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Overdoing Sex Talk or Kino on Dates
-By Caleb Jones
The problem is that some guys overdo this stuff in ways that actually scare women, or turn them off, or raise their ASD. They are important techniques that you should use, but at the same time, you don’t want to take them too far.
They key here is to pay close attention to how a woman is acting on a first or second date, and adjust your approach accordingly.
If you start talking about sex, and you see her immediately try to change the subject while her body language tightens, then for fuck’s sake, stop talking about sex and talk about something else. Don’t keep trying to talk about sex just because I said it’s a good idea. That will just spike her ASD and you’ll probably never see her again.
If you start really touching her a lot (putting your arm around her, or rubbing her arms and shoulders for a long time, etc) and you feel her eyes dart around the room and her shoulders rise, that means she doesn’t like it and you need to stop. Again, don’t keep trying to touch her just because my content (or some other guy's content) says that kino is a good idea.
You may not know how to identify the signals women give when they don’t like these things. That’s understandable. Women have been trained their entire lives by Societal Programming to be nice and polite on first dates and to go out of their way to not say anything that might hurt your feelings. Instead, they’ll play nice on the date and then ghost your ass as soon as you text them later.
Therefore, if you sex talk or kino and she hates it, it’s very unlikely she’s going to verbally indicate to you in clear man-language that she doesn’t like it and that she’d like you to stop (unless she’s an extreme Dominant).
This means it’s your job to watch her entire body language and indirect verbal cues during the entire date and adjust accordingly. If you’ve already been on bazillions of first dates like I have, you already know how to do this without trying because of the amount of practice you’ve had. But if you’re at the beginner or intermediate level, here are a few things you need to watch out for. Any of the below items means that your kino, sex talk, or something else is turning her off or upsetting her and you need to STOP what you’re doing and do something else:
- Body tensing, usually indicated by her shoulders suddenly rising.
- Sudden change in eye size, like a sudden widening of the eyes or sudden narrowing/squinting of the eyes.
- Nervously looking around the room.
- Nervous laugh (which is different than a genuine laugh; it’s hard to describe the difference but just pay close attention to her when she laughs; genuine laughing is good, nervous laughing is very bad).
- Sharply changing the subject, especially if she does it more than once.
- Sudden change in overall demeanor. For example, she was leaning forward and smiling and then shifts to a more straightened posture with her arms or hands folded.
- Questions like, “Are you having fun?” or “Are you okay?” or “Are you enjoying yourself?” Any question like that coming from a woman on a date is very bad.
- A constant smile that never leaves her face. Usually an indication of nervousness.
- An unwillingness to discuss any topics other than the very boring, safe ones (like work, family, etc). This is common with women over age 33.
- Speaking in a clear monotone that never changes. (Warning: a few women just talk like that and it may be perfectly fine in those cases.)
- Pretty much any verbal or body language cue that is indicative of shock or surprise. This is not an emotion you want her to feel on a first or second date. You want her happy and relaxed, not pumped up, and not shocked.
- Touching a woman’s hands or shoulders on a first date is great, but putting your arm around her as you both walk down the street is too much.
- Sex talk with a 25 year-old is great, but if you get really sexually explicit with your verbiage with a woman who is 42, in many cases, her already high ASD is just going to spike even higher, and you’re probably not going to see her again.
- If a woman is a provider hunter of any age, sometimes you'll need to dramatically dial back both the sex talk and kino. She’s looking for a submissive and appropriate beta boyfriend or husband, not sex or fun, so sex talk/kino is probably going to just upset her.
The takeaway here is to always be aware of the movements and words of the woman sitting across from you on a first and second date; don’t robotically follow a system without paying attention to her.
And to be clear, I’m only talking about the dating phase here, which is before you’ve had sex with her twice. After you’ve had sex with her twice, you’re in relationship management at that point, and none of the above applies. (You can kino and sex talk all you want and she won’t care.)
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Tom 2018-05-07 05:28:22
Hi BD, What are the alpha PDAs other than putting arm around her while walking down the street, basically always be close to her? I can only think of grabbing/lightly spank her ass when no people see. Your advice leave the kiss after u both at isolation makes her less ASD plus showing you're not beta by 'mate guarding' her in public.
Juju's Bike 2018-05-07 06:32:09
Sometimes it's not bad if the girl is nervous at the date, especially if you are projecting a great frame. If they are very invested they get kind of jumpy and do all kinds of goofy nervous stuff that beta males usually do on dates. That's a good thing. Inverting the roles and getting the girl uncomfortable because she thinks she needs to prove herself to you
FD 2018-05-07 07:09:30
Interesting article, I would have thought that kino was a must during a date (my results vastly improved when I started doing it). "She’s looking for a submissive and appropriate beta boyfriend or husband, not sex or fun, so sex talk/kino is probably going to just upset her." : which is a good thing, isn't it ? When would one want to date such a woman ? (genuine question)
paternity tester 2018-05-07 07:11:32
dafuq is PDA
joelsuf 2018-05-07 07:18:11
I kinda disagree with this, but for 33+s who aren't horny af then yeah you gotta know when to stop. But for horny 33+s, chicks 25-33, and especially chicks under 25? Keep going and make the ho say no. Don't be forceful or rapey or anything, but for chicks under 33 (who are not really horny), they'll string you along like crazy if you don't burn it to the ground. If there is chemistry, the kino usually makes chicks really REALLY horny. Even the horny 33+s usually want there to be a buildup to sex. Fooled around with one a couple nights ago, but when I tried to go D in V she was like "not yet." But yet we fooled around like crazy. Next time I see her, the sex is gonna be mind-blowing haha
Callahan 2018-05-07 07:45:19
I wish you had written this article a couple of years ago, when I used to persist with the "sex talk-kino on a first date" rule with women that were unexpectedly reluctant to it. I have burned tens of women, in this way. Anyhow, I still can see no way of you getting laid in the second date under 3 hours, if she does not comply even to kino in the first one. In fact, it looks more likely to me than not that she is not interested.
Neil 2018-05-07 08:56:54
Jeez, did anyone actually read BD’s article?!! He doesn’t say don’t kino at all, just watch & read the girls body language/signals if you do start to lightly touch her, to make sure it’s not too much. It’s common sense; a women will be attracted to a guy who can be sexual in a subtle way both by touch and innuendo. Shes not going to want a date a guy who blabs about sex and drapes his arm round her.
Pancake Mouse 2018-05-07 10:40:09
I'm interested to hear examples of how guys transition into sex talk. Blackdragon suggests talking about her past relationships and then insinuating that her ex was bad in bed, but I don't like that for a couple of reasons, one being that sometimes they flip it on me and I've never been in a relationship, and the second being that girls don't really like to talk about their exes, contrary to Blackdragon's experience. I typically roll with asking girls if they've ever dated girls, or just guys, then talking about how the sex experience differs between a girl and a guy. One sticking point on dates is when the girl goes non-compliant after bringing up sex. I typically don't transition out of it smoothly, I clam up for a second and don't know what to talk about next. I feel like they sense this.
CTV 2018-05-07 11:06:57
Yea I've Fucked this one up Countless times with Countless Hot Chicks. Seriously trying to work on this one. Honestly I've noticed with chicks who I immediately as an FB ONLY category I will sometimes "Go For Broke" on the 1st date sometimes and fuck it up because I'm TOO Outcome Independent, but that overdo it. The "Go For Broke" mentality is good for your OI frame if your a TH guy (which I am) on the prowl on FRI/SAT nights though. It'll give a a ton of confidence, but has to be toned down a notch or two once you're on a date/trying to lock in a hook up. I've been frustrated too many times because of this problem BD! LOL Thank you for God Damn saying this today. #LESSON #LEARNED
John 2018-05-07 12:43:05
I usually wear lighter clothing or skip the coat and allow myself to shiver a little as I start touching. Did it by accident one time and the girl ate it up so much I started intentionally doing it. I give a strong alpha vibe so I guess that kind of balances it out a little. Confuses the shit out of them.. Either way they fucking love it.
Antekirtt 2018-05-07 12:58:07
I typically don’t transition out of it smoothly, I clam up for a second and don’t know what to talk about next.I have this problem. Switching topics is not my strength.
Neil 2018-05-07 13:44:10
I think guys make too much of sex talk. All you need to do on the first couple of dates is to tease and flirt enough so she knows your a sexual guy. Your not meant to spend the evening discussing your joint sexual histories from the age of 16!! As for transitioning, just change subjects and go back to it later on. Women are fascinated by guys who can joke, flirt, debate, get passionate, tease at will. It’s called fractionation and it’s probsnly the best advice I ever got and had helped me lay lots of women. If you do want to get back on the sexual side just change the subject with what I call the “ex thread”. So if your talking about sports or cooking or travel or anything just throw in the line of “yeah, my ex and I did that/went there..” You then say how that was when you both had an amazing time at the hotel/in the toilets later on and then just smirk to yourself. The girl then has the opportunity to comment on why you had sex or go back to the original thread. If it’s the former then you know she’s interested in sex but if she just ignores it then she’s probably a ‘vanilla, sex with the lights out’- type and not worth the effort, in my opinion.
Anon 2018-05-07 15:21:52
I’m interested to hear examples of how guys transition into sex talk.For me it was a matter of "just do it", as I wrote in another comment: https://blackdragonblog.com/2018/04/19/dont-find-attractive/#comment-371392 As for concrete examples, after getting an idea of what her typical day in the life is you can say something like "I guess you don't do [exaggerated job description that makes it sound even more boring than it likely is] all year round, you must do something exciting in your spare time!" (1. a statement rather than a question; 2. moves the subject towards something exciting; 3. makes her validate herself). Whatever activities she names are likely to have been enjoyed with an ex and to have presented opportunities to be naughty. For example, after she reminisces of warm nights at the seaside it's natural to ask whether she ever tried sex on the beach. She's likely to volunteer just a small bit of information to gauge your reaction, you can nonchalantly comment on which ways of doing it are the least likely to get sand where it doesn't belong, establishing a nonjudgmental attitude. Or "With all those things in your life you just named, you must hardly get any sleep!" --- whatever she says, joke about hugging a huge teddy bear --- joke a bit more about her sleeping habits, whatever she reveals --- ask whether the same applies when she sleeps somewhere else than her home --- exes and sex are likely to surface, and statements like "sleep is so much better after good sex" come naturally.
Blackdragon 2018-05-07 15:30:12
What are the alpha PDAs other than putting arm around her while walking down the street, basically always be close to her?The most Alpha (2.0) PDA while walking down the street with her is to do nothing. Just walk confidently and happily like you're walking next to one of your best guy buddies, focus on the city before you instead of her, and don't touch her at all. (It would be okay to walk on the street side of the sidewalk though.)
I would have thought that kino was a must during a date (my results vastly improved when I started doing it).It's a must if you can do it and if she's receptive, which are usually both the case.
“She’s looking for a submissive and appropriate beta boyfriend or husband, not sex or fun, so sex talk/kino is probably going to just upset her.” : which is a good thing, isn’t it ? When would one want to date such a woman ? (genuine question)Why not? As long as woman is hot and low-drama and has sex with me by date 2 or 3, she's in. I don't care what she wants. I don't lie to women, so what she wants is her problem.
dafuq is PDAPublic Display of Affection, usually something a boyfriend does to a girlfriend or vice versa.
I wish you had written this article a couple of years ago, when I used to persist with the “sex talk-kino on a first date” rule with women that were unexpectedly reluctant to it. I have burned tens of women, in this way.If tens of women are resisting first-date kino with you, then either something is very wrong with your approach or you're focusing mostly on over 33s (which I don't recommend unless you are much older). An under-33 woman getting very uncomfortable with properly-executed first-date kino is the exception to the rule, not the norm.
Anyhow, I still can see no way of you getting laid in the second date under 3 hours, if she does not comply even to kino in the first one.I have had sex with many women within 3 hours with zero kino on my part (mostly VYW, since their ASD is much lower), but it was kino I never attempted, not kino I attempted and then they hated it. In terms of women I've kinoed and then clearly hated it, you might be right, perhaps I didn't have sex with them under 3 hours; not sure. It's an interesting question and I'd have to go through my spreadsheets (and memory) to confirm or refute that.
Blackdragon suggests talking about her past relationships and then insinuating that her ex was bad in bedNo no, that's just one example. There are many ways to do it. You could ask if he was good in bed, or had a big (or small), or how he compares with other men she's been with before him, and so on. You could start talking about sex "in general" instead of sex her ex. And so on. You don't have to talk about her ex, nor do you have to say anything bad about him to get to sex talk. Some of you guys are taking me way to literally here.
Replicant 2018-05-07 18:32:35
@BD @FD said:
“She’s looking for a submissive and appropriate beta boyfriend or husband, not sex or fun, so sex talk/kino is probably going to just upset her.” : which is a good thing, isn’t it ? When would one want to date such a woman ? (genuine question) you answered: Why not? As long as woman is hot and low-drama and has sex with me by date 2 or 3, she’s in. I don’t care what she wants. I don’t lie to women, so what she wants is her problem.I have to agree here with @FD. In these cases the sex talk/kino upseting a girl in the 2 or 3 attempts you do in the first date can give you an idea that this woman is reluctant to have sex (with you and/or in the first(not your style)/second date), so it can be a valuable tool to gauge the girl or her real intention so you can end the date sooner and not wasting your time (and hers). She can be on provider hunter mode so her ASD is higher than normal, or going to a lot of first dates to test guys, or even just getting her level of attention she desires, after all "she is giving you the time of your life with her presence"TM. Also let's face it. A woman who is reluctant to sex talk/kino, even properly executed, will hardly be low-drama.
joelsuf 2018-05-07 21:28:22
I’m interested to hear examples of how guys transition into sex talk.I just talk about it as if the chick was any other person I talk about sex with. If they aren't mature enough to talk about it and if they have so much ASD to where they get creeped out when talking about it, they aren't worth my time. This is for IN PERSON convos however. NOT online. That is not a good idea lol. And under NO circumstances send an unsolicited dick pic. That shit should be against the law haha
The most Alpha (2.0) PDA while walking down the street with her is to do nothing. Just walk confidently and happily like you’re walking next to one of your best guy buddies, focus on the city before you instead of her, and don’t touch her at all.Really? I always walked with my arm around the chick's waist or something. But I suppose this IS the most outcome independent solution. The other day I saw some alpha 1 asshole drag his girl by the arm, while some creepy omega was chasing her. I was like "really bruh? You're sweating some porn addicted, PUA reading omega? LMAO wow." If it was my girl, I would have let him do his thing and just enjoyed the show. Then I would have started asking him really (potentially) embarrassing questions and stuff. Would have been like "go ahead. Take this girl home right now and have dirty hot sex with her. DO IT!" I LOVE when other guys hit on the chicks I'm with. Constant entertainment. Its like you can SEE the gears turning in their heads. The desperation in some of their eyes does hit me pretty good sometimes haha
I’m TOO Outcome Independent, but that overdo it.There is such a thing as being too outcome independent...?
John 2018-05-08 07:16:02
I’m interested to hear examples of how guys transition into sex talk. I never do. If you have touched, flirted, and made strong sexual eye contact, all while sitting very close to them, you can skip the sex talk. They bring it up or they'll start touching you in ways that let you know it's time. Like picking lent off you. Usually on your pants. last 2 girls did that. One was right off my crotch. One before that started telling me that the last guy's penis was too small. "How big is yours?" Dating site girls on a first date.
POB 2018-05-08 07:50:32
Nice post! And you're right about older women. I've found that you can talk about sex with cougars on a first encounter, but you have to be VERY discreet and use it in an elegant way. For example, when you explain something fancy you did with an ex-GF and THEN introduce sex at the end of your history. She'll probably dig it and open up a bit. BTW, loved that picture you chose (her face looks hilarious!)
Harry Flashman 2018-05-08 09:54:04
All great advice. I’ve used subtle, modest kino to great effect. As BD advises, never overdue it, especially if you don’t know someone well and always be respectful of boundaries. If you do, most women respond well. One funny exception to the rule, I was at a bar with a buddy a while back. A moderately attractive, single acquaintance of his walks over and joins us. The bar was loud and we were sitting together closely with all three chairs facing each other, knees almost touching. We were having fun chatting and I barely, just barely touched her leg to get her attention. She stopped, looked me dead in the eye and yelled, DON’T TOUCH MY LEG! It scared the HELL out of my buddy and I. Not a kino fan. Lol. Holy crap. We soon parted ways and my buddy and I laughed our asses off. There’s always the exception.
Blackdragon 2018-05-08 14:40:12
I have to agree here with @FD. In these cases the sex talk/kino upseting a girl in the 2 or 3 attempts you do in the first date can give you an idea that this woman is reluctant to have sex (with you and/or in the first(not your style)/second date), so it can be a valuable tool to gauge the girl or her real intention so you can end the date sooner and not wasting your time (and hers). She can be on provider hunter mode so her ASD is higher than normal, or going to a lot of first dates to test guys, or even just getting her level of attention she desires, after all “she is giving you the time of your life with her presence”TM.Doing "she's refused sex talk / kino therefore I'm not going to fuck this hot girl because of assumptions I'm making about her future behavior" is called screening. I don't screen, ever, for reasons I describe here. Instead, always proceed and attempt to have sex with any woman who isn't giving me drama until I get a hard no. Using my system, this only takes 2-4 hours so there is little time wasted. I have had sex with plenty of women who were sexually reluctant on first / second dates with things like this. And there have been plenty of women who were who I didn't, but I didn't waste very much time.
Also let’s face it. A woman who is reluctant to sex talk/kino, even properly executed, will hardly be low-drama.Irrelevant. As I've said many times before, I currently have (and have had) numerous wonderful FBs (and a tiny handful of low-end MLTRs) who were high drama women... just not high drama with me. I don't care if a woman is low or high-drama (unless I'm evaluating her for OLTR/MLTR, which I do not do on first / second dates!!! That's screening!!!). I only care if she gives me drama. Two very different things. If your answer is that you never do FBs, or that you do FBs but you require certain personality traits from your hot, low-drama (to you) FBs, then that's fine, but you're not following my system if that's the case.
Jocko 2018-05-08 18:11:03
Too much kino is something I've done before. Went on a date with a girl that was very excited to go out with me and very receptive to initial light touches, so I escalated. But as BD said, most women won't explicitly tell you to stop. In hindsight, she got very uncomfortable with me escalating that quickly and it sucks I made her feel like that. She demonstrated a lot of the non-verbal signs BD outlines in this article And about the sex talk thing, I usually start by asking about relationship history. Sometimes sex talk naturally just flows from there. If it doesn't quite flow on, I ask what their worst date was. Then ask about the worst sex they've ever had. If she beats around the bush or doesn't want to talk about it, then drop it. Other times, women will really engage with it and ask me what mine was. I say my worst sex has been with women that don't really get into it From there, I like to talk about how I really enjoy passionate sex and making my partner feel good. Maybe drop a couple of things that I like to do to women. Get their imagination going and let them know that I know what I'm doing in bed Once you've got her imagination all riled up, it's time to play it by ear again. If there's a good chance we'll fuck on the first date, I'll keep the sex talk going and physically escalate. If there's not much chance, then I leave it on high note and move to another topic. Nothing worse than seeming too excited about sex Oh yeah and if she's not into being touched or sex talk on the first date, personally I don't think that means shit. Girls get nervous before dates as well and/or just take awhile to open up to new people. As long as you keep the first date relaxed and fun, most women will probably want to see you again
Fibonacci 2018-05-09 12:30:44
Agree. But for some, you have to do it all wrong a few times to be able to calibrate and get a "feel" for doing it in a calibrated way. Trying to get it too right the first times can shoot you in the foot and make paranoid about making any moves. BD. I have a question about MLTRs and emotional jealousy. I just started one fresh three months in, my first, thanks for all the help! Strong feelings + non-monogamy! It is pretty cool. She knows it is okay for us to meet others. And she gets it that I do. But should I avoid talking about my other FB/ONS girls completely? I kind of want to talk about them, stories and fun things maybe (preferrably sex too, but that will assumably be a big stretch), I feel it might hurt her feelings even if she is okay with it on a logical level. Also I have a question about my own feelings. I get so jealous as she is with other guys, knowing she has tinder installed, and I am being jealous and paranoid when she hangs out and studies with guys in her class. Is this only because I am new to being non-monogamous? Will it go away by itself in the future? I want to be able to enjoy the positive fresh feelings, and depth of connection, without having to give a shit about her seeing others. Going serial-monogamous is not an option. Any advice or good already written articles about this?
Anon 2018-05-09 13:33:11
But should I avoid talking about my other FB/ONS girls completely?Calibration, as you say yourself. Observe her and determine what she's interested in, what she's ready for. Does she raise these topics herself?
I am being jealous and paranoid when she hangs out and studies with guys in her classSo you're actually fucking other girls, but feel uneasy when she just studies? Most guys are so beta. For me, it helped to an extent that so was I up to a point, and imagining her in company of other guys, I would think of my former self in place of the guys and breathe with relief : ) BD has some anti-jealousy advice in his book on open relationships.
roger 2018-05-09 16:42:05
Black Dragon I want to know how you deal with psycho feminazi's, crazy hippies, Communist Lefties, hyper religious? Do they get past the dating stage? Do you actively filter them out?
D7x 2018-05-09 20:20:06
Hello, BD I saw the old topic about the six reason why men shouldn't compliment a woman based on appearance, and I agree with you 100%. Keep up the good work. The reason I comment here because maybe that topic was old so you I don't think you would reply? Here. The reason I commenting you is I want to tell you some what-if questions you don't mind asking. Even though you made a topic about not complimenting women's appearance. What happens if a woman tells you any question that based on her appearance as well as telling any sexy/flirty questions before having sex with her ?
How do I look in this dress?
"Do you think I'm attractive in that photo?" "Am I Cute/Gorgeous/Hot/Sexy?" "Do you fantasize about me?"Also, what if any female you contact with were to tell you what type of girls you like? Looking forward for your reply.
Gang 2018-05-10 12:21:39
I was listening to your interview in Upfront & Straightforward with Alan Roger Currie (Mode One), just before you posted that one, it's a nice coincidence. I have to say that your way of doing sex talk is still somehow abstract to me. I do have a clearer understanding of what Alan is doing in term of sex talk, and it seems super fun to do but maybe not very effective. However I'd be very curious to hear a typical example of the full discution between you and a woman. Or a transcript but the non verbal parts of the voices would be missing. Do you have anything like that already available? Myself I almost never go into any sex talk in the first date, I may ask about her past experiences but they always talk about relationship not sex, and it's boring as fuck anyways "he cheated on me" (duh! of course he did) or this type of typical thing. However on second date, always my place, I talk about what a SAFEWORD is and show examples with tickling. Then I talk about cuddling/hugging (I know you say no cuddling with FB but I don't really see the harm, maybe because I frame myself as a very cuddly guy who loves to cuddle with friends, not as a romantic thing. Maybe I am wrong). Like I talk about if she has pets and how I liked to hug and cuddle my cats when I was a kid. Who she cuddles, her siblings, her friends? I say I like to cuddle a lot, also with friends. Then suddenly I say: you wsnt to cuddle? Most of the time they say yes. Sometimes they feel wierd but ultimately they accept. Very rarely they refuse, or say "I am good". I might propose 1 or 2 additional times, but no more. I remind her the logic of SAFEWORD while I start hugging/cuddling her. Then I escalate super quickly, usually 5 minutes after cuddle proposition, my cock is inside her mouth, anus or vagina. I think 90% of the time or more we never talked about anything remotely related to sex before it happens, besides the safeword which I don't even present with any sexual reference.
Blackdragon 2018-05-10 16:04:14
I just started one fresh three months in, my first, thanks for all the help!You're very welcome, but, https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl/
Black Dragon I want to know how you deal with psycho feminazi’s, crazy hippies, Communist Lefties, hyper religious? Do they get past the dating stage? Do you actively filter them out?Read my comment above. I never screen anyone. Screening is stupid.
Or a transcript but the non verbal parts of the voices would be missing. Do you have anything like that already available?The upcoming younger woman book has some IM transcripts.
DaGangsta 2018-05-29 15:08:35
Hi BD, I'm just curious as to what some good first date ideas are. It would be much appreciated if you could offer some insight. Thanks