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Why Attractive People Are Less Capable of Monogamy or Marriage
-By Caleb Jones
Indeed, studies have shown [*][*] that with men and women both, the better-looking you are, the more likely you are to cheat and the more likely you are to get divorced (if you’re dumb enough to get into a traditional monogamous marriage, that is). Several of you recently sent me this article written by a woman who is “too beautiful to be faithful.”
The fact I was attractive meant I was constantly surrounded by men ready and willing to distract me from the path of true love. The more offers I got, the more convinced I became that the grass really was greener on the other side. When things started to go awry with a boyfriend, I never felt remotely inclined to try to work through any problems. I simply moved on to the next man. As a beautiful woman, I never had that fear I would be left alone. There was always another charming, handsome replacement waiting in the wings to offer me the heady excitement of a new relationship.
Yep! Pretty much.
Yet, do you think she ever thought twice about promising monogamy to a man?
Do you think she ever thought twice about marrying a man with the presumption that it would “last forever?”
Do you think all these men she married and dated assumed that they would be dumped or cheated on soon?
This is why people still get married and cheated on / divorced in massive numbers. No one is willing to be honest about this.
We have to be fair though. This is true with good-looking men too. Even the woman in the article complains that the hotter guys would always cheat on her. Well, of course they did.
It’s often been said that “people are as faithful as their options.” This is very true. If you’re better-looking, you have more options, the odds of you cheating and/or dumping/divorcing your lover go way up. This forces monogamy-lovers to do some very weird things, such as Roosh stating that when he gets married he’s going to make sure his future wife is no more than a 7 in attractiveness. (Ugh. A 7 wife? Yeah. Sign me up for that. Sounds great, particularly if you’re monogamous and not allowed to have sex with anyone else. What a great system!)
Here are all the reasons why good-looking people are even less capable of monogamy than normal people (who themselves aren’t capable of it, with rare exception):
1. You have more options. More options mean more opportunity. More opportunity means higher ease of cheating and/or finding a new sucker (uh, I mean partner).
2. You gain more attention from the opposite sex. This means you learn pretty quickly that your options exist. This is a factor a lot of people aren’t aware of.
I’ve talked about how, when I was monogamously married, I “forgot” that I was at least somewhat attractive to women simply because of my monogamous lifestyle. Once I got back out into the dating world, I “realized” that I was attractive, at least to some degree, and this made me more able to find more sexual partners.
I've also talked about how attractive women figure out they're hot very fast, usually by the time they're about 17 years old or sooner, because of the sheer tsunami of attention they start receiving from men, almost as soon as they hit puberty.
3. You have more propositions for sex and companionship from the opposite sex, particularly if you’re female. I don’t want to overstate this, however. I know that ugly girls and overweight girls still get literally hundreds of openers whenever they sign up to a dating site like OKCupid. Men will excitedly fuck anything. There’s a myth going around the manosphere that “ugly/fat girls can’t get laid,” and that is not accurate at all. Ugly/overweight women get laid quite a bit and with minimal effort. Regardless, it is true that the hotter you are, the more men will be hitting on you, and they won’t care if you’re already married or have a boyfriend.
4. You are more likely to attention whore via social media. Studies show that the more into social media you are, the more likely you’ll cheat. Since the more good-looking you are, the more likely you are to use social media, this creates a feedback loop that constantly raises the odds that you’ll cheat.
As I’ve said many times, the internet in general and social media in particular is one of the many reasons for the dramatic increase in the number of people cheating over the last several years. This started all the way back in the late 1990’s with websites like classmates.com.
5. Your partners/lovers are more likely to put up with your crap, particularly if they’re men. Guys will put up with all kinds of drama, bullshit, and even abuse from their girlfriend/wife if they perceive her to be better-looking than most. That’s why you need to be careful about this, even if you’re nonmonogamous. It’s quite pathetic, but many hot women learn this pretty quickly; they will cheat on these guys (and/or treat them like shit, and/or throw constant drama at them) and these oneitis pussies will put up with it to some degree.
6. Attractiveness combines with youth to make monogamy even more impossible, and the studies reflect this. That hot 20 year-old is far more likely to cheat than that hot 38 year-old. This is why I’ve said many times that hot girls under the age of 23 are effectively incapable of monogamy (beyond very short stretches), and that men who date or marry women this young while expecting any degree of sexual loyalty are either inexperienced, stupid, or delusional.
While you might be thinking “duh” when I say that the hotter someone is, the less likely she or he will be capable of monogamy, you’ve got to remember that most people either don’t know this, or pretend they don’t know this. Hot people get monogamous and/or monogamously married with no prenups all the time. I don’t see hordes of normal people getting into relationships with super hot people with the expectation that they’ll soon be cheated on or dumped/divorced. It’s always a “surprise” when it happens. So most people just proceed as if everything will be fine.
The few people who are aware of this dynamic are either Alpha Male 1.0 monogamists who actively look for uglier mates (Roosh, et. al.) or nonmonogamists who just smile and date all the super-hot people they like because they don’t have to worry about infidelity.
Which category would you like to be in? 🙂
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Alejo 2017-05-25 06:50:32
Roosh is insane! How can you be outcome independent if you need to marry a 18-25 yr old virgin, religious fanatic who will "never cheat on you" ?!!.
Alejo 2017-05-25 07:17:09
Guys will put up with all kinds of drama, bullshit, and even abuse from their girlfriend/wife if they perceive her to be better-looking than most. That’s why you need to be careful about this, even if you’re nonmonogamousYou said that the 1-10 scale is bullshit, that means that in your Ugly - Average - Cute - Hot, in order to avoid drama, my OLTR or High MLTR should be cute but not hot?
AnonDude 2017-05-25 07:21:42
I agree with your article but isn't this also a problem in serious long term open relationships but just in a different way. I never had OLTR so I'm not sure how that goes but by this logic, if you are attractive, can only love one woman at a time (OLTR) and are often changing FBs (a lot of options) doesn't that mean that you (or your OLTR) have high chances of falling in love with one of your FBs and "cheat" on your OLTR. Especially if you and/or your OLTR are a bit younger and have a ton of options. I could be wrong since I'm young and don't have any experience with OLTRs but it seems like it could happen.
POB 2017-05-25 07:48:53
No one is willing to be honest about this.I would add that SP is so strong that people will fight harder to protect monogamy when their own current situation points to the opposite direction! It's like punching a concrete wall hoping it becomes soft. If you've ever dated a recently divorced woman you know she'll be a lot more PRO monogamy than a single chick. Even so she'll fuck you - and other guys probably - "knowing" (through your frame and attitudes) you're dating other women. Justifications for this are as Disney as they come, off course: "I didn't find the Right Guy", "Love was gone with him but I'll love someone again" or some similar crap. Betas will just pursue and contact her ad nauseam clinging to the hope she'll come back some day. It's inevitable: more options you have more attractive you become. Point is women love it when it's with them, but hate it when it's with us.
CrabRangoon 2017-05-25 08:09:22
I had a good laugh when I saw "classmates.com"-we're really dating ourselves digging that one out of the grave huh! Great post overall-it is very true you're as faithful as your options. I learned long ago I could never be totally monogamous due to a good amount of female attention I've gotten over the years. Being young and dumb I still tried but ended up cheating almost every time. It's funny how many people admit to the same thing once you start talking more openly about it. There's almost a sense of relief from people when they know that you understand and don't have the "Disney" delusions anymore. Still very appreciative of your blog in helping me feel like I have some kindred spirits out there that get it. Thanks again as always.
CrabRangoon 2017-05-25 09:08:21
@POB Your comment about the Disney language "I didn't find the right guy" is one of the most common delusions of monogamy in my opinion. People just always assume it's the fault of the other person why it didn't work out and if they just find that special guy/girl, it'll all fall in place and monogamy will be easy. They never question the entire system because that would just fly in the face of their precious societal programming and lifelong false beliefs. It's rare for the majority to have the "ah-ha!" moment many of us have had about traditional monogamous relationships. They just keep trying over and over again with new people hoping for different results.
Blackdragon 2017-05-25 10:42:31
Roosh is insane! How can you be outcome independent if you need to marry a 18-25 yr old virgin, religious fanatic who will “never cheat on you” ?!!.Roosh is not outcome independent. No Alpha 1.0 is.
You said that the 1-10 scale is bullshit,Yes. The 1-10 scale only matters to your own internal scale which will be different than other men's.
that means that in your Ugly – Average – Cute – Hot, in order to avoid drama, my OLTR or High MLTR should be cute but not hot?No. Where did I say that? Today I'm talking about monogamy not working, not drama.
I agree with your article but isn’t this also a problem in serious long term open relationships but just in a different way. I never had OLTR so I’m not sure how that goes but by this logic, if you are attractive, can only love one woman at a time (OLTR) and are often changing FBs (a lot of options) doesn’t that mean that you (or your OLTR) have high chances of falling in love with one of your FBs and “cheat” on your OLTR. Especially if you and/or your OLTR are a bit younger and have a ton of options.Read excuse #15 here. Also, that has never happened to me. Also, I've never seen it happen with the OLTR couples I've known. Also, in the hundreds (if not thousands) of OLTR cases I'm aware of on the internet, I've heard of this happening exactly once. Women leaving men is common (in OLTR's or any other type of relationship) but a woman actually leaving a man in an OLTR because she's actually falling for one other particular guy is extremely rare. If it weren't, I'd hear this complaint all the time, but I never do. As I say over and over again, stop worrying about hypothetical problems that only exist in your own head.
If you’ve ever dated a recently divorced woman you know she’ll be a lot more PRO monogamy than a single chick.Yes. This is because: 1. Marriage is what she "knows." Being single is "weirder" to her. 2. Most divorced women are over 33, so it's not that she's divorced, but over 33.
Your comment about the Disney language “I didn’t find the right guy” is one of the most common delusions of monogamy in my opinion.Yes... and divorced men use the same phrase. "I got divorced because I married a bitch." No, you got divorced because you utilized a system that doesn't work. You're still going to get divorced again if you marry a non-bitch.
Mayrick Dubois 2017-05-25 10:47:14
Wow! BD, this article is spot on and very accurate. As an attractive woman, it has been my experience all my adult life. The ironic thing is even though it is so obviously true, people still have such a hard time admitting that it is true. It is one of the unspoken truths of adult relationships. I don't see society fully admitting it openly any time soon.
POB 2017-05-25 11:01:58
1. Marriage is what she “knows.” Being single is “weirder” to her. 2. Most divorced women are over 33, so it’s not that she’s divorced, but over 33.Agree on both cases.
People just always assume it’s the fault of the other person why it didn’t work out and if they just find that special guy/girl, it’ll all fall in place and monogamy will be easy.Correct. As we already know it's not about the people - it's the system that's wrong. You can try to justify monogamy - or minimize the flaws of the system - using the most creative and intricate ways (like religion or PU "wisdom"), but the truth will always come back to bite you in the ass.
It’s rare for the majority to have the “ah-ha!” moment many of us have had about traditional monogamous relationships.Yep, sometimes I just feel tired of all the BS. It's not that hard to realize you can deeply love and care about someone and still want to put your johnson into someone else. One does not exclude the other because they're two completely different things.Very simple concept but, man, it's hard to make people get it through all the SP.
JudoJohn 2017-05-25 11:14:23
The Red Pill talks of "spinning plates" which are bound to break. BD talks of MLTR's & FB's who will LSNFTE you, only to come back. Not too hard to figure out which contributes more to the Abundance Mentality. Seems like a good 5 year effort could yield a lifetime of sex partners.
diggy 2017-05-25 12:43:55
Shit, really hot women have such a pethera of options that I thought I was ugly until maybe 17 because my single mother and sister had so many thirsty dude come at them I thought this way how attraction worked on both sexes. Of course my Narc mother couldn't explain it to me. Women didnt absolutely throw themselves at me in copious amounts in any and all manners to get my attention, therefore I had to be ugly. Took me years to get over rejection... Now that I've watched these two womens life play out I can tell you for certain two things 1. BD is correct here. 2. Being born a hot woman is like an expiring lotto ticket that they Cant be bothered to cash because the carousel is too much fun!
AnonDude 2017-05-25 12:59:26
Read excuse #15 here. As I say over and over again, stop worrying about hypothetical problems that only exist in your own head.Don't worry I wasn't making excuses. I was just being curious. As I said I have no experience with OLTRs yet and I don't personally know anyone else who does so I was just asking if you had some experiences like that out of curiosity. English is not my first language so maybe I should have been more clear on that. It's really no big deal.
Ralph 2017-05-25 19:57:57
woman actually leaving a man in an OLTR because she’s actually falling for one other particular guy is extremely rare.I know this is a bit OT but, I have seen you reference elsewhere that you "coach" your OLTR on how to handle her FB's when they get oneitisy, want her to leave you for them, etc. I was rather looking forward to an article on that topic, as I am considering my first OLTR right now. I'm curious why you bother with this coaching etc. if it's so rare though? I would also assume this would be rather common, especially on the female end of things.
Blackdragon 2017-05-25 20:08:52
I’m curious why you bother with this coaching etc. if it’s so rare though?The coaching is for when the guys get oneitis for her, not for when she gets feelings. Guys get oneitis all the time, so of course they're going to fall for your MLTR/OLTR if she fucks them. That's standard stuff and happens all the time. She needs to know how to handle it. Moreover, what do you think happens to her attraction for these men when they start fawning all over her, kissing her ass, calling/texting her every day, etc? It goes down. That's why I actually like it when side-guys of a woman I'm seeing get oneitis for her. It makes my job a lot easier.
Ty 2017-05-25 23:10:10
Roosh stating that when he gets married he’s going to make sure his future wife is no more than a 7 in attractiveness. (Ugh. A 7 wife? Yeah. Sign me up for that. Sounds great, particularly if you’re monogamous and not allowed to have sex with anyone else. What a great system!)OK, but then you contradict yourself in the linked article "Your Main Girl Should Not Be Your Hottest" where you say yourself that your own high-end MLTRs or OLTR have mostly been 8s. So what is the difference? You're still limiting the attractiveness of your main girl.
Blackdragon 2017-05-25 23:28:43
OK, but then you contradict yourself in the linked article “Your Main Girl Should Not Be Your Hottest” where you say yourself that your own high-end MLTRs or OLTR have mostly been 8s. So what is the difference? You’re still limiting the attractiveness of your main girl.There is no contradiction, but your question is a good one. 1. My high-end MLTR's and OLTR's have been hot, 8's and 9's (at least to me; it's all subjective). Not average. Not cute. Hot. Pink Firefly is hot. My last girlfriend-like relationship (HBM) was hot (until she started gaining weight later in the relationship). The serious one before her was hot. Roosh doesn't want a woman anywhere near hot. He's been very clear about that. 2. I have never purposely screened out hot chicks for possible future serious relationships with me. That's insane!!! Roosh is actually screening out hot girls for his future wife. Crazy! But that's what monogamy does. (What a great system!) 3. Even if I were to screen out hot girls for OLTR (which I don't and never would), our reasoning is completely different. I said it's a good idea that your main girl not be your hottest in order to control your own frame and oneitis tendencies. I also said that you don't need your main girl to be the hottest because you'll have hot and/or younger FB's on the side whenever you want (or at least you should). I've also said that you can't rely on your main girl being hot because of a thing called "aging" where someday she won't be as hot, assuming you want a very long-term (10+ year) relationship/marriage. If you're only with your long-term GF or wife because she's physically hot, what are you going to do when she gets into her 40's, 50's, or 60's? Married Alphas constantly have problem as they get older; it's a very bad long-term model. Instead, let her age and get older (not fat, but older), stay with her, keep loving her, and bang younger hottie FB's on the side if/when you need to. Much better. The only reason guys like Roosh want their wives to be average-looking (not hot like mine) is to reduce the odds of their wives cheating. They're monogamous and thus have to constantly worry about women cheating on them, which is a huge waste of energy in my opinion. I don't have that problem, and I have better things to do.
Anon 2017-05-26 00:07:35
Blackdragon makes a major error here - he implies that a man's looks are the primary determinant of his attractiveness. As he and the rest of us know, that is not the case.
Blackdragon 2017-05-26 00:26:56
Blackdragon makes a major error here – he implies that a man’s looks are the primary determinant of his attractiveness.If you read the article, I was mostly focused on women's attractiveness. Not sure how that's an error, particularly a "major" one.
anon1 2017-05-26 00:27:21
Roosh has stated before that he would stay faithful to his wife until she got into her 40s (though if he's dating below average women it'll be shorter). Once she gets to that age, then he would cheat on her. With Roosh climbing up there in age, I wonder how long it will be before he ties the knot and goes down the rabbit hole of destruction he's built for himself. In many ways I feel sorry for Roosh since he is redeemable, but he may acutally have to fall to be redeemed and get his life back on track.
POB 2017-05-26 08:22:07
I see no problem watching guys like Roosh spreading the word about seduction or getting laid. Problem starts when they begin to exponentially grow their audience and feel important enough to Change the Worldᵀᴹ or Save Mankindᵀᴹ.
Anon 2017-05-26 13:32:15
<i>If you read the article, I was mostly focused on women’s attractiveness. Not sure how that’s an error, particularly a “major” one.</i> You said attractive people in the title and elsewhere. You may want to edit that.. Plenty of good-looking men have bad game (from outdated SP) and do badly with women beyond the first 30 minutes of the interaction with them. They become beta, have oneitis, etc., as we know..
Michal 2017-05-26 13:57:57
@Anon, BD said attractive, not phisically atractive. From a standpoint of a man it may be the same but for women attractive usually means high status and handsome usually means reasonably fit well groomed and dressed.
Gil Galad 2017-05-26 14:27:38
What Michal said. "Attractive" when said about women tends to just mean a great physique, because that's hardly all that matters sexually speaking: we all *can* appreciate some mental pluses, but in terms of what determines whether a chick has options or not, physique rules (ie she can be a bitch AND dumb AND gameless and still have an army of "quality" guys chasing her, if she's hot). Of course if she prefers "serious" relationships with the more 2.0 type, then she'll have to work on those mental qualities to some extent. With men, "attractive" is better seen as a package which includes physical appearance, grooming, game, status, etc. So it's acceptable to say "attractive people" = hot chicks + men who "have it", with "it" being a bunch of factors that add up, with appearance being or not being the dominant factor.
Michal 2017-05-26 16:17:47
Andrew Lighthall 2017-05-26 16:19:33
I bought and read the Unchained book...how do I start over from nothing? If only I'd come across this Alpha 2.0 philosophy years ago, but I didn't I'm 200lbs over weight, 47 yrs old, my wife just stopped being physically intimate with me 3 years ago, not because of the weight-we both have been fat for years, me more so than her-she just agreed that we both were not happy and decided on an open marriage for sex--big joke on me. I gave everything to my marriage-worked a crap but steady job, chose kids instead of going to college at a young enough age, thought I was making the right move for them. Now....now I've got no money, no marketable skills, completely isolated-no one wants to be friends with a fatty, trust me. I'm near utter despair because I see how easy it could have been for me, I'm not a stupid man, just didn't have the knowledge or foresight. What do I do now? One thing I got going for me: Been working out for over a year, hard, with a trainer. Lost 50 lbs on my own, finally have the eating under control. Losing, but not fast enough. At 400 lbs, I'm in the best shape physically since probably age 38. I am so lonely, so desperate. I haven't had sex with anyone in over 3 years, with very little contact at all with my wife or anyone else. What chance do I have? I'm in a world of tech that I don't understand, I see how easy these women are today, damn you guys got it good! Please, I just need a direction. Not much time left to make something out of my life, starting over again. Please, what is my path to at least having a shot of a few years of living even a modicum of a Alpha 2.0 lifestyle? Or is it over and time for the shotgun? Cause that's how I feel. Thanks to any who respond.
Gil Galad 2017-05-26 16:57:31
@Andrew Lighthall: it is not time for the shotgun. First, if you're feeling seriously suicidal, get some counseling. If and when you get *that* more under control, start prioritizing. I imagine you will first have to get a reliable source of income (or more than one); then (or simultaneously IF you can), start trying to lose weight. Depending on your level of addiction to various foods, you may or may not need some kind of coaching for that too; the bottom line is that you absolutely need to lose way more weight. Since you're not on the young side, this isn't just about your woman life or your self-esteem, it's literally about staying alive; being that overweight in one's forties or later is super dangerous. Star writing down what you eat. That alone can help decrease it. Try counting calories and categorizing food based on how unhealthy it is; the website T-Nation (section "nutrition") might help. Find out the amount that makes your weight stable, and shave a few hundred daily calories from that: it should make you lose weight slowly, but steadily. Since you're that overweight, vigorous exercise (for now) may not be a good idea; but get a gym membership or a treadmill at your place, and start getting some regular, obligatory mileage per week. Doesn't matter much if you're spreading it over multiple days or just 1-2 big sessions, but get walking and build up your mileage - and resist the additional hunger that this might give you. By the way, veggies may help with this because you can eat a ton of it and create an illusion of being full while ingesting very few calories. Stuff that salad, broccoli, etc down your throat. Read a bunch of articles or watch a bunch of tutorials on weight training and fat loss. Here too, T-Nation can help a lot (I am NOT advertising for them and have no link with them whatsoever; just citing a website I've found very helpful). Once you get some understanding of how that stuff works, introduce yourself to barbells and dumbbells; get a personal coach if you have the means by then. Eventually you should be lifting 2-4 times per week (if only brief sessions) and doing at least 7 weekly miles on the treadmill (preferably most at a brisk walk or faster). Weigh yourself and micromanage your diet; if you're plateauing, decrease the calories or up the exercise (not both at a time; can be hazardous); if you're losing weight too fast (more than about 4 pounds per week), that too may be dangerous so be reasonable and beware the signs of exhaustion etc. A steady 3 pounds per week at first and then 1-2 pounds once you're under 300lbs or so is quite okay (If you tall, it's not necessary to lose *that* much weight; but in all cases you absolutely need to get under 300). At that point you'll be in a better situation for the next level, ie putting the Unchained Man's and this blog's advice into action; but again, you can start that earlier and in parallel if you can. Good luck.
Parade 2017-05-26 18:23:42
@andrew Before you spend any more time chasing tail I'd recommend you see a therapist. An actual one, several of the things you're saying would require professional advice. Even if you do end up getting laid in your current state you're going to catch feelings for her way too fast, and acting needy is not a turn on. Or, if all you want is to get laid and you're just being hyperbolic, see a prostitute in an area where it's legal.
Amanda 2017-05-27 08:40:34
hey BD, would you say that you objectify women? If not. what do you classify as women objectification?
Sachmo 2017-05-27 09:43:11
@BD Going to respectfully disagree regarding OLTR falling in love with one of her side guys. The NY Times recently did a long piece on Open Marriage (crazy I know) and in a number of couples they profiled, the women had a side guy who she fell in love with. In one of the cases, they actually all moved in together, so it was she, her husband, and her boyfriend. Whole article is here in case you are curious: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/magazine/is-an-open-marriage-a-happier-marriage.html The book, Opening Up, which actually interviews something like 200 Open Relationships had a lot of similar situations. It basically boils down to the fact that men in open relationships are generally able to have FBs and not get attached. Women in open relationships tend to get attached to their FBs and upgrade them all the way to OLTRs with equal status to their 'primary guy'. A lot of these OLTR relationships then become these weird triad or 4 person group living situation which seem like a recipe for all kinds of drama. Granted, all of these guys profiled in these books / articles seem like 'Betas' dragged into an Open Relationship when their wives basically cheated on them. I guess if a situation like this were to happen to you, you would probably NEXT your girl, or downgrade her to an FB or something. But I think AnonDude's point is a valid one. Women in Open Relationships do fall in love with their side pieces.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-05-27 10:52:26
Political correctness detected! Initiating red pill countermeasures now:
hey BD, would you say that you objectify women?BD will obviously answer this how he wants, but speaking for the red pill community in general - There is no such thing as sexual objectification. It is a socially constructed fiction invented by lesbian separatists and heterophobic bigots. If I were to describe a sexual situation involving either a man and woman, a woman with multiple men, or a man with multiple women, as well as the back story that led up to it, a sex-negative prude will describe the scenario as sexually degrading and objectifying to the woman, "thus creating a culture of disrespect for women in which misogynists can flourish, hence ultimately contributing to rape culture." Whereas a sex-positive woman with a high sex drive will describe the exact same sexual scenario as sexually empowering to the woman and a beautiful example of female sexual fulfillment.
If not. what do you classify as women objectification?Sexual objectification of women - the belief that women are anything other than non-physical spirits with beautiful souls. Any action taken, speech expressed, or thought formed based on the assumption that women even have physical bodies, or that those bodies have a post-pubescent or sexual aspect to them = sexual objectification. In other words, the concept of sexual objectification is nothing more than the heterophobic demonization of male heterosexuality and normal heterosexual expression. Examples of "sexual objectification" that I heard from heterophobic PC bigots: 1. A man masturbating in the privacy of his own home, while fantasizing about a female friend of his. Because his friend does not know about these sexual feelings of his, he is "objectifying her" by sexualizing her without her permission, thus dehumanizing her in the form of taking away her agency and contributing to "rape culture." 2. A man admitting his sexual feelings for a woman, thus "objectifying her" by "diminishing" her "beautiful soul" in favor of her body, thus being told to "check his entitlement" because sex is "not the most important thing in the world," which apparently means it cannot exist at all. 3. Any practical distinction between being a heterosexual vs. being an asexual. In order to avoid "objectifying" women, a man must be an asexual in practice and never admit that women are anything other than non-physical spirits with beautiful souls. The concept of "sexual objectification" = lesbian separatist heterophobia! That's all folks!
Blackdragon 2017-05-27 11:20:00
Please, what is my path to at least having a shot of a few years of living even a modicum of a Alpha 2.0 lifestyle? Or is it over and time for the shotgun? Cause that’s how I feel.Please seek therapy. Once you get to a more normal baseline, start executing the steps in my book, one at time. Take it slow. I was in your position once; overweight, divorced, no woman skills, etc. There's light at the end of the tunnel, I promise.
hey BD, would you say that you objectify women?Yes, almost all people, men and women both, objectify the opposite sex at the beginning of most dating interactions. Men do it when women have big boobs, women do it to men when he rolls up in a $150,000 Mercedes. Once you start talking to the other person and find the person is actually nice (not an asshole/bitch), the temporary objectification ends instantly. I disagree with Jack in that I think objectification exists; I just think it's A) a normal, biological reality in both sexes that isn't evil or harmful (barring rare exceptions), and B) usually very temporary, usually lasting only a few minutes.
Going to respectfully disagree regarding OLTR falling in love with one of her side guys.I'm not giving you an opinion, I'm giving you an observation. An observation isn't something you can disagree with, only an opinion is. But if you want to believe other sources over me, that's fine. Everyone should look at all the data and make up their own minds. Just make sure you don't use the downsides of OLTR to justify long-term monogamy. We know that doesn't work.
Mayrick Dubois 2017-05-27 13:48:22
Sachmo, I mostly agree with your opinion about how women often fall in love with or have strong feelings for the men they are involved with sexually. It is one of the big differences between men and women. Women are wired to have those feelings for someone they are with sexually. Men are much better at separating their feelings from the sex relationship. It can be very hard for women not to fall into that situation, however, I do believe it can happen. Women just have to work harder to separate their feelings.
Mayrick Dubois 2017-05-27 14:05:15
Andrew, I agree with all the responses you got so far from your comment. I suggest: 1. Seek help from a therapist 2. Focus on losing weight and getting healthy and adopt a healthy lifestyle. It is great you are working with a trainer and lost 50 lbs so far! Keep it up! It will be a slow process and will take time...don't get discouraged. 3. Look into options in your area for new career training and getting new skills so you can get different employment and become financially in strong shape . It will be a hard journey but will be so worth it. You will be very happy you made the changes. Your are not too old! Your still have many years to have a happy life. The key is perseversence!
Anon 2017-05-27 14:50:14
Michel and Gil Galad, Unfortunately, the original article says :
Gil Galad 2017-05-27 15:42:35
@Anon: that assumes looks don't participate to a man's attractiveness. I was only saying they are less central than in women. A good-looking man has more options, all other things being equal, so yeah, he's more likely to cheat. Besides, your opening statement was that BD made a "major error". I don't know what's making you plow on like this - you sound like you were looking forward to finally "catching BD" making a mistake or something - , but no, there's no major error, there may be a minor one at worst. If anything, the "debate" was over when BD said he was *focusing* on women's attractiveness. Yeah, he said "people", and he focused on "women". What a sacrilege.
Anon 2017-05-27 16:12:47
Gil Galad, Well, no. I want to learn too, like everyone else. But I just think too many PUA sites have a lot of contradictions, and that looks do in fact matter a lot in determining a man's success (PUAs claiming otherwise are selling hope to men who have little chance of success due to substandard looks (or the wrong ethno-race, etc.))... Oh well..
Andrew Lighthall 2017-05-27 19:03:35
Thanks to all who responded, you can't know how much it meant to me. My diet and weight are the only things working for me at the present. A nice side effect of my major blue's, or possible depression is my appetite has plummeted. I've been working at the gym for over a year now, at least 3x per week, going very hard, dropped 50. My biggest victory was dropping my body fat % below 50% this year. I'm never going back to eating junk. The last couple weeks have been a breaking point, so I was pretty down on myself. I am reaching out for help, finding anyone who will listen. The mistakes I made are my own, even though I believed I was doing what a real man was supposed to do in regards to family, and sacrificing career/social life to work hard for my kids and wife. Thank you for all the suggestions, but most of all thanks for caring enough to try to help. Feeling isolated is a terrible thing, being isolated worse. On a positive note, my wife actually made an effort and spent time with me today, all day. Been months since she cared enough to even try that. Mayrick, thanks for the "not too old" comment, 🙂 BD, thanks for the encouragement.
Lovergirl 2017-05-28 08:07:24
@ Andrew Lighthall- the easiest way to lose weight is to monitor your calories. Use an app on your phone like My Fitness Pal or My Plate. Combining that with exercise is even better but they let you know how much you have to exercise to burn off a certain meal. Then you can plan accordingly. It also helps you become more aware of what you are putting in your mouth each day and helps you re-train yourself into better habits. You also don't have to deny yourself any specific food completely as long as it fits into your planned caloric intake for the day. Obviously cutting back on bread and sugar helps too. Don't give up- everything definitely can get better for you!
Lovergirl 2017-05-28 08:13:07
I've seen a lot of open relationships where the women falls for the other guy- this is super common in the swinger community, with all the "hotwives" falling for the more alpha guys they are having sex with. Women generally aren't interested in having sex with a guy that is less alpha than the guy they love but if they find one that is more alpha and start sleeping with him they are more prone to becoming emotionally attached. There are some guys like that who can keep a distance or be respectful of a relationship but not a lot.
Blackdragon 2017-05-28 12:40:45
Oh shit! I just realized I violated BD’s Rule #4.This is your final warning regarding feeding trolls. One more time and you will be banned. (For the record, Jack Outside the Box, Gil Galad, and joelsuf have used up all their warnings regarding feeding trolls.)
Blackdragon 2017-05-28 12:52:06
Besides, your opening statement was that BD made a “major error”. I don’t know what’s making you plow on like this – you sound like you were looking forward to finally “catching BD” making a mistake or something – , but no, there’s no major error, there may be a minor one at worst.Anon has spent a decent amount of time uselessly trying to argue with me in various threads, including saying that I'm a natural and I was good with women when I was 20 (even though I didn't lose my virginity until I was 23). He appears to be an angry young guy looking to stir up trouble rather than make any valid points.
POB 2017-05-28 15:43:06
@ Andrew I don't have much to add besides what the other guys said. Believe me when I say most of us have been in a bad spot at some part of our lives. I'm not a therapist, but I know suicidal thoughts are not that uncommon when we hit rock bottom. There's ALWAYS a way out to a better place, believe me. Seek professional help ASAP. About your fitness goals - I WOULD NOT start my journey on any bodybuilding forums or websites. I've been to those advertising jungles - more times than I can count - and they are not the best places to gather support. Plus there's a lot of cluttered information so it's really hard to separate what's useful to a guy in your situation. My advice is to stick to your trainer, your doctors and your nutritionist and do everything exactly as they tell you. Once you're closer to your goals, than you can browse the web to expand your knowledge. Good luck man!
Wotan 2017-05-29 07:57:12
Nowadays to get laid off with a 7-8 ranged woman is far too simple if you follow up just the rules: 1.- make a solid presence in the internet 2.- set up , for instance, a podcast to aim at your target 3.- decent body shape (get rid of the fat asap) 4.- keep the game up. It is a matter of statistics: there are out there millions of available women. The likehood to get a turn-over of 5-10 those girls a month is pretty high if you use the right strategy.
Marty 2017-05-29 22:12:48
A lot of these OLTR relationships then become these weird triad or 4 person group living situation which seem like a recipe for all kinds of drama.I ran into one of these the other day. It was even an open relationship where the wife had her side guy (emotional and physical relationship), all 3 were swinging together, but the husband wasn't allowed to have any side girls at all. Wife was super jealous and very high drama. Scary shit! But not even close to BD style OLTR. Just a beta guy getting pushed around by his wife.
Granted, all of these guys profiled in these books / articles seem like ‘Betas’ dragged into an Open Relationship when their wives basically cheated on them.Answered your own questions here. Lots of open relationships and swingers out there who have no clue what they are doing. Lots of Beta guys, lots of alpha females. They start doing it for all sorts of reasons. They may not be monogamous, but you can't compare them to BD's Alpha 2 lifestyle. The guys are doing everything wrong, act like Beta's or Alpha 1's and their women start to react exactly as you would expect them too!!
Blackdragon 2017-05-29 22:22:21
Answered your own questions here. Lots of open relationships and swingers out there who have no clue what they are doing. Lots of Beta guys, lots of alpha females.Correct. Of the two people I've heard of who actually had their OLTR leave them for one of their side-FB's, both of them were violating the rules of OLTR all over the place. Their lovers were doing things with their side-FB's like going out on dates with them, spending significant time with them, having long phone calls with them, etc. NO! That's not an OLTR! That's a wildly dysfunctional open relationship! Any time you see chaos with people in a nonmonogamous relationship, it's not because nonmonogamy doesn't work, it's because you're seeing two people doing it wrong.
CrabRangoon 2017-05-30 08:09:53
@Marty "all 3 were swinging together, but the husband wasn’t allowed to have any side girls at all. Wife was super jealous and very high drama. Scary shit! But not even close to BD style OLTR. Just a beta guy getting pushed around by his wife." You summed it up with that last sentence-this is NOT an OLTR at all. Just a huge dominant woman with a pussy man. I hooked up with a girl like that once who claimed to be into open relationships. SHe was married, had cheated on pretty much all her ex's, etc... but when I started seeing other girls she flipped out and saw nothing wrong in how she handled her own dysfunctional relationships. Chicks have that weird knack for rationalizing their own bullshit while shaming you for the same behavior.
Harry 2017-05-30 15:01:04
BD how do you monitor whether your oltr doesnt overstep boundaries with fbs to make sure its just sex?
Blackdragon 2017-05-30 15:43:52
BD how do you monitor whether your oltr doesnt overstep boundaries with fbs to make sure its just sex?I don't. I'm Alpha 2.0 so I don't want to spend my time monitoring anyone. I have a Mission to work on. In an OLTR, you have to utilize this thing called "trust." Distrusting what your partner tells you is what monogamous relationships are for.
The Virgin Mary 2017-05-30 18:45:18
I am going to put all my "business" out there since it's anonymous... otherwise I would never say a word. I'm a married, very attractive, petite but curvy Brazilian woman and cheated on my husband twice before he agreed to an Open Marriage. He didn't divorce me because 1. I'm 10 years younger than him. 2. I make more money than him. 3. I'm attractive. If I wasn't, he would be gone. Bottom line: I cheated because it's so easy! It's all because of social media/internet. It's like a drug... the attention you get. And you can be super picky since you have, literally, every man at your fingertips wanting you and telling you how beautiful you are. It's intoxicating. This post is 100% correct. I could NEVER be monogamous and didnt admit it to myself for quite sometime.
The Virgin Mary 2017-05-30 18:48:51
I would rather live a life of "oh wells" than "what ifs" especially since woman age like milk.
Ralph 2017-05-30 20:05:04
I think all the comments on this post indicate that we really need a post giving detailed info on how to really correctly get into and manage an OLTR style relationship.
The Virgin Mary 2017-05-30 20:13:27
There is no "one size fits all" unfortunately.
Blackdragon 2017-05-30 22:07:34
I could NEVER be monogamous and didnt admit it to myself for quite sometime.Most women can't (or men), at least not forever.
I think all the comments on this post indicate that we really need a post giving detailed info on how to really correctly get into and manage an OLTR style relationship.That's far beyond the scope of a single blog post. I will be updating my open relationships ebook later in the year, and I'll have more detail then. I'm also going to do a few podcasts on this for guys in the SMIC program. Until then, I can touch on aspects of OLTR management here at this blog, and I will.
Steve 2017-05-31 01:19:17
"I’m a married, very attractive, petite but curvy Brazilian woman and cheated on my husband twice before he agreed to an Open Marriage. He didn’t divorce me because 1. I’m 10 years younger than him. 2. I make more money than him. 3. I’m attractive. If I wasn’t, he would be gone." So why ru with him again? For the green card LOL. "the attention you get." Hard to give up this power coming at you from all sides of the road all day. Guys don't get that she goes to the beach while already having a bf intentionally so all the different guys can try their luck talking to her. Or hangs out in front of a shop for hours playing on her phone so guys can proposition romantically to her. I don't look really that good working 18 hour days. Girls who use to give me the time of day, now frown or stay neutral whenever I talk to them. Why work work work? To someday be rich, use botox, buy expensive clothes la la la.
Marty 2017-05-31 05:59:02
@steve She's married to a beta moron. He has no clue obviously. You shouldn't be worrying about her or him or what they are doing. BD has all the info you need to avoid this sort of stupid life. Keep focused on that and enjoy the good life.
Sachmo 2017-06-01 23:32:20
@BD "... Their lovers were doing things with their side-FB’s like going out on dates with them, spending significant time with them, having long phone calls with them, etc. NO! That’s not an OLTR! That’s a wildly dysfunctional open relationship! Any time you see chaos with people in a nonmonogamous relationship, it’s not because nonmonogamy doesn’t work, it’s because you’re seeing two people doing it wrong." But like you have said many times, any man will only control one half of the relationship. Of course you need things like TRUST -- and so in this particular aspect, mono and OLTR relationships have a similarity. You cannot and should not moniter your gf 24 hours / day. When you are not with her (and i agree with many of your posts, if you aren't living together you should really be spending most of your time on your MISSION) she can be doing anything. She can be calling her FB, going on dates, whatever. The same people that cheat in monogamous relationships will 'cheat' in OLTR relationships is basically my point. Human nature is what it is. Of course, as a man, you choose how you react to events around you. You can certainly downgrade a woman, start a new relationship, and move on -- but the *risk* factor is the same. I'm not saying that OLTRs never work, I'm basically saying that they have their own unique pitfalls, just as mono ones do. Mono Relationships = way less sex, more boring, more compromise, more stable. OLTR BD Style = way more sex, more time for individual pursuits (assuming you don't live together), less compromise, but also less stable. You have to evaluate your own place in life, and your objectives and choose which relationship style works best for you.
Blackdragon 2017-06-01 23:47:55
The same people that cheat in monogamous relationships will ‘cheat’ in OLTR relationships is basically my point.Incorrect. People in monogamous relationships need to cheat because (usually) they aren't getting enough sex or they aren't getting the quality sex they need/want. In an OLTR this isn't a problem; you can get all the sex from everyone you want or need. The only way to "cheat" in an OLTR is to get romantic with someone you're fucking. The way to cheat in a monogamous relationship is to just get sexual, in any way, with someone else. Thus it's far easier to cheat in a monogamous relationship. It's not even close.
Of course, as a man, you choose how you react to events around you. You can certainly downgrade a woman, start a new relationship, and move on — but the *risk* factor is the same.Incorrect again. A breakup in a monogamous relationship / marriage is far worse emotionally, logistically, and often financially than a breakup in an OLTR / OLTR marriage. That's one of the many advantages of OLTRs; the risk factor is far less than monogamy for when the relationship ends (and it almost always ends either way, monogamous or open).
Mono Relationships = way less sex, more boring, more compromise, more stable. OLTR BD Style = way more sex, more time for individual pursuits (assuming you don’t live together), less compromise, but also less stable.Incorrect again. I have no data that suggests correctly executed OLTRs are less stable than monogamy. If OLTR's were as unstable as you imply, I would be getting piles of email from men (and women) complaining about OLTR instability, complaining about losing partners to side-FB's, etc. Yet I don't. Ever. If you prefer monogamy over OLTR, that's fine; do whatever you like. But don't misrepresent OLTR's. You never see me misrepresenting monogamy to make my points.
Curtis Timsah 2017-06-02 07:11:35
After doing this dating thing for a lil while and living with someone, I have decided that it might be smart to test out a theory of mine with my current OLTR. So, I am SLOWLY moving in w/ her but I am still keeping my apartment too. ( 90 days in) Yes, you heard me right! I swear there is something about having or keeping my place that has this natural 'anti-control mechanism' built into it. She knows the reason I keep it is because I want a place to escape to temporarily or permanently because I flat out told her. I guarantee you that once I decided to give up my apartment the control, drama and issues would increase. Think of it like a Relationship Insurance Policy =). It does make me curious as to how many marriages (or live in OLTRs) would last or work out if the guy only went out and got him his own man cave or even travel trailer or something. Sure, she might want her own woman cave too but so what. Recently, she mentioned how I am wasting money by keeping it. So, I started renting it out on Airbnb to cover the rent lol. Don't fall for the excuses guys! Keep you a place for yourself, even if it is small and you will have a higher odds of keeping that great lady in your life longer if you decide to live together. Then she said, "what is the point of moving in if I am going to keep my own place too". I said: "well, are you saying you would prefer me to stay at my apartment then? I do kinda miss it...". Her: "oh no no I love you here all the time but just seems silly" Me: "it probably is but you know me lol ;)" I should mention that my place is only $800 per month and it rents out for $79 per night so after it rents out for 1 week, it is basically paid for. If you can't afford this, I recommend finding a Duplex or make separate rooms or living spaces in your home - a Guy Space and a Woman Space. This won't have the same effect that having your OWN place in YOUR name will of course.
Blackdragon 2017-06-02 20:16:08
I have decided that it might be smart to test out a theory of mine with my current OLTR. So, I am SLOWLY moving in w/ her but I am still keeping my apartment too. ( 90 days in) Yes, you heard me right!Yes, this is called the Dual Live-In OLTR, as I describe in my books. It works very well. The problem is that it's a little expensive for most. Renting it out on AirBnB is a good idea though; I know a few guys who do that.
It does make me curious as to how many marriages (or live in OLTRs) would last or work out if the guy only went out and got him his own man cave or even travel trailer or something. Sure, she might want her own woman cave too but so what.I'm planning on getting a cool camper when Pink moves in; I'm not 100% on that yet but I'm leaning heavily in that direction. I considered getting a separate studio apartment but it was too expensive. (And I don't want to take the time to rent the damn thing out; I'm too busy.) In my case, she has a corporate job so she'll be gone most of the workweek anyway, though this won't be the case forever.
roger 2017-06-04 01:35:36
Yep. Most people are so afraid of being alone, they are willing to settle for an unhappy marriage, some cheat, some just suffer.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-06-04 02:35:57
Yep. Most people are so afraid of being alone, they are willing to settle for an unhappy marriage, some cheat, some just suffer.Enough with the female melodrama. Not people. Women. Women are terrified of "dying alone." Women, not men, are the ones waking up in a cold sweat visualizing their old, lonely, and decrepit status, with only their cats licking their dead bodies when they finally pass away. When they taunt men about how we are going to die alone, poor, and lonely, if we don't get with the mainstream program and the female agenda, it is pure projection. Pure pathetic projection from a bunch of Disney cat ladies who have failed to enslave enough betas with their guilt trips. And you seem to be their chief ideological proponent, if your previous politically correct posts are any indication. I feel sorry for you roger.
Lovergirl 2017-06-04 07:51:10
I'm not so sure Jack. I run into a lot of 40+ guys who seem concerned about being alone. Men have a lot harder time after a divorce (in general, not all men). I'm a woman and I'm just at that point where I don't really feel the need to have a man in my home. Maybe I will feel differently when the kids are all grown up and gone but at this point I'm turned off by the idea. Yes I want to keep having sex (and I do) but not really live with someone.
Mayrick Dubois 2017-06-04 09:52:07
I agree with Lovergirl's comment on this because that is what I have seen over the years. Many men seem to be more concerned about being alone when they get older. Older men don't seem to handle being alone well and seem to have a harder time recovering from a divorce and breakup then the younger men. (Though many younger men seem to have a hard time as well, maybe not quite as much as the older ones) I have seen many older men quickly get remarried or back into a relationship because they did not handle being alone well. I think that would be a huge mistake but for them it seems to be a priority and they are willing to take the risk.
Blackdragon 2017-06-04 17:43:41
Not people. Women. Women are terrified of “dying alone.”No, most men worry about this too. Hordes of men have justified this stupid "dying alone" thing as reason enough to get monogamously married. (Though I agree Roger is posting at the wrong blog.)
UK_Player 2017-06-18 12:31:27
BD, you are probably aware of this stat, but even more alarming that attractiveness, the study states, that if a women is college educated and is a career gal, then if a divorce happens, 90% of the time it is her that files !!! incredible bad stats, so guys thinking they need to find a smart , hot girl and it will be all ok, could be in for disaster down the road. It basically means the college educated ones have much higher expectations of their men. They expect them to be loaded..... link is here ¹-² Brinig, M., Douglas, W.A. (2000). “These Boots Are Made for Walking: Why Most Divorce Filers are Women”. American Law and Economics Review 2 (1): 126–129. Retrieved from http://www.unc.edu/courses/2010fall/econ/586/001/Readings/Brinig.pdf
Curtis 2017-06-18 13:36:01
My OLTR is now wanting to get married possibly even though before she said she probably never would again and saw it as pointless. She also is nervous about trying a threesome and asked me if I required this etc. I said in order for me to even remotely consider Marriage again (not traditional marriage) it would have to be a porn star lifestyle basically. So, yes I'd want to be able to do threesomes and anything else I want. And vice versa. In my opinion the only people that should even be considering marriage are those that can do everything sexually together or its silly to even discuss it. So, men stop it and make it something that requires more sacrifice from the women If you are going to risk it.