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When Women Leave You Then Return – Several Real-Life LSNFTE Case Studies
My worst acronym ever, the LSNFTE, or Long Soft Next For Temporary Exclusivity, is a reality of life that you need to become comfortable with as a nonmonogamous man. Stated simply, the LSFNTE is when false Societal Programming finally gets the better of a FB or MLTR (or in rare cases, an OLTR) you’re seeing. Because of this, she gets disappointed with you after a few months or several years of having sex with you, either for not boyfriending her up (in the case of FBs) or not committing to sexual monogamy (in the case of MLTRs).
-By Caleb Jones
The good news is that A) long-term sexual monogamy doesn’t work, and B) betas are extremely boring to women, usually to the point of being irritating to them. So eventually, once the NRE dies down with her new beta boyfriend or husband, she’ll do what women do, and dump/divorce his ass (or in some cases, cheat on him) and swing right back to you to resume your happy sexual relationship. This can take several weeks to several years depending on your frame during the relationship, your nonmonogamous relationship skills, the woman, her age, and the particular scenario.
As I’ve discussed before, my personal return rate for LSFNTEs is 94%. 94% of FBs, MLTRs, and even OLTRs who leave me eventually return. The remaining 6% is mostly represented by women who moved far away or other odd scenarios. This is the same rate that you can expect if you do everything right in terms of managing your nonmonogamous relationships correctly.
Once you get to the point of knowing that there’s a 94% chance a woman leaving you will be back to ride your cock someday soon, it will take most of the unhappiness and all the surprise away from the process. You just smile, let her go, go radio silent on her, have sex with your other women, and wait until you have sex with her again. As usual, the Alpha Male 2.0 lifestyle is the best lifestyle today’s modern man can live (in my admittedly biased opinion of course).
Today, I’ll give you several real-life examples of when this has happened to me. I combed through my older spreadsheets and came up with the ones that I feel can teach you the most. To show that his process works equally with women of all ages, I’ll provide a range of different age groups, from women age 18 to over 33. I’ll also use examples from all three relationship types: FB, MLTR, and OLTR. I have changed the names of the women, but these examples are all 100% accurate and truthful within the limits of my admittedly sometimes imperfect memory.
Case Study 1: Jessie
Jessie was one of the first VYW I ever dated. She was a very cute, extremely confident and extroverted 18 year-old who was a low-end MLTR. About five months into the relationship, she started pressuring me for monogamy even though she was fucking at least two other guys on the side. (Ah, 18 year-olds.)
Of course I said no, though gently. She keep pushing me regardless, and started hinting strongly that it would be a “great idea” if she moved in with me. I kept blowing off this request, and we kept on dating while she was bringing me many of her cute, young girlfriends to play with. It was a wild and fun time.
About two months after that, I saw on MySpace (yes, it was back then) that she changed her relationship status to “Married.” I sent her a MySpace message and asked her about it. She basically said, “Yep. I am.” She had married one of her FBs; needy younger guy whom she told me was gay. (I knew it was a lie as soon as she said it.) He had just joined the military and quickly needed a wife so he could double his paycheck before he went off to Iraq. He told her he loved her and she could live in his place, rent free, while he was gone. Of course she agreed. I shrugged and let her go. I was somewhat new at all of this back then, and didn’t know I’d have a 94% return rate yet, but I had a feeling she’d be back.
There was no contact between us for about seven months. After that, we texted. I don’t remember who texted who first, but I think I texted her. I figured seven months was plenty of time to wait, and it was. Her stupid marriage had crumbled (of course). She was still legally married to him because she wanted to keep her military health coverage, but they were separated.
Two months after that we were having sex, while she was pregnant with her “husband’s” baby. We only had sex a few times, and then she tried to reconcile with her “husband.” I smiled and let her go again. We kept in touch, but only very sporadically. I made sure to keep the contact as infrequent as possible (every 3-4 months or so at the most) and just long enough to get an idea of her relationship status. About a year after we had sex, her marriage had crumbled again, and she had a new boyfriend, but it was clear she wasn’t very committed to him. We started having sex again, and this time it was reasonably consistent for about a year. When we resumed, I made sure to downgrade her to FB because of her chaotic life and constant lying, but for a year we had a lot of fun.
Today, she’s 26 years old, has become semi-famous, and has been on national TV several times. To this day we still hook up occasionally- as recently as last year.
Case Study 2: Jen
Jen was my first OLTR(ish) relationship many years ago. (I didn't have OLTR as a term back then, but she was as close as a woman could come to that.) She was a hot, short blonde, just the way I like ‘em. She was 31 when we started seeing each other but 32 when we started getting serious. She was extremely smart, quick-witted, fiercely independent (the good and accurate definition of the word, not the female definition) and we were very sexually compatible.
We were very much in love and had a great, albeit short initial relationship. We never got to The Talk but it was pretty clear that she knew what I wanted and didn’t want. (Again, this was many years ago before my system was perfected.)
One day, while rapidly approaching the Female Age of Doom (age 33), completely out of the blue, she stopped responding to my texts. No argument, no lecture, and no warning. One day everything was great, and the next day she was gone. (Sound familiar? Women do this all the time.)
I was confused. Like most Societally Programmed men, I wanted a specific reason or answer to why she did this. However, by then I understood women and knew that I would probably never get one, and that perhaps she didn’t even know why she did it with 100% clarity. (I later found out she had acquired a new FB and started seeing him after leaving me, though they were never serious.)
I was a little bummed for a day or two but I just shrugged it off, kept on having sex with my FBs. I went back to the dating sites to get 1-2 new MLTRS, which I had within about a month. Life went on and things were good, as they always are.
About a year and half later, I checked her Facebook profile, confirmed there was no boyfriend or “In A Relationship” status that I could see, and sent her a Facebook message. She responded, but was a little cold. I got her to text me, and we conversed over text a little. I knew that from her colder attitude and her new over-33 status that just inviting her over to my house would not work.
So instead, I broke one of my rules and invited her to lunch. I knew she had no boyfriend, so my plan was to sexually escalate there. She agreed to go, and there was no sexual escalation other than some really tight hugs (a mistake and failure on my part).
She agreed, and during lunch I was sexual as hell. Sex talk, squeezing her legs, the works. Walking out of the cheap Mexican restaurant (I made sure to keep the “date” very cheap and casual, and she paid for her half), I grabbed her and we made out. After we were done, she frowned at me (ah, over 33 women) but didn’t say anything negative.
Walking back to our cars, I told her to come over to my place. Her over-33 ASD bubbled up within her, saying that she didn’t want to because she didn’t want to get “groped.” I smiled and persisted. She said no two more times. I shrugged, kissed her again, hard, smiled, told her to have a nice day, and left.
Just three hours later, she sent me a text saying that she had to admit that I “tasted good.” I told her to come over. She was hesitant. She said she didn’t want to be a FB (ah, over 33 women.) I told her that she could never be a FB because of our history together, and it was the truth.
One hour after that, we were having sex on one of my blankets on my living room floor. We had sex off and on for three hours.
Three days later, we did it again. This time, four hours.
This continued for about three months, until one day she stopped responding to my texts again. Ah, so this was her pattern. This time I was cool with it. I knew she’d be back.
Several times over the next several years Jen would come back to me every once in a while for a few months of hyper-intensive sex, and then just vanish again. It was great every time, though I knew she could never be an OLTR with that level of inconsistency. MLTR, sure. OLTR, never. Good times though. She’s now almost 40 and we’re still distant friends. (I have an OLTR now, a real one, so I don't see Jen anymore.)
Case Study 3: Marlee
This is a more recent example from the last few years. Marlee was 24 years old and someone many of you would consider to be a 10. She was a slightly smaller and skinner version of Kim Kardashian, but with an even prettier face. She was a FB from the very start, because I knew that she had a lot of drama in her life. Regardless, we got along very well and had a natural chemistry from the very first date.
Initially we only saw each other very sporadically, much like most of my FBs, which was once every 5-6 weeks or so. Over time, we started seeing each other very regularly, like once a week (keeping to the once a week rule at all times, of course; because keeping to the rules increases the odds of LSNFTEs returning to you).
One day she suddenly stopped responding to my texts. Just like with Jen, there was no argument and no warning. I popped over to her Facebook page. Like many of my women over the last few years, I hadn’t added her to my friends list, so she could keep plausible deniability with any other men she dated. However, per my system, I bookmarked her page and also communicated over Facebook at least once so if she ever lost/replaced her phone and/or lost my number, she would have a way of contacting me. Facebook is a much more consistent medium of communication these days than cell phones.
As expected, she was now “In A Relationship” with a young beta of about her age. Marlee was a Type 3, meaning she was a younger woman who would fuck a much older guy and have no problem with it, but was accustomed to dating men her own age. I smiled, nodded, noted the event in one of my spreadsheets, and started a six month timer.
Six months later, I sent her a text. No response.
No prob. I waited another six months, and sent her another text. This time, she responded instantly. With a few back and forths, I discovered that, sure enough, she was having all kinds of problems with her new boyfriend because he was so needy. I told her she should come over so she could cum over. Two days later, that’s exactly what she was doing with me. Being direct like this works just fine with women well under age 33. With women 33 or over, sadly, you have to put in a little more work, like with Jen.
We started seeing each other for several months; almost every week.
One day, about four months after this, some guy from a strange phone number started calling me and leaving me multiple voice mails about what an asshole I was, how he “caught me,” and how he was going to tell everyone I work with that I “have sex with younger women.” Oh no. I hope no one finds that out.
Oh wait. Everyone already knows. (I love it when people make threats when they have no idea who they’re dealing with; a guy of near-unlimited outcome independence who’s almost completely detached from the usual societal system.) Marlee texted me a little later, saying that this idiot was her new boyfriend. Sure enough, it was another needy, young beta, different from the first one, who had looked through her phone and was now throwing Drama From Hell™ at her. She then went on to explain that she could not see me or talk to me anymore, ever again.
I laughed out loud as I texted her that it was cool with me, because it was, and I wished her the best of luck, knowing I’d be inside her again within a year at the very most. Women put up with bullshit drama from a man during the first few months of NRE, but not after that.
Exactly four months later (you know how this ends, don’t you?) I got a Facebook message from her out of the blue. She had changed cell phones and didn’t have any other way to reach me. (See? The Facebook method works.) Her new boyfriend didn’t work out (big shock) because he was too much drama (big shock) and she wanted to hang out again.
We resumed having sex. Multiple LSNFTEs from the same woman. This happens often, particularly with the younger ones.
I hope these case studies have helped you understand these techniques a little better. The LSFNTE is a very normal, typical, and usual thing in my life, and I’ve come to enjoy the ease of the process. If your goal is to maintain a large, long-term roster of women, you must become comfortable with this process and proficient with the rules, such as ignoring women for at least 4-6 months when they leave you, not freaking out when they do, following all the relationship rules when you’re seeing them, keeping your frame, always be having sex with at least 2-3 women, etc. Good luck!
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Omar 2016-11-21 06:57:06
Blackdragon, what do you do if you've reinitiated contact 2-3 times over a year but don't reconnect with the girl? Do you keep trying after a few months or just let it go?
J 2016-11-21 07:34:20
Back before nonmonogamy was even an option in my mind, I was LSFNTE'd by a 35 year old. I was 28 at the time. This was before i found your blog, but looking back, i did follow many of your post-breakup rules. She came back 6 months later and we ended up being exclusive for the next 5 years. Then we broke up around the time I found your blog. I followed your post breakup rules to the T, and 4 months later she was literally calling me crying because she missed me so much. So I brought her back as a low-end MLTR. It lasted for about 8 months until June when she LSFNTE'd me again... although I'm not sure if there's another guy because she barely uses facebook. But I'm following the breakup rules again, so we'll see if she returns for a third time. History tell me that she'll be back, but with her turning 42 soon, I wonder if that could effect things.
Eugene 2016-11-21 08:26:19
Very interesting. In the last two examples you gave it seems like it was more in the 1 yr + range. Do you have a rough % estimate on how many of your girls actually come back to resume the relationship within the 4-6 month mark ? Or do most take longer ?
Eugene 2016-11-21 08:34:33
Also - I think you might have mentioned this elsewhere but...if a woman ever does LSNFTE you, does this basically permanently exclude her from ever being a high end MLTR or even an OLTR in the future?
Onder Hassan 2016-11-21 08:40:06
This strategy works to a T. I know because it happened to the first girl I employed this with. The key thing that determines whether they'll come back or not is if you maintain frame and don't turn beta. If this happens, the chances of them returning is greatly diminished. Now that I understand that they'll come back eventually, i'm no longer afraid of losing any of them. No girl's worth losing your frame over. In the end, you will always be that one guy she couldn't quite get. It all comes down to validation. This is essentially the essence of Game. The skill lies in the ability to seduce them whilst having them chase for the validation throughout the seduction process.
Joe K 2016-11-21 10:29:18
"One day, about four months after this, some guy from a strange phone number started calling me and leaving me multiple voice mails about what an asshole I was, how he “caught me,” and how he was going to tell everyone I work with that I “have sex with younger women.” Oh no. I hope no one finds that out." Best fuckin' part of the post LOL. Thanks for all that context BD. Makes a lot of sense and gives a blueprint on how to handle 'LSNFTEs' with indifference - the difference that makes the difference. I hate facebook. Deleted it a while back. This seems like a key logistical tool for you, though. I like the spreadsheet idea but hate the idea of bookmarking facebook pages. Also, when a chick starts in with dishonest bullshit I prefer to just ghost her. Seems like, from what you wrote, even when you get overt dishonesty from women you just don't care. Kind of an eye-opener for me, so thanks for that also.
Blackdragon 2016-11-21 10:43:42
Blackdragon, what do you do if you’ve reinitiated contact 2-3 times over a year but don’t reconnect with the girl? Do you keep trying after a few months or just let it go?Wait another entire year and then try again. Three times a year is too often.
I followed your post breakup rules to the T, and 4 months later she was literally calling me crying because she missed me so muchYup. That's how it works.
Very interesting. In the last two examples you gave it seems like it was more in the 1 yr + range.Yes. The longer the better.
Do you have a rough % estimate on how many of your girls actually come back to resume the relationship within the 4-6 month mark ? Or do most take longer ?I'd have to pull out my spreadsheets and make some calculations. Just off the top of my head, I'd say that women under the age of about 27 return within 4-6 months about 50-60% of the time(?) and women over 27 perhaps 20% of the time(?). Younger women tend to come back faster because their relationships tend to be more meaningless.
Blackdragon 2016-11-21 11:03:32
if a woman ever does LSNFTE you, does this basically permanently exclude her from ever being a high end MLTR or even an OLTR in the future?Generally speaking, yes (though I'm sure there could be usual exceptions). If a woman LSFNTEs me, it shows she's not equipped to handle a long-term relationship with me. So I'll happily take her back, but if she wants to get serious again, it's going to be an uphill battle for her, since she's already shown via her actions that a long-term, consistent commitment with me isn't something she's capable of or wants. Most women already know this and don't really push the serious stuff once they come back from a LSNFTE. Often they downgrade themselves instead.
Parade 2016-11-21 11:04:51
A little off topic, but still somewhat relevant: ran into a new situation recently. A chick that's solidly FB level to me was pushing for more (going on a trip, going on dates, etc) so I ghosted her. About 2 months after that she drunk texted me and threw some drama at me, so I cut contact again. Then (about) 1 month later she randomly showed up at my place looking to fuck. I sent her away because I was with another chick at the time. Before you say this is a 'there's this one girl' thing...I don't particularly care if I never see her again, and I can't have her showing up at my place uninvited. She's foreign(Latin American) so I'm thinking she might be misreading the nonverbal signals. I've never had that happen with a US chick. Is this behavior insta hard next territory? Or should I actually verbalize some things and see what happens? Which is easier on her?
Blackdragon 2016-11-21 11:21:17
Before you say this is a ‘there’s this one girl’ thing…I don’t particularly care if I never see her againIt's a one girl thing. Your stated feelings or intentions are irrelevant. https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl/
JudoJohn 2016-11-21 12:04:28
I have two goals at this time: To keep 2 MLTR's going at all times (plus perhaps a FB) and to be LSNFTE'd but have her come back, at least for a while. From the outside, it's really kind of bizarre. My preferred "failure mode" moving forward is for a woman I'm seeing/fucking to go exclusive with another man she was seeing/fucking while she was seeing/fucking me. I described this to my best friend, Needy Alpha type, and he finds it very, very strange. Yet before his dumb ass got married, he conducted his affairs in a wild way,with high drama, drama I'm looking to avoid. Needless to say, he left quite a bit of wreckage behind him, they rarely if ever came back. If this dynamic is real (and I don't have any reason to doubt that it is, indeed, real) it lends a lot of support to Blackdragon's system being an ethical system in my opinion. It certainly grants all the agency in the world to women, who come back of their own free will. Women aren't stupid, they are (for the most part) maximizing their own happiness. I also feel that since I want nothing to do with children or TMM (which are of course tightly bound) it's only fair that I do nothing to restrict a woman's pursuit of the same, while spending some time with me as she does so.
Anthony 2016-11-21 12:05:43
A Latin American chick shows up at your place to fuck and you don't fuck? Seriously dude? SMH!!!!! She was in a moment of weakness and you should have taken advantage. Women do it ALL THE TIME when they want to divorce your ass.
Parade 2016-11-21 12:18:13
A Latin American chick shows up at your place to fuck and you don’t fuck? Seriously dude? SMH!!!!! She was in a moment of weakness and you should have taken advantage. Women do it ALL THE TIME when they want to divorce your ass.You missed the part where "I was with a different chick". Not "I'm seeing another chick" but "another chick was over at my place to fuck at that exact moment".
It’s a one girl thing. Your stated feelings or intentions are irrelevant.I'm not looking to "salvage" her. I'm really asking "am I playing with fire and about to get burnt, or is it a cultural thing and I might need to be a bit more verbal about my requirements?" Very different from any of the questions you stated on that post.
JudoJohn 2016-11-21 12:25:18
You missed the part where “I was with a different chick”. Not “I’m seeing another chick” but “another chick was over at my place to fuck at that exact moment”.hahaha yeah I noticed that too. There's Outcome Independence, and then there's "Hey, give me 15 minutes, 20 if you care if I take a shower to get the smell of Girl A off of me! Girl A, get naked now!"
Anthony 2016-11-21 13:34:29
lol..my bad Parade. Yeah, at that point it's either you set up a threesome or send her packing. The 2nd option causes less drama.
donnie demarco 2016-11-21 17:21:07
I'm currently dating a "Jessie" (just saw her last night, actually). We originally dated for a year, but she LSNFTEd me this past summer for what I assume was a bf. I just ignored her. Two months later, she texts me wanting to hang out. We talk for about an hour, but nothing physical happens. Nevertheless, she texts me again later that night asking to come over. We have sex. Since then, I've been seeing her about once every two months. We have sex, reminisce a bit, then go off on our separate ways for a month or two. She's in college and enjoying her life, and I'm happy that she's having fun. Since the LSNFTE, I've never initiated contact with her. She always contacts me within 1-2 months. When she does, I always pitch dates; no endless chatting or any other attention charity.
Leon 2016-11-21 20:37:41
Excellent read again BD, I particularly like the Jen case, learnt a lot about how you deal with LSNFTE girls that are cold.
Like many of my women over the last few years, I hadn’t added her to my friends list, so she could keep plausible deniability with any other men she datedIs this important? I often add every girl to my friends list (fuck buddies included) as soon as they are hooked (2 times sex), sometimes even before that.
Blackdragon 2016-11-21 20:56:46
I often add every girl to my friends list (fuck buddies included) as soon as they are hooked (2 times sex), sometimes even before that.Adding your FBs and MLTRs to Facebook is perfectly fine, and I've always recommended doing that provided you manage your Facebook page correctly. If they're cool with it, go for it. The reason I haven't in many cases is because some women (especially younger, cheating, serial monogamist girls who seemingly always have boyfriends whom they cheat on; ah, monogamy) get a little nervous about adding you to their FB page. If that's the case, just bookmark their page in your browser and send them a message via Facebook (if Facebook lets you; sometimes you have to pay 1$) so that you're permanently logged into FB messages list so they can find you later without having to search for you.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2016-11-22 05:52:07
@BD When a girl does text you to let you know they have a bf, do you leave it with a 'That's great, I'm happy for you two, if you ever want to catch up again in the future feel free to get in touch.' text? I tend to, just wondering if you differ on this.
Joe K 2016-11-22 05:52:36
"it lends a lot of support to Blackdragon’s system being an ethical system in my opinion" Man, I hope so...that sounds great! I'm an ethical guy, and can't understand how people who have no ethics can get out bed in the morning, walk around all day, and not wanna blow their brains out. So...great examples in BD's post here...none of the 3 case studies seem to involve unethical conduct... "especially younger, cheating, serial monogamist girls who seemingly always have boyfriends whom they cheat on" AH FUCK. Is it really "love women while staying free"? Really, love? Gimme a break. That's despicable behavior. There's a vast chasm of ethical variance between the chick never disclosing anything + you never asking vs. her explicitly saying that she has a boyfriend/husband (in a non shit test way). And for her to do it over and over again? She knows what she's doing. That's unforgivable. Somewhere some poor dude is probably not using condoms with that chick, assuming she's being faithful with him, while you're plunging your cock inside her behind his back. I mean, dress it up anyway you want - the mouth he's kissing is the mouth that's been sucking your dick (so there goes the 'condom' argument, nobody uses condoms for BJs except hookers). I mean, I hate to be the self-righteous prick for thinking these things through, but c'mon... I've never even remained buddies with dudes who pulled this shit on their wives/girlfriends. No double standard here, fellas. Wrong is wrong.
AL 2016-11-22 06:13:27
Great picture. You gotta love a boomerang. It's the best sex ever. Sort of make up sex without the guilt. 🙂
Anon. 2016-11-22 06:14:23
Joe, what exactly is the ethical problem of there being some guy who believes something that isn't true, while two adults engage in consensual activities?
Onder 2016-11-22 06:15:10
Just to add to Caleb's article. If you're new into this and feeling guilty about not giving any of these girls monogamy. Just bare in mind the fact that they will happily walk away and date someone else if you don't give them "What they want." There's no such thing as love or loyalty, only personal needs. People are inherently selfish, so the only person who will ultimately care for your needs is you. So always put your needs first ahead of any of the girls you date.
AL 2016-11-22 06:19:16
Just bare in mind the fact that they will happily walk away and date someone else if you don’t give them, “What they want.”Exactly. And usually quicker and easier than a man can. BUT, they still come back if you have got it right. That's the beauty of not giving a damn. Takes a few times to KNOW that it will happen but once you do know, the playing field is a bit more level. 🙂
Onder 2016-11-22 07:11:10
BUT, they still come back if you have got it right. That’s the beauty of not giving a damn.The reason why is because of SMP (Sexual Marketplace Value). Women want to feel validated because it provides an ego boost to their self-worth. Any man who can easily walk away and not bat an eyelid demonstrates higher value. Once you fully understand this, you'll realise that them coming back isn't due to love and care but due to wanting to get the validation. They will keep coming back until they get it. A typical man's estimation of a woman's love is never accurate. The truth is, they will never love us in the way that we expect them to. It's all conditional.
Tom 2016-11-22 07:17:37
Joe K is a white knight, I bet he doesn't get laid much. He simply doesn't understand the basic principle of AFBB. Plus male & typically female nature. We talked about it A LOT in manosphere.
Onder 2016-11-22 07:36:51
Somewhere some poor dude is probably not using condoms with that chick, assuming she’s being faithful with him, while you’re plunging your cock inside her behind his back.Welcome to female nature. I would strongly recommend reading 'Sperm Wars' and 'Sex at Dawn'. Women have an inherent Biologically drive to seek for Lovers and Providers - They have a Dual Mating Strategy. If you commit 100%, then you're by very definition a "Provider". If you combine this with Egalitarianism, Gynocentrism and Female Empowerment, then you're quite literally asking to get cuckholded. And it will all be "Your fault." It might all seem unethical and unfair. But Biology and Hypergamy simply doesn't care. Might as well educate yourself on the facts and use it to better navigate through the landmines of modern day dating.
JudoJohn 2016-11-22 07:59:20
Yep this is dangerously close to feeding a troll.
Really, love? Gimme a break. That’s despicable behavior. There’s a vast chasm of ethical variance between the chick never disclosing anything + you never asking vs. her explicitly saying that she has a boyfriend/husband (in a non shit test way). And for her to do it over and over again? She knows what she’s doing. That’s unforgivable.This reeks of tired old Kantian ethics. Yeah, she knows what she's doing. Don't forgive her if you want. But the blame is on her in this case. Don't expect all guys to enforce societal rules, especially ones that they don't agree with. I certainly do not act in a way that I could make it a universal law, because that's insanely arrogant in my opinion. I somewhat feel for women. Humans are non-monogamous by nature. It must suck to have to play by the rules they have to play by. Let me be clear on this, while I was with her, my unicorn once had a dalliance with another man, he got to first base. Guess what? It was an immense boost to our sex life because she felt sexier. Take that for what it's worth. If you're a RP/MRA/MGTOW type, it's probably worth nothing, and I'm just a cuck. Who fucked a girl half his age for 4 years, but hey, whatever.
JudoJohn 2016-11-22 08:01:47
So always put your needs first ahead of any of the girls you date.And expect, even encourage, her to do the same.
Joe K 2016-11-22 08:04:41
Oh, OK Tommy Boy. You're probably some poor schmuck with some shit job who gets laid about once every blue moon. I said nothing positive whatsoever about monogamy, and didn't even speak up for the *chicks*, you dummy. I was speaking up for the dudes involved when BD runs his scheme so haphazardly. I mean - forget the ethics if you have no conscience - That's how he could very likely wind up dead pulling that shit. Sometimes what goes around comes around.
Joe K 2016-11-22 08:12:00
@Anon It's that it's completely intentional. If there are an abundance of women who are - even just 'possibly' - not in committed relationships who are available to bang, why would you... -deliberately interfere with *another* existing agreement between two consenting adults -give the chick who's acting that way the gift of fucking you (not to mention - to 'love' someone who treats others that way) -not have any regard for the dude who's being fucked over (it might not be 'his fault'. ever consider that?) -put yourself at that kinda risk from a potentially (rightfully) angry dude That's scarcity in my book. I mean, shit, if that's the extent of your 'abundance' - callgirls are a 50X better and safer option if you want the immediate bang and don't have instant access to pussy.
JudoJohn 2016-11-22 08:13:31
Joe K is a white knightAnd/or a troll, the feeding of whom is not allowed. It's interesting, though......I mean, who is he White Knighting for? Other men. If you read his objection, it's all about the poor fellow on the other side. Not my fucking problem. The only real fear I have in this space is it being made my problem by a woman who is not cautious enough. But very, very few desirable women are truly "alone". Edit: this comment was directed at the first comment from Joe K, not the last two. I expect pretty much everything he said to be nuked.
JudoJohn 2016-11-22 08:29:57
you’ll realise that them coming back isn’t due to love and care but due to wanting to get the validationThis rings false to me. I hope Caleb comments on it. Seems to me that they come back because they enjoy themselves, and often after LSNFTE they are kind of exhausted by the drama of the last relationship.
K 2016-11-22 10:10:47
A typical man’s estimation of a woman’s love is never accurate. The truth is, they will never love us in the way that we expect them to. It’s all conditional.Right. While men, as demonstrated by this and other threads on this blog, love women selflessly and unconditionally. 😀
Bill Hemmer 2016-11-22 11:27:46
The reason women come back is the same reason men come back, good sex. If you take care of a woman in bed, meaning consistently give her orgasms, she will generally return when she is between relationships. This is what we also do. It's fairly simple and very common. BD is right but I think makes this too complex. Just make a list of girls you've had sex with in the past. Every 3-6 months, contact them. If you do, you'll have a rotating pool of sexual partners. Rotate in a new one every so often and you'll never be without. And of course, always leave things on good terms so they will return when their current relationship inevitably doesn't work out. Simple and effective.
Blackdragon 2016-11-22 11:38:37
When a girl does text you to let you know they have a bf, do you leave it with a ‘That’s great, I’m happy for you two, if you ever want to catch up again in the future feel free to get in touch.’ text? I tend to, just wondering if you differ on this.Generally speaking, yes, I do the same. However, if it's been a long time since we've talked, and she's texting me out of the blue, I pitch a meet regardless of what she says, since texting me out of the clear blue is a clear indicator of interest.
That’s despicable behavior.I agree. Lying and cheating is despicable. That's why I've literally never done it to anyone. But if a FB is doing it to someone else, I don't care. That's her problem, as well as the guy she's dating problem. Monogamy doesn't fucking work. If people can't understand that or don't want to acknowledge that, if people choose to be that stupid and delusional, I have no sympathy. If everyone embraced nonmonogamy, no one would ever cheat and we wouldn't have this silly issue. I have also said that you should never fuck a woman if A) you personally know her boyfriend or husband, B) you might "run into" the boyfriend or husband sometime in the future (meaning stay the hell away from taken women in your local neighborhood, workplace, church, etc). I follow those rules and never break them. Fucking your buddy's or co-worker's wife or girlfriend is asking for all kinds of trouble and is very stupid.
you’ll realise that them coming back isn’t due to love and care but due to wanting to get the validation This rings false to me. I hope Caleb comments on it. Seems to me that they come back because they enjoy themselves, and often after LSNFTE they are kind of exhausted by the drama of the last relationship.
CrabRangoon 2016-11-22 12:19:13
@Bill Hemmer You are correct which is why BD makes a point to say to be sure and give women great sex and orgasms every time. I've had women stay in the rotation for years because the sex was really good. Sometimes they'd drop off for a bit due to my non-monogamy, but then return weeks or months later. I have this very situation right now. I was with her for about 1 and 1/2 years, sex was always great, she always came but couldn't deal with me having other MLTR's (even though she is still legally married and living with the guy which is funny-although they are just roomies and have no intimacy anymore). She decided she had to cut off all communication to get over it to which I obliged her and continued on with my other girls. About a month or so later, she started texting me again. This stuff works. Just always maintain your dominant frame and never grovel or beg when they leave. Just let them go and you'll be the guy they couldn't "get". Almost a guarantee they will try to "get" you again in the future.
JudoJohn 2016-11-22 12:39:05
Just let them go and you’ll be the guy they couldn’t “get”. Almost a guarantee they will try to “get” you again in the future.I have an aunt in her late 70's who was a notorious slut back in the day. This is exactly what she told me.
couldn’t deal with me having other MLTR’sAgain, I'm new to this....I'm guessing that this might happen sometimes right after "the talk." Not hard to imagine a woman realizing what the game is (they are very intuitive critters), walking away, and then realizing it might be good for a while (especially since there is no restriction being place on them.)
JB 2016-11-22 13:55:11
Very good post indeed. Living with soft-nexts is a very important part of non-monogamy. It's about letting go of your proud ego and accepting that girls never know what they want. What is even more important is knowing this: LSNFTE is the least dramatic form of "breaking up". Guess what: Break-ups happen in monogamous relationships as well. The difference is that monogamous relationships (which often last a similar length) often end in break-ups with drama and hurt feelings. This is why most monogamous couples end up hating each other afterwards. Since monogamy doesn't last anyway, this means that you have those two options: Regular break-up: Lots of drama. Hurt feelings. Low chance of ever seeing each other again. LSNFTE: No drama, if any communication at all. High chances of seeing each other again. Even though our ego might get hurt (The first times, you do get "moody"), remember how it felt (for most of us) back in our monogamous days, when our only source of validation and sex that we already invested so much in suddenly opted out and left (Or we had to leave her. Also painful). Remember all the time leading up to a break-up or divorce - Months or even years of trying to "salvage" the relationship. Drama. Frustration. Doubt. I'd prefer a quick separation followed by a passionate reunion any day.
JudoJohn 2016-11-22 14:10:46
suddenly opted out and leftMy first wife, it was about a 3-4 year process. My second wife (yeah, I know) was about a 2 year process. So. Much. Fucking. Drama. My last break up was like a dream. I think I told you on another thread, JB, but she is 20 years younger. She told me summer of 2014 she owed it to herself to date others in graduate school, but graduate school didn't start until summer 2016. Here's the break up: I drove her car pulling a trailer to her new pad in the Bay area, helped her set up her apartment, backpacked the beach, fucked once more in a cottage overlooking the ocean, and got dropped off at the airport. So. Little. Drama. It drove me to find a way to handle relationships better, and not be left with my cock in my hand over and over again. I am just glad I took some time off (to avoid casting oneitis elsewhere) and found Blackdragon's blog (I started on Red Pill and although "spinning plates" isn't all that different from FB/MLTR's, they are just so much more disrespectful over there).
JB 2016-11-22 22:37:01
My last break up was like a dream. I think I told you on another thread, JB, but she is 20 years younger. She told me summer of 2014 she owed it to herself to date others in graduate school, but graduate school didn’t start until summer 2016. Here’s the break up: I drove her car pulling a trailer to her new pad in the Bay area, helped her set up her apartment, backpacked the beach, fucked once more in a cottage overlooking the ocean, and got dropped off at the airport.You did, but nevertheless, the point is right on topic this time. Imagine how she feels about you after that. The only guy she will ever meet that, after a long and fruitful relationship, accepted her wishes without a huff, helped her when she needed it the most, gave her one last validation that he did indeed care for her, and then wished her well. You'll be in her mind forever. For all the betas she'll dominate, for all the Alpha 1.0s that will put up rules and get jealous, you were the guy to stand out. This is exactly why I never want to go back to the regular blue pill scheme.
I am just glad I took some time off (to avoid casting oneitis elsewhere) and found Blackdragon’s blog (I started on Red Pill and although “spinning plates” isn’t all that different from FB/MLTR’s, they are just so much more disrespectful over there).I was in the same boat before I got here. I was doing serial monogamy for a while (without knowing the term), until I got tired of all the problems that come with it. I then started learning some serious red pill game, but what annoyed me was the traditional manosphere view on women and relationships; It's about women being stupid, heartless creatures and men having to dominate their territory. No thank you. I have better things to do than being angry and jealous.
Tom 2016-11-23 08:42:59
@JB Hate always comes when u have been lied by the feminine primacy or the society. And then it's up to each individual whether they want to digest the hate, turning into better person (eg, pua, or absolute being absolete focus on own missions). Ultimately, its not about hating women 100%, its accepting male & female about how they operate biologically to satisfy their selfish 'reason'.
JB 2016-11-23 13:13:21
Hate always comes when u have been lied by the feminine primacy or the society.I've certainly tried being cheated on. I've also tried cheating. Even on a girl who I loved.
And then it’s up to each individual whether they want to digest the hate, turning into better person (eg, pua, or absolute being absolete focus on own missions).Exactly. My first girlfriend back when I was young cheated on me, and I kept away from girls many years.. And went beta.. Then, I started putting the frustrations to good use instead. I started working out a lot, getting a great education, started bettering my life, learning the traditional "Mystery" Alpha mindset.. And got directly into serial monogamy instead.. Always ended in me not being able to stop myself from using the new powers of getting women as a 1.0..
Ultimately, its not about hating women 100%, its accepting male & female about how they operate biologically to satisfy their selfish ‘reason’.And there you have it. It's a major acceptance that you can only reach if you are striving above the Alpha 1.0 or beta status. It's knowing that following the natural urges that we all have is not wrong. It's the lying about it that makes it wrong.
Jameson 2016-11-23 18:13:39
Blackdragon. Here is my problem: I have these girls sometimes that start to fade and I need to know the right way to play this. They don't give me drama, they just stop accepting meeting up. What is the right way to play this? I get the girls (ages 18 to 33). I follow all your principles and after banging her once per week for anywhere to 4 to 10 weeks they start to realize I'm not going to commit to them and realize we're just FB's. Do I then have the talk with them to explain my position on monogamy when they start to fade and see if they'll go along with it? Or do I just soft next them until they start accepting? But how do I soft next when I only text them once per week? Wait a month? How many times do you ask them out when they can't meet before you stop asking? Sometimes they ask if I'm banging other girls I try to deflect as you suggest, but then they start not accepting my meetups eventually. They answer the phone and texts and are sweet it just it seems they are not coming through anymore. How do you handle this?
Anon. 2016-11-24 06:17:16
They don’t give me drama, they just stop accepting meeting up.Would you find these women Dominants as per BD's definition? Not loud and imposing, but unwavering in what they're looking for. I had some women that would really press me for answers, and the result would be invariably what you describe. I'm seeing rather a clear dichotomy in women: either I'm evasive and they're OK with that (as BD describes), or they won't take that for an answer and they leave shortly. So I think sometimes you go against something deeply ingrained in their minds and there's nothing you can do. However, I had women tell me, "I used to have such and such requirements and later I realized they were silly so I dropped them". Maybe they'll date some other people and come back to you with a changed mindset, provided you don't kill the attraction in the meantime. As for having The Talk early or in other ways verbalizing the structure of the relationship, BD says that's death. I put this to test recently. There was a girl who would text me every single day, call me often, including in the middle of the night. I had The Talk with her even before sex (she's a virgin, though we did other things). I never heard from her since (which is precisely what I wanted to achieve). Also note the situation you described could well be caused by LSNFTE.
Dionysus 2016-11-24 12:15:01
36 year old guy here. I have a 19 year old FB who I suspect might be in a new mono relationship. I'm bracing myself for a LSNFTE soon, and if it happens I'm ready to respond accordingly. But here's my question: instead of simply saying bye, could I say something like "Btw do you have any single friends who would want to see me?" In other words, tap into her social circle before she leaves. Is there an Alpha 2.0-style technique for this that won't backfire?
Dad 2016-11-24 19:33:46
Dionysus, Don't ever ask a girl you were seeing if you can date her friends. I have experimented and it does not 100% work. If the girls don't want or can't have you they sure as hell don't want to see you with your friends And also it will disqualify you for any future contact with her. Don't do it. Just let it happen and if she comes back she comes back.
Dionysus 2016-11-24 20:15:47
Dad, Thanks for the guidance / warning. It's what I was afraid of hearing lol.
Blackdragon 2016-11-24 21:31:23
@BD: oops, forgot the rule about trolls and was too late to delete the comment. Too bad if this is gonna get me banned.This is the second time you've done this, and you've used up your final warning. One more time, and yes, you will be banned, from both blogs. You have got to learn to control your mouth dude (or in this case, fingers). You've got a real problem there.
I get the girls (ages 18 to 33). I follow all your principles and after banging her once per week for anywhere to 4 to 10 weeks they start to realize I’m not going to commit to them and realize we’re just FB’s. Do I then have the talk with them to explain my position on monogamy when they start to fade and see if they’ll go along with it?No. The Talk is only for women who demand it after 3-5 months of avoiding the issue, and almost always these are MLTRs, not FBs.
Or do I just soft next them until they start accepting?You don't soft next someone unless they do something wrong. Seeing me less often is not "something wrong" in my book, so no, I would not next them. I would just keep seeing them for as infrequently as they like.
How many times do you ask them out when they can’t meet before you stop asking?Generally speaking, about 2 or 3. Then I just move on, and hit them up six months later.
Sometimes they ask if I’m banging other girls I try to deflect as you suggest, but then they start not accepting my meetups eventually. They answer the phone and texts and are sweet it just it seems they are not coming through anymore.If they keep asking and it's been at least 3-5 months, then deliver The Talk. However, I have a strong feeling you're breaking a lot of the FBs rules with these girls and acting either to boyfriendish or to MLTRish.
Dad 2016-11-26 11:21:27
Thanks blackdragon. That helps. Sorry about posting twice. Just thought you stopped viewing the older post comments. Won't do it again. Great blog! Very good stuff here in my experience.
josh 2016-11-28 04:21:12
I am wondering, with the exception of things that have nothing to do with the relationship, such as relocating for a job or whatever, what is the average "life-span" of your FB's? I know you are saying basically they never really are over, but I mean how long do they last before the _first_ LSNFTE? I am also curious, do you ever have women LSNFTE you without finding a replacement guy first or is it generally always a response to finding a replacement guy?
Jameson 2016-11-28 11:41:04
@josh Ok here's the deal. I do what black dragon mentions pretty consistently. I think a lot of what he writes is excellent advise and it works. However, what I don't ever experience from women that he consistently mentions is drama. How can they give you drama when you only see them once a week and aren't in touch with them but once or twice a week. They know they have no control over you when you're that distant. And if you lay it down in the bedroom and are a cool guy they won't challenge you. I literally never have problems with this. Maybe others do I don't know why. What does happen however is they lose interest because you don't commit. They will want you to commit to them and will string along for awhile, but eventually they will start to feel resentment and will stop keeping in touch with you and stop seeing you. Not in a bad way just will stop responding because they get bitter. Eventually they may come back and contact you. They may bang you more but eventually they rationalize too much again. Then they try to resist you and end up always being luke warm because they want the relationship. It sucks. It that's the way it is. For me this process plays out in the 1-6 month range. Girls often times come back and I've had them stay around for years, but they are really intermittent by then and it kinda sucks cause I want to see them once a week not once every year. But that's life I guess. Unless I haven't figured it out yet.
Blackdragon 2016-11-28 14:37:42
I am wondering, with the exception of things that have nothing to do with the relationship, such as relocating for a job or whatever, what is the average “life-span” of your FB’s? I know you are saying basically they never really are over, but I mean how long do they last before the _first_ LSNFTE?My rough average is around 15 months.
I am also curious, do you ever have women LSNFTE you without finding a replacement guy first or is it generally always a response to finding a replacement guy?LSNFTE means there's another guy. If there isn't another guy, it's not a LSNFTE. If you're asking if women ever stop seeing me when there isn't another guy, the answer is yes, though it's more rare (and usually women over age 33).
CurtsNOKC 2016-11-30 11:00:53
@blackdragon Why would a woman that says she doesn't want to get married AND claims that $ has no factor on who she is dating (she gave me several examples of past Beta's buying her big stuff and how it did not help their odds with them getting into her pants), then one day out of the blue quote this infamous phrase to me when I wanted to have sex: "Why buy a cow when you can get milk for free?" Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't this typically apply to Marriage?? If not, what else could she be referring to hear? Maybe she had a Freudian slip? Just seems very strange coming from a chic that wants nothing to do w/ married life and has even bought me many things or split stuff. Any ideas? Could she be re-thinking the marriage deal and is about to drop that on me??
Blackdragon 2016-11-30 13:34:29
Could she be re-thinking the marriage deal and is about to drop that on me??https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl/
Kaelos 2016-12-06 06:59:28
Six months later, I sent her a text. No response. No prob. I waited another six months, and sent her another text.What's an example text you send to reconnect with a woman and how does a typical text exchange look like before you spring a meet?
Blackdragon 2016-12-06 11:57:13
What’s an example text you send to reconnect with a woman and how does a typical text exchange look like before you spring a meet?"Hey. How's it going?" "I just saw an X that reminded me of that time we talked about Y. Made me laugh." "Yo. How's life?" Don't overthink this stuff.
Floriano 2016-12-15 11:31:03
Been involved with a women 3 or four times in a 25 year span. Been friends, lovers, friends, lovers both of us got married then divorced. Reconnected again as lovers and then out of blue she Texted/ told me she was getting married in a few days and friendship is all she wants from me now. After a short text from me wishing her well and best of luck all contact from me is now over not going to friend zone. My gut tells me that the boomerang effect will have to be over now its been repeated so many times but past history says differently. I am going to just disappear like I have in the past and see what happens. I guess this is what makes life interesting. Maybe if your still blogging in the future I will keep you informed as to the result. I have had a pretty good success rate with women coming back but its about 65% not the 95% you have. I imagine if its going to happen now that she is married the timer will have to be set for a longer period of time before I hear from her. Time will tell
CurtsNOKC 2016-12-15 12:08:37
@Floriano I keep them ALL on a 6 month rotation just n case. It's just easier that way and seems life goes in semi-annual spurts for whatever reason. Married people usually are over the honeymoon period after 2 years I believe. When the newness wears off....
Floirano 2016-12-16 07:32:59
she married a man who she once was engaged to "her best friend" It will be intresting if she comes back because it she does seem to me that it would fit to the t your defination of a LSNFTE.
Beth 2017-12-29 19:28:26
I know this is outside of the scope of your male-advice, but I haven't found a female equivalent blog. Do you find that when the woman is the non-monogamous one and her wanting-to-find-Disney male MLTR partner is nearing "settling down" age (especially around 40, I'd say), the roles are reversed and the MAN does the LSNFTE? I guess my theory is: It's about stage in life and delusions, more than a gender-divide. I've been with a guy for 5 years who keeps leaving for other relationships, but then finds his way back. He has wanted to marry me and have children, and knows that's not going to happen with me. But when his relationships explode, he comes back. He doesn't have children, I do. So I think in situations where a female's biological drives are different (not about settling down), they swap roles. Men seem to do the Settling Down Life Crisis around 40ish, it seems. I'm open to being wrong, and I know I'm an aberration for female-mentality. Women's Commitment-Seeking Phase just lasts longer than men, right? So the LSNFTE would happen in a longer stage for them.
Ray 2018-02-18 16:04:36
I waited a month and hit her up to come to my place. She seemed really interested, said she really wants to but couldn't because she was hanging out with her new boyfriend at the time. Should I try again or wait a couple months again?
NOM 2018-06-02 11:48:05
Just curious. Does LSNFTE work when you're the one that split with the girl? Thank you,
John reid 2018-07-31 06:05:00
So it's been 3 days since breakup this was a long distance. Has started to send me Instagram posts/vids relating to stuff we did in the past. Is this contact or should I just keep ignoring till the time frame you recommend? Thanks BD