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Avoid “Event” Dates
The word “date” is a tricky one, since it applies to a wide range of activities, vibes, and implications. The word “date” can mean everything from a quick one-hour meet at Starbucks where you order nothing and just talk, to going rock climbing at the local gym for two hours, to an extravagant evening with a fancy dinner, then a movie or a play, then drinks at home, then sex all night. The inadequate English language calls all three of these things "dates," yet they are not even close to being the same thing. All three of those things signal very different things to the woman you’re with.
-By Caleb Jones
An example of a dinner date is exactly that, when you take a woman out to dinner at a midrange-level restaurant (not a super fancy one, just a normal one), and that’s all you do while you’re out; just dinner, followed by perhaps going to one of your homes afterward for sex.An event date is when you do something with a woman that is:
1. Not at either of your homes.
2. Something beyond just going out to dinner or talking at a bar or a coffee shop; it’s something more; it’s an event.
3. Something that is not sexual in nature. Some examples of event dates are:
Going rock climbing together at the local gym Going to sing karaoke at a local bar (Just getting a drink or two at a bar is not an event date; getting up in front of people and singing is, particularity if that is your intention before you leave the house) Going on a hike (Going for a quick walk on the beach or at a local park is not an event date, but actually going hiking is) Going bowling, playing pool, going golfing, or any other fun sport-like activity Going to a theme park or carnival Having a picnic Going to see a movie at a movie theater (or a play) Going to a museum or art gallery
You can see what all these have in common; they are going “out,” take a long time, are far beyond just getting dinner or drinks, and are completely nonsexual in nature. Once you’re in an ongoing relationship with a woman where you’re hanging out and having sex regularly, if she’s a MLTR or above, you are more than welcome to go on event dates that if that’s something you both enjoy. No problem at all.The problem is doing event dates with women you have not had sex with twice yet. Consider this an iron rule: Never, ever take a woman on an event date until after you’ve had sex with her twice.
Very often, gold diggers, provider hunters, and women over age 33 will strongly suggest an event date for a first or second date. Societal Programming also strongly reinforces event dates as a first/second date option. Just Google around and you’ll see literally thousands of websites titled things like “7 Reasons Why Going Rock Climbing Is A Great First Date.” NO! If your goal is to get to sex as fast and as cheaply as possible, you must never, ever go on an event date with any woman until you’ve had sex with her twice. This is because going on an event date for a first or second date will actually drive down the odds of her have sex with you not only quickly, but ever.
The reason is it provides the entire wrong frame. I’ve talked about how your frame should be 85% player, 15% provider. An event date screams beta male provider. In terms of women’s three buttons, going on an event date pre-sex will place you in the category of Make Him Wait. Because of your provider, beta male, I-would-make-a-great-monogamous-husband-or-boyfriend frame, she’s going to make you wait for sex even if she was otherwise attracted to you. As always, the more a woman makes you wait, the lower your odds become of ever having sex with her. This is because the more time you take with her between the moment you first meet her and when you actually have sex (if you have sex, that is), the higher the odds of her finding something about you she doesn’t like, and of you doing or saying something she doesn't like, and of another man striking her fancy before you close the deal.
Yes, some women ask for event dates. No, you can’t do them. Just say something like, “You know, on Thursday I’m going to be a little tired after work. Let’s just meet up at the XYZ Bar and have a quiet drink.” Be polite, but be strong. About 80% the time, she won’t push it and she’ll agree to it. Yes, about 20% of the time, particularly if she’s over age 33, she’ll get a little pushy, and even offended. If this is the case, delete her number and move on. This is not a woman who is at all interested in having sex with a new man quickly. If you agree to her event date, you’ll just waste a lot of time and money and then not have sex with her, instead of cutting her loose now and saving yourself the aggravation.
Read that paragraph again because it’s important. A lot of you guys think that by giving into high-ASD demanding Dominants, you’ll get laid. No, you won’t. You’ll just waste a lot of time and cash while not having any sex. When you say no to a woman who demands an event date pre-sex, you don’t lose; you win, even if you don’t get laid (which you probably won’t at that point anyway, since as soon as a woman demands an event date pre-sex, your odds have already gone down regardless of what your response is).
Once you achieve Lock-In with a new woman by having sex with her two times on two different occasions, then event dates are okay if you deem her to be a MLTR (not a FB). If she then asks for an event date, you are free to say yes if you wish. She’s proven she likes having sex with you and will likely be around sexually for a prolonged period of time, so she’s earned the right to have event dates with you, assuming that’s something you enjoy. By the way, the same thing could be said of dinner dates as well. It’s just that event dates are even worse. Reserve those only for women you’ve had sex with twice, and don’t give into any woman who demands otherwise.
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Shayme 2017-11-02 10:11:29
This post is on the money.
JEB 2017-11-02 10:15:18
This article should be titled "Avoid Event AND dinner dates". Back when I discovered this blog (and bought The Unchained Man), I implemented the system and only went on one hour coffee/drink dates, along with following no-kiss rules etc. I have yet to try NOT having sex with women on the 2nd date at my own place (if I've followed everything correctly, at least). Many women will gladly tell you about the beta losers buying them dinner, taking them on hour-long trips somewhere for no apparrent reason and doing all sorts of beta behaviour. Many men literally use 100 % provider 0 % player game, and the results are as you'd expect. I can't over-exaggerate how much you should avoid any non-casual setting for a first date, and how important it is to hold off on kissing, being romantic (in the non-sexual sense) and anything related until the 2nd date. It usually takes between 5-60 minutes into date two before you kiss for the first time and start ripping off each others clothes, and the results are consistent. A very important article. I suggest that you newcomers reform your dating life to fit this style ASAP. Everything else is completely counterproductive, unless your goal is to be a beta provider.
The New Yorker 2017-11-02 10:27:48
What about younger hot guy with cougar dates? Does the young guy go 100% player or 85/15 as usual? And are there any other necessary method adjustments for younger guys going on dates with cougars? And speaking of dates, I remember BD saying that sometimes social circle game doesn’t even require a first date, and that directly inviting the woman to your place is fine. So do I treat that date like the second date? As in escalate all the way? Or is there more to it? By the way BD, is a post on social circle game high or low on your article priority list?
johhnybegood 2017-11-02 10:40:42
This is true but there are many gray areas. I take many women out for a brief walk around the river after the bar/ coffee if I feel like vibes are good or sex is in the cards. It's a great 'multiple locations now we're allowed to have sex' kinda shit. At least the old logic that venue changes were good. Also, about two ONS ago, a girl and I had a couple glasses of wine at a bar. She still wanted to hang out after (usually a great sign for sex) -- she mentioned she wanted to play pool for some reason (her idea). I went to a local dive hipster bar that had one coin-operated pool table (a dollar per game) ... we got a couple beers, played exactly one quick game while drinking and flirting and making out, then went home to bang. In this case, playing pool at some dark whiskey dive bar --- well it probably made me look more like a rock n roll badass than a 'provider' --- especially since this was a random Wed night. Bar was also a two block walk away, intimate, smaller crowd, hot blonde bartender - the vibe was good. I like the idea of 'venue change' -- it's almost like having a second date. More chance for banging. But yeah the initial logic should be --- keep it simple, cheap, easily controlled situation (bar or coffee). An event can be a distraction - it's usually not part of the 'will we bang' equation. I wouldn't shy away from doing them as an improvisation though.
JudoJohn 2017-11-02 11:00:51
A timely reminder....I'm getting a surprising number of Tinder matches, scoring a date is inevitable....it's somewhat nerve wracking to implement BD's system but it looks like a solid plan for long term happiness. The fleeting moments in my life where I had sexual access to more than one women are remembered fondly. Fuck dinner dates entirely, I'm a good cook with a solid kitchen. My comment is that this post also seems to describe the difference between a low end MLTR and a high end MLTR. I know you said MLTR and above, but it's not impossible for me to imagine having MLTR's that exclusively hang out at my place (I have a nice place) as well as MLTR's I actually do stuff with. Am I off base here? And climbing, preferably outside, is awesome, but agreed.....avoid until burn in has occurred, loud and clear.
VSmilex 2017-11-02 12:22:27
Playing pool at a bar while having a few drinks and then getting her to your place is a totally cool first date. I have done it a few times and it works quite well. You get to joke around, flirt, kino by showing her how to hold the cue correctly (most girls suck at pool) and if you go to the gym, you get to casually flex in front of her, which doesn't harm your chances either. You do need to try and close the deal that same night though, as opposed to BD's two-date system. Other than that, a solid advice overall.
Replicant 2017-11-02 12:27:39
I'd upper the bar to 4-5 times we have sex before consider event and dinner dates. Sometimes the gold diggers or the provider hunters go way far of what they are used in order to lock you in. Beyond that number you have a high chance that she's really into you and not following (mostly) her agenda. Maybe the fuck dinner date at my place I would consider it for the third date (and second time sex) to lock her depending of her background, story, etc. Really guys, this is so simple. You can save so much money, time (very important) and avoid a lot of frustrations.
Callahan 2017-11-02 12:44:51
At last an interesting article! I was bored at reading relationships-related articles in this blog in the last year almost. I wish you wrote more dating, seduction articles like this!
Parade 2017-11-02 13:08:09
This is interesting because it runs counter to my experiences. I have the best luck with event dates, and almost no luck with the 'spend an hour at the bar' dates. But event dates are rare for me, and I have a couple rules I always follow. 1: it needs to be something I'm interested in doing even if she flaked on me. 2: I'm not paying for any of her side of it. If I'm going to some meusem or dancing she's paying her own entrance fees. 3. It needs to be something where the focus is on you+her, not the activity. An an example of what I mean by 3 is rock climbing. This is a bad event date because it's mostly solo and the physical exhertion means you're focused on the activity not the chick. Going to a museum that you want to go to anyway is a better choice...lots of incidental crap to talk to her about, and neither of you are exhausted or trying to focus on something else. Or hiking: another bad one. Too much planning and physical exhertion. Going dancing? That can work, but most women are terrible dancers.(if you are as well, great, but if you're decent you'll hate it) but it puts the focus on the two of you and, while there's physical stress, there's also lots of touching. Another important ant thing is that you don't travel there together and it's something easy to leave early.
everbodyhatesscott 2017-11-02 13:21:55
This is interesting because it runs counter to my experiences.Same. But I'll usually do something that takes less than an hour ( bowling, mini golf, or pool seem to work well for) and they have to meet me at my place and we'll go over together instead of just meeting there. I'll also usually do something that costs less than $30 I usually do it as a second date. I've done one event date for a first date and it led nowhere and have adopted BD's first date rules mostly.
JudoJohn 2017-11-02 13:29:52
Going to a museum that you want to go to anyway is a better choice…lots of incidental crap to talk to her about, and neither of you are exhausted or trying to focus on something else.Admittedly new to the game, having blundered into LTR's most of my life....I've thought about using the local museum (as well as the botanical garden) as a standby first date venue. I actually have a year long pass and can bring a guest....a bargain at $70. I'm an older dude swiping right with a fudged Facebook age (blocking it on Tinder), and I have the smart but not nerdy look rocking. Like attracts like. It seems like the museum good chance to get a good read on one another, physically and mentally, along with opportunities for some kino, but it almost seems too nerdy.
Max 2017-11-02 13:42:22
Great advice. Like JEB was saying above, avoid event and dinner dates. Most guys are propositioned "Dinner Dates", which is an excuse to spend your money and flop on you.
HarryFlashman 2017-11-02 15:08:10
One of the best dating articles you've written! Oh the time, money and aggravation I could have saved if only I had followed this while dating. I was thinking back and laughing as I read this. Every single girl I took on an event date prior to lock in turned out to be a disaster. Most, I NEVER got to sex with. I wasted boat loads of money and countless hours, to not get laid. One 33+ girl particularly stands out in my mind. What a fool I was.
Roberto 2017-11-02 15:26:06
I’d upper the bar to 4-5 times we have sex before consider event and dinner dates.I tend to agree – more than twice, certainly for anything more than a very "basic" dinner, and no museum visits, country walks etc till I've had sex with her on three, four separate occasions.
Roberto 2017-11-02 15:30:42
Also, about two ONS ago, a girl and I had a couple glasses of wine at a bar. She still wanted to hang out after...ONSs are different from what BD is talking about. He's talking about "locking her in/setting her up" for repeated, hopefully (if you want it) reasonably regular sex. If I know it's going to be once only (typically if I'm traveling) then the approach is different. [Sorry, couldn't add this second quote to my post above, for some reason.]
zaker 2017-11-02 16:24:17
BD, did you happen to read Mark Manson's Models? His advice is the opposite, he advices to change the venue twice , so three venues/activities for a total of ~3h. I wonder what are your thoughts on this, although Manson's approach is more into relationships leaning towards MLTR than FB, which kinda gives away my personality now.
Pancake Mouse 2017-11-02 18:05:15
Sort of off-topic, but what does Blackdragon recommend for the second date at your place that leads to sex? I've been doing dinner, but sometimes I'm not in the mood to make food or the timing is off. JED, would love to know what these at-home activities are that lead to sex in "5-60" minutes, because I've rarely made it happen that fast.
Blackdragon 2017-11-02 18:48:50
This article should be titled “Avoid Event AND dinner dates”.Yeah, probably. I figured men already familiar with my work would already know that as an obvious fact. Perhaps I was wrong.
What about younger hot guy with cougar dates? Does the young guy go 100% player or 85/15 as usual?Yes. Too much player and you may scare off cougars. Remember, cougars are cougars, but they're still over age 33. Your odds are better if you show a little "good boy." A little.
And are there any other necessary method adjustments for younger guys going on dates with cougars?Many, but that would be getting too off-topic. Good idea for a future post.
And speaking of dates, I remember BD saying that sometimes social circle game doesn’t even require a first date, and that directly inviting the woman to your place is fine.Correct.
So do I treat that date like the second date? As in escalate all the way? Or is there more to it?Yes, escalate.
By the way BD, is a post on social circle game high or low on your article priority list?Low.
I take many women out for a brief walk around the river after the bar/ coffee if I feel like vibes are good or sex is in the cards.A simple venue change like that, particularly just walking around the river, is not an "event" date and is perfectly allowed. I've done that myself.
I know you said MLTR and above, but it’s not impossible for me to imagine having MLTR’s that exclusively hang out at my place (I have a nice place) as well as MLTR’s I actually do stuff with. Am I off base here?Correct. I've had MLTR's in both categories you describe.
Playing pool at a bar while having a few drinks and then getting her to your place is a totally cool first date. I have done it a few times and it works quite well.Telling a woman you're going to go out to a bar to have a few drinks, and then while you're there, as a "spontaneous" thing, playing a little pool because a pool table is sitting there unused right next to you, is okay. Telling a woman that the two of you should "go play some pool" as a first date is not okay... that's an event. See the difference?
I’d upper the bar to 4-5 times we have sex before consider event and dinner dates.I don't disagree at all. 2 times is a minimum, not a maximum.
I was bored at reading relationships-related articles in this blog in the last year almost. I wish you wrote more dating, seduction articles like this!When I wrote more dating/seduction articles, I had guys complain I was writing too much dating/seduction articles and not enough about relationships "because that's why I read your blog BD." So tough shit; I can't please everyone. My general thought is that the internet is full of dating/seduction advice already, and you have many resources for that, whereas I am (I think) the only nonmonogamous relationship advice guy for heterosexual men, so I tend to lean more in that direction.
BD, did you happen to read Mark Manson’s Models?No but I'm pretty familiar with it, and Mark's other work.
His advice is the opposite, he advices to change the venue twice , so three venues/activities for a total of ~3h. I wonder what are your thoughts on thisAs I said above, a venue change on a first date, especially if it's very simple ("lets go for a walk outside") and feels spontaneous, is perfectly fine and they can work well.
although Manson’s approach is more into relationships leaning towards MLTR than FB, which kinda gives away my personality now.Incorrect. Manson's approach is monogamy. (He's traditionally married.)
Sort of off-topic, but what does Blackdragon recommend for the second date at your place that leads to sex?Just ask her to come over (note: this usually won't work for over-33's!). You can make dinner for her if you like, and a lot of men do that, but I never have. I'd prefer to just talk for a bit and get to fuckin'. That's why she's there, so why beat around the bush? (Pun intended.)
JEB 2017-11-03 02:25:12
His advice is the opposite, he advices to change the venue twice , so three venues/activities for a total of ~3h.PUAs who go for a first-date lay would tell you to do something like this. If you want a first date lay, you usually have to establish comfort through venue changing in a fashion like he describes. I usually don't want to go for a first date lay, since it decreases the odds of getting her in the roster - at least in my experience. If you have lots of time to go on dates and are a TOTH guy, go nuts.
Leon 2017-11-03 04:15:43
Good article, you should put a link to your other post about 85/15 rule, most new readers won't know about it and may find the concept hard to grasp.
If the 85/15 guy talks too much about his job, experience, responsibility, hopes/dreams, kids, or similar areas, he’s now seriously moving into provider territory, which is bad.Problem is, I personally find it's much easier to establish emotional connections and attract girls while talking/sharing about deep topics like hopes, dreams, achievements, ambition... Especially with the older, 27+ yo more established, more independent ones. Keep 85% of the talk just about fun and surface-level topics seem shallow and bit immature, even to me. Should I ignore that feeling? Are all ''deep talks'' banned in 85/15 model?
zaker 2017-11-03 05:18:45
Incorrect. Manson’s approach is monogamy. (He’s traditionally married.)In his Models the relationships a man could form with the women he meets through his approach to dating would, in my opinion, almost never result in FB-style relationships, because it is based on going for deep emotional connection with a woman fast. While he's traditionally married, his approach should work for MLTR/LTR, IMO It's exactly what Leon is talking about:
Problem is, I personally find it’s much easier to establish emotional connections and attract girls while talking/sharing about deep topics like hopes, dreams, achievements, ambition… Especially with the older, 27+ yo more established, more independent ones. Keep 85% of the talk just about fun and surface-level topics seem shallow and bit immature, even to me.Manson's approach is to go deep, outcome independent (he calls that vulnerability), to share and open up to a woman.
John 2017-11-03 06:14:12
although Manson’s approach is more into relationships leaning towards MLTR than FB, which kinda gives away my personality now.
Incorrect. Manson’s approach is monogamy. (He’s traditionally married.)I have to say I am bit careful about Manson's stuff. Most of it is great but IMO he still has some False Societal Programming left. And he also has this "I was a player and it was great fun but now i have grown up and am a pillar of society, one woman guy" thing going on. That just sends my BS detector through the roof and it's something a LOT of PUAs do later in life and then you realize they are Beta's at heart and all the caveman alpha BS was just an act to get girls into bed. But Manson is still right about a lot of stuff. I just think one has to be careful to not swallow his stuff hook, line and Sinker. TBH I personally like W. Anton - The Manual better. Although his "Charm" (i.e. giving her a compliment to show WHY you talked to her and not the other girl over there) directly contradicts BDs No-Compliments Rule. But maybe that is just because the Circumstances are different. After all BD starts from a Online -> First Date perspective while W.A. practices Streetgame (Day/Night doesn't really matter) mainly. (On a date you don't have to make your intentions clear, you are obviously not there because you don't know the time or are lost.) I can recommend it wholeheartedly (His Stuff is a great read and it just, like BDs, makes perfect sense to me) and would love to get BDs perspective on it.
captain 2017-11-03 07:01:53
I agree with the no dinner/ no event date rule except when a good amount of alcohol is going to be involved.
CrabRangoon 2017-11-03 08:33:24
I got a laugh when I saw the wall climbing pic right up front. I enjoy wall climbing and have a buddy who's big into it. He often takes dates to the climbing gym and guess what???? Nothing ever comes of these "dates" for him. I'm sending him this article right now.
zaker 2017-11-03 09:03:40
John, have you read Models though? The book gets a bad rep... From everyone who haven't read it, and good rep from people who did. I couldn't care less what Manson does now, his Models really resonate with me, because I do not like to be executing too many "techniques", doesn't feel like an interaction with a human being anymore then.
Leon 2017-11-03 10:05:17
Lol Models has bad rep? It's one of the best PUA books I have read. Mark Manson, at the point of writing Models (I haven't read his latest books), is like an ''extrovert BlackDragon'', with extraordinary social skills. He also teaches guys to be confident, outcome independent, funny and sexual aggressive like BD does. His only problem is he chose to be monogamous. Many of his ideas and mindsets are resonated with BD's. I find reading his materials satisfies my extrovert nature, something that this blog lacks.
Blackdragon 2017-11-03 10:15:04
Problem is, I personally find it’s much easier to establish emotional connections and attract girls while talking/sharing about deep topics like hopes, dreams, achievements, ambition… Especially with the older, 27+ yo more established, more independent ones. Keep 85% of the talk just about fun and surface-level topics seem shallow and bit immature, even to me. Should I ignore that feeling? Are all ”deep talks” banned in 85/15 model?Hopes and dreams aren't nearly as bad as surface level topics like family/friends/job/school/etc. So it's not a big deal. Yes, deep talks are allowed under the 85/15 model only if she is doing at least 80% of the talking, otherwise no.
I agree with the no dinner/ no event date rule except when a good amount of alcohol is going to be involved.I know a lot of guys do that, but that directly violates my low-cost model, since going out to dinner plus "a good amount of alcohol" is going to cost a hell of a lot more than $20 per first/second date. If you're going to spend $100+ (or close to it) per date, you might as well just do sugar daddy game, which is much more efficient at those spending levels.
Many of his ideas and mindsets are resonated with BD’s. I find reading his materials satisfies my extrovert nature, something that this blog lacks.Good description. I generally like Manson; your description of him is pretty accurate.
Tom 2017-11-03 11:22:14
How about getting her on karaoke, movie date where you can sexually escalate and pull back? It sets the tone for having sex later, does it? P/S: I'm not a alcohol guy, i seldom go to bar. Instead, i like to go for a night walk in park (does it look romantic), no money involved
Mike 2017-11-03 14:07:10
A buddy of mine organizes event dates often. I'm not sure if it has ever worked. But I've seen him end in the friendzone a couple of times. It's a shame because he's social and meets women quite easily - maybe because he is very non-threatening. Lately, he invited me to join one of his event dates with a girl he met recently. I wonder why he doesn't go just with her. Either he has been tagging her for a while and now feels comfortable to introduce her to friends or he runs extreme beta game (which will get him friendzoned again) - supposing he is interested in more than friendship. Could be she's butt ugly though.
FD 2017-11-03 14:18:45
BD, what do you think of event dates where *you* are the event? I mean, I'm an artist and sometimes go on stage (not my main job, it's a hobby/side job). I sometimes talk about that to women (especially from social circle), and sometimes they say "really? Sound cool, tell me the next time you do it". Do you think it's a good idea as the first part of a date (second part being a drink after the performance, in the same place where the event took place)? I mean, sure, it's an event, and one where you are not talking with her / kinoing, obviously, but you are the centre of attention (I'm talking about shows where I'm the only person on stage), and it is a very strong DHV. Should these event dates be avoided as well?
zaker 2017-11-03 14:24:46
Lol Models has bad rep? It’s one of the best PUA books I have read.Leon, You misread. I said that Models gets a bad rep among those who haven't read it. I've read it too and I think it's amazing. Changed my mindset. People who haven't read it judge it by that it's based on "vulnerability". I've also found Models really resonating with a lot of BD's stuff, except that I think BD runs more calculated game than Models talks about. Since BD hasn't read Models, how would you, who has read both Models and BD's content answer my question regarding event dates? 'Cause that's basically what Models advises to do, 3 venue change and he'd list all those event kinda stuff. Personality-wise I lean towards Manson rather than BD, I don't consider myself both intro and extravert. Need people badly and need space badly. How do you combine Models' and BD's teachings?
Mike Hunter 2017-11-03 14:39:09
Black Dragon: I agree with you about keeping costs and number of dates low. I usually try to just do a same night lay Paul Janka style. If the woman is hot I'll take her out to a Mexican Restaurant next to my house, order us a margarita ($7 for both of us), and then try to get her into the bedroom afterwards. If she's average I'll try to just con her into coming straight over to my place and banging there. I probably have a higher blowout rate. But when I go on blitz's I have more leads then I can put to use before they go stale anyway. So It's not really any skin off of my nose. My question is would a 'pool date' lower my chances of banging? I'm asking because I'm in the billiards club in my school. So I can play for free, and I often do. If a get a woman's number on campus Monday I could invite her to play pool with me later on in the week. It wouldn't cost me any money, and would actually be more time effective for me. Because I'd already be playing pool anyway. But I don't want to do that if it's counterproductive.
Anon 2017-11-03 15:21:51
If the 85/15 guy talks too much about his job, experience, responsibility, hopes/dreams, kids, or similar areas, he’s now seriously moving into provider territory, which is bad.Problem is, I personally find it’s much easier to establish emotional connections and attract girls while talking/sharing about deep topics like hopes, dreams, achievements, ambition… Especially with the older, 27+ yo more established, more independent ones.
Keep 85% of the talk just about fun and surface-level topics seem shallow and bit immature, even to me. Should I ignore that feeling? Are all ”deep talks” banned in 85/15 model?Why not defer that until after sex? You could compare your feeling to one a salesman could get when pitching a product that's truly of high quality. He plays the game with all the psychological tricks and in the end, if he's successful, he knows the customer will be delighted and this brings satisfaction to himself. Go for efficient time management, no deep diving (the Girls Chase term) online, hardly any talking about yourself on first date. Numbers (at least BD's) show failing to adhere to that is likely to scare away those who could otherwise play meaningful roles in your life, with whom you could discuss all the deep topics you want. Isn't that what you really want? Consider dating a silly game, and the rules of the game prohibit playing hearts on turn 1.
Gil Galad 2017-11-03 15:54:12
@Anon: how do you insert a quote inside a quote?
Anon 2017-11-03 16:13:46
When you copy and paste other comments into the edit box, formatting is preserved. So pasting inside an existing blockquote does the trick. It's rather inconvenient and unreliable though. Or post and press edit, then you get HTML mode and you can insert all the <blockquote>s you want. Or maybe edit HTML directly when composing through browser's debugging features.
Gil Galad 2017-11-03 16:51:40
Parade 2017-11-03 18:28:54
My question is would a ‘pool date’ lower my chances of banging?Just do it. When you have a blitz you already have too many chicks, so what does it matter if your blow out percent is a little bit higher because you invited them to play pool? Besides, as another person and I have said, event dates aren't the devil BD makes them out to be depending on you. I'm sure they're terrible for him, but I have a much better ratio and faster meet to lay time with event dates than I do with typical 'get a drink' dates. It's not one size fits all.
FiveSix 2017-11-03 18:33:19
One exception to hiking: You've already had sex with her at least once, it's during a very short travel trip, you know she likes sex in public places (and she likes hiking), and you fuck her in the middle of the hiking trip. This was risky on my part, I knew it was risky, but luck was on my side. Another exception is going salsa dancing, but it is sexual in nature and you don't need to talk much, so it may not qualify as an event date. @Mike Hunter I would NOT do a pool date since your seduction will constantly be interupted by playing the game. It's presents a friendly, fun vibe, with distractions of pool, other people nearby, etc. Taking her to a coffeeshop/cafe will save you time in the long rin.
joelsuf 2017-11-03 19:01:23
Not too sure about this one, at least in my experience. A good 3/4 of my first dates have been event dates (specifically going bowling or shooting pool). The cost of the date is at most $20 and in terms of time spent its an hour tops. Then on the second date, I'm at her place or she's at mine and we're having sex. Or we'll have sex that same night. I'm able to flirt a lot on event dates, and if you have the right frame, it is way more effective than a food date or a drink date. But yeah if you have a shitty frame, then its a big waste of time. Its food dates that end up sucking the most for me. Only 1/4 of any given date I go on is a food date and I always spend way too much money or time, and it gets pretty boring. Also, food dates can be easily converted to drink dates, even easier than event dates. "Just realized I gotta be somewhere in an hour, let's just get drinks." Sometimes my event dates will be followed up by a food or drink date, and then I'm pretty much guaranteed to have sex the next time I see the chick. This happened recently. Took a chick to go bowling, we got food after, then days later she was texting me pics of her boobs and inviting me over and stuff. However this is just my experience. If you can reduce the pressure involved, length, and cost of event dates, they are every bit as effective as drink dates. Also, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that as long as you are outcome independent, you can get away with any kind of date.
Blackdragon 2017-11-03 19:12:21
How about getting her on karaoke, movie date where you can sexually escalate and pull back? It sets the tone for having sex later, does it?Fuck no! Did you even read the article? Movie dates are the worst dates there are, and you don't need to sing karaoke to push/pull. A one on one conversation accomplishes that much better.
I’m not a alcohol guy, i seldom go to bar. Instead, i like to go for a night walk in park (does it look romantic), no money involved.Me too, and I do as well.
I mean, I’m an artist and sometimes go on stage (not my main job, it’s a hobby/side job). I sometimes talk about that to women (especially from social circle), and sometimes they say “really? Sound cool, tell me the next time you do it”. Do you think it’s a good idea as the first part of a date (second part being a drink after the performance, in the same place where the event took place)? I mean, sure, it’s an event, and one where you are not talking with her / kinoing, obviously, but you are the centre of attention (I’m talking about shows where I’m the only person on stage), and it is a very strong DHV. Should these event dates be avoided as well?You're describing an usual scenario where you can present social proof and DHV yourself. That would probably work, but it's not a repeatable model, in that you won't be able to do that for the vast majority of your first dates (unless you're literally on stage several times a week, every week).
If the woman is hot I’ll take her out to a Mexican Restaurant next to my house, order us a margarita ($7 for both of us), and then try to get her into the bedroom afterwards.That's perfect except for the trying to fuck her on the first date part, which will result in...
I probably have a higher blowout rate.Yup.
But when I go on blitz’s I have more leads then I can put to use before they go stale anyway. So It’s not really any skin off of my nose.Tolerating inefficiency in any endeavor is a huge waste of your life and time, and very unwise. (Unless you're an extremely extroverted guy who actually enjoys lots of platonic first dates; I do not; I like sex.)
My question is would a ‘pool date’ lower my chances of banging?Yes.
If a get a woman’s number on campus Monday I could invite her to play pool with me later on in the week. It wouldn’t cost me any money, and would actually be more time effective for me. Because I’d already be playing pool anyway.If you are 100% guaranteed be playing pool anyway for some other reason, regardless of if a woman was with you, then I agree it's a good use of you time. Otherwise it's bad idea.
One exception to hiking: You’ve already had sex with her at least once, it’s during a very short travel trip, you know she likes sex in public places (and she likes hiking), and you fuck her in the middle of the hiking trip. This was risky on my part, I knew it was risky, but luck was on my side.Guys, is it really that important to leap out and point out bizarre exceptions to the rule whenever I present a technique or statistic? I see it all over this blog and I will never understand this strange need. Is it just a need for attention? Weird.
Another exception is going salsa dancing, but it is sexual in nature and you don’t need to talk much, so it may not qualify as an event date.It is more or less an event date and I wouldn't do it. However, I agree it can be sexual in nature so I can't say definitively it won't work. You'd have to go on 20 salsa dancing first dates and then track how many of those women you fucked and how long it took you. (I have a strong feeling it would be a lower ratio and longer meet-to-sex times, but I could be wrong.)
A good 3/4 of my first dates have been event dates (specifically going bowling or shooting pool). The cost of the date is at most $20 and in terms of time spent its an hour tops. Then on the second date, I’m at her place or she’s at mine and we’re having sex. Or we’ll have sex that same night. I’m able to flirt a lot on event dates, and if you have the right frame, it is way more effective than a food date or a drink date. But yeah if you have a shitty frame, then its a big waste of time.I have a strong feeling you're getting laid in spite of the event dates because of other things you're doing, not because of the bowling or pool. I can prove it too you; go on 20 first dates that are quick bar/coffee shop dates like I talk about and track your results very carefully. I promise you that with the skill you already have, you'll have sex with more of the women and it will take less time. And again, if you're of those guys who just likes hanging out with women socially/platonicly and don't mind lower success rates and/or longer meet-to-sex times, then feel free to ignore my advice and do whatever you want.
John 2017-11-03 19:14:29
Yes i have read Models multiple times and also other stuff like The subtle art of not giving a f**k. As i said i think he is spot on 80-90% of the time but he is held back (IMO) by his remaining societal programming and, ironically actually still giving too many f**ks. Again i urge you to read W. Anton - The Manual, compare them (they are not that different) and build your own opinion. "Vulnaribility" isn't the issue. I think thats a cornerstone of being "alpha". BD calls the same thing "Outcome Independence" and W. Anton also places much importance on basically the same concept.
Toronto Alpha 2017-11-03 21:05:21
“Vulnaribility” isn’t the issue. I think thats a cornerstone of being “alpha”. BD calls the same thing “Outcome Independence” and W. Anton also places much importance on basically the same concept.Actually, it is(the issue). And HELL NO!!! That two concept are NOT mutually exclusive. One is an act of self-voluntarily expression of emotional state (feelz), and the other one is form of mental state which having 100% freedom in attitude towards any given particular situation. P.S. I've read most of Manson and BD stuff since 2010-2011, so I know the background of both history. P.P.S. "Vulnerability" concept which Manson mainly preach is rooted back from his Feminist -single mother- upbringing. In result it's become heavily clouded his view in his early interaction with woman. P.P.P.S. Don't believe me? Read again "Models" with new Red-Pill lense/perspective.
Toronto Alpha 2017-11-03 21:36:52
Can you imagine somewhere in the near future you'll see an article such like this published here, in this the one and only particular blog?! https://markmanson.net/whats-the-problem-with-men
C Lo 2017-11-03 21:41:38
Something I've done in the past as a second date is the picnic lunch/dinner if the weather is decent. I bought a wicker picnic basket, a blanket, use disposable plates and cups (cost me $80 one time after I got divorced), and then hit up this local Italian deli for a bottle of go toSpanish Cava (champagne is 10 or 15x for equivalent quality) and a bunch of deli foods in the little containers. Pre scout a couple of spots (no ants and nothing weird). Im usually out about $20, I know the food is gonna be fantastic, you get her 100% in your frame, tons of keno, has a definitive end (I tend to have dates to too long) and you can extend back to her place if you want too. I had no idea what I was doing when I used this and I got laid every time but once (and that was my fault, it would have worked there too). on Manson: he is a huge betaized pussy, and his ex is a stark raving mad nutcase: http://erikaawakening.com/its-complicated-an-open-letter-to-my-ex-mark-manson/ so I tossed him out and DIDNT READ HIM because I figured it was crap. Anyway, thanks for the tip. Maybe I'll pick it up sometime.
joelsuf 2017-11-04 06:51:21
I have a strong feeling you’re getting laid in spite ofthe event dates because of other things you’re doing, notbecause ofthe bowling or pool.Makes sense. I have a strong frame when I go on event dates. There's lots of physicality and the vibe is 100% fun and the chick usually says "this doesn't even feel like a date, I already feel like we've been together for awhile!" So perhaps its just my ability to relate really well with others.
I can prove it too you; go on 20 first dates that are quick bar/coffee shop dates like I talk about and track your results very carefully. I promise you that with the skill you already have, you’ll have sex with more of the womenandit will take less time.I've never took the time to track my results, but this is probably accurate. 20 event dates vs 20 drink dates and see which gets to sex faster? I think this is something everyone should do. I only track my approaches etc, and that was before I really got everything down.
if you’re of those guys who just likes hanging out with women socially/platonicly and don’t mind lower success rates and/or longer meet-to-sex times, then feel free to ignore my advice and do whatever you want.I'm like that with certain chicks: Chicks in relationships or chicks who are too ugly for me to want to have sex with. As long as you aren't a slave to them, its alright to have chick buddies. You don't have to aim to have sex with every chick you come across, despite what Alpha 1s (who, paradoxically, catch feelings just as bad as any beta) would have you believe.
AlphaOmega 2017-11-04 13:45:50
Ironically despite I know this isnt a good idea ive been lately thinking to start doing event dates. The reason is that recently I started to be able to get a lot more dates than ever before and the 1h chat over a drink is starting to become really boring for me. Any suggestions on how to make it different/interesting without making it an event date?
Duke 2017-11-04 16:28:52
As always, the more a woman makes you wait, the lower your odds become of ever having sex with her. This is because the more time you take with her between the moment you first meet her and when you actually have sex (if you have sex, that is), the higher the odds of her finding something about you she doesn’t like, and of you doing or saying something she doesn’t like, and of another man striking her fancy before you close the deal.If this is true, than how come these dominant women that demand dinner dates end up getting into relationships with another beta even if they wasted the previous guy's time? What the well is the difference between guys she uses for dinner/event dates and the guy she ends up with. I guess maybe that one didn't disclose any information that turned her off and the other one did? Just wondering what goes through women's heads when one beta is good enough while the other isn't.
W. AntonDude doesn't get enough credit. His stuff is good as a primer for BD's materials. BD doesn't really explain the why you should be getting laid; he expects you to already know. Anton's The Manual makes for an excellent male and female psychology, sociology, and biology book all rolled into one. I learned more about those subjects than any text book in college. He explains why males engage in needy pathetic behavior because they want to earn women's affection. And why as a man you are entitled to have sex with attractive women; they are essentially your birth right. Internalizing that belief lays the groundwork for everything else, which just comes naturally after. That article by Mark Manson was cringeworthy. You would think the guy hates men: "Men are so emotionally incompetent without women, getting married is literally the healthiest thing a man can do in his life. One research summary of emotional suppression went as far to say: “emotional restrictiveness is the leading cause to why men die earlier [than women.]”"
Anon 2017-11-04 16:49:24
how come these dominant women that demand dinner dates end up getting into relationshipsBecause provider hunt is complete? And it's not like any reasonable frequency of sex ensues.
That article by Mark Manson was cringeworthy.He's asking all the right questions, and he's giving... well, he's not giving any answers, just rambling. Much like stereotypical gossiping women do about men, without any insight into underlying psychology. Not that MM has no such insight, he has at least some, but instead he chose to regurgitate some SP that proves none of the points (because SP rarely does, and also because he hasn't actually made any points). He should become a politician : )
Blackdragon 2017-11-04 18:46:10
Ironically despite I know this isnt a good idea ive been lately thinking to start doing event dates. The reason is that recently I started to be able to get a lot more dates than ever before and the 1h chat over a drink is starting to become really boring for me. Any suggestions on how to make it different/interesting without making it an event date?No, but you're operating under a completely different thought process than I do. The process for me is not supposed to be fun, different, or interesting; it's supposed to be as fast and effective as possible. Nothing else matters. My fun / different / interesting time is when I have sex with her on the second date within 3 hours. I'm focused on results, not process. Always have. But that's me.
If this is true, than how come these dominant women that demand dinner dates end up getting into relationships with another beta even if they wasted the previous guy’s time?Because the other dinner date beta is better looking, more wealthy, or more compliant than you (usually more compliant).
That article by Mark Manson was cringeworthy. You would think the guy hates men:and
He’s asking all the right questions, and he’s giving… well, he’s not giving any answers, just rambling.As someone said above, Mark Manson's writing appeals to extroverts and more emotional personality types. If you're a more introverted, technical, objective, or get-to-the-point kind of guy, you're not going to like his stuff. I like the guy (in general, SP and monogamy notwithstanding) though his writing isn't for me, but he is good at writing to a very particular type of man (and woman, since unlike me he writes to them as well).
AlphaOmega 2017-11-05 13:12:51
I’m focused on results, not process. Always have. But that’s me.Yeah I get that and thats fine except im not that good with people (yet) and if I am bored by "another woman who is the same as the rest"* I sometimes let it show and it hurts my results. *seriously, sometimes they are so same to the point they respond with same sentences, I am starting to think most of them are robots. Maybe I will try to either have the firs dates even shorter, or do this quick drink followed by venue change thing.
Mike Hunter 2017-11-05 14:04:36
Black Dragon: If you are 100% guaranteed be playing pool anyway for some other reason, regardless of if a woman was with you, then I agree it’s a good use of you time. Otherwise it’s bad idea.So just to summarize: Inviting a woman to play pool with me, if I'm playing pool anyway for a first date; then trying to bang her on the second date; would increase my chances of getting the bang. Relative to just trying to con them into coming up to my apartment and then escalating until sex or a blowout on the 1st date. But doing a 1-2 combo of first coffee date; then sex on the second date will optimize my chances the most. I agree with you about spending extra time or money. I'm very sensitive regarding both of those things when trying to get the panties. I play a decent amount of billiards on my own, with friends, or at my billiards class. So I figured I might as well try to feed two birds with one seed.
You’d have to go on 20 salsa dancing first dates and then track how many of those women you fucked and how long it took you. (I have a strong feeling it would be a lower ratio and longer meet-to-sex times, but I could be wrong.)Did you post the spreadsheet you use to track your results? I'm pretty sure you did but I can't find it. I'm sure it would be useful to FiveSix for tracking his results and useful to others.
Blackdragon 2017-11-05 15:40:55
So just to summarize: Inviting a woman to play pool with me, if I’m playing pool anyway for a first date; then trying to bang her on the second date; would increase my chances of getting the bang.Incorrect. Taking women out to play pool for the first date will reduce your odds of success. However, if you're going to play pool anyway, no matter what, and you have a lot of first dates on your calendar, and want to combine the two to exercise good time management, I think that's fine.
Relative to just trying to con them into coming up to my apartment and then escalating until sex or a blowout on the 1st date. But doing a 1-2 combo of first coffee date; then sex on the second date will optimize my chances the most.Correct. The two quick date model usually gets men laid faster than constantly trying to have sex with women on the first date/meet. And please, for the love of god, stop saying you're trying to "con" women into having sex with you or go back to your place. Creepy, dude. That's not how it works.
Did you post the spreadsheet you use to track your results?Only my online dating one, not any of the others. It's here.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-11-05 16:41:43
Relative to just trying to con themYou seem to be stuck in the traditional conservative mindset which dictates that men are heterosexuals and women are asexuals. Therefore, women must be "conned" into sex because they have no motivation to "give" it away for free. Gold diggers - who are actual asexuals, for the most part - exploit this conservative mindset to their agenda, and so do girls who might be horny but think they can get something more out of a beta male if they pretend that they're being generous in bed. I suggest you avoid this mindset because it is the mindset of a beta provider or a conservative chivalrist. If you're dealing with actual gold diggers (asexuals) you need to get rid of them from your life ASAP. Otherwise, you're falling for the conservative Disney trap, which is, at its core, matriarchal. Learn this red pill truth and women will have zero power or leverage over you - Women are heterosexuals also. Therefore, they don't need to be conned.
Marty 2017-11-06 01:47:01
Guys, is it really that important to leap out and point out bizarre exceptions to the rule whenever I present a technique or statistic? I see it all over this blog and I will never understand this strange need. Is it just a need for attention?This is an interesting thing on this blog that I have noticed as well. But I think some of it comes from the fact your approaches are very practical and efficient. It's your personality and it works extremely well. However, some guys have personal preferences they just like doing that are just different. But they try and justify them even if they don't necessarily work that well or as efficiently. There is really no need for this. Sometimes you can just do what you like regardless even if you know its not as efficient or doesn't work as well but you can work with it just because you enjoy it. Everyone is a bit different. No need to justify things or try and make them the "right way" just because you like them. I have quite a few things I like to do like go out to clubs and party and drink. I've been doing it since I was 15 and at almost 50 I still love doing it. Not very efficient or practical in a lot of ways. But I enjoy it and I just adjust a lot of the advice I get on here around it so that it works. But I also have to accept that its not going to work as well but I'll enjoy it more. Less sex, more cost, potentially more drama, but more fun for me etc.
POB 2017-11-06 04:06:25
His advice is the opposite, he advices to change the venue twice , so three venues/activities for a total of ~3h.If you're talking about online first dates, it works (I use it all the time). Does not matter her age - I just did it with a 41 yo cougar from Tinder this past Thursday. It goes more or less like this: meet at a park, plaza, subway station or even her place > coffee or fast drink at the local mall > walk in the mall garden/close park > back to my/her place > sex BTW this is a common day-game tactic adapted to online.
Leon 2017-11-06 04:27:59
Since BD hasn’t read Models, how would you, who has read both Models and BD’s content answer my question regarding event dates? ‘Cause that’s basically what Models advises to do, 3 venue change and he’d list all those event kinda stuff. Personality-wise I lean towards Manson rather than BD, I don’t consider myself both intro and extravert. Need people badly and need space badly. How do you combine Models’ and BD’s teachings?I tried both actually. Although I like the deep connecting technique, I prefer BD's 2-dates-with-drinks more than Manson's 3-hours-many-venue-change process. As a Pleasure of Sex guy, I find BD system more time efficiency, thus much easier to maintain an outcome independent frame (at worst, only 1 hour lost).
Kei Faithom 2017-11-06 04:49:46
No Monday post(as usual), BD?!!
POB 2017-11-06 04:52:19
I find BD system more time efficiencyBD's system is more time efficient, sure, but the first date lay works in some situations - specially when you're not sure when a date two might happen, like: - if you were trying to set her up and took a long time to get to the first date - if she lives too far away - if her life is too busy/disorganized - if you live in a huge metropolis with chaotic public transportation (like me) and chicks don't have cars
thus much easier to maintain an outcome independent frameThis is not about the model you use...this is about how you present yourself since the first contact. But yes, usually shorter first time together means you'll look more carefree and chill (thus increasing attraction).
Jack Outside the Box 2017-11-06 04:58:26
No Monday post(as usual), BD?!!Are you educated at all about the concept of "time zones?" It's 4 in the morning.
CasualDayGame 2017-11-06 06:03:04
ok if event dates are out of the cards and dinner dates should be pushed to date 4 the latest, what else is there? Grabbing coffee or a beer seems limited. I'm not a fan of drinking beer. And coffee gives off the wrong vibe. I'm 25 and attract 19-23 year olds lately.
Jack Outside the Box 2017-11-06 07:55:36
And coffee gives off the wrong vibe.Explain.
Blackdragon 2017-11-06 11:18:40
ok if event dates are out of the cards and dinner dates should be pushed to date 4 the latest, what else is there?Since you're asking such a basic question, I strongly suggest you read go through the archive of this blog and read up on my system. Or better, get my main dating manual.
Grabbing coffee or a beer seems limited.Irrelevant. It's effective.
I’m not a fan of drinking beer.I don't drink alcohol at all, and I still meet women at bars all the time, and get laid doing it.
And coffee gives off the wrong vibe.I have had sex with a huge number of women within 3-4 hours of face time by meeting at coffee shops. Again, do some more reading.
CasualDayGame 2017-11-06 12:02:59
I've read your blog for almost 2 years now. While I agree with your whole system as a young man these things have no worked so well for me as they have for you. Girls do not respond well to the pushiness. Girls do not want OLTRs. I meet many young women who just turned 20 with one or more kids who are hustling to find a man to take care of them and "treat them right".
CasualDayGame 2017-11-06 12:06:54
I'm stating simply that the sexual marketplace is changing rapidly and not for the best. I want an OLTR but even the girls I have ONS with do not. If they become plates, they hint at monogomy. If I do what your blog says they run off. Other forums have claimed that by doing what you've told me to do (your OLTR "speech") I've been 'autistic' by being overt with my intentions. Again not disagreeing with you personally just that these things are not working for me and I feel it's the sign of the times. So I'm looking for new ideas.
Gil Galad 2017-11-06 12:20:15
@CasualDayGame: there's a lot of apparent incoherence in your comments. So maybe you can clarify: -Are you trying to build an OLTR at 25? (bad idea) -Are you trying to build an OLTR with 20-year-olds? (bad idea) -Are you trying to build an OLTR with girls you had a ONS with (and the corresponding EFA)? (bad idea) -Are you dating young chicks who have kids without first exhausting the other possibilities? (bad idea) -Have you been doing the OLTR talk correctly? (ie months after she has already agreed to nonmonogamy) Which lead to another question: have you been doing the nonmonogamy talk itself correctly (ie after multiple months of dating with the right EFA and deflecting her questions and her pushing for monogamy till you choose your own moment)? You can't say the system hasn't worked for if you haven't been applying it, and it sounds like you haven't. Also what "pushiness" are you talking about? Where is "pushiness" ever advised here?
Blackdragon 2017-11-06 12:39:09
CasualDayGame, as Gil said, nothing you're saying makes any sense to me, as I do not recommend anything you're taking about. I have a strong feeling you're not doing what I recommend and/or you're misinterpreting my advice, which is why it's not working.
Blackdragon 2017-11-06 12:40:36
Also, don't ask about relationship advice on pickup forums. Read this.
CasualDayGame 2017-11-06 14:14:46
nothing you’re saying makes any sense to meThat's on me. I tried to get right to the point. I hate long talks on websites.
BD: Also, don’t ask about relationship advice on pickup forums. Read this.I'm from The Red Pill and found you on my own. There's a lot of inconsistencies with both strategies. I have up my notch count from 2 to 17 in 2 years so I know the Red pill works. But then I came across your blog and everything resonated with me. I love women and I just like having sex with them. Don't want to be monogamous in these times. It makes sense there needs to be sex at the beginning of the relationship (FWB or Plate). While I can get a plate even after 6 months or more of seeing them they strictly want me to be monogamous. When I assert myself with the OLTR model you've provided (which I really want!) they dissapear and pop up in a serious monogamous relationship. I will read this link. I feel that I'm doing exactly what you expect I'm doing: mixing PUA advice with your dating model advice and well It's not going good!
Are you trying to build an OLTR at 25? (bad idea)Yes. I can like a girl a lot and we both be having sex with other people. I have a life. She has one.
-Are you trying to build an OLTR with 20-year-olds? (bad idea)I've never considered this being a bad idea. Saw it as a mature solution to hypergamy and slut culture.
-Are you trying to build an OLTR with girls you had a ONS with (and the corresponding EFA)? (bad idea)haha no way. What I meant to convey is that sex with these women don't ever turn into anything lasting. I like strange new pussy like any other man but I like it even better when there is "pussy on tap". Before I got into "game" I had an LTR for a year. We had sex over 350 times. We kept track. While my notch count (PIV with new women) was only 3 that year I had the most sex and felt the best. I'm finding that ONS and day game, while rewarding, is a grueling process.
-Are you dating young chicks who have kids without first exhausting the other possibilities? (bad idea)Not dating at all. I'm meeting them in approaches. Or finding out later. They are not down for strictly an adult sexual relationship. I understand they have a kid with no man in the picture and now their reputation is in the spot light.
-have you been doing the nonmonogamy talk itself correctlyAs far as I know. It could be that I'm too young and the women are too young. I'm just tired of the hookup process with no lasting returns. I do not want an LTR ever again. I'd rather remain honest with myself and have open LTRs. I am completely fine 'charading' a relationship while knowing there's no labels. I feel like that is a highly efficient and beneficial arrangement. This is why an OLTR appeals to me.
Duke 2017-11-06 15:03:52
I am completely fine ‘charading’ a relationship while knowing there’s no labels. I feel like that is a highly efficient and beneficial arrangement. This is why an OLTR appeals to me.No wonder you're lost. You're completely contradicting yourself. You say that you are fine with mltr in the first two sentences, but then say that you want an OLTR. I don't know how old you are, but if I were you I would focus on stacking cash, and forget about having any type of serious relationship for the time being. Doesn't seem like you been reading BD for two years. I would get to reading that archive before asking any more questions.
Gil Galad 2017-11-06 15:05:49
-Are you trying to build an OLTR with 20-year-olds? (bad idea)I’ve never considered this being a bad idea. Saw it as a mature solution to hypergamy and slut culture.
Duke 2017-11-06 15:18:48
lol @ Gil learning how to quote within a quote.
Gil Galad 2017-11-06 16:17:21
@Duke: I actually just copypasted the whole thing and it kept the format all on its own. Felt pretty dumb in retrospect for ever asking how it was done xD
2017HappyLifestyle 2017-11-06 17:03:23
The "quick Instant Date upon first meeting," or the "first quick meet-up tonight date" is usually going to be in a public place (at least to begin with), and basically only involve (coffee or drinks or water or sitting side by side somewhere or a brief walk through a park/venue). While going to a place for just a quick coffee/drink/water is fine (and much better than an event date, and hugely better than a dinner date); I still would not make it look like the standard beta "buying her a drink routine," so if we went for a coffee/drink/water at a place it would be purchased and then go sit down there on a couch or on a park bench (sitting side by side) or walking (coffee/water) toward your place or through a park. Most often I would rather meet her in public, then we go to a store for the (coffee/drinks/water), then we have to go drop it off and have it at my place (and to show her the other things that we have been talking about on the way there). Being Outcome Independent and for screening for her availability/interest if she does not want to go to my place (especially for the "second date"), then simply move on to the next woman who is interested. So, while "coffee/drinks/maybe ice cream/water" are fine, I still would usually rather have those drinks at my place or her place (meet in public near my place, walk to a store to get the drinks, then go to my place to have the drinks and to show her some things I was talking about). Paul J. was one of the few more intelligent Pick-Up guys, although it sounds like he got married though. He knew that the initial approach should be less than five minutes (similar to how most YT videos are only a few minutes because most people have an attention span of about 3 minutes, and most commercials have about 30 seconds to get someones attention). He went for cell-phone numbers, then he would text to set-up meeting at a lounge for drinks nearby his apartment, and he knew it was better to not eat food on a "date" before getting intimate. Personally, I rarely ask for phone numbers, as I go for either an Instant Date right now or set-up the meet-up for tonight. I had never heard of Wanton until a few years ago when I bought the book and while the tone was better than most PUA types, the main points were the usual be confident and be direct, and that's fine but I would not have bought it knowing that was the only actionable advice. It was more inner game confidence and I knew all that. I think he thought being direct was giving a compliment like the usual "You're cute so I just wanted to meet you, let's go out for a drink sometime." That might be fine for many beta guys, but personally I never tell a girl "I think you're cute" (it sounds beta, I don't like saying it, I don't think that's "direct," and I never compliment a girls looks). Personally, I think being direct is in the non-verbal intent, the mutual touching, and in the Invite (instant date now or meet-up tonight, then to go to my place to show her the interesting things we were talking about, or the second date at my place). What I drink myself on "dates" depends on the time of day. In the morning or afternoon I drink coffee. Later at night I drink mostly water. After my Liver (AST/ALT) was high I cut back on drinking very often. I keep a few bottles of wine and beer for the women who want a sip and for a few brief drinking games once and a while. Any drinks (in public or private) or mints is not the main point and would only be for a few minutes anyway.
Blackdragon 2017-11-06 20:45:12
While I can get a plate even after 6 months or more of seeing them they strictly want me to be monogamous. When I assert myself with the OLTR model you’ve provided (which I really want!) they dissapear and pop up in a serious monogamous relationship.You are doing something very wrong. My success rate for the The Talk is way above 80%, and yours should be at least close to that range. My guess is you're not following all the relationship rules pre-Talk (making her cum every time, only see her once a week max, don't act like a boyfriend, keep contact to a minimum, soft next whenever you have drama, no relationship talks, etc). I still honestly think you haven't been internalizing my stuff.
CasualDayGame 2017-11-06 21:17:27
You are doing something very wrong. My success rate for the The Talk is way above 80%, and yours should be at least close to that range.If I was doing it right I wouldn't be here frustrated and asking for your wisdom on the subject matter. Does your dating models work for young men like myself at 25? I'm wondering If I'm expecting too much for my current age and SMV.
if I were you I would focus on stacking cash, and forget about having any type of serious relationship for the time being@Duke I started a business and am financially independent. While it's not enough to 'flash' at the moment I have bought myself some nice things. Women are not my priority but sex is definitely up there. I'm here because something is wrong and while I was getting results for some time now I've hit a wall so to speak.
Blackdragon 2017-11-06 22:02:00
Does your dating models work for young men like myself at 25?Of course. There are many men in their early to mid-20's who are using my relationship systems just fine. You're. Doing. Something. Wrong. But if you don't want to hear that and want to think it's something else, that's fine with me.
CasualDayGame 2017-11-07 04:53:12
You’re. Doing. Something. Wrong. But if you don’t want to hear that and want to think it’s something else, that’s fine with me.I've already agreed with you something is wrong. It very well could be me as I've said in another post I read a lot of manosphere material I'm mixing the two is not a good idea. Your post with PUA is not relationship advice is a good preface to that. You seem to think I'm here to whine while I've made a lot of effort to state my case and seek solutions. So much for people on the internet.
Blackdragon 2017-11-07 17:54:11
I’ve already agreed with you something is wrong.Then what is your specific question? (Other than asking about your age.)
roger 2017-11-07 20:51:01
Event dates are my second or third date choice. It's a great way to have a relaxing conversation, get physical, and even that first kiss in. Though I'm up for having it on a first date also. I like to get a kiss in on the second date then end it. That way they go home and think about me, and want more. Though I will have sex on a second date sometimes, third is generally where I go for it.
John 2017-11-10 17:58:26
@CasualDayGame Honestly, just buy his book. Its less than 10$. I don't think there is a specific question he can answer for you because you are so confused (or at least confusing all kinds of systems with each other). As Gil already said: You are not making any sense. And with every post where you try to explain it, it gets worse. Just read the Book where it is actually explained from A to Z. And then you can ask follow-up questions that actually make sense.
guy 2017-11-11 19:29:06
totally agree with this, all of these type of dates are a huge investment, give you too much time to make some small error that could harm your chances before you are already 'in' and lets face it 'events' rarely live up to the hype which could sour things even more