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How to Deal With Shaming Language from Family and Friends
-By Caleb Jones
He or she is in your family or social circle, so you can’t just tell these people to fuck off (although there are times you can, and should; more on this in a minute). What do you say? What do you do?
Today, I’ll give you some common examples of shaming language you may receive from your friends and family members when they see you smiling and happy and living the Alpha 2.0 good life, and how best to deal with them. These are all real examples that I have either seen in real life or that many of you have reported to me.
Before we get into specific scenarios, we need to make a key differentiation between shaming language and drama.
Shaming language is a casual, though challenging statement that attempts to make you look bad because you’re not behaving in the traditional, Societal Programming way. Drama, as I clearly defined here, is harsh negativity directed at you.
Shaming language is when your sister-in-law implies that you’re being immature because you won’t get legally and monogamously married like she did to your beta male brother. Drama is your mom screaming at you and calling you a loser. There’s a difference and it's important you don't confuse or conflate the two.
Shaming language does not require soft nexting. However, there may be rare times where shaming language escalates to drama, thus requiring a soft next. Frankly, if this happens, it’s likely your fault, since you gave the shaming language too much attention.
You Won’t Change Their Minds
The one thing to keep in mind during all of this is that it’s extremely unlikely that you’re going to change anyone’s minds, regardless of how right you are and how many facts are on your side. If you’ve ever debated a right-winger on abortion or gay marriage, or a left-winger on unions or race, you already know what I’m talking about. As I’ve described publicly, in some form or fashion, for over 20 years, people come to their strongly held opinions not from objectivity, rationality, facts, or logic. Instead, people formulate their options mostly because of false Societal Programming and their feelings.
Feelings are great. I have positive feelings all the time. I strongly recommend them. But feelings are not a good way to form opinions around which to base your life. That’s a recipe for disaster at best, up-and-down happiness at worst.
Worse, when someone has strong, irrational feelings backing up their opinions, presenting facts to them not only doesn’t change their mind, but it actually makes them angrier. Those of you who have read my stuff for a long time have seen this happen in comments on blogs and forums many times. I’ll present a slew of facts and statistics, and in return I’ll get personal attacks. Feelings always trump facts. I wish human beings behaved differently than this, but that’s the reality.
I first learned this way back when I was in a traditional marriage. The wife would get upset at me about something, I’d calmly refute her point with facts that proved her wrong, and she would get more upset, not less upset. This was very confusing to me at the time until I figured out what was going on; you can’t debate someone whose options are not rational.
So when your buddy says you’re immature for dating three women at a time (even though you’re not lying to any of them), or when your over-33 sister subtly implies you’re disgusting because you recently had sex with a woman 17 years younger than you (even though she’s a legal adult and really likes you), don’t try to convince these people that you’re right and they’re wrong. They are not experiencing rational thoughts, so getting them to change their mind is impossible (at least at that moment). You can and often should respond to them, but don’t try to convince them. That’s a waste of your time.
The Three Ways To Respond
With all that being said, there are three different ways to respond to shaming language. As to which to use, that depends on the person doing it, the particular scenario, your personality, and your level of confidence and outcome independence. These methods are a logical response, a sarcastic response, or a mitigation response. Again, the particular scenario and your personality will determine which method to use.
For example, if you’re a more confident guy, you might use the sarcastic method. However, if this conversation is happening over a dinner table with lots of other family members listening, the sarcastic method may not be appropriate, so you may want to go logical or mitigation instead. (Although, if you’re very outcome independent like me, you may just go with the sarcastic method anyways. Again, adjust for your own personality and each scenario.)
I also don’t recommend that you use these responses verbatim. Use the vibe and tone of these responses, but use your own words. The more authentic the response is, the more effective it will be.
Okay, here are some examples:
“Fighting/arguing is healthy.”
Logical Response: Not according to doctors. I’ll take their opinion over yours, thanks. And feel free to Google this if you don’t believe me.
Sarcastic Response: Well then, shit, you must have the healthiest relationship in the world. Should I ask your spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend how happy he/she is in your “healthy” relationship where you guys regularly fight?
Mitigation Response: Fighting is healthy. Right. Oooookay.
“You’re a man-whore/man-slut/player!”
Logical Response: I never lie to anyone, never hide anything, treat any woman I date with great respect, and use condoms. You’re going to have to be more specific about why that’s bad.
Sarcastic Response: Fuck yeah, it’s great! It’s okay if you’re jealous. (Or that your husband/boyfriend is.)
Mitigation Response: I don’t attack you for your lifestyle choices. Let’s just move on.
“You’re immature. You need to grow up.”
Logical Response: I make decent money, pay my own bills, take care of my health, and I’m happier than probably anyone else you know. I’m one of the most adult people you've ever met.
Sarcastic Response: Grow up? You mean take orders from a woman like you do? (Or give orders to a submissive man like you do?) Oh, that sounds GREAT! Where do I sign up?!? Hey everybody! I want to "grow up" and be a pussy like Joe here! Where do I sign up for that?
Mitigation Response: Someday when I’m older, I’ll probably settle down, just not the way you would. So I wouldn’t worry about it.
“If you really cared about me/her, you’d be jealous.”
Logical Response: If the guy had a bigger cock than me, and had six pack abs, and was better looking than me, and made more money than me, and was older than me, and was smarter than me, and was less needy than me, then yeah, I’d probably be jealous. For some reason, I’m not worried.
Sarcastic Response: Why?
Mitigation Response: I do care about her; just because I don’t feel the same negative feelings as you doesn’t mean that I don’t care. You’re just going to have to accept that not everyone feels things just like you.
“You have commitment issues/you’re a commitment-phobe.”
Logical Response: The actual divorce risk for people getting married today is around 70%. Cheating, men and women both, is at an all time, historic high. Marital dissatisfaction is also at an all time, historic high. Feel free to Google this stuff if you don’t believe me (coughblackdragonblogcough). You wear a seatbelt when you drive... does that mean you’re an “accident-phobe?” Or are you just being prudent based on real-world realities?
Sarcastic Response: I love commitment! But the thing about having one woman control whenever I do or don’t have sex... yeah, not so much.
Mitigation Response: Someday when I’m older, I’ll probably settle down, just not the way you would. So I wouldn’t worry about it.
“Our relationship is 50/50.”
Logical Response: 50/50 relationships are a myth. One person always has more authority over the other, at least to some degree, even if it’s a 60/40 relationship. I know one of you has more power than the other, and since you are the one declaring to everyone that it’s “50/50,” then it’s probably you.
Sarcastic Response: Your spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend tells you what to do 50% of the time and you obey? Really?
Mitigation Response: Okay.
“What’s wrong with a woman telling a man what to do? It shows love and respect.”
Logical Response: Maybe because slavery was outlawed in 1865. And maybe I prefer my balls attached.
Sarcastic Response: Okay, then what’s wrong with a man telling a woman what to do? It shows love and respect.
Mitigation Response: Love and respect are very important; I just have a different view of those things than you do.
“Real men get married.”
Logical Response: If this was 1952, yes. But today, the actual divorce risk for people getting married is around 70%. Cheating, men and women both, is at an all time, historic high. Marital dissatisfaction is also at an all time, historic high. Feel free to Google this stuff if you don’t believe me (coughblackdragonblogcough). Today, real men take careful steps to protect their hard-earned finances and children from the modern-day realities.
Sarcastic Response: Yeah, and most of you “real men” get divorced too. No thanks.
Mitigation Response: Someday when I’m older, I’ll probably settle down, just not the way you would. So I wouldn’t worry about it.
“You disrespect women.”
Logical Response: I never lie to anyone, never hide anything, treat any woman I date with great respect, and use condoms. You’re going to have to be more specific about how I disrespect anyone.
Sarcastic Response: Yes, yes. Making women regularly orgasm is very disrespectful.
Mitigation Response: You know I’m a good person, but if you actually think I disrespect women, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Those are just a few examples, but I think they give you a good idea on how to handle these kinds of things. The bottom line is to never be daunted by normal people living their mediocre, unhappy lives trying to make you into them. You’re not like them. Be thankful for it.
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Arthur 2017-04-06 05:34:40
As Tywin Lannister would say, 'The lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep.' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3kX3mzCSQ4&feature=youtu.be&t=1m47s
Ash 2017-04-06 05:42:58
Good advice. I have a grandma that uses shaming language quite a bit. She gets on me about having kids, like that's all there is to life. I told her that life is too awesome right now for me to change that by having kids. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Also, I like to dye my hair for fun sometimes but she says I shouldn't because "I'm not a teenager anymore," things like that. There are very few people I care who judge me, but in a way I do with her because I love her and I want her to think highly of me and be proud of me, especially since she's the only grandparent I have left, and I only have one parent (my dad) as well. But I would never conform to her old fashioned ways of life just because it would make her happy. I usually try for the logical responses, and I know I won't change her opinions, but I hope at the end of the day she can accept that the life I have works well for me and that's what matters. If she can't help but stay mad about it, well then I guess that's her issue.
Blackdragon 2017-04-06 06:01:21
‘The lion doesn’t concern himself with the opinions of the sheep.’It's a huge coincidence that you used that quote... You'll find out why when the next post here goes up on Monday.
FiveSix 2017-04-06 07:30:07
"I could care less what anyone thinks of me..." "Now that's what you want other people to think of you." Ha!
prepped 2017-04-06 08:05:56
Attacker: "........" You: "Yeah, I suppose you're right about that." Attacker: "Uh, uh, ..." Rinse, and repeat as necessary. Then, turn away, leave, change subject completely or start another conversation with someone else if in a group. If you're hounded further for agreeing with your attacker, then who's the misguided? The idiot? The asshole? Nothing is ever settled in these exchanges anyway. So, just let them have their empty victory. They may "win," but you are WINNING!
CrabRangoon 2017-04-06 08:07:18
Happy to see this one today BD! I was one of those many guys pestering you to do a post on shaming language so many thanks! One particular wife of a good buddy comes at me almost every time I see her with this shit. I know she doesn't really care about me as a person that much and honestly believe it's because I'm scary and threatening to her way of life. She's an extreme dominant and I think she worries I'll give the hubby ideas. Truth be told he's very beta and not going anywhere. Those kind of girls really think if I were to go to Vegas with their guy I'd forcibly take his dick and shove it into random pussies up and down the strip. Must suck to live in that constant state of worry, trying to control and monitor your partner's every move.
Johnny Ringo 2017-04-06 08:11:29
I don't get it a lot from friends and family, because they know I won't put up with it. However, our ladies get a lot of this from their friends/family because they choose to become non-nude competitive women wrestlers for our company. Probably goes without saying, but ladies who step outside the prison could benefit from this as well!
Tony 2017-04-06 08:27:47
If people are complaining about something and I'm feeling too lazy to come up with a response to it I usually rely on one of my two favorite words/phrases; "bummer" and "sad day". It's amazing how often I get to use those. For example, there was once a football game between the New York Giants and the San Francisco 49ers where the Giants won on the very last play of the game by committing an obvious penalty that the refs simply missed. After the game the refs admitted they made a mistake, and when the press asked the Giants' coach for his opinion he simply said "bummer".
CrabRangoon 2017-04-06 09:29:04
@Ash, It's never wise to make life altering decisions just to appease family members. Just remember, one day grams will be gone and you'll be stuck living with any decisions you made to keep her happy. Sounds like you're handling it the right way-keep living life on your terms and if she's mad about it, that's her problem.
Matt 2017-04-06 10:02:49
Great post! My 40th birthday is nearly here and I am getting ready for a good dose of shaming from those that "care" about me!
Anon. 2017-04-06 10:57:31
Now if only there was an equally effective way of making one's women immune to such abuse. Currently witnessing an attempt to divorce an abusive husband (with the legal side of things delayed by some technicalities) and lots of people, including her mother, have the vilest words to say for such an egregious attempt to pursue her happiness.
hilsey 2017-04-06 11:10:44
Mitigation is my default response to such things. Sometimes logic. Had this exact talk with my younger sister on her birthday: You concern yourself with how others want you to live your life? Why? So you can struggle and be miserable like them? Most people in your life aren't worthy of the privilege (always broke, depressed, unsatisfied, bored) to dictate your life. Kinda wish I had a brother or a close male cousin. I'd be the bad influence!
Gil Galad 2017-04-06 16:14:30
What about criticism done politely ? Is it ever worth it - the same way that you might debate a person here, or a friend elsewhere - to have a heated discussion (ie there's strong disagreement but no rudeness or yelling) with a family member about Alpha2.0 stuff or another hot issue ? Is the problem about just SP (which after all is expectable in any person you might discuss with, not just family), or is there something about family members that makes it a bad idea to do this with them ?
Anon. 2017-04-06 16:42:49
I think the only special thing about family members is that it may be hard to soft next them if their behavior necessitates it. Otherwise, why not have a rational discussion with anyone, why not give advice to someone interested in it, regardless of their relationship to you.
Blackdragon 2017-04-06 18:15:09
I know she doesn’t really care about me as a person that much and honestly believe it’s because I’m scary and threatening to her way of life. She’s an extreme dominant and I think she worries I’ll give the hubby ideas. Truth be told he’s very beta and not going anywhere.Another key point to all of this is to always practice extreme outcome independence when it comes to men in your family / social circle and just let things go with them. If he's a beta and his wife is a bitch, so be it. It's not your problem, it's his. Let it go. Don't worry about it. Be thankful you're not him.
Now if only there was an equally effective way of making one’s women immune to such abuse.That would be nice, but I don't think it's possible. Outcome independence regarding people in the family / social circle is very difficult for women. (It's difficult enough for men!)
What about criticism done politely ?Criticism done politely is not shaming language (nor drama), thus does not apply here.
Is it ever worth it – the same way that you might debate a person here, or a friend elsewhere – to have a heated discussion (ie there’s strong disagreement but no rudeness or yelling) with a family member about Alpha2.0 stuff or another hot issue ?Not about Alpha 2.0 stuff. You won't change their mind, as I said in the article.
Is the problem about just SP (which after all is expectable in any person you might discuss with, not just family), or is there something about family members that makes it a bad idea to do this with them ?It's both. SP and the fact that they already know you, and thus don't carry much weight. Compare that to a classy guy they just met saying the same things; they still won't agree, but the reaction will be very different.
Nitpicunt 2017-04-07 09:02:46
“What’s wrong with a woman telling a man what to do? It shows love and respect.” There´s always the possibility to laugh then stop abruptly and ask: Oh, that was not a joke? & “You have commitment issues/you’re a commitment-phobe.” There´s so much commitment in me that one woman is not enough to bear all of it.
Mayrick Dubois 2017-04-07 09:34:05
After reading the article and comments, I am stunned and amazed that family, friends, or other people would be so rude and nasty by asking those kind of questions and making those kind of comments. It is none of their business what other people do in their lives. It is the other person's choice and decision, not theirs. It is distasteful, arrogant, and way out of line to behave that way toward others. I believe it happens because misery loves company and they can't stand the fact that others are happy with their lives and decisions. That others have the guts to make decisions to be happy. They are too weak, scared, brain washed, etc, to make those kind of decisions for themselves. I NEVER ask people questions or make comments like that to others. It is none of my business. I am too busy with my own life, to care and worry about other people's lives. Plus, I just don't care. I do agree with BD's comment that it is very hard for women to be outcome independent. Women are wired and trained to care about other people's feelings, thoughts, opinions, and to always try to make others happy. Many times even over their own good and happiness. I am sure that family and friends would be even harder on women and that extreme pressure might keep many women from becoming outcome independent.
Joanna 2017-04-07 10:10:15
I'm a woman that cares very deeply for others which is why I will tell them to fuck right off but I'll add 'please' and a smile because I have manners.
Steve 2017-04-07 11:44:03
I think a lot of people that are free thinkers and/or live an "alternative" type of lifestyle such as the readers of BD's blogs, may be tempted to avoid most "normal" social functions such as parties and family gatherings. Not because you don't like anyone, you just can't relate to them. And you're not interested in hearing their opinions on your life, (which they always seem to want to share with you) or listen to them parrot what the fucking TV programed them to think. Or is this just me?
CrabRangoon 2017-04-07 12:47:53
@Steve, I hear ya. Becoming more Alpha 2.0 and waking up to a lot of the bullshit from SP puts you in the minority for sure. The vast majority of people are living under tons of SP and are very concerned with conforming to the masses so as not to look odd. Outcome Independence is probably one of the most crucial aspects to nail down to live this lifestyle. You won't be able to convince most folks this is legit and a better way. It's like trying to get people to change religions or political affiliations. You'll just get met with piss and vinegar.
Vitaly Krozvenik 2017-04-07 15:28:37
I think a lot of people that are free thinkers and/or live an “alternative” type of lifestyle such as the readers of BD’s blogs, may be tempted to avoid most “normal” social functions such as parties and family gatherings. Not because you don’t like anyone, you just can’t relate to them.Haha, 100% Correct! Can't Agree More. Also, In the context of debating someone whose options are not rational. I just want to add that, once a person has been sold on something(like SP), it takes 100x more energy to reverse the belief.
Alexandra 2017-04-07 16:51:30
If people in your social circle are constantly shaming you for your lifestyle, maybe it's time to find new people to socialize with. I used to hang out with a few friends every weekend but recently they've all gotten engaged, married and/or had kids. Even my best friend from university who swore she'd never have kids is now planning to get pregnant. Her and i used to have so many fun drunken adventures together and now when she throws parties they start at 4pm so people with children can attend. She tells me I'll "understand someday". Instead of spending my weekends hearing about who's kid learned to use the potty, I made new younger friends to go out with. And I date guys who aren't interested in having a family. It's like university again! I still see my old friends from time to time but I don't let their lifestyle drag me down.
joelsuf 2017-04-07 18:29:58
Drama is more serious and requires a soft next.I'm in deep disagreement here. I keep my circles VERY small, meaning everyone is on everyone's team, no matter what. So if you are my friend/lover/family member and you aren't 100% supportive, you are out. I only need like five people like in my life anyways. If anyone disagrees, they are gone. I can find someone else to share my life with. The mitigating responses in this article appear to be my default response to pretty much anyone who challenges me. It goes along the lines of "meh" or "...kay" or something like that. I literally have no time for anyone who wants to facilitate drama no matter how cool we are.
Blackdragon 2017-04-07 18:59:41
I think a lot of people that are free thinkers and/or live an “alternative” type of lifestyle such as the readers of BD’s blogs, may be tempted to avoid most “normal” social functions such as parties and family gatherings. Not because you don’t like anyone, you just can’t relate to them.Agree, though this is generally true with men like that who are older (over age 35) and have developed a stronger sense of self. For younger guys, it's hard for them to say no to big family gatherings (Christmas, reunions, etc).
If people in your social circle are constantly shaming you for your lifestyle, maybe it’s time to find new people to socialize with.Yup.
Captain 2017-04-08 07:52:18
This is all great advise and I just don't share much about my personal life with people who might disapprove. I am lucky though in that I have a supportive, open minded family that doesn't see a problem with me having a much younger OLTR. But even with my family I don't bring up OPEN part.
Captain 2017-04-08 08:03:47
In response to how women deal with shaming, they are generally just much more savvy than guys. They keep things on the down-low and tell white lies. For example, for the first year my OLTR just didn't tell her conservative parents that she had a boyfriend. Now she tells them she occasionally goes on a friendly date with a very nice older guy. Only her friends who are in their "slut" stage know that our relationship is open. I think the problem us guys have is we like to brag too much. In my case, one night while having beers with my old married buddies, I slipped up and couldn't resist telling them about my recent threesome with a 21 and 22 year old.
Vitaly Krozvenik 2017-04-08 12:26:42
I think the problem us guys have is we like to brag too much. In my case, one night while having beers with my old married buddies, I slipped up and couldn’t resist telling them about my recent threesome with a 21 and 22 year oldHaha, annoyingly true. It's very tempting.
Fred Flange in a deep state 2017-04-08 15:15:28
I only have to use this rarely, but it's at the ready when someone is being especially censorious. It's my trademark but I give y'all free license to use it so it catches on: "Thanks for shaming." Works online too. The ultimate non-apology.
fred 2017-04-08 17:05:59
Minor typo- "Love and respect is very important"- should read "are very important"
joelsuf 2017-04-08 17:58:37
I think the problem us guys have is we like to brag too much.Not sure about anyone else, but I despise people who brag. How beta must you be that you need to brag about yourself to make yourself look good in front of others? Its like seriously, try harder, try-hard.
Blackdragon 2017-04-09 05:12:49
Vincent 2017-04-10 02:46:36
Not sure about anyone else, but I despise people who brag. How beta must you be that you need to brag about yourself to make yourself look good in front of others?It doesn't always come in the form of "Hey you'll never guess what I did this weekend". Sometimes it's just a matter of not biting your tongue enough when someone asks you what you did this weekend. Because "just telling a story" to one, is "bragging" to another.
Gil Galad 2017-04-10 04:36:42
I personally don't find bragging inherently insecure or beta. If I think I'm awesome and am in the mood to say it out loud, I'll say it. Also the quasi-universality of men's need to *say it* when they've fucked a girl (I think someone once told a Kate-Upton-on-a-desert-island joke to this effect here) makes me think there's something biological going on there, a bit like women's need for facebook/instagram picture validation to quantify their number of orbiters and SMV (one of my little cousins, maybe 12-yo, recently became facebook friends with me and her first post I saw in my feed was a selfie with "nobody's perfect" - ie "please give me validation" - on it. I almost barfed). Now a guy who brags all the time will definitely raise my suspicion that there are some insecurities behind this, but doing it occasionally is just dudes being dudes. The point is that if we're not angry mgtow misogynists who think women are evil for doing some woman-specific stuff that we dislike, then we should also give men a pass for doing some illogical man-specific stuff.
joelsuf 2017-04-10 06:00:33
“just telling a story” to one, is “bragging” to another.Maybe I should have elaborated. The difference is in the delivery. Calmly talking about something cool that you did or some cool possession you have (according to you and not what everyone else thinks), using it only as a conversation piece and not caring about their reaction is alpha. Belligerently bragging about something you have or something you did in a direct attempt to win someone is over is beta, and even omega behavior if you didn't have it or do it. I see it at my job quite a bit, and I don't want to start a race debate, but it seems to be taking over partying black dudes. They approach party ratchets who I wouldn't touch with an over 9000 foot pole, spout some stupid complement, belligerently ask for her contact info (or even worse, give them their number), then talk about how they have a new car, money and a record deal or something. Then they'll proceed to struggle to buy a drink or some cigars and then get into the beat up hunk of metallic protoplasm that is their boys' "whip." THAT is the bragging I'm talking about 😉
roger 2017-04-11 23:51:49
I don't tollerate that sort of behaviour. If they question me nicely, then I give them a logical response. Or ask them why they think such and such, and what evidence they have to back up their case - then I get on my phone and google my evidence. If they are the insinuating kind, I stay away from them for good. They don't care, and are most likely trash talking me behind my back. I don't care about other peoples opinions if they are judgements. And I cut out family too.
JB 2017-04-13 10:34:49
One particular wife of a good buddy comes at me almost every time I see her with this shit. I know she doesn’t really care about me as a person that much and honestly believe it’s because I’m scary and threatening to her way of life. She’s an extreme dominant and I think she worries I’ll give the hubby ideas. Truth be told he’s very beta and not going anywhere. Those kind of girls really think if I were to go to Vegas with their guy I’d forcibly take his dick and shove it into random pussies up and down the strip. Must suck to live in that constant state of worry, trying to control and monitor your partner’s every move.CrabRangoon, one of my friends had a friend (a high school classmate) who had a wife like this. They went to play tennis once, and when he came back, she sniffed his clothes to see if he had perfume on them or something. She was very controlling (probably still is, but I haven't seen that guy in 14 years, and I am not sure if my friend has, either).
safespaceplaypen 2017-04-13 17:47:15
holy shit. I was literally having this discussion with some roommates a few minutes ago. They both have long time girlfriends and they were trying to tool me over "not fucking a hot chick" when i'm out trying to pick up girls. I said, "alright. that's fine. how about tonight we go out and you show me how its done?" and i got the predictable response - "i would but i have a girlfriend. sorry but we have excuses. you don't." Neither of these guys have ever picked up a girl, nor have they ever actually hit on a girl at a bar. But they do know i go out regularly to pick up girls (my game sucks, i'm a newb and am working hard at it lol). I tried explaining to them how they can still meet other women outside of their girlfriend, that they're not married and that there are no real obligations to stay tied to just their girlfriends. They can have fuck buddies and stuff if they wanted. I said this as a way to show them that their excuse wasn't valid, and if they really knew what they were talking about, they'd go out with me and show me how its done. Surprisingly they gave me a shit storm, calling me a "bad person" for even hinting at the idea of them cheating. I then explained they don't even have to sleep with the girl, just bounce her back to our apartment then tell her she's gotta leave. Still got the same response. I tried then arguing logically with them what their reasons were. At first it started with: (1) because you need to be loyal! Relationships are about loyalty and if you're fucking two girls then you're not loyal! - I wasn't really sure what they meant by this, so i didn't know what to say other than no, who says you can't just be loyal to both at the same time? which gave them blank stares So then I asked "so specifically, who says 'cheating' on your girlfriend is wrong?" and they said: (2) because that's how it works in society. Society says so! - I wasn't actually expecting this response because it was so obviously filled with a shit ton of holes. I really didn't know what to say. Both my roommates are really smart guys to. I was so surprised by this I just stopped talking for a good 10 seconds, which made it seem like they had the "upper hand" in the discussion and were more logical. I honestly didn't know where to go from here. Thinking that "cuz society says so" as an argument is so fucking retarded, i still can't believe they would say this lol. I then said, "lol society used to say the earth was flat, does that make it flat?" - Once again, no real response. But things got more heated lol and I realized it was 2 on 1 and no one was getting anywhere. I realized I was wasting my time. Once that last argument failed the resulted in simply calling me a "bad person". "So why do you still think sleeping with other women outside of your girl friend is wrong" I asked. "Because I'm a good person!" they'd say lol. "I'm not a bad person like you. I don't do that shit!" Now that 30 minutes or so has passed, i'm still annoyed about their reasoning and i'm still inclined to find something that'll convince them, but after reading this article i realized i was totally wasting my time. Lesson: next time just nod your head and say "that's cool bro, whatever you believe man."
MushroomFace 2017-04-14 03:24:11
I am currently in a 7 year relationship, soon to be in my 30's. I don't believe in marriage and I don't want children. Oh, I'm also a woman. On a daily basis people tell me I'm wrong and I will change my mind, I used to argue back but I've discovered that you can't change the minds of the ignorant and to end a conversation quicker I respond with "yup, okay then". It's sad that we live in a society of followers and we are the minority!
2017FreedomRelationshipsFun 2017-04-26 18:36:08
The number one way I deal with it is to be very discreet to begin with and I do not tell anyone any specific details of the women I am "dating." I agree with the old player mantra of the Discreet Frame "Don't kiss and tell anyone. Whatever we do in private stays between me and you only. Anything we do in private stays private." I have enough real life experience of dealing with people to know how most people really are so I've gone hard core and when it comes to my personal life I "Own the Frame" and my personal life is totally off limits. If anyone happens to observe something and says anything against my Freedom Lifestyle, Jobs I am working on, tries to convert me to their repressive religion or politics, tries to attack me, or says anything about my relationship status such as not being married; I stay focused/calm/cool/collected/maybe smile and say have a nice day, then I think "Thanks now I know not to associate with you in the future." I have never been married. I am not married. I am never going to get married. I will never again live in the same area as family, so that makes it easier to be discreet with women and to never tell my family anything about my "dating relationships." To many in my family I'm now a "man of mystery," as most are like "What the F. does that guy do," and I plan to keep it that way (it's part of my pre-planned strategy of living a Freedom Lifestyle). A few years ago with a relative I dropped some hints once about being with a female bikini model, and saying that I like to travel to meet hot women, but I've said nothing sense then. In my family there is only one other guy who has the personality like me to be a player, but even he is getting married, so I already know there is no point to even bring up the Alpha 2.0 type lifestyle with them. It appears that not many guys are REALLY seriously open to "picking-up women/getting laid often/not getting married." I call it being Sex-Positive, or being Sex-Negative. I used to think that most guys just wanted to "pick-up women/get laid," but that is not the case as the majority of guys are beta/Sex-Negative/do most of the societal "shaming language"/are lazy/and just want a girlfriend and eventually get married. It seems that the majority of women are Sex-Positive (in private/when discreet). Thus, this is my current perspective so I figure that about nine out of ten guys I meet (in business/as friends) are probably going to be "beta/Sex-Negative" so I rarely even talk about sexual topics with guys, and I figure that almost ten out of ten women are basically Sex-Positive and will eventually be interested in talking about sexual topics with me, and about one or two of those women likely are going to be interested in "Discreet dating in Private." I try to identify and then Ignore/Avoid the Sex-Negative people. I try to Find/identify and then associate with the Sex-Positive people. If any friend tries to shame/put down/attack me about anything then I have a one strike and they are out policy. If someone kept asking me about it then maybe I would do something like have ten rings in my pocket, take them out and say, "I've been married ten times this month."
Throughfare 2017-05-04 14:14:42
Here's a great walk-through of why you shouldn't try to change the thinking or feelings of someone who has no desire to leave the matrix (your blue-pill relatives, for example) https://www.theoatmeal.com/comics/believe
Jeff 2017-05-17 04:52:55
I shall now give anyone who tries to shame me the option of the logical response, the sarcastic response, or the mitigation response. I think it will be really entertaining as for most people three choices is two too many. Medium laugh after I ask which of the three choices they prefer, and a giant laugh when they cannot decide!!
MiamiGuy 2018-01-22 06:47:49
I love this article BD. I find that as I am gotten older I find I do less sarcastic responses and more mitigating responses. A mitigating response with a smile will disarm the other party, and really thats all I care about. However statements like this: "Real men get married.” still get under my skin. My stock response to the "Real men do x", is "Real men don't let others define what it means to be a man "
joelsuf 2018-07-27 10:40:06
I want to go back to this as I recently encountered something stupid and crazy. So I returned to my folks last year. My stepdad has a drinking problem (in that he makes threats and insults everyone around him when on the bottle and he hides alcohol). I'm moving away from there to my buddy up north soon (in a month or so) but want to stay there during the winters as it is in South Florida and I wouldn't have to deal with all the cold nonsense. I told him that I'm hard nexting him because of his drunken outbursts. Literally told him "because of your last outburst, I don't feel safe around you. I'm giving you a month to make a permanent decision. Its either the bottle or me. Choose the bottle, and you're dead to me." So I'm ready to hard next him. But would I need to hard next my mother as well since she is associated? I wouldn't mind hard nexting both and never see them again ever but really want to use that place as a winter timeshare of sorts haha. But so long as my stepdad is there, I refuse to set foot in that joint. Either way I'm good, I just want to hear some opinions.