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Marrying A Non-Western Woman Won’t Work
A concept that’s growing in popularity with exasperated Western men is to go outside of the West to find a young, cute girl from a distant, non-Western country, marry her, and bring her back home to live in marital monogamous bliss for the rest of your life. “I didn’t marry one of those white Western bitches, so problem solved!”
-By Caleb Jones
Story One: The Russian Bride
A man I’ll call James, a close friend and co-worker of mine, is an Alpha Male 1.0. He was decent looking, confident, and had no real problem getting dates with women or getting laid. As an Alpha 1.0, his preferred dating style was serial monogamy. He would have sex with a few women, find one he really liked, quickly get oneitis, and get monogamous. He would cheat on her of course, sometimes getting caught and sometimes not.
This kind of relationship would last anywhere from six months to two or three years, at which point there would be a huge, dramatic break up with lots of drama and chaos. Then he’d brag about how “pumped he was to be single again,” bang a bunch of new girls, find a new one he liked, get oneitis, get monogamous, and repeat the entire process all over again. As I’ve talked about in my book, this is the standard dating model for the Alpha Male 1.0 that I’ve seen a thousand times. (You probably have too).Being a more right-wing guy and a semi-regular manosphere reader, he quickly got tired of “white women” or “Western women” who were all “bitches,” “not respectful,” and “not loyal.” He decided he wanted to get married to a woman who wasn’t from the West, and began his quest for his Unicorn Woman.
I warned him that his plan wouldn’t work. He snorted and said I was no expert on marriage (despite the fact that I was married for nine years and he had never been married at all), and that while many of my concepts were accurate, I was oversimplifying things and was "not always right." Uh huh. So I did what I always do when normal people say that to me; I smiled, sat back, and waited for everything to blow up in his face, hoping that maybe the delusional dumbass might learn something that way. I tried to place a wager on his plan not working so I could at least make some money from his foolishness, but unfortunately I could find no takers. (Dammit!)
Like me, he had a thing for blonde women, thus decided that his future perfect, loyal, feminine, respectful wife should be from Russia. He hit up several Russian/Eastern European dating sites (I don't recall which ones) and started contacting young girls. Having read several manosphere sites, he made sure to focus only on Russian women who lived in small towns instead of large cities, in order to find as conservative and uncorrupted a girl as possible.Using some of the techniques from my new online dating manual, he eventually found a girl he really liked. (Call me Cupid. I bring love to the world.) She was 21 years old and from a small town east of Moscow. I’ll spare you the details, but excitedly, he flew over to Russia. He started hanging out with her and having sex with her, as he flew back and forth to Russia a handful of times. Eventually he flew her out to the US and moved her in, via various legal processes that are far beyond me. He spent a decent amount of money doing all of this crap, but he never gave me any precise figures when I asked him.They immediately began working on their wedding and her citizenship (or her permanent residency status, not sure which).
She was, of course, super beautiful, very sweet, very traditional, and appeared to be the perfect 1950s housewife-slave James had always wanted. Her English was pretty bad, but she was able to communicate with English speakers well enough. She was Russian, so there was drama in their relationship (Russian women are high-drama, which is one of the reasons I stopped dating them a few years ago), but James, being an Alpha 1.0 and thus not considering happiness as his highest priority, didn’t consider this a dealbreaker.
Everything was fine for about a year and a half(?), until one day James found messages on her phone communicating with another man. (As an Alpha Male 1.0, he compulsively checked her phone and Facebook semi-regularly.) Long story short, she had met this guy through some of her new American friends and was seeing him on the side, though I don’t know if they were actually having sex. He wasn’t better looking than James, and he was a beta, but he was both older and had more money.
As you might imagine, nuclear explosions went off in their relationship. They even become physically violent with each other (ah, monogamy). After much arguing, screaming, fighting, and bullshit, they “tried to make it work” and continued their relationship.
A few months later she moved out, and moved right in with Mr. Rich Beta.
Later, he admitted that he should have listened to me. (Of course. How many times have I been told that?)
Yet, it didn’t quite sink in, because the last time I talked to him, he was on Asian dating sites looking to do this all over again, this time with a woman from SE Asia.
That won’t work either.
Here’s some proof...Story Two: The Converted Asian
This story is about me. As an Alpha Male 2.0, I’ve never looked for a traditional wife of course, but I have had several long-term nonmonogamous relationships with women over the years, some of them white Western girls and some of them not.
She was very Asian and not Western at all. She had a very thick accent, often made mistakes with her English, only ate the traditional Asian food of her homeland, only spent time with other Asians, and was 100% Asian in her life outlook, focusing on Asian priorities like college, marriage, and obeying her oppressive family.
The only reason she was seeing me was because when she was younger in the Philippines, she had fantasies about dating a big, masculine, white man with blue eyes. I’m a big, masculine, white man with blue eyes, so there you go.Despite this, she would regularly complain about how fat, lazy, and unhealthy Americans were. She was specifically disgusted about how Americans ate “nasty food” like bread, chips, cheese, cream, and “greasy meat,” rather than the “healthy food” (as she pronounced it, “hell-tee fut”) Asians like her ate, such as pure meat, fresh vegetables, and rice. The entire concept of eating something like pizza (“bread with slimy cheese and greasy meat on it”), or a hamburger, (“greasy meat, slimy cheese, and nasty shit like ketchup, mashed between two slabs of bread”) were abhorrent to her. Even watching other people eat bread or cheese made her visibly wince.
I thought it was pretty funny. None of this affected nor bothered me, since as a FB we never went out to eat. Much later, when she got older and I slowly upgraded her to MLTR, we would only go to Asian restaurants, which was cool with me. I love Asian food (because I love all food; it’s my last remaining problem).
Over the years, her attitude started to change. As I’ve talked about before, cultural Societal Programming is the strongest type of Societal Programming there is. If you live in the West, particularly in America, your entire view regarding things like marriage and food are going to change, and change radically. There’s no stopping it.
She started hanging out with white girls more often, white guys more often, and even some black guys too. One day, she told me she actually had some pizza(!) while at a friend’s house. I asked her if she liked it, and she said it was okay, but it was still a little “gross.”
More time went by. Soon, she started eating food like pizza, cheeseburgers, chips, cake, and cookies. She would see a big picture of a pizza and say in her accent, “Oh my gott, I want dat fuckin’ pit-za, dude.” (She had a foul mouth; it was hilarious.) She started drinking coffee and quickly became addicted, craving it and drinking it every morning before work. (Years later I would watch my own teenage daughter go through the same thing; become hopelessly addicted to the one hyper-addictive drug, besides alcohol, that is societally acceptable: coffee.)
Since many of her friends smoked weed, she started smoking it as well, and would semi-regularly smoke it when she hung out with them. This would just make her hungrier.
By the time we finally stopped seeing each other years later, she had gained over 35 pounds, possibly more. Her formerly perfect, shapely, model-like face became round and pudgy. Her formerly flat, washboard stomach now had multiple little rolls of fat that I would playfully pinch. She still had her Asian accent, but her speech patterns were littered with Western slang like “OMG,” and “Are you serious?” and “Whatever,” and “Hey, what’s up girl?” She still ate and enjoyed her Asian food, but most of her food was typical American crap.
She looked Asian, but she had become Western. Her inevitable transformation was complete.
It’s important for me to state that none of this bothered me, and none of this was the reason we stopped seeing each other. As usual with women I’ve dated, we’re still friends to this day and there are no hard feelings. (She's currently with an extreme beta and is engaged; again, she's following the typical, predictable pattern.) I also realize that over time, most women gain weight because that’s what Western women do.
I wasn't bothered by any of this, but I’m saying that this would have really bothered you if you’re one of these right-wing manosphere types looking for a Unicorn Woman from outside the West to be your perfect, loyal, traditional wife.
I’ll say it again: cultural Societal Programming is the strongest type of Societal Programming there is. The spilt second you bring your non-Western wife or girlfriend over to the West, her conversion to that same type of Western woman you’re fed up with will begin. In short order, she’ll be just as Western as any of the other white American/European girls in your city. You will have wasted your time, money, and emotions for no reason other than your own stupid, delusional, guy-Disney fantasies.
Unless you plan on locking up your non-Western wife in some remote cabin in Montana where she has no access to your culture (yes, some desperate men have actually suggested insanity like this), this conversion process is unavoidable.
When I talked about the only nine options men have as they age, I described one non-Western option that does work. That is, to marry a non-Western woman in her home country and then stay in her home country forever. Instead of bringing her back from Cambodia, you move to Cambodia and stay there with her for the rest of your life. That can work, and I’ve seen several men pull this off. As just one example, one of my proofreaders is a white Western guy who permanently moved to the Philippines and married a Filipino woman there. That was six years ago and they’re still going strong, very happy and very solid. I could give you many more examples.
But! Bringing that non-Western woman back to the West and expecting her to not “go Western” and eventually cheat on your and/or divorce your ass is stupid beyond belief. Don’t do it.
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Eugene 2017-01-05 05:21:01
Good post... Guess the question then is - if biology is biology, and you say the average woman gets bored of her monogamous man within 3 years, are you saying it takes longer if it's a more conservative women from another country because of different societal values, etc? Or are these guys you're referring to still doing the OLTR thing ?
Leo 2017-01-05 05:41:59
Look at forums and Redpill groups. They really believe that they will find a "good feminine girl" in Asia/Eastern Europe. Same people say "All Women Are Like That". I think all women are similar, Asian girls didn't come from Disney tales.
London PUA 2017-01-05 05:42:36
Caleb, your post made me think about this. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ts4sEBb2K3s Thanks for the article, and wishing you a great 2017
Eric 2017-01-05 05:42:57
Great read. Any guy that served in the US military and served overseas can tell you about the dangers of marrying a, "PX bride".
Calvinator 2017-01-05 05:45:30
"I described one non-Western option that does work. That is, to marry a non-Western woman in her home country and then stay in her home country forever" Yep, correct answer. Kill 2 birds too since you're leaving the States. Your description of Russian women is spot-on. I always say you have to date them before 29.. they hit the wall hard after that. In general they are too rough/dominant for my tastes too. And very much gold-diggers.
Neil 2017-01-05 06:02:26
I think it’s the same human nature that 95% of people, male and female exhibit, whereby the “grass is always greener on the other side of the fence” and it’s a massive validation to be dating someone a lot more attractive, younger than yourself. I’ve lost count of the number of media stories I’ve read where some older guy goes to Thailand or a divorced woman goes to Gambia on holiday. They meet some 22 year old, fool around, bring them back to the West, set them up at home, give them money, get them residence only for them to vanish a couple of months later and then the person flies back to their country or hires a PI to find out what happened to them and discovers their living with an existing long term partner. The thing that makes me laugh is that each time the person will say the same thing at the end of the story when they’re asked if they thought, before they started dating, if that person was only using them? “Well yes, but in this case, I thought he/she really loved me!?..”. People are happy to delude themselves that things are fine against overwhelming evidence, if there’s even a tiny chance of it being true.
JB 2017-01-05 06:56:57
Fortunately, as a young man I am perfectly fine being with only MLTRs and FBs, and even the thought of a live-in OLTR is currently making me cringe (I have had live-in monogamous girlfriends before). However, this article confirms what I've been thinking since I started looking into the manosphere / red pill gaming: Monogamous marriage never works. Long-lasting monogamous relationship ALWAYS end up "sour". At least for people <60 years of age. Now I certainly understand how men, when they get older, would think that getting a hot, young wife who obeyed their Disney fantasies of complete devotion, both emotionally and sexually, would give them the best golden years. And hey, if we lived in the perfect world, this would surely be the case. However, what they are not considering is that she, too, is young and thus not capable of long-lasting monogamous relationships. However, this talk of going to foreign supressed countries (shitholes) in order to catch that young sexually repressed, filled-to-the-brim-with-religious-and-cultural-SP wife, seems like the good old pissing-your-pants-because-you-feel-cold-solution. Despite your western wealth, you will still live in a corrupt, supressed shithole of a country, and you will most likely always have to live in fear that suddenly the supressors confiscate your wealth (because of communistic ideals, foreign hate or whatever). It's a bad solution. Your wife will have tremendeous amounts of SP that you will never get out of her, you will have drama because of cultural and religious differences, you will have to support her whole family and participate in all the events of her 200+ family members (who love to have family gatherings for any event whatsoever). If you seriously think that moving to a corrupt country with ideals that are compretely against everything you believe in, to marry a girl who you have nothing in common with, simply because you want a monogamous marriage, you are delusional and should take a good, long stare in the mirror with regards to your view of reality.
ytlk 2017-01-05 07:19:40
Being a more right-wing guy and a semi-regular manosphere reader, he quickly got tired of “white women” or “Western women” who were all “bitches,” “not respectful,” and “not loyal.”There is something (quite off-topic, I admit) I don't know if you have ever written about on this blog. Slut-shaming on the part of the right-leaning manosphere. I think it's silly at best. You (I mean they) spend years complaining about the ASD and then you do your part to reinforce it?! I loathe ASD. It's one of the more boring, tedious, obnoxious, irksome things you have to deal every time with women. It makes them play the fool in a very... silly way. Therefore I hate slut-shaming. Can't understand the man-right-o-sphere on this point (actually, I can: they want "sluts" to fuck about, and the Unicorn for blessed ageless marriage, in other words real, really annoying patriarchy). Plus, it gives their psyche much stress. You see these people engaged in a war with their own being all the time. Today they grab your prick, tomorrow they'll hate themselves when they remember (and hate you if you remind them). It's cruel to feed this "slut bashing".
become hopelessly addicted to the one hyper-addictive drug, besides alcohol, that is societally acceptable: coffee.)Ah, why leave addiction to power (over the others) out? And there's addiction to obedience too. I'd say there are 4 socially accepted addictions.
I’ll say it again: cultural Societal Programming is the strongest type of Societal Programming there is. The spilt second you bring your non-Western wife or girlfriend over to the West, her conversion to that same type of Western woman you’re fed up with will begin. In short order, she’ll be just as Western as any of the other white American/European girls in your city.OK. If you believe this 100%, you should think there can be 0% problems with "multiculturalism" (race-mixing), but it doesn't look like that's your mind about the issue. Or maybe the problems come only from the men, while women alone would be integrated easy? This could be the truth here.
prepped 2017-01-05 07:43:59
Gil Galad 2017-01-05 07:46:39
“Oh my gott, I want dat fuckin’ pit-za, dude.” (She had a foul mouth; it was hilarious.)Haha, that must be the chick who tried to explain to BD how to wash dishes by saying "You put water, bitch!" That anecdote was hilarious.
you will have drama because of cultural and religious differencesNot only do I agree with this, but I agree with it as a secular, westernized guy coming from a religious culture. There is virtually zero chance of me having a serious relationship with a girl from my home country; I've had enough of dealing with the religious SP that permeates literally everything. I might however get it on with a chick who has *also* abandoned her religious background, like me. Too bad that third-world girls who go secular tend to immediately dive into another dogma like communism; but there are nice exceptions. As for russian gold diggers, and without meaning to generalize, I think the most honest way to bang them in a zero-drama way is to just go for the escorts. It's more to the point and I'd be fine with it since "whore" is absolutely not pejorative in my book; girls who fuck for free are just better, that's all.
MoChnk 2017-01-05 08:03:48
As usual with women I’ve dated, we’re still friends to this day and there are no hard feelings.What do you mean by that? What's your definition of that friendship? You always say when a woman LSNFTEs you that you go radio-silent for a few months without any contact whatsoever. "We're still friends" sounds like you're talking on a (semi-)regular basis. If that's the case, then in which cases do you stay in touch and when do you go radio-silent?
KR 2017-01-05 08:47:53
Got in touch with a 30-year old Russian woman. She's looks good but not like any supermodel or anything. We like each other, she wants to spend money to fly to me (western Europe), so I do not pay her a thing at this point. At the moment she doesn't even know if she ever wants to move to a different country but she indeed looks sincere, we have skyped daily for the past 2,5 months ... just a great girl. Anyways my question: Do Russian women (30+) still transform into Western women if they live with you ? Personally I think it would take a much longer time compared to 19 year olds....
POB 2017-01-05 09:08:14
This kind of relationship would last anywhere from six months to two or three years, at which point there would be a huge, dramatic break up with lots of drama and chaos. Then he’d brag about how “pumped he was to be single again,” bang a bunch of new girls, find a new one he liked, get oneitis, get monogamous, and repeat the entire process all over again.This is the standard M.O. of almost all my male friends (grab popcorn).
I’ll say it again: cultural Societal Programming is the strongest type of Societal Programming there is.Nothing to add here...amen. I also have a thing for Asians. Thing is they usually leave me wayyy sooner than white girls, even when born here (guess cultural upbring in tight families is a bitch too). Though most of them stay long enough to fulfill their fantasies of banging a big muscular dude (me). Once they figure me out, they move on to one of their orbiters who's already holding a white rose bouquet (mostly a skinny "neutral white" with a corporate job or some random asian dude with a cute face). P.S. - they also take longer to come back once boredom kicks in P.S.2 - very kinky when horny
hilsey 2017-01-05 09:17:56
@MoChnk I can't speak for BD but I'm “still friends“ with people I haven't spoken to in *years*--plus there's Facebook and women will give you a good idea what's going on in their lives just skimming through their page.
johnnybegood 2017-01-05 09:27:01
Ha. I sometimes disagree with you BD, but this article is pretty spot on. I've met (and briefly dated) a few Russians both in the States and in Europe. Legit Russians, even one from far East Russia, which I think is almost a complete mystery culturally. They are not exactly a monolith, as I always say, they be quite introverted/ not-gold-digging/ not obsessed with hyper-masculinity (as is the stereotype, I think). But yeah they adapt to local culture quite rapidly, as everyone sort of does over the years. By the way, I'm American but agree with your Philipino woman. The food we eat here >IS< absolutely disgusting, but I know that wasn't your point. I was reading a long-life longevity diet book, and it was talking about Okinawa, Japan --- which has a very high percentage of centurians (100+ year olds). Their diet in the 1910s - 1940s was pretty damn healthy, consisting mostly of rice, fish, Japanese sweet potatoes, and other staples. Post WW2, Western American diet fuckery was introducted, of course. Cheap beef. A shit ton of beef. (Americans eat more meat, especially red meat, than pretty much any other country on Earth). Fast food. Other American crap. Guess what happened? Well, health and medical problems and heart disease went up in Okinawa and is correlated generationally.
Eddie 2017-01-05 09:48:48
BD, besides Cultural and Religious, what are the other types of Societal Programming... and is there a hierarchy? Yea, I read about this on other blogs... about guys going overseas to get laid...they brag about how easy it is to get laid because they are white and the girls over there love white skin. Then, in other posts they complain that all American girls are "fat, stupid, sluts." or how they can't find a wholesome American girlfriend. It's quite confusing. Aren't these guys just losers? If you're a Beta here, you're be a Beta there...even though it seems like they are having more success with women overseas, at the end of the day...they're still be Beta, with all the drama.
Neil 2017-01-05 10:14:13
@Eddie These guys lack the required social skills to appeal to women of their own country & go abroad and get laid in South East Asia & then come back home and find they still can't get attractive girls. Rather than look to improve themselves, it's easier to bitch about how all girls in their country are fat drunk sluts, to convince themselves that it can't possibly be them who have a problem (yeah right!?..).
Anton 2017-01-05 11:27:46
Hey Caleb, With your friend (or anyone else who married a foreign woman, and stayed there), did he ever periodically travel to the United States with his wife, or was even that a no-no for the chemistry? The idea of relocating isn't too harsh, but the idea of getting family who hate travel and have no passports to visit her instead is going to be a major complication if the whole 'staying' thing had to be purist. I felt this article broke away from otherwise very similar 'manosphere' posts about this topic, because you provide direct evidence from your life, and specific details that went wrong -- great writing.
Eddie 2017-01-05 12:15:50
@ Neil... I get what you're saying but I should of made myself more clear... their argument is that the entire culture has gone to shits...which coincides with what BD is talking about (Societal Programming). Our culture values and promotes narcissism, greed, slutty behavior, single motherhood (especially in the Black community), feminism, false rape, emasculation/effemination, abortion, date rape, divorce rape, out of shape/overweight druggies/pill poppers and mental illness, etc... so it's more than they can't get laid, they're afraid to even try. Overseas, the old school values of family first, respect for elders, love, dating and relationship and gender roles are still intact. That "Game" isn't necessary because the girls respect you as a gentleman and aren't playing Games like the ones in which American girls are just trying to exploit you for the sole purpose of extracting money and resources from you, thus the high divorce rate initiated by women to steal resources from men through alimony and child support. The guys feel more valued and respected as a man because of their nice guy persona (meaning they don't have to act like a thug or bad boy to attract a girl), and family first values. At least, that's what they explained to me when I engaged them online about why they travel.. the getting laid was just a part of the dating process, as BD described above.
Eddie 2017-01-05 12:28:11
@ Neil…I might add it's not just South East Asia but also Eastern Europe (which is more popular and more preferred).
Professor 2017-01-05 12:42:27
I can tell you having lived in Thailand for 15 years as a matter of fact a high number of marriages between western men and Thai women fail for the simple reason that the unicorn doesn't exist. Sure she may seem perfect for the first little while but after you've been around for a while you discover she's not what she seemed to be more often than not. Especially if you're a westerner she's probably into your money and elevating her family status. You will resent her and wish you hooked up with a western woman. Seriously. Many pull it off with an Asian woman. But don't think for a moment that even living in her country she won't cheat. Or you won't.
Eddie 2017-01-05 12:56:28
@ Professor... "Especially if you’re a westerner she’s probably into your money and elevating her family status. You will resent her and wish you hooked up with a western woman. Seriously."Hypergamy is a universal trait shared by all women. Marriage is a financial and status come-up for all women, the stats bear that out...what woman isn't into your money, what woman isn't trying to improve her life status through a relationship with a man? The biggest difference is that western women divorce rape men so badly they end up broke, depressed and in many cases incarcerated (due to child support).
Blackdragon 2017-01-05 13:24:31
if biology is biology, and you say the average woman gets bored of her monogamous man within 3 years, are you saying it takes longer if it’s a more conservative women from another country because of different societal values, etc?Not really. I've seen no radical difference (anecdotally anyway). Even if there was, it would be irrelevant. So she dumps you after 7 years instead of 3 years... how is this a victory for the right-wing manosphere guy looking to settle down and be married forever?
Or are these guys you’re referring to still doing the OLTR thing ?No, these guys are monogamous or "monogamous" (meaning they promise and expect monogamy but usually cheat, and eventually get caught.)
Caleb, your post made me think about this.Yes, I actually was thinking about that exact Eddie Murphy routine when I wrote this. Shit guys, if Eddie Murphy knew about this stuff 30 years ago, why is it so hard for men today to acknowledge it?
Your description of Russian women is spot-on. I always say you have to date them before 29.. they hit the wall hard after that.Russian women living in the West, of ALL ages, have much higher ASD, more Dominant tendencies, and higher drama than non-Russian white women. 29 has nothing to do with it in my experience.
I’ve lost count of the number of media stories I’ve read where some older guy goes to Thailand or a divorced woman goes to Gambia on holiday. They meet some 22 year old, fool around, bring them back to the West, set them up at home, give them money, get them residence only for them to vanish a couple of months later and then the person flies back to their country or hires a PI to find out what happened to them and discovers their living with an existing long term partner.Yep. It's stupid.
Despite your western wealth, you will still live in a corrupt, supressed shithole of a country, and you will most likely always have to live in fear that suddenly the supressors confiscate your wealth (because of communistic ideals, foreign hate or whatever). It’s a bad solution.Ah, but that's where Five Flags comes in. Under Five Flags you're protected from that crap.
There is something (quite off-topic, I admit) I don’t know if you have ever written about on this blog. Slut-shaming on the part of the right-leaning manosphere.I covered that here: https://blackdragonblog.com/2015/06/08/slut-shaming-revisited/ https://blackdragonblog.com/2012/12/23/slut-shaming-how-society-justifies-it-incorrectly/
OK. If you believe this 100%, you should think there can be 0% problems with “multiculturalism” (race-mixing), but it doesn’t look like that’s your mind about the issue.That's a good point. When I say she'll be "Western," she'll be engage in behaviors that most Western wives will exhibit. She never transform into a 100% Western girl. Neither of the women I talked about above ever went 100% Western, but they became plenty Western enough to act like a Western wife/girlfriend. Like most immigrants, they do it "salad bar style," taking the parts of the West they like (I can divorce my asshole husband whenever I want!), but keep the parts of their homelands they like (socialism, family drama, etc).
Haha, that must be the chick who tried to explain to BD how to wash dishes by saying “You put water, bitch!” That anecdote was hilarious.Yep. Same girl.
What do you mean by that? What’s your definition of that friendship? You always say when a woman LSNFTEs you that you go radio-silent for a few months without any contact whatsoever.Yes, but I've been broken up with her for many, many years now, not just a few months. And I have no intention of hooking up with her again, since now that I have an OLTR I don't think it would be appropriate to hook up with an ex who was "serious" at one point; but that's just my opinion, not a rule.
“We’re still friends” sounds like you’re talking on a (semi-)regular basis.We text occasionally and she's still on my FB friends list, though we haven't texted in many months.
If that’s the case, then in which cases do you stay in touch and when do you go radio-silent?You go radio silent when they dump you, and to so for at least four months. Then try to fuck her again. (Yes, I did that with HBM years ago, and yes, it worked, as it always does. That was a long time ago though.) Once it's been years since you've seen each other, you can more or less do whatever you want (as long as you're not in friend zone!!!), based on your objectives.
Do Russian women (30+) still transform into Western women if they live with you ?Yes, and... https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl/
Personally I think it would take a much longer time compared to 19 year olds….Again, even if you're right, so what? Do you consider it a win if she dumps your ass and moves out at 5 or 6 years instead of 2 or 3?
I also have a thing for Asians.I only like Asians when they actually have big tits and asses, and they usually don't. So the Asian thing for me is always a needle in a haystack thing. (I have no Asians on rotation right now.)
BD, besides Cultural and Religious, what are the other types of Societal Programming… and is there a hierarchy?Per Chapter Three in my book: Parental/Upbringing SP Educational SP Cultural SP Religious SP Hollywood / News Media SP Political SP Social Circle SP That's not a hierarchy. The strongest one by far is Cultural SP. The rest are stronger or weaker based on the individual and the intensity varies greatly. (For example, some guys have MASSIVE Religious SP, other guys have literally none.)
Yea, I read about this on other blogs… about guys going overseas to get laid…they brag about how easy it is to get laid because they are white and the girls over there love white skin. Then, in other posts they complain that all American girls are “fat, stupid, sluts.” or how they can’t find a wholesome American girlfriend. It’s quite confusing. Aren’t these guys just losers?Not necessarily. I have no objection to going to another country in order to get laid. It's not my thing, but that can work for a lot of guys and many men enjoy it. As I always say, as long as you aren't lying to anyone and aren't spending a lot of money, how you get laid isn't very relevant (at least to me). However! I have a huge objection to going to another country in order to find a forever wife. That's just stupid.
With your friend (or anyone else who married a foreign woman, and stayed there), did he ever periodically travel to the United States with his wife, or was even that a no-no for the chemistryI don't have have those details but I don't think so. If he reads these comments he's welcome to chime in.
The idea of relocating isn’t too harsh, but the idea of getting family who hate travel and have no passports to visit her instead is going to be a major complication if the whole ‘staying’ thing had to be purist.He has said that he's sad his wife can't meet his family. So yeah, that's a problem for guys who relocate and who still have close family back home (unless they have higher incomes). As in all things, there are pros and cons to every major decision you make.
I felt this article broke away from otherwise very similar ‘manosphere’ posts about this topic, because you provide direct evidence from your life, and specific details that went wrong — great writing.Thanks. That's why I always try to do here. Guy-Disney is too rampant in the manosphere. We need to get back to the facts.
Many pull it off with an Asian woman. But don’t think for a moment that even living in her country she won’t cheat. Or you won’t.Good point. Long-term monogamy doesn't work no matter what country you're in. Asian women, Russian women, Eastern European women, whatever, they're still human beings. So are you.
K 2017-01-05 14:08:39
Overseas, the old school values of family first, respect for elders, love, dating and relationship and gender roles are still intact.I see the reason for the oversimplification ("overseas"), would only like to point out that strong family values, respect for elders and for your partner have zero to do with traditional gender roles.
UKRob 2017-01-05 14:24:09
Russian women high drama !? I wish you'd told me that 20 years ago BD I wouldn't have married the bitch. Still, the sex was good, and I got a son out of it who's not turned out too badly. We divorced years go but still see each other from time to time. She's got used to all the western bad culinary habits as well. Her ass is now three times the size of the one that I married and she's gone pear shaped and into terminal decline. What pisses me off is that she's been here half of her life and still has no interest in integrating into British society. She should be fully anglicised by now but she still speaks Russian, watches Russian television, and jabbers away with her Russian mates. My advice for anyone thinking of going abroad, hooking up with a fit young filly, and bringing her back to the West with a view to marrying her - don't ! There are just too many differences that you're just never going to be able to iron out.
Dingus 2017-01-05 14:40:04
As a Russian born immigrant to the US I will readily confirm that Russians be crazy, especially the men. But especially the women. In the vast majority of cases Ive personally seen, the Russian women fall on the wrong end of the hot/crazy ratio. There's just this air of constant despair in Russia that seeps right into the bone. I can't really say I blame them either, if some horny sap was my easy ticket out, I would have jumped on that in a second. Gold digging isn't just fun and games there, it's how you put food on the table. PS: don't' move to Russia, even the best wife in the world isn't worth it. BD: Insightful article, thank you. I would be really interested to read your thoughts on something like the FLDS, or some other traditionally polygamous culture. Granted, at least in the FLDS, it's definitely more in line with alpha 1.0 mode of thinking.
Max 2017-01-05 15:00:45
Just to play devil's advocate here, if her target was living a decent life she knew she couldn't have back home, why not stick to it ? 1. EE or Russian women take more shit in their home countries living with their nationals, so they should have some resilience built in that American women. 2. I see same home country marriages working out better. (I mean a Russian immigrant here married to another Russian immigrant).
Gil Galad 2017-01-05 15:33:46
don’t’ move to Russia, even the best wife in the world isn’t worth it@Dingus: could you elaborate ? I keep hearing bad stuff about Russia, but I can't shake the picture of me spending some years there. Usually I cross it out with the explanation "bad economy and if there's a war, Russia is probably gonna be involved", but maybe you can sway me more effectively. My vision of Russia is way too romanticized, I fear - goes back as early as childhood when I read Michael Strogoff and then Dostoevsky.
Anon. 2017-01-05 16:23:41
That “Game” isn’t necessary because the girls respect you as a gentleman and aren’t playing Games like the ones in which American girls are just trying to exploit you for the sole purpose of extracting money and resources from youThat sounds too misogynistic. Wouldn't it be much more correct to say: "A third world woman can't achieve independence and will cling to her husband, even if she comes to resent him, while an American girl will dump one easily; both will initially love the man and subsequently change their feelings towards him, it's just the objective reality around them that will cause the new feelings to manifest in different ways"? Here in Ukraine monogamy works no better than anywhere else, though couples seem to stay together when they really shouldn't, such is local SP. Also being a Ukrainian, I can definitively answer the question about Russia. The core problem is a huge gap between the ruling class and the working class, where the middle class should have been. Historically, this can be traced from the abolition of serfdom which happened as late as 1861, to the Bolsheviks taking place of the ruling class and exterminating the middle class, which wasn't large to begin with, to the huge income disparity of the 1990s, to the kleptocracy of the 2000s (by Bill Browder's estimate, Vladimir Putin has embezzled so much that Bill Gates is actually #2). Psychologically, the above manifests in anyone who has any kind of power no longer seeing other people as equal to himself. I'm not even talking about torture in prisons and such; for example, whoever can afford a car will park it in places most inconvenient to everyone else while someone who can't afford one dreams about obtaining it in order for the other plebeians to know their place. This is the main thing marring life in ex-USSR countries.
Dingus 2017-01-05 16:40:36
@Gil Galad - To elaborate: what Anon said about wealth gap and the corresponding cynicism is certainly correct. For me it wasn't even that though, it's the ubiquitous corruption, lack of opportunity, petty crime etc. etc. For example: a cop can legitimately pull you over for having a dirty car, which is when you're expected to bribe him rather than pay the (more expensive) ticket. Imagine having ten times the DMV style administrative systems with the added bonus of having to bribe your way to having your forms actually looked at. And god forbid you made a typo somewhere. The everpresent chronic alcoholism isn't cheery either. It felt to me like I was living in a rotting corpse of a nation rather than a real country. Its just a very depressing place in a multitude of ways. To wit: http://www.suicide.org/international-suicide-statistics.html If you value things like human dignity, honesty and optimism choosing to live in Russia is like a guy who loves the sun moving to Seattle. Having said all that, there are aspects of Russia I miss tremendously. The phenomenally beautiful nature that in vast swaths of the country is entirely untouched is certainly one. Culturally as well, despite the economic malaise Russian humour and forthrightness is something I miss in the western world. TLDR: it might be an interesting place to visit (assuming it's still safe to do so with the recent political climate). But I personally believe with complete certainty that living there would wear down any sane individual.
Blackdragon 2017-01-05 17:01:05
There’s just this air of constant despair in Russia that seeps right into the bone.Russian women are beautiful and intelligent, but yes, there's a darkness in Russians, that they almost can't avoid.
I would be really interested to read your thoughts on something like the FLDS, or some other traditionally polygamous culture. Granted, at least in the FLDS, it’s definitely more in line with alpha 1.0 mode of thinking.I have an upcoming post that touches on this. You're simply talking about polygamy, which is a very high-drama, Alpha 1.0 style of nonmonogamy.
Just to play devil’s advocate here, if her target was living a decent life she knew she couldn’t have back home, why not stick to it ?You're applying logic to women.
KryptoKate 2017-01-05 17:16:03
The irony is an American guy imagining that he's going to get a "nice", traditional girl from an impoverished country...when any woman that is actively looking to ditch her own family, community, language, culture, and everything she's ever known to secure access to a western wallet is by definition an expert Machiavellian. This is a self-selected type of woman who is clearly more interested in status and material things than she is in "traditional" things like her culture. So literally he is getting the opposite of what he is aiming for because those women will also have zero guilt about turning against him the second she suspects there's a better deal available to her. That said, as long as she believes that the dude is her meal-ticket, she will probably be a flawless actress. Where I went to college most of the students were rich white kids, but there were a few Eastern European immigrants and refugees in that town, and holy shit, I was amazed at the level of blatant, RUTHLESS gold-digging. It would've never occurred to the affluent American girls to gold-dig...but that's also because it would've never occurred to them that they needed to, and they already had their parents paying their bills. So those Eastern European immigrants were the first time in my life I'd ever seen or heard of gold-digging behavior and it was pretty extreme.Those chicks were like the most hard-nosed, killer captain-of-industry capitalists, with their affection as the product. The difference in attitude regarding "giving away" one's affection for free is just entirely different between someone who grows up in a financially desperate situation versus someone who grows up with a presumption of material security. They are entirely different worldviews. The Eastern European chicks were so hardcore that it sort of scared me and though I didn't admire it, I was also somewhat impressed in a way. They were NEVER nice to me, they were cold as ice (because I didn't have anything they wanted), but I saw them turn the charm tap on and off with guys depending on whether they though there was anything to extract and...damn. It's amazing we pay actors in Hollywood when there are millions of people who are blowing away their best performances on a daily basis. As far as marriage, I work with two guys who married women from other countries and it has been fairly economically devastating for both, one who is now divorced and one who isn't. But they did both marry women above their league, looks-wise. And their wives were way more subservient with making them sandwiches and stuff like that. The first is still married to his Asian wife but he is always broke, despite making a lot of money, because she is constantly sending it to her impoverished relatives/cousins/aunts/uncles and spending his money and racking up his credit cards behind his back and she also has a gambling addiction. She has almost bankrupted him several times. He's afraid to divorce her because they have kids and he knows she would go totally scorched-earth and take him for everything. I know her and she is easily the most materialistic, status-oriented woman I've ever met in my life. Another guy married a woman from Mexico and is now divorced. She cheated on him after they had their first kid, when she decided she didn't really like being a mom and wife and started going out partying every night. Then she threatened to take his kid to Mexico and never let him see his child again unless he basically agreed to give her everything. She got the house, half his 401k, and years of alimony and is just crawling his way out of the financial hole now, 8 years later. Amazingly, he is not bitter, though he will tell anyone that it was a huge mistake. Poor people from poor countries usually have large families and you take on the whole family when you take on the person. Unless you want to be sponsoring an impoverished family -- which is what you'll be doing -- it's a dumb idea for more than a fling. Might as well use escorts and send your money to poor people from third world countries via a real charity...at least then you'd get the tax deduction.
Gil Galad 2017-01-05 17:24:57
@Anon and Dingus: thanks a lot for the feedback. With that in mind, I guess I'll do one or more brief visits to Russia at some point (and/or Ukraine), but not live there.
Gil Galad 2017-01-05 17:44:10
@Kate: you know how before I read your comment about EE chicks I had a romanticized view of Russia ? Forget it lol. You cured me, in the girl department anyway. You should not be left around kids talking about Santa Claus - and more seriously, someone like Roosh really should read that comment. That'd set him straight ("the mother of my kids must be a virgin who believes in God" smfh)
Days of Broken Arrows 2017-01-05 19:06:14
Insightful post. I've come to the conclusion that the best odds for a good marriage are when you get in on the ground level, or close to it with women. Meaning, grab the good ones in high school or early on in college before their numbers count goes up. This can include foreign girls in college. I knew a bunch and virtually all of them got married and stayed married. But bringing a woman over from anywhere and setting her up in a home is a recipe for disaster. People resent acts of generosity to that degree because it tells them they're the ones beholden and therefore inferior to the one doing the giving. The same feelings of guilt, inferiority, and resentment men get when they're being given something for nothing women get as well. It's just that we're taught not to think this because of the all the romantic comedies and TV shows that have elements of this in it. A little generosity goes a long way -- and that doesn't just go for romantic relationships but all relationships. Try and "save" someone and you'll almost inevitably wind up with the person despising you for one reason or another.
KryptoKate 2017-01-05 20:49:18
@ Gil Well, not going to lie, the EE girls are very sexy. And I love their accent. If I was a guy I would totally go for that sexy spy-movie accent. I'm just saying, don't get serious if you don't want to be with a hardcore Machiavellian. Tough circumstances produce tough people, who are much more comfortable exploiting others than materially-secure people generally are. Most of the EE immigrant girls hung out with blatant mafia type thug men... I would agree with Broken Arrow that in general, being the one who is endowing someone with charity and significant financial help doesn't work out long term and set up mutual resentment, distrust, and lack of appreciation.
Eddie 2017-01-05 20:52:17
@Anon "That sounds too misogynistic. Wouldn’t it be much more correct to say: “A third world woman can’t achieve independence and will cling to her husband"Hey, perhaps you're right...personally, it doesn't matter to me, I'm neutral in all this. I was only serving in the capacity as a reporter...reporting on what these other guys stated to me as their real reasons for going over there... these girls had more traditional values due to religious upbringings and adherence to traditional family roles...many of the men felt feminism is the root cause of the destruction of the American family...demonizing the men...but I'm sure western women feel empowered by feminism. I'm not here to argue but the results don't lie. Western men and women relationships were a lot more loving and cooperative until feminism came along and poisoned women's attitude against their men. You and others may or may not like that statement.. but can you then explain why men had to form things like Game, MGTOW, Men Rights, etc.... I found that overall men love women..they are willing to beg, borrow, lie, cheat, steal, fight and go to war and die for women... what changed? So maybe out of frustration or desperation...they go overseas in hopes of finding true love, something they've come to realize they can no longer find here because the vast majority (I didn't say all) of women are psychologically and emotionally damaged beyond repair. Bottom line is men don't want to be alone, they want to be in a loving, caring relationship. Men have to fight and compete all day, in the world to be successful...they don't want to come home and have to compete with their woman too... unfortunately feminism has conditioned women to compete with their man vs cooperate with him..which leads to an adversarial relationship that no man can survive. This is what I have gathered over many chats with many different guys... I'm not here to call it right or wrong, good or bad.... but something I do know... men lie, women lie...results don't.
Lapochka 2017-01-05 23:12:19
My wife is Russian, been married for over 10 years and have 2 kids, but there have been many times I regretted it, while other times I have been glad I did. No matter who you marry, there will be good times and bad, but generally, I would say Russian women are high maintenance and hypochondriacs (like Russians in general), but conversely more beauty-focussed and more "traditional". Some general tips for western guys thinking about marrying a Russian: 1. Don't think they will be impressed by your US or UK passport and that they all want to get citizenship in your wonderful homeland. Maybe that was the case 15-20 years ago, but not now. Russia and eastern Europe in general has modern shopping malls, improving infrastructure and much better healthcare than almost every western country. 2. Your competition is very real and comes in the form of well groomed, well funded local guys. I live in Riga (Latvia) and the amount of luxury cars on the roads being driven by cool guys with trophy girlfriends / wives sitting beside them is jaw-dropping. Russians in particular now form a huge slice of the nouveau riche here in eastern Europe, and they can offer these leggy blonde stunners huge homes, regular holidays in exotic locales, fine dining and clothes and cosmetic spends that would make your eyes water. 3. Many of them now regard the West in general as "New Sodom", a cesspit of moral decrepitude. There is a very robust anti-Western sentiment being sponsored by the Kremlin and helped by the reality in the West; on the other hand, the natives of Poland, the Baltic states, and so on, are terrified of Putin's Russia and may be more tolerant of the West's excesses for that reason. 4. That said, the Balts are a very cold and uninviting people, far more so than the Russians. Don't think they will feel warm towards you just because your country's troops are defending their borders with Russia. And many of them think western men are sex tourists per se. 5. Learn Russian to minimise the alienation in your relationship. I'm not yet fluent, but can get by, especially in interactions with my "difficult" mother-in-law. 6. Height is less of a factor for many eastern European women than in the short-guy-hating West, judging by the amount of hotties strolling around with shorter guys. Overall, then, it's not the panacea some might imagine and it's not for everyone. It boils down to the individuals involved, ultimately.
Eddie 2017-01-05 23:26:27
Man, all the answers are right in your book. Part II: Chapter 3: Sources of SP 1. Your Upbringing 2. Your Education 3. Your Country and Culture 4. Religion 5. Hollywood and the News Media 6. Politics 7. Your Social Circle and Work Circle Man, I bought this book awhile back and have been meaning to read it...but got caught up in a lot of other stuff, like making money. OK, beginning tomorrow I'm going to add this book to my things that must get done list. I'll get this handled before the month is out. Thanks.
JB 2017-01-06 00:02:53
I’ve come to the conclusion that the best odds for a good marriage are when you get in on the ground level, or close to it with women. Meaning, grab the good ones in high school or early on in college before their numbers count goes up.Seems like typical slut shaming and SP to me. Your fairytale Alpha 1.0 monogamous relationship doesn't exist, no matter how good your "relationship skills" are. All the girls I know that have the same boyfriend since high school / beginning of university (e.g. now 5-7 years) and a "low count" are - you guessed it - all in miserable relationships where the boyfriend/husband has been completely betaized, they don't have (much) sex, drama is high, etc. So no, "high-quality" or "good" women that you've "grabbed in high school or early on in college" are not going to give you a succesful monogamous relationship / marriage. They're women, and thus they are biologically wired to get sexually bored with you eventually. And again, as mentioned again and again, Very Young Women (<23 years of age) are usually not capable of serious relationships. They will cheat, cause drama, change their mind (about everything), do drugs, get drunk to the point of passing out, make completely insane decisions, and so on and so on.. But sure, go find your Pure Young Wife™ who is Not Like The Rest™ and who will never divorce you because you are A Relationship Expert™ who Knows What He Is Doing™, and think back in 10 years about who you chose to completely screw yourself over when you knew the facts (87 % of all marriages end in cheating, divorce or very unhappy participants).
Eugene 2017-01-06 06:57:52
Even if there was, it would be irrelevant. So she dumps you after 7 years instead of 3 years… how is this a victory for the right-wing manosphere guy looking to settle down and be married forever?BD so I feel like I'm missing something... You said that moving permanently to and marrying in a different country is one option that does "work"m and just used one of your friends as an example that's 6 years in, happy and going strong. But at the same time you're saying.. how is it a victory if she's going to leave you anyway? (eventually). So does it actually work ...or is it just another eventual fail?
Chavel 2017-01-06 08:27:19
I can totally relate....I married a Filipina because I was interested in marrying a "Traditional" Catholic woman. I didn't give a fuck what she looked like or her background, just that she was a good Catholic Girl. My best friend who served in the Marine's in PI told me Filipina's made the best wives and they were true Catholics. Up to that point I didn't ever think I'd marry, but once I decided I wanted children I sought the most perfect Catholic Woman I thought I could find based on what my Best Friend had told me. She turned out to be a fake Catholic, got westernized, and purposely emotionally harmed my son during the last 5 yrs of our marriage. She could be burning and I wouldn't piss on her to put out the fire. Why? Don't fuck with the children..Beat me, kick me, insult me, fuck around on me, come back pregnant, don't mean shit to me..I'll forgive you, let you go, and let it go..But don't fuck with the children. Been seeing evil since I was 9 yrs old, seen it up close growing up in Chicago, but tried to keep my faith. Seen even more evil as a police officer of 18 yrs. Ended up living with evil and yeah, I lost my marriage, but more than that, I lost my Faith....Fuck the opiate for the masses, fuck spirituality, fuck astrology, or any other hocus-pocus out there folks believe in....I believe in me, the goodness of other people, and their humanity, human frailty and all....Trust that more than some diety made by man to cling to out of fear of dying or worse, to subdue the masses.... Listen to BD don't marry a Foreign Chick.... Late, Chavel
James 2017-01-06 08:50:33
"I warned him that his plan wouldn’t work. He snorted and said I was no expert on marriage (despite the fact that I was married for nine years and he had never been married at all), and that while many of my concepts were accurate, I was oversimplifying things and was “not always right.”" Almost every conversation I've had with my alpha 1.0 friend ever is like this. Not about dating marriage mind you, just anything I really know about and he doesn't.
CrabRangoon 2017-01-06 09:09:39
@KryptoKate Ever watch the show 90 Day Fiance? It's about guys(and sometimes a girl) finding a spouse from overseas, often EE, Asia or Russia. It's a shit show to watch and pretty cringe inducing to see how dumb these people can be. I guess extreme loneliness can drive some to do pathetic things. The spouse to be is often blatantly gold digging but you know even the more subtle ones are up to no good. It's educational and a little sad.
Tug Speedman 2017-01-06 11:14:18
Finally a topic I'm kind of an expert at. As a former military man who spent some years overseas and traveled in general, here are some of my thoughts. I found the good looking foreign women that worked closely with Americans or worked with them were almost always looking for a beta. I never had a chance with them because they knew I just wanted to have fun, these women would go after the average looking beta who had never had good looking women come on to him, he falls in love quickly, asks her to marry him or move with him back to the states...mission accomplished. They may think that those women just wanted a gentleman, had a family first and old school upbringing, and that their beta tendencies finally payed off and they found the one girl that gets it. Nope. I saw this all too often. Now, these marriages may have lasted longer than most, but that's because a typical military guy moves around a shit ton, and so the foreign military wife doesn't have a chance to have a good social circle, but I could just see in their eyes how miserable some of them were, and I fucked a few of them too (was actually quite easy) I think Russian and Ukrainian women are the most beautiful in the world, but you seriously have to use extreme caution. When you meet some on vacation they will fuck your brains out, when you're dating them watch out. Do not spend money on them at all or they will recognize you as a mark and clean you out. Trust me, these women are very aware of their SMV, and they are very aware how hot they are. In order to keep one around for a while without spending money (I dated one for a little over a year when I moved to seattle) your SMV and looks must be equal or higher than hers (it'll play on her genetic breeding side of things) if not, she will recognize you as a beta mark and you'll be buying her shit from Tiffany''s within a month. BD said it best, if you want to date a woman from overseas, be living overseas when you do it, some of my most fun relationships were when I was overseas....but traveling to find one to bring back is extremely idiotic, as you've basically just tattooed "provider" on your forehead. You'll be the one paying to bring her back, you'll probably soon be convinced to fly her parents out to live in the states, you're going to think she's family oriented and old school so you won't get that prenup, she'll realize you're boring, cheat on you, divorce you, take half your shit, and then upgrade. You're basically going to spend all that money, and someone else will eventually reap those rewards.
John 2017-01-06 13:01:24
I live in Thailand and have done for over a decade. Married a local lass which was a complete disaster (but I think much of that was down to my extreme beta behavior). Ever since I stumbled upon BD which was right after my break up I have done my best to implement all the doctrines of this website here in the land of smiles. In a country where marriage is still sacred (even though everybody cheats), where a large dowry is still expected, money rules and all westerners here have given up the concept of having any game and just go pay for play in one form or other, I am actually holding my own and doing quite well. Not spending much money and being honest about my intentions. Actually the concept of having an FB is not lost on the locals. They even have an everyday word for it, 'Gik'. If you can be a Gik rather than a Fen (boyfriend) you get the sex without the hassle. The system works quite well. Also its not uncommon for the local girls to marry a westerner and still have their broke ass thai boyfriend on the side. Its kind of funny now I understand why thanks to BD. Anyway marriages between westerners and locals rarely work here, far too many cultural differences and unwillingness to adapt from both parties. Too many guys come here looking for little miss unicorn and the local girls sure as hell can put on a good act. I think the whole BD doctrine is as relevant here in the east as in the west, maybe even more so as women here really seem to respect a strong guy (of which there are few among westerners here). All I say is thank god for Black dragon showing me the light. Cheers
John 2017-01-06 13:38:56
I don't know much about Russian chicks but you should watch the movie Birthday Girl with Nicole Kidman if you get chance. Her speaking Russian is pretty damn good too.
Blackdragon 2017-01-06 14:40:11
I’ve come to the conclusion that the best odds for a good marriage are when you get in on the ground level, or close to it with women. Meaning, grab the good ones in high school or early on in college before their numbers count goes up.Incorrect. Your odds of divorce are far higher if you marry a teenager (anyone under age 23), not lower, regardless of her number of sexual partners.
This can include foreign girls in college. I knew a bunch and virtually all of them got married and stayed married.You don't know if they "stayed married" until they've been married to their husbands for at least 25 years. Too many men see marriages that have lasted about 4 or 5 years and then declare they "worked." Nope. Not even close. Not yet anyway.
Man, all the answers are right in your book.I know. 🙂 So many questions guys ask on my blog are answered, and answered in detail, in my book.
You said that moving permanently to and marrying in a different country is one option that does “work”m and just used one of your friends as an example that’s 6 years in, happy and going strong. But at the same time you’re saying.. how is it a victory if she’s going to leave you anyway? (eventually). So does it actually work …or is it just another eventual fail?Correct. A 6 year marriage as not a victory, as I just said above. That was just one guy I know as a quick example. I do know men who have been married for 15, 20, 25, and 30 years who have done this. I'm talking about white men who moved to SE Asia, or Mexico, or Central America who have married women down there. To be fair, I don't know a lot of men who have done this, since few men have the balls to move out of their country. But anecdotally, with the few men I've seen do it, the statistical odds of success seem a little higher than getting traditionally married to a woman while living in the West. Granted, "seem" does not mean "is," so I could be wrong. I wish there were real statistics we could analyze for this, but I don't know of any. Also, as another commenter stated above, even if you permanently move to the third world and get traditionally married over there, you and/or her will still cheat eventually. Long-term sexual monogamy doesn't work. I'm only talking here about long-term pair-bonding. Lastly, and the most important answer to your question, as I've said over and over again: There are no good options for men in the modern era to long-term pair-bond with a woman. None. They're all terrible. If you want to long-term pair-bond, you must choose the option that is least bad, but will still be very bad.
Almost every conversation I’ve had with my alpha 1.0 friend ever is like this. Not about dating marriage mind you, just anything I really know about and he doesn’t.Yes. Alpha Male 1.0s are, by far, the most stubborn type of man of the three types.
Ercis 2017-01-06 15:47:00
"Hey, I'm 30 and I just thought of this!" - average manosphere pua message board schmuck. "I only date virgins" "Sluts are gross!" "A man that is non-monogamous is a cuck!" All of these kids will get burned. Mail order brides are nothing new, but, these pua wanna be manosphere forum guys truly believe that women are different around the globe. Its not that these women become Westernized, its that women around the world are ALL THE SAME. Russian women are very savvy. I am sure many of these kids have been eaten alive so far, and we haven't heard much about it.
diggy 2017-01-06 17:55:28
Its not that these women become Westernized, its that women around the world are ALL THE SAME.Yeah, a lot of the MGTOW guys talk about hypergamy as an inherited genetic trait. I tend to agree and this is why its more female nature than being Westernized. Its just when they get here western culture plays right into their hypergamy... so its kinda both. Serious fuel on the fire.
Kurt 2017-01-06 18:12:38
Wendy Deng Just look her up, it's the perfect story that encapsulates everything BD's talking about.
Tom 2017-01-06 19:12:06
Hypergamy/female nature/AWALT Lets get back to the nature. You can escape the reality (being stubborn still looking for that unicorn woman to marry), but you can't ignore the consequences (getting burned emotionally, divorced, monetarily.) That's why as a 24yo havent-got-into-monogamy is glad to find out mgtow.
Just Curious 2017-01-06 20:28:04
"Lastly, and the most important answer to your question, as I’ve said over and over again: There are no good options for men in the modern era to long-term pair-bond with a woman. None. They’re all terrible. If you want to long-term pair-bond, you must choose the option that is least bad, but will still be very bad." Are you not entering a long-term pair-bond?
OldTimer 2017-01-06 21:27:54
BD, do you ever address long term monogamy and its likelihood of failure from a class angle? I believe Charles Murray said somewhere that the upper middle class continue to live in a 1950s style bubble where divorce rates resemble the patterns of that time period. I notice family structures are still very stable in Manhattan's upper middle class families, but it's anecdotal. As the victim of a recent disney fantasy implosion I can only say you were right and sometimes it feels like life is almost not worth living when a woman can never be truly trusted as a member of your family (this is where the pain really stems from as one needs family to help in their old age). As in you can never be truly close with someone beyond a parental figure (the despair that this realization causes is beyond words). There is something to having "warmth" in a household and it extends beyond the day to day nihilism of meaningless sport fucking, but unfortunately it sounds like its not something that's feasible. At least not anymore. $0.02 - OldTimer
Blackdragon 2017-01-06 21:55:51
Are you not entering a long-term pair-bond?Yep. I'm a human being over age 40, thus I desire this (as you probably will when you get to be my age). And I'm going to pay a price for it, because all options suck. I'm just choosing the least sucky one by being very methodical and careful about it.
BD, do you ever address long term monogamy and its likelihood of failure from a class angle?I've talked about divorce rates for higher income people, but beyond that, no.
I believe Charles Murray said somewhere that the upper middle class continue to live in a 1950s style bubble where divorce rates resemble the patterns of that time period.If he said it he's wrong. I'm upper middle class, as are most people I know, and they get divorced just as much as everyone else. If you're talking about the rich, that is different, yes.
I notice family structures are still very stable in Manhattan’s upper middle class families, but it’s anecdotal.I think you're mixing up "upper middle class" with "the rich" or accurately, "old money." In old money families, yes, the divorce rate is quite low, but the cheating is absolutely rampant.
As the victim of a recent disney fantasy implosion I can only say you were right and sometimes it feels like life is almost not worth living when a woman can never be truly trusted as a member of your familyYou're being extremely irrational and very silly. Snap the fuck out of it and get back to being a man, one who lives in the real world.
There is something to having “warmth” in a household and it extends beyond the day to day nihilism of meaningless sport fucking, but unfortunately it sounds like its not something that’s feasible.It is feasible. It's just not feasible for 45 years straight (unless you're very careful and reasonably lucky). You're falling into the manosphere trap of assuming there are only two options in life: a 45 year Disney relationship or "sport fucking." There are a massive amount of options besides this. I list them here and here and here.
Just Curious 2017-01-06 22:38:02
I would love to be your age ............ again. Wouldn't want to go any younger than forty but heck I would even take fifty if that was what was being offered.
Blackdragon 2017-01-07 01:26:47
I would love to be your age ………… again.Damn. Lots of old timers on the blog today!
Just Curious 2017-01-07 01:57:17
Relax, I bought your book. I even read it. Well thought out.
David 2017-01-07 08:21:12
I love latin american culture and am sick of american "culture." So my lifetime goal IS in fact to leave. Im 33, and every time I travel, I have an amazing fling with a girl much younger than me. Its almost a 100% chance. Latin america is a place where every american man should live for a short while, just to understand how gender roles were in the past. Its more than that. People used to be like that. Americans used to have tight knit families, best friends in siblings and cousins. Every american girl I meet hates her dad and rarely speaks to her family. You'd be crazy to think that woman would be a good spouse. I believe the same respect a woman has for her father, she will have for her man. So if you move her here, will it undo her lifelong perspective and respect for men? This article showed two negative examples. I agree american culture and feminism is infectious, but will it totally reverse a woman's outlook on men in a few years? I know two guys who brought back brides from latin america about ten years ago. They seem super happy. Remember, The man still has to be a man and keep things in line. Dont let her hang out with a bunch of bad influences. Dont spoil her or let her win when she tests the waters. Heres a funny story: I went on a date with a girl from TJ last week. She's 20. Her father actually walked her across the border to meet me! 2 hours in line! Turns out, she loves justin beiber, disney land, and shopping lol. In this case, she has about three years before she's full blown american woman.
OldTimer 2017-01-07 09:48:22
BD, I think we do have different cut offs for rich here and that's probably the source of the discrepancy. It's an unsettled topic in these parts of the blogosphere since rich in New York City means annual household income of $2M+ per year (if that). Even then, those people making $2M+ can't buy a real yacht or a private plane, so they'd argue they aren't rich, but very high upper middle class who have the potential to be rich some day if they get in on the right investments. The line between upper middle and rich is very thin here seeing as how $500K is barely enough to raise a family of 4 (wife + 2 kids) in the appropriate keeping up with the Joneses way (rent alone will run you $100-200K per year for a decent sized 3 bedroom apartment). Guess it depends on whether you believe in post 1980s child rearing that each kid should have their own room, heh. I'd almost wager to say there is either no such thing as upper middle class outside of NYC/San Francisco/LA/DC/maybe Chicago (I might have missed a city or two). It's just a reflection of how concentrated wealth has become due to monetary inflation in the imperial centers. Part of the problem is if you make $150k a year or less you can be upper middle class in most 2nd tier cities within the US, but come to a tier 1 city and you will struggle to pay for decent average priced meals on a longer term basis. Upper middle is also a culture on its own I'd say, which includes a consensus on certain elements of life. So people in that bracket who categorize themselves upper middle class will encounter tensions with the "real" upper middles, if you choose to go along with that definition (of course they will perceive it as rich peoples' snobbery). One thing I will tell you for sure is <$1M per year here is unarguably upper middle class (I mean unarguably in the sense that, anyone in NYC would not consider you rich with that income, not saying you can't argue against such definitions). Anyway it's irrelevant to this discussion (might make for a fun open thread/poll of your readers though). I will say, I don't observe much cheating, but that's a tough order to prove in either direction. My social intelligence isn't super high so I'd miss things you wouldn't, so it's hard to say. My parents would like to see me happy and for me to have a stable family life like I did/they did. I'm not really sure what to do anymore, sometimes it feels like those of us who live in either a fully red pilled or partially red pilled reality are stuck fighting the entire world. Both the left and the right. It's exhausting. Try telling someone you aren't getting married, but having kids. They will still view those children as illegitimate and the whole affair as scandalous. Just the ramblings of an adolescent mind stuck in a late 20's body.
KryptoKate 2017-01-07 14:39:40
@ Oldtimer You just answered your own question, upper middle class people don't get divorced because it would be too financially devastating. Most affluent people nowadays require two full time high earning professionals who put in long years of schooling and long hours. To maintain their homes in expensive areas with good schools and have enough to send their own kids to college etc requires that they stay together and pool their money. For the few where the wife doesn't work or has a low income, it would be even more financially devastating to split, and those guys usually work all the time and have no free time to get involved in affairs they probably just use escorts, you would never know. Lower and middle class people withhout any assets or the need to maintain living in a pricey zip code with good schools don't have the financial incentive to stay together, so nowadays most of the time, they don't. I work with upper middle class people and it's true they mostly stay married...Probably only about 20% divorce...but almost all of those guys would cheat on their wives if given an opportunity...but they mostly work every second of their waking time so they don't have much chance. Who knows what their wives are up to. For the ones who do divorce, it's financially devastating, there's no way to maintain two separate households at anywhere near the level they're used to. I'm glad I got divorced at the beginning of my career bc even though I paid alimony for a few years, at least I didn't yet have a 401k to split. If I had had to give away half my retirement savings, my head mightve exploded.
OldTimer 2017-01-07 17:31:47
KryptoKate, those are some good points you make.
Professor 2017-01-07 21:41:28
The first is still married to his Asian wife but he is always broke, despite making a lot of money, because she is constantly sending it to her impoverished relatives/cousins/aunts/uncles and spending his money and racking up his credit cards behind his back and she also has a gambling addiction. She has almost bankrupted him several times. He’s afraid to divorce her because they have kids and he knows she would go totally scorched-earth and take him for everything. I know her and she is easily the most materialistic, status-oriented woman I’ve ever met in my life.I hate to say this but she sounds absolutely, unapologetically Thai. And sounds even more likely he met her in a naughty establishment.
Joe K 2017-01-08 08:05:48
@BD "There are no good options for men in the modern era to long-term pair-bond with a woman. None. They’re all terrible. If you want to long-term pair-bond, you must choose the option that is least bad, but will still be very bad." Absolutely true. Man, some great comments here. Commenters are leaps and bounds ahead of those on Rollo's blog (still respect the hell outta Rollo) with their deluded blue pill lifestyles masked by red pill tough-guy keyboard jockeying. @Old Timer "sometimes it feels like life is almost not worth living when a woman can never be truly trusted...There is something to having “warmth” in a household and it extends beyond the day to day nihilism of meaningless sport fucking" BD took you to task on this (he seems genuinely conflicted/torn on the issue of nihilism) but I'm very much in touch with that emotion. But that's also why I continue to read BD, because he's offering *something* realistic that isn't utterly fatalistic, in terms of meta-worldview and lifestyle 'design' or whatever. The whole 'trust' issue bothers me too. And I'd go even further - it extends to and within family. Of course, families grow when new partners/spouses come into the lives of your immediate family members, and they can wreak havoc and tear apart what seem to be unalterable bonds between you and...your biological brother, for example. How do you not be bitter over the fact that nobody can really be trusted, and how can you maintain joy in your life without this cornerstone, even with all the other boxes of money, sex, lifestyle, physical health having been checked off? I have no answer. Yet I continue to read this blog. @Kryptokate Excellent point about women who'd up and leave everything for a hypergamous shot at money and a green card. Russian women are better at fucking than American women, but they are exhausting beyond that. As someone who's been on the cusp of quasi-MLTRs with 2 of them recently, I've experienced firsthand how virtually every word they say carries with it the aim to extract as much as they can from you. Some here have said they're 'demanding' - they're also invasive to the point of creepy. Actually, you said it best - "ruthless". I wound up ghosting both of these bitches when I realized this. Every interaction with them just made me feel worse. It's weird, I don't even feel guilty about disappearing anymore. @All Women are women, in this post-social media multicultural abyss, her culture/upbringing almost doesn't matter anymore. I've seen the SE Asian mother of my nephew threaten to abandon her family and go hooking in a major city if she didn't get her way on something relatively minor. I've seen an uncle get fucked over and taken to the cleaners by a poor yet pretty Belorussian FOB bride. I've seen a cousin have to wage war for custody over his children when his pretty bubbly blonde American wife decided she wasn't haaaaaapy anymore. I've seen a lot in my 30-some-odd years, with relationships all around me - and it's not just me with the nihilism and the loss of trust in everything in everyone. It's about what I've seen happen to a ton of decent men, as well. It brings me no peace to accept that nihilism = fatalism, so I suppose I'll now try to carve out a way of living that is utterly devoid of trust and yet somehow joyful. For that, BD, I appreciate you.
OldTimer 2017-01-08 08:15:12
The way I see it, you have about a 25% (or whatever % you want to use) shot at succeeding in a 30 year relationship based on trust. It's really a question of whether you want to gamble it all on sublime old school happiness or take the risk averse 75% method which you know the outcome of, but it won't be as sweet as the fruit on the other vine. I think calling the 25% situation disney like is a bit trite as well. It's just the old model. The one that brought European civilization 1000 years forward. I agree with the commentator who compared the situation to losing America. It all seems silly when you remember we are all just dust in the end.
pass by er 2017-01-08 13:27:17
"Lower and middle class people withhout any assets or the need to maintain living in a pricey zip code with good schools don’t have the financial incentive to stay together, so nowadays most of the time, they don’t." [KryptoKake]Well, marriages based on interests of money or social status are more solid than marriages based on love. Plus, upper-class people are better at getting rid of social programming: much fewer divorce, yes, but much more can both have a non-monogamous relation without things descending into judicial war and divorce. Lower-class people are more likely to be tied to old (fake: the only real difference with the "good old times" is that back then only men could fuck other people) ideals, see the first time one of the two spouses fucks another man/woman as "cheating", and be unable to cope with it.
[Joe K] "I’ve seen a cousin have to wage war for custody over his children when his pretty bubbly blonde American wife decided she wasn’t haaaaaapy anymore. I’ve seen a lot in my 30-some-odd years, with relationships all around me – and it’s not just me with the nihilism and the loss of trust in everything in everyone. "Oftentimes reading the comments I wonder if you people have read this blog or just comment without reading, and I'm sure BD thinks the same too. Monogamy is a social construct, it works only when people are constrained -- and it comes with great costs for all people involved (the weaker always pay harder, of course). Why "nihilism"? That nothing is exactly like you would have it doesn't mean everything means nothing. Like BD says (I'll never forget this phrase), we didn't design the system, we just have to live as good as we can in this system. You have to trust people... just not too much like the Disneys. And (kinda reminds me of thermodynamics) baffingly, the more intense the love, the shorter the dream will last: like a constant amount of love energy is available, and the faster it is used the sooner it is depleted. I have seen a very interesting statistics: divorce rate and marriage duration by number of people invited to the wedding party. You could see that the people who divorced more and were quicker to do it where couples who had celebrated marriage alone -- arguably the most romantic and in-love. Then you had those with very few people at the party. The pain for my only informal marriage (celebrated by us alone) was such that it moved me from the Alpha 1.0 box to the Alpha 2.0. I mean, ****, to see that you do exactly what you used to 1 year earlier and yet now she finds fault, looks bored, acts more irrationally making a mess of anything that you try to plan for you & her (read: acts more naturally)... it was too much, because I was a firm Disney believer then. Then came the nihilistic phase. Now I have accepted the system... that I can't re-design any part of it. Never marry legally (I didn't, as I knew how dangerous it is). Don't let NRE drive you insane. Think that if you want a long-term (almost monogamous) relationship, you and her have to have similar ways of thinking. Not during NRE, where they'll modify their behavior in order to secure your love, but "naturally". The 2 or 3 first dates I and her went out were bad. She hated my character, I hated her. Then NRE came, and we changed, and we thought it was heaven on earth; and we forgot the first 2 or 3 dates, where we both were our natural selves!
Yep. I’m a human being over age 40, thus I desire this (as you probably will when you get to be my age).They start feeling insecure about what being single may entail in terms of solitude LATER. Just 10 years after women do, haha... Feeling not young any more surely has consequences on the mind. I plan to do that thing when I am 50. Or 45, or 55.
Anon. 2017-01-08 13:57:56
The question of trust has been raised. I think the problem is that in traditional monogamous relationships there's way too much expected trust, much of it implicit, much of it due to insincere promises. "Those two love each other, why should they have any secrets, any non-shared money etc.?" Healthy relationships don't require anywhere near that level of trust. Also having trustworthy friends is a great addition to anyone's life besides relationships.
hey hey 2017-01-08 14:18:29
Americans used to have tight knit families, best friends in siblings and cousins.You think that this is good? Divorcing in such scenario is far worse than being in a culture with weak family ties. This is one of the things I believe the Americans are in better shape. The weaker the family ties you have the easier the divorce will be. Also having strong family ties means the woman will likely listen to every crap her family says and direct her mind more easily. Both men and women should care about but be as far as they can from family.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-01-08 15:01:39
I despise and loathe non-western women! I am sickened and disgusted by literally everything about them. Everything that the alpha 1.0 loves about them, I hate about them - their traditionalism; their sexual squeamishness; their slut shaming; their gold digging; their belief that sex is transactional and primarily for the man (as if they're generous lesbians or something); their refusal to get a job; their demand that men pay for them, slave away for them, and do all the work; their insistence on men becoming dependent on them for food ("I cook for you, I clean for you"); their vomit worthy and anti-intellectual "girly girl" attitude (tied to their sexual squeamishness), etc... A long time ago when I was a boy just going through puberty, this is when I knew that I would never be mainstream. All the jocks at my school were alpha 1.0s who desired precisely that type of women. All the girls at school at least pretended to try to fit that mold (at least those who wanted to fuck the jocks). Then came high school when girls were calling each other "sluts" and "whores" while the most popular boys encouraged them and espoused the "virtues" of "sexually restrained/submissive girlfriends" while they were cheating on those girlfriends with the "sluts." I looked at this and saw the insanity (and I was even able to get a jock's girlfriend in my bed because, unlike him, I never judged her for liking sex). As an adult, I looked at the PUA world and, at first, I was super enthusiastic and hopeful. And indeed, I found plenty of good and sexually open minded men to talk to (the friends I never had growing up). But then came Roosh, Heartiste, and a slew of male traditionalists who split the PUA community in two. Once again came the slut shaming, the "women should close their legs" rhetoric, and the "if there's no Disney then the only other option is nihilism" garbage. Even as an introvert who loves being alone, all this makes me feel lonely as far as my desire for friendship and emotional bonding with other men is concerned. I've done a lot of reflecting in this new year and I've become truly stunned at how utterly different I am from most men. And this is not to brag or boast, but to communicate a type of sadness. Even men like BD and others whom I would judge as genuinely sex-positive and open minded wouldn't mind fucking a traditional women as a fuck buddy, nor do they object to "girly girls" as long as they don't receive too much drama from them. Even these men don't have the loathing for these women that I do. I can say, with confidence, that if it weren't for sexually wild and financially independent western women, I'd be a full blown misogynist. These western women - the metaphorically called "gay men born in women's bodies" - are the ones that I truly love. They make me happy and keep me sexually satisfied. And I relate to them like men (except they are biological women with super feminine physical appearances), which allows me to truly connect with them. Unfortunately, even in the West, this type of woman is a minority. Although I'm sexually satisfied and happy with my girlfriend, my fuck buddies (both married and single), and her friends that we have group sex with, I can't allow my happiness to make me complacent, because my tastes are so goddamn specific that it would be foolish to take these women for granted. And yet, most of the rest of the male world would call me (and BD, and others) a loser and would designate my happy life as a miserable hell while they go to third world toilets to find their female supremacist and super prude princess! So sad. So hilarious. And so insane. The only silver lining is that, with my male competition being this low, I can say "more for me." But when you're non-monogamous and sharing your girlfriend with four other regular men (plus a horny lesbian), sexual competition isn't much of a threat anyway. Ha ha!
Gil Galad 2017-01-08 16:48:29
But then came Roosh, Heartiste, and a slew of male traditionalists who split the PUA community in twoThe very nature of that split still puzzles me. I read Roosh's first book, "Bang", a couple years ago - written in 2006 or so I think -, and there, you wouldn't guess that he would later become what he has become. I remember he said he had oneitis when he was 20, and said of the girl "I hated her and everything she stood for", which is when he gave up on pedestalization and discovered, to his shock, that chicks started rewarding him for "mistreating" them. What bitterness he had back then was just limited to that: the typical beta disappointment when realizing that girls have no use for his pink rainbow feelings or any braininess he might display, and the normal tendency to conclude "if girls prefer assholes and this is in their nature, then all girls must be assholes, just cuter". That that would evolve into wanting a religious virgin bride, praising Saudi treatment of women, and pretty much advocating a violent patriarchal overturn seemed very unexpected to me. At least in Bang he sounded slightly smarter than this.
monogamy is a social constructNot to disagree with the rest, but that bit is probably not true. There is accumulating evidence that a whole bunch of animal species are behaviorally wired for "monogamy plagued by cheating", especially birds, as well as the evolutionary mechanisms that may have given rise to such wiring. It is increasingly plausible that humans are that way too. If so, then there are two ways a person can be immune to that: 1° you're just out of the statistical norm in the way you're wired, which would be nothing extraordinary, 2° Nurture: you've had an upbringing more conducive to accepting nonmonogamy, or you consciously changed your worldview with some effort after realizing that "monogamy plagued by cheating", though arguably good for your genes, isn't good for your sustained happiness. (3° a blend of the two)
Professor 2017-01-08 16:51:46
@Eddie "Hypergamy is a universal trait shared by all women. " I agree. My point is simply that thousands upon thousands of Western men are flocking to other countries in search for the unicorn. In many cases (if not most) he will live to regret his decision. Aside from hypergamy he comes to realize the vast cultural differences and eventually that her primary motivation to be with him is that she's either a gold digger or of low SMV in her own society. Or worse, she's both. I've rarely met a western man who is ecstatic about his marriage to an Asian woman and isn't cheating or being cheated on. In other words the monogamous relationship he was looking for somewhere else isn't often there.
Joe K 2017-01-08 17:19:34
"the highest values devalue themselves. The aim is lacking, and 'Why' finds no answer...for some time now our whole European culture has been moving as toward a catastrophe, with a tortured tension that is growing from decade to decade: restlessly, violently, headlong, like a river that wants to reach the end" -nietzsche The whole world is on facebook/social media now, the "American values (roughly akin to 'European culture' in Nietzsche's time) " condensed and disseminated from the petrie dish of Silcon Valley USA have pervaded every corner of the globe by now. ------------------------------------- I have no problem with the infinitesimal minority of traditional women who say they're monogamous and never cheat. I have no problem with slutty women that Jack describes who never pretend they're otherwise/erase their pasts in order to defraud some poor beta sap for marriage and subsequent divorce + cash/prizes. I have no problem with the infinitesimal minority of 'reformed party girls' who are honest about their pasts, decide they want to be married in their 30s, come clean to their fiance/husband, and then resist the urge to cheat until the day she or he dies. How many women are like any one of these 3 prototypes today? ----------------------------------------------- Very few men understand that women do not and cannot really love them. That they are nothing more than an opportunistic, hypergamous object of attachment in her eyes - to be discarded the moment it suits her. It's not about the 'system' in that sense. It's about who women really are. It's about the fact that they have the black heart of a Kaitlin Olsen character when you really have the courage to look honestly at it. BD uses the wolf analogy, one that I totally think is accurate and useful. If you look at women like snarling wolves that you can't really "stop to pet" - well, you really can't trust them. If you can't trust them... If men were free to murder, rape, and pillage without consequence in the modern era - then I by default would feel equally as untrustworthy towards them before I even met 'em. Women's worst instincts are now incentivized. So... -------------------------------------------- Part of me has always believed that life is a battle. A war at times. But until quite recently, I didn't see personal male/female relationships through the same lens. But I think BD "There are no good options...none. They're all terrible" is echoing 'Gavin D'Amato' from almost 30 years ago "There is no winning. There are only degrees of losing", and yet those admonishments aren't necessarily fatalistic. Or are they? There's gotta be a way to fight on, to not give up, and yet to be brutally honest about how awful world-wide human relations are right now.
Blackdragon 2017-01-08 18:56:30
To everyone commenting here: Any conversation regarding nihilism is off-topic and not allowed on this blog. Just because there are no good options for long-term pair-bonding doesn't mean all men are doomed to live a life of unhappiness or meaninglessness, and to take make that leap is stupid in the extreme. For details as to why I had to ban the topic of nihilism from this blog a few years ago, and what my opinion regarding nihilism is, read this. Anyone who comments on nihilism in any way whatsoever ("we're all dust" or "there is no winning" or whatever) will be permanently banned from this blog. Thanks in advance. (It's a shame I still have to threaten this about once or twice a year. But I'm happy to do it!)
Don_Quibollox 2017-01-08 19:50:35
@Gil Galad: "There is accumulating evidence that a whole bunch of animal species are behaviorally wired for “monogamy plagued by cheating”, especially birds, as well as the evolutionary mechanisms that may have given rise to such wiring. It is increasingly plausible that humans are that way too." You write a lot of good comments but this one is way off. Have you read Sex at Dawn by Chris Ryan? We are not anything like birds. We are far, far more like chimps and bonobos in our biologically wired mating patterns. Monogamy is not our natural state, it's just SP.
Gil Galad 2017-01-09 05:17:15
@Don Quillbox: I was gonna write a long response but I realized I was basically summarizing The Red Queen (and some of The Blank Slate), so I suggest you just read it. Of course it is older than Sex at Dawn, but I am not aware that the latter has gathered much agreement; it's more like some praise and a lot of criticism - and I'm being fair by only counting criticism from evolutionary biologists, because criticism from other sources that hate evopsych anyway is expected and to be dismissed (most of it anyway). Edit: I'll read it when I get the chance of course.
BrianNY 2017-01-10 16:27:39
There's a bunch of "Game blogs" now that are saying to do this, to go to other countries to find a wife, and it's bad advice. Some even have links to foreign dating sites, with a few of those specifically for marriage (hopefully guys are not that stupid). It brings up a bigger issue and that's why do the huge majority of guys still even WANT to get married? I've read many Game blogs over the last few years and the biggest surprise to me that I find very odd is that when I began I thought guys were just trying to learn "How to get laid/ways and strategies to meet women to have sex with," but was shocked to hear almost all of these "PUA type Game bloggers" and a huge majority of guy commenters say they are getting married/plan to get married/or really WANT to get married. I don't understand why guys these days would even WANT to get married. I have never been married, and I am never going to get married. I view marriage as religion/society propaganda and control, and very beta (for lack of a better term). I consider myself an Alpha male (I was a football captain, bench over 300 lbs, voted class leader, my core value is freedom, etc). Marriage is a terrible financial decision, and I will not get married. My OMDP (One Major Definite Purpose)/Mission in my life/most important goal is to live a lifestyle of Freedom, and marriage would be the opposite of that (Mentally, Financially, Sexually). I am the only person I know who says I am never going to get married. I also will not "live with any woman" either. I've seen guys live with a woman for over seven years (depending on the state), then go through a "Common Law Marriage" divorce. I won't cohabitate with a woman because I can't be tamed/domesticated (as in beta guys in a marriage), plus I work on business a lot and there's many reasons to not have a woman around when I'm working on business often, and if I want to go somewhere I'm not going to have to always tell a cohabitation woman where I'm going. I do not even want a woman to cook and clean for me, as I have no problem taking a few minutes a day to cook and clean for myself (it's a habit that I'm used to and I like doing things myself). If a woman started to cook/clean for me it would trigger traditional gender roles, and I'm not a provider/husband, so it never happens (I always clean up after myself). I really like women a lot. I always treat women very well (I am not insecure so I don't even try to put women down). I avoid negative people because it's not good for my own mental happiness, or for maintaining my own seductive/masculine sexuality/fun cool guy who meets women for sex vibe. I would not be able to continue this masculine vibe and freedom lifestyle by getting married, especially to a woman from another country. I haven't yet, but over the years ahead I plan on traveling to a few other countries to get laid (the main reason I plan to travel to those countries). However, I would never marry any of them. Personally, I've decided recently that traveling to SEA is not for me (there's some cute girls), but the culture is not my thing, and I would be concerned about being blackmailed into marriage. Not only does "marrying non-western women not work," traditional marriage does not work, so it makes no sense why it seems like 99 percent of guys still WANT to get married.
Professor 2017-01-11 20:59:23
Not only does “marrying non-western women not work,” traditional marriage does not work, so it makes no sense why it seems like 99 percent of guys still WANT to get married.Deep societal programming. Plain and simple. Lots of things people do make no sense, but they do it anyways, because they want to be normal. They don't desire happiness. They desire social validation.
Elba 2017-01-12 13:28:22
I am originally from West Africa and have spent a few years in the West. When I found this blog last month, I thought to myself most African men I know (at least the ones in West Africa) would not invest in learning this lifestyle. Although most of them are monogamously married, it is in their SP that "married men always cheat". They just have to invest in learning how to deal with the drama that this brings, which is usually making sure their FBs know their place. Unlike in the West, the divorce laws in my country are not hugely in favour of women. That has not stopped the rate of divorce from going up though (I checked the data after reading this blog and I was shocked! Mind you, this is a conservative West African country.) This post, however, is spot on!! I know of several West African men who after moving to America or Europe and becoming successful, decided to bring a conservative girl from their home countries as wives because the women in the West "don't have good manners". These conservative girls slowly transformed like BD's Filipino girl. Unfortunately, these men were not as lucky as BD. They got married without a prenup. Guess what happens when you give so much power to someone who never knew it existed. The conservative girls got enlightened and took FULL advantage of that power: divorce and all the other sh*t BD warns against. Imagine the hours spent by these men working their socks off to pay for University tuition while supporting their families back home. Just when they thought it was time for them to enjoy life, they became gold mines. The video of Eddie Murphy posted above is not just comedy. It's real life! I'm shocked this has been going on for more than three decades. Men who have had the same cultural upbringing and the same societal programming as these women have tried to have a blissful LT marriage with them and failed. Don't try to be a hero.
OldTimer 2017-01-14 17:13:16
A lot of the people shitting on monogamy in this thread (I have no qualms with this stance), but the level of vitriol/ingratitude from people like Jack in the Box and hey hey is irksome. You guys should realize without western monogamy your lifestyles would have never been possible. There would be iPhone, no airplane, no plumbing, no electricity. Everything would look like subsaharan Africa because the beta male would simply not exist. I'm not disagreeing with the current stance of this blog that monogamy is highly unlikely to be tenable, but those of you expressing vitriol toward the concept ever existing would do well to remember you are only able to post your thoughts thanks to nearly 2000 years of this structure. For those who's retort will be that men still have their mission in life... What man has ever given his life for an idea? Men give their lives for hearth and for home, for blood and soil, not bullshit abstract constructs. Do well to remember who originally buttered your bread gentlemen. It's similar to how every freak wants their degenerate lifestyle rationalized and accepted by the mainstream these days, yet it is destroying our country like a plague. BD's libertarian ideals go down the toilet along with SJW delusions because you can't separate identity politics away from their inherent marxist leanings.
Blackdragon 2017-01-14 22:18:43
You guys should realize without western monogamy your lifestyles would have never been possible.
Do well to remember who originally buttered your bread gentlemen.Past societal accomplishments are completely irrelevant to the individual man in 2017 seeking long-term happiness for his life. Just because monogamous people did some good things in the past doesn't mean you as an individual must choose a life path that doesn't work anymore. Acknowledging those in the past is one thing. Copying them, when what they did will bring you unhappiness, is another.
Professor 2017-01-15 00:04:41
@OldTimer Thank you for past monogamy. Thanks to my parents who by and large had a fabulous marriage, I grew up in a great home with excellent values. Then my mom past away and in the new millennium my father married a woman his age who has been a single mother for most of her life. Due to his old age he probably will stay with her, albeit not nearly as happy as he was with my mother. Add to that he's wanted out of that relationship at least a few times for all the drama involved. I don't think he got in for the drama. But he certainly got it. He seemed happier playing the field after my mom passed. Even his generation, largely 'monogamous', is finding it tough to discover happiness in that setup. What is abstract today is monogamy. We can thank the past when I could swim in the lake. Today I can't. It's too polluted. Swimming in the lake is an abstract now.
Professor 2017-01-15 04:14:36
@OldTimer I should add that during those past 2000 years you've described, monogamous relationships throughout the world involved a lot of infidelity. My grandparents stayed together as a "monogamous" couple, but close to the time my grandfather passed away, he'd told us that he'd had an extra-marital affair which resulted in a daughter no one had known about prior. So I it's important to frame the "monogamous" relationships you're referring to in quotes. I'm also not sure that monogamous (without quotes) marriages were responsible for the lifestyles we previously enjoyed. It may have been a factor, but there definitely would have been other factors.
Joe K 2017-01-15 09:35:04
"it makes no sense why it seems like 99 percent of guys still WANT to get married" It makes perfect sense to me. There is no greater lure to the ego than the concept of the 'Hero's Journey'. Men need a mission and meaning. Without some 'righteous' external war to wage, cultivating and sustaining a 'quality' nuclear family is seen by the great many as the next best route to self-actualization. @Old Timer - do not forget that 3 waves of feminism took that choice away from us. It also took concepts of shame and morality completely out of the 'nurture' equation for modern women. I had yet another experience last night where I went home with an early-40s woman I just met at a local bar, who'd mentioned her "ex-husband". Two of her 40-something girlfriends were with us. She also 'introduced' me (Facetime) to her 20 year old daughter like I was her trophy for the night, right before she dragged me to the bedroom and hooked up. After sex, I noticed honeymoon-like happy smiling photos of her and her "ex-husband" on both of the bed's end tables (I honestly did not see them before, it was a 'rip each others clothes off' thing beforehand). She then freaked out a little and said we couldn't stay in the bedroom, so I chatted with her 10 minutes outside then left. But think of how many women were in on that, including her own daughter. Not only did they not think anything was wrong with what she was doing, they actually cheered her on! I think I'm just now coming to terms with this - accepting it's simply the way things are in 2017 and being at peace with it. That's definitely turning a corner for me.
OldTimer 2017-01-15 09:48:38
Serious question... Can someone define or articulate what it means to feel happy? Is it just the feeling of contentedness and stability or does it actually entail feeling a slight twinge of pleasantness all the time (a constant slight smirk of approval on your face) minus times of legitimate upsetedness. I know BD wrote a post once describing that he doesn't just feel like a robot. That he feels excitement and elation, but over groups of women he is working on, but I meant the feeling of happiness in general since women are just one medium sized facet of life. I find my own moods to be a never ending roller coaster of peeks and troughs with a baseline that is slightly below the average persons, but it tends to be more stable through the little miffs of life probably because I am fairly even tempered and lackadaisical about most minor things in life (eg. something minor around your house breaks..). Incidentally, rainy days get people down, but I notice I am higher energy than average those days and compete better in the social energy spectrum on those days. Perhaps Seattle should be my destination.. BD, have you ever been OCD/a perfectionist? I'm wondering if that personality defect is what causes some of us to cling to a perfect world standard for facilitating our own happiness. I think I remember reading a comment on Roissy back in 2007 that those traits are linked to puritanism and are found in militant vegans and vegetarians as well.
Blackdragon 2017-01-15 10:38:05
Can someone define or articulate what it means to feel happy?https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/05/30/what-is-happiness/ https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/02/15/how-happiness-works-over-time/ And nice subject change. Does this mean you agree with the above refutations of your vacuous argument?
BD, have you ever been OCD/a perfectionist?No. If you took one look at the inside of my house you'd see. But I'm anal about certain things at certain times. The desire for long-term consistent happiness has nothing whatsoever to do with being OCD or a perfectionist. It has to do with being happy and not liking unhappiness.
OldTimer 2017-01-15 14:50:31
Believe it or not I wasn't trying to derail anything. I'm providing a foil (advocatus diaboli) for you to refute against because I'm genuinely interested in having all my concerns addressed in the search for a new world view. I don't think my point was vacuous, but yes I agree with your refutation. That's partly why I caveated that I have no qualms with the stance on monogamy here. Truth be told I agree 100% at this point, just not sure if I personally can succeed at executing the alternative lifestyle necessary to avoid it/whether I am capable of being happy without it (a traditional marriage). It also just irks me that people don't have respect for the culture which got us to today (major reason why I can't stand the left). Ingrates are on a short list just like traitors. Functionally I think there is no difference between the polyamorist faction and the gay marriage/other SJW factions as far as societal decay is concerned. I realize we hop back and forth a lot between what is good for the individual/what is good for society here and how those two are significantly at odds. I am fully cognizant that you have repeated 1000 times that your writing is only workable on an individual level and is intended for individual consumption. I gave up on the old world view when my previous LTR ended. Now I'm just looking for a new paradigm with which I can live my life, but that'll also allow me to maintain family peace. I'm still very young (under 30). I just thought I'd give monogamy one last chance and not look a gift horse in the mouth (the three girls I'd been with before that I was doing my best not to chump it up and give up the game, but they weren't going to work out anyway for a variety of reasons). When life finally presented me a perfect (by my standards) long term candidate I was trying to not be an asshole (ie. be an asshole by not committing in the typical fashion) so as not to later be faced with the regret that I didn't do everything in my power to make it work. In the context of your happiness posts that you linked to, there was no NRE, but there was always a sense of contentedness because I know how hard it is to be in the game (it's a lot of work and hassle for a few mediocre pops, at least for me). So having a cute chick that gets you, but sacrificing some freedom is better than being free and banging a bunch of chicks that I don't connect with as well (or trying to with a lot of failure..). I'm sorry if there are things you've covered before, I've devoured a significant portion of your archive (including the happiness articles), but there is so much material I do forget a lot of it. I do try to google around before immediately asking a question. *** Btw curious side point: can Trump qualify for alpha 2.0? He seems to have all the markers. His marriages seem more like appeasement ceremonies someone of his level can afford to make the OLTR of that period of his life happy (he's got a lot of love and warmth in his heart). If your response will be his temper as alpha 1.0 I'd disagree on inference grounds. He seems to tactically annihilate people he views as examples (similar to salt the earth campaigns Roman generals would run) but he doesn't genuinely care about those who insult him. Eg. Rosie O'Donnell was a strategic take down and not. Might be a subject for another thread... I'd also like to take a moment to give you a shout of appreciation for how active you are in the comments section to your articles. You're a busy guy, and time is money, so the fact you are so responsive to some of our drivel is really courteous (and yeah I realize it's part of the business of making the blog good, but it's still commendable). The fans notice.
Blackdragon 2017-01-15 15:13:03
Truth be told I agree 100% at this pointWonderful, then I don't know why you're looking for excuses to argue. Long-term monogamy doesn't work today, find an alternative system for yourself (there are many to choose from), stop whining about the irrelevant past, and get to work to better your life.
can Trump qualify for alpha 2.0?No. He his Alpha 1.0 in the extreme. Trump is the God of Alpha Male 1.0s.
He seems to have all the markers.He has literally none of the markers. He's a high-drama, extremely outcome dependent, serial monogamist cheater. Alpha 1.0 to the core.
Joe K 2017-01-15 16:39:00
@Old Timer That 2nd paragraph above, a lot of it resonates with me. But... "I know how hard it is to be in the game" When I've stopped worrying about 'keeping the family peace', internalized that all the 'happy couples' I see are comprised of 2 individuals who want/will soon want to fuck literally anybody (halfway-attractive) else, and given up on the idea of trusting people, and let go of a dogged attachment to reciprocal honesty from anyone - I have found that I can write my own script and it is simple and easy to be in the game. I was at this point ~4 years ago before a 'this could be the one' LTR set me back terribly, and I'm aspiring to get back there now. There's been a lot of bitterness along the way, but eventually I'm getting to a point where I can accept that humans definitely have an unequivocally evil side, but that it doesn't have to ruin my peace. Or, to put a rose-colored tint on that same concept - "they don't know what they don't know". We can create whatever life we want to by letting go of attachment to all this shit - family expectations and 'reverence' for our ancestors/societal foundations and so forth.
OldTimer 2017-01-15 20:06:40
There's plenty of reasons to argue. It refines the world view you are trying to present by dialectically teasing out aspects of it that would otherwise be lost in translation (i.e. we the reader don't live inside your head...) Based on your list it looks like there are really only two tenable options for raising kids (since that is a non-starter-has to happen thing for me). The third world option is just bullshit so I am leaving it out (it's another pie in the sky fantasy and highly undesirable for a variety of reasons). Option 1 is monogamous marriage and option 2 is non-monogamous marriage. So it sounds like we are back to square 1 in that respect. Sounds like temporary attempt at monogamy (20 years-ish) is worth a shot, just so long as you go in with the expectation that there is near 0% chance it will truly be forever/work out as a disney fantasy. The chances you would get cucked in an OLTR and not know about it seem higher than in a regular monogamous marriage. You'll still need a prenup (I know they aren't a guarantee either anymore). Re Trump: I can see why you'd think he is Alpha 1.0, but I will present my case: His high drama incidents are always calculated and he comes out a winner suggesting that they are in fact strategic scrimmages meant to enhance his power/take down his enemies. In that regard he isn't seeking drama, but merely reminding people of their place. A few examples: Rosie O'Donnell take down, Kahn family take down, McCain takedown, Meghan Kelly takedown, etc etc... Guess it depends on whether you think he was playing 4D chess in these incidents or just a lucky buffoon. As for his marriages. I'll grant you his first marriage was alpha male 1.0, but then so was yours. Everyone gets to make a mistake. His second marriage was alpha male 1.5, where he probably thought he had to get married to maintain respectability/pair bond, but he unapologetically did what he wanted (who's to say he didn't functionally have an OLTR with Marla). I'd say marriage where the wife tolerates your infidelity is functionally alpha 2.0 because its DADT understood that you are a powerful sex hungry alpha who will do as he pleases. Notice none of his ex-wives hate him and seem to still adore him. His last marriage we probably don't need to discuss, since he was 50+ at the time and we all know that's the point where pair bonding is probably higher on the list than sex. Also I'd add that based on your list, since Trump wanted to continue raising kids in all his marriages, he really only had two options: 1) traditional marriage and 2) OLTR, since moving to the 3rd world for someone like him is moderately idiotic (plus he obviously loves America and would be miserable elsewhere). Out of those two options, he realistically can't choose the second one. He'd be a laughing stock among his alpha 1.0 buddies if his wife was fucking other men. Now I get that 2.0 is supposed to be independent, but let's be realistic about what one man can take. Especially someone who has to deal with other men in a business environment and keep their respect. If you can fuck a man's wife, you can fuck him in business. So he had to settle for option 1 with a little bit of option 2 in the form of French style marital infidelity (ie. the wife tolerates it, because boys will be boys). Evidence that he is highly outcome independent: 1) notice he really didn't care about winning the presidency on an emotional level and thus was able to wage an unconventional campaign i.e. gamble double or nothing at every stage). 2) his deal making ability 3) he is able to take hatred and vitriol of the entire US establishment and not even flinch The only problem with back and forth on Trump is that everyone sees what they want to see in the man these days so it makes a fact based approach difficult, since even the facts are subject to interpretation or rather the facts are never 100% established since motives matter in the man's actions. It's interesting that like you, he is completely opposed to doing drugs personally and is a life long teetotaler.
BrianNY 2017-01-15 21:20:52
As one who does not get into arguments, just courteously thinking about some comments and while I understand the point being made; I don't think that "monogamy" results in "scientific innovations." Especially before say the 1960's most people were expected to get married due to societal expectations/conditioning/pressure (almost forced to get married). It is my view (and I could be wrong) that the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment (that allowed for the expanding of modern science) was possible by society/governments (who sought more of a separation between church and state) breaking away from the repressive religion/limiting progress "authority" of the church (who burned books) that eventually created enough of an environment of personal/scientific freedom, along with a FEW (over hundreds of years) people who instead of farming or manual labor had key scientific thoughts/innovations, and these two main developments lead to many of our modern technological inventions that many of us are very grateful for/benefit from. Therefore, the perspective that it is specifically Science, not monogamy, that causes scientific/technological innovations. Not in any order or specific inventions, only just to name a few people who were involved in innovations who were not totally monogamous (and there's likely many more). Nikola Tesla (never married, may have practiced chastity). Thomas Edison (married twice). Alan Turning (believed homo). Tim Berners-Lee (married twice). Alexander Fleming (married twice). Isaac Newton (never married, some say possibly homo, some say died virgin). Nicolaus Copernicus (never married). Galileo (had three "out of wedlock children, not married). Francis Bacon (at age 45 married 14 year old, possibly bi). Johannes Kepler (married twice). Michelangelo (never married, possibly bi tendencies, possible homo, possible chastity). Leonardo da Vinci (never married, speculated homo). Ludwig van Beethoven (never married). The Wright Brothers (neither Wright brother married). Where would society be if more people did not get married? Ever see the "Family Guy Stewie Time Machine No Christianity" episode where Stewie says, "In this Universe Christianity never existed, which means the Dark Ages of Scientific repression never occurred, and thus humanity is 1000 years more advanced."
Blackdragon 2017-01-16 10:43:12
There’s plenty of reasons to argue.When we agree? Says the guy who once said on here, and I quote, "I’m happier just being lazy and not doing anything. Not having responsibilities and stress is satisfying" Please dude, find a Mission and/or some goals and go make your life better instead of engaging in useless arguments with strangers on the internet.
SaraBear 2017-01-16 19:53:08
Even if there was, it would be irrelevant. So she dumps you after 7 years instead of 3 years… how is this a victory for the right-wing manosphere guy looking to settle down and be married forever? I have a hard time understanding how you can extrapolate your own life as a victory. Given everything is transitory, your Alpha Male 2.0 is just as pointless as my whatever-I-want-t0-call-it which is just as pointless as this person's 3 or 7 year fling. You do realize you've extrapolated things a bit too far on the existential scale, don't you?
Blackdragon 2017-01-16 20:45:03
Given everything is transitory, your Alpha Male 2.0 is just as pointless as my whatever-I-want-t0-call-it which is just as pointless as this person’s 3 or 7 year fling.Incorrect. My Alpha 2.0 lifestyle is sustainable for the rest of my life; the next 40 or 50 years if I want. Your 3-7 year fling is not.
OldTimer 2017-01-17 21:30:42
Who says I'm not looking for a mission? I've been looking for many years, but I'm also a dabbler. I get bored with things quickly. I want to make something useful (like cars or microwaves) and own a factory and employ people and restore the glory of this great nation to the extent one individual can. But this is also a pie in the sky dream with no realistic way to get there. Everything useful that doesn't require an IQ of 160 and a nuclear physics background has already been invented. The odds of starting a factory without already being ridiculously rich is also damn near 0%. I've generally been better at executing other people's missions. The classic stereotype of someone good at school and as an engineer type employee, but not much more. My original mission was to fuck 100+ women, mostly out of spite, for life cheating me out of even basic female attachment in the younger years (I know, I know... everything is my own fault, but that doesn't fully register in the human brain). That sort of failed as I came to realize the commitment to game would require becoming a full time PUA and moving to Vegas or LA to PUA full time. Haven't had much success online. Am considering buying your book, but tbh I've bought so many pick up products/bootcamps over the years I doubt it's got anything new. It's all the same stuff just rehashed in different ways. Most even around here would say this isn't a proper mission anyway. I enjoy debate with other like minded people, so the internet is the place for that (at least for things that are thought crimes). I thought back and forth was the purpose of the comments section here. Physics, math, political philosophy (with this stuff being an odd sub realm of political philosophy), social dynamics - all enjoyable pass times. Also my opinions on life shift heavily with my mind state. Being lazy and not having responsibilities is no longer tenable, since my lackadaisical LTR left me. So we can't be lackadaisical together anymore. Back to some futile pursuit, since the human sex drive combined with the power of swiping right can temporarily overpower depression/the will to do nothing.
professor 2017-01-18 00:12:43
@OldTimer: you are your own worst enemy. And that's why BD and others here subscribe to the very credible idea that everything's your fault in your life. It all comes down to your focus. You choose what you focus on. And you're focused on things which have little value towards happiness. Your mission won't just come to you. You have to create it and go to it. And recalibrate it as you go towards it and get clearer about what you really want. Rather than looking at events in your life as pure fuck-ups because of external factors, take the lesson that you're responsible for your life and those experiences have taught you what to accept and what to reject in your life in order to create a life of happiness.
Don_Quibollox 2017-01-18 19:33:48
Professor, are you the guy that writes under that moniker on Stickman readers' submissions? If so, I always enjoy your input there. 🙂 And for others in general that collection of essays is great to browse through if you are having even half a thought about living in SE Asia. It has contributed greatly to my aversion to living in Thailand (I live in a neighbouring country).
Professor 2017-01-19 01:29:28
@Don No it's not me.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-01-20 04:34:38
@OldTimer (the name suits you, by the way):
A lot of the people shitting on monogamy in this threadThat makes us awake.
(I have no qualms with this stance), but the level of vitriol/ingratitude from people like Jack in the BoxWho is that? I've never seen anyone here with that particular screen name. But if he's "shitting on monogamy," good for him!
You guys should realize without western monogamy your lifestyles would have never been possible. There would be iPhone, no airplane, no plumbing, no electricity. Everything would look like subsaharan Africa because the beta male would simply not exist.We are shitting on monogamy now, not when such a stance would have been impractical due to a lack of birth control, paternity testing, pre-industrial revolution villages, etc...
For those who’s retort will be that men still have their mission in life… What man has ever given his life for an idea? Men give their lives for hearth and for home, for blood and soil, not bullshit abstract constructs.The American Founding Fathers would strongly disagree with you. Your "blood and soil" conception of sacrifice is very European in origin (read: un-American) and very alt right.
Do well to remember who originally buttered your bread gentlemen.When we lived in small villages without technology where neighbors observed neighbors and having sex was the same thing as having children, monogamy was necessary. Today, it's inhuman and cruel. My disgust for non-western women was a purely subjective take based on my own sexual tastes, not an objective political commentary on the viability of the sexual culture of third world shitholes.
It’s similar to how every freak wants their degenerate lifestyle rationalizedYou think our non-monogamous lifestyles are "degenerate?" Then you're in the wrong place, dude!
and accepted by the mainstream these days, yet it is destroying our country like a plague.No! Today, it is monogamy that is destroying this country like the plague and other blue pill horseshit. If you think this blog or our lifestyle is destroying the country than you REALLY have no business on this blog. Just remain in your church and flog yourself. Your slut shaming is really out of place here.
BD’s libertarian ideals go down the toilet along with SJW delusions because you can’t separate identity politics away from their inherent marxist leanings.Libertarian ideals are the opposite of "identity politics."
Jack Outside the Box 2017-01-20 04:58:34
Truth be told I agree 100% at this point, just not sure if I personally can succeed at executing the alternative lifestyle necessary to avoid it/whether I am capable of being happy without it (a traditional marriage).Marriage is an institution. Who wants to live in an institution?
Functionally I think there is no difference between the polyamorist faction and the gay marriage/other SJW factions as far as societal decay is concerned.Lumping us in with SJW scum is REALLY destroying whatever credibility you have (assuming you've ever had any here). It is a cliché that a person who is sexually satisfied is happy, relaxed, peaceful, and optimistic. Whereas the sexually frustrated are violent, prone to war, murder, rape, theft, all other human rights violations, depression, suicide, anger, terrorism, etc... Tell me again who is contributing to "societal decay?" Those who want to increase human happiness and establish world peace via sex-positivism? Or those who preach that "all sex is rape?"
I realize we hop back and forth a lot between what is good for the individual/what is good for society here and how those two are significantly at odds.No, they're not. The happier the individual, the more he wants to help others, the happier those others get, etc... Misery is contagious, but so is happiness. The happiness of the society begins with the happiness of a single individual.
I gave up on the old world view when my previous LTR ended.And yet you still call us degenerates and blame us for the societal decay brought on by SJWs.
Now I’m just looking for a new paradigm with which I can live my life, but that’ll also allow me to maintain family peace.Open relationships are the best paradigm for family peace. Imagine no cheating, no lying, no joint ownership, constant sexual satisfaction, no sexual blackmail, sexual competition from others creating incentive to treat your partner well and never take her for granted, etc... There's your paradigm of family peace, as distinguished from the deception, misery, and imprisonment of monogamy.
I’m still very young (under 30).That explains your constant self-contradictions.
I just thought I’d give monogamy one last chance and not look a gift horse in the mouthLOL!
When life finally presented me a perfect (by my standards) long term candidate I was trying to not be an asshole (ie. be an asshole by not committing in the typical fashion)Being non-monogamous makes you an asshole??? Wow! Your blue pill brainwashing is legion! You really are an "OldTimer." Please stop lying to us by saying you agree with us on non-monogamy. You don't. You are firmly within the blue pill traditionalist camp.
so as not to later be faced with the regret that I didn’t do everything in my power to make it work.You thought monogamy would work? That's like drinking poison in order to prevent death.
In the context of your happiness posts that you linked to, there was no NRE, but there was always a sense of contentedness because I know how hard it is to be in the game (it’s a lot of work and hassle for a few mediocre pops, at least for me). So having a cute chick that gets you, but sacrificing some freedom is better than being free and banging a bunch of chicks that I don’t connect with as well (or trying to with a lot of failure..).False either/or dilemma. Damn man! Just.....damn!
Jack Outside the Box 2017-01-20 05:11:45
Based on your list it looks like there are really only two tenable options for raising kids (since that is a non-starter-has to happen thing for me). The third world option is just bullshit so I am leaving it out (it’s another pie in the sky fantasy and highly undesirable for a variety of reasons). Option 1 is monogamous marriage and option 2 is non-monogamous marriage.Um.....how about - NO MARRIAGE! Do you really need the government in your bedroom and external validation from the sheeple in order to be committed? I keep going back to the wedding vows. If an alpha 2.0 were to be honest, the wedding vows would go like this: "Do you promise to be with this woman for as long as you want to? And do you promise to support your children with her for as long as you can? Do you promise to stay with her for as long as she makes you happy? And do you promise to dump her as soon as she doesn't? Um.....what's the difference between the above and your default mindset without a marriage anyway? If there is no difference, then marriage is pointless. If there is a difference, you need to raise your self esteem.
So it sounds like we are back to square 1 in that respect. Sounds like temporary attempt at monogamy (20 years-ish) is worth a shot,Sigh. Dear lord, you're fucking hopeless dude!
The chances you would get cucked in an OLTR and not know about it seem higher than in a regular monogamous marriage.How so?
You’ll still need a prenup (I know they aren’t a guarantee either anymore).Who needs a prenup if they don't get married?
Jack Outside the Box 2017-01-20 05:23:26
do not forget that 3 waves of feminism took that choice away from us. It also took concepts of shame and morality completely out of the ‘nurture’ equation for modern women.Good.
I had yet another experience last night where I went home with an early-40s woman I just met at a local bar, who’d mentioned her “ex-husband”. Two of her 40-something girlfriends were with us. She also ‘introduced’ me (Facetime) to her 20 year old daughter like I was her trophy for the night, right before she dragged me to the bedroom and hooked up. After sex, I noticed honeymoon-like happy smiling photos of her and her “ex-husband” on both of the bed’s end tables (I honestly did not see them before, it was a ‘rip each others clothes off’ thing beforehand). She then freaked out a little and said we couldn’t stay in the bedroom, so I chatted with her 10 minutes outside then left. But think of how many women were in on that, including her own daughter.That's awesome! The reason she lied to you and said that her current husband is an "ex" is because she sensed your slut shaming tendencies (that you are demonstrating here) which prevented her from being fully honest with you.
Not only did they not think anything was wrong with what she was doing,That's because there isn't. She is a high self esteem, empowered woman who is doing the poly thing without the husband's knowledge because the husband isn't ready for red pill truth. So this deception is the only way she can be compassionate towards him and shield him from pain at this infantile stage of his spiritual evolution. She's being a great person by taking care of her sexual needs on the side. You need to put your own oxygen mask on first before helping anyone else with theirs. She sees through the monogamy deception and is handling it in the best way she knows how. Cheering her on is the least you owe her. Instead, you're trashing her!
they actually cheered her on!Good. She should be cheered on. It's what you should be doing too.
I think I’m just now coming to terms with this – accepting it’s simply the way things are in 2017 and being at peace with it. That’s definitely turning a corner for me.That lying to the sheep is an act of compassion towards them until they can be gently guided towards the red pill? Yes, that is how things are and have always been. This is good, not bad!
Anon. 2017-01-20 07:37:02
Or maybe the husband was actually in on all of that--nothing in the story disproves it--making Joe the only blue pill person among the participants.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-01-20 18:12:19
Or maybe the husband was actually in on all of that–nothing in the story disproves it–making Joe the only blue pill person among the participants.Yes, that's possible as well. Which would make the story even more awesome, but even sadder for Joe, since everyone is in on the open/poly party, whereas Joe thinks she's betraying her husband and is "shocked" that no one is slut shaming her (as if she'd deserve that even if his narrative were true, which she wouldn't). Traditional conservatism really is a cancer.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-01-20 22:19:09
@David: First you say this:
Im 33, and every time I travel, I have an amazing fling with a girl much younger than me.Then this:
Latin america is a place where every american man should live for a short while, just to understand how gender roles were in the past.Um......in the past, women's virginity was prized above precious jewelry and women who weren't "pure" before marriage were considered the trash of society. Your flings with Latinas in no way indicate how things used to be before.
Its more than that. People used to be like that.No, they used to be the exact opposite.
Americans used to have tight knit families, best friends in siblings and cousins.This, right here, is our fundamental disagreement with the alt right! Us individualists (cultural libertarians) recognize "tight knit families, best friends in siblings and cousins," etc... as huge and massive cockblocks which make women unapproachable without going through the mafia (her family and community). We hate that because a sexually liberated society is literally impossible in this type of so called "high trust society." A sexually open minded community requires privacy, discretion, and individualism. The only way to ensure these things is to create a "low trust society," which us introverts love. Your "tight knit" extroverted community would not only make individualistic creativity (especially sexual creativity) impossible, but it would also purposefully narrow the range of social acceptability within the human personality. In short, for us introverts (or just sexually liberated people in general) what you long for can only be described with one word - Hell!
Every american girl I meet hates her dadWhich probably makes it easier for you to fuck her. What are your thoughts on the alt right's endorsement of prearranged marriages?
and rarely speaks to her family.If she did speak with her family, would she be more sexually open minded or less? Hmm? What do you think?
You’d be crazy to think that woman would be a good spouse.You'd be crazy to be looking for a good spouse (or any spouse).
I believe the same respect a woman has for her father, she will have for her man.There is truth in this, which is why the poly community is such a goldmine. There, everyone in the family is sexually promiscuous and liberated. As such close and very emotional family bonds don't serve as a cockblock, but rather as a culture which precisely enforces sex-positivism by cheering on sons and daughters who are getting laid left and right! That is the ideal family to me. If the majority of families were like this, I'd be less resistant to the alt right's "high trust society" concept.
So if you move her here, will it undo her lifelong perspective and respect for men?I'd say sex-positive women love men too much to disrespect them (although most of them have no time for betas or alpha 1.0s).
I know two guys who brought back brides from latin america about ten years ago. They seem super happy.At first. Monogamous marriage is the quickest pathway to misery, unless you're living in a small third world village without technology and with neighbors observing neighbors (what you call ideal and what I call hell).
Remember, The man still has to be a man and keep things in line. Dont let her hang out with a bunch of bad influences.HAHAHAHA!!! Dude, she's not a fucking child! "Bad influences?" What the fuck? Stop trying to control other adults.
Dont spoil her or let her win when she tests the waters.You're talking about a two year old, right?
Heres a funny story: I went on a date with a girl from TJ last week. She’s 20. Her father actually walked her across the border to meet me! 2 hours in line! Turns out, she loves justin beiber, disney land, and shopping lol. In this case, she has about three years before she’s full blown american woman.My god, so you actually prefer this "psychological pedophilia?" I guess prearranged marriages and parents cockblocking their adult daughters is perfectly fine and dandy with you! Jesus!
Jack Outside the Box 2017-01-21 00:32:01
Of course, families grow when new partners/spouses come into the lives of your immediate family members, and they can wreak havoc and tear apart what seem to be unalterable bonds between you and…your biological brother, for example.Non-monogamy and a rejection of Marxist co-ownership solves this.
How do you not be bitter over the fact that nobody can really be trusted,How did you come to the insane conclusion that no one can be trusted? It's true that you can't trust people to suppress their sexual instincts just because of bullshit monogamy agreements, but suppressing your sex drive isn't healthy anyway and ultimately leads to psychological dysfunction. But what does any of this have to do with emotional or spiritual loyalty? A woman may be your most loyal soulmate, even while she's cheating on you with me because you can't handle biological truths. But what does sexual monogamy have to do with trust and loyalty? And why do you assume that a lack of sexual ownership somehow equals a lack of fidelity?
Don_Quibollox 2017-01-21 18:06:51
For a prime example of an Aussie beta being taken for a ride by an Asian woman, read this: https://www.stickmanbangkok.com/readers-submissions/2017/01/my-thailand-experience-so-far/ At first I thought it was satirical, but no, he means it!
Me 2017-02-09 02:51:33
I wonder if you are aware of common law tort called alienation of affections. If an alpha fucks my wife, under this statute I take his ass to court for all he is worth. I say given the $$$$ divorce costs, and him being the reason, it is only fair.
Me 2017-02-09 03:25:33
Blackdragon 2017-02-09 11:33:50
If an alpha fucks my wife, under this statute I take his ass to court for all he is worth.Good luck with that. Sounds like a great way to spend your time, spending thousands of dollars suing the guy who fucked your wife, instead of dumping your cheating wife, or just opening up your marriage. Sounds like a great path to happiness.
me 2017-02-09 18:13:52
5 states you should know about, especially NC, where OW and OM are routinely sued for alienation of affections and awarded significant amounts of $ by judges. Even if you live elsewhere but fuck in NC, a lawsuit can be brought in NC under the statute. Resume: fucking married men or women is not as safe as it seems, their spouse can hire a pi and sue, especially if it looks lucrative (u have $) Oh, you can keep fucking married women while in NC, just don't be surprised to find a court summons one day and go through divorce rape for your married fuck buddy.
Linda 2017-07-09 08:41:21
I am a woman who stumbled onto this site and I must say, I cannot believe so many misconceptions exist about women. I have never, in my life, datied a man for money or status. In fact, I have most often dated men far below my own socio-economic status. Also, I have always been painfully loyal but have been cheated on multiple times by the "Alphas" I have dated. Where are these women you Alphas are talking about? I never see any. I mean....I guess if you are 50+ and are trying to wife up a 20 year old, it's going to be a mess, of course...but that does not indicate all women are immoral! lol
Anon 2017-07-09 14:40:48
So, Linda, most of men you've dated have been penniless jerks. That such men are highly attractive to women is one of the basic principles of red pill psychology. What exactly looks like a misconception to you?