30, but that's just a fluke. Still, I want to do what I want to do, when I want to do it, in a way that is simply impossible in a traditional LTR. Better to spend my time with people who don't want to lock me down. I dated a woman from when she was 19 to 13 (I was 39 to 43). I did not disrupt her life plan at all. She's now in graduate school and will marry well. Sure, she didn't fuck 5 other undergrads.....I don't think that she missed all that much. I had dinner with her father earlier this week, we're good friends.
JudoJohn 2016-11-04 09:26:15
Oh look a white knight! If you think there’s something ‘weird’, ‘disturbing’ or ‘deviant’ about two adults having consensual sex then that says more about you than about us. You obviously have never experienced the delights of VYW. Go home and fuck your fat 40-something wife.Blackdragon's sleeping in and hasn't had a chance to nuke the comment lol.
Blackdragon 2016-11-04 11:35:31
If Type 3s provide less drama they are worth the time it takes for a comfort bombardment. Thoughts?You're still not understanding. Type 3 just means she doesn't have an age preference. That's all it means. Type 1, 2, or 3 has nothing whatsoever with intelligence, quality, low-drama, or anything else.
Oh look a white knight!Please remember Rule Number 4 and do not feed trolls on my blog. Thanks in advance.
Bulma78 2016-11-04 11:40:31
If I have to tell you, you won’t understand. Here’s a hint: it has more to do with energy and zest than mere looks.Sorry if I missed something but I believe you were referring specifically to the act of sex itself in the comment, so that’s why I was curious and had to ask. I think I do understand now because most older women have kids, boring lives, act bitter, or want to get married right away, etc. and it doesn’t help when they get fat in addition to all of that other stuff. It does make sense, so it’s about the entire package of what being young is. I would say a lot of older women probably have a ton of baggage and are negative people in general which is not attractive at all.
Sparks 2016-11-04 12:55:35
Please remember Rule Number 4 and do not feed trolls on my blog. Thanks in advance.Yes I forgot. Sorry BD!
JudoJohn 2016-11-04 13:05:21
I would say a lot of older women probably have a ton of baggage and are negative people in general which is not attractive at all.Sadly, a lot of older guys suffer the same fate.
Greg 2016-11-04 17:31:29
My preference is for younger women, but it helps if you can engage with ones who in person, can hold a conversation and aren't shy, socially awkward and/or socially retarded, as most are. Most younger women in the 18-25 age range can be and are extraordinarily flaky, so that getting a meet with one in person (if you're engaging with them online, rather than cold approaching them in day or night game), can be difficult. If you're older, in addition to regularly working out at least 5 times a week, if you're into geeky nerdy younger girls who aren't overweight (as many are, but not all are), you'll need to put in the work and get educated on what people are currently into in pop culture, with regards to music (as in be regularly listening to it and be able to talk about it), films and TV shows (as in regularly watching them and being able to talk about them), books (as in reading them and being able to talk about them). If you consider yourself a fairly nerdy guy already, you'd be doing most of these things anyway, so it'd be easy. Meeting younger women under 25 through sugar daddy sites, is a different story, as you're dealing with women having a different mindset, who want you to shower them with money and be a beta.
donnie demarco 2016-11-04 19:13:52
I think I do understand now because most older women have kids, boring lives, act bitter, or want to get married right away, etc. and it doesn’t help when they get fat in addition to all of that other stuff. It does make sense, so it’s about the entire package of what being young is. I would say a lot of older women probably have a ton of baggage and are negative people in general which is not attractive at all.Not exactly. JudoJohn hit the nail on the head. It's the type of energy that younger women give off. Younger women bring out the man inside of us. They inspire us to lead, they bring out our confidence, they draw out our male energy and embrace it with the purity and innocence of a child. They make us feel like men. Older women are constantly trying to lead, they need to control everything, and are always overthinking things and worrying about how XYZ might reflect on her image as a Strong, Independent Woman. They don't make us feel like men, they make us feel like job interview candidates. It's stressful as fuck and a total libido killer. Older ladies: NOTHING KILLS CHEMISTRY MORE THAN A WOMAN TRYING TO LEAD. IF YOU WANT PASSION, STOP TRYING TO LEAD. LET US LEAD. Most older adults have baggage, it's a consequence of life. Baggage is OK as long as you continue to add positive energy to the interactions. That's all we're really asking for. It's why we date in the first place.
Lovergirl 2016-11-04 19:33:14
This is timely lol. Because I have two people working for me tonight, both female. One is 43 and the other is 18. The 43 yr old is sending me constant texts about the clueless things the 18 yr old has just said to her. She's like is this for real? I was like we were young and dumb once too... but were we that bad?! She said no. Haha 😉 I have a couple teenage sons though. So I already know their brains have a long way to go after their bodies. I think that's why we have that ewww uncomfortable reaction to old men wanting to sleep with young girls. Mentally they are still children. I admit it's disconcerting to see all the negativity directed towards older women and their bodies/looks, personalities. I guess there are always going to be some men who think that way but it comes across as very hypocritical. We all age. Nothing we can do about it. I'm 40 and if men are losing attraction for me I don't know about it.
JT Money 2016-11-05 08:58:22
I think this post is spot on. My question is do you adjust as you get older. Say you are 46 and not 36. You get just as horny staring at a hot 20 year old. At what point does the age difference become creepy? If you are 46 can you really date much younger than 30 ? If you just want to have sex with a hot woman in her 20s what is your opinion on escorts: I find as I age I'm mentally stronger, more successful, physically not that much different then when younger but still my age. I would even have more kids if some gorgeous 25 year old woman wanted them with me. How do you navigate these issues without seeming creepy. I don't care what anyone says, a man wants younger women for all the reasons you state. I've gone on dates with women my age and even if we connect mentally most of them are physically unattractive because of their age child birth and bad skin. I say this as a man who does not mind a bigger girl. It's their age. I don't want to date grandma.
Ton 2016-11-05 09:50:49
Great Post BD, I totally agree with this post. I am 33 and one of my FBs I'm dating is a 23 year old Korean girl. And eventhough we do have quite a bit in common (she is in a similar work field and we share some common hobbies), I still find it a bit boring to be with her, hence she is too young and doesn't have a lot of experience in life. Though that isn't stopping me from enjoying non-monogamous sex with her. I do have to admit that sometimes I have to cut our dates short after I shag her a few times, and that's primarily because there isn't much to talk about post-sex, lol but it is what it is and just like you said, with girls this age you just gotta enjoy the damn sex!
Blackdragon 2016-11-05 11:40:55
We all age. Nothing we can do about it.If you read the comments carefully, most men here (though not all) aren't complaining about numerical age. They're complaining about how older women choose to behave vs. younger women. They're complaining about behavior, not physical appearance, and women can do something about that.
Say you are 46 and not 36. You get just as horny staring at a hot 20 year old.Sounds good to me.
At what point does the age difference become creepy?Never. "Creepy" is a false Societal Programming term that is completely subjective and is something false you were trained to think by American / Canadian culture. European and Asian cultures, for example, would have no problem with this, because their Societal Programming is different. Here's one example from my life (and I could give you many others): When I was about 38, I was dating a young Asian girl who was about 20. She told her dad about me, and and my age, and he got mad at her...because I was too YOUNG. He said, "He's only 38? That's bullshit! You need to be with a man who is over 50! Then he can take care of you!" It's all bullshit, dude. "Creepy" or "appropriate" is whatever you think it is based on whatever bullshit culture you were raised in (and they're all bullshit).
If you are 46 can you really date much younger than 30 ?I personally know hordes of men who are doing that right now. I'm 44 and I'm doing that right now. I plan on having FBs below 30 for the rest of my life and it will be no problem. Again, these limitations are in you head, not the real world.
If you just want to have sex with a hot woman in her 20s what is your opinion on escorts:Read this and this.
JudoJohn 2016-11-06 08:52:23
I guess there are always going to be some men who think that way but it comes across as very hypocritical.Blackdragon already covered the angle of it's really behavior patterns that are the main problem, and I note it here only to concur. When it comes to hypocrisy, perhaps you are picturing a guy in the suburbs with an expanding waistline, receding hairline, and counts watching the news as a hobby. I could perhaps be persuaded that such a man is a hypocrite, but it's not my problem. I am kicking ass in every aspect of my life, although I have had to scrap pretty hard to overcome difficult circumstances. Good luck convincing me that I'm a hypocrite.
I think that’s why we have that ewww uncomfortable reaction to old men wanting to sleep with young girls. Mentally they are still children.Nice straw man. Almost every discussion I've seen here and other places in the manosphere is talking about men in their late 30's, 40's and sometimes into their 50's going for women invariably 20 & up. Women above 20 are not children. Your picture is of men in their 60's & 70's wanting to sleep with 13, 14 or 15 year olds. Yeah, that's gross. It's also entirely beside the point.
JudoJohn 2016-11-06 09:44:36
You’re still not understanding. Type 3 just means she doesn’t have an age preference. That’s all it means. Type 1, 2, or 3 has nothing whatsoever with intelligence, quality, low-drama, or anything else.Fair enough, I suppose. N = 1 for me when it comes to much younger women, so I need to be careful about drawing conclusions. She had to be a Type 3 because every other guy she expressed attraction for was way closer to her age than mine. You also bang the drum pretty hard on not screening, which is exactly what my thought processes on this would lead to. I am guessing that VYW who will be into me will be like her, and that's probably not a fair guess....but further and more problematic, it might close doors I ought not be closing. I can't control who's attracted to me, I can only control myself and my surroundings. My frame will always have a strong element of intelligence to it. I have two tall bookshelves which are 95% non-fiction. I have a B.S. in mathematics and a job as an analyst. A standard date is Red Rocks Amphitheater, not for a concert but to explore geology (there is a place in the park where you can literally put your hand on an "unconformity", where 300 million year old sandstone is in contact with 1700 million year old gneiss.....fucking mind blowing). Smart girls love spending time with me, but I probably shouldn't assume only smart girls enjoy spending time with me. I'm not a chameleon and will not pretend to be something I'm not just to get laid. That said, I need to let the VYW decide if they find my mindset attractive, it's not my call, it's up to them. And to the point of the post......I have an exceedingly deep and life long connection with the last VYW in my life, we parted on the best terms imaginable. If I use my experience with her as a model, my probability of success would be minuscule.
Lovergirl 2016-11-06 09:55:43
JudoJohn- I'm not sure what your childhood has to do with the price of tea in China but ok. Mine was no walk in the park either but I don't see how that relates to this conversation. In any case. I have to wonder what the men here are picturing when they talk about older women as well. I'm 40- I've yet to have a gray hair and I'm not wrinkled. I'm still fertile lol. I haven't gotten fat though I would like to lose a few pounds. Men still are attracted to me- I work with the public and get hit on a ton. I don't really see where the nastiness towards older women comes from. You all are saying attitudes. When I read through the comments that seems to mean you don't like women knowing what they are talking about or being smart. That's actually kind of amusing. Are men really that insecure? Is that what happens when you get older? Do you start feeling threatened or something? I'm not stupid. I probably do play my intelligence down when in a relationship just because of that reason though. I don't get into battles of wits with men or try to boss them around and never really have. Some guys act like being submissive is a turnoff though (reading comments online not sure about in real life).
Lovergirl 2016-11-06 09:57:44
The comment I was responding to seems to have disappeared?
Captain 2016-11-06 10:03:17
I am 42 and am in a an open, long term relationship with a 21 year old. We have 0 problem connecting, in fact I actually feel more connected with her than I ever have with any other woman in my life. Perhaps this is because I am her 1st boyfriend so her energy with me is completely fresh, open and unspoiled. Also her parents are foreign born, she is very mature for her age and I am very young for my age. Independently of her I actually love doing 21 year old stuff, music festivals, partying, really adventurous travel etc. I have a 32 year old FB on the side who most guys would probably think is hotter than my main girl (they are both hot btw). My FB is great and we get along super well as friends, but I could not see being in a relationship with her. There is something about older white American women. A lot of them do want to lead and if you are an alpha or 2.0 this doesn't work in the context of LTR. Having said that, in the last couple of years I have had mini-relationships with a 40 y/o Filipina, a 40 y/o Spaniard and 35 y/o English woman. All three of these woman were absolutely wonderful to be with and I could have easily have seen myself spending a significant part of the rest of my life with them. Two of these woman were independents and one was submissive. All three were super sexy too and worked really hard for my affection. I think somehow older white American woman are being socially programmed to be dominant. This is not an international problem.
JudoJohn 2016-11-06 10:06:05
Do you really care that you have nothing in common and aren’t connecting mentally? Be honest. You don’t. Dating much younger women requires this more relaxed mindset.You are almost certainly right about this. Part of TMM is to find a unicorn that you have this great connection with along with all the other requirements (even listing them is too exhausting for a Sunday morning). Too often my primary social contact has been with my SO, and I am on a mission right now to expand my social circle. Part of the reasoning for this mission (certainly not the primary reason!) is to take pressure off of dating, to relax the need for deeper connection with women I'm dating.
JudoJohn 2016-11-06 10:15:29
I’m not sure what your childhood has to do with the price of tea in China but ok. Mine was no walk in the park either but I don’t see how that relates to this conversation.Which is why I deleted it! I'm surprised anyone saw it, I thought you had 10 minutes before anyone sees the comments, but it turns out it's just 10 minutes to delete/edit....my bad.
When I read through the comments that seems to mean you don’t like women knowing what they are talking about or being smart. That’s actually kind of amusing. Are men really that insecure? Is that what happens when you get older? Do you start feeling threatened or something?I met my last S.O. in a chemistry class. She switched from double majoring in chemistry & biology to theoretical mathematics with a minor in computer science, all at a no name school. After scoring in the high 90%'s for the GRE, she got into an Ivy for a full ride PhD in computational biology, and in fact that is why she left me. Well, she didn't leave me, I drove her out there, helped her set up her place, backpacked the coast, fucked one more time and got dropped off at the airport. She will have a great life and marry well. So yeah, I am not exactly threatened by smart women! I love smart women!
I’m not stupid. I probably do play my intelligence down when in a relationship just because of that reason though.That's a damn shame. Hell, a good portion of my game is defeating that dynamic.
JudoJohn 2016-11-06 10:42:21
I don’t really see where the nastiness towards older women comes from.I like Blackdragon's blog exactly because he's not nasty about women, older or otherwise. He has had many good things to say about older women, in fact. You're one hell of a trooper. This forum is not meant for you, but you stand pretty tall here. Kudos. At this point in my life, I am going to pursue much younger women, definitely below 30. Why? Because I can. This is not nastiness towards older women, although older women are often nasty towards me. I had a much younger woman on my arm for a long time, and it was invariably older women who had a problem with it.
Reff Joss 2016-11-06 12:16:08
In any case. I have to wonder what the men here are picturing when they talk about older women as well. I’m 40- I’ve yet to have a gray hair and I’m not wrinkled. I’m still fertile lol. I haven’t gotten fat though I would like to lose a few pounds.All your descriptives are non negatives that don't even get you in the hot girl ballpark. "No gray hairs and not wrinkled and still fertile and not fat but could lose some weight" are descriptives that would all apply to an everyday unattractive youthful girl. So an attractive 40-year-old self describing her attractiveness falls in the unattractive young girl ballpark, these are baseline givens in an unattractive young girl who isn't terribly overweight. I'm sure there are more than enough men who are interested in you, but its night and day between 20 and 40 for women. . it is what it is. Men are attracted to attractive youthfulness.
Lurker 2016-11-06 13:38:54
@Lovergirl "You all are saying attitudes. When I read through the comments that seems to mean you don’t like women knowing what they are talking about or being smart. That’s actually kind of amusing. Are men really that insecure? Is that what happens when you get older? Do you start feeling threatened or something?" This paragraph is a case study in what I don't like about many (not all) older women. The problem isn't with women who are "smart" or "knowing what they are talking about." It's with the ones who think that just because they are smarter than other women it entitles them to talk down to their men or have an attitude. And also the accusation of "insecurity" reveals more about yourself than about us. No, men are not "threatened" by or afraid of dominant, arrogant, or demanding women. We are simply disgusted by them, don't find them at all attractive, and prefer to be with a more submissive, respectful partner. Another thing about many older (single) women - they are often more catty, resentful of men, and like to insult our masculinity when we don't behave how they like (e.g. pursuing younger women instead of them). As your comment has aptly demonstrated. @Captain What you said is also true. I've been with a couple foreign older women who are not at all like this. So I would guess this trait among American women is largely due to anti-male culture, rather than inherent biology. Also, in the west, there are enough single older women that many of them have trouble finding a mate, so they start to get resentful of men their own age who prefer more attractive women. It's like r/theredpill for 40yo unattractive women instead of 20yo unattractive men.
Gil Galad 2016-11-06 14:02:07
I agree that what might be blamed on older women's attitude might be just culture-specific, although if I understood BD, he seems to have run into problems with over-33s of various cultures. But to any older woman who can't get why we prefer younger ones, I'll say: maybe the reasons are complex, but if you need just one, it's this: no matter what you do, the skin of a 19-year old has something that the skin of a 40-yo just doesn't. I don't know about other men, but this drives me crazy; younger women's skin (when they don't have a specific skin problem of course) is so darn attractive that even those who are largely overweight are still bangable, by a wide margin. That's it. There certainly are other reasons that may exacerbate things (although I do like older women for the fact that they do fewer mind games, in my experience), but that was the one that definitely isn't culture-specific. We'll still gladly sleep with older women but there is at least a slight qualitative difference, physique-wise. After all, there is an equivalent in men, slightly more subtle than just wrinkles: men over 50, even those who are very fit, have deltoids and especially pectorals that sag. They can still look good but the difference with an equally fit 35-yo is obvious and not in favor of the older guy.
Blackdragon 2016-11-06 15:38:58
I think women in their 30s and 40s are super gorgeous and have no problem whatsoever dating them or having sex with them. I always have at least one woman in her 30s or 40s in my group of women. My current OLTR is in her 30s. My only objection to women over age 33, and admittedly it's a big one, is that, statistically speaking, they're difficult to have sex with within 3 hours of face time via online dating (yes, there are unusual exceptions to the rule). But other than that, older women are great. And younger women are too, though for different reasons.
Lovergirl 2016-11-06 22:15:46
I’m sure there are more than enough men who are interested in you, but its night and day between 20 and 40 for women. . it is what it is. Men are attracted to attractive youthfulness. Sure, there are more than enough men who are interested and honestly the men that I meet at 40 are ten times higher quality than the ones when I was 20. I don't really feel this men preferring younger women thing in real life even though with all of the comments I see online I've been waiting for it to happen. It doesn't seem to... I'm getting older and older and nothing has changed. I still seem to have just as many men interested. Older men, younger men, across all races and social strata. Shouldn't this be slowing down by now? With me being 40 and incredibly nasty and gross and having terrible skin (because this is what 40 yr olds have? I had acne at 18... not at 40) plus I've had kids and that apparently makes me hideous as well. Oh and 40 yr olds are awful to have sex with.... Then there's this bossing guys around and being dominant... at what age does that start? I'm sure I'm well past it. I was describing my non-negative traits in response to the comments in posts above. Obviously I'm attractive enough that men still like me.
Lovergirl 2016-11-06 22:24:30
This paragraph is a case study in what I don’t like about many (not all) older women. The problem isn’t with women who are “smart” or “knowing what they are talking about.” It’s with the ones who think that just because they are smarter than other women it entitles them to talk down to their men or have an attitude. And also the accusation of “insecurity” reveals more about yourself than about us. No one accused anyone of anything. I asked, and I used that terminology because I know that is the stereotypical idea. I wanted to know if that is, in fact, a correct assumption after all. No, men are not “threatened” by or afraid of dominant, arrogant, or demanding women. We are simply disgusted by them, don’t find them at all attractive, and prefer to be with a more submissive, respectful partner. Another thing about many older (single) women – they are often more catty, resentful of men, and like to insult our masculinity when we don’t behave how they like (e.g. pursuing younger women instead of them). As your comment has aptly demonstrated. You might be reading too much into a comment if.....
SB 2016-11-06 23:21:02
Heya BD, I'll have to say that my experience with young chicks differ. While I'm still 28, the conversations I have with these girls are never as mundane as hair and shampoo. I reckon the best way to connect with these girls is to bring out your inner troll, essentially just taking the piss. Recalling the last 10 times I've got laid, every single time I've read them your articles on 3 types of men / women, then the convo naturally transitions into bad dates, sex talk, escalate, tell her to come watch robot chicken with me on YouTube, and sex. I think a topic all girls love discussing is beta males, bad dates, and Friend zoned men. Cheers Sb
Leon 2016-11-06 23:42:54
I always thought faking attention to her nonsense chat greatly undermine your value and bad for your frame, doesn't it? I'm 29yo but already can't stand having conversations with teenagers, most of the time I react by trying to derail, even force them to switch to a more mature topic. Is this bad or should I just let her bla bla all she wants while imagining about her naked body, for the sake of game? Btw, BD could you please write an article on LEADING, on how Alpha 2.0 leads his team, his family and his friend's circle in the situations that require leadership? (which mean more controlling and less outcome independence for maximum team effectiveness I suppose). Does that mean Alpha 1.0 is a better leader than an A2.0?)
JB 2016-11-07 01:13:41
Part of TMM is to find a unicorn that you have this great connection with along with all the other requirements (even listing them is too exhausting for a Sunday morning). Too often my primary social contact has been with my SO, and I am on a mission right now to expand my social circle. Part of the reasoning for this mission (certainly not the primary reason!) is to take pressure off of dating, to relax the need for deeper connection with women I’m dating.While getting social connections is certainly important, I want you to be very aware of a few of the dangers on this path. I am a very extroverted person, having friends in the whole spectrum, from my working circles (scientists) to people who've been unemployed for years with no education. Platonic female friends can be very comforting and can provide you with many great experiences. However, be very careful when getting new PFFs that you establish a good connection with. If they're even remotely hot, and you spend enough time with them to form a connection (which is exactly what it seems that you are trying to do), you are on the path of getting oneitis and must be very aware of this fact. If you ever catch yourself thinking about this girl (Wow! I've never had a connection like this! And she's cute as hell! I should probably try to get her as my girlfriend!), take a step back and immediately consider what you are doing. If you've started your relationship as platonic friends, it will never-ever leave this area, no matter how you "feel" you are connected to each other. While social connections are important, the best and most valuable connection you can get is with a woman whom you are sleeping with. You should always have an MLTR in the rooster whom you are able to form a deep connection with, having long and interesting conversations about topics you both thoroughly enjoy. Otherwise, while you may have abundance mentality (The belief that attractive women are always available to you), which it certainly seems that you do, you lack true abundance (The belief that there is an abundance of women whose looks and personalities are ideal to you). So thread the path wisely, and remember the essence of BD's "Platonic Female Friends" article:
Seriously, what is the point of spending time with a hot, intelligent woman you want to have sex with but can’t, when you could be spending your time with a hot, intelligent woman you are having sex with?
Bulma78 2016-11-07 07:28:32
In any case. I have to wonder what the men here are picturing when they talk about older women as well. I’m 40- I’ve yet to have a gray hair and I’m not wrinkled. I’m still fertile lol. I haven’t gotten fat though I would like to lose a few pounds. Men still are attracted to me- I work with the public and get hit on a ton. I don’t really see where the nastiness towards older women comes from.I believe they are picturing some washed up, has-been with a negative attitude and a sour look on their face. Hehe! I agree with Lovergirl. I’m 37 and I’m the epitome of youth and adorableness. Oh, and charm. Well, maybe that’s a slight stretch, but I don’t believe it’s an exaggeration either. I guess that’s why I was surprised that a few guys said that sex with someone their own age was terrible or tiring. But I have to remember that not all women are like me and Lovergirl; most of them are probably haggard and unpleasant. Also, I was just referring to sex only, as that was what the comments referred to. But I guess I have to give in to the fact that if you stand me next to a hot 21 year old and the guy has to pick, that he’s more likely to pick the 21 year old than me. On a side note, I don’t really understand what JudoJohn was talking about when he was describing his standard dates, but I’d love to put my hand on a 300 million year old block of sandstone or whatever that is! It sounds pretty rad.
Inquiring Mind 2016-11-07 10:18:02
First, great post, BD. I'm in my mid forties and my gf is late twenties. While I would never consider dating a 18-25 year old, I get the overall point. First, having a smoking hot young woman with perfect skin laying in bed next to you, there's nothing better. Second, the sex is just fantastic. After 15 years of bad sex while married, that testosterone boost from a younger woman is real, and powerful. I can literally have sex every day, and generally do. It's amazing. Beyond the sex and attraction, there is a big ego boost, and simply enjoying youthful energy and exuberance. Nothing compares. I have a wonderful relationship with my gf. She is gorgeous, sweet, loving, fun, charming and just rocking in bed. I get along better with her than any woman I've ever dated. Do I relate to her as well as I would a woman in 40's? No. Are there generational issues? Sometimes. But overall, there is no comparison in the happiness department. I'm perfectly free to enjoy relating to female friends my age, and going home to my beautiful young girlfriend. Strangely, I've dated far more young, hot women in my 40's than in my 30's. Don't fall for the SP "what do you talk about?" Who cares. Have fun, treat each other well and enjoy. No regrets for me. Life is good.
Blackdragon 2016-11-07 11:44:42
Btw, BD could you please write an article on LEADING, on how Alpha 2.0 leads his team, his family and his friend’s circle in the situations that require leadership? (which mean more controlling and less outcome independence for maximum team effectiveness I suppose).The 2.0 doesn't lead, and doesn't want to, so no, I won't be writing that article. Instead of saying, "You must do this!" which is what the Alpha 1.0 says, the Alpha 2.0 says, "You can do whatever you want and I'm never going to tell you what you do. But if you do this or this, you're out of my life and I'll go spend time with someone else." In a woman context, that means a solid outcome independent frame and soft nexting. In a business context, that means specific instructions, 1-2 warnings, then firing your subcontractor and quickly replacing him with his backup. The 1.0 method requires constant monitoring, correcting, lectures and arguments. The 2.0 method just involves nexting. Much easier.
Does that mean Alpha 1.0 is a better leader than an A2.0?I suppose you could argue that, perhaps. Since the Alpha 1.0 wants to lead and is excited to lead, and the Alpha 2.0 doesn't, and considers "leading," in the traditional sense, a necessary evil rather than something he wants to do.
Gil Galad 2016-11-07 11:45:27
But I guess I have to give in to the fact that if you stand me next to a hot 21 year old and the guy has to pick, that he’s more likely to pick the 21 year old than me@Bulma: this is all I'm saying, personally. Plus yes, you and Lovergirl aren't like the typical older woman, so our "accusations" might feel unfair to you.
JudoJohn 2016-11-07 13:34:09
JB, I hear you.
You should always have an MLTR in the roster whom you are able to form a deep connection with, having long and interesting conversations about topics you both thoroughly enjoy.I will admit to being somewhat intimidated by this idea. This is TMM/SO space so far in my life. But at the end of the day I am sure you are right. In fact, I have had pretty deep & interesting conversations even with one night stands (I agree with Blackdragon that ONS's are less than desirable because of limited ROI). To be quite honest, I've never had a FB, and knowing myself I think MLTR's of the type you describe would be both more to my liking and better aligned with my skill set. At this point in my life, I would rather have 2 MLTR's than 4 or 5 FB's. However, I am at the beginning of my non-monogamous road, so the most important trap to avoid is self limiting thoughts, and of course de-facto monogamy. Time will tell!
JB 2016-11-08 00:10:31
JudoJohn, My journey with nonmonogamy has not been very long as of yet, but let me tell you that it is the best I have ever felt in my life. While I did "mess up" some of my first MLTRs by spending more than one visit a week with them (because I thoroughly enjoyed their company so much and was completely enthralled with having three consistent "girlfriends" at the same time), I've come to really try and get things down to what I actually want. As you know, all girls have different qualities, interests and so on. The key here is that your girls need to fulfill some parts of your life and the different sides of you that you want to express. Now, don't get me wrong, you should never be afraid to fully express all sides of yourself, but girls will always respond according to their own personality. An OLTR candidate, of course, will respond well to you on all sides (which is why she is OLTR material in the first place). Let me give you an example of my current roster: MLTR 1) The scientist. We are in the same scientific field (Not colleagues!) and can thoroughly converse about subjects in that field. She fulfills my intellectual side (and has a great personality as well). MLTR 2) The nerd. This girl is in marketing, but she is a huge nerd. Comic-cons, superhero trivia, the whole package. I can especially enjoy watching good Marvel/DC movies with this girl, and she'll tingle my nerdy side (often more than I actually care about!) MLTR 3) The youngster. Being young, silly and inexperienced, this girl treats me like I am some kind of God. The first man she ever considered sleeping with. She adores my progress in life, and provides me with a lot of validation. Combined with a couple of long-term FBs and the occasional ONS, this setup provides me all the satisfaction I need, and I don't think I could even fit any close female friends into this schedule. (I have a lot of platonic female friends from back in my middle/high school days whom I see in groups with my other friends as well. I don't see them one on one or use them for any validation.) Don't be fooled: I do like one of these girls more than the others. Yes, some parts of me wants me to "commit" to her and shower her with lots of loving jibber-jabber (I never compliment MLTRs much, except for reinforcement). She is in my "love" box, and the others are in my "like very much" boxes. What I love about this setup is the fact that I have no jealousy in any of my relationships; She can go on and on about the guys who are trying to court her, and I'll sit back and laugh at all their pussy (or Alpha 1.0) attempts (you can literally see how attraction spikes when you are truly non-needy and non-jealous with a woman, even though she can tell that she clearly means something to you). So from one former serial-monogamist to another: You will not regret your transition to non-monogamy. It is literally the only system that keeps you truly and consistently happy. You clearly have no trouble getting girls in the first place, so you'll have no trouble filling a roster of your own with quality girls to fulfil your every need, without ever looking for someone to be "just friends" with.
JudoJohn 2016-11-08 09:01:40
JB, internet stranger now friend, I wish I could buy you a beer. You're speaking my language. Your rotation is solid and would suit me nicely. Honestly, they remind me of my last two LTR's. One was a raging nerd, the other a hardcore science type (for the first year she was also very young, she granted me the honor of ending her virginity, but the worship thing ended before the first year was out lol). Your comment really captures a really important thing about non-monogamy.....getting away from the stress of finding a goddamn unicorn. What a great rotation you have! I'm still marveling. Of course, you will eventually be LSNFTE'd, but it sounds like you'll be good to go anyway. It was a rational process that brought me to this place, basically game theory lite. I tire of the serial monogamy merry-go-round, I do not desire marriage or children, I can pull higher quality girlfriends than wives anyway, and being with a much younger woman is no abstraction for me, it was 4.5 years of my life. I know how to hold my head up high with a much younger woman on my arm.....it's a balancing act of avoiding arrogance (which she won't like) and being proud (which she loves). The difference for me is going in with a non-monogamous frame in the first place. Societal Programming makes this frame "selfish" and this is pretty deeply wired into most of us. Taking a deep dive, though, it is clear to me that it's usually men who push for exclusivity, and exclusivity in absence of commitment is far more selfish than holding a non-monogamous frame. My first wife burned many reproductive years with me (22 to 30 but she had 4 kids anyway). My second wife, not as many but prime years (26 to 30). My last LTR burned prime years health wise but she was an undergrad and didn't want kids yet (19 to 24). So.....I have monopolized 17 years of prime reproductive potential. Enough. The one place we might have talked past each other a bit is on Platonic relationships. The only important Platonic relationships for me are those with my buddies girlfriends/wives (outside of the professional world, of course). It's really a male social circle that I am trying to build, not to the exclusion of women because women are awesome, but I definitely don't want to be orbiting. My lifestyle is such that many women are judgmental, so managing that as well as possible is important to my social life. I am pretty good at it. Thanks for the boost this morning! If you're ever in Denver, I'd love to buy you a beer!
JB 2016-11-08 10:31:54
Your comment really captures a really important thing about non-monogamy…..getting away from the stress of finding a goddamn unicorn. What a great rotation you have! I’m still marveling. Of course, you will eventually be LSNFTE’d, but it sounds like you’ll be good to go anyway.Exactly! It's about understanding that no woman enjoys everything that you do, and thus you should get your "needs" fulfilled from different places. Also, think about it like this: When things end with the only woman who fulfils you, you will be left with nothing. This is why variance is so important. My scientist leaves me? Gotta find a new scientist. The youngster leaves? I'll find somebody else who can boost my ego. And, as you said, they will leave (at least temporarily), but as we all know, they eventually leave in a monogamous relationship anyway. The difference is the painful separation that we've all experienced (Which I'm certain is part of what you are trying to escape from).
I tire of the serial monogamy merry-go-round, I do not desire marriage or children, I can pull higher quality girlfriends than wives anyway, and being with a much younger woman is no abstraction for me, it was 4.5 years of my life. .. The difference for me is going in with a non-monogamous frame in the first place. Societal Programming makes this frame “selfish” and this is pretty deeply wired into most of us. Taking a deep dive, though, it is clear to me that it’s usually men who push for exclusivity, and exclusivity in absence of commitment is far more selfish than holding a non-monogamous frame.You hit it right on the nail here. I don't desire marriage or children either (children, maybe some day, under the right conditions), but at first, I thought exclusivity was the only "acceptable" standard as well. Being a horny bastard, I of course ended up cheating on some of the gals (something I am NOT proud of), but that was still more societally acceptable than being non-monogamous from the get-go. Strange world, isn't it? Now, for me at first, obtaining a non-monogamous frame was of course hard, for the reasons you describe: Societal programming. It takes some serious balls to go against everyone else - Especially when it feels like a fairytale rather than fact. Even when you have your first rotation (e.g. your ideal situation of two high-end MLTRs), you'll still feel that what you are actually doing somehow seems impossible. After a while, like everything else, it becomes second nature. Even talking about it with your friends and family, should they inquire as to how your love life is going. Now, as for the social circle mix-up, I'm certainly sorry that we talked past each other - Finding new male friends is certainly a good thing. Over the past couple of years, however, I've certainly come to realise that some of my old chaps were really not providing anything of value to my life, whereas guys with similar mindsets (and ambitions!) have suddenly peaked my social interests.
My lifestyle is such that many women are judgmental, so managing that as well as possible is important to my social life.Now before I put too many assumptions into that statement, I should probably say that 1) A non-monogamous lifestyle in general will be judged by women, but their attraction for you, at least secretly, will spike through the roof. As long as you are honest about your lifestyle, you'll have everyone intrigued, including the SO's of your friends as well as everyone else. I'm not certain that this is what you meant - Should they have an actual reason to judge your lifestyle that is not SP based (i.e. you take a lot of drugs, you do something illegal etc.), you should probably get rid of the cause of their judgement instead. It would certainly be amazing to have a beer together some time - I am Scandinavian though, and thus on the other side of the earth. I do plan to live and work in the US for a couple of years in the near future, and should we stay in touch, we should certainly arrange for a nice cold one. By then, I'm sure we'll both have many stories. It'll certainly be a please to discuss it here on the forums until then.
JudoJohn 2016-11-08 11:26:04
As long as you are honest about your lifestyle, you’ll have everyone intrigued, including the SO’s of your friends as well as everyone else. I’m not certain that this is what you meant – Should they have an actual reason to judge your lifestyle that is not SP based (i.e. you take a lot of drugs, you do something illegal etc.), you should probably get rid of the cause of their judgement instead.Such refreshing skepticism!
The difference is the painful separation that we’ve all experienced (Which I’m certain is part of what you are trying to escape from).Yep. My last LTR (the youngest one I've ever had) left this past summer to go to a high end PhD program in computational biology. She helped me set up a wicked bachelor pad before she left. Black and stainless steel everywhere. Dinner for 6 is no problem. I have a career as an analyst for a renewable energy consultancy, I backpack and play judo, and sometimes drink a tad too much wine. The judgments are not negative. Cheers!
The New Yorker 2016-12-12 15:08:03
Hey BD, This is off topic, but anyway, if a woman tries to shake your hand on the first date, how do you refuse her? You stated that since the first date isn't a business meeting, handshakes shouldn't be considered at all. But I'm interested in knowing specifically 1) why handshakes are bad, 2) how you explain to the woman why you won't do so, and 3) correct ways of greeting her. During the last couple of dates I refused the handshakes, and the girls seemed slightly distrustful and confused.
Anon. 2016-12-12 17:17:31
Here are some things to do instead of shaking hands: http://www.girlschase.com/content/tactics-tuesdays-hugs-handclasps-arm-shoulders
Sam-G 2019-06-18 05:03:19
Dear Blackdragon, I read this article just a few minutes ago. It is as if you replied personally to me. I am an attractive 36-year old man with amazing fundamentals (who by all accounts does not show his age). This allows me to interact with very young women. During the last 5 days, I spent time with a 19-year old hot model type of girl. She was my type of girl appearance-wise. My personal 8,5 or 9. Tall, blonde, green eyes, long natural hair, thin waist, incredible ass and long beautiful legs. It started as an emotional summer romance and I ended up having sex 3 times before she left back to her home country for summer vacations. After that I proposed to her to come back to visit me and spend a few days with me at a sea resort (I live in Greece). She sent me a long text one day after my proposal to say how much she supposedly liked me but how unprepared she was to get to know me better or deeper. I was adult about it and wished her well. End of story. Conclusion: although the conversation with her was not boring or about hair conditioners and while there was some "emotional connection" (she melted in my arms every time I kissed her, she told me she likes me really much and she hoped that I wouldn't ruin it etc) it seems that VYW can't handle the "heaviness" or "seriousness" of the connection and eventually bail out anyway. So, my two cents: EVEN if you manage to connect, they will not stick around. They want lightness, experimentation and fun. Not emotions and heavy romance. And yes I got slightly disappointed because I would like to keep her around for a while. Your article helped me a lot and gave me perspective. Thank you very much. I will be prepared next time and not let myself think that I live a romance with such a young girl. Instead, I will just focus only on having wild sex with girls of that age group.