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Living Together OLTR Update – September 2018
Here’s another update on something no one else on the entire internet (with an actual audience of a decent size) has the balls to talk about except me: my open marriage with my wife, Pink Firefly. It’s been about three months since the last update, and a lot of you guys keep asking about this and requesting more updates. I’m here to please.
-By Caleb Jones
Things are going well so far. She’s been busy with her job and I’ve been busy with my work, and we spend the weekends together as our mutual break time (though I still get a few hours of work in on the weekends; I work every day, by choice). Yesterday I posted a funny blurb about our sleeping arrangements at my other blog. The article is here if you’re interested.
Our wedding ceremony was last month, and I’m glad it’s over. Setting up one of these fucking things is a nightmare, and even though Pink Firefly did 95% of the work (and paid for most of it), it was still an occasional pain in my ass. The actual ceremony was nice though, once the initial phases were over and I could actually relax. The day after, we both got massages and spent several days at the beach, which was very nice. We go to Cabo San Lucas for our real honeymoon later this month.
During the four weeks before the wedding, PF was extremely stressed out at the numerous problems that occur with this kind of thing, and she’s very perfectionist when it comes to this kind of stuff. She finally relaxed after the wedding was over, thank god.
As I mentioned in the last update, we started seeing the counselor several weeks ago. Not because anything was wrong (it wasn’t) but to A) help us navigate our two vastly different communication styles and B) get an unbiased third party opinion when needed.
I expected to go through one or two counselors before finding one that was decent, but we lucked out; the counselor we found on our very first try turned out to be very good and someone we both liked. She’s got decades of marital / couples experience and vast experience counseling nonmonogamous couples. However, not once in our sessions have we discussed sex, nonmonogamy, my FB’s, or any of that stuff. It’s just not a problem for us. Communication is much more important, at least for us. (All OLTR couples are different and will encounter different problems or bottlenecks.)
With her help, our communication has improved. I’m able to demonstrate more empathy when needed (though it hurts my head to do so sometimes) and she’s able to stay more organized and rational during her communication (though I’m sure this hurts her head sometimes too). As to exactly how we’re doing this, you’re just going to have to wait until December of 2020 when I publish the book on all this.
In terms of drama management in a live-in relationship/marriage, there are two aspects that need to be handled:
1. How to handle the drama when it comes up to diffuse it quickly.
2. The frequency of how often the drama comes up in the first place.
Failure to do item number one means you will end up in these hour-long arguments so many married couples have. Failure to do item two means you'll be putting up with constant arguing, sniping, nagging, and bitching as a regular part of the relationship. (Again, typical for most marriages.)
If you get both of those things handled, you’re in good shape. We have been mostly focused on item number one (communication again). Moving forward, we’re going to focus on item number two, since I want the absolute minimum number of drama incidents within any given time frame (week, month, year, etc).
The reason for this is that the next big transition in our relationship occurs today. Today is Pink Firefly’s last day at her corporate job. She’s coming home to work full-time on her Alpha 2.0 businesses as well as help me out in my marketing company as one of my virtual assistants. Her and I being home most of the day means the difficulty factor has now been raised in our relationship. We have already set up a schedule where she leaves me alone during the day so I can get work done, yet where we also spend a certain amount of time together on a regular basis, since Quality Time is her number one love language. (Mine is Physical Touch.)
Will it be hard to keep drama to an absolute minimum when she’s home all day with me? Yes. But we have several factors going for us (or else I would not have attempted this):
- My home office is located in a completely separate part of the house. You have to literally walk through the garage to get there and go through multiple doors.
- I rent a small, separate office 15 minutes away from the house that I can drive to if I need alone time. It’s also set up as a small apartment (it's also where I have sex with my FBs). PF doesn't know where this office is.
- She’s going to have shitloads of work to do herself, and she’s a hard worker. This is one of the reasons I fell in love with her; I’m attracted to workaholic women.
- We’re almost four years into our relationship (nine months of which cohabiting), so I know exactly what kind of person I’m dealing with.
- She’s shown a track record, via her actions and not words, that she’s willing to put in the work to make this kind of relationship work, even during the isolated times when she doesn’t really want to. This is something I did not have with my first wife the last time I was married (in a traditional, monogamous marriage… yuck!). Her attitude was more typical of a married woman; that most of the problems were my fault, that I needed to “shape up,” and that she didn't need to change anything because she was “working hard already" or something.
I have still been trying to find one “main” FB on the side who is reliable, and after trying and failing with two different women in a row, I’ve come to the conclusion that the universe just doesn’t want me to have a primary FB right now. So I’m going to stop trying and instead stick with my current group of three different FBs who I see regularly, based on whoever is available that week. I usually see one FB per week.
A lot of you have been asking for pictures of Pink Firefly (and of us). I’ve been waiting until she’s comfortable with that. I asked her to be in my upcoming Alpha 2.0 Business Video Course but she refused. So instead, I promise I will post pictures of her on this blog by the end of this year.
That’s it for now! For those of you about to raise objections to anything I’m doing, since I’ve seen these objections over and over again already, I’m going to save myself some commenting time and preemptively respond to them here:
Objection: “BD, I don’t think this is going to work, because...”
My answer: Read this.
Objection: “You’re seeing a fucking counselor? I would never do that! A real man would never do that! Just fucking tell her what to do!”
My answer: You’re an Alpha Male 1.0 and that’s not who I am. I’m an Alpha Male 2.0. I don’t tell women what to do because A) I'm outcome independent and don't care, and B) I have better things to do. I'm a man on a Mission and I don't have the time or desire to babysit females. I just let them do whatever they want and leave them if they stop making me happy.
Objection: “You’re doing NAWALT! Now that you guys are married, she’s going to instantly start turning into a bitch!”
My answer: If you’re right (and the odds are you’re not), then fine, I will end the relationship, lose zero money, and my sex with my FBs will continue. You’re forgetting this is an OLTR Marriage, not a traditional monogamous one where divorce = mass chaos and problems. By the way, Pink Firefly is aware of all of this, which creates further pressure on her to continue to play nice (unlike monogamous marriages where the woman has little to no incentive to keep the relationship going).
Objection: “This is all bullshit! PF is probably ugly!”
My answer: You’ll see pics of her by the end of the year and you can judge for yourself. PF is very pretty, looks about 28-29 years old with no wrinkles anywhere, has long platinum blonde hair, is just over a hundred pounds at 5’4”, has very big boobs, and looks like a Playboy bunny. Yep, really ugly.
Objection: “You can’t be Alpha 2.0 if she’s going to work for you! You'll have to tell her what to do!”
My answer: In terms of business tasks, correct. She’s already been doing some work for me and she fully understands that when it comes to business only, I will tell her what to do and she must do it and do it with no argument, or else she gets fired, just like any other virtual assistant. I have contingency plans in place for this possibility, as always.
Anyway, more updates coming soon. I’ll try to post more of these. (I really want Pink Firefly to write one of these, but that’s up to her.) Pink Firefly will also be reading the comments, so if you have questions for her, free to ask (though she's under no obligation to answer you).
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Johnny Ringo 2018-09-13 05:25:42
Been living with my girlfriend for 7 years now and we both work on the same business and have for years. I'm a physical touch guy, she is a quality time gal. It's good you two have the rules you have going in. Will be very helpful to the relationship and it was good foresight to go into it that way ahead of time. We just recently set up essentially the same thing. I am to be left alone during the day during work hours and we have a couple of days a week that we do things that are focused on us and non-business. It's an attraction killer to me being around her so much, for so long, with such frequency as I'm an introvert by nature. This is why I will be getting away a week each month and also taking more time away from her during the day. Sometimes very hard to transition to business talk and struggles/challenges and then get into mode for fun time. Crass as it may sound, I'm at the point now where I'm scheduling it out. (she used to make fun of her Dad for doing the same thing, oh the irony) I always have things to do, so it's hard to be spontaneous and she is not much of a decision maker. lol I should also note we have had many deep talks on these subjects over the years and simply haven't been figuring out how to make it work more efficiently until recently. It was literally driving me crazy, as she is finishing sentences all the time, grabbing things before I grab them, and was "there" everytime I turned around, day and night, for years on end "to help". Just a little too synced up. (I know women love that, but I'm very independent) Some things to consider for both of you that you have probably considered already from someone actively doing it.
Morina Morino 2018-09-13 05:56:03
Someone over there.. Just immediately to punch BD in the face, please! Shit, this is happening. It can't be more REAL!!
Antekirtt 2018-09-13 06:00:46
Some questions for Pink Firefly: 1° How would you rate yourself physically from 0 to 10, both in absolute terms and "for your age"? 2° Objectively, which qualities or physical/personality traits do you like most in CJ and/or think make him a high-value partner/husband etc? 3° Can you visualize an idealized man who would be even better for you than CJ (if you'd met both men back when you first knew CJ), and how would he be like? 4° How important is it for you that this relationship last a lifetime, and what odds (%) do you think it has of reaching at least the 5-year mark counting from the date you had your wedding? 5° Which aspects or opinions of CJ - especially in relation to these two blogs - do you object to or have some thoughts to share about? 6° Do you think a big part of the reason you ended up together has to do with the seduction, relationship management and self-improvement guidelines he provides on his blogs and in his books? (I'd expect that most women would dislike the idea that one or another tactic "works on them", but either way I just want to hear your view) 7° Do you think you're rather atypical in your tastes in men or that many other women would probably find BD a good match? Thank you.
John 2018-09-13 06:29:54
This shit's going to be pinkdragonblog in a year. Blog about how to make your man your bitch and take his blog... Just kidding. Congratulations and I'm happy for you.. Look forward to the updates.
hollywood 2018-09-13 07:38:00
I know this is a detrimental thing to speculate on so I understand if you choose not to answer, but you are realistic to acknowledge that relationships don't usually last forever. Are you now able to speculate as to how long your relationship should (in theory) last? Based on how things are going and how you are managing the relationship, are you able to guess as to when it may end? I've read your article about your expectations, which mainly lists what you envision, but now that you have more time in the actual marriage, are you better able to speculate on this specific relationships' lasting power?
Tim Garrison 2018-09-13 08:10:14
Any woman I've ever met has always wanted to get married and have the man all to herself. If the man started dating another woman , the first woman would be heartbroken. So how do you do it Pink Firefly? How do you allow your man ( Black Dragon ) to date other woman and not get heartbroken yourself ? Thank you. Ps: this is a very important question I'm asking you. Because I would like to date multiple women , but I don't want to hurt women by breaking their hearts.
John 2018-09-13 08:38:31
Ps: this is a very important question I’m asking you. Because I would like to date multiple women , but I don’t want to hurt women by breaking their hearts.Very good question because it does come down to not wanting to hurt the woman sometimes. They start out with "you can date others" then you get feelings for them, you see how much it hurts (if like my girl they're super sweet and non-bitchy), and you stop dating other women. I have no answer for this myself.
Anon 2018-09-13 08:43:50
I would like to date multiple women , but I don’t want to hurt women by breaking their hearts.The answer is very simple, just do it. Some women might not be excited about it, but you won't break anyone's heart. If from the very beginning you are seen as 85% player, 15% provider the way BD recommends, if you don't ever lie, then the women know from the very beginning what you're like. Those with whom this is truly incompatible will leave you at a very early stage and your road to happiness will not be paved with any heart tissue.
Trudodyr 2018-09-13 08:55:02
Ps: this is a very important question I’m asking you. Because I would like to date multiple women , but I don’t want to hurt women by breaking their hearts.I have no idea what/whether PF will answer to you, but I think that you are asking the wrong question and you also address it to the wrong person. Let me explain: 1) Many women are (or would be) ok with non-monogamous arrangement. The reason it doesn't happen more often is actually men, because they don't know how to go about it. It's true that some women are more likely to be ok with it than others, but still. 2) In any case, it may be something she is, but it's not something she does. And even there was something she is actively doing to be able to bear his non-monogamy, what would be your plan? Would you start dating a woman monogamously and then tell her "listen, if you do this and that you will be ok with me sleeping with other women"? 3) It's really about what you do. If you set up everything right from the beginning, you won't have to lie or cheat on or mislead women you date about this. Just listen to what BD has to say, he knows his stuff and it works. @BD: I remember being quite surprised when I read that you use a couples counselor, but I quickly realized that it is actually a good sign and something to learn from - it just confirms that you play the long game and are proactive about preventing issues before they happen (very Alpha 2.0), and also that you have your ego in check (as opposed to something like "I make a living off giving dating/relationship advice goddamit, I don't need a fucking counselor!").
Blackdragon 2018-09-13 10:15:28
Many women are (or would be) ok with non-monogamous arrangement. The reason it doesn’t happen more often is actually men, because they don’t know how to go about it.Correct, as I've said many times. If long-term nonmonogamy made women "heartbroken," I would never have had any nonmono relationships that lasted past a year or so, yet and I've had numerous ones that lasted many, many years with no problems.
it just confirms that you play the long game and are proactive about preventing issues before they happen (very Alpha 2.0)You just described me in a nutshell. I play the long game. Always. And with everything.
also that you have your ego in check (as opposed to something like “I make a living off giving dating/relationship advice goddamit, I don’t need a fucking counselor!”).Yes, though I'm not perfect in this area and never will be. You can't have a big, defensive ego if you want a long-term, low-drama relationship. Big egos = big drama. I can't have drama, so I have to learn to humble myself when needed (including those times when I don't want to).
Duke 2018-09-13 10:34:59
this is a very important question I’m asking you. Because I would like to date multiple women , but I don’t want to hurt women by breaking their hearts.Every time someone asks a question like this I always think about the inverse situation. Do you think women worry or put any thought or effort into not breaking men's hearts? Do women feel bad for divorcing you and then receiving spousal support or excessive child support, while you are broke and living like a peasant? Of course not. Men are pretty much conditioned to marry whether they really want to or not. Do a lot men want to be married? Of course? Do a lot of men not really want to be married? Yes, but they do it anyway. It's similar to getting a woman into a non monogamous relationship. She doesn't really want to do it and it might frustrate her a bit, but she'll have to "learn" to accept it in order to be with you; and if you have the right mindset you should not feel bad about this. The difference is that generally women pressure men to marry them, while alpha 2.0s could care less if she accepts non-monogamy or not since he is (hopefully) getting sex and companionship from other women.
MalkeyMonkey 2018-09-13 11:56:12
I don't understand why you'd decide to move in with a woman full-time, considering your hardline polyamory and no-drama rules. Even when I was in my mid-teens reading your blog and still semi-attached to monogamy as a lifestyle, I knew I didn't want to live with a woman because I don't want to be on my best behavior 24/7 and put up with daily drama. And I have a MUCH higher tolerance and even liking for drama than you do, BD--so why even move in together at all? Why go through a marriage ceremony?
Blackdragon 2018-09-13 12:08:09
why even move in together at all? Why go through a marriage ceremony?Why Move In With A Woman At All?
Bulma78 2018-09-13 12:33:41
Well I can’t wait to see the picture(s)!!! It’s always exciting to see what someone looks like when you’ve been reading about them…….kind of like when you listen to the people on morning talk radio and you wonder what they look like!
Grant 2018-09-13 14:19:37
Just wanted to let you know this is the most interesting thing you write about. Most everything else is covered so extensively in your books. Also, the having 1 reliable FB thing.. that sounds like it would be nice, but from my experience with how they come and go every 3-9 months when kept at the FB level, seems unattainable as a long term thing. A bit too close to de-facto monogamy too.
Blackdragon 2018-09-13 14:58:46
Also, the having 1 reliable FB thing.. that sounds like it would be nice, but from my experience with how they come and go every 3-9 months when kept at the FB level, seems unattainable as a long term thing.No, that isn't my problem. Many of the FBs I'm seeing now I've been seeing for many years. My problem is not length, but consistency; seeing one person regularly on a reliable schedule. That's proven to be pretty much impossible (at least for me).
A bit too close to de-facto monogamy too.True, but if I had such a person I would keep another one as an infrequent back-up.
skills 2018-09-13 15:59:15
Blackdragon got the 2.0 alpha audio pretty good... now 2 questions, how are you planning to deal with this long term (i had the same exact problem):
I have still been trying to find one “main” FB on the side who is reliable, and after trying and failing with two different women in a row, I’ve come to the conclusion that the universe just doesn’t want me to have a primary FB right now. So I’m going to stop trying and instead stick with my current group of three different FBs who I see regularly, based on whoever is available that week. I usually see one FB per week.Second main problem you are going to have is, how are you going to deal with the coolidge effect of living together and seeing her every day.... (i experienced this problem of course i was more of trhill of the chase guy, but as i have gotten older i am becoming more of the pos type), but still i can not escape the coolidge effect.... Final question, how often per average do you have sex with pink fairly?
Blackdragon 2018-09-13 16:30:16
how are you planning to deal with this long term1. Just keep 2-3 FBs around. 2. Reduce the frequency, over time, of how often I see FBs, making it less of an issue (though never bring it to zero because that's monogamy and monogamy doesn't work). This will be further complicated when I leave the country, but still won't be any big deal.
how are you going to deal with the coolidge effect of living together and seeing her every dayAs you said, the Coolidge effect is only a problem with Thrill of the Hunt Men. I'm a Pleasure of Sex man so I've literally never gotten sexually bored with any woman, ever (unless she got full-on fat), even when I was monogamously married for 9 years. Thrill of the Hunt men should either avoid OLTRs completely, or when having an OLTR, regularly (2-3 times per year or so) go get new women to feed their hunting desire, and build that into their long-term lifestyle. (Which yes, is going to be a pain in the ass for older men. That's the price you pay for being TotH.)
how often per average do you have sex with pink fairly?About 2-3 times per week, since five days per week she's gone for 9-10 hours per day. Now that she's home full time I'm sure this frequency will increase.
X 2018-09-13 17:00:39
I’m a Pleasure of Sex man so I’ve literally never gotten sexually bored with any woman, ever (unless she got full-on fat), even when I was monogamously married for 9 years.So, if you are not sexually bored with the same woman and you have a great pair bond, what's wrong with this type of monogamy again?
Blackdragon 2018-09-13 17:43:14
So, if you are not sexually bored with the same woman and you have a great pair bond, what’s wrong with this type of monogamy again?What happens when you want to fuck her and she refuses? What happens if she divorces/dumps you? What happens when she starts making demands? What happens if she gets fat? What happens when she stops giving you blowjobs? What happens when she starts giving you drama (and she will if you're monogamous)? What happens if...
Jack Outside the Box 2018-09-13 18:03:13
what’s wrong with this type of monogamy again?Can you give another scenario where it would be smart to put all your eggs in one basket, or enslave yourself to a monopoly? Competition creates incentive to treat people fairly. Diversification lowers the price and frees you from currency manipulation, control, and tyranny.
Lovergirl 2018-09-13 19:55:00
Didn’t you say Pink Firefly was extroverted? How is she going to be stuck working from home, with no kids, without going crazy from lack of human interaction- without expecting it all from you? That’s what I would foresee as an issue and her getting more clingy because she’s not socializing as much and wanting more attention and getting more annoyed that you have FB’s. Getting away for work would help but it seems like it would curtail her social life, as would moving overseas.
Nandi Heart 2018-09-13 22:31:35
So, if you are not sexually bored with the same woman and you have a great pair bond, what’s wrong with this type of monogamy again?From a woman's perspective, I'd NEVER want my man to be monogamous to me. I love knowing he can fuck whomever he wants when he wants, and he still chooses me as his favorite person. It's an active choice for both of us, I'm not some default he's stuck with because he made some silly archaic promise, and vice-versa. I've lived a life of monogamy -- no thanks. Why put that kind of strain on a relationship if you want it to last? I don't think "typical" women realize how much monogamy limits a long-term relationship and what is actually sacrificed by that choice, even if she chooses not to fuck others besides her primary. You lose the essence of the man you're attracted to, so eventually you'll lose the attraction. Then what's left? Just a "friend" or a "roommate"? Why would you take that risk with someone you love and want to be with for a long time? And for me, I don't want those limits... I want freedom and happiness for both me and my partner. I want to continue to be sexually attracted to him and keep building our relationship from a standpoint of mutual respect and honesty, and especially sexual intensity. How would that be possible if he feels he's restricted by me? Or me by him? That leads to resentment... is that healthy for a long term relationship? Is that going to be sexually fulfilling for anyone long-term? Will that truly make us happy to be together? Personally I have a difficult time believing monogamy makes anyone truly happy in a lasting relationship. Do I get jealous sometimes when he fucks other chicks? Sure, I'm human... but I'd much prefer that to being bored and losing sexual interest in him. Does he also get jealous when I play? Yep... and for both of us, it's fucking hot.
Blackdragon 2018-09-13 23:17:51
Didn’t you say Pink Firefly was extroverted?Yes, but not extremely so.
How is she going to be stuck working from home, with no kids, without going crazy from lack of human interaction- without expecting it all from you? That’s what I would foresee as an issue and her getting more clingy because she’s not socializing as much and wanting more attentionWe've already discussed that and she's quite aware of it. I've given her several ideas but A) I'm no expert on how to have a social life and B) frankly, her social life is her problem, not mine. She's going to set her own schedule and she's free to go hang out with friends and family whenever she likes, seven days a week. If she chooses to not do this, well, again, her problem.
I don’t think “typical” women realize how much monogamy limits a long-term relationship and what is actually sacrificed by that choice, even if she chooses not to fuck others besides her primary. You lose the essence of the man you’re attracted to, so eventually you’ll lose the attraction.Precisely. This is why a woman never loses attraction for an Alpha Male 2.0 the way she routinely does with beta males and even some overly possessive Alpha 1.0s. (Of course she can still leave the Alpha 2.0, but only because he's not giving her any Disney as an FB or MLTR, not because she's lost attraction.)
And for me, I don’t want those limits… I want freedom and happiness for both me and my partner. I want to continue to be sexually attracted to him and keep building our relationship from a standpoint of mutual respect and honesty, and especially sexual intensity. How would that be possible if he feels he’s restricted by me? Or me by him? That leads to resentment… is that healthy for a long term relationship?About a week ago, Pink Firefly told me that she had an extra layer of security in our relationship because I was able to "have my cake and eat it too." Meaning I had less incentive to leave her than if it was a purely monogamous relationship. And she's absolutely right.
GoodSense3 2018-09-13 23:17:56
Wow BD and his chick has a relationship consultant lol. Yo BD what is a Cuck? Are those only dudes that watch their chick have sex w other dudes like in the porns lol. I think cuck is the main word that keep a lot of dudes fron refusing their girl to fornicate with another man. Also have u and your girl watched porn together to learn new sex skills lol?
GoodSense3 2018-09-13 23:37:22
BD you actually have a relationship consultant that you and your girl meet with to discuss relationship goals. Wow bro wow bro. This is almost as flabbergasting as u saying you take 500-700 photos with professional photographer and choose only 3 out of 500-700 to use online lmao. U never cease to amaze me lol.
Blackdragon 2018-09-13 23:57:31
Yo BD what is a Cuck? Are those only dudes that watch their chick have sex w other dudes like in the porns lolYep. Not my thing but some guys are into that, including one of my own brothers.
I think cuck is the main word that keep a lot of dudes fron refusing their girl to fornicate with another manIn the Trump era, the word "cuck" has lost its meaning because it's used to describe "any guy I don't like." The right-wingers have neutered the word "cuck" the same way the left-wingers neutered the word "racist." They're both tossed around so much that now they're meaningless and used mostly by idiots (and only taken seriously by idiots).
Also have u and your girl watched porn together to learn new sex skills lol?Not really. Porn isn't really my thing. Sex is my thing.
B 2018-09-14 01:01:20
Good stuff! It's always nice to hear the relationship is going well, congrats. 1) once a week with FBs sounds like a lot considering you're having lots of sex with PF. What's the MINIMUM number of times per month you'd be happy seeing FBs in this case? 2) what was the progression of your relationship with PF (chronologically)?
TonyOutOfNowhere 2018-09-14 09:09:00
BD, What about the aspect of betaization? Is it happening and if so, how do you deal with that? Thanks.
Blackdragon 2018-09-14 09:38:49
Good stuff! It’s always nice to hear the relationship is going well, congrats.Thanks!
1) once a week with FBs sounds like a lot considering you’re having lots of sex with PF.I require sex every other day on average, which is about 3-4 days per week. Sometimes more. I have a very high sex drive. I'm also still "getting used to" living with a woman and having my primary source of sex come from one person like that, so keeping up with the FBs keeps me more "comfortable" with my frame. Over time this will lessen.
What’s the MINIMUM number of times per month you’d be happy seeing FBs in this case?Hm. Good question. I had to think about it. Right now I'd say bare minimum would be 3 times(?). Maybe 4? Over time I'm assuming it will be less (but never zero).
2) what was the progression of your relationship with PF (chronologically)?She was a close FB for exactly a year, then for a year we didn't see each other but kept in touch, then she was an MLTR for about 5ish months, then OLTR since early summer of 2016 (or so).
What about the aspect of betaization? Is it happening and if so, how do you deal with that?She's an OLTR so attempted betaization is unavoidable and began a very long time ago (about two years ago or so). She has a more meek and quiet personality so her betaization attempts, when they happen, are very minor and no big deal. (At least so far; you never know what the future holds.) One the little details of our relationship, I'm outcome independent, don't give a shit, let her do whatever she wants, and usually give in to her requests. On the big stuff, like nonmonogamy, my work, my Mission, my schedule, my finances, etc, I obviously maintain my frame and don't change my mind on anything, ever. That's my number one job in the relationship. The minute I start turning beta is the minute this all comes crashing down, so it's my responsibility to never let that happen.
B 2018-09-15 07:01:45
Thanks! That's kinda how I was in my last OLTR. I would see my FBs 1-2 days a week even though I was having sex with my OLTR 3-4 days a week, but I was just starting out and kinda excited to be having good sex with multiple women. So you knew pf pretty well by the time you guys reconnected? 5 months seems quick. How soon after you started seeing each other did you start assessing her for OLTR status and having relationship talks?
Blackdragon 2018-09-15 09:59:54
So you knew pf pretty well by the time you guys reconnected?Very well.
5 months seems quick.It wasn't 5 months. It was 17 months. If you know someone very well and have been hanging out and having sex for an entire year before the 5 months, it's 17 months. Even when she was an FB we would sit on her couch (or mine) and talk a lot before having sex.
How soon after you started seeing each other did you start assessing her for OLTR status and having relationship talks?Those are two very different things. I started assessing her after about 2 months or so, but again, I already new her very well by then so the level of assessment required was no where near what it would have been if I had just met her. We had the OLTR talk about 5 months in.
B 2018-09-15 15:48:56
Thanks Caleb, that helps.
Jonnas 2018-09-16 07:58:52
BD,have you or PF experienced NRE due to the wedding? If so could you tell us in the next article how long it has lasted?It was as powerfull as the NRE from the beginning of the relationship or less powerfull?
William 2018-09-16 08:36:01
Blackdragon 2018-09-16 10:53:30
BD,have you or PF experienced NRE due to the wedding?I haven't since weddings don't mean anything to me. I don't think PF has either but I could be wrong and she's welcome to answer herself if she wishes. We had already been living together for many months, so the wedding didn't really signify any major change in the day-to-day experience of the relationship (again, at least for me).
Truc 2018-09-17 07:41:17
Awesome post BD. It is great to see someone pushing the boundaries and codifying this stuff, exciting times. Kind of like at the beginning of PuA. Looking forward to your future book, as it seems to me that non-monogamy is the next frontier for the seduction/pick-up community, now that pretty much everything as been said about the pick-up phase.
JudoJohn 2018-09-17 15:51:49
I have still been trying to find one “main” FB on the side who is reliable, and after trying and failing with two different women in a row, I’ve come to the conclusion that the universe just doesn’t want me to have a primary FB right now.Kind of happy to read this line...seems like sugar babies would be easy to schedule, but it also seems like using sugar babies in an OLTR is kind of cheating. It's not just about sex, it's about a lifestyle, OI, etc.
Blackdragon 2018-09-17 19:33:04
seems like sugar babies would be easy to schedule, but it also seems like using sugar babies in an OLTR is kind of cheatingIt works just fine, but you'll encounter a lot of the same issues with young sugar babies as normal young FBs in terms of regular scheduling (though the sugar babies tend to stick around much longer and LSNFTE less often; that's a plus).
Jack Outside the Box 2018-09-18 01:47:59
young sugar babiesHey BD, any chance you can do a blog post, or at least provide us with an explanation as to why you switched from fucking real women to fucking prostitutes? I'm asking because it seemed, at least for a while, that you and I were in agreement with respect to being against prostitution in the philosophical sense. I think you once even stated here that you philosophically agree with me on this issue. So what changed? Why are most of your FBs now whores instead of real women? How, when, and why did this transition take place? Is it because you're getting old and are finding it harder to get the Type 2s to fuck you? That's a serious question.
Mike Hunter 2018-09-18 06:20:15
Black Dragon: It would seem to me that most women would freak out about not knowing the location of your office. Is Pink Firefly ok with this? Does she not know the location of your business office because you don't want her getting jealous and coming by? How much do you have to pay per month for extra office space?
Antekirtt 2018-09-18 07:03:09
I’m asking because it seemed, at least for a while, that you and I were in agreement with respect to being against prostitution in the philosophical sense. I think you once even stated here that you philosophically agree with me on this issue.@JOTB: Because you never were, not really. BD is a problem solver, while you're an idealist with extreme puritanical stances - albeit not in the usual sex-negative sense - on multiple levels. So BD just does what works to get the sex he needs with minimum hassle (and AFAIK he hasn't "changed", he's been quite consistent about *when* paying for sex is acceptable), while you are actually planning to give up on sex when age starts to diminish your looks and sexual performance "to turn to more spiritual stuff", in the name of some social darwinist premise that when nature starts trying to get us back into the ground we should just comply, lie down and die. BD just wants to be happy for as long as possible, using whatever means compatible with his personal code, and doesn't encumber himself with circular naturalistic fallacies. I doubt he's gonna be having blue balls in his 60s.
JudoJohn 2018-09-18 08:00:17
I know that PF reads this blog and certainly this post, so I'm trying to be sensitive on the point....I think the difference with BD interacting with sugar babies and a guy like me, inexperienced in non-monogamy and relatively poor, interacting with sugar babies is totally different. This is why I spend so much time on the mat and under the barbell. Dread Game is such a thing. Patrice O'Neil: "If I lose my ability to catch fish, then you're not going to find me sexy anymore, so I need to continue to catch fish, so you can smell fish on me, so you can act right." I don't think this would be BD's problem any time soon, plus he makes it clear that only experienced guys should be in OLTR's in the first place.......I'm not even remotely interested myself.....but I do have to say, if a guy who has never spun plates/maintained MLTR's/FB's over considerable time and talks his monogamous wife/gf into letting him play with sugar babies, this is not an OLTR, exactly because of the covert contracts underlying the arrangement.
Blackdragon 2018-09-18 09:03:26
I’m asking because it seemed, at least for a while, that you and I were in agreement with respect to being against prostitution in the philosophical sense. I think you once even stated here that you philosophically agree with me on this issue.I have literally never changed my position on paying for sex. Which is: It's perfectly fine provided you have a strong financial position and you have the ability to get laid with hot women without paying for it (men over age 60 excepted). If you have a weaker financial position and/or you can only get laid with women (or cute women) by paying for it, then paying for sex is a terrible idea on multiple levels and you should not do it. My opinions on this (as usual) are based in objectivity, not philosophy (as in your case) or societal programming (as in most other peoples' case). Paying for sex when you can get it for free is the same as paying for marketing vs doing it yourself. If you don't have a lot of money, do your marketing yourself. If you have plenty of money but much less time, pay someone to do your marketing for you; that's very smart. I am now in the latter category; I make much more money these days and have less time, so I'm more interested getting to the FB (and maintaining the FB) much faster and easier even if it requires a little money which I can easily afford. Second benefit for those in an OLTR Marriage: your OLTR will be more comfortable with this setup since she knows there's money involved with the FBs instead of feelings.
It would seem to me that most women would freak out about not knowing the location of your office.Not if they lived with you full-time in a stable relationship.
Is Pink Firefly ok with this?Yep. She doesn't give a shit. Nor would I if she had an external office herself.
Does she not know the location of your business office because you don’t want her getting jealous and coming by?If I was concerned about that I would have never married her since she would have never qualified for OLTR in the first place (jealous women can't be OLTRs). She's just never asked and I've never told. I've pointed out the building complex to her once when we drove by it though.
How much do you have to pay per month for extra office space?$390, tax deductible. Much cheaper than hotels. And it's an office I can use for real business (I just did the other day).
I doubt he’s gonna be having blue balls in his 60s.You are correct. Alpha Male 2.0 about long-term happiness, not "happiness just in your 30s" or whatever.
Chris Stevenson 2018-09-18 11:25:24
most people do not realize how that office rental can save a guy from homelessness if things ever go bad financially. add in a cheap storage locker and health spa membership for bath facilities and one would probably not spend more than $450 even near a metro area. all one has to do is respect the building's other tenants and have a good relationship with its security. one of my agents did this years ago and loved the lifestyle and he had his own office to see clients who had no idea that his front room was also his bedroom. where could one rent so cheaply? this technique has been used by prostitutes for years and if you find a building that does not mind them, they will not mind you. several nice, but older buildings often have half baths in the individual office spaces. many buildings desperately need tenants as they compete with newer facilities. when i start to spin up location independent will do this to try out a few areas without committing to them. really glad that you have such a nice connection with PF. i had a similar with a person with good values, maturity and a strong work ethic and we just clicked. cannot place a price on when two people just do what they need to do to make the best effort at making things work. wishing you many great years together.
Blackdragon 2018-09-18 16:00:32
most people do not realize how that office rental can save a guy from homelessness if things ever go bad financially. add in a cheap storage locker and health spa membership for bath facilities and one would probably not spend more than $450 even near a metro area. all one has to do is respect the building’s other tenants and have a good relationship with its security. one of my agents did this years ago and loved the lifestyle and he had his own office to see clients who had no idea that his front room was also his bedroom. where could one rent so cheaply? this technique has been used by prostitutes for years and if you find a building that does not mind them, they will not mind you. several nice, but older buildings often have half baths in the individual office spaces. many buildings desperately need tenants as they compete with newer facilities. when i start to spin up location independent will do this to try out a few areas without committing to them.I 100% agree with everything you said. At one point I even considered renting an office in Hong Kong and using it as an apartment. (And I still may do this.) And yep, there's a fitness club right down around the corner from my office that offers day passes for $7 if I ever want to spend the night there and take a shower the next morning.
really glad that you have such a nice connection with PF. i had a similar with a person with good values, maturity and a strong work ethic and we just clicked. cannot place a price on when two people just do what they need to do to make the best effort at making things work. wishing you many great years together.Thank you. And yes, that's the main thing (or one of the main things); that both parties are willing to put in the work necessary. People not willing to put in the work should just live alone for the rest of their lives.
X 2018-09-19 18:59:25
And yes, that’s the main thing (or one of the main things); that both parties are willing to put in the work necessary.This sounds dangerously close to “relationship is a hard work”. No, it’s not. If it is, it is WRONG kind of relationship that must be stopped.
Blackdragon 2018-09-19 20:15:04
This sounds dangerously close to “relationship is a hard work”.That isn't what I said, nor what I believe.
If it is, it is WRONG kind of relationship that must be stopped.Correct, and I've said that exact thing publicly perhaps 20 times. What is also true is that live-in relationships require some level of work above and beyond non-live-in ones (much less so for an OLTR marriage but still some), and both parties in such a relationship must be prepared and willing to put in this work. Otherwise, the relationship should be terminated immediately, even if it's the right kind of relationship and even if both people are "good for each other" or whatever.
SabrinaK 2018-09-20 05:33:27
I want to preface my comment by saying, even as a woman (probably not your target audience), I very much enjoy reading your blog and appreciate your sharing of your very unique perspective on life, particularly in the dating sphere. I have read many of your articles and have couple questions if you don't mind: 1. You often say the most important thing in your life is pursuing happiness. I accept that, as that is my goal in life as well. With that said, your "happiness" seem to be largely based on your biological urges (bedding multiple women, reducing debt and increasing your assets to survive independently, increasing life expectancy, etc.). You seek to completely eliminate social aspects (or "social programming" in your terminology) to factor into your happiness scale. For many people (both genders), however, social recognition (being recognized and admired by their peers) is a big part of what makes them "happy." Human beings are social creatures after all, people *need* social recognition and acceptance to be happy, and that's where "social programming" comes from in the first place. This is probably where many readers of your blog find dissonance from your world view - "happiness" is by nature a very subjective thing, and is actually very dependent on SP for many people. Just wondering your perspective on this. 2. No disrespect to Pink Firefly, but I genuinely do not see an appeal for a woman to enter into an OLTR relationship with you, or any man is is a self proclaimed "Alpha 2.0". Even using your mainly "biological urges" worldview, women's key goal in her sexual relationship is to seek a man who would provide for her and her baby as long as possible. Getting into a conventional monogamous marriage with a man (who is anything but an Alpha 2.0) who will happily provide for the family (without all your pesky prenups, non-discreet/open relationship with the side chicks) as long as I keep him happy is a far superior way to achieve that goal, than to try to get into OLTR with an Alpha 2.0. I can see an appeal of keeping an Alpha 2.0 as a FB, but not an OLTR - I want my husband to at least have an illusion of a permanent relationship with me. Can you provide a rational explanation of how a woman benefits from an OLTR with you?
Antekirtt 2018-09-20 09:34:38
@SabrinaK: why do you feel threatened by prenups? Sounds like you're actually just as cynical as you're implying BD to be: you know love eventually fades and that people in a divorce can be completely unscrupulous and pitiless to each other, and knowing that courts are often biased against men in such matters you don't want a prenup to mitigate your advantage. As for the reason a woman would enter an OLTR, here's one: men who will comply to the demands you listed will eventually bore you to tears with their compliance, and you know this. Isn't this why you want to avoid the prenup in the first place? You want the illusion of permanence, but deep down you know it'll end and you want all the cards to be in your hands when that happens. How about a tradeoff: alphas are a lot less boring BUT they will occasionally frustrate you with their lack of compliance.
Blackdragon 2018-09-20 10:36:31
your “happiness” seem to be largely based on your biological urges (bedding multiple women, reducing debt and increasing your assets to survive independently, increasing life expectancy, etc.).So do you. If I put a gun to your head and restrict you from ever urinating, would that make you happy or unhappy? Yes, biology, sadly, does play a factor in long-term happiness, and needs to. I don't like it any more than you do, but if you have a problem with that, you need to talk to god or nature, not me. I didn't design this system, I'm just stuck with it.
Human beings are social creatures after all, people *need* social recognition and acceptance to be happy,Correct. I address that in great detail in my book in Chapter Five - The Six Societal Values. If you want answers regarding that, get my book (it's only $7 for the ebook version) and read that chapter. I answer all of your questions there. Also remember that as a woman, you are more concerned about what everyone thinks about you than a man is (statistically speaking) and my core audience here is men.
No disrespect to Pink Firefly, but I genuinely do not see an appeal for a woman to enter into an OLTR relationship with you, or any man is is a self proclaimed “Alpha 2.0”.Oh, let me count the benefits she receives by being with me, just off the top of my head: 1. Having a successful and extremely financially stable husband. 2. Having a husband who has zero or near-zero stress at all times. 3. Having a husband who lives a great and happy life (travel, etc). 4. Having a husband who almost literally never tells her what to do. 5. Being free to do whatever she wants in her personal life without her husband interfering or complaining, ever. 6. Having a husband who virtually never gives her drama and literally never raises his voice at her in anger. I could go on, and on, and on, but I'm getting tired of typing. I'm one of the best husbands a woman could find despite the two negatives you don't like about me sleeping with FBs on the side and there being financial protection for the money I worked so hard for my entire life.
women’s key goal in her sexual relationship is to seek a man who would provide for her and her baby as long as possible1. PF doesn't want any children. 2. Being with PF for as long as possible is precisely my goal.
(without all your pesky prenups, non-discreet/open relationship with the side chicks)Those things have literally nothing to do with providing for a wife or children. And feel free to explain to me why it's a good idea for a man to legally marry a woman who has far less money than him and not make her sign an enforceable prenup or take similar financial precautions in a society with 70%+ divorce rates. I can't wait to hear your logic on this.
Giorgio 2018-09-21 02:11:39
Black Dragon, the type of commentary your providing is excellent, and your correct. I cannot find anyone else writing (especially as open as you are) about an open marriage in detail. Thank you, you raise the vibration of this world and do humanity a favor!
SabrinaK 2018-09-21 11:31:21
@Antekirtt: @Blackdragon: You’re correct, I do not believe in everlasting love (or what the American society seem to think what “love” is. I was raised in a different culture where love is defined in a more familial sense than in a sexual sense). With that said, I believe in commitment (and in family). You’re also correct, preups are not advantageous to a woman whose biological urges dictate to find a partner who will provide for her and her child long term (just as a man’s biological urges dictate a man to bed as many women as possible - this blog advocates a lifestyle that satisfy this). As a woman, you want divorce/breaking up with you as difficult as possible for a man. Which begs my question what appeal OLTR model has for women: It is absolutely rational for a woman to reject the “OLTR marriage model” especially when a traditional marriage is still a norm and a viable option for many women. Again, Alpha 2.0 guy may appeal to women who pursue short term happiness - i.e. fun sex. But a rational women who seek long term happiness (esp the ones who prioritized looks over her earning powers in her eary 20s to “make life easier,” which is BD’s advice to his daughter) will prefer a man with “Guy Disney” who will sign up to provide for her and her baby long term than a Alpha 2.0 who consistently voices his disillusionment and wants to get bullproof backup plan to make sure nothing in his life is bothered once you go through a breakup. (Also, being successful and financially secure is not a trait only the “Alpha 2.0” has.) It is ideal for *both* men and womenp to seek some Disney in their partners (I remember BD saying he is highly compatible with women with high femininity and high level of “Disney”) - you see, “social programming” is part of evolution too.
Antekirtt 2018-09-21 12:23:58
@SabrinaK: I think you're misunderstanding what Alpha 2.0 is about, especially obvious when you assumed the blog advocated "fucking as many women as possible" and "short term fun". That's grotesque even as strawmanning goes. Also bear in mind a relationship with an Alpha 2.0 doesn't need to be a "good deal" for women in general: if his persona appeals to even 3% of women, he's gonna find some and date them. "Women won't be attracted to OLTRs" can't be an absolute claim; as long as the man has a target market, he's fine. And there is one. I'll also repeat my other point: uncompliant alphas are just attractive. When you're infatuated, you're more willing to accept tradeoffs. An OLTR is already a tradeoff to a man, he's compromising a little.
SabrinaK 2018-09-21 13:01:02
@Antekirtt: Hmm. Both the concept of a man wanting to fuck a lot of women, or a woman at times wanting short term fun with men are not grosteque to me at all. If anything both desires are very normal and acceptable to me. I do agree my understanding of Alpha 2.0 lifestyle is likely not complete, as this blog is geared towards men and I did not (and likely will not) read all blog posts. I enjoy reading BD as I am also an individualist (not as extreme as BD, as I simply accept some social recognition (SP) dictates my happiness along with my biological urges and factor those in my life choices), and also pursue long-term happiness. I was making the case that being an “OLTR partner” to an Alpha 2.0 will not overall make a woman long-term happy. And that’s fine - that’s simply a choice many women won’t make. Clearly BD found his woman who makes him happy, and good for him.
Blackdragon 2018-09-21 21:23:33
It is absolutely rational for a woman to reject the “OLTR marriage model” especially when a traditional marriage is still a norm and a viable option for many women.But traditional marriage doesn't work anymore. Data: https://blackdragonblog.com/2014/07/13/divorce-statistics/ https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/08/15/often-people-cheat-real-stats/ https://blackdragonblog.com/2015/11/16/what-life-long-marriage-really-looks-like/ Therefore, it is not rational... ... with one exception: the woman who wants traditional marriage and secretly plans on divorcing her husband someday so she can cash in on a nice, big payday whenever she gets bored with him and/or feels she no longer needs him to support her or her children. Yeah, she's being rational. Evil, deceptive, and a disgusting piece of shit, but certainly rational.
Again, Alpha 2.0 guy may appeal to women who pursue short term happiness – i.e. fun sex.If you seriously believe that sentence, then one of three things are true: 1) you really haven't read my material, 2) you have read it, but your reading comprehension is dreadful and you don't at all understand what you've read, or 3) you're lying. You also completely ignored my first comment response to you when I laid out all the reasons why a woman would want to marry an Alpha 2.0 under an OLTR marriage. So if you're not going to read my responses (or ignore them and proceed with your argument as if I didn't write them), then I think we're done here.
SabrinaK 2018-09-22 00:58:02
@BlackDragon Hmm, actually what I think is ideal for a woman is just a traditional marriage where monogamy is assumed, but both parties will simply cheat discreetly. Only if my husband don’t provide me with enough sex (which may be a possibility as I have a high sex drive and men’s sex drive tend to decline over time) will I consider cheating. I may acquire a lover (ideally Alpha 2.0!) but I will never get caught. If my husband cheats, I’ll make so huge a drama he will think twice about doing it again, or even preferably, he will be smart enough for me to never find out. If he falls in love with one of the side women and decide to end the relationship, I want to make it as difficult as possible for him to exit - again, a woman’s biological urges dictate to find a mate who will be around to provide as long as possible for me and my children. It’s not just the money I need - I want one man for my entire life for a lifetime companionship with long history of two of us together. As I said, I believe “love” is temporary, but “commitment” to a life partner can be permanent. I’m not sure what is factually incorrect about my statement that Alpha 2.0 is appealing to women who want happiness and fun in the short-term. You provide good sex (or at least you seem to try) and no drama - that’s exactly what I want from my “FB”. On your list of why Alpha 2.0 makes “one of the best husbands you’ll ever find”: (1) Success and financial security are not traits only Alpha 2.0 have. If anything, men with a bit of insecurity tend to be more hardworking and ambitious to compensate for whatever insecurity they have, and thus more financially secure. (2) Constant stress in a man is bad, I’ll tell you that. But most men (who are “thinkers” than “feelers” on an emotional scale) I’ve been with knew how to control their stress level to a reasonable degree and they did not start talking about how they did not believe in monogamy and traditional marriage, etc. (3) Traditional couples travel all the time, if that is what you mean by “great and happy life”. My mom and dad, happily married for 30 years and counting, travel together at least once a month. (4) (5) (6) A ton of women love being told what to do, so that is not a concern for many women. I personally hate being told what to do - all I need is to find a “beta” man, all my long term relationships were with these men. I was never told what to do, and these guys never gave me drama of any kind. Did I get bored? Sometimes. But I get bored with everyone. Did I get bored enough to want to cheat and find a new man? Never. As long as the guy has a sense of humor I do not mind boredom. The only reasons I left my last two boyfriends were because I was moving countries for new degrees/new jobs which I deemed more important than sustaining these relationships. I simply can’t do long distance - my sex drive is too high. Again, a woman’s biological urges dictate to find a provider for her and her children long term. Biologically, the father of my child has the most incentive to do so. Ideally, I want to pair bond with the father, and make it as difficult as possible for him to leave me when my attractiveness decline (or he is “fed up” with my “drama” which I am prone to throw at times). A woman will be reasonably hot until 40 or so, but won’t be able to rely on her looks to find a quality man as easily after that - a woman is not rational for allowing a man to exit the relationship without a price when she has wasted her eligible years. A woman’s ideal partner for her long term happiness is a guy with some “Guy Disney” who does not want to lose her, who has an incentive not to leave her when shits hit the fan, and who still has shame in cheating (even if he succumbs to it). I actually found an article you wrote some time ago where you claim women are incapable of long term consistent happiness (as a response to if you will encourage your daughter to enter into an OLTR arrangement). https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/03/21/answers-personal-questions-life/ I assume you actually don’t care for your OLTR partner’s long term consistent happiness (which is fine, she is responsible for her happiness) - you don’t think it’s possible for a woman. Since long term consistent happiness is my personal goal in life, I will try to keep making my life choices to the best of my ability to achieve it.
Blackdragon 2018-09-22 09:06:03
actually what I think is ideal for a woman is just a traditional marriage where monogamy is assumed, but both parties will simply cheat discreetly.Read this.
If my husband cheats, I’ll make so huge a drama he will think twice about doing it again, or even preferably, he will be smart enough for me to never find out. If he falls in love with one of the side women and decide to end the relationship, I want to make it as difficult as possible for him to exitSounds wonderful. Jesus. Looks like you're European.
(1) Success and financial security are not traits only Alpha 2.0 haveIrrelevant.
(2) Constant stress in a man is badI know.
(3) Traditional couples travel all the time1. No they don't, and if they do, it's like once a year at best. 2. I'm not just talking about travel.
(4) (5) (6) A ton of women love being told what to doNot most. Most women are Dominants like you. And even the Submissives get tired of it over time.
Since long term consistent happiness is my personal goal in lifeIt is not, since you are pro-drama and pro-cheating. You're very confused.