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What Are “Boyfriend Behaviors?”
One of the rules you must follow for FB and MLTR relationships is to never demonstrate “boyfriend behaviors.” They cause nothing but problems, thus you must be aware of what they are. Even with OLTR relationships, where some of these behaviors are allowed, they need to be tightly controlled and your outcome independent, Alpha frame must be rock solid at all times.Why Are Boyfriend Behaviors Bad?
-By Caleb Jones
1. They significantly shorten NRE. If you give a woman all she wants, her comfort with you sets in much faster than if you do not.
2. They increase the likelihood of drama. Once again, it’s about comfort. If she feels she has you by the balls because you’re kissing her ass all the time, she’ll feel more “comfortable” about giving you drama because she’ll know you’re more likely to put up with it.
3. They raise, or at least continue, the expectation for future boyfriend behaviors, and conflict will occur if she doesn’t get them. For example, if for Valentines Day you give her jewelry, a fancy dinner and a limousine ride, next year she’ll expect the exact same thing. If you do anything less next year, she’ll actually be disappointed even if she doesn’t have a gold-digging bone in her body. If you just take her out to dinner on V-Day and that’s it, next year that’s all she’ll expect. Boyfriend behaviors constantly raise the bar in terms of her future expectations of you.
4. They increase betaization and the likelihood of demands for things like sexual monogamy. The reasons why should be obvious. The more you act like a traditional boyfriend, the more she’ll expect you to be one.
What Exactly Are Boyfriend Behaviors?
A boyfriend behavior isn’t “anything nice” or “anything romantic.” With MLTRs, some nice, romantic (or romantic-ish) behaviors are okay. (Nothing romantic at all is allowed with FBs .)
Taking a MLTR out on a date to a nice dinner is perfectly fine. Having her spend the night is also fine. Cuddling a little is also perfectly fine. These are romantic behaviors, but they aren’t necessarily boyfriend behaviors. The difference is that she is accustomed to men who were not her boyfriend doing these things in the past.
She’s probably already spent the night with a guy who was not her boyfriend, and she’s most definitely received a free dinner at a restaurant from a man who was not her boyfriend. Therefore, it’s okay do to these things with a MLTR, provided you’re following all of the other nonmonogamous relationship rules (don’t contact her very often, only see her once a week, make sure she cums every time you have sex, etc). If you aren’t doing these things, then even these simple and nice but non-boyfriend behaviors will cause problems for you. For the remainder of this article, I’m going to assume that you’re doing all of the relationship rules correctly.
A “romantic” behavior becomes a “boyfriend” behavior when it feels like only a boyfriend would do it. This difference can be difficult to describe, so the best way is through a few examples. Here’s a list of things that are romantic but non-boyfriend behaviors, and are thus okay in a MLTR or similar relationship:
1. Going out to dinner and paying for it.
2. Cuddling, eye gazing, and other physical romantic contact.
3. Spending the night (as long you’re still only seeing her once a week).
4. Sincere compliments that have nothing to do with her appearance.
5. Getting her a card and/or a small, inexpensive gift for her birthday or Christmas.
1. Talking on the phone every day (even if she initiates it).
2. Texting every day (even if she initiates it).
3. Seeing her more than once a week.
4. Spending many days in a row with her.
5. Extravagant dates that involve real money spent and/or multiple venues, where you pay for the entire thing.
6. Meeting her parents, or her meeting yours.
7. Romantic gifts (roses, chocolates, etc)
8. Expensive gifts (jewelry, etc)
9. Trips, where you both go away for several days and you pay for all of it or most of it.
10. Giving her cash, loaning her money, or helping her out with her bills. (Exception to this rule: If you’re doing full-bore sugar daddy game.)
11. Telling her you love her.
12. Telling her you miss her or are thinking about her.
These are all things boyfriends do. They are above and beyond something a guy she’s dating would do. If you engage in any of these boyfriend behaviors, say hello to some drama, demands, or both, in short order.
When Are Boyfriend Behaviors Appropriate?
Boyfriend behaviors are never appropriate for FBs.
Boyfriend behaviors are never appropriate for low-end MLTRs.Some boyfriend behaviors might be okay for a high-end MLTR, but realize that you’re really pushing the envelope if you do this. I only recommend boyfriend behaviors for a high-end MLTR if you feel you are pretty experienced with nonmonogamy and have a good, solid, Alpha frame. If you’re still at the beginner or even intermediate level of relationship game, boyfriend behaviors should be avoided for all MLTRs, low or high.
Boyfriend behaviors are allowed for an OLTR. However! As I’ve said many times, having an OLTR girlfriend is not a license to start being a beta. You can love her all you want, but you cannot get oneitis. She must fully understand that you’re going to keep having sex with other women (FBs only), and be doing so forever, since you don't want any of the typical, feminine "someday he'll change" stuff in her head. She needs to understand that if she starts throwing any serious drama or demands your way as a pattern of behavior, you will end the relationship without hesitation. As always, your outcome independent frame must be 100% ironclad with this stuff, or else it will blow up in your face later.If you don’t think you have the discipline or self control to do that kind of thing yet, avoid having an OLTR until you feel you’re ready. Stick with FBs and MLTRs. FBs and MLTRs are fucking awesome, so there’s never any rush to get an OLTR.
But I Want To Do Boyfriend Behaviors!
I know that some of you are going to read this and respond with,
“But BD, I like doing stuff like that with women, even if she’s not my girlfriend or OLTR or whatever.”
I don’t care what you like. Facts are facts, and the facts are that if you start doing this stuff with a non-OLTR, you’re in for drama and shit down the road. If you’re one of those guys who likes drama or doesn't mind drama, then by all means, ignore all of my advice and do whatever you want. But if you like long-term happiness instead, you’ve got to follow these parameters.Remember that at some point, you can get an OLTR, and as long as you keep your balls, you can be Mr. Boyfriend, or even Mr. Husband, and do all of that romantic crap. You just can’t do that until A) you know you can handle it and B) you find a woman who qualifies for OLTR. In my book that means she’s a near-perfect MLTR, with zero or minimal drama or demands, for at least 6-12 months before you upgrade her to OLTR status. As always, OLTR status is something that a woman must earn. It’s not something you just throw at a girl because you like her.What If She Demands Boyfriend Behaviors?
What if she texts you every day? What if she demands more expensive or extravagant dates? What if she demands that you see her more often than once a week? What if she demands you stop having sex with other women on the side?
You politely and gently tell her no. Give her any excuse you want, but don’t fall for it. If she gives you drama about it, INSTANT SOFT NEXT! If she dumps or LSNFTEs you, then fine, let her go.
The point is to never engage in boyfriend behaviors just because a woman complains about them or demands them. If she doesn’t like it, that’s her problem. She’s welcome to dump you and go get with a beta who will chop off his own balls by kissing her ass any time she wants. Boyfriend behaviors are only something you do when you want to do them, in a scenario where they make sense (a long-term OLTR or possibly a high-end MLTR).
As always, this is your life. You’re in charge. Do the right things at the right time, and you’ll be rewarded with long-term happiness. Do otherwise, and you’ll be like most other men; constantly fighting and having drama with the women they’re dating.
The choice is yours. Choose wisely.
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CurtsNOKC 2016-11-17 06:28:51
Great article and I can honestly say now after living w my GF for ONLY 3 months, this is very true. Before this, I was always non-exclusively dating since divorced 3 years ago. Not only Drama but controlling tactics and very accusing as well but she's a Leo so lol. Anyways, I've told her I'd like to move out but still date her non-exclusively. She is OK w this but then asks if I'm gonna promise her I'm wearing a condom w others!? If I don't, then she doesn't wanna date me cuz worried about STDs. So, my question is, is promising her this a "boyfriend behavior"? She also doesn't want to wear a condom w me. Lol
POB 2016-11-17 06:32:49
Another great article, thanks BD! Took me a couple of bad break-ups to figure out an important lesson about relationships: it's all about expectations! Don't raise them if you don't want to deliver. But if you really want to deliver (like high-end MLTRS and OLTRs) you should do it VERY slowly. Truth is once you start to drop the romantic bullshit and focus on more relevant aspects of the relationship (like sex and companionship) most women will notice it and act accordingly. The best part is after a while, when it becomes part of who you are, every little gift or night out changes from an obligation to a meaningful event. My though process is always something like this: "I won't give you anything else because we are already dating, which means I'm giving you with the most important thing I have: my time".
Anthony 2016-11-17 06:40:35
(sighs) I felt my skin crawl while reading this. Jesus Christ, never doing that boyfriend crap again. POB is definitely right on the expectations part. The woman thinks you'll give her the moon right up until she realizes you won't....then she is gone.
JB 2016-11-17 06:57:22
Great article, and very important indeed. Even though some women will still read your poly EFA wrong (inexperienced girls), you best be on your toes and avoid all this stupid beta crap. To be honest, one of the greatest things of going non-monogamous was the fact that your dating/relationship expenses as well as expectations go way down. I had my head filled with SP about how it was somehow my duty to maintain the relationship emotionally and economically. What a relief!
Anyways, I’ve told her I’d like to move out but still date her non-exclusively. She is OK w this but then asks if I’m gonna promise her I’m wearing a condom w others!? If I don’t, then she doesn’t wanna date me cuz worried about STDs. So, my question is, is promising her this a “boyfriend behavior”? She also doesn’t want to wear a condom w me. Lol1) You should always wrap your cock unless the girl has proven sexually responsible, she has a very certain birth control method (i.e. operated into her vagina) and she is proven clean of STDs. Her demand to you is something you should be doing anyway. 2) Really? You think that it might be boyfriend-ish to discuss your sexual behavior towards other women with your OLTR/MLTR?
Gil Galad 2016-11-17 08:08:44
What if the very reason I bother to have an MLTR instead of just FBs is my need to engage in boyfriend behavior ? Frankly if it weren't for that, I could easily do FBs forever: I don't need 'companionship' (at my current age anyway), I just have romantic urges on top of the sexual ones. It seems like a bad deal to have to go through all the process of perfecting the handling of MLTRs and testing multiple OLTR candidates until one qualifies when I'm like 40 or 50, especially that an OLTR by definition is a woman you love while loving no other - I'll go through all that just to have one woman with whom I can behave this way. Why not risk some bf behavior while ready to next when the negative consequences start creeping up ? If consistent, long-term happiness means I'm getting one opportunity (and one woman) per decade or so to indulge in something I need almost as much as sex - since that's the kind of frequency you'll have given such severe standards for allowing BF B - , then it's not happiness at all, it's a frustration on par with not getting laid often enough. I'm only speaking for myself of course; other men may need romance much less frequently.
MoChnk 2016-11-17 09:15:43
4. Sincere compliments that have nothing to do with her appearance.Why is giving her compliments for her appearance not allowed as a romantic behavior? If it counts as a boyfriend behavior, you have missed it in the list of boyfriend behaviors. But even then my question still remains. What is bad about telling a woman she is beautiful when you're already in a relationship with her and she's locked-in? Like Gil Galad already said, I also have the urge for romantic stuff. We all do to some degree. Regarding your love language blog post, I like giving compliments (and I don't care about gifts.)
JudoJohn 2016-11-17 09:37:34
Rings true to me. One woman I'm seeing now is in her last year of her PhD...finish or fail, and she's behind. I bent the contact rule somewhat to ride her ass to work harder, and it failed miserably. The reward she wants for a solid day of work is a good railing, but that only happens once a week. It's not a big time commitment, it's only 2-3 minutes, "So, did you get X done?" But it just leads to drama, because every goddamn time she wants to get together. It's time for the talk with her. I think this is the hardest part of the Alpha 2.0 life. As Blackdragon mentioned elsewhere, it's so easy to get a traditional girlfriend. It's hard to back off on decades of conditioning, but attraction fades, I've seen it over and over, and am tired of being on the wrong side of it. I'm really glad that I've been reading this blog for about 4 months before jumping back into dating. I pitched a date to a cute bi chick on Sunday, and we agreed on last night. It was after about 4 exchanges of messages, mostly about eating cows. I left her entirely alone until yesterday, and she wanted to get together but there was just a lot of stuff going on for her, so she canceled. I said "That puts you in the spot of using a prime weekend night on a first date :)" to which she replied "Saturday or Sunday?" Turns out she's an early bird, not a night owl, and she's driving an hour to meet me...I'll be walking 8 minutes....she might have been bullshitting me about last night, but she's a grown ass professional woman, so I'm taking her at her word. Still, if she cancels Saturday night, it will be "No more plans, but if you're ready to get in your car and drive, text me and I'll let you know if I'm available." I know that neither of these stories align exactly with the post, but this whole Alpha 2.0 thing is shockingly different from what most of us are used to.....and as far as I can tell, it is effective. I would be handling both of these situations differently and probably less effectively if I was still in the beta mindset I spent most of my life in.
Joe K 2016-11-17 09:52:12
Re: "But I Want To Do Boyfriend Behaviors!' Another perspective on this is that with a *new* FB, you can practice boyfriend behaviors to whatever extent you find enjoyable, for as long as you want....until she starts throwing drama at you. Then you just ghost her, immediately. It was good while it lasted. Again, this would only for new FBs, not long time casual hook-up acquaintances et al. A chick is still responsible for creating whatever drama she creates, even if we all recognize her tendency to do this when on the receiving end of certain male behaviors. You never treated her otherwise because she's new in your life, so if she can't handle being treated so well by you without turning into a nasty bitch, then fuck her - that's her problem, not yours. Just disappear and treat some other girl like a million bucks. Again - IF this is your thing. YMMV.
johnnybegood 2016-11-17 10:23:27
Still not exactly sure what you're getting at here. I mean, most girls WANT a boyfriend guy, don't they? Or maybe not ... I'm not sure. I assumed most did. If she's just using you for dick, well that's a win-win scenario I guess and then everything you described makes perfect sense. Otherwise - what are you doing? Just trying to keep her emotional investment at bay for as long as possible until she says fuck this and finds a committed boyfriend like she really wants (and possibly comes crawling back a year or two later, maybe, for a brief fling, unless she gets married). Sounds like a lot of work having 3-4 girls trying to keep coming at you for committment and having to beat each one back every week. And then at the end of the day, with these rules for yourself -- like you can't take a weekend getaway with a girl or see her 2-3 days in a single week --- aren't you just having 3-4 half-assed relationships where you're not getting the full emotional nicotine or life experience you truly desire? Just wondering - I know you say monogamy doesn't work and assuming that's true, this is the next best option?
JudoJohn 2016-11-17 10:42:45
Another perspective on this is that with a *new* FB, you can practice boyfriend behaviors to whatever extent you find enjoyable, for as long as you want….until she starts throwing drama at you. Then you just ghost her, immediately. It was good while it lasted.Good God that sounds like a lot of work......and a good way to leave emotional wreckage behind, to boot.
Financier 2016-11-17 10:42:59
Yep, familiarity breeds contempt. And that's true of so many things in life.
Anon. 2016-11-17 11:02:35
Johnny, let’s approach it from another angle. One needs 3+ women in his life to avoid the risk of de facto monogamy, and with that in mind, 2+ meets per week seems rather high. At the same time, I fail to see how infrequent weekend getaways could do real harm.
Blackdragon 2016-11-17 11:15:26
Anyways, I’ve told her I’d like to move out but still date her non-exclusively. She is OK w this but then asks if I’m gonna promise her I’m wearing a condom w others!? If I don’t, then she doesn’t wanna date me cuz worried about STDs. So, my question is, is promising her this a “boyfriend behavior”?No. That's a standard rule in OLTRs, so if she's an OLTR, you're fine. (If she's a MLTR, you need to tell her to go pound sand and you can do whatever you want.)
What if the very reason I bother to have an MLTR instead of just FBs is my need to engage in boyfriend behavior ?I clearly answered that in the article. It doesn't matter what you want. Only the facts matter. I don't want to pay income tax, but I pay it.
It seems like a bad deal to have to go through all the process of perfecting the handling of MLTRs and testing multiple OLTR candidates until one qualifies when I’m like 40 or 50Dude...that sounds like a paradise to me. MLTRs are wonderful. To each their own I guess.
Why not risk some bf behavior while ready to next when the negative consequences start creeping up ?Because you'll be nexting constantly. If all you want are a string of very short term MLTRs (six months or less), then go ahead. I personally don't like nexting or drama. I prefer long-term, low-drama relationships instead. But again, to each his own.
Why is giving her compliments for her appearance not allowed as a romantic behavior?Complimenting a woman's appearance, at any phase, is very dangerous and can create betaization much faster if your frame isn't 100% Alpha and the woman involved isn't someone you've known for a very long time. Read this and this.
Another perspective on this is that with a *new* FB, you can practice boyfriend behaviors to whatever extent you find enjoyable, for as long as you want….until she starts throwing drama at you. Then you just ghost her, immediately. It was good while it lasted.As I said, if you honestly don't care how short these relationships are, you can ignore my rules and do whatever you like as long as you next fast.
Otherwise – what are you doing? Just trying to keep her emotional investment at bay for as long as possible until she says fuck this and finds a committed boyfriend like she really wants (and possibly comes crawling back a year or two later, maybe, for a brief fling, unless she gets married).Yes. I didn't make the rules or design the system here. I'm just here to utilize the existing system of flawed human biology to make me as long-term happy as possible. (If I was god, I would have designed women (and men) to behave a little more rationally.)
Sounds like a lot of work having 3-4 girls trying to keep coming at you for committment and having to beat each one back every week.That won't happen. FBs won't ever push for commitment (unless you're doing something very wrong). Only MLTRs will, and even some of those won't. If you literally had had 3-4 MLTRs on rotation all at at the same time, yeah, that'd be a shitload of work, but I don't recommend that and never have. 1 MLTR and 1 FB is all most men need; perhaps 1-2 MLTRs and 1-2 FBs if you're a really horny guy like me.
And then at the end of the day, with these rules for yourself — like you can’t take a weekend getaway with a girl or see her 2-3 days in a single week — aren’t you just having 3-4 half-assed relationships where you’re not getting the full emotional nicotine or life experience you truly desire?You're describing MLTRs only. If you want something more emotional/serious, you do an OLTR instead, which is what I have; boyfriend stuff is allowed there. I have a girlfriend (OLTR) right now. We do the serious / romantic shit all the time (but I keep my frame, as stated in the above article).
Duke 2016-11-17 11:35:16
It's funny how I've finally realized recently that beta behavior isn't really about the girl. It's totally selfish behavior that men enjoy doing, without caring how the women will react. It's essentially a very enjoyable indulgence that is hard for the average man not to engage in. We must enact countermeasures and be disciplined by not indulging in this pathetic behavior. No simping allowed!!
E.S. 2016-11-17 11:35:24
Crucial post. Just achieved"lock-in" for the first time on purpose. Gotta move on of my parents place. These sleep overs have been risky.
CrabRangoon 2016-11-17 12:03:18
I can attest that keeping serious BF behaviors at bay will keep the desire alive for much longer with most women. The minute you start caving to her demands, you'll notice at least a small drop-off in her desire and pleasant demeanor. It will only get worse from there once they feel they own your balls. As they qualify towards a high end MLTR or even OLTR then you can do things like weekend getaways.
Blackdragon 2016-11-17 12:21:07
It’s funny how I’ve finally realized recently that beta behavior isn’t really about the girl. It’s totally selfish behavior that men enjoy doing, without caring how the women will react.EXACTLY. EVERYONE SHOULD READ THOSE TWO SENTENCES AGAIN. HE'S EXACTLY RIGHT.
FiveSix 2016-11-17 13:23:18
What about conversation topics? On one first date, after having sex, a woman confided in me about a time she was brutally raped. I kept my mouth shut and listened, and quickly gave my sympathies, but it seems like I treading on thin ice here by letting her talk about something so personal.
Gil Galad 2016-11-17 14:15:03
I clearly answered that in the article. It doesn’t matter what you want. Only the facts matter. I don’t want to pay income tax, but I pay it.I was aware of that, that's why I reframed boyfriend urges as an analog to sexual ones, which is not a dishonest reframing. You don't want to pay income tax, but you pay it...and you don't want to go without sex, but you don't go without anyway: you devise a plan to get sex consistently. It's just that since quasi-absence of drama and length of relationships are higher on your priority list than "frequently satisfying boyfriend urges", the latter fail to keep the status of a goal and become the thing that must be sacrificed for the more important stuff. Which goal is like sex and which goal is like 'not paying taxes' depend on personality, not just the facts that are independent of the person. Of course the weakness here is that I'd have less of a claim than you to permanent happiness and absence of "lows" (and if I next quickly the lows are not so bad or long), but to me being able to do boyfriend stuff every two years instead of every decade is like getting laid three times per week instead of twice per month: it's just so much better that some inconveniences become acceptable. Maybe I'll be much more like you when I'm you age.
It’s funny how I’ve finally realized recently that beta behavior isn’t really about the girl. It’s totally selfish behavior that men enjoy doing, without caring how the women will react.I partly agree, but that - on its own - doesn't make it less legitimate than seeking sex. Yes, sex is reciprocal pleasure, but let's be honest and admit we'd still try to get it if women were only neutral about it and not heterosexual (the tradcon fantasy): so nothing changes. So we're not seeking sex because we're generous or egalitarian, we're seeking it selfishly, sorry, and we do bf behavior selfishly. And even that needs a grain of salt: if you're gonna tell me that bf b is selfish "because the girl only likes it initially and then she'll be the one hurt etc", you all know that that applies to many female FBs who intially like the casual sex and then catch feelings and must be nexted. So really, as long as you're lucid about the relative importance of those two urges to you, I don't see how it's less legitimate to carefully plan how to satisfy your "Bf drive" than to carefully plan how to satisfy your sex drive. And to me, a plan that allows for bf behavior once in a blue moon when a perfect OLTR candidate finally qualifies is not a success, but a near utter failure (to me that is. I fully agree that BD is very successful on his terms).
Blackdragon 2016-11-17 15:25:17
What about conversation topics? On one first date, after having sex, a woman confided in me about a time she was brutally raped. I kept my mouth shut and listened, and quickly gave my sympathies, but it seems like I treading on thin ice here by letting her talk about something so personal.That's perfectly fine and I do that on first dates all the time. Listening to a woman talk is not a boyfriend behavior. Just make sure the conversation doesn't get too negative. If she's talking about rape while her face is dark and she's about to cry, that's not a good idea and you need to change the subject. I but if she mentions it a few times and it doesn't change the tenor of the conversation, that's fine.
I was aware of that, that’s why I reframed boyfriend urges as an analog to sexual ones, which is not a dishonest reframing. You don’t want to pay income tax, but you pay it…and you don’t want to go without sex, but you don’t go without anyway: you devise a plan to get sex consistently. It’s just that since quasi-absence of drama and length of relationships are higher on your priority list than “frequently satisfying boyfriend urges”, the latter fail to keep the status of a goal and become the thing that must be sacrificed for the more important stuff. Which goal is like sex and which goal is like ‘not paying taxes’ depend on personality...You are way over thinking this and you've lost me completely. Maybe some other commenters can help you.
donnie demarco 2016-11-17 15:49:21
I mean, most girls WANT a boyfriend guy, don’t they? Or maybe not … I’m not sure. I assumed most did. If she’s just using you for dick, well that’s a win-win scenario I guess and then everything you described makes perfect sense.Women don't want just one thing. They want EVERYTHING. Remember the Twilight series? When Bella needed her motorcycle fixed, she called Jacob. When she wanted dick, she called Edward. That's why the distinction between boyfriend and non-boyfriend behaviors is important. Women want everything, but you can't be everything. So you have to choose. Do you wanna fix motorcycles, or do you wanna give orgasms? Make your decision, then use the list above as your guide.
MoChnk 2016-11-17 17:10:26
Complimenting a woman’s appearance, at any phase, is very dangerous and can create betaization much faster if your frame isn’t 100% Alpha and the woman involved isn’t someone you’ve known for a very long time. Read this and this.Both of these two blog posts are about complimenting a woman's appearance pre-lay. My question was about complimenting her appearance in an already established relationship. Let's analyse your stated six reasons against complimenting on a woman's appearance in a relationship scenario:(since I'm talking about the relationship scenario and not the dating scenario I think it's okay to discuss these points in this thread and not in the other one)
1. You’re not telling her anything she doesn’t already know.Of course she knows it. But she wants to hear it from a man she's emotionally attached to.
2. Hundreds, if not thousands of men have already told her this.Yes, random men and ex-lovers (thus men she doesn't have an emotional connection to, or in the case of some ex-lovers, not a positive emotional connection). As a man who already bangs her you are in an entirely different situation.
3. It’s not a compliment.Within a relationship it is indeed a compliment. Women will say "Only when you say it, it means something to me." Do you think this is all BS and part of her SP to be nice when receiving a compliment? I have noticed that many women are so insecure about their looks (even when they're models) that in a relationship scenario it actually does have a strong positive effect and strengthens her connection to you.
4. It reduces your odds of a lay.Only relevant while in dating mode. In relationship mode it becomes irrelevant, because you're already having sex with her.
5. It damages your Alpha standing in her eyes.I'm not saying you should be doing it all the time. Just very infrequently. Infrequent compliments have a strong psychological effect and increase attraction. I don't find the article right now that talks about infrequent validation and it's psychological effects, but I remember that the author said this technique is a strong tool for keeping attraction high. The key is: don't overuse compliments, but use them very sparingliy, and use them randomly so they're always a surprise, which makes them way more effective. Maybe I have read this somewhere about dog training. Doesn't matter. There are many parallels between women and dogs.
6. It damages your Outcome Independence, whether you realize it or not.If a compliment leads to her becoming bitchy/dramatic you can instantly soft next her and then she will know for sure that a compliment isn't a free ride ticket for taking you for granted. It's a compliment, nothing else. When you have a strong Alpha phrame she will know this. So going back to your answer: You also just said that it is dangerous and can create betaization much faster IF your frame isn't 100% Alpha. This, in turn means that if you don't tolerate any drama and remain Alpha and nonmonogamous etc. you can compliment a woman on her appearance when you're already in an established relationship with her. So under these conditions you agree with me, am I right?
Blackdragon 2016-11-17 17:17:45
she wants to hear it from a man she’s emotionally attached to.I don't care what she wants. If I cared about what women wanted, I'd be instantly monogamous and throwing money and marriage proposals at them all day long. I care about how women react to my words and actions, not what they say they want.
As a man who already bangs her you are in an entirely different situation.If you're constantly slathering her with compliments about how beautiful and hot she is, it's going to affect the relationship negatively, over time. As I said in the above article, and I quote: Having an OLTR girlfriend is not a license to start being a beta
I’m not saying you should be doing it all the time. Just very infrequently.Then we agree.
Parade 2016-11-17 17:21:13
You are way over thinking this and you’ve lost me completely. Maybe some other commenters can help you. It's pretty simple, he's saying that he has two drives, one is to engage in at least one instance of romantic behavior every 3-5 days, and the other is to have sex. For you, the desire to have sex is far stronger than the desire to be romantic. He's asking if there's a way to be romantic and fulfill those desires. There are two methods that I believe can achieve this, but I don't have much experience with them(I have very little romantic desire). Method one: Give up sex with the romantic partner. She's not getting everything she wants, and she's likely to get to that point anyway. Method two: Sugar Daddy. It's expected there that you pay for things, and that the guys are at least somewhat alpha or fatherly. Springing for a 3 day vacation with a SB doesn't automatically lead her to believing you're going to be a mono boyfriend with her -- that vacation is half the reason she's seeing you.
Blackdragon 2016-11-17 17:32:40
It’s pretty simple, he’s saying that he has two drives, one is to engage in at least one instance of romantic behavior every 3-5 days, and the other is to have sex. For you, the desire to have sex is far stronger than the desire to be romantic. He’s asking if there’s a way to be romantic and fulfill those desires.Yes. Have an OLTR to be romantic with every week, and 1-3 FBs on the side to fuck. However, I think he's saying he wants to be romantic with MLTRs, and whenever he wants, not with just a single OLTR who takes time to find. If that's the case, the answer to your question is, "Not without a lot of drama." My original statement to him stands: he's making this way too complicated and difficult for himself. (Based on many of his prior comments, he has a tendency to overthink and overanalyze things.)
AL 2016-11-17 18:00:20
It’s funny how I’ve finally realized recently that beta behavior isn’t really about the girl. It’s totally selfish behavior that men enjoy doing, without caring how the women will react.So true. It's the same as the urge to contact a woman during a next. You kid yourself that it's for her; that she might want to hear from you. Nope, it's a screaming need in you to do something. It's all for you. Giving a gift makes you feel better. You have no idea what she wants or thinks.
Complimenting a woman’s appearance, at any phase, is very dangerous and can create betaization much faster if your frame isn’t 100% Alpha and the woman involved isn’t someone you’ve known for a very long time.Also completely true. It's the same as telling a rich person, "Wow, you have lots of money". There is no compliment there. Think of, "You look good in that dress" as opposed to, "That dress looks good on you". A woman wants an alpha. True. At the start. Then biology will take over and her nesting instincts will begin the betaization process. It's not her, it's biology. So, the more you do avoid looking like a nest builder, the happier you will be. Sounds backwards but it's true. 🙂
CurtsNOKC 2016-11-17 18:06:38
After living with an OLTR for a lil while now I'd have to say another way to classify if something is a "Boyfriend behavior" is if she asks you to do ANYTHING. Even if she were to ask me nicely, I usually ask her whats in it for me or negotiate something in return lol. I do it in a nice way kinda. But if you don't put your foot down she will be asking u to do all kinds of chores and yet if you where to expect anything in return you be called all kinds of names. There is a clear double standard and feminism today too so we as men can't even hint that the house looks dirty but the other day she asked me if I could help sweep. So, i said, "hmmm. Does this mean I can also ask you to sweep sometime w no drama?". She decided to sweep herself lol. Another good one was when I was asked to make my delicious pancakes for breakfast. So, I asked, "If I make them can you make that awesome Turkey Chili you've been talking about for months?". Basically, everything has to be a trade off or they will learn to grow to hate you for giving into their requests. I have slowly trained my current OLTR to kinda expect this now, which is nice. But you gotta be careful w this and make sure you don't tie anything sexual or romantic into this strategy or your doomed in my opinion.
Gil Galad 2016-11-17 18:27:41
Frankly I don't find my comments hard to understand, and both Parade and BD more or less got it. All I did was show that BD's analogy with taxes is invalid when romance is a primary and not a secondary goal. I do have brevity issues but I think the argument was clear. Anyway, I understand that what I'm looking for involves drama. I'll just have to find a middle ground.
Joe K 2016-11-17 18:46:54
the craziest part of this whole conversation is the reactionary aversion to doing the exact actions/behaviors that chicks say they want from a guy they're newly dating. girls always say they want to be treated like a queen - and what i was saying was that if a guy *wants* to treat a new random girl like a queen - hell, have at it up until the point where she starts throwing negative drama at you. And even that- an explicit demonstration of womens' overt desires - was roundly rejected/criticized by very intelligent men in this thread.... Think about what the implications of that are, for a moment...if you disagree with my POV that a guy should feel free to treat a girl that way *if it pleases him* - well, you are essentially saying that the only 'right' thing to do is the opposite of what women explicitly say they want. Really mull that over for a bit.
Parade 2016-11-17 19:20:22
well, you are essentially saying that the only ‘right’ thing to do is the opposite of what women explicitly say they want.No, it depends what your goals are. If you want long lasting drama free relationships, then yes. The only right thing to do is to NOT be romantic until she's shown herself to be someone who can handle it. If you don't care about drama or even want it, or don't care about having to dump a chick every 6 months because she got too attached, then have at it.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2016-11-17 19:40:45
Yeah, pretty spot on with the list. The only thing I'd change is that behaviors 8-10 are all acceptable in a SD arrangement, not just 10, and MAYBE 7 if it's her birthday, easter or christmas (definitely not valentines day) and then only if you two already have a very good understanding of the relationship. Otherwise I think that list is perfect.
Blackdragon 2016-11-17 22:02:35
the craziest part of this whole conversation is the reactionary aversion to doing the exact actions/behaviors that chicks say they want from a guy they’re newly dating. girls always say they want to be treated like a queen – and what i was saying was that if a guy *wants* to treat a new random girl like a queen – hell, have at it up until the point where she starts throwing negative drama at you. And even that- an explicit demonstration of womens’ overt desires – was roundly rejected/criticized by very intelligent men in this thread….I didn't reject it. I just said that such a behavior will result in drama and/or vastly shorted relationships. And I said if you don't mind that kind of thing, then go for it. To each his own, as I've said several times in this thread. It's exactly the same as when over-33 women come here demanding many treat-me-like-a-lady dates from a man before they ever have sex. Fine, go for it Sweetie, but that will simply result in you getting a submissive, clingy, and boring beta that you'll get bored with very quickly. If you want that, great, go for it. I don't make judgements about these things; I simply state the likely negative results of people's actions. Do whatever you want.
you are essentially saying that the only ‘right’ thing to do is the opposite of what women explicitly say they want.It's not the "only right thing to do," but in most scenarios and with most women, doing the opposite of what women say they want is the best way to create and maintain attraction. Read this.
SuperSlavisWife 2016-11-17 22:29:33
When does this NRE wear off again? And when does the drama start?
Blackdragon 2016-11-17 22:57:23
When does this NRE wear off again?That depends almost entirely on the what the man does and does not do during the first few months of the relationship. NRE typically lasts anywhere from 2-10 months, though it can be artificially extended a little by doing various things like having a baby together or moving in together, as I describe in detail here.
And when does the drama start?That depends on a host of factors. What the man does or does not do in the relationship, how old the woman is, the type of woman (dominant, submissive, or independent), the type type of relationship (mono, open, poly, causal, serious, etc), and a billion other things. The typical monogamous beta can get drama almost immediately. I usually don't get any for many months, sometimes years, and sometimes never.
JB 2016-11-17 23:39:30
But what about the five love languages? My current high-end MLTR has the same list as me, which is something like: 1. Physical Touch 2. Words of affirmation 3. Quality time 4. Acts of service 5. Gifts And she compliments me, especially on my appearance, often. At some point, it just seriously started to feel weird to at least not return the compliments when given. This doesn't mean I'm smothering her with compliments or anything of the sort; It means that I simply return the compliment when prompted. WhenI didn't compliment her back, (And she is, in fact, an incredibly beautiful blonde), it started to feel like she invested way too much in me compared to the other way around, and it seemed as if I didn't share her priorities among the five love languages. Is (honestly) returning compliments (about appearance) really that bad? @JudoJohn
I pitched a date to a cute bi chick on Sunday, and we agreed on last night. It was after about 4 exchanges of messages, mostly about eating cows. I left her entirely alone until yesterday, and she wanted to get together but there was just a lot of stuff going on for her, so she canceled.First, good call on the low exchange of messages. I exclusively open to women (On the "crush" based dating apps such as Tinder og Happn) with something similar to "Hey, wanna go grab a cup of coffee sometime?", because that's all you need. Often, girls have later told me that they actually mainly said yes because of the bold way of asking out right away. However, since we invest very little pre-meet, flakes happen a lot. This is because 1) The investment was small already and 2) girls are horrible at planning anything and 3) Girls are way more nervous than you think and 4) She might be dating another guy who she's pair-bonding with. Only thing you can do is laugh, move on and play the numbers. And hey, you didn't really invest anything, so even if she fucks up, you didn't lose. Best to keep your Outcome Indepence (Like you did by 1) not getting pissed and 2) keeping the mindset that if she flakes again, you will no longer invest time in the meet, but she's free to come along if she figures out her schedule.). It might lead her back to you at some point - It certainly did to me.
hey hey 2016-11-18 01:01:31
What about the Alphas 1.0? Don't they also engange in such behaviors with a woman? Don't they feel the need to make her their own and are clingy with very boyfriendish behaviors? What is the difference with betas here?
JB 2016-11-18 02:07:20
@hey hey Alpha 1.0 boyfriendish behaviour consists of jealousy and controlling behaviour. While the Alpha 1.0 does not kiss her ass, he will set up rules for her and treat her as his property; Gets angry when she talks about other guys or past lovers, forbids her to see other guys, demands to see her phone, know her plans all the time and so on. (The betas don't dare to put up these rules, but will secretly want them anyway). While some girls may love this (in the beginning), the frame is forever destroyed and your chances of having a non-monogamous relationship are close to dead. In true, outcome independent Alpha 2.0 manner, you really have to not give a shit about whoever she is seeing, even if she is not seeing other people. This means that whether she indicates that she is seeing other guys (which can be true or a test) or she indicates that she is not seeing other Guys (can also be true or a test), you "ignore" both statements as if they are the same - because you simply don't care. If you have a reaction to either, you take hits in attraction and damage your frame. Rewarding her for not seeing other guys will make her assume that you don't see other girls either - and drama is just around the corner.
hey hey 2016-11-18 02:28:56
I don't think the above two are the only traits that 1.0s have when they exhibit boyfriendish behavior, but they are the difference with betas. A 1.0 would kiss her ass with dates and "gentleman" behavior. You think an Alpha 1.0 want do something special for her in crap situations like V-Day? I believe the difference is that an Alpha is more "protective" in his behavior towards her and that includes control and jealousy. And since he is outcome dependent and wants to show the world how masculine he is (or "gentleman") he will follow social standards to please her. But my question asks an answer about the betaization. Boyfriendish behavior leads to betaization or is this behavior beta? Because if we consider it as beta, then a lot of 1.0s are becoming beta with certain chicks in early stages.
SuperSlavisWife 2016-11-18 04:39:47
Nah, if the butterflies have to wear off they take a lot longer than a few months. Just under six years, at my count. Your NRE lumps all adoration and devotion in with neophilia, which is false equivalence. Neophilia might bring on adoration, but adoration can and does persist without neophilia if the benefits persist also. Then again, too few people actually go into relationships with goals in mind, so they end up committing emotionally to someone who is unsuitable in lifestyle terms. It didn't use to be much of an issue, as people would become emotionally attached to others who shared their exact culture, values and goals. Think of the tribes with no enforced relationship structure at all where most of the women and many of the men still adhere to lifelong monogamy. But now it's harder to isolate people who genuinely resemble ourselves and too many people are willing to commit to someone because they like the same band. Hence why people have hundreds of "friends" and yet nobody to help them with a last minute move. Once the neophilia of meeting someone who vaguely shares some small aspect of your self wears off, they get dull, regardless of whether they are male, female, friend, relative, whatever. They are kept around for emotional reasons, but ultimately the whole social circle has no true bond. Partners are no exception.
Joe K 2016-11-18 05:30:26
@BlackDragon Hah! 2nd time you've linked me to that post. And so I read it a 3rd time. IMO - like other top RP-writers (with probably the exception of Roissy/Heartiste) - you are going out of your way to give the best possible benefit-of-the-doubt to women. Specifically, by stating that "they really mean it when they say X or Y in the moment...". There's almost this undercurrent of "hey guys - listen up, if we can't manufacture a neutral-to-slightly rose colored spin on why women act the way they do, then life is going to be so fucking pointless as to not even be worth it. So let's all agree that there's a somewhat beneficent way of rationally explaining women's behavior". Because the reality is that you can also choose to see it as unbridled, shameless narcissism and willfully-invoked extreme Macchiavellianism. "Oh, but I've talked to countless women. I know they don't mean to be constantly deceptive." Do you? Do you really know that? What makes you so damn sure? @HeyHey @JB My experience with trying to implement the "Alpha 1.0 possessive schema" late in the relationship was somewhat the reverse of what you describe, and equally unworkable (and was never worth trying, TBH) - here's how it went...I was moving forward in every aspect of life - really living my life and achieving big goals...the only thing I was sacrificing was that lust to sleep with other women. I never kept tabs on her and never mate-guarded whatsoever - in my mind, I was being faithful, she had sworn up and down that she had always been faithful in relationships and didn't have it in her to ever cheat, no matter what - and I believed her. After an incident occurred which shattered this illusion, but did not in my mind constitute a significant-enough infraction to end a multi-year relationship, I started mate-guarding, asking questions, etc...and this escalated up til the point that my questions were being answered with blatant, calculated lies. *That* was what caused me to end it - the continued dishonesty and the growing belief that her behavior had long been worse than I'd assumed. So that's kind of a devolution, ~Alpha 2.0 to 1.0, and that did not fucking work out in the least, either.
POB 2016-11-18 06:22:18
Guys who still don't grasp the strong message of BD's posts should really read this: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/index.php?threads/chick-logic-and-the-myth-of-the-unique-snowflake.111604/ I'll quote the best parts:
What is "Chick-Logic"? Chick-Logic is a misnomer, really, in the sense that it's really reverse-logic. The inherent principle behind chick-logic is this: Women do not think logically. They make decisions based on feelings and emotions. Chick-Logic is logic after the fact. Women make decisions and take actions based on what they're feeling...then, after the fact, they construct a logic-pattern which fits the way they felt or acted. The Problem with Men The problem with us as men is that we keep trying to UNDERSTAND women. We keep looking at chick-logic and making an assumption that it is the SOURCE of women's behavior, rather than a CONSEQUENCE of it. It just doesn't make sense, and we sit there wondering, "What is she THINKING??" Of course we've heard of chick-logic, but because of the one fairy-tale we can't shake out of our heads: that fairy-tale that each woman is a beautiful, unique snowflake with a wide variety of personalities and driving influences, we keep expecting every woman we meet, especially the ones who happen to catch our fancy, to be different.We keep trying to appeal to them in terms of logical value. We say to ourselves, "I'm smart, I'm funny, I'm attractive, I'm considerate...why would any woman NOT want to date me?" If chick-logic makes an appearance in the object of our affection, we disregard it and assume that it's just interference that can be worked out. What we're doing is trying to work AGAINST the woman's feminine nature. Beneath the chick-logic, there's this emotional ebb and flow that most men completely DISREGARD as an unfortunate side-effect. This is NOT a side-effect...this emotional rollercoaster is the ESSENCE of the female psyche and the SOURCE of chick-logic. You can change the way a woman thinks a thousand times over, but she will ALWAYS reconstruct what you put in place to fit with her emotions. Unless you can affect how she FEELS, you will continue to fail. (...) This is why you cannot "lock a woman down", be it by marriage, social convention, or whatever...because such a contract is only as good as the honor system it's based on...and if a Don Juan can change how she FEELS, she will build chick-logic which bends or makes exceptions to that honor system.(...)And the follow up comment by the original poster who summarizes some misconceptions that could come up:
Bear in mind I'm not passing judgment here. I'm not being misogynistic and saying all women are somehow EVIL for being the way they are. It's just an entirely different way they operate.You could make the same argument about men. We have our OWN operating principles that women "just don't get". They probably can't conceptualize how we can act with such a cold, logical outlook on life without empathizing with every damn thing.We're all different expressions of a theme, but the theme is the SAME. All women operate the same. From the ones that I had so much in common with it was like we would finish each others' sentences to the ones that I couldn't even stand to be in the same room with, looking back, all of them operated the same way when it came to social and romantic themes.This isn't necessarily a BAD thing...if you can learn to use it to your advantage, you can find new ways of expressing yourself and achieve perspectives which you didn't even know existed.A quick example to illustrate those points: - giving an expensive gift or dinner for no reason (to a man using logic): she will like me more, which means I will increase my chances of locking her down for good and have more long-term romance and free sex; - receiving an expensive gift or dinner for no reason (to a woman using chick-logic): he likes me a lot and wants me badly, so I'm comfortable enough to start doing whatever I want depending on my mood (like refuse sex, throw him drama and make more demands). Why? Because it's crystal clear he won't leave me; Side note: remember, they don't think about that stuff in a logical sense. They'll just behave like that over time depending on their emotions. It's simply how they operate. The only thing that changes from one woman to the other is the speed and intensity of this process once it's started. Nothing more. So what's our best bet? To do as BD says: delay and postpone it as long as you can.
hey hey 2016-11-18 07:38:56
Joe K i think that's beta behavior from the get go. An alpha 1.0 would have been controlling all the way until betaization.
JudoJohn 2016-11-18 09:56:05
SuperSlavisWife has super comments.
too few people actually go into relationships with goals in mind,You're damn right about that. My goal is to Love Women While Staying Free. I'm tight with my last LTR. Her goal is to find a husband to have children with. It's kind of fun comparing notes considering our varied strategies. I think that many men know they are not ready to commit & settle down, but they don't know how to articulate it and execute plans to allow them to have a great time without leaving emotional wreckage behind them. That's the value to me of systems like Blackdragons. Absent such a system, it's easy to go into a relationship with vague notions of not going to far in mind but not owning it because what if what if what if and the male hamsters away and ends up married. Happened to me.
Joe K 2016-11-18 10:52:38
@Hey Hey The only non-Alpha 2.0 thing about my lifestyle that entire time was my monogamous commitment. My frame was that I'm the prize, I have higher value than her regardless of how hot she is/was, and my lifestyle was 100x better - she could come along whenever she wasn't hindered by her stupid career. I don't have a career (I personally think they're all worthless, except maybe for farmers) because I'm independently wealthy, travel for fun all the time, name any other component of a Alpha 2.0 lifestyle - that's me. And I increased my 'Alpha 2.0-ness' significantly during the course of that relationship with my achievements, expanding my knowledge base, doing whatever the fuck I want etc - but all that 'progress' in my own life didn't keep her completely faithful several years into the LTR. So my 'mistake' was assuming the best, being 'too carefree' about her behavior...until shit got thrown in my face, then I started asking questions and devolving into Alpha 1.0 possessive mate-guarding bullshit. MMSL-style mate-guarding (I cite MMSL - because that's Alpha 1.0 behaviors carried out to extreme levels of oversight and investigation) is just not worth it. Athol recommends that stuff primarily to keep marriages together where there are young kids involved and family unity is at stake. He generally recommends men without kids not even fight that battle. Good guy, by the way. By the way - I did have an end goal in mind in that LTR - which was to have a location-independent family who traveled the world...with kids who (we all) would spend the rest of the time either at my 'tropical paradise home' or at both sets of grandparents' homes, while she would basically home-school the kids up until they were high-school age or so. For that 'goal' or 'dream' or whatever the fuck it was to be torn apart when I learned I couldn't trust her - very, very painful.
Blackdragon 2016-11-18 11:16:55
But what about the five love languages?All five of them are perfectly fine for MLTRs as long as you don't go overboard.
Is (honestly) returning compliments (about appearance) really that bad?If you do it a lot, yes. If you do it sparingly, no.
What about the Alphas 1.0? Don’t they also engange in such behaviors with a woman? Don’t they feel the need to make her their own and are clingy with very boyfriendish behaviors?Often, yes.
What is the difference with betas here?When it comes to boyfriend behaviors, betas are needy, Alpha 1.0s are possessive. Many of the behaviors, on paper, look the same, but there's a difference in frame. The "I need you don't leave me" frame of the beta is quite different than the "You belong to me, if you talk to any other man I'll smash this chair against the wall and then and kill you" frame of the Alpha 1.0. Both are extremely outcome dependent, drama prone, and externally focused, but the frame is radically different.
Nah, if the butterflies have to wear off they take a lot longer than a few months. Just under six years, at my count.I'm not talking about butterflies. I'm talking about NRE. I didn't say you aren't happy with your current husband or that you don't adore him. I'm sure you do. I'm saying that euphoric rush you first had with your husband during the first few months of dating is no longer there (or if it's there, it's far less than it was). I have no idea how long "butterflies" or "adoration" lasts, but NRE doesn't last six years, sorry.
Your NRE lumps all adoration and devotion in with neophilia, which is false equivalenceNot only is that incorrect, but that's not what NRE is at all. I believe you've tried attack the concept of NRE before, using incorrect definitions for the term as the basis for your arguments. If the concept of NRE bothers you that much, let's just agree to disagree. If you constantly twist my definitions for these terms we can't have a meaningful conversation.
Then again, too few people actually go into relationships with goals in mind, so they end up committing emotionally to someone who is unsuitable in lifestyle terms.Correct.
Hah! 2nd time you’ve linked me to that post. And so I read it a 3rd time.Then maybe you should take it to heart instead of basing all of your relationship and dating opinions around what women tell you.
There’s almost this undercurrent of “hey guys – listen up, if we can’t manufacture a neutral-to-slightly rose colored spin on why women act the way they do, then life is going to be so fucking pointless as to not even be worth it. So let’s all agree that there’s a somewhat beneficent way of rationally explaining women’s behavior”.That is not my opinion. Of course there are numerous biological, societal, and evolutionary reasons for why women say they want one thing but get turned on by another (as just one example).
“Oh, but I’ve talked to countless women. I know they don’t mean to be constantly deceptive.” Do you? Do you really know that? What makes you so damn sure?I've never said that, and I have no idea what your point is here. You're saying all women are deceptive? Then why do you put so much stock in what they say they want? You're making no sense.
Faloop 2016-11-18 12:09:39
So BD Lets assume I am new to the whole relationships thing. And I want to be happy. And I wanna have kids in 10 more years (from now). When I hit 35. I didnt get a women in my whole life. So I even have the privilege to *choose* what kind of relationship I would like for myself. Whether it would be beta/boyfriendish or a cool alpha one with women. So which book of yours can give me the knowledge of being high value man. Or the knowledge of rock solid EFA? Regardless of where I stand financially/socially. I really want to start enjoying my life.
joelsuf 2016-11-18 13:20:59
3. Seeing her more than once a week.My gf does this. She'll go to my job unannounced and it doesn't really bother me or get in the way of what I have to do at my job. She's also told me that if I am too busy or something we don't have to spend time so its more or less in my court. She works 6 days a week and has a kid so my job is pretty much the only place we can hang out (and have sex too lol). I wonder if BD sees this as a boyfriend behavior. I mean I don't go out of my way to do any of this and I don't do any of the other boyfriend behaviors. I feel like a lot of those boyfriend behaviors, if they weren't in the context of boyfriend-girlfriend, could just as soon be stalker behaviors. Why are dudes so socially programmed to put TONS of pressure chicks they like? And even stranger, why do chicks say that they aren't good boyfriends when they DON'T do them?
Joe K 2016-11-18 19:30:55
"You’re saying all women are deceptive? Then why do you put so much stock in what they say they want?" Question 1: YES. Question 2: I'm being facetious to some extent. What I'm really suggesting is more along the lines of this - "might as well teach these bitches, one by one, how stupid and evil they are by giving them exactly what they say they want, then watching them implode on a tidal wave of drama, then ghosting them and letting them figure out what the hell went wrong as you move on, because there's always another girl. Always". There's a reason why Christina Perri's 'Jar of Hearts' song was so popular 5 years ago - it's essentially a rhetorical exercise in turning around what women's default behaviors are around beta boyfriends and assorted male orbiters, and projecting that onto a man. So my point is - why not be that man, provided that you're consistent and truthful in word and deed with her. You're acting ethically, doing exactly what you say you'll do, not breaking any promises, not lying to her, and it still implodes because she's fundamentally defective and fucked up beyond repair on the inside. That's my point.
SuperSlavisWife 2016-11-18 22:15:08
@Judo: Even men who want to commit go about it completely the wrong way. They find someone they would be happy with for a week and try and eke it out over years. I'm starting to think that the biggest issue with women's relationship strategy is that lack of forward thinking combines worse with long-term goals than it does with short-term ones. But women by and large want long-term or lifelong relationships, so it's more likely to backfire. When a man also pursues such relationships he ends up in the same sort of situations, SMV-adjusted. It's easier to get it right if you're just chasing feelings for a while anyway. @BD: I couldn't say anything has changed from the start of the relationship. Still at that same point where I would happily throw myself under a moving vehicle for him from six years ago. Still the only person I avoid arguments with and whose emotions can make me feel anything. Still the only person I can be around for much over a day and not want a break from. Still get giddy when he touches me. It hasn't faded at all from the point where I fell for him.
AL 2016-11-18 23:41:14
A quick example to illustrate those points: – giving an expensive gift or dinner for no reason (to a man using logic): she will like me more, which means I will increase my chances of locking her down for good and have more long-term romance and free sex; – receiving an expensive gift or dinner for no reason (to a woman using chick-logic): he likes me a lot and wants me badly, so I’m comfortable enough to start doing whatever I want depending on my mood (like refuse sex, throw him drama and make more demands). Why? Because it’s crystal clear he won’t leave me;This is very true. So true. I wonder, is it possible that there is not even any conscious thought taking place here?
PinkFirefly 2016-11-19 02:08:58
BD: "Complimenting a woman’s appearance, at any phase, is very dangerous and can create betaization much faster if your frame isn’t 100% Alpha and the woman involved isn’t someone you’ve known for a very long time." Is (honestly) returning compliments (about appearance) really that bad?A woman's perspective: I understand not complimenting FB's or MLTR's, but for OLTR's I think compliments are very important. A woman wants a man to notice when she spent time to look pretty. A lot of men think women pay attention to fashion, buy expensive shoes and spend time getting ready so that other women will notice. Yes, this is true, but, at the same time, she actually cares more about dressing pretty for you, her guy. She needs you to notice and not just notice in your head but notice by telling her, out-loud and often. In that same vein, a woman wants a man to compliment her and compliment her often. Women by nature are a little insecure about their looks especially when they are living in a big city where people place a lot of emphasis on beauty. Even if you are seeing a truly beautiful OLTR who gets hit on by men all the time, she needs to hear out-loud from you that you notice her and admire her. And chose words like "sexy" or "beautiful" or "amazing"; women like words like this because they are bigger and make it seem like you really are thinking they look incredible at that particular moment. My suggestion is to stay away from compliments like "you look nice" or you look fine." I would also stay away from "you look cute," she is not a puppy, she is a woman. Just a thought for all of the guys out there who are looking for an OLTR or currently have one.
SuperSlavisWife 2016-11-19 04:28:19
@Pink: Jon's favourite compliment to use is "alright". "Food's alright." "You look alright." "That was alright." Knowing how rarely he gives compliments and that he'll take any opportunity for constructive criticism is what makes the difference. If a guy regularly gushes praise then his compliment means nothing, especially not the big words. The more elaborate the compliment from a softie, the less sincere. But if he is hard to please and doesn't like putting his happiness into words, then even "you're cute" or "you're alright" feels like the world. And when you have to put in some effort to get a "beautiful" or a "you did a great job", then it's far more meaningful than if you're "beautiful and great just as you are". So yes, we want to hear such words and know he means them. But if they're unearned what do they even mean?
hey hey 2016-11-19 04:54:31
SSW: Many women say the same thing "He is the only man I love and avoid arguments etc etc, we have sex regularly etc etc." And when you corner the husband he complaints about the rare sex, the arguments etc. Sometimes men will avoid discussing this. Women outright lie, as in their mind, arguments only mean punching or throwing dishes. I'm not saying you are lying, but I'm sure you are overstretching the reality. When a divorce happens then all these things change to the opposite (we rarely had sex, we were arguing all day, he was boring etc etc) again overstretching the reality.
JudoJohn 2016-11-19 09:09:49
But women by and large want long-term or lifelong relationships, so it’s more likely to backfire. When a man also pursues such relationships he ends up in the same sort of situations, SMV-adjusted. It’s easier to get it right if you’re just chasing feelings for a while anyway.So much to unpack. I mean, this blog is part of the manosphere, and one thing that is known here is that women also by and large end those long term or "lifelong" relationships. I have been run utterly into the ground chasing feelings. Seems like a bad idea to me.
PinkFirefly 2016-11-19 10:47:38
SlavisWife: To say a compliment has to be earned is completely ridiculous. A compliment is something a man says when he feels or thinks his partner looks beautiful or amazing. So if your guy thinks you happen to look gorgeous we he sees you, he wouldn't be able to tell her that because she didn't earn it? That's terrible. A compliment is supposed to be a spontaneous reaction, not something to be held back or not said because it wasn't earned.
Blackdragon 2016-11-19 11:02:25
So BD Lets assume I am new to the whole relationships thing. And I want to be happy. And I wanna have kids in 10 more years (from now). When I hit 35. I didnt get a women in my whole life.If you're a virgin, you need to completely forget about relationships and put them out of your mind for the time being, and focus 100% on losing your virginity and getting good at getting laid. Once you're at the point where you can reasonably bring new women into your sex life whenever you want, then you can sit down and determine what kinds of relationships you'd like to have.
So which book of yours can give me the knowledge of being high value man.My main book, The Unchained Man. It was written for all men who want a better life. And lucky for you, it's the cheapest book I have.
My gf does this. She’ll go to my job unannounced and it doesn’t really bother me or get in the way of what I have to do at my job.Yes, that is a boyfriend behavior and should end immediately, unless she's your OLTR and she knows you're fucking other women, or you're her monogamous boyfriend, in which case I can't help you because I don't advise men in monogamous relationships.
What I’m really suggesting is more along the lines of this – “might as well teach these bitches, one by one, how stupid and evil they are by giving them exactly what they say they want, then watching them implode on a tidal wave of drama, then ghosting them and letting them figure out what the hell went wrong as you move on, because there’s always another girl. Always”.That's an extremely negative view of the world and I'm glad I don't share it.
I couldn’t say anything has changed from the start of the relationship. Still at that same point where I would happily throw myself under a moving vehicle for him from six years ago. Still the only person I avoid arguments with and whose emotions can make me feel anything. Still the only person I can be around for much over a day and not want a break from.None of that is NRE.
Still get giddy when he touches me.As Hey Hey already said, you're stretching the truth on this one. I would bet $10,000 of my own cash you don't get "giddy" every time your husband of six years touches you. I know that if I put a few beers into him and put him in an isolated room far away from you, and asked him some of these questions, we'd get very different answers. That doesn't mean you don't have a good marriage. I'm sure you do. I'm saying you both left NRE a long time ago. I know you'll deny this, which is fine.
K 2016-11-19 11:24:29
This is very true. So true. I wonder, is it possible that there is not even any conscious thought taking place here?AL, I'll tell you what consciously runs through my head in such situations. 2 possible scenarios: i) I don't know the man well enough: I refuse to go to an expensive venue for dinner, perceiving it as a pressure to become obligated to sex if he pays. I've never received an expensive gift prior to sex but if that happened, I assume I'd do my best not to accept or return it. In any situation, I will have sex because I feel a connection, not because someone picked up the bill. ii) I'm in a relationship with the man, having sex as often as possible (I've yet to meet a man whose sex drive is higher than mine): Dinner - my interpretation: He wants to enjoy an expensive dinner, I would otherwise not be able to afford, with me, therefore he pays. I would never request that a man takes me to dinner and I don't silently expect to be "treated" . I admit I'd find it strange, however, if we lived together and he'd regularly treat himself to expensive dinners, leaving me at home. I would certainly want to talk about that. Expensive gift - uh oh, now I have to think twice as hard about what to give him for his birthday/Christmas/no apparent reason whatsoever... My primary love language is physical contact, guess it could be a factor here.
CurtsNOKC 2016-11-19 12:18:14
Another way to think about this is to frame relationships as biz partnerships vs off of love. If she wants something from me, than I'm gonna want something in return. What's good for her, is good for me. I tell them this in the very beginning several times. I also let them know that it's extremely stupid for me to be Exclusive by asking them how many of those prior BF did SHE break off? (It's funny watching their face on this question) For example - My GF teased me about threesomes for a long time cuz she knew I loved them. She did them before and is also Bi. She loves back door play too (me too). Many times more than me. She decided to give me drama about doing threesomes one night and said it was cuz she felt "pressured" and that it's mostly for me. So, I told her: "ok so why don't we make a deal and until there is a threesome, I don't do anal on you since I feel "pressure" to do it sometimes?" (Negotiate here like it's a biz partnership. Be very biz like and look at both sides exactly the same! ) So, the same night I proposed this trade off, she was DYING to have anal sex w me lmao. I didn't give in (it was hard) and she couldn't believe it. She said I was first guy ever to turn her down for this and that I was "perplexing" to her and drive her crazy. The next day she is trying to setup a threesome and we had one week later. I just wanna say thank you so much BD and the main guys on here for all their advice the last couple of years. It has helped me so much gain confidence in life in general. My son, who is 19, just had a bad breakup w his first major GF and punched a hole in his BR wall. So I finally set down w him and introduced him to Black Dragon. You can tell he just looks happier and free. Like he has super powers! Gotta love it....
Lovergirl 2016-11-19 15:50:15
Most of this makes sense but I will never understand the not complimenting her part. There is no way I would want to continue having sex with a man that didn't compliment me and make me feel beautiful. Thankfully the men in my life seem to have that basic inherent knowledge of how to make a woman feel good.
Blackdragon 2016-11-19 16:13:11
Most of this makes sense but I will never understand the not complimenting her part. There is no way I would want to continue having sex with a man that didn’t compliment me and make me feel beautiful.I never said "no compliments."
BlindIo 2016-11-19 21:56:14
I really wonder how well you would do in a K culture.
Chip 2016-11-20 06:49:30
Do you think the process of betaization / drama / giving compliments on her appearance etc. would be any different to a lower status / fatter / more loser girl? Just an interesting thought that i would love your view on. Also, have you ever considering soft-nexting this comment section? There is a lot of drama here 🙂
Joe K 2016-11-20 07:35:04
@Blackdragon Do you at least realize that the only difference between your view of the world and the "extremely negative" view of the world I'm considering (if not fully embracing...yet) - is simply your choice to place a neutral-to-benevolent framework around women's dark triad behaviors? It's almost like y'all are suggesting that women aren't human people with fundamental agency, choice, the capacity for self-discipline, the capacity of will to be loyal, the wherewithal to keep their word, etc. Or maybe they have all these capabilities / access to these character traits, they just don't fucking care. That's where nature meets nurture/culture/feminism, and I realize how ugly that is to even consider.
Anon. 2016-11-20 09:50:54
Joe, given that those two worldviews result in completely identical decisions, it's purely a matter of taste. I, for one, prefer to live in a world of cute girly women rather than evil scheming women.
Blackdragon 2016-11-20 11:59:23
Do you think the process of betaization / drama / giving compliments on her appearance etc. would be any different to a lower status / fatter / more loser girl?No. I've seen lots of betas with overweight or homely girlfriends who slather these women with "oh my god baby you're so beautiful baby" comments constantly, daily, and these women treat these guys like the betas they are (i.e., like disposable servants).
Also, have you ever considering soft-nexting this comment section? There is a lot of drama hereI don't respond to drama comments, just comments that make specific points on-topic to the article.
Do you at least realize that the only difference between your view of the world and the “extremely negative” view of the world I’m considering (if not fully embracing…yet) – is simply your choice to place a neutral-to-benevolent framework around women’s dark triad behaviors?I've enumerated my opinion on that topic already. Read this.
Joe K 2016-11-20 19:04:05
@BD - you do realize that I have the most recent comment on that post, yes? You did not cheat in your 9 year marriage. I have never cheated in an LTR. So are we just morally superior to everyone else, then? What's the deal? Women cheat, and they get a pass from virtually everyone in their immediate surroundings - they were 'confused' or 'insecure' or 'depressed' or 'unsure of something' - they are immediately forgiven and they know they'll be forgiven, hence why they do their worst. When men cheat, they are actually, in fact, called 'evil' by virtually everyone in the exact same woman's social circle. Your conflation of male infidelity and female infidelity, when measured against the real-world detrimental consequences of each (or lack thereof), really misses the mark. How can you not acknowledge this? How is it not 'evil' or at least 'bullshit' that in our society - women can do their worst to men and get away with it scot-free, when the inverse (men cheating on women - which again, neither you or I have ever done...interesting...) is met with universal condemnation?
Blackdragon 2016-11-20 19:18:32
you do realize that I have the most recent comment on that post, yes?No. There are tens of thousands of comments on this blog and I don't keep track of them all in my head.
You did not cheat in your 9 year marriage. I have never cheated in an LTR. So are we just morally superior to everyone else, then? What’s the deal? Women cheat, and they get a pass from virtually everyone in their immediate surroundings – they were ‘confused’ or ‘insecure’ or ‘depressed’ or ‘unsure of something’ – they are immediately forgiven and they know they’ll be forgiven, hence why they do their worst. When men cheat, they are actually, in fact, called ‘evil’ by virtually everyone in the exact same woman’s social circle.Now you're changing the subject. You're correct and I agree; there is a double standard by society for women's behaviors in relationships vs. men's.
Your conflation of male infidelity and female infidelity, when measured against the real-world detrimental consequences of each (or lack thereof), really misses the mark.I have never said that men and women face identical consequences by society when they cheat. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I've stated the opposite on more than one occasion.
How is it not ‘evil’ or at least ‘bullshit’ that in our society – women can do their worst to men and get away with it scot-free, when the inverse (men cheating on women – which again, neither you or I have ever done…interesting…) is met with universal condemnation?That is evil, I agree. But above you were saying women were evil. That's where I completely disagree. Anyway, we're getting way off topic here, and you keep changing the subject. As I said, I already addressed this issue quite a while ago, so I'm not commenting here any more about it.
Gil Galad 2016-11-21 06:24:53
@Joe K: I don't think it's very useful to insist on determining whether women are "evil". Evolution put higher pressure on men than women when it comes to true/false propositions (because that was super-important in hunting), which is why "male" morality finds lying, delusion and dishonesty very dislikable things. Women mostly had to gather (as opposite to hunt) and socialize their way out of problems, where brute force was useless because they were the weaker ones; they'd still consider lying immoral, but less so. And there's always overlap, as we all know. I think moral judgements need to be dialed back when the issue is one where the sexes evolved to have a different response (not to a complete relativism where no one is accountable, but you get the idea), and what example more obvious that sex and relationships ? Biologically, sex is basically A exploiting B to make a copy of his genes, and reciprocally, so of course there's gonna be a conflict of interests and "moral" standards. We can either whine about it or enjoy the benefits and intelligently manage the drawbacks.
SuperSlavisWife 2016-11-21 07:20:57
I could refer to the fact that literally everyone I know who knows him, even people he thought I would never meet, are fascinated by our relationship and openly jealous of us both, but anything I say would be lost. I suppose if you can't inspire that sort of devotion in another human, you wouldn't comprehend it and cannot accept it. Which is, as you say, "fine". It's like someone who needs a high income saying you can't live on £6k a year including rent. But then to pretend you are Alpha, rather than a Beta playing the system, is pretty dishonest. Alphas are for life, not for a weekend, and however few I have met, all have people equally as attached to them, male and female alike. I'll take that $10,000 whenever you're ready to pay it, though. Hook me up for a brain activity scan if you're that doubtful. Any contribution towards the deposit we're building for a house is welcome.
Joe K 2016-11-21 09:58:21
@SSW "But then to pretend you are Alpha, rather than a Beta playing the system, is pretty dishonest. Alphas are for life..." I say the same thing to older married guys who are 'absolutely certain' that their wives have never cheated on them - you don't know that. Cynical though I am, I believe your husband's a great guy. That's not to say he wouldn't love nothing more than to have sex with random women on the side if it were somehow allowable. In fact - he might want that more than literally anything else, because he 'can't' have it. As I've written over the past several months, I came out of an LTR which I was pretty damn sure was going to be 'for life'. The LTR originated during a time of high sexual abundance for me those several years ago - and this girl was the hottest girl I'd ever known, came from an intact family, seemed to have the utmost of integrity, seemed 'unable' to be dishonest, etc...the point that my illusions were shattered (I *was* faithful - always. She was not.) is beside the point - instead, my point is this: even with ALL those things I believed she had going for her, I still wanted to fuck other women more than almost anything. I could achieve, and was achieving, all my other goals in life - but that was the one forbidden fruit. Your husband may well feel likewise. Now if you take someone like BD or myself - why the hell would we ever try the 'exclusivity for life' thing ever again? I mean - at this point, what difference does it make? There is no plausible scenario where I could ever again see believing that 'gee, monogamy's tough and painful...but maybe *this time* it'll be this wonderful, positive experience'. About 10 years too late for that mere possibility, I'm afraid. The fact that I go about getting/taking what I want in life, apart from monogamy, going forward - by definition runs contrary to the term 'beta'. It may be 'playing the system' as you say, but I'm (at least - still am for now...post-LTR many men are now telling me I'm a sucker for resolutely...) acting honestly and ethically, doing what I want on my terms.
Blackdragon 2016-11-21 10:37:39
I could refer to the fact that literally everyone I know who knows him, even people he thought I would never meet, are fascinated by our relationship and openly jealous of us bothAgain you're confusing a good marriage with NRE. Not the same thing. My parents have had a good marriage for a very long time, and people are jealous of them too, but they're not in NRE.
I’ll take that $10,000 whenever you’re ready to pay it, though. Hook me up for a brain activity scan if you’re that doubtful.If there was a way to confirm it from where I live, trust me, I'd be there in a heartbeat, baby.
Alphas are for life, not for a weekendLook at that Disney go! I agree that Alphas are more than a weekend, but virtually no one under the age of 60, man or woman, beta or Alpha, is "for life" in a 100% sexually monogamous fashion, since that's not how we were designed. As I've told you before, just give it a few more years...you'll find out...just like every other female marriage blogger who has defended monogamy to me. That includes Lovergirl, Real Sex Daily, and many others.
CurtsNOKC 2016-11-21 11:57:09
this reminds me of when current GF told me that she tends to NOT want to do something if I put too much pressure on her or tell her she cannot do something or needs to do something. It made her want to go slower or opposite of what I wanted or in her mind "demanded" lol. So, one day she asked me when we are discussing if we should be exclusive or not, "Curtis, would you prefer that I not talk to exs or that we can?" (gotta love the wording huh lol) I simply brought up the prior convo about how she admitted she is gonna want to do whatever I tell her she can't do! So, I told her to talk away and that this stuff is just private. Drove her crazy of course and you gotta love how adorable women are when they start trying to be logical lol. Gosh I love them so much... All she could think about was my ex Kim sexting me. Not that she was just given total freedom lol. I wasn't done just yet. -I asked her how many of the guys she still keeps in contact with was she non-exclusive with and she said maybe 2 or 3. One of which she still has feelings for. -then I asked her how many of the exs that she was Exclusive with that she still keeps in contact with? She said ZERO! Red flag already. -what % of your relationships were Exclusive I asked? 80% she said! (do the math lol) -and who did the breaking up of these exclusive relationships mostly? She said she did usually! So, why in the world would I wanna be exclusive with you then I asked? About this time she had realized what I had just done and was very frustrated with this question based system that basically helped her answer herself in regards to if I wanted to be exclusive with her lol. ( I am still seeing her to this day so going on 8 months)
donnie demarco 2016-11-21 16:18:21
Most of this makes sense but I will never understand the not complimenting her part. There is no way I would want to continue having sex with a man that didn’t compliment me and make me feel beautiful. Thankfully the men in my life seem to have that basic inherent knowledge of how to make a woman feel good.If you were a man having sex with multiple hot women per week without ever complimenting them, you would understand. There are plenty of ways to make a woman feel good without literally complimenting her appearance. In fact, the alternatives are usually BETTER.
I could refer to the fact that literally everyone I know who knows him, even people he thought I would never meet, are fascinated by our relationship and openly jealous of us both, but anything I say would be lost. I suppose if you can’t inspire that sort of devotion in another human, you wouldn’t comprehend it and cannot accept it.I can relate to the chemistry you have with your husband, as I've been there myself (once). Perfect chemistry match, near-zero effort to maintain trust and attraction, and a ridiculous sex life; 1-3x per day was typical, even past the five year mark (I'm NOT exaggerating). Our love was infectious; random strangers would approach us on the street just to ask us how we met and how long we've been together. Chefs would (unprompted) prepare special desserts or drinks for us at restaurants, telling us that they've "never seen a couple so in love before". Even now, TWENTY YEARS after I first started dating her, I can still call her up and convince her to come over. Our chemistry is literally invincible. But you know what? None of that changes my perspective on Alpha 2.0. It all still applies. Whenever I lean beta or 1.0, her attraction erodes. When I lean 2.0, her attraction builds. There are no magical, special people out there who transcend human biology. You're lucky to have found your husband, because that kind of thing really is rare, but you're both still human... And that doesn't say anything less about you or your relationship.
CurtsNOKC 2016-11-21 16:34:28
@donnie demarco In regards to the compliments about a ladies appearance, I wouldn't have agreed w this a year ago but after testing it out it is true! I am constantly telling them what I like about them or how cool they are cuz of their brains, creativity, or personality etc. I'm not lying either. I just be honest and focus on what I like other than looks and poor it on when she says something intelligent or makes a great meal etc. I acted totally shocked and flabbergasted lol. You can tell it makes them feel special. Now, instead of saying she looks gorgeous, I instead will ask her to send me a picture or Sext. But the other day, a GF decorated her bedroom really cool w mirrors etc and it looked awesome. I kept pooring it on about how creative she is and she just loved it. Couple nights later she said an ex bf was texting her and it bothers her how he keeps telling her how beautiful she is but never talks about her other qualities like I did! Think about it! How many other Alpha men actually praise chics for their unique gifts and talents? Not many. This makes us stand way out and be different. Plus, it makes me feel good when their faces light up too! Many times, it creates a battle to see who can compliment (versus nag) the other person the most too! A Win win. Now she feels like she needs to find my GOOD qualities too, which has a subconscious effect....
superslaviswife 2016-11-22 11:31:00
@Joe. I'm kind of lucky with Jon. He's already admitted that a random woman with the right looks might turn his head, and we're happy to share porn, but even after a few minutes of a girl flirting with him you can see him start to attack her. As long as he's getting sex from me, he finds more value in tormenting other young women. On holiday I spied a few local girls and tourists hitting on him and could already see him getting ready to emotionally hurt them, pretending to miss their cues, insulting them, etc. He directly calls them whores if they try and escalate. Crying and/or trying to hit him is the valued result. He does the same when lesser males try and cozy up to him or make him their leader. Tease, ignore, demean, etc. And yet they still go back to him asking for help and support and approval. They even bring him gifts to make him like them more. He's not a conventionally nice person, but neither am I so there's no issue there for me. :p The only issue is I know I have to meet every one of his standards, however high or arbitrary, or I am not right for him. And that the meanness extends to me when I fail him. Nobody gets a pass. He's happy for me to get old and ugly one day, for instance, as it's biologically inevitable, would be great for creeping people and by then he fully expects to have no sex drive left. But if I get even slightly too fat I'd be chained to the gym until I look "not repulsive" again. I guess even abrasive Alphas/Sigmas make others want to please them, because I'd live in that gym to look right for him. @BD. Your "few more years" just keep growing. And they will continue to do so. I couldn't be happy without him. Re "for life": Alphas don't stop being Alpha, is my point. And that means that other than the most distant acquaintances they retain the followers the acquire. Jon still has a woman claiming her baby is his from years ago. She refuses his offer of a paternity test and doesn't want money, just his attention. Not the only example. I think over a decade has passed and she still craves him. From the perspective of males, our more extroverted Alpha friend has a follower, M, whose wife has shut down all M's social media and banned him from going out because he still wants to essentially be extroverted Alpha's slave. Again, not the only example. Alpha widows exist for a reason. "Betaization" is just the unraveling of a false identity. Actual Alphas may change and transform, may withdraw and refuse to lead even as followers beg them to take charge, may become weaker or lose their position as they near the end of their lives, but they don't spontaneously become Betas in the peak of their lives.
Blackdragon 2016-11-22 11:40:51
“Betaization” is just the unraveling of a false identity.I hope you men are reading her viewpoints very carefully. She's giving you a fantastic education on how women think.
hey hey 2016-11-22 12:42:57
@SSW So by your definition "Alphas are for life" what is Arnold, Mike Tyson etc? Are they beta? Pretentious Alphas? And by your definition of betaization are men who do not let you breath, throw orders at you, but go out and fuck other women, betas? And they showed their true colors later on? Let me tell you what will show Jon's true colors. Let him know that tomorrow you are living and you are handing him a divorce. Let's see how he reacts. Maybe then you will come to the realization.
hey hey 2016-11-22 13:10:39
My mistake, didn't read your last post properly about "Alphas are for life". But no not all Alphas are for life Alphas. Years into the marriage many of them lose the control and they give it to them woman. If not all, most of it. This is where the woman senses this and starts getting bored of him. I know a lot of Alphas who were fucking badasses before getting married. And now you look at them and pity them. And this, I believe is mostly because of SP, not the woman.
Straight Rider 2016-11-22 17:05:30
He’s already admitted that a random woman with the right looks might turn his headYou're either stretching the truth like BD said or you really are still somehow in NRE, I can't think why else you would believe that statement. A random woman with the right looks WILL turn his head not might, maybe he won't act on it but trying to play you like he will not even glance at a hot chick cause his superslavis is all he needs, please. Your dude looks at other women, we all do, and thoughts cross his mind, he should be able to admit this to you and you should be able to handle that.
but even after a few minutes of a girl flirting with him you can see him start to attack her. As long as he’s getting sex from me, he finds more value in tormenting other young women. On holiday I spied a few local girls and tourists hitting on him and could already see him getting ready to emotionally hurt them, pretending to miss their cues, insulting them, etc. He directly calls them whores if they try and escalate.So you are happy with this, you believe this is the behavior of a truly confident alpha male? Deliberately trying to hurt peoples feelings or being a jerk because they are hitting on you does not make you alpha, perhaps you need to unravel his identity 🙂 A confident dude or alpha male that does not have internal issues and is used to women hitting on him should by now know how to handle such advances properly. Hopefully you don't find yourself on the receiving end of this behavior in the future.
CurtsNOKC 2016-11-22 17:38:34
Ok guys one of the things I am always doing is testing this philosophy out and will mix and match ideas on different chics to see what works and does not. Idk maybe I enjoy the scientific side of it and it fascinating to some degree. I tend to see myself as a Hybrid Alpha 2.0 but come across as a Alpha 1 w a dash of beta just because I'm so laid back and goofy. Plus, Cancers enjoy intimacy too so I gotta keep this in check continually. But at my core I am very independent and a Libertarian in all as aspects of life. I'm always mixing the Alpha and Beta just for fun and to get a good laugh too. One area I struggle with is how to do the holidays. Can you guys come up w any creative ways that I could take a chic to meet family during the holidays without her considering it a typical boyfriend behavior? Or without it being a big deal? Frankly, I feel us men make way to big of a deal about this. If the zombie apocalypse was occurring, would we have any of these chics with us around family? :)) I just wish I could break the jinx and theory that just because a man introduces a chic to his mother, that means "it's serious" mindset. Thanks for any ideas in advance guys/gals!
Faloop 2016-11-23 08:34:09
If you’re a virgin, you need to completely forget about relationships and put them out of your mind for the time being, and focus 100% on losing your virginity and getting good at getting laid. Once you’re at the point where you can reasonably bring new women into your sex life whenever you want, then you can sit down and determine what kinds of relationships you’d like to have.Do you mean by going to a prostitute? How many times? what to tell her? what should I experience with her so I would know that I am getting good at sex so I can talk about sex in the first date? thx
JudoJohn 2016-11-23 09:38:09
“Betaization” is just the unraveling of a false identity.I hope you men are reading her viewpoints very carefully. She’s giving you a fantastic education on how women think.
JudoJohn 2016-11-23 09:45:14
I couldn’t be happy without him.Yes, you could. And as you well know, you're on a blog written by a man for men, so I'll tell you what: That idea that you just described? You know what I call that? Emotionally abusive. Straight up emotionally abusive. I don't think you are emotionally abusive. You seem to have a great marriage, and that's awesome. Just understand that contained in that statement is a vicious tool which has ripped out the hearts of countless men.
CurtsNOKC 2016-11-23 10:32:44
When I hear the phrase "I am just very picky" from chics I just wanna puk! You see this a lot in the online dating world. I am convinced that most women under 30 are looking for something that does not exist due to the hollywood brainwashing of Beta movies/music and men in tight jeans etc. When ladies say they are very very busy soccer mom, very very picky, very very slow and my all time favorite.....THEY KNOW WHAT THEY WANT, you better run as fast as you can the other direction or your in for some serious drama and controlling. It's as if they all go to some online dating crash course to learn the same logic and copy each other. But why in hell do women think a man would be attracted to a profile that warns us just how picky they are? Yeah that sounds like a load of fun....sign me up lol. Anyways, so one day I was thinking if the majority of these chics online are damaged goods anyways and/or anti-social, why not change up my marketing to attract it. After all, what they SAY doesn't matter it is what they do that does. So, what I did was revise my profile one day to say how busy I was, how picky I was, how special I was, how my kids, friends, job and everything comes first and that I am looking for something that does not exist. If you are out there somewhere, please contact me otherwise I am just too busy. I got blasted with women interested. Sometimes I feel like a hybrid of Jerry Seinfield and Rodney Dangerfield when it comes to online dating. It used to anger me how most women in America (western countries) are so missed up and confused but now that I have knowledge of it and accepted it, it can provide me with a great laugh and is now stress relieving actually (I love comedy). Cuz I know that no matter what, 80% of the guys will keep trying to make them happy, which puts me in the "different group" and drives them nuts. And they will never be 1 guy that makes them "happy" so... But from this batch, I found some really amazing women that I have some of the most fun with still to this day and really care for them! Gotta run cuz my daughter (11) is listening to the song by shawn mendes "treat you better" over and over and I am gonna puk again. The brainwashing starts so young guys!
JudoJohn 2016-11-23 11:08:07
Hell of a story, Curts! I thought about setting up a strong Provider profile for shits and giggles, but I won't.
When ladies say they are very very busy soccer mom, very very picky, very very slow and my all time favorite…..THEY KNOW WHAT THEY WANT, you better run as fast as you can the other direction or your in for some serious drama and controlling.I have a plan for that, at least after I run out of younger women (I live in a city of 2.5 million so hopefully that takes a while). I think I could pull off a good looking loser vibe with the over 33's (I'm 44). I look great on first glance, I have a great career, am extroverted and friendly (with effort), handsome and in shape, so I am very presentable.....but I don't have kids, I don't want kids, I have no retirement, I have $70K in student debt, I've been divorced twice......I'm about as useful to picky women as the 25 year old jacked losers. It would take some effort to develop strategies but I bet it's doable. My Mission is being able to fucking retire lol I'm not going to lose resources to another man's spawn, never.
SuperSlavisWife 2016-11-23 13:39:05
@BD: If you eventually "become Beta" in the eyes of everyone around you, then you ARE Beta. If men and women alike get tired of you or can't interact with you daily without you becoming soft or them becoming annoyed or confused, then you don't have enough intrinsic Alpha traits to carry through into daily life. You get tired of putting the work in and slip up because you really aren't all that dominant. To relax you need to surrender power. A few people may become disillusioned with Alphas, but consistently falling short of the social rank is a pretty good case for a false front. No question about it. @hey: He'd laugh. He'd be hurt and offended, but he'd laugh. I have more to lose than him. What I have done for him is irreversible. What he does for me is ongoing. And the few Alphas I've met have all sustained authority in all relationships. It's intrinsic to who they are, so they never become uncomfortable or stressed by it. Some men feign it for a while, but they feel uncomfortable and want to become comfortable. Very few men are actually independent from or above the social hierarchy. These men seem more uncomfortable giving any power away than they are enforcing their authority. @SR: Jon's not a social person. Might be hard for extroverts or full empaths to understand, but he doesn't want to be liked, he doesn't want to talk and he doesn't want affection, other than maybe four or five people. He's largely self-sufficient and resents the fact that others want his advice, respect and support. He can get all he wants from himself and, failing that, from his small, carefully crafted social circle. He doesn't notice most people at all and gets annoyed when they move into his space or start selling themselves to him. They want him to be their tribal leader and guide their affairs. He wants to be the witch doctor in the outskirts of the village who people pay homage to and leave alone. So if they won't leave him alone, he will entertain himself with them. And they're more than happy to bring him gifts despite how he treats them, so he's winning there. @JJ: I wasn't happy before him and I'm not happy without him. Humans are in principle social animals, but other people can't meet the need. They bore me or annoy me into cutting them off for good, or they tire me so I need long breaks from seeing them. He's lovely to look at, fun to talk to and I don't get sick of his mannerisms, conversation or touch. I'd rather live completely alone than with anyone but him. And I essentially have done so before. But with him is far better than alone. He agrees with me on that one. Mutual hermitting is a nice thing.
CurtsNOKC 2016-11-23 14:05:59
@JudoJohn Frankly, I do not discuss my marriage goals/views until I have known them for at least 3 months. Then I make it seem like they gotta be VERY special for me to ever think about doing something so crazy lol. Same with kids - I let them know I can't due to surgery. If they have lil ones I try to stay away or tell them I prefer to not be around them for a while or until it got more serious. Besides, why in hell are 33+ age women still wanting to have kids anyways? Screw that! I am 41 and my kids are 19 and 11 and boy am I glad as hell. I was even strategic enough after my first (and only) divorce 2.5 years ago to arrange it so they both live with my ex wife now full-time so my main chic and I have lots of free time to ourselves lol. My ex was able to find one of these Beta/Alpha 1.0 fire fighter guys (w a great retirement package lol) that worships the ground she walks on to move in with her and play daddy and he is now pissed off at me lmbo. Paybacks a bitch. He too thinks his job is to be her provider and put her up on a pedestal. If he marries her, it will be his 3rd marriage. Have fun with that dude. Poor moron! I told him last month, keep it up and my grand kids will be living in yalls house in 5-10 years too =)) But, why do women need to know how much you do or don't have in retirement? Even IF I decided to ever marry again (I won't) it would be kept top secret, placed in an Annuity, and then an Estate, and finally hidden in a nuclear bunker in Costa Rica far away from any woman. The more secret you are about your finances, the more she may ASSUME you have $ and want you lol. I would almost consider using this to your advantage somehow, especially if you have a good career. I am seeing one lady currently for over 6 months and she has never asked me about my retirement and if she did, I would just grin and say "oh wouldn't you like to know?". If they are flat out asking you how much you got in your retirement, then I would accidentally drop a fake ATM receipt in front of them that shows a balance of $348,091 =)) Whatever you did have saved up would have been $ you earned before you met her so it's none of her biz. Again, the more secretive you are about it, the more they may assume you have lots tucked away, which can't hurt your dating game lol. Student Debt - again not really their business unless your married maybe. Not sure it would be even then. If you are in a place like L.A. and many gold diggers around, as long as you give the allusion of SUCCESS and that your happy (not so much wealth) and keep your finances top secret, you would probably drive them nuts lol. Just remove the marriage and money talk (or make it vague) from your dating game and see what happens! Good luck! PS - one time I had this gold digger chic over my house so decided to have some fun w/ her. So, I logged into my merchant account for my small biz and changed the Report date of gross revenues to show last 3 years. It then displayed huge text on the screen of something like $637,000+. When she asked me what I do for a living, I grabbed the laptop to show her and accidentally show her this page. I act all embarrassed and say "opps". We were in the bed 10 mins later. But one can type something like this in a Word Document with a Chart and print it off and have it laying around. If they are gonna use $ to determine your worth, then why not have some fun with it. It's not lying and even if they ask, it is a topic that I would just not answer, which then gets them assuming again lol.
donnie demarco 2016-11-23 15:42:02
I hope you men are reading her viewpoints very carefully. She’s giving you a fantastic education on how women think.Most of the female comments here can be summarized as one of the two following statements: 1. "I'm different from other girls, and this stuff doesn't apply to me" 2. "The guy I currently like is different from you guys, and I like him sooo much"
donnie demarco 2016-11-23 15:49:29
So, what I did was revise my profile one day to say how busy I was, how picky I was, how special I was, how my kids, friends, job and everything comes first and that I am looking for something that does not exist. If you are out there somewhere, please contact me otherwise I am just too busy.Ha, reminds me of this scene from IT Crowd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZATzlLT3LQ
Blackdragon 2016-11-23 17:30:30
Most of the female comments here can be summarized as one of the two following statements: 1. “I’m different from other girls, and this stuff doesn’t apply to me” 2. “The guy I currently like is different from you guys, and I like him sooo much”When men defend long-term monogamy: "Oh no, that won't happen. You don't understand Blackdragon, I've fucked a lot of girls. I understand women and I have strong game. I know what I'm doing. It'll be fine." When women defend long-term monogamy: "Oh no, that won't happen. I'm REALLY in love with this guy! More than I ever loved any other guy! It's going to work!"
CurtsNOKC 2016-11-23 18:45:05
@donnie demarco The IT crowd video is right on! As a matter of fact, I met my my current main chic online back in the spring and I had nicknamed her "Ms uptight" within just a few minutes of our first messages and I tease her about it to this day. She couldn't believe that I had the balls to tell her this so quickly and was brave enough to f*ck w her. I always give them silly and fun nicknames to help me remember who they are and to get in their heads and mess w/ them so it kills 2 birds w one stone 🙂
superslaviswife 2016-11-24 02:18:01
@BD: You're a broken record. :p You seem unable to actually hold a discussion on the key points (your concept of NRE is simple and purely based in neophilia, human social rank is stable outside of childhood and/or extreme degradation, most people can only emulate power and prefer a boot on their neck to being given authority, Alpha roles are societal and not just based on women], instead skipping them, ignoring them and focusing on the personal points, as emotionally soft people are wont to do. When your predictions fail you, you just use denial and crystal-ball "the future" arguments against my personal case, and deflect and ignore the overarching realities of human society which do not agree with you. It's funny to read, but if you can't address the core gaps in your own brand, then just admit it. Your lack of actual debate is pretty boring. If you were more honest about your own role in society then there would be a point to debating you. But debating a character is pretty useless.
Gil Galad 2016-11-24 03:52:51
@Superslaviswife: not to argue one way or another, but you're being unfair on at least one point: BD has stated in the past that he's not using the term "alpha" in the quasi-zoological sense where the focus is on status among men *and* success with women: he's using the pua, women-focused sense - and a flavor specific to this blog at that (and we ALL know examples of men who are genuinely super dominant with other men and complete pussies with their girl). He's not wrong on his own terms, and frankly you've been redefining way too much at your own advantage (this and the concept of NRE). Plus, he's admitted waaay earlier that there are always outliers and that you could be one, so yeah, your exchange with him is not very useful. I've seen my fair share of debaters not even aware that it's their disconnected definitions that are dragging the exchange along, and it's ugly and wasteful. Maybe BD assumes too much about you, and maybe not; but the point is that he doesn't exclude possible outliers, but speaks to the bulk of the population; you can see from the get-go how this makes an outlier-versus-BD discussion kind of moot.
hey hey 2016-11-24 03:59:18
@SSW: Nobody believes you about the NRE. There is no way you could convince anyone that the way you act/feel between you is the same way as you acted/felt the first 6 months of your relationship. You are just BSing us and you know it. Do you fuck like rabbits? Do you feel the ecstasy of the relation like you did in the first 6 months? I highly doubt it. What you have is a good bonding and understanding, not NRE. NRE is a far higher emotion. We have all been to both situations and we know the difference. Seems you still don't understand the difference. You talk about your single situation and you embed that to a general idea and speak about it like it can work in general. Then you ask for other people to avoid speaking about your personal situation. But it is you who makes it personal. Also Alpha roles are societal you are correct. But there is no way an Alpha will accept monogamy. A beta can suck it up because he doesn't have the power, but an Alpha cannot suck it up(unless he becomes complacent therefore betaized). An Alpha will cheat on you in the blink of an eye the moment he feels the urge. If as you say your guy plays around with hot girls but only teases them, you immediately exposed his true nature. He is a beta. An Alpha WILL fuck those girls behind your back. And the only reason he does it behind your back is because he cares about what people will say and that he will lose the control of the relationship. Do you have an idea how many ex couples who defended their relationship have been married for more than 15 years then all of a sudden got a divorce? In my circle alone I have 10 of those. It's been getting ridiculous hearing the "We've been married for 10 years...". So what? In fact in my opinion the longer you are in a monogamous relation the worse for you. You are clutching at straws just to keep your marriage forever, a fantasy. If it happens then congrats, I still highly doubt it was a happy thing and you both wasted your life for not getting your personal maximum happiness out of your life. What is better? Feel relationship ecstasy with 10 people in your life or with just one person? In any case, Alphas will shoot themselves (or get betaized) in a long relationship in which they can't fuck other pussy. This premise alone will give you an indication of your man.
Blackdragon 2016-11-24 21:48:19
You seem unable to actually hold a discussion on the key pointsProjection.
your concept of NRE is simple and purely based in neophiliaCorrect.
human social rank is stable outside of childhood and/or extreme degradationI wasn't discussing this.
most people can only emulate power and prefer a boot on their neck to being given authorityI wasn't discussing this, but I generally agree.
Alpha roles are societalCorrect
and not just based on womenNot based on women, but based on a man's behaviors with women. If you say to a man "Don't fuck any other women except me for the rest of your life!" and he says, "Yes, master," then he's not Alpha unless he cheats on you a little later. The issue is not you or "women." The issue is his behavior set.
superslaviswife 2016-11-26 22:20:46
@hh: I'd have responded to that around... four years ago. Since then and enough arguments with "just for health" vegans, I can already see the same pattern of "my truth, need more evidence, denial, confusion, ignore new stats, you're an exception, denial" emerging and can't be bothered. To read that comment after what for me is an ordinary day in an ordinary year, and over half a decade of experiences which, from your comment, you can't even envisage, makes me laugh a little though. Grapes so sour they make no wine, only vinegar. @BD: If your sociosexual concept of Alpha is based wholly on whether or not he has sex with the women who are attracted to him, rather than whether or not they are attracted to him, then there's a flaw there. Gay, asexual, or incredibly self-focused men can be Alpha. Betas can get sex with women, albeit not loyalty or peace and quiet. If your only stable criterion for Alpha is "has sex with multiple women", then that's fine, but you may as well rebrand as "man of any sexual or social rank who has sex with multiple women". Alpha is far too meaningful a term and significant a role to pigeonhole it like that. And the fact you are not discussing the roles and durability of human social ranks is exactly the problem. By your logic, men who do nothing at all but become a bit more charming for the first 6 hours of conversation "become" Alpha. By your logic, men who choose to go Monk Mode "become" Beta. By mine, they are still whatever they were on the dichotomous scale or maybe a little up or a little down on the AGP expanded scale. Sexual rank and social rank reflect on each other strongly. But even independently they don't change. In a healthy human society like the ones we evolved in, you would see every one of your sexual partners daily and have done so since early childhood. They would know all your friends and business partners. Even today, women look for cues that you have suitable rank among men before becoming interested. Social rank and sexual rank are inextricable. And although on a more nuanced scale people move around a little, on a dichotomous one, they cannot. Once you physically and mentally mature, until the point both those aspects start to rot away, you are either a have or a have not. You ascribe to the Alpha-Beta dichotomy, which is fair enough as not everyone cares too much about *why* a Gamma and an Omega are different, but you have also redefined it, tried to put yourself outside it and seem to deny that you have done either. And if you wanted to address the actual key points, you'd have looked into those simpler human tribes I mentioned ages ago, or Dalrock or Free Northerner's marriage stats, which are far more thorough without being rose-tinted. But that's just not convenient enough. I try and drop a mention of them whenever I land here, but it's never the bit you pick up on. And however fun it is to note which points you address and which you do not from my not-unintentionally varied comments, it's getting a bit stale. I don't expect you to go through any of this any time soon, though.
Blackdragon 2016-11-26 23:03:57
If your sociosexual concept of Alpha is based wholly on whether or not he has sex with the women who are attracted to him, rather than whether or not they are attracted to him, then there’s a flaw there.That is not my definition of Alpha. We were discussing NRE, and now you're veering off into this odd discussion of the definition of Alpha which has nothing whatsoever to do with NRE. The fact you keep trying to change the subject like this should tell you something.
Dalrock or Free Northerner’s marriage statsI don't know who Free Northerner is, but I link to Dalrock's blog in the sidebar and think he's a great guy. Anyone here can click that right now and go read what he has to say.
Josh 2016-11-28 04:15:47
She’s probably already spent the night with a guy who was not her boyfriend, and she’s most definitely received a free dinner at a restaurant from a man who was not her boyfriend. Therefore, it’s okay do to these things with a MLTR I've met a few girls who had never been on a date before, or who were at least virgins when we met. Does this change the list of accepable romantic yet non "boyfriend" behaviours at all?
Blackdragon 2016-11-28 14:38:06
I’ve met a few girls who had never been on a date before, or who were at least virgins when we met. Does this change the list of accepable romantic yet non “boyfriend” behaviours at all?No.
donnie demarco 2016-11-29 17:19:21
Do you fuck like rabbits? Do you feel the ecstasy of the relation like you did in the first 6 months? I highly doubt it. What you have is a good bonding and understanding, not NRE.Exactly. While it's possible to "fuck like rabbits" after six months, that is NOT NRE. It's just a good (and rare) compatibility match.
On holiday I spied a few local girls and tourists hitting on him and could already see him getting ready to emotionally hurt them, pretending to miss their cues, insulting them, etc. He directly calls them whores if they try and escalate.Hilarious. This is beta/omega behavior, not alpha.
E.S. 2016-12-18 20:31:08
Hey man, Can you proofread these examples? For example, mltr romantic stuff thats appropriate would include going to local bars where there may be music etc. However, boyfriendy would be a setting where everyone is coupled up, or its a specific social circle scene and you guys are there "together" amongst close friends, is not etc. And what about a big concert with 75$ ticket? My guess is that's boyfriendy...If not at least pushing it.
Blackdragon 2016-12-19 11:12:16
Can you proofread these examples? For example, mltr romantic stuff thats appropriate would include going to local bars where there may be music etc.I don't understand the question.
And what about a big concert with 75$ ticket? My guess is that’s boyfriendy…If not at least pushing it.That would be pushing it. Make her buy some of the food when you go.
E.S. 2016-12-19 14:41:50
cool thanks. I was just trying to differentiate hanging out with a mltr out at different settings in different bar settings (with friends/social circle vs. not etc), and the boyfriendyness off each. etc sorry about the confusion. thanks
Kyle 2017-06-07 14:04:09
Hi BD. I have this situation with every woman I see. Like you, I don't find social life to be an important area of my life, so I don't go out at all. I have no problem living like this, except that it embarrasses, when FBs/MLTRs ask me what I was doing at Friday/Saturday night. It is not always a question coming from a mood of control, but it may be asked in the context of making chit-chat as well. So how am I supposed to respond to this question, without lying or coming across as a loner, anti-social psychopath? Should I ditch it with a line such as "I had invited some strippers to my place" to laugh it off? Or be genuine and admit that I never go out?
Anon 2017-06-07 16:20:23
There's quite a number of highly satisfactory answers. Working on your business. Meditating. Motorcycle maintenance. Whatever. If the true answer sounds embarrassing, such as idling all day, that's likely because it is and it should be changed; otherwise just answer truthfully, you aren't under any obligation to go out X times each month.
LiftLikeArnold 2018-05-10 06:51:26
@BD Technical questions: Spending two nights in a row with a high end MLTR will get me in trouble? I'm not planning on keep doing it every week with her, but maybe once every one or two months What do you do when a girl drops a L-Bomb during sex? I had a couple MLTRs drop the "im in love with you" in the middle of pounding and I never know what to do. Usually I just put something in their mouth to make them shoosh. Should I keep at it or am I making some mistake in my frame that causes it to happen?
speter33 2019-06-15 15:01:16
How often should I be texting? I decided to see each of my FBs 1x/week and text them only a day before to confirm the appointment. But I'm worried I can loose a FB by being so hands off. What is the right amount of texting if they're not initiating a text?