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Pro’s and Con’s: Older Women vs. Younger Women
-By Caleb Jones
First, as always, we need to get our definitions straight. What exactly does “older” or “younger” mean?
Longtime readers know that in general, I separate the “older” vs. “younger” at age 33. As I’ve discussed many times here, when a woman crosses over age 33 (if not sooner), her ASD spikes into the stratosphere and her entire attitude about dating, men, and sex changes forever. Things that used to be enjoyable to her, like sex on the first or second date, or very casual sexual relationships, are now suddenly horrible and largely unacceptable.
That doesn’t mean dating women over 33 is 100% bad. In this article and this one I discuss the good things about dating women over 33 and how to navigate some of the problems they present.
“Younger” women, therefore, are women age 32 and under. A third category, Very Young Women or VYW are women under the age of 23. For purposes of this article, when I say “younger,” I’m talking about women age 18-32, and when I say “older,” I’m talking about women 33+, unless otherwise stated. It’s true there are several subcategories within these two broad groups, but I already covered them here.
Older vs. Younger Overview
Before I get into this, remember that everything I’m saying here is a generalization. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. There are some very independent, organized, responsible, mature 18 year-old girls, and there are some very low-ASD 38 year-olds who will bang you on the first date within an hour or two of meeting you with no resistance at all. Yeah, yeah. Doesn’t matter. In both cases, these women are unusual exceptions to the rule. They actually prove the rule. I am not interested in discussing the unusual exceptions to the rule (other than acknowledging that they do indeed exist) and I will ignore any comments complaining that I’m generalizing (because I am) and that there are rare, unusual exceptions out there (duh, I know).
Alrightee. Everything I say is within the context of the fast sex dating model I practice and teach, which is represented here (click to zoom):
In this model, there are three separate phases: the pickup phase (getting a woman to agree to meet with you one-on-one), the dating phase (getting to sex as fast as possible, ideally on the second date/meet within 3-4 hours of total face time), and the relationship management phase (ongoing sex via a casual or serious relationship, either of which are nonmonogamous).
Generally speaking, younger women are much easier in the pickup/dating phases, but tend to be harder and more work long-term in the relationship phase. The younger they are, the more these are both true. In other words, a 18 year-old is going to be very easy during pickup/dating phase and an absolute cluster fuck during the long-term relationship phase, whereas a 28 year-old is going to be less easy during pickup/dating and less difficult during the relationship phase.
Older women tend to be the exact opposite. They are absolute nightmares in the pickup/dating phases, but if you are somehow able to persevere, put up with all the ASD, bullshit, woman logic, and ridiculous demands (and in the case of the fast sex model, get very lucky with sex that occurs relatively quickly), then ongoing relationships tend to be easier and more reliable with these women.
The problem is the words fast sex. I personally don’t like waiting more than two or three dates with zero sex, since I don’t see the point, and there are too many pretty women in the world who are perfectly happy having sex on date two. If you feel the same way as I do, most relationships you’ll have will be with younger women (under age 33 or so) simply because most women over 33 won’t ever get to the point of having a relationship you, because they'll insist on making you wait too long for sex, causing you to next them and go have sex with the 26 year-old around the corner who won't make you wait.
Of course you could follow a more traditional, beta male type of dating, where you have five or more dates before you have sex (ugh, kill me), and thus get more relationships with older women, but getting to sex slowly like that isn’t what this blog or my books are about.
Other Pro’s and Con’s
With all that being said, here are a list of other pro’s and con’s. They are listed in no particular order.
1. Reliability and Scheduling - Older women win here. In terms of keeping a reliable schedule for meets and dates, younger women are difficult, and VYW are extremely difficult. Older women, even those who are single mothers, tend to be more reliable and less flaky. Granted, all women are flakey to some degree (it’s core part of being female), but the flaky factor drops significantly when a women gets over age 30 and again when she gets over age 35. VYW are a lot of fun, but god damn, the constant flaking, forgetting, rescheduling, emergencies and cancelling gets extremely irritating, particularly when you’re a busy guy juggling work, family, multiple women, Mission, etc.
2. Easy Compliance - Younger women win here, big time. Younger women are far more likely to go along with any agenda you set for them than older women, who tend to be strongly opinionated and set in their ways. (Older men are the same, by the way, including me.) As always, the younger the woman, the more compliant she tends to be (though there are certainly exceptions, particularly in the sugar daddy world).
3. Drama - Older women win here; not by much, but they do. Women over 33 indeed tend to be less drama overall in ongoing relationships. I’m not saying older women are zero drama, or even low drama. (All women are drama to some degree.) I’m saying that they tend to have less drama than younger women, who are usually more touchy, whiny, bitchy, and/or complain about stupid shit more often.
There are two reasons for this. Younger women tend to be more connected with the fact that they’re young and hot, therefore subconsciously think they can throw more drama and crap at a man, which he'll put up with. Also, younger men tend to put up with WAY more drama than older guys, and since younger women are more accustomed to younger men, they’re more acclimated to higher-drama relationships.
4. Quality of Sex - I’m going to surprise many people here, and piss off a lot of women, since Societal Programming says that older women are better in bed. It’s true that older women are more comfortable and understanding of their own bodies during sex than younger women, but are they better in bed than younger women?
All I can go from is my own experience, as well as the experience of the men I’ve communicated about this topic over many years. I’ve slept with a lot of older women and younger women, and I have to say that in general (and again, there are many exceptions), younger women tend to be better in bed.
I’m sorry, but it’s true. During sex, younger women tend to be more excited, enthusiastic, willing to try new things, willing to follow instructions, and are way less picky. There’s a light and eagerness in younger women’s eyes during sex that frankly, most older women don’t have. Many women in their 30's have had much of that "light" burned out of them by stressful kids, numerous failed relationships, financial pressures, and all kinds of other baggage. (Celebrity example: Britney Spears. Hit up YouTube, watch a few interviews of her when she was 19, then watch a few of her today. The first woman will be bubbly, enthusiastic and excited. The second woman is robotic with dead eyes.)
You could argue that some younger women are faking this enthusiasm during sex, and maybe under certain scenarios they are, but that reinforces my point; it shows they care more about your experience than an older woman who refuses to show any enthusiasm, fake or otherwise.
It’s true that older women tend to orgasm easier during sex since they know their own bodies, and that many younger women either can’t cum at all or take a very long time to do so. It’s also true that there are some older women who will absolutely blow your mind and body during sex. Yet overall, I have to say that younger women tend to be better here. Frankly, this surprised me, since before my conversion to Alpha Male 2.0 status many years ago, I bought into the false SP that said “older women are better in bed.”
5. Intelligence / Conversational Ability - This one is a little tricky, and it’s the only one where the two basic categories of “younger” and “older” aren’t enough. Instead, we need to break things back out into three categories: VYW (18-22 year olds), moderately young women (23-32 year-olds), and older women (33+).
One of my favorite things to do with a non-FB woman in my life is to just sit and talk to her. Many of you guys in my age group seem to agree this is an enjoyable thing to do with a woman.
Can you do this with VYW? No. Barring rare exceptions, you will not be able to do this with a woman this young, particularly if you are an older guy (over age 35). Many men point this out as one of the greatest disadvantages of younger women, and I agree (though I think drama and flakiness are bigger disadvantages). I analyzed this problem in detail here.
However, is there a noticeable difference between the conversational, intellectual ability of a woman in her mid to late 20’s vs. a woman over 33? In my experience, not really. Assuming both women are of reasonable intelligence, I don’t think women over 33 have any significant advantage in this area than younger women. (Of course there are low-intelligence idiots in any age range; I’m not talking about those, and those women should only be FB's anyway.)
Thus, the summary here is that women age 23 and over win here, women under 23 lose, and lose big.
6. Longevity of Relationships - Older women win here. If your objective is to get into a long, consistent relationship that’s more serious than a FB, the older the woman is, the better your odds become, regardless of if it’s an MLTR or OLTR (though OLTR will usually last longer than a MLTR if the woman is older). This actually flips the other way if we’re talking about FB’s; younger women will last far longer in FB’s than older women will.
Older women tend to be much less comfortable with casual relationships (unless they’re cheating on a husband/boyfriend and you’re the guy on the side). My longest FB relationships tended to be with younger women (including VYW) and my longest more serious relationships (MLTR’s, high-end MLTR’s and OLTR) tended to last longer with women who were either over 30 or close to it. Many of you have reflected the same experience (though again, there are always exceptions).
7. Bodies - Again, I’m going to surprise many people here. Societal Programming, particularly in the manosphere, preaches that younger women have perfect bodies, and as soon as they cross over age 30, their SMV instantly plummets and their bodies instantly get disgusting.
I have not found this to be the case, at all. Indeed, I have encountered a hell of a lot of the exact opposite; younger women with stretch marks and other weirdness from babies, weight gain, smoking weed, drinking alcohol, tats, and piercings, and women over 30, often well over 30, with perfect, amazing, tight, trim, teenager-like bodies.
When women hit 40, then yes, I start so see a consistent set of problems with the naked female body. But prior to 40, I have to say that I’ve encountered too many women in their 30’s with amazing bodies and too many women under 30 with average or problematic bodies.
I have found that women in their 20’s (or legal teens) just don’t give a shit about health, fitness, eating right, exercising, taking care of their skin, and staying thin, whereas women over 30’s tend to be obsessed with this stuff. I have definitely seen this reflected in the numerous naked bodies I’ve been up close and personal with in terms of women in both categories.
Am I saying that women in their 30’s have better bodies than women under 30? No, I can’t go that far. I’ve been with too many perfect-bodied younger women.
However, I can say that in terms of women under 40, I consider the quality of the average naked body from the average American woman in her 20’s and the average American woman in her 30’s about a tie. It’s about the same, on average, across the board, with about an equal spread of hot bodies and flawed bodies in both age groups. Over 40, most women do indeed lose that tie, so women under 40 definitely are better looking naked than those over 40. (Though this is rapidly changing as the entire human race continues to get younger-looking.)
I’m sure you could find some statistics that conflict with what I just said, i.e. perhaps statistically speaking there are more overweight women in their 30’s than in their 20’s. That might be true, but here's the thing; are you going to fuck a bunch of fat women in their 30’s? Of course not. So overweight women aren't even relevant here (unless that's what you're into).
Therefore, in terms of the women in their 30’s you’d actually have sex with, I don’t see a huge disparity in body quality between modern Western women in their 30's and modern Western women in their 20's. I just don’t. And I’ve looked. (Outside the West is an entirely different story, of course. On my flight back to the US from China recently, I saw a few women from Colombia... Oh my GOD.)
So Which Is Better?
Which are better? Younger or older? The answer is, it depends on who you are and what you want. If you want a bunch of fun, casual relationships, younger women are the way to go. If you're looking for a very long, serious relationship, going over age 33 might be a good idea (unless you yourself are younger than 33). If you're an older guy and want to bang younger chicks, then bang younger chicks. Have fun. But, if you're an older guy who wants to settle down for the long-term, choosing a much younger woman is insane. If fast sex is important to you, stick with younger women. You get the idea.
A smart Alpha 2.0 uses different age groups for different purposes. As just one example, my OLTR is in her late 30's, which is what I wanted. My FB's are all quite young, which again, is exactly what I wanted. You could consider FB's as great for younger women (including VYW) but raise the age bar a little for MLTR's and perhaps a little more for an OLTR (if OLTR is what you want).
My personal opinion is that I will still always focus on women under the age of 33 simply because I hate ASD and waiting for sex, though exceptions always slip through (including my current OLTR), particularly if my objective is something longer-term and more serious. You also have to adjust all of this based on your age. I just turned 45; if you’re 30 or 55 you’re going to prioritize things differently than I.
As always, start with what will make you long-term happy, and go from there. Forget about what society or women want for you.
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CSR 2017-04-27 06:19:15
Longtime readers know that in general, I separate the “older” vs. “younger” at age 33. As I’ve discussed many times here, when a woman crosses over age 33 (if not sooner), her ASD spikes into the stratosphere and her entire attitude about dating, men, and sex changes forever. Things that used to be enjoyable to her, like sex on the first or second date, or very casual sexual relationships, are now suddenly horrible and largely unacceptable.I think it's important to be aware of why this happens, and that's usually kids & The Wall. After age 30, most women who still don't have kids (most of them these days, specially in Europe) "suddenly" realize they don't have much time to have kids, so they immediately try to switch the program and find a suitable beta to settle down. They also know their peak years are gone. Yes they can still maintain their bodies in good shape but every single year added will be increasingly more and more difficult to do (thus the obsession with their appearance you talked about). Instinctively they realize they won't be able to pull guys as attractive as the ones they banged between age 20-25. If they perceive the guy's only into sex they dump him because they don't want to waste time unless they find him alpha enough to at least try him out for a while and see how it goes.
Davex55 2017-04-27 06:21:50
Having started reading your blog properly again a few months ago BD, I must say that I've found most of your content to be on point. Certainly on point here in the UK. My monogamous girlfriend of 12 months nexted me in January. Gorgeous, brunette, big boobed, tiny 21 year old. Having remembered your article on why you should ignore her, I accepted her new terms and got to work on myself. I grabbed a copy of your open relationships book and immediately set out to change my life the Alpha 2.0 way. Within 4 weeks, I managed to bag myself 4 stunning new girls. 1 MLTR and 3 FBs mostly using online dating/apps. The best part is.. after 2 months my old monogamous girlfriend came back to me. Whilst I was living life and embracing my new self, she was miserable and missed me. Because she's a high drama VYW, I've added her back on rotation temporarily as a low end MLTR (though if drama ensues she will be getting FB status.) My new girls are a good mix of ages, some younger and some older and for the most part I have noticed the trends you've described in this post. Pretty much bang on with the odd exceptions here and there. Anyway BD, consider this some sort of testimonial as a token of my appreciation. I hope you'll visit the UK soon so I can meet you face to face one day. Thanks a lot brother.
POB 2017-04-27 07:32:25
BD, you forgot to mention that women's hips enlarge a bit after labor, which makes the hip to waist ratio better in more mature women with kids (in my opinion) than VYW without kids. About the quality of sex, I'll agree but call it a very small advantage to younger chicks (talking about my personal experience here). Pick any hot divorced woman in her late 30s or early 40s, tease her the right way and she'll fuck you like her life depended on it. The caveat here is that you have to make them MLTRs soon because they're terrible FBs (unless they're already committed to another dude).
Marty 2017-04-27 07:58:03
As usual I think you nailed it with everything. But I really think the intelligence / conversation thing just can never be about age. Age is a silly thing in this category for me. And its funny because I've met a lot of older women who want to really make this their strong point. OMG how fucking over inflated are older chicks in their assessment of their value vs young girls in their ability to have a conversation. My ex was so intelligent, very very successful in her career. Able to talk about anything really and very interesting to talk to if you got her on the right conversation. But 90% of what she liked to talk about made me want to shoot myself in the head. Sure young girls don't have some life experience that you can talk about. But really, do you want to talk much about having kids, buying a house, dealing with a schools etc like they do? I don't. A high IQ young girl who is well read, educated, classy, understands what quantum mechanics is etc is always going to be way more interesting than an older chick who's had kids and is a bit worldly but doesn't have much else to offer. The smartest chicks I've ever met have been when they are really young including my current OLTR. They lack a bit of worldly experience (which can be frustrating because of simple understanding that most people would have about some things) but were so much more interesting than older chicks just because their brains are incredible. Even their ability to easily understand this stuff without getting all SP on it. Young or old has zero influence in this space to me. It's only about high IQ or low IQ and the ability to let go of SP and think for themselves. Age is irrelevant.
Days of Broken Arrows 2017-04-27 08:22:41
"Money Changes Everything." Nice post Blackdragon. But I didn't see the subject of money come up here. It matters when it comes to older women's inflated egos. When women are 18-26 (or so), they're usually pretty mellow about how much you earn because 1). They're not usually earning a lot themselves and 2). They assume everyone's coming onto their own and there is time to still make money. Fast-forward twenty years and these same women often move up in the workplace and are earning quite a bit. They expect men not only to be richer, but to foot their bills -- which are sometimes way, way out of control. This sense of entitlement is pretty ironic because you wind up talking to a mediocre older woman who is making demands on you to be the local Donald Trump (vacations, expensive dinners) while you think back on the HOT high school g/f you once had who was happy with a $4.50 round of mini-golf and a few slices of pizza. This, I think, is why a lot of men turn to younger women. And I think it plays into your comment about seeing Britney Spears being interviewed early on. There's something very appealing about seeing a younger woman become absolutely ecstatic because you're taking here away for a few days at the beach -- ANYWHERE at the beach. Conversely, it's a big turnoff when a dead-eyed older women starts asking about the hotel, how it's rated, what the "nice" restaurants are, whether there is valet parking, etc. The cynicism of the latter is a turn-off, no matter how hot the older woman.
epi 2017-04-27 09:20:43
Wow, I just wish I had the amount of experience to write a blog article like this.
Gil Galad 2017-04-27 09:54:53
I think your stance on younger vs older women's bodies has something to do with the greater importance you give to the body over the face. As you've said in the past, most guys look at a girl's face first then her body, and you do the opposite. When you look at a before-after picture of a hot chick at 18-20 and then at around 30, there's definitely a difference in favor of the younger one (unless she was fat, had spots, or was otherwise not good at showcasing her beauty); it's not apparent when you see the 30-yo in isolation ("wtf are you saying, she's hot!"), but IMO a woman's face is already on the decline as early as 26-28, even though it starts slow and really plummets in the late 40s. Then with the body, at equal levels of fitness, a 20-yo is ALWAYS gonna be hotter than a 35-yo, sorry. Your take on it remains correct because it's based on the statistical fact (if true) that older women take better care of their bodies; but if a guy always goes after trim girls anyway, younger ones will always have a hotter body and greater skin (seriously, 18-yo skin drives me fucking mad, there's no comparison). The exception is with girls who had delayed puberty and only got their woman curves at 20-25 instead of in their teens, but that's still younger women. Rant almost over, I just wanted to add one last thing: saggy butt and boobs is an age-related issue even when you're very fit, a bit like even a muscular man's pectorals are still gonna have a distinct kind of sag if he's 50+. Recently I fucked a VYW who said she hadn't worked out in months, and yet her ass was just mind-blowing: not 'hard' like female bodybuilders, and not fat either, but just incredibly supple (in a very slap-inviting way). I'm not aware that this is common on older chicks, even yoga instructor older chicks. And as a disclaimer, I don't mean to be harsh on older women in any way, just saying it as it is to me. I get routinely turned on by hot women in their 50s, btw.
hilsey 2017-04-27 10:50:21
"women in their 20’s (or legal teens) just don’t give a shit about health, fitness, eating right, exercising, taking care of their skin, and staying thin. " YUP we do not! I at the very least don't smoke, drink, and love my water + tea. But I have horrible sleeping habits. Barely exercise. I have those kind of bodies where I should eat *more*. I could probably benefit from eating more of the good stuff and hitting the weights. Thicker and toned!
Alex 2017-04-27 10:52:29
I agree with virtually everything here, but one thing I've noticed is a LOT of vyw who are hard-core provider hunters. On my last sarge of tinder, I ran into four provider hunters, all below the age of 23...madness! The common factor appears to be women/girls with divorced parents, seeking security elsewhere. I'm a younger guy, and it's very frustrating, as I thought this phenomenon was only with older women. Would be interesting to see if anyone else has noticed this, maybe the UK culture plays into this as well?
Blackdragon 2017-04-27 13:00:52
After age 30, most women who still don’t have kids (most of them these days, specially in Europe) “suddenly” realize they don’t have much time to have kids, so they immediately try to switch the program and find a suitable beta to settle down.That isn't the problem, or at least the entire problem, since as I've said many times before, this ASD spike at age 33 applies equally to women who have kids and women who do not. I have seen literally no variance between the two groups in this (and I've watched carefully and kept careful records on this).
Thanks a lot brother.You're very welcome and I'm glad I could help.
BD, you forgot to mention that women’s hips enlarge a bit after labor, which makes the hip to waist ratio better in more mature women with kids (in my opinion) than VYW without kids.Correct. Many VYW have no hips at all, even the hot ones. (Though to be fair, there is a percentage of men who don't like hips.)
About the quality of sex, I’ll agree but call it a very small advantage to younger chicks (talking about my personal experience here). Pick any hot divorced woman in her late 30s or early 40s, tease her the right way and she’ll fuck you like her life depended on it.Absolutely; very true. Many of those divorced 30's women are maniacs (in a good way).
OMG how fucking over inflated are older chicks in their assessment of their value vs young girls in their ability to have a conversation.I know. Many have bitched on this very blog about that.
It’s only about high IQ or low IQ and the ability to let go of SP and think for themselves. Age is irrelevant.Disagree. I've dated plenty of very smart, high-IQ women under the age of 22, that most of them (yes, there were exceptions) still couldn't carry on a conversation that interested me for more than 10-15 minutes. Age is indeed a factor.
Nice post Blackdragon. But I didn’t see the subject of money come up here.That was purposeful. That vast majority of men are not going to give a shit about how much money a woman has or doesn't have when evaluating one for sex or a relationship. Just think about it; you're on a first or second date with a woman who is super hot (to you), fun, happy, seemingly low-drama, and into you. Do you really give a shit how much money she makes? Be honest; you don't.
Fast-forward twenty years and these same women often move up in the workplace and are earning quite a bit. They expect men not only to be richer, but to foot their bills — which are sometimes way, way out of control.Correct, but again, most men aren't going to consider all this at the point of first having sex with someone.
Wow, I just wish I had the amount of experience to write a blog article like this.You can if you want. Nothing I've done sexually is out of reach by any typical guy willing to put in some work. (It's not like I've fucked 200 women or bang supermodels.)
When you look at a before-after picture of a hot chick at 18-20 and then at around 30, there’s definitely a difference in favor of the younger one (unless she was fat, had spots, or was otherwise not good at showcasing her beauty); it’s not apparent when you see the 30-yo in isolation (“wtf are you saying, she’s hot!”)But that's my point. When you see a super hot 30 year-old, how she looked 10 years ago isn't relevant to the interaction at all. As usual, Gil Galad, you're over-logicing all of this.
Then with the body, at equal levels of fitness, a 20-yo is ALWAYS gonna be hotter than a 35-yo, sorry.I know. That isn't what I said in the article. I suggest you re-read it, slowly. The problem, as I said, is Western 20 year-olds don't give a shit about fitness. I have fucked a lot of 20 year-old's in my day, and I promise you, there are TONS of 20 year-old girls who look like absolutely striking 9's or 10's when all their clothes are on. But when you get them completely naked, it's common (at least in the Western world) to see flabby stomachs, flabby thighs, weird-shaped butts, and all kinds of things are that are turn-offs to most men. This is on top of all the disgusting tats, piercings, and no hips that younger women tend to have these days (though I admit that some guys are into that crap), that many women in their 30's don't have (or don't have as much of).
one thing I’ve noticed is a LOT of vyw who are hard-core provider hunters. On my last sarge of tinder, I ran into four provider hunters, all below the age of 23…madness!I've heard this anecdotally myself, and I does appear that more VYW these days have boyfriends (I have sex with them anyway though). Yes, it's clear that the delusional Millennial generation has embraced cheating serial "monogamy" much more so than prior generations. When my generation (Gen X) were in their early 20's, far less women had boyfriends. They didn't want them. It's pretty sad, I agree. The good news is that, as I've said many times, women under the age of 23 aren't capable of monogamy at all, so you can still have sex with them even though they have young beta boyfriends. The vast majority of my younger FB's over the last few years had boyfriends. Doesn't matter. They aren't faithful.
Harry Flashman 2017-04-27 13:13:00
I agree with much of what you said, but not all. On the sex, yeah, it's pretty darn close with a slight advantage to younger women. Also, the spark in a young woman's eyes simply isn't there in the majority of older women. For me, that is huge. The bodies, I have to disagree with you there. While I have dated older women with hot bodies, including a former Olympian, over, 40 with a crazy hot body, I have to give the advantage to younger women. On conversation though, I very much disagree. Marty makes excellent points. Younger women who've never been married and don't have kids tend to be focused on and want to discuss career, politics, philosophy, art, history, you name it. I can't tell you how many mommies I've attempted to date who bored me to tears with endless conversations about what an a-hole her ex husband is, Sally's dance recital, Billy's math grades. Endless, boring, painful. The lives of older women tend to be consumed by their children and their ex. You simply don't run into this problem with younger women who are single and have no children, and are not focused on the struggles of raising a family as a single mom. For great conversation, I strongly prefer younger, happy, optimistic women.
CrabRangoon 2017-04-27 13:25:27
I'm getting a nice dose of both sides of the fence now. I have a couple girls that are 37-40 and just picked up one that's 23(I'm 39). There are def pros and cons to both to be sure. I got to sex pretty fast with the older ones though since one was from my social circle and one was recently separated. The young one has no desire to go on "dates" which is great for me-just grabbed a drink the first time we hung out. Some dumb beta from tinder took her out for some fancy dinner and ordered her an Uber Black care to get back and forth. There was no 2nd date.
Harry Flashman 2017-04-27 13:28:31
I almost forgot the most important point, financial expectations. Older women tend to be far, far more financially demanding. One would think that as a woman ages, and is not quite as physically attractive, she'd be less demanding. But that is exactly the opposite of reality. Young, smoking hot women will generally be impressed with and happy with modest gestures. A small gift, short trip to a beach town, dinner a decent restaurant, lawn tickets to a concert with a picnic, etc. These things generally make a younger woman very happy with you. An older woman is very often more demanding, because she has grown accustomed to a higher standard of living, often financed by her ex-husband. She will very often expect dinner at not just a nice restaurant, but the best and trendiest. She'll expect valet service, front row tickets to the show, first class travel and 4-5 stars accommodations. You can thrill a younger woman with this on occasion and she will be ecstatic, but she will generally not expect or demand it.
Gil Galad 2017-04-27 13:30:45
When you see a super hot 30 year-old, how she looked 10 years ago isn’t relevant to the interaction at allFair enough.
That isn’t what I said in the article. I suggest you re-read it, slowly.I wasn't disagreeing there, just commenting. That's why I put that part in bold, just acknowledging your take on the issue (as shown by the next sentence in that comment) and adding some personal thoughts.
Blackdragon 2017-04-27 13:46:45
The young one has no desire to go on “dates” which is great for me-just grabbed a drink the first time we hung out. Some dumb beta from tinder took her out for some fancy dinner and ordered her an Uber Black care to get back and forth. There was no 2nd date.Yep. https://blackdragonblog.com/2015/12/14/the-power-of-beta-males/
Older women tend to be far, far more financially demanding.Yes, but that's included in what I said in the article about the pickup/dating phase and the relationship phase. During the pickup and dating phases, hell yes, an over-33 is going to be FAR more financially demanding than a younger woman, and it's as shocking as it is insulting and annoying. This is one of the many reasons I avoid women over 33. However, in my experience at least, once you get into an ongoing relationship with an over-33, this gold-digging attitude tends to drop off sharpy. She won't be demanding expensive dates two months in. The problem, as I said, is that getting to this phase is probably impossible because she demands all these fucking fancy dates pre-sex, which as an Alpha you're probably not going to put up with. Conversely, a 23 year-old gold-digger will remain a gold-digger throughout the entire relationship. It won't let up at all; she'll just insta-dump you for the next beta if she doesn't get what she wants.
Duke 2017-04-27 16:43:37
This is on top of all the disgusting tats and piercings that younger women tend to have these daysDoes this mean you don't bang these girls, or do you overlook/tolerate it like the other undesirable traits VYW have like flaking and obsession with pop culture and social media? These girls tend to be the most freakiest/sluttiest IME.
Blackdragon 2017-04-27 16:58:52
Does this mean you don’t bang these girls, or do you overlook/tolerate it like the other undesirable traits VYW haveI have sex with them (as long as they're hot and the tats/piercings aren't too extreme) but I'm not nearly as excited about them.
like flakingThat's different. I don't tolerate frequently flaking in ongoing relationships. If a FB or MLTR keeps flaking I'll next her ass and focus on someone else.
and obsession with pop culture and social media?That doesn't bother me at all. I don't care what a FB or MLTR likes or dislikes. This obsession some manosphere men have about how horrible it is that young women love their cell phones is odd to me. Who cares? Is she hot? Is she low-drama? Great, I'm in. Who gives a shit if she worships her phone?
These girls tend to be the most freakiest/sluttiest IME.Not worth it in my opinion. I'd far rather have sex with a hot, normal, quiet, "boring" girl with no tats/piercings than a girl of identical appearance who is freaky as shit and sexually skilled with lots of tats/piercings.
Vril 2017-04-27 20:58:33
The reason why Britney Spears appears robotic with dead eyes today is because she was cloned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZYn5gdekhs
Greg 2017-04-28 00:04:13
I agree with what BD is saying, but there's also the reverse he hasn't mentioned, that may warrant a separate article, which is that most guys who are aged 30 and over, are incredibly logical, rational and have no sense of fun, which always backfires with younger chicks. With younger chicks, you have to learn how to get good at teasing them, which doesn't mean you have to turn into a clown or monkey. It's not something I'm good at myself, but I want to be. The British day game dating coach Yad, covers this in the YT vide below. He says if you're cold approaching younger girls, don't ramble on about yourself, as you'll look needy and she doesn't give a shit about you, but speak about her. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7KNgraia1Y
Kyle 2017-04-28 09:21:55
I think all the above are over-generalizations and apply solely to old men that deal with online game. Till my age (25 years old) I have experienced none of these traits.
Blackdragon 2017-04-28 10:16:08
most guys who are aged 30 and over, are incredibly logical, rational and have no sense of fun, which always backfires with younger chicks.True, though I would say 35 and over, not 30 and over. 30-35 for men is still "young" these days.
I think all the above are over-generalizations and apply solely to old men that deal with online game. Till my age (25 years old) I have experienced none of these traits.Then we need to look at your sample size... 1. How many women have you had sex with? 2. How many women over age 33 have you had in longer, consistent relationships? 3. How long were these relationships? 4. How many women under age 33 and under age 23 have you had in longer, consistent relationships? 5. How long were these relationships?
Kyle 2017-04-28 12:16:09
1. How many women have you had sex with?Around 50.
2. How many women over age 33 have you had in longer, consistent relationships?Only one short-term that was 4-5 sex meetups, as she was a single mother and quite flakey. The rest were ONSs
3. How long were these relationships?Already answered.
4. How many women under age 33 and under age 23 have you had in longer, consistent relationships?Around 5. The rest were ONSs.
5. How long were these relationships?1-5 months Well, I have not had many longer, consistent relationships, as you can see from my sample, but I have experienced both sky-rocket ASD during the dating phase from under 33 women and near-zero ASD from older ones. This is why I say it is bullshit 🙂
Blackdragon 2017-04-28 13:38:08
I have experienced both sky-rocket ASD during the dating phase from under 33 women and near-zero ASD from older ones. This is why I say it is bullshitCorrect, the over-33 ASD problem isn't going to affect you nearly as badly if you're a really young guy than if you're a man over 35. I've talked about that many times before (though I didn't mention it in the above article; maybe I should have). If all you're disagreeing with is the ASD thing, then you and I are in agreement. If you strongly disagree about the other things I described, realize that I vastly outnumber you on all of the numbers you cited, often by orders of magnitude, and I suggest you A) fuck more women, B) fuck 20+ women over the age of 33 and have a few long relationships with them (instead of just one), and D) have at least 10-15 relationships with younger women that go way past 1-5 months (my average is 15 months before the first LSFNTE, and many years if you count LSFNTE's, and that includes women of all ages), before you make assumptions that what I'm saying is inaccurate. Sample size is everything.
Roberto 2017-04-28 17:21:24
Now here’s a curious thing I’ve noticed. When I was younger – 19, 20, 21 – and a student (I’m only 26 now), I had a number of relationships with older women – late 30s mostly, one or two in the early 40s. We met at pubs or parties. These relationships were all about sex, which suited me – I realised early on that monogamy is not for me, though I never thought about it with the clarity that BD brings to the matter. Anyway, clearly what these women wanted was a young male body and some good sex, which some of them at least weren’t getting elsewhere (or so they said). However, almost all the women that I fuck now are my age (roughly) or younger. Indeed, in the past year I think from memory the oldest is 28. (Of course, I only have their say-so.) This doesn’t worry me – although I would add that older women can be great, and a well-preserved woman of 40 can have a great body – but this isn’t a situation that I have specifically sought out either. When hooking up with women I tend to take things as they come without analysing it too much, but I don’t seem to attract these “older” women in the way that I did only a few years ago. I’m still pretty much in as good shape I was then, but obviously my behaviour must be different (subtly, possibly) and I wonder if they don’t see a man in his mid- to late 20s as quite the same material for a nsa “fling” as they do a bloke of 19 or 20. I’m happy with my current women, so this is not a complaint at all, but it’s something I’ve noticed. Perhaps I should try to improve my game with women older than me anyway.
KryptoKate 2017-04-28 18:21:27
I think one factor people frequently overlook or don't realize is that the more experience one has with signalling, seducing, sleeping with, and being in relationships with the opposite sex, the more skilled one becomes. So the older person generally has the advantage in being more skilled at those things -- IF THEY CHOOSE TO MAKE THE EFFORT -- because they usually have more experience. Not always but usually. This is despite the fact that everything else about them is not better and is probably crappier. Also people don't think of attracting and getting the opposite sex as a skill, which is stupid because it totally is. Instead they seem to think it's some magical inborne talent that exists or doesn't. When I was 20 I was the type of person that would literally turn every single head everywhere I went and could reliably count on being the most attractive woman in any venue. I was also extremely awkward with anyone I didn't know, and still scared of any men that weren't pretty feminine. As a result, I basically had no standards and got with some pretty big losers. I really would give almost any man who had the guts to actually hit on me (which wasn't many bc I think I was TOO hot back then), who wasn't ugly, a go. I know lots of women who say the same. Nowadays it might be different because phones give men more courage about rejection so hot girls get hit on way more and therefore probably gain confidence more quickly. I am certainly not as attractive in my late 30s as I was at 20, even though I am more in shape and the same weight and still think I turn heads. But of course I don't have the same bouncy gravity defying skin and ultra glossy hair I did at 20. Yet I pull guys that are WAY higher quality now. I really don't have any explanation for that other than that I just have more experience with appropriately signaling, flirting with, and getting a guy so I'm better at it now. I had no ability to talk to a stranger and certainly no abilty to make a stranger comfortable, at 20. I could barely make eye contact. I'm just better at people now. But yeah, other than that there is nothing about me that is better than when I was 20. Conversationally I am not any more or less interesting to talk to between 20 and now, I was always interesting once I felt comfortable with someone, and always liked to talk about politics and science and economics and never about boring topics. Sex-wise I would guess it's about the same although now I can make eye contact and before I couldn't so maybe slightly better now. Nothing is better about me now except my social abilities and status. It is similar with guys. The older and more experienced you are, the better you are at seducing and keeping a woman, even though you don't look as good as you used to and probably don't have as much energy and are probably more of a pain in the ass in many ways. Older guys are pretty rigid and set in their ways. There's not much about them that is better, really. EXCEPT that they are more experienced with women and people in general (or at least, they should be), and that can count for a LOT. Simple social dominance is very important. It's not that different in the work environment. Young people often have better, fresher technical skills and energy and by all accounts they SHOULD be more valuable to an employer. But in reality they haven't yet developed the confidence and experience to be able to command power and respect, which older people can become very good at even if their actual technical/work skills are shittier. I would say that's true of me, my skills when I first got out of school were much sharper than they are now. But I have a decade of dealing with people and my industry and I know how to project control and power and experience and confidence and that counts for a lot, so I can obtain and keep clients much better now even though my actual value is probably lower (sh don't tell anyone!). And that's why older people get paid way more and generally get more perks and power at work, even though they often aren't REALLY more valuable than younger employees. It's more about social dominance and status than true value. Again, social dominance counts for a lot. It shouldn't, arguably, but it does. This is true in the animal kingdom as well if you watch nature shows...a young animal that tries to mate often fails many times before succeeding. And it's not like they aren't healthy or strong enough or whatever, it's just purely lack of courage/experience. For chimps, the older chimps, male and female, always dominate the younger with mating even though they are not as vibrant and healthy and fertile. At some point a line is crossed where one's aging body and mind are so much less appealing than a younger person at their peak that all your experience in interpersonal relating and courting the opposite sex no longer matters. Same goes in business, though much later, thankfully. I've always been pretty looks-oriented, so it surprises me to say this because when I was younger I always thought my life would be over at age 30. Instead the quality of man I have now is so vastly superior to some of the men I had when I was younger that it is actually embarrassing to compare. So I've been surprised at how much plain old social experience and getting comfortable with other humans counts and even can make up for pure physical attraction and beauty (not totally, but a bit). And yeah I exercise way more now than I did at 20, which was never, lol. And I totally smoked and drank and ate fast food all the time back then and it didn't matter. It definitely requires way more effort to maintain the older you get. Anyway my response is too long but I agree with all your points here. BTW, most of your points actually apply to men, too, not that you care about that. 🙂
Captain 2017-04-29 13:19:17
Culture has a lot to do with it too. Here in Southern California older women are painfully full of themselves and demanding, whereas younger women tend to be more open minded, less full of themselves and not nearly as demanding. In Western Europe, where I've also spent years, older women tend to have much more style than younger women and I've found they are usually still open minded yet often less full of themselves than younger women. From my limited experience in SE Asia and Latin America it's a wash.
Blackdragon 2017-04-29 13:39:48
most of your points actually apply to men, too, not that you care about thatAbsolutely, both the pro's and the con's, at least most of them. And yes, I don't care. That's women's problem.
Culture has a lot to do with it too.True.
d. beguiled 2017-04-29 16:28:05
I have a question for Kate. You make many cogent, intelligent comments here. You obviously have plenty to say. Your comments are easily the length of a blog post. Blackdragon gave you and your female cohort a blog of your own. And yet none of you post there anymore. Why is that?
Gil Galad 2017-04-29 16:46:39
I have a question for KateLOL, as I've said in the past, Kate should've had her own blog for quite some time. If she went back and copied all her past comments, she'd have enough material for her blog's first year or so. I imagine many readers (men and women but especially women) will dislike it - precisely because the content will be quite red pill -, but criticism breeds popularity (else why would BD's blog be so popular - not to downplay its objective qualities of course). And it would raise dating awareness in the female population TREMENDOUSLY, I don't even know where to begin. She'd knock some sense into millions of women, and many men too.
Anon. 2017-04-29 17:25:44
Following the Alpha 2.0 spirit, let me state that personally, I don't care where Kate publishes her thoughts as long as I have easy access to them : ) --- and thank you Kate for your exceptionally insightful, stereotype-shattering and thought-provoking posts. Getting a sizable audience for a blog is hard work (apparently girls-with-game failed in that regard). I think most of us are here because there's already a community here, primarily consisting of mature men who have overcome their "someone's wrong on the internet" reflex (or at least are able to control it, not letting it stray too far outside the box ; ). Speaking of blogs, the real question is why aren't blog entries cross-posted to the new and shiny Alpha 2.0 Community. With some effort, the comments can even be unified.
Max 2017-04-29 18:14:24
Blackdragon: While its remarkable that you base your conclusions on your own extensive field experience instead of just theories and especulation I wonder if your conclusions are representative of the whole population of the US or of the city where you live given that you get the majority of your dates come from online game so your sample includes mostly the women who use dating sites and answer your messages. There are many legal teenagers who get drunk and fuck lots of guys but there are others who are still virgins and are waiting for a "special moment" or "true love" to lose their v-card. I know several and there is probably an statistic about this to back me up. If you want to have quick sex then you should avoid these women VYW but it helps that they are probably less likely that their more promiscous peers to use online dating. I also think that in day game or night game, an older guy would save time by avoiding VYW as a large percentaje would reject him on the basis of his age alone. With older young women his age will be less of an issue. On online dating you don't lose time as you message lots of VYW at once and only those for whom your age isn't a deal breaker will answer and take your time. I'm not an older guy yet so I'm just especulating about this. What I know for fact is that a big advantage of online game (and also night club game) is that it helps filter out underage VYW. When sarging VWY with day game its very important to find out early in the interaction if they are over 18 so that you don't waste time if that isn't the case. Even in colleges campus I've met lots of girls who looked in their early 20's but were still 17 so you have to be very careful and eject if in doubt. I know girls can lie when registering on a dating site or get fake IDs to get into clubs but its still better than nothing.
AnonDude 2017-04-30 01:20:16
Blackdragon gave you and your female cohort a blog of your own. And yet none of you post there anymore.Yeah and BD actually suggested that blog to a girl asking him for advice in the comments on his previous post here so I guess he didn't give up on it yet. It's a bit odd since the blog seems all but dead at this point. Also, that blog has some of the ugliest blog design ever. Just a bunch of generic pictures with no titles if you don't hover your mouse over them with huge intrusive menu on the left. It's even worse on mobile. I know I'm not the target audience there but do women actually like that kind of a design?
K 2017-04-30 02:27:08
I know I’m not the target audience there but do women actually like that kind of a design?I don't. However, I would read it regardless of its design if the content were as enlightening or at least entertaining as the majority of blog posts and comments on here, though. The problem of Girls with Game could be several things - just speculating here: i) unclear or unattractive overarching message (for the target audience); I wonder - what percentage of women (consciously) aim to be dating or seducing multiple men? As Debbie Dooley says, if you want to sell clean energy to a conservative, you will speak of energy choice, energy freedom, national security, competition and innovation, not put them off upfront by climate change... ii) unavailability/low motivation of authors to contribute frequently (it also took BD some years to develop his regular reader/commenter group) and/or figure out an effective marketing approach.
Franklin 2017-04-30 06:20:00
Granted, all women are flakey to some degree (it’s core part of being female)To my delight, my OLTR lady has been pretty reliable with me for as long as I can remember. With her female friends, on the other hand, it's a completely different story. They flake on each other all the time, especially the younger ones (as you pointed out). With each other, they don't seem to care; they respond to flaking as if it's completely normal and expected behavior (and, in the female world, I suppose it is).
Blackdragon 2017-04-30 18:23:54
I wonder if your conclusions are representative of the whole population of the USYes, my conclusions are certainly based on American women. As another posted correctly noted above, other countries may differ (though not greatly). or of the city where you live No; women in other other US cities are not radicaly different; I have a lot of data from men all over the us over the last 10 years and all of it seems to mesh with what I said above (in general at least). More detail on that here. I've also fucked a lot of women who live in different cities across the US, and I have seen no variation.
given that you get the majority of your dates come from online game so your sample includes mostly the women who use dating sites and answer your messagesYounger/older women are not going to be any different if you meet them from daygame or social circle game. Night game, I'm not sure, though based on what I've read, younger women are about the same and the older women have less ASD.
There are many legal teenagers who get drunk and fuck lots of guys but there are others who are still virgins and are waiting for a “special moment” or “true love” to lose their v-card. I know several and there is probably an statistic about this to back me up.These rare exception women are not in the dating pool (online or daygame or whatever) and thus are not relevant to this discussion.
I also think that in day game or night game, an older guy would save time by avoiding VYW as a large percentaje would reject him on the basis of his age alone.That's true with all game, including online. My response rates with much younger women on normal dating sites are quite terrible. (But I still get laid anyway; see below.)
With older young women his age will be less of an issue.Yes, but they take way longer to fuck, thus disqualifying them. I can go on a dating site right now and fill my calendar with dates with over-33 women very easily and very fast, with virtually zero effort. But I would never do that, since at least 90% of these women would demand at least 3 dates before sex occurs, in many cases 4 dates, 5, or even more. Or, I can go online, message younger women at much worse response rates, get less first dates, but have sex with most (or in some cases, all) of those women very fast, within 3 hours grand total (and often much less than that). I choose the second option. Much easier and and far more efficient, regardless of the lower response rates.
I’m not an older guy yet so I’m just especulating about this.Well, I am an older guy, so I can actually tell you how this actually works instead of speculating.
To my delight, my OLTR lady has been pretty reliable with me for as long as I can remember. With her female friends, on the other hand, it’s a completely different story. They flake on each other all the time, especially the younger ones (as you pointed out). With each other, they don’t seem to care; they respond to flaking as if it’s completely normal and expected behavior (and, in the female world, I suppose it is).Yep!
Blackdragon 2017-04-30 18:32:40
Regarding Girls With Game, late last year it grew more difficult to get most of the writers to adhere to deadlines, and I got too busy to follow up with all of them. A few months later I decided to perhaps shut the site down, when to my surprise, when I checked, the site was still getting regular traffic and we were still getting regular emails in from women in the audience who had lots of questions they really wanted answered. So as soon as I can fit it in my schedule, I'm going to re-start that site with some new writers and some old ones. Clearly there is a niche audience of women who are very interested in this stuff. One last thing; as I already said in the comments when I first announced the site, I absolutely do not give a rat fuck what any man thinks about how the site looks. The site isn't for men, I couldn't care less. If the readership for the site grows, I will start taking polls and asking for feedback from the female readers and modify the site accordingly.
Lovergirl 2017-04-30 22:23:18
If I were making money off Girls with Game I could probably make time to write more. Since I'm not, it's significantly lower on my priority list than all the other things I'm trying to get done. That's why I personally haven't been writing. I've been super busy. I can't really compare older women vs younger women since I'm not a guy dating either. All I can do is roll my eyes at all the old guys who inevitably talk trash on older women and go on and on about younger women in the comments. It's like par for the course. I haven't really noticed any big physical differences after turning 40. Having my first baby made my body go downhill, but I was 23 and it doesn't seem to have gotten much worse since then. Like kryptokate mentioned- I've only noticed the quality of men going up as I get older, not down, and that's what matters to women so we don't really care that men think we should be crying over the men that younger women are getting. Most younger women, even drop dead gorgeous ones- tend to end up with the losers. It takes most women time to learn how to weed them out.
Mayrick Dubois 2017-05-01 16:49:11
BD, a very good accurate article. You hit it on the head with the differences between young and older women. As an older woman in my mid 40's, I have been noticing the traits in older women that you mentioned. I am also around many VYW and young women, since my daughter in in that category, and noticed the traits that you mentioned for young women. The one category that you discussed that I find really distressing is the difference in the attitude about enjoyment of sex between young women and older women. Unfortunately, you are correct that many older women don't have the light in their eyes and excitement about sex that younger women have. That is such a shame. I think older women do themselves a disservice by not allowing themselves or wanting to enjoy sex. It is a wonderful part of life that has many great qualities and could be a great fun part of their lives. It is great and healthy mentally and physically to have a good sex life. I do agree with Kate's comment that these categories could also apply to men, though I have found men to be slightly different. I am usually more interested and attracted to older men because they have the qualities more often then younger men that I find attractive and important. However, I have met some younger men that also have those qualities.There are of course exceptions, with older and younger men, just like in women. I think the bottom line is just how you ended the article....it just depends on what traits you want and think are important in a person and you can focus more on a certain age group depending on your priorities.
KryptoKate 2017-05-01 18:09:56
@ d. beguiled Thanks, I have thought about it plenty of times but I guess I don't have the initiative, discipline, or consistent free time. My work schedule is very variable and unpredictable. Reading and commenting on this stuff is my leisure, for me it's fun and something to do when I have the time, often at the end of the day. I like reading smart people's thoughts and getting different perspectives. So I suppose I could apply discipline to a blog if I thought there was a possibility of revenue, but that is pretty hard to achieve, there is tons of content competing for people's attention. Also, I have said too much stuff that would get me in trouble with pretty much everyone I know IRL...friends, family, work colleagues. Pissing people off and creating controversy is good for traffic but also increases the risk of someone trying to figure out who you are and out you. I don't know if Caleb was always "out" or when that happened but I prefer to not have to censor myself as being able to say what I actually think is exactly why I like the internet. Since I can't say this stuff to almost anyone in real life.
Joe K 2017-05-02 09:43:23
Something has happened in the last 30 years whereby there's been a MASSIVE cultural and technological shift in the way 30/40/even 50-something women can present themselves physically. On the 'putting in the work' side, there's yoga/pilates/blah blah gym-trends everywhere. That's pretty much it, but it makes a huge difference in the appearance of, say, a 45 year old woman. On the cosmetic side, holy shit do today's older women have monumental advantages over their same-age sisters of yesteryear. Hair coloring, botox, mass-marketed plastic surgery, cultural emphasis on what types of clothing designs/colors/sizes are 'becoming' for various skin tones/body types/hair colors. I mean, look at a couple photos of the female pop band Wilson Phillips circa 1990. Then try to find a photo of them from ~2010 or so. All 3 of them look MUCH better 20 years later, even though they now have zero modern pop-culture relevance (save nostalgia circuit perhaps). And they're a good example, but I'm not just cherry-picking. Everywhere I go on the coastal US I'm seeing more and more relatively-attractive, doable 40 and 50 something women who look as good as they humanly can for their age, and in tow are their I-don't-give-a-fuck husbands with big guts, receding hairlines, and dime-a-dozen golf attire. Anyhow, that's my take on why what BD says about older women's attractiveness is accurate - and it wouldn't make sense if not for these massive 'improvements' in how women present themselves today in the 2010s.
Blackdragon 2017-05-02 13:01:28
Something has happened in the last 30 years whereby there’s been a MASSIVE cultural and technological shift in the way 30/40/even 50-something women can present themselves physically.Correct. And this will become more and more the case, to the point where, at some point in our lifetimes, you literally won't be able to tell the difference between a 40 year-old woman and a 21 year-old woman, rendering much of this age discussion moot. (Much, though not all; mentally she'll still be 40, with all the pro's and con's that implies.)
Mayrick Dubois 2017-05-02 14:51:28
That is such a true point. I remember seeing pictures of my grandmothers in their mid forties and they looked and dressed old. I remember being shocked at how young they really were in the pictures. Women today have many ways to take care of themselves and have technology as well to help them look and feel young that women did not have years ago. BD's follow up comment to this I feel is very correct. Technology will continue to advance with time to allow people to look and feel younger well into their much later adult years.
KryptoKate 2017-05-02 16:32:40
@ Joe Oh for sure. I wouldn't even want to know what I looked like naturally at my age without laser sun damage removal, braces, skincare, etc. People always think I am 10-15 years younger than my boyfriend when they meet us but we are the same age. Because of all the ways to make yourself look better, I actually have a problem now where people, especially younger people, assume that I am younger than I am and then get weirded out when they find out how old I actually am. I always try to throw in a reference to my age right away because of that. Of course, guys can take advantage of that stuff too, when they care to. Gay guys who make the effort all look 10-15 years younger than they used to as well. Where I live a lot of single/divorced guys over 40 use botox and fillers. People are definitely not getting genetically better looking, kids are just as funny looking as always. But the technology and options to make yourself appear better create a totally different situation. Most men nowadays would not even recognize an 18 year old beauty queen from 100 years as marginally attractive by today's standards, because today's standards involve a level of artificiality and exaggeration that isn't seen in nature. Just making hair dye and makeup available was a huge difference, but once you get into plastic surgery, forget it. You scroll through pics and little changes make a huge difference: http://www.drmotykie.com/procedure/buccal-lipectomy/
roger 2017-05-03 20:52:10
5 dates is not too much to wait for sex. Obviously if she is demanding luxurious dates then you have an issue. Perhaps when you try to excalate to sex, and she is resistant, instead of nexting; could you question her; "Are you just trying to get free dinners out of me?" It seems a bit like blackmail or negging, you'd have to use a mellow tone. "Aren't you attracted to me?" Seriously, but you also have to be careful, you don't want to make her feel as if you tricked her into sex. @Kyle ASD is a PUA term that Blackdragon adopted. Though he says it is real, I feel it is not a correct term. It's more complex, while many of the factors that apply to it hold true. Here are a few of the major factors (different and independent of each other) are: Older women are more experienced and wish to weed out casual men - they do not want to be a FB. They may have higher standards (similar to above), and wish to evaluate you quite a bit before jumping in. Obviously searching for a "provider aka daddy" is a major one. Anxiety about their body. Perhaps they are searching for Beta's, perhaps they are done with exciting 'badboys'.
Blackdragon 2017-05-03 23:52:31
5 dates is not too much to wait for sex.I hope you don't mean that, but if you do, I feel sorry for you. Multiply 5 dates with zero sex times every woman you try to have sex with, and have fun going on perhaps hundreds of dates with no sex throughout your lifetime. I'd rather kill myself, but that's me.
Obviously if she is demanding luxurious dates then you have an issue.No, even five dates that cost me zero dollars and I have an issue. That's way too much time to spend per woman, and I have more important uses for my time (namely getting laid within 3 hours on two dates, making money, and working on my Mission).
JEB 2017-05-04 01:27:46
5 dates is not too much to wait for sex. ... Perhaps they are searching for Beta’s, perhaps they are done with exciting ‘badboys’.If you wait 5 dates to go for sex (or go for it but she declines, and you keep dating her anyway), she knows for sure that you're a beta. If you prefer to be a beta, which many guys do, that's completely fine. Feel free to satisfy the "beta bucks" aspect of her dualistic sexual strategy, knowing that she's fucked 10-20-30-100 Alphas without requiring 5 dates before becoming intimate before she's finally settled for you after she's finally become a quality woman. Or, you could choose not to follow the SP about forgiving her past indiscretions and choose not to play along with whatever she's now trying to brand herself with - and fuck somebody else.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-05-04 03:32:52
Political correctness detected: Employing red pill countermeasures now:
5 dates is not too much to wait for sex.Is this some kind of a sarcastic piece of nonsense you pulled from Jezebel or some worthless feminist site? Because most people here won't find it amusing.
Obviously if she is demanding luxurious dates then you have an issue.It doesn't matter what she's "demanding." You don't give in to a single "demand." After sleeping with many women who have fucked me without hesitation on the second date (my girlfriend and I fucked on the first), there is no reason in hell I'd waste my time like you recommend. Give me one good reason to put up with a woman like that when the one next to her will fuck me now!
Perhaps when you try to excalate to sex, and she is resistant, instead of nexting; could you question her;You don't get it. The act of resistance is a turn off. If she resists, my penis can't get hard. Which means, even if she gives me a reason, it doesn't matter because I'm not horny for her anymore and never will be again. After having wild sex with multiple women on the first date, there is nothing some old prude can possibly say that could make my dick hard again. So I have to next her. Whether I do it before or after her explanation is irrelevant. The point is that her resisting sex is such a turn off to me that there is nothing she can do or say to compensate for it! If some prude in her 30s or 40s refuses to fuck me by the end of the second or third date tops, she's done and completely out of my life - unless I end up fucking her 18 year old daughter on the first date and I see mommy around the house again watching Grey's Anatomy or "I Love Lucy!" It's funny, I was talking to my girlfriend's lesbian fuck buddy's brother recently (he's 14) and he was pissed that some snobby girl in his class rejected him. I said to him - "don't worry, just get revenge by fucking her future daughter." After I explained it, he felt better.
“Are you just trying to get free dinners out of me?”Only a beta would ask such a needy question.
It seems a bit like blackmail or negging, you’d have to use a mellow tone. “Aren’t you attracted to me?”That's even more beta. In fact, "aren't you attracted to me?" is an omega question.
Seriously, but you also have to be careful, you don’t want to make her feel as if you tricked her into sex.Why not? How can an adult be "tricked" into sex? Did she trip and fall on my dick? Did I lie to her by claiming I'm a sexy CIA agent who needs to fuck her to prevent World War III? You're talking like a PC feminist bro! Check your SJW. You're treating women like children with no free will.
ASD is a PUA term that Blackdragon adopted. Though he says it is real, I feel it is not a correct term. It’s more complex, while many of the factors that apply to it hold true.ASD is when a woman is very attracted to you but declares war on her own desires due to mainstream brainwashing that sex is bad, or that sex this soon is bad. This may include slut shaming, outrage from her obese sister Becky who thinks sex before love is wrong while staring at her chocolate cake and chanting "someday my prince will come," and so forth. I assure you, sir, ASD is very, very real.
Older women are more experienced and wish to weed out casual men – they do not want to be a FB.This is a major problem and an instant deal breaker. Everyone you have sex with starts out at the fuck buddy level, without exception. So if she doesn't want a fuck buddy, doesn't that mean she plans on never having sex again? Ah, but wait, that means she wants a monogamous boyfriend before first time sex! Agreeing to be a woman's boyfriend (mono or otherwise) before we've even had sex is unacceptable! So no! Nexting her is the only choice! Her entire way of thinking tells me she has zero place in my life.
They may have higher standardsI have extremely high standards for a girlfriend. But this doesn't mean I don't have sex quickly. If she has "high standards" for sex, then I'll fuck her low standards daughter instead. Would you shop at a store with high prices when a store right next to it has lower prices for identical or higher quality? If so, why? Also, do you know how the free market (which includes the sex market) works? Because it seems like you're talking out of your idealistic ass.
(similar to above), and wish to evaluate you quite a bit before jumping in.She can "evaluate me" during sex. In fact, sex is the best way to get to know someone quicker. Why choose the long way to get to know me?
Obviously searching for a “provider aka daddy” is a major one.Which is unacceptable. Next.
Anxiety about their body.I don't date low self esteem women. They're a chore. Next.
Perhaps they are searching for Beta’s, perhaps they are done with exciting ‘badboys’.Then my only option is to next her. Explain again why sticking around is the superior choice when a 21 year old standing next to her will fuck me now?
Jack Outside the Box 2017-05-04 04:04:54
Potential slut shaming detected. Employing red pill countermeasures now:
If you prefer to be a beta, which many guys do, that’s completely fine. Feel free to satisfy the “beta bucks” aspect of her dualistic sexual strategy, knowing that she’s fucked 10-20-30-100 Alphaswithout requiring 5 dates before becoming intimate before she’s finally settled for you after she’s finally become a quality woman.There is nothing low quality about fucking 100 men in her past. In fact, I'd say her being a virgin, or fucking less than 30 men makes her "low quality" and inexperienced, which is a major turn off for me. Whereas 100 different sex partners in her past makes her tremendously high quality (for me). She didn't become a "quality woman" by playing the purity card. She chose to become a prude, which substantially lowers her quality to an alpha.
Or, you could choose not to follow the SP about forgiving her past indiscretionsForgiving? Indiscretions? You're acting as if she's done something wrong. Precisely refusing to fuck all those men would require my forgiveness (which I would not grant).
and choose not to play along with whatever she’s now trying to brand herself with – and fuck somebody else.I agree that you shouldn't tolerate a woman making you wait, especially if she fucked past guys quickly. The hypocrisy is unacceptable. But it would be just as unacceptable if she didn't fuck her past guys quickly either, except then she'd be just a prude instead of a hypocrite - which is equally unacceptable and worthy of me dumping her and fucking somebody else.
Bulma78 2017-05-04 06:41:18
Yet I pull guys that are WAY higher quality now.
Like kryptokate mentioned- I’ve only noticed the quality of men going up as I get older, not downSame goes for me too! But I feel in my case, my explanation is because I met these guys using online dating; the exposure you get online is a lot greater and even though I didn’t reach out to any of them first, I chose the best among those that contacted me.
J.A 2017-05-05 20:12:23
This is a good article, Blackdragon. I was on this one basketball message board that I go on (I am watching one of the playoff games right now). And, in the Off the Court Lounge, some of the other posters are talking about how dating gets creepier for men after 30, and about how they don't even have a chance picking up a woman in the grocery store.
Blackdragon 2017-05-05 21:11:39
in the Off the Court Lounge, some of the other posters are talking about how dating gets creepier for men after 30, and about how they don’t even have a chance picking up a woman in the grocery store.And yet I was meeting and having sex with women (as young as 19), meeting them at malls, when I was 37...
K 2017-05-06 00:59:18
@ JOTB I wasn't sexually attracted to my man when I first met him. I was intellectually intrigued by him, though, so we kept meeting, almost every week, for over 2 months. Until I realised I was in love with him, then I didn't waste anymore time to get him in bed. And it turned out we had a great chemistry. 2.5 years ago and - while we may encounter relationship problems time to time - we still have that chemistry and I love having sex with him. It's true that I enjoy sex in general but not with every man - in the past I also happened to end up in bed with a man who I was attracted to at first but the sex was so bad that all the attraction ceased immediately. For my man I was apparently worth the wait. I didn't make him wait on purpose, the moment I started wanting him, I went for it (ok, it took one week between the realisation and the opportunity). Could he have sex with other women in the meantime? Absolutely. Had he escalated on me prior to my falling in love, most likely we wouldn't have seen each other again. You can do with your life whatever you want, but don't put down other people for waiting, please.
hey hey 2017-05-06 05:07:49
You wait because the guy doesn't push the right buttons on you. You go out with a guy to see if he could be a guy you would have sex with. If he doesn't push the right buttons from the start, he will not attract you and would make more dates to see if he would attract you. This could go on until he will attract or shuts you off completely. The longer this goes the likelihood is to shut you off completely. So even if your particular scenario worked out well (but in my opinion sets the relationship on the wrong balance, because obviously the guy is pedestaling you and this will not end well) it doesn't mean it is optimally right to play the waiting game.
K 2017-05-06 08:00:32
@ hey hey I think you're right there. It makes me wonder whether this "pedestaling" occured only at the beginning of the relationship and then ceased or whether it's still there and his constant highlighting of my weaknesses (or what he considers to be my weaknesses) are a compensating mechanism. Btw I realised in the meantime that we got together in 11/2013, i.e. we've been in a relationship longer than I originally indicated.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-05-06 12:29:03
For my man I was apparently worth the wait.This is typical female narcissism/solipsism. You're falsely equating his beta low self esteem and mentality of sexual scarcity with a glorification of you. It's Disney and it's bullshit! No sweetie, he didn't think you were "worth the wait." He didn't wait because "you're such an amazing woman who is soooooooo worth it." HAHAHA! Take the crown off your head please! He waited because he's a loser who suffers from sexual scarcity. Do you think any alpha male, or just any man with options (or even just a mentality of sexual abundance) would tolerate this crap from you? You are NOT worth it! No woman is! Any man with sexual options or abundance knows this. That's why, when a woman realizes that this man can have sex with any woman he wants, instantly gets her shit together and fucks him because she knows she'll lose him otherwise because he doesn't buy her garbage princess act! With so many women willing to fuck on the first date, no one specific woman is "worth" waiting for. Any man who disagrees is trying to masquerade his own mentality of scarcity with noble chivalrous delusions. And any woman who buys in to those delusions does so either because she's ignorant of the fact that he's a mating market loser (or how the mating market works) or just has narcissistic/Disney tendencies.
Could he have sex with other women in the meantime? Absolutely.Could he have sex with other women now?
Had he escalated on me prior to my falling in love, most likely we wouldn’t have seen each other again.So you have to be "in love" in order to have sex? Really? Also, you can't fall in love with someone you haven't even had sex with yet. More Disney nonsense.
You can do with your life whatever you want, but don’t put down other people for waiting, please.The only other option is to give in to your solipsism, which I refuse to do. So yes, I will put him down. Your boyfriend is a female pedestaling sexual market loser.
J.A 2017-05-06 15:12:39
And yet I was meeting and having sex with women (as young as 19), meeting them at malls, when I was 37…Touche, Black Dragon (although I don't agree with what those people say. A lot of them are know-nothings who say the dumbest stuff).
K 2017-05-07 00:46:56
@ JOTB Could he have sex with other women now? Yes, he could. Women are interested in him and I'd be ok with it, which he knows. He is the one claiming he doesn't want to. I expect him to change his mind about it at one point. So you have to be “in love” in order to have sex? Really? No, not in general. My description relates to one particular case where I wasn't physically attracted to the man at first but the attraction, to my own surprise, developed (as did the feeling of "being in love") and was then reinforced by enjoyable sex. you can’t fall in love with someone you haven’t even had sex with yet. 😀 😀
seirz 2017-05-07 10:51:29
On my flight back to the US from China recently, I saw a few women from Columbia… Oh my GOD.It's COLOMBIA, Gringo.
Gil Galad 2017-05-07 15:22:47
BD, at what age are women usually at the height of their desire to have kids (and thus the most likely to try to get a careless chump to cum inside them) in your experience ? 28, 30 ?
Anon 2017-05-07 19:17:26
Anyone who says 'five dates is not too much for sex' has not had sex with a lot of women, and certainly doesn't know how this works. In theory, that is not a lot if that gets you your one special girl. But since that culture is long gone, you have to grasp how the sexual market really works. A woman should have sex with you by the third meeting, no later. Second is best, but third is the last chance. Plus, you should not have spent more than $20 on her up to the point of sex. If either of these two criteria is violated, next her. Remember that nexting is easy when you have a proper pipeline and sourcing activity, which leads to the confidence that the next opportunity and the next one and the next one are not far away.
JEB 2017-05-08 01:48:00
@JOTB I think you misunderstood my post completely. I'm pointing out the fact that our omega friend believes in the new scheme where women, who used to fuck every single Chad that came in their vicinity, should be forgiven their past indiscretions during their epiphany phase where they now brand themselves a "quality woman" that "is worth waiting for". I'm not saying that you should shame her for it - I'm saying that the sales tactic of saying "I was young, so the 100 Chads don't really count" in order for them to sell themselves to a beta for long-term provisioning is really not an ideal trade. Women secure themselves a beta in their 30's by re-branding themselves as re-born from their previous sexual free self. I'm saying the same as you - why wait 5 dates for this "sexually reformed" woman who used to fuck Chads all over, when you can fuck her younger sister on the first date without hassle.
KryptoKate 2017-05-08 19:12:00
A woman can "rebrand" all she wants, but it is worthless if there isn't a market. Reality is that sex is now free, so no man but a total idiot should be "buying" a lifetime of sex from a woman through marriage. He should be considering a marriage investment solely if she is bringing non-sexual assets that will benefit him, such as her earning power, her assets/resources, her high-quality genes to pass to kids such as high IQ/sociability/height, whatever. But not sex. That's free or at any rate much lower cost than all the investments required in a marriage. And that is exactly what is happening anyway though people don't realize it. Those in the social winner's circle at the top of society are still marrying to consolidate earning power/resources, while everyone else who only has sex to offer is just fucking and no one is marrying (or if they do it lasts a few years tops). This is why people are waiting til the last possible minute to marry too...they want to see good proof of ability to earn with a historical track record before they're willing to invest. And the age of marriage will just continue to get pushed up as far as possible to where women can still reproduce (and where technologically possible that will be pushed back even further via IVF or egg freezing or whatever). Basically now that sex is free, women have to compete on the LTR market just like men have always had to, by offering something of real value. But on the flip side, in the short-term sex market, it means men now have to compete much harder with each other, just like women used to when the only thing they had to offer was sex.
JEB 2017-05-09 00:13:56
A woman can “rebrand” all she wants, but it is worthless if there isn’t a market.There IS certainly a market for "rebranded" women. It's about 75 % of all men - the betas. Around her 30's, many women realise that they are done with their "party years" and rationalise that, in order to get a sustainable long-term monogamous partner, they must now let go of their "promiscous old ways" and become a "quality woman" who adheres to the societal values of such a woman - doesn't have sex before the 3rd date (or later), doesn't do crazy things.. you get the idea. The fact of the matter is that this transformation is simply a smokescreen that the woman employs - with the full support of the sisterhood and society - to lure in a beta who would otherwise not consider her long-term partner material. Now, for a beta looking for a long-term partner (which betas always are), it is in his best interest to believe in the transformation of this woman, as he would otherwise have much lower chances of finding a mate at all. He'll either buy into the lie and simply shield himself from the truth, or he will find out the truth but choose to forgive her past indescretions. However, for an Alpha, who presumably has a lot of options, the situation looks different. He can choose between women who will fuck him instinctively on the first or second date, who are comfortable with their true sexual selves, or he can choose women who used to fuck guys like him on the first or second date, and who used to being comfortable with their true sexual selves, but now due to their reformation "can't fuck him until the 3rd/4th/5th date" and who "don't like blowjobs" or whatever they've convinced themselves of.
Reality is that sex is now free, so no man but a total idiot should be “buying” a lifetime of sex from a woman through marriage. He should be considering a marriage investment solely if she is bringing non-sexual assets that will benefit him, such as her earning power, her assets/resources, her high-quality genes to pass to kids such as high IQ/sociability/height, whatever. But not sex.This is a very solipstic mindset that believes in equal values in partners for men and women. Men don't care about a woman's earning power, assets/resources. They care about her looks and her ability to provide sex. Before you call me a misogynistic asshole, let me remind you that I think it's absolutely great that women have these assets. I value high-earning and independent women a lot higher in my book, as they are often much more in control of their own lives and seek out men for the right reasons (compared to long-term provisioning). What I think is just very important to understand is that men really don't consider those attributes very valuable. An attractive woman who offers great sex, has low income but doesn't "require" to spend her partners money would, by most men, be considered just a good a partner as the same woman who were much more well-off. The idea that men would consider wealth and power attractive stems from the fact that women consider these attributes attractive in men. Unfortunately, just like men will never be able to understand why his wife of 20 years ran off with a millionaire (hypergamy), a woman will never understand why her husband of 20 years ran off with that young blonde bimbo.
KryptoKate 2017-05-09 08:57:26
@ JEB I understand that that's the predominate RP narrative but it isn't what I see around me and I while there is some truth to it, it is very culturally influenced. True that in traditional/religious/conservative cultures men don't value a woman with assets for marriage but that's all bc no woman has assets in those cultures. Among younger men in their 20s and 30s in metro areas, especially those who are more affluent, they absolutely will NOT generally consider a woman who isn't in their class educationally and economically for marriage. Sex yes, but I am talking about investing in a LTR. I live in a city that up until recently was much more conservative and religious than it is today and this is so obvious. The men older than 50 I work with all have wives that don't work or if they worked it was some little hobby type job. Then with the guys in their late 30s and 40s there's a mix. Among the guys 35 and younger they are all married to or living with a woman who earns as much or more than they do in a similarly "prestigious" job requiring extended schooling etc. Basically it takes so much investment in your kids, or at least people think it does, with college and grad school and everything, and people have so much anxiety about falling out of the upper middle class, that no one is going to risk having kids without a solid double income, it's just too expensive. Also among the 28 to 38 year old women I work with who have kids, every single one has a husband who is primary caretaker while she is primary breadwinner. Things have changed rapidly from 20 years ago. Anyway, just saying the markets for dating/sex versus the market for a serious LTR are different. And marriage has always been a economic partnership designed to maintain or enhance family status and wealth, among the upper classes. And sort of irrelevant among the rest of the classes, the mid twentieth century was really an aberration. Also I think in more liberal and urban cultures it is understood that one's teens and 20s are intended for sexual and other exploration and that later when people get older they get more serious about career and family and "settle down" or whatever. So no one is surprised when either men or women are big sluts for years and then shift priorities later. That is considered the norm, not some kind of surprise or bait and switch. I think the manosphere is primarily made up of men who were raised in a religious household and culture who understood things to be different and then felt blindsided when exposed to secular liberal culture as adults, so they perceive it as a switch that happens but really it's their own beliefs that switched. I know tons of women who were shy, prude, or in a committed relationship with one guy while young and only started the slutty phase later in their 20s or even 30s. And guys who were players in high school and settled down by 25, or guys who were virgins til 25 and then players, I see all kinds of different histories which are far more varied than the standard RP narrative which I don't even think is that applicable except for a small group of the hot party girls. I mean, I was one of those very bad hot party girls having a lot sex and doing drugs and all kinds of crazy shit in high school and college, but it is not like I was at all standard, the vast majority of girls didn't act like me and most wanted boyfriends and believed in true love and all that stuff. If anything, being high SMV will make you cynical and see the truth faster than anything else bc you see early on how full of shit people are and how far their behavior falls from their purported ideals. Like the fact that men will preach about honor and loyalty and friendship and supposedly fight to the death for those things and yet a large majority of them would fuck their best friend's or their own brother's girl if she was hot enough and made a pass. Girls will do it to their friends too, most people are FOS and just haven't been in a situation where they're tested.
K 2017-05-09 14:44:28
I know tons of women who were shy, prude, or in a committed relationship with one guy while young and only started the slutty phase later in their 20s or even 30s. And guys who were players in high school and settled down by 25, or guys who were virgins til 25 and then players, I see all kinds of different histories which are far more varied than the standard RP narrative which I don’t even think is that applicable except for a small group of the hot party girls.Thank you, KK, finally a narrative that corresponds with my life experience.
KryptoKate 2017-05-09 20:43:11
@ K Yeah, like I said, my metro area is a previously conservative/religious place that is rapidly secularizing and modernizing. Which means that in my friend group of women in their 30s who grew up here, most of them were only with ONE man, their husband, and married and had multiple kids very young in their early 20s. They didn't start getting slutty and experimental til they divorced in their 30s. And also, in most cases those divorces were caused by their husband cheating and/or discarding them AFTER they'd used up their bodies and youth begetting multiple children from them. And none of them have any assets or earning power to sufficient to have gotten a damn thing in the divorce...forget alimony or a division of non existent assets, they were just fighting over splitting up their debt, and most of them don't even get reliable child support from their ex. In contrast the women I work with, most of whom grew up in more secular families or areas, didn't marry or have kids til their 30s and all are primary or equal breadwinners. So this "bait and switch" narrative is obsessively one-sided in RP theory (or just frankly ignores the stories of any women who aren't young and hot bc frankly they don't care about those women, any more than anyone cares about men who are not young, hot, dangerous, or rich). Really, it seems to be being raised in a traditional environment and then being cast into a liberal adulthood with totally different rules that throws people off and makes them feel like they got a raw deal or got screwed out of taking full advantage of their youth (though I see more men complain about it than women). And I get it...you can never get your youth back. Maybe I would be mad too. But idk, I paid my ex husband a monthly 4 figure alimony check for 3 years while he sat on his ass writing his "novel" and Ive never been bitter or complained about it...you can't change the past or your choices so why bother with regrets. I never have any. Then there are other people who were just really shy in their youth or took a while to develop and flourish sexually and romantically, but they dont seem to harbor the same bitterness that applies to those who grew up with the traditional/religious fantasy and then became disillusioned as adults when they realized it wasn't true. I was very shy and socially awkward as a teenager and in my 20s but I used drugs and alcohol to make me less socially inhibited, so I still had experiences like a more outgoing, popular person would. It took me until well into my 30s to develop confidence with other people. P.S. we can't agree too much, bc if you are K and I am KK, then if you put those together, well... :/
Duke 2017-05-10 16:19:48
Among the guys 35 and younger they are all married to or living with a woman who earns as much or more than they do in a similarly “prestigious” job requiring extended schooling etc. Basically it takes so much investment in your kids, or at least people think it does, with college and grad school and everything, and people have so much anxiety about falling out of the upper middle class, that no one is going to risk having kids without a solid double income, it’s just too expensive.This shit sounds like a nightmare to me. Guy goes to school to get a good job. Gets good job and meets girl. Marries girl and buys a house in a "nice" neighborhood/school district. Has kids, and keeps upgrading the family car like this VW commercial. Now all you have to do is keep up appearances and pretend that you aren't miserable/stressed out. Where do I sign up? Glad I didn't grow up with this crap. White Middle Class America is a joke, and turns you into a tool. They try to say that this shit is red pill when in all actuality it's just common sense and a lack of idealism. People in poverty such as the third world, or even first world minorities/white trash pretty much have red pill thinking by default. Getting an in depth look at the fairy tale upbringing that most middle class American people go through was a pretty bizarre experience for me. Having been in the service industry for years, I started going to college about six years ago as a non-trad due to my mom getting a nice inheritance from my step dad. I subsequently found out about the internet, and went down the rabbit hole. I found out about the so-called red pill/manoshere, feminazis and SWJs. I have to admit, it has been entertaining to find out about the contradicting viewpoints like left and right in politics, MGTOWs and PUAs, monogamists and polyamorists, and alternative philosophies like nihilism and hedonism. I got my popcorn ready though. It will definitely be interesting as the U.S. gets more stratified, and the economy keeps going to shit, how the country will take shape. Right now women dominate the college landscape and make more money than men in their twenties, but in the future who knows if this trend can continue. You say women are egalitarian, and that they seek assortative mating strategies without/with reversed gender roles. I always wonder how happy the women are that find themselves in dual income marriages/relationships in contrast to women that are "taken care of" in a single income household. I have a feeling that it's a lose/lose for women no matter how you slice it, unless you're an independent woman that is happy on her own. The women in dual income relationships probably have a deep seated resentment that they have to work in the first place, plus on top of that when they get home they have to delegate chores so it's fifty/fifty. The women that get taken care of end up like the women from the show Desperate House Wives where they are bored out of their minds. Money will continue to be an important factor though. I don't blame women for prioritizing their comfort in favor of genuine attraction, or having their cake and eating it too. A few minutes or hours of sex with someone you have chemistry with will never beat conforming to societal standards and achieving material comfort even if it requires having two incomes. It is funny though, how you can feel other people's anxiety for them. Imagine how they're feeling! I can just imagine you listening to everyone's lives and internally face palming at the ridiculousness of it all.
roger 2017-05-10 18:42:28
@Blackdragon <blockquote><p>I have more important uses for my time (namely getting laid within 3 hours on two dates</p><blockquote> Yep your priority is fuck buddies. Mine is finding someone decent to fuck. In fact you may actually say I have ASD lol @Jeb <blockquote><p>There IS certainly a market for “rebranded” women. It’s about 75 % of all men – the betas. Around her 30’s, many women realise that they are done with their “party years” and rationalise that, in order to get a sustainable long-term monogamous partner, they must now let go of their “promiscous old ways” and become a “quality woman” who adheres to the societal values of such a woman – doesn’t have sex before the 3rd date (or later)</p><blockquote> Perhaps she never was promiscuous, perhaps she was always cautious. @Jack Outside the Box <blockquote><p>Is this some kind of a sarcastic piece of nonsense you pulled from Jezebel or some worthless feminist site? Because most people here won’t find it amusing.</p><blockquote> It's not a troll, not everyone here is a Blackdragon Fan(atic), I agree with 90% of what he says, but I'm a bit more mallow around having to rush for sex. I don't do fuckbuddies. And I don't mind serial monogamy, polyamourous relationships are something I would consider. <blockquote><p>Obviously if she is demanding luxurious dates then you have an issue.</p><blockquote> No I would not keep dating her. And if she demanded luxurious dates, then I would next immediately. There could be other reasons, perhaps she has a yeast infection, or has just come on her period or some other valid reason for taking it slow to get to the sex. <blockquote><p>She can “evaluate me” during sex. In fact, sex is the best way to get to know someone quicker. Why choose the long way to get to know me?</p><blockquote> You sound very shallow, not uncommon. <blockquote><p>I don’t date low self esteem women.</p><blockquote> You are missing my point. It's not about your decisions. It is that ASD is not that simple, it can be a range of different things that are falling under "ASD" which have nothing to do with "Anti Slut Defence". <blockquote><p>You are NOT worth it! No woman is! Any man with sexual options or abundance knows this. That’s why, when a woman realizes that this man can have sex with any woman he wants, instantly gets her shit together and fucks him because she knows she’ll lose him otherwise because he doesn’t buy her garbage princess act! With so many women willing to fuck on the first date, no one specific woman is “worth” waiting for. Any man who disagrees is trying to masquerade his own mentality of scarcity with noble chivalrous delusions. And any woman who buys in to those delusions does so either because she’s ignorant of the fact that he’s a mating market loser (or how the mating market works) or just has narcissistic/Disney tendencies.</p><blockquote> You really are off on a tangent. If you value all women as low quality. Then obviously you are not going to see higher quality. You are blind to what others perceive as higher quality. I've turned down sex from 21 year olds. Because I perceived them to be low quality. I rate them as 8/10. But they were fucking billions of other guys, had zero interest in who I was. There is a high chance they would give me an STI, and likely only wanted me to spend money on them, or get some other entertainment out of me (lesser financial benefit, such as social networking). Some women if they know that you are promiscuous will rate you as low quality - they won't fuck you. @Aron <blockquote><p>A woman should have sex with you by the third meeting, no later. Second is best, but third is the last chance. Plus, you should not have spent more than $20 on her up to the point of sex.</p><blockquote> I don't follow Blackdragons system to the letter. I'm more flexible. Is that okay, that I don't follow BD's system to the letter like a bible bashing fanatic? That I don't worship BD as a god & saviour of men, that I don't say a little prayer at night before I slay a woman "thank you for saving mankind"? @JEB What if a woman has never rebranded. What if her rules are to wait until the 5th date. That might be unacceptable to you, but is it okay for me to date her and fuck her on the 5th date, is it okay that I buy her one expensive dinner ($50)? Do you approve, dad? Am I a beta, if I have a long term (2-3 year) relationship where I DON'T live with her, I DON'T spend excessive amounts of money on her, I DON'T take any drama from her? I plan the break up, I'm prepared for it, ready and waiting?
KryptoKate 2017-05-10 22:37:27
@ Duke spot on.
Blackdragon 2017-05-11 17:28:06
Yep your priority is fuck buddies.You know that's not my priority. Please don't purposely mischaracterize my system just to make a shitty point.
Mine is finding someone decent to fuck.Me too. How do you think I found my girlfriend if this was never my priority?
I don’t follow Blackdragons system to the letter. I’m more flexible. Is that okay, that I don’t follow BD’s system to the letter like a bible bashing fanatic?You are incorrect; it's not that you don't follow my system to the letter; you don't follow my system at all. You wait 5+ dates to have sex, you do monogamy, you don't do FB's or even MLTR's, etc. You're as opposite to what I talk about as one can get, at least in terms of dating. I seriously wonder why you even post here, if you disagree with the basics of my system so vehemently.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-05-12 04:40:39
Yep your priority is fuck buddies. Mine is finding someone decent to fuck.That's not a contradiction. Every woman must start out at the fuck buddy level because that's the lowest level. She must earn the higher levels over time. So even if my priority is falling in love and having kids, the mother of my children will start out at the fuck buddy level (as my girlfriend did). That's where all women start out as we get to know each other.
In fact you may actually say I have ASD lolMore like a case of Disney.
Perhaps she never was promiscuous, perhaps she was always cautious.Cautious? So promiscuous women aren't cautious? What are they then? Reckless? Dude, this is slut shaming and very blue pill. Stop with the prude apologetics.
It’s not a troll, not everyone here is a Blackdragon Fan(atic), I agree with 90% of what he says, but I’m a bit more mallow around having to rush for sex.As BD pointed out, you agree with essentially 0% of what he's saying. "Rush to sex?" No one talks like that, except people with very low sex drives.
I don’t do fuckbuddies.Then what do you do? Serious relationships only? That means you will never have sex with a woman until after she agrees to be your serious girlfriend? So.....no sex before commitment? Dude, that is as tradcon/blue pill as they come! Are you sure you're not a woman pretending to be a man here?
And I don’t mind serial monogamy, polyamourous relationships are something I would consider.How could you consider poly relationships when an open/poly relationship means you have one primary and a few secondaries or tertiaries on the side? You said you don't do fuck buddies. That means you don't do tertiaries or secondaries. So how would your poly relationship be different than a mono one? No, you would NOT consider poly. You really need to think through some of the things you're saying.
There could be other reasons, perhaps she has a yeast infection, or has just come on her period or some other valid reason for taking it slow to get to the sex.Over the course of three whole dates? Nah. I'd listen if she gave me a medical reason, but if she doesn't fuck me by the fourth date (at the absolute max), she's gone. Our dates can be days or even a week apart, so her period or yeast infection should clear up by then. If it still hasn't cleared up in two weeks, she shouldn't be dating right now, as she has more serious problems.
You sound very shallow, not uncommon.And you have just outed yourself as a woman!
"Shallow"is the most female, most Disney, and most blue pill of words. Nice try posing as a man though. So I'm shallowbecause I want our emotional bond to be expedited through regular sexual activity? Maybe you, as a woman, think that's shallowbecause some of the men you've dated have humped you and dumped you? Your female baggage is not my problem. With us men, sexual activity precisely speeds up our emotional bond with you. That's the opposite of shallow. Shallow is what you, and other women like you, do - postpone the bond so you can continue getting to know us on a superficial level through a long series of platonic activities. Sex, by contrast, releases oxytocin which speed up trust, intimacy, and everything that's the opposite of your accusations of shallowness. If anything is shallow,it is your female Disney delusions.
You are missing my point. It’s not about your decisions. It is that ASD is not that simple, it can be a range of different things that are falling under “ASD” which have nothing to do with “Anti Slut Defence”.ASD precisely stands for "anti-slut defense." How could anti-slut defense have nothing to do with anti-slut defense? This is female logic. "It's not that simple. It's nuanced. It's complex. Us women see more levels." Oh stop it! Just......stop. Respect this male space and stop with the chick logic!
You really are off on a tangent. If you value all women as low quality. Then obviously you are not going to see higher quality. You are blind to what others perceive as higher quality.So you think that promiscuous women, or women who have sex on the first date, are "low quality?" More slut shaming! You think waiting to have sex makes a woman "high quality?" Again, more Disney trash! You are filled to the brim with this "wish upon a star" crap! Seriously, stop going to red pill blogs posing as a male. It's pathetic. I can smell the estrogen from here! I value all women as HIGH QUALITY, which explains why I only go for promiscuous women. It's the Disney women, like yourself, who are low quality.
I’ve turned down sex from 21 year olds. Because I perceived them to be low quality. I rate them as 8/10. But they were fucking billions of other guys,But? Why but? Why not "and?" As in, "I rate them as 8/10 AND they were fucking billions of other guys." The "but" is indicative of further slut shaming! Going with your deception that you're a man, why would you turn down a woman just because she loves sex? That should be a point for her, not against her.
had zero interest in who I was.LOL! How did you ever think anyone here would believe that you're a male after saying all of this explicitly female shit?
There is a high chance they would give me an STI, and likely only wanted me to spend money on them, or get some other entertainment out of me (lesser financial benefit, such as social networking).If a woman has fucked "billions of guys," then she's definitely not a gold digger or status whore. As for "STIs," tell those men to simply wear condoms with you, but seriously, drop this chick logic.
Some women if they know that you are promiscuous will rate you as low quality – they won’t fuck you.Like you? Well, I don't want women like you to fuck me. If a woman thinks my love of sex with multiple women makes me low quality, I find her low quality just for that, since that tells me that her sex drive is low and she isn't promiscuous herself, which merits a hard next from me. So yeah, any woman who thinks promiscuity is "low quality" is a woman I want nothing to do with. So that's not a loss. It means I dodged a bullet.
What if a woman has never rebranded. What if her rules are to wait until the 5th date. That might be unacceptable to you, but is it okay for me to date her and fuck her on the 5th date, is it okay that I buy her one expensive dinner ($50)? Do you approve, dad?No, I don't approve and it's not okay. If that's the way you lead your life, you really have no place on this blog or within the red pill community.
Am I a beta, if I have a long term (2-3 year) relationship where I DON’T live with her, I DON’T spend excessive amounts of money on her, I DON’T take any drama from her? I plan the break up, I’m prepared for it, ready and waiting?If a man is monogamous with a woman, then he is a beta, yes. But stop posing as a man. I'm serious.
roger 2017-05-15 14:19:11
I'm going to take this to the forums - I hope you and others will join me there. http://alpha20.ning.com/
roger 2017-05-15 15:26:34
Nevermind. I've now found out what a corruption of Red Pill you guys have become from Reddit community. So warped, where you say things such as AWALT. I may make a post in the future, but you don't need to respond.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-05-15 15:41:56
Nevermind. I’ve now found out what a corruption of Red Pill you guys have becomeCorruption of the red pill? You're the one pushing traditional Disney, monogamy, sex-hating prudery, slut shaming, stud shaming, and an entire host of blue pill concepts. If anyone is trying to corrupt the red pill, it's you.
from Reddit community.We have nothing to do with Reddit.
So warped,The only thing that's warped is the manosophere. They have taken blue pill Disney garbage and are calling the 1950s "red pill." That's what's warped! Traditional Disney is now considered "red pill," which is chilling.
where you say things such as AWALT.No one here has ever said this.
Liane 2017-12-06 04:56:03
Hi, I am 25 in a long term, very happy relationship with my boyfriend of 34. I just want to set a few things straight, as many people are confusing female behaviour. I made my boyfriend wait to have sex. I don’t find it fair that women are expected to put out with every single guy they go on a date with, until they find one they want to be long term with who also feels the same... imagine how many guys the girl would have to sleep with, until she finds the right one? The expectation for a girl to sleep with a guy quickly before they even know each other just isn’t realistic and is asking a lot. Secondly, sex is an emotional and very intimate act for a girl. Younger women don’t understand what they need out of a relationship yet, and they don’t know how to communicate it properly, that’s why there is drama in the relationship. They try to convince themselves they are cool and can have sex with no attachment, but most girls find it hard. There needs to be a middle ground where the guy is willing to open up emotionally and show that he is serious, so that the girl can feel safe and share what is intimate to her (sex) with him in return. It should not be a one way street. When the guy isn’t willing to put in work to show he’s serious, the girl starts feeling that her needs aren’t being met, but is taught that her emotions are wrong so she suppressed them and that’s when “drama” hits the fan. Older women just know more what they need in a relationship and how to communicate it. That’s the only real difference. If you are finding woman to be dramatic, chances are that you aren’t meeting their needs, which is bringing out their insecurities and leaving them unsatisfied. My courage to speak u fir myself is the only reason my relationship went to the next level. Treat woman right, be fair and don’t expect so much of a girl so soon. If you don’t want to be patient and get to know her, see if there’s a connection and a future there, than I don’t see why a girl should be sharing her intimate side (sex) with you in the first place. Guy doesn’t deserve her then. Plain and simple.
Gil Galad 2017-12-06 05:57:13
I don’t find it fair that women are expected to put out with every single guy they go on a date withThey are not expected to do that. If you don't want to have sex till there's a special "connection" that takes time to build-up, that's fine. And we on the other hand will retain the same freedom by moving on to the next girl if we, for our part, prefer to have sex early in the interaction. We will be seeking girls who don't mind having sex with whoever they're attracted to and *then* seeing if that physical relationship can transition into something more. We just find it more logical and we're not attempting to impose anything whatsoever.
Marty 2017-12-06 06:45:14
When the guy isn’t willing to put in work to show he’s serious, the girl starts feeling that her needs aren’t being met, but is taught that her emotions are wrong so she suppressed them and that’s when “drama” hits the fan.When the girl isn’t willing to put in work to show she’s serious, the guy starts feeling that his needs aren’t being met, but is taught that his desires are wrong so he suppresses them and that’s when “drama” hits the fan. But you know....its all about the girl....so you know what...FUCK him!! Pretty much! Modern society at its best. Enjoy the decline. What a shit show. Its getting messy and its only going to get worse. Thankfully we can see it and have already disengaged and are living peacefully in our own reality thanks to BD and other wonderful teachers. 😀
Jack Outside the Box 2017-12-06 07:21:17
Conservative Disney garbage detected. Initiating red pill countermeasures now:
Hi, I am 25 in a long term, very happy relationship with my boyfriend of 34.My condolences to your boyfriend.
I made my boyfriend wait to have sex.No, you didn't. You can't "make" someone do anything. You have no such power. Get over yourself. What you did was act like a low sex drive Disney princess and he, being the low self esteem beta male that he is, accepted it. No real man would accept your anti-sex trash! You could never "make" me or any man here wait for sex. If you don't sleep with us very soon, you will never see us again. Period. You have zero power to make us do anything.
I don’t find it fair that women are expected to put outAre you a generous lesbian? You make it sound like it's all for him!
with every single guy they go on a date with,Most of the types of girls I date expected me to "put out" on the first or second date. But do you know why I'm a strong man and not a victim? Because I'm a heterosexual - a quality you don't seem to possess.
until they find one they want to be long term with who also feels the same…HAHAHAHA! When you wish upon a star....... Pathetic! I'm soooo glad people like you are going extinct. Loosen up. Check your hormones. Casual sex is a thing that you can do with people while you're getting to know them. Take your 1950s bullshit to a nursing home, where it belongs.
imagine how many guys the girl would have to sleep with,What's wrong with that? My current girlfriend is nearing the triple digits in terms of sex partners.
until she finds the right one?Right one? What the fuck are you talking about? Right one for what? A relationship? What does that have to do with sex? This is what the Walter Disney Corporation does to people. Everyone take notes!
The expectation for a girl to sleep with a guy quicklyYou keep framing the sex as if it's for the man, not for the woman. What about the expectation a girl has for a guy to sleep with her quickly? You do know that heterosexual women are real, right? Just because you've never heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist.
before they even know each other just isn’t realisticIt is VERY realistic in this generation. You say you're 25, but you act like you're 75. Have you even met another woman?
and is asking a lot.No, forcing a young woman today to be celibate and go out of her mind while masturbating is asking a lot. Jesus, what century are you from?
Secondly, sex is an emotional and very intimate act for a girl.Oh god, cue the little mermaid theme. No it's not. Only for low sex drive asexuals like yourself.
Younger women don’t understand what they need out of a relationship yet, and they don’t know how to communicate it properly, that’s why there is drama in the relationship.Maybe they need stuff that you don't need. Like a good hard dick! Ever thought of that? That not every woman is like you?
They try to convince themselves they are cool and can have sex with no attachment, but most girls find it hard.Not if you stick to high sex drive girls, like I'm doing.
There needs to be a middle ground where the guy is willing to open up emotionally and show that he is serious,What if I'm not serious? What if I just want casual sex? And what if the girl wants casual sex even more than me? Did your head just explode?
so that the girl can feel safe and share what is intimate to her (sex) with him in return.So you think sex is "giving?" You think she's doing him a favor? That's not the impression I get when I fuck a girl while she's screaming in pleasure. How are those hormones of yours?
It should not be a one way street.My point exactly. Sex isn't just for the man.
When the guy isn’t willing to put in work to show he’s serious,What if he's not serious? What if he just wants casual sex? What's wrong with that?
the girl starts feeling that her needs aren’t being met,If she doesn't need sexual satisfaction, she should consider the possibility that she isn't straight.
but is taught that her emotions are wrong so she suppressed them and that’s when “drama” hits the fan.Has it ever occurred to you that her emotions might be, in fact, wrong?
Older women just know more what they need in a relationship and how to communicate it. That’s the only real difference.And if their needs contradict mine, I'll just dump them and find a woman whom I'm more sexually compatible with. No one owes you a relationship.
If you are finding woman to be dramatic, chances are that you aren’t meeting their needs,What about my needs? Do I have a right to rape a woman for not meeting my needs? If not, what right does she have to abuse me for not meeting hers? If someone isn't meeting your needs, don't try to change them. Find someone more compatible. That's why we avoid women like you like the plague. You're poison to us.
which is bringing out their insecurities and leaving them unsatisfied.Boo hoo.
My courage to speak u fir myself is the only reason my relationship went to the next level.What did you do? Nag the loser until he agreed to castrate himself?
Treat woman right,Meaning, pretend I'm an asexual?
be fair and don’t expect so much of a girl so soon.I'll expect literally anything I wish to expect. If she doesn't meet my expectations, the girl standing next to her will. Problem solved!
If you don’t want to be patient and get to know her, see if there’s a connection and a future there,Why do I need that if all I want is casual sex?
than I don’t see why a girl should be sharing her intimate side (sex) with you in the first place.Because she's horny as hell and wants sex. Duh! For the same reason many women have shared their intimate side with me on the first date! If you don't like that, learn how to use a door.
Guy doesn’t deserve her then. Plain and simple.She's not the prize! Take yourself off the pedestal. It's not about "deserve." It's about what you believe (credit: Wonder Woman). You want to be frigid and think your vagina is made of gold when it's as common as the grass? Find yourself a good Christian boyfriend who will take you to church every Sunday. The rest of us (both male and female) will be laughing at you and having group sex! Cheers!
joelsuf 2017-12-06 08:57:07
I don’t find it fair that women are expected to put out with every single guy they go on a date withUm what? Where did you come up with this observation? If you are talking about needy Alpha 1s pressuring every chick they meet to have sex with them, I suppose that would not be fair. But that's Alpha 1s, a group of people who are slowly being hunted by dominant chicks in our culture for all the mean things they do to chicks (and other men too). Alpha 2s place pressure on one person: Themselves. This is especially true in the world of romance.
But you know….its all about the girl….so you know what…FUCK him!! Pretty much! Modern society at its best. Enjoy the decline. What a shit show. Its getting messy and its only going to get worse.Its getting worse for Alpha 1s, or anyone who overvalues chicks (sees them as objects of sex or esteem). But for Alpha 2s like us this actually plays into our favor. Outcome independence will get a man laid by default going into the 2020s. That we are finally removing the topic of sex from the "taboo" category is a GREAT thing for anyone who is not outcome dependent.
ThomasNordic 2017-12-06 10:10:59
Marty, what is getting worse and what are you disengaging from?
Marty 2017-12-06 20:22:03
Marty, what is getting worse and what are you disengaging from?Society's general obsession that everything is about what women want. Men's needs or desires don't count and they are really only there to serve the needs of women. Rollo Tomassi calls it the "Feminine Imperative". I'm disengaging from general society and living my life my own way. Helped by great advice from BD and others. As Joelsuf said its actually great for us Alpha 2 types as we get laid heaps more and women are far more attracted to us even if they don't really know why.
joelsuf 2017-12-06 21:15:09
Men’s needs or desires don’t count and they are really only there to serve the needs of women. Rollo Tomassi calls it the “Feminine Imperative”.Oh there's a name for it now? I always just called it swapping out patriarchal structures with matriarchal ones. I had a discussion about this with one of my college professors roughly two years ago, and she agreed that sometimes women's movements go too far and do indeed want a feminine imperative. I think the more we can have rational discussion about this kind of stuff the better. Women's movements are right that certain masculine traits are OBW and make things suck for everyone, but it looks like they just want to make sure that there are no masculine traits at all. Like they have some kind of eugenics program where anyone with masculine traits is considered "not fit" for their society or something. I dunno, this is just what I have observed. I oughtta look Rollo up and see if he sounds similar to what the Social Vengeance Warriors say, but from a different direction. Or if he is legit and is willing to consider other viewpoints.
Marty 2017-12-06 22:14:36
@joelsuf I'm very surprised you haven't heard about Rollo. His original book The Rational Male is a must read for all guys IMO. You should definitely check out his stuff.
Teresa 2018-07-08 06:23:09
N why r you talking about younger women anyways if you're an older man? Pervvvvvv....would you want a 35-55 yr old man banging your 18 yr old daughter? That's bs about younger women being better in bed...rubbish. Any woman can be good in bed if she knows how to plz a man and herself. I'm 52 yes old...look 32...work out..flawless skin...nice shape 5/6 thick....pescatarian and believe me...I lack no attn from men...NONE!!!!! That's from every different race of men out there. 2 marriage proposals in a year...first date men wanna settle me down. Not happening...22 yrs of marriage was enough for me. Tons of compliments on my body. The few men I have slept with since divorce in a state of shock upon seeing my body especially my breasts. Been told I have some of d prettiest breasts ever laid eyes on and betta than ova 85 percent of younger women breasts. I know cause I'm a bad mama jamma and I love it!!!
Blackdragon 2018-07-08 10:20:05
Teresa - I've had sex with women over 50 and it was great. I'm not saying men should only have sex with younger women; I'm saying they should have sex with younger women and older women. Please read this article and answer its question.
juancito420 2019-01-03 15:47:00
Remember the Wall fellas. Young and pretty women might be arrogant, spoiled, cold, manipulative, and stuckup because they are being picky with all types of young and old men hitting on them. Ten years later, those young women's looks will slowly decline and men will ignore them. Aaron Clarey once said " Good news ladies, when you are old and wrinkled all the unwanted attention will be gone". I encounter middle age and elderly women without being aroused. They are very nice to me because they developed humility and class from losing their looks. Young women's look give them a sense of power. It is like modeling and fashion industry where they replace aging models with nubile ones. A lot of men probably do not want Heidi Klum, Pamela Anderson and Cindy Crawford but want to get with Katie Upton, Karlie Kloss, and multiple Instagram models.