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The 7 Skills You Must Master for Nonmonogamous Relationships
A while back I published an article here called The 5 Skills You Must Master for Online Dating. It was a very popular article, and a lot of you liked the format. Today I’ll do this for maintaining long-term, low-drama, nonmonogamous relationships. For those of you who don’t know, anything you want to master in your life can be distilled down to 5-7 key skills. Once you get these skills down, you will have mastered that area. If you can break down what you want to accomplish into those 5-7 skills, it makes things much easier since you’ll know exactly where to focus your time and energy.
-By Caleb Jones
1. Emotional Control Long-term, low-drama relationships with women are not possible if you don’t know how to manage your own emotions first. If you get jealous if she talks to another guy, if you fly off the handle when she says something you don’t like, if you fall head-over-heels in love with her because she’s Not Like The Rest™, if you get angry if she insults you, all of these things are going to completely fuck up your ability to maintain the relationship with her in a long-term enjoyable way. You must learn how to be self-aware. You must learn how to be mindful of your own emotions, identify them when they occur, and manage them. You need to learn how to calm down. You need to stop giving a shit. (More on that last one in a minute.) You need to remember that there are literally thousands of other hot girls in your city besides her and that she’s not the only one. You need to remember that she’s a woman, and thus she often doesn’t mean what she says and can say things that make no logical sense. You must always remember the big picture. That is, that this relationship isn’t about her, it’s about your long-term happiness. She’s there to serve your long-term happiness, or else she shouldn’t be there. Of course that doesn’t mean you can be a selfish asshole either, since that also won’t work. It means that you need to take the focus off of her and every little thing she says or does, and place it where it belongs, on your life, your goals, and your Mission.Emotional control is not only critical to nonmonogamous relationships, but it’s also a core trait to long-term happiness and Alpha 2.0. Let beta males wallow in oneitis and fear. Let the Alpha Male 1.0s get angry at everything. You have better areas to focus on.
2. Managing The First Three Months Guys who do monogamy can just start dating a girl and doing whatever they feel like or whatever society tells them they “should” do. But the nonmonogamous man doesn’t have that luxury. Instead, you must follow a very specific system during the first three months, carefully moving her, one step at a time, from her monogamous world full of rules, limits, risk, and arguments, to the nonmonogamy world where you can remain a free man and have sex with whomever you want even if you're in a relationship with someone special.I describe this step-by-step process in great detail in The Ultimate Open Relationships Manual. You must take her through four phases at certain key points. This way, you can take any woman who is accustomed to normal, monogamous relationships and acclimate her to accept your new, nonmonogamous dating style. This three-month process is a skill that you must practice and get good at. If you’re not good at this, then the best you can hope for is to stumble through quasi-nonmonogamous flings that last just a month or two before she gets upset and leaves you.
3. Categorization This means you understand which women qualify for FB, MLTR, or OLTR relationships and which ones do not. You need to develop a system (and a feel) for which women are only good for causal relationships, which ones are good for dating but not something to the level of girlfriend (or OLTR in the nonmono world), and those very few who qualify for something serious, as in girlfriend or wife. This is my version of “screening,” as I described here. The Alpha Male 2.0 model does not involve any screening beyond physical appearance and drama levels. If she’s attractive to you and she’s nice to you, she’s in; nothing else matters. Her upbringing, lifestyle, intelligence, race, education, family history, religion, outlook on life, and so on are completely irrelevant. If she’s a lower quality woman, that’s fine; she’s an FB and that’s it. If she’s of higher quality, then, and only then, she’s an MLTR or possibly a candidate for OLTR. Most men don’t understand how to categorize women and relationships this way. They treat all women they have sex with the same. Players treat them all like casual FBs, betas treat them all like girlfriends or close to it. Both of these methods are a recipe for problems. A lot of other guys know how to do this, but lack the emotional control to actually follow through on it. These would be the men who get serious (i.e. something beyond FB) with attractive but clearly problematic women when they know damn well they shouldn’t. Failure to get good at categorizing means you’re going to have a lot of drama and problems in your relationships and your relationships won’t last as long as they otherwise would.
5. Sexual Skills The guy who does nothing but one-night-stands and the typical monogamy guy can just whip his clothes off, mount a woman, pump pumpity pump, cum, roll off of her, and be done. But the guy who wants long-term, low-drama relationships with multiple women at the same time needs to actually make women feel good during sex, and do so every time they have sex. If you don’t do this, women will bail on you fast. Asking her to be cool while you go have sex with other women is a lot to ask of a girl. It’s a direct assault on her Societal Programming, ASD, and Disney. However, if you fuck her the way she loves and make her orgasm like crazy every time you have sex, she’ll A) stick around even if you’re having sex with other women, B) quickly return to you if she ever leaves you for other reasons, and C) won’t be nearly as dramatic or demanding of you. This has been extensively field-tested by me and lots of other men who have done this. Making a woman feel really good sexually is very powerful in ways most men don’t understand (namely because so many men are bad in bed; women become accustomed to it). This means you need to learn how to A) make women feel good in bed and B) communicate with women to understand what makes them feel good individually, since all women are different.
6. Outcome Independence Outcome independence is a requirement for all Alpha Male 2.0 lifestyle aspects of course, from dating, to relationships, to location-independent entrepreneurship, and so on. But it’s absolutely core to maintaining nonmono relationships. Without outcome independence, you will do things like: Get oneitis Fall into She’s Not Like The Rest™ traps Get angry and/or reactive when she does things you don’t like Get jealous (even if she’s not fucking other guys!) Get depressed and/or needy if/when she LSNFTEs you Fall into her frame more often Have drama and arguments more often All of these things will severely damage your relationships, as well as reduce your return rate for if/when she leaves you. Stop giving a shit. So much of success and happiness in life is about not giving a fuck. The more you give a fuck, the more power she has over you. As the old saying goes, and it’s right, the one who cares the least has the most amount of power. Moreover, the one who cares the least produces the most attraction in the other.
7. Drama Management Nonmonogamous Alpha 2.0s have far less drama than men in normal monogamous relationships, and by wide margins. Yet, women are still women, so occasional drama will still occur in MLTRs and an OLTR no matter how good you are. A core relationship skill is to not only reduce the odds of drama occurring, but to know exactly what to do when drama occurs so that the drama itself, the damage it causes to the relationship, and the damage it causes to her level of attraction is all minimized. The Ultimate Open Relationships Manual covers all of these seven skills, and you can also go through the vast archive of this blog for more information. I’m coming to a town near you in 2019 to do the least expensive Alpha Male 2.0 seminar I’ve ever done. I’ll be in 18 different cities in the USA, Australia, Canada, and Europe. If you want to come to a low-cost seminar to learn how to improve your financial and woman life, click HERE and get your tickets! The next cities coming up are Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Chicago! Alpha Male 2.0 World Tour 2019
Want over 35 hours of how-to podcasts on how to improve your woman life and financial life? Want to be able to coach with me twice a month? Want access to hours of technique-based video and audio? The SMIC Program is a monthly podcast and coaching program where you get access to massive amounts of exclusive, members-only Alpha 2.0 content as soon as you sign up, and you can cancel whenever you want. Click here for the details.
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marty 2019-02-28 05:35:58
After all the Krauser bullshit on the last post, I can't believe this is your next blog. There is more value in this one post than 90% of the rest of the content on the manosphere combined. Your ability to succinctly articulate the most important things a guy needs to know about dealing with women is second to none. I honestly think you are losing touch with just how profound your insights are. There is no one talking at this level anywhere! So are us guys who are following you. This post makes perfect sense to me. And I've lived it so I know how well it works. But I think from my discussions with other guys not familiar with your work, it is very hard for most guys to actually understand the depth of what you are saying here. It seems simple and it really is. But with the depth of social programming that most guys have. This is some next level shit for most guys! 🙂 Thanks! Your stuff is unique and amazing!
Adam 2019-02-28 06:56:20
I'm a religious guy who uses your tips to manage my relationship and I'm thankful for your insights even if we come from different worlds. I'd say these management skills are useful for guys like me who likes monogamy but tries to make it works with psychology's help. Men should learn more about females before trying to get one.
GoodSense3 2019-02-28 07:41:34
BD will your seminars in Cali this weekend be poppin? Have any women attended and asked questions this yr at your seminars or only men? How many u estimate will show up at your la and sf seminars this weekend?
Phil 2019-02-28 08:39:39
..About #6: I still don't really understand or comprehend the outcome independence thing, because if a guy truly doesn't give a shit, then he wouldn't bother with women in the first place, right ??? This actually applies to most things in life, if a guy doesn't give a crap about anything then he probably won't bother to improve himself at all. It's funny coming from me, because I've gone my whole life never feeling or wanting to get intimate/sex/dating at all (it all just seemed like too much of a pain-in-the-ass to deal with) but as I'm getting older, I've felt it would be kinda nice to see what its like to be intimate/have sex... and so I bought tried my best with BD's online dating book advice trying out 7 different dating sites having the best pictures of myself ever taken blah blah...and sure enough I was right when I thought earlier in my life that it's too much of a pain to deal with these stuck-up bitches online because sure enough I've barely gotten a response from online dating after 9 months being online let alone dates/sex (after I've sent hundreds/hundreds of messages,swipes,ect). So while I agree that guys shouldn't be needy, the question I'm left after all this is: Is a guy supposed to continue to bullshit himself trying to be happy/outcome independent while going through his whole life never getting the actually results he wants ?
Capitalist 2019-02-28 08:45:40
Regarding emotional control and outcome independence: When things are going well with my business both of those are easy for me and I enjoy being so in control of my emotions and easily maintain a abundance mentality. I feel unshakeable and damn near emotionally indestructible. And things go very well with women for me when I'm like that. Seems like life is nearly perfect during the longer stretches of time when I am easily maintaining that mindset. It even becomes like that's how I am naturally am now. The problem for me is as soon as things aren't going as well with the business and challenges come with that part of my life and I start stressing about money and my future etc that seems to carry over into my mood and my outlook with every other part of my life. I then have to fake my frame during these periods - I still feel confidence because I like myself and in a way I don't give a shit. But just over all too emotional inside. Like I don't give a shit but it's like a depression type "I don't give a shit". And my emotional control gets weak and then I get my feelings hurt over stupid shit that normally would not bother me (yes, due to feeling insecure inside I'm sure). I don't complain or talk to women or anyone else about my business or any of this. So from the outside I probably just look less happy than usual and perhaps less fun than usual but still in control. But internally my happiness plummets. It's hard to get momentum again to get excited about work. Maybe I'm bored with my Industry I don't know. Then at some point I'm usually able to get excited about a new idea with my business or a new business and I am back to myself again. I guess that means I need to kick it up a notch at work so I can retire if I want. But that's hard to do when I'm in this "I don't give a shit" mental state. I'm 47 BTW.
CTV 2019-02-28 09:30:22
Avoiding Oneitis is probably one of the Cornerstones.. A fundamental often overlooked.. Millions of men in agony over this in all 3 Categories of Men.
Blackdragon 2019-02-28 10:07:17
Avoiding Oneitis is probably one of the Cornerstones.. A fundamental often overlooked..Avoiding oneitis is the MOST important thing, more than anything I've talked about in the article, but I don't consider that a "skill." That more of a developed trait and a result of your overall lifestyle. But I could be wrong about that. Perhaps one could argue it is a skill. Oneitis management is also a subset of Emotional Control, which is item #1 in my list.
The problem for me is as soon as things aren’t going as well with the business and challenges come with that part of my life and I start stressing about money and my future etc that seems to carry over into my mood and my outlook with every other part of my life.Very normal and natural. That's when you need to focus back on your long-term goals, your Mission (if you have one) and your big whys in life. When everything is going to shit is when these things are the most important.
TonyOutOfNowhere 2019-02-28 10:18:36
Hey BD, I know you are a less emotional guy so this might not be a problem for you, but for us more emotional ones, I want to ask you this: how can I know if my actions towards a woman are motivated by real love, or if they are motivated by oneitis? Because, as you said, oneitis is about action, I want to minimize that, but rejecting to do things out of real, deep love - just out of fear - is stupid to me, and might damage my relationships.
Blackdragon 2019-02-28 11:08:02
I know you are a less emotional guy so this might not be a problem for you, but for us more emotional ones, I want to ask you this: how can I know if my actions towards a woman are motivated by real love, or if they are motivated by oneitis?There are many ways, but the easiest is to ask yourself this question: How would I feel in three months if this woman suddenly dumped me tomorrow and I never saw her ever again? If you think you'd be really unhappy or miserable, you probably have oneitis.
Because, as you said, oneitis is about action, I want to minimize that, but rejecting to do things out of real, deep love – just out of fear – is stupid to me, and might damage my relationships.If you love a woman but can "afford" to lose her forever, then you should show all the love you feel. If you're afraid to lose her, now you need to stop and look in the mirror (and look inward) and deal with some likely oneitis, starting here. I tell PF that I love her all the time. I've told her stuff like she's beautiful, wonderful, and so on. And I do love her, more than I have ever loved. She's a dream come true for me and I mean that. She's ridiculously important to me. AND if she vanished out of my life tomorrow, my amazing life would continue. My happiness would continue. My life is bigger than her. It always will be. That's how to love without having oneitis. Love yourself first, her second. (A close second, but still second.)
CTV 2019-02-28 11:18:36
Also a skill/trait of lifestyle we can probably add to Point #1 Emotional Control is also knowing what is Beyond Your Control. There is a huge difference that these so called Alpha 1.0's don't get is when you LIKE TO BE/DESIRE to be in Control versus NEED TO BE in Control. Because when you need to control is when the neediness, drama, oneitis shit comes in. BD I'd argue that we really need stop calling Alpha 1.0's.. Alphas at all for the fact that I feel that when we call them Alpha we give them licence to continue or even escalate that Controlling and Manipulative Behavior that is abusive in many instances (when done without consent). BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING, AND NEED BE HEARD AND NEED TO SET HER STRAIGHT! LOL! Just my Opinion. Versus the Alpha 2.0 outlook.. We like to be/desire to be in control but we know that we can't control or force anyone to really do anything. Which is why we maintain our power and control over OURSELVES.
Anon 2019-02-28 11:42:04
Speaking of control, for me one of the most important things BD ever said is this: http://www.sublimeyourtime.com/2014/11/09/zone-control/
Axel 2019-02-28 11:44:12
My Outcome independence/Emotional control depends on: 1. Executing my goals consitstently 2. My health/Energy levels Have these two nailed and I'm a beast. Knowing my mission, and planning my goals has helped me a lot with women recently. They're my "Fortress of Fucking Solitude" to quote the gambler.
Axel 2019-02-28 11:53:43
If you’re afraid to lose her, now you need to stop and look in the mirror (and look inward) and deal with some likely oneitis Love yourself first, her secondTHIS. Recenter yourself and the clarity comes. Make your needs a priority and your woman life falls into place.
asdf 2019-02-28 12:45:59
causal should be casual
SM 2019-02-28 13:37:54
Caleb, Sometimes I wonder if your brain is just wired differently when it comes to oneitis. I was dating a woman back in October and developed feelings for her pretty hard. Technically, though, according to you it wasn't oneitis since oneitis is about *action* and I nipped it in the bud before I could engage in any oneitis behaviors. Long story short, we had sex once, but the next two times we hung out she wouldn't have sex because she wanted to be exclusive. I told her that I couldn't do that and it seemed we were just incompatible, despite our feelings for each other. She agreed and we went our separate ways. I haven't contacted her in any way, shape, or form in four months. I fucked 3 other equally-hot women within a month after breaking up with her too. But while fucking the other women, I still find myself pining over the girl I broke things off with. It's frustrating because I know I would have to make some major sacrifices in order to continue seeing her, but my brain keeps urging me to get back together with her. I might wait another 2+ months to re-initiate contact and see what happens, but the crux of the issue is that it almost feels like as a man, I can never develop strong feelings for a woman because the moment I do that, I lose my edge in the relationship. I just can't really comprehend how my brain can genuinely be both in love and outcome independent at the same time, as those two states of mind seem to be mutually exclusive to me. Have you ever experienced limerence like this? Like I said, maybe our brains are just wired differently; maybe NRE/oneitis is my kryptonite similar to how food seems to be yours.
Duke 2019-02-28 13:56:56
I just can’t really comprehend how my brain can genuinely be both in love and outcome independent at the same time, as those two states of mind seem to be mutually exclusive to me.Maybe try having a mission? Also, an alternate strategy, but might seem kinda sketch to you. Tell her that you'll try monogamy, then after a while say that you tried your best, but that lifestyle isn't compatible with who you are (plus you never achieved lock down by having sex with her twice). She'll probably say it won't fly, but in the back of her head she already knows who you are, but she can't bring herself to verbally agree with it. Now she'll tolerate it, which is what most women who accept non-monogamy do, and there you go. If you have any experience with non-monogamy you know that women never happily accept it anyway.
CrabRangoon 2019-02-28 14:03:06
So true that avoiding Oneitis is key to a better life in general. SO many guys flush their lives down the toilet over some girl, I've seen it too many times. Guys move to a city they don't want to live in for a girl, marry a girl when they don't want to be married, stop pursuing their passions or stop hanging with their friends. Now your point "B) not hate the thing you want." is where I sometimes struggle since getting more attuned to female nature. I just have to remember most of them aren't intentionally trying to fuck you over or cause stress, it's just how they're wired. I just don't take them too seriously an move on with my day.
SM 2019-02-28 14:05:25
Maybe try having a mission?I've got a busy/full life with lots of projects and goals aligned with my mission... so the fact that I managed to irrationally fall so hard for a girl that I barely knew and was barely compatible with makes me wonder what's wrong. Judging by how Caleb writes, it seems like he just doesn't experience as much intense, almost-irresistible pleasure from NRE as I do; similar to how Caleb gets intense pleasure out of eating, whereas I struggle to eat enough food to maintain a bulk. My goals, hobbies, and Mission bring me deep fulfillment and happiness-- but they suddenly take a backseat when I develop NRE. I'm also pretty high on the empathy scale whereas Caleb seems to be pretty low. That might also play a role.
TonyOutOfNowhere 2019-02-28 14:37:31
AND if she vanished out of my life tomorrow, my amazing life would continue. My happiness would continue. My life is bigger than her. It always will be.This, to me, is how you love without all the societal programming bullshit. Thank you BD! A litlle off-topic, but do you think that PF will bounce back to you, if/when she goes away? Do you think that more serious relationships have a higher probability of continuing after a "break-up"/ LSNFTE? I would love to hear your stats.
Anon 2019-02-28 15:05:53
Long story short, we had sex once, but the next two times we hung out she wouldn’t have sex because she wanted to be exclusive.I'm curious how can this ever happen. Were you following the two-date model or a different approach?
SM 2019-02-28 15:17:50
I’m curious how can this ever happen. Were you following the two-date model or a different approach?Lol same, which is sort of my point. Sex happened on the 3rd date. About 4 hours meet-to-lay total, $30 spent.
Anon 2019-02-28 15:34:42
Sounds perfectly normal, except the exclusivity demand part. How did that surface?
Buzz 2019-02-28 15:43:41
"Stop giving a shit. So much of success and happiness in life is about not giving a fuck." Most of the time I don't give a fuck. I seem to have a real problem when I work on something (whether that is a woman, or a job, or some other goal) hard for a long time and it seems like I got it (in the case of a woman she is at my place in my bed naked and already said she wants to do it) and then somehow it gets taken away from me and I just fly into a rage and destroy any chance of saving the situation, I start giving a very big fuck!!!!! How do I stop that?
SM 2019-02-28 15:50:25
Sounds perfectly normal, except the exclusivity demand part. How did that surface?We had sex on the 3rd date. On the 4th date, we went out but then she wouldn't come back to my place because she had to get home, but said she would come over next time. She came over to my place for the 5th date, got half naked in my bed and I was sucking on her boobs, but she wouldn't go any further this time. She said she didn't want to just have casual sex, and only wanted to have sex with her boyfriend/future husband, and courtship leads to that. I told her that it's not fair to her to have casual sex with me if she only wants to do that with a boyfriend/husband, but it's also not fair for me to wait for sex indefinitely. I told her that it seemed like we were just incompatible and should go our separate ways. She agreed. That was four months ago, I haven't contacted her at all since. Despite sleeping with multiple hot women since then, the feelings are still there. I find myself second-guessing my decision to follow BD's advice-- I'm wondering if I would've been happier if I had made some compromises; if it would have been worth it. It makes me wonder if Caleb just has lower empathy than I do; such that compromising to make another person happy doesn't really make him happy. In my case, the other person's happiness usually justifies the compromise and makes me happy as well. Conversely, refusal to compromise can sometimes make me feel guilty and selfish, in ways which Caleb doesn't seem to experience.
Anon 2019-02-28 16:20:34
No, you wouldn't have been happier for sure. Women who are sexually attracted to men will go out of their way to have sex. They will groom themselves, will come to the man's place instead of insisting on going out, won't schedule the date on a day they have to return home early, won't stop sexual activity when it's underway. She just wasn't attracted is my best guess. Not to mention if demands start as early as the 4th date, they definitely aren't going to stop there. You could have made some compromises, in essence switching to the serial monogamy model, expecting her to leave anyway once her NRE wears off... wait, was there any NRE to begin with? Does not seem to match your description of her behavior. I'd bet she was a Dominant, or you gave off provider vibes, or both. BD says it just isn't going to work with a Dominant, I met some and I agree. Provider vibes, on the other hand, is something that's under your control. Also, whenever I encounter a pattern of behavior that I don't like, I ask myself, "Is it sustainable?" If a woman initially refuses sex but can be talked into it, is it sustainable to have to do that all the time? If she's making demands that can be dodged, is it sustainable to be dodging demands all the time? You won't change her, at best you can work around some of her peculiarities. Given the peculiarities of a particular woman, is it sustainable to routinely be working around those? At times it is, but if I find myself asking this question, the answer is usually no.
Duke 2019-02-28 16:33:03
I find myself second-guessing my decision to follow BD’s advice– I’m wondering if I would’ve been happier if I had made some compromises; if it would have been worth it. It makes me wonder if Caleb just has lower empathy than I do; such that compromising to make another person happy doesn’t really make him happy. In my case, the other person’s happiness usually justifies the compromise and makes me happy as well. Conversely, refusal to compromise can sometimes make me feel guilty and selfish, in ways which Caleb doesn’t seem to experience.Her sticking to her guns is not any different than you sticking to yours. Does that mean that she doesn't have any empathy? In any event, this seems like a no brainer. BD is not the be all end all of relationship advice. It works for him and lots of other men, but is not for everyone. Good luck with all of the potential downfalls that come with monogamy and succumbing to your oneitis though.
Anon 2019-02-28 16:33:42
It makes me wonder if Caleb just has lower empathy than I do; such that compromising to make another person happy doesn’t really make him happy. In my case, the other person’s happiness usually justifies the compromise and makes me happy as well. Conversely, refusal to compromise can sometimes make me feel guilty and selfish, in ways which Caleb doesn’t seem to experience.I feel you here. I used to feel discomfort whenever others suffered from solvable problems, and would go out of my way to try to help them. Time and time again they would refuse my advice, or thank me and do nothing, or let my actions directed to help them go to waste. Like I said above, I decided this was unsustainable. Now I'm doing pretty much the same Caleb's doing: offering help only to those who will in fact take action to benefit from it. (Well, he's also making some money at the same time, and money from someone who's going to disregard the entire content of a book is still money, but that's a different thing.) I do often think white-knightey thoughts like "I would have treated you with respect, and I would have been working to give you orgasms, why choose someone over me who, most likely, would have been inferior to me in most regards?!" But then I summarize, "Well, it's your loss" and don't fret much about it. I do fret a little though. About the same degree of fretting when someone I know does a stupid thing like buy something expensive and unnecessary. Again, this is essential: http://www.sublimeyourtime.com/2014/11/09/zone-control/
SM 2019-02-28 16:39:58
She just wasn’t attracted is my best guess.That's something I wrestled with-- it's hard to say, since in her company, she couldn't keep her hands off me, was always complimenting me, and telling me how much she liked me. She'd initiate foreplay as soon as we walked through the door to my place, but she just wouldn't go all the way to sex. Since she wouldn't go all the way to sex, it made me feel like she didn't desire me so that's part of the reason why I quit pursuing her. She was from Mexico, just visiting my city in the US temporarily. For all I know, she could be back home in Mexico now.
I’d bet she was a DominantNo, she was a submissive. She never gave me any demands; she just refused to have sex and compromise on her values. She probably had religious guilt about pre-marital sex.
You gave off provider vibesYes, I think I started giving off provider vibes after we had sex for the first time, mostly because it felt like the right thing to do. In my mind, I was thinking, "This girl's giving me what I want (sex), but I feel like I'm not giving her what she wants (romance). I really do like her and would like to be romantic, so I'll be romantic towards her."
Also, whenever I encounter a pattern of behavior that I don’t like, I ask myself, “Is it sustainable?”No, I don't believe it would've been sustainable, which is why I broke things off with her. But the point I'm trying to make here is that there's a tug-of-war going on inside my head, where rationally I understand that I probably made the correct decision, and I wouldn't be happy if I stayed with her. But at the same time, every day I have to resist the urge to re-initiate contact with her, even though I know it would be a bad idea. It's like Caleb knowing rationally he shouldn't indulge on his appetite, but his brain still keeps trying to get him to do so anyway.
Her sticking to her guns is not any different than you sticking to yours. Does that mean that she doesn’t have any empathy?I was thinking the same thing, which was what led me to initiate the breakup to begin with.
Good luck with all of the potential downfalls that come with monogamy and succumbing to your oneitis though.I know better than to get monogamous or to try and make things work with her. My point is that I felt like I was put into an emotional double-bind when choosing to break up with her.
I feel you here. I used to feel discomfort whenever others suffered from solvable problems, and would go out of my way to try to help them. Time and time again they would refuse my advice, or thank me and do nothing, or let my actions directed to help them go to waste. Like I said above, I decided this was unsustainable.In my mind, I was wondering if once I got her locked in, I'd be able to have sex consistently/sustainably. Or if I decided to compromise and try monogamy, we'd be having sex consistently/sustainably. Overall, though, like I said, I couldn't really see a long-term future with this girl. So IDK why my brain decided to develop NRE for her.
Anon 2019-02-28 16:49:10
My crystal ball appears to have given all the wrong divinations. I should demand a refund.
“This girl’s giving me what I want (sex), but I feel like I’m not giving her what she wants (romance)."Jack Outside The Box is banned, or he would have appeared with a screenful of text with many exclamation points. And he was damn good at it, when he wasn't busy counting Jews. Your mindset is completely wrong. This girl’s giving me what I want (vagina), therefore I should give her what she wants (penis)! End of story.
SM 2019-02-28 17:04:16
Your mindset is completely wrong. This girl’s giving me what I want (vagina), therefore I should give her what she wants (penis)! End of story.With previous FBs/MLTRs, that was the exchange; no romance or feelings-- just sex. But in this case, she wanted romance and I did too, unlike other with women. I didn't see the harm in being more romantic since it felt congruent. When she stopped giving me what I wanted (sex), that's when I realized I needed to break things off.
Anon 2019-02-28 17:14:49
I mean the transactional mindset "when she stopped giving me what I wanted (sex)" is the harmful thing. If one or both of you feel that sex is being traded for something, it won't ever result in a healthy MLTR relationship. As for romance, I'm not 100% sure but it seems correct to withhold such things even if you'd like to provide them. Let her feel she has to do the work to "get you out of your shell", that she has to "earn it".
CCMidwest 2019-02-28 17:29:04
Trying to make her happy... Here's the mindset issue IMO Realize giving her monogamy and "romance" wouldn't have made her happy anyway...even if she thinks it would (Temporary happiness at best) You would have been entering her frame (since she agreed y'all are incompatible if you don't) which would murder attraction. Not sure how that would of made her happy. I also fail to see how giving her what she asked for, knowing full well it would never work out, is being empathetic. Quite the opposite really.
X 2019-02-28 17:48:39
Jack Outside The Box is bannedIs it true? He was a bit of a nutcase but I always enjoyed his posts. Some of the stuff was very insightful.
SM 2019-02-28 17:49:44
I mean the transactional mindset “when she stopped giving me what I wanted (sex)” is the harmful thing. If one or both of you feel that sex is being traded for something, it won’t ever result in a healthy MLTR relationship.Is that not how Caleb perceives things and recommends perceiving things? What's the alternative?
As for romance, I’m not 100% sure but it seems correct to withhold such things even if you’d like to provide them. Let her feel she has to do the work to “get you out of your shell”, that she has to “earn it”.I understand what you're saying, but the outcome seems paradoxical. If she wants me to be more romantic, but I don't want to be more romantic, then it's a no-brainer for me that I should withhold romance. By withholding romance, she'll either LSNFTE me and return later, or she'll become even more attracted/invested. It's a win-win for me. But if I also want to be more romantic, this is where problems seem to arise. If I choose to act on my desires to be more romantic, then it feels good for me. But it seems Caleb would argue that I'm murdering her attraction in the long run. So knowing that, if I choose to remain stoic/level-headed and resist the urge to be more romantic, then she'll either LSNFTE me for a guy who chooses to be romantic, or she'll invest more, trying to get me to be romantic... only to lose attraction once I finally decide to become romantic. So it feels like choosing to be romantic is incompatible with Caleb's system.
I also fail to see how giving her what she asked for, knowing full well it would never work out, is being empathetic. Quite the opposite really.I don't know full well that it would never work out, though. But I assumed that it wouldn't, which is why I chose to quit pursuing her. I didn't see the harm in giving her romance since we both wanted it. But I did see the harm in giving her exclusivity, so I didn't give her that.
Anon 2019-02-28 18:06:37
So knowing that, if I choose to remain stoic/level-headed and resist the urge to be more romantic, then she’ll either LSNFTE me for a guy who chooses to be romantic, or she’ll invest more, trying to get me to be romantic… only to lose attraction once I finally decide to become romantic.Well, isn't it what item 4 in the article is all about? Be congruent. She's new, you withhold romance. She's MLTR material, you're romantic just a little bit. MLTR, more. High-end MLTR, even more. OLTR candidate, you're almost as romantic as you can be. By the way, try withholding small things and denying small requests, even when you'd gladly do whatever was asked. It's fascinating to see the outcome.
Is it true? He was a bit of a nutcase but I always enjoyed his posts. Some of the stuff was very insightful.I also did, and he helped me much. However, he has hardly been doing anything but repeating himself lately. His disagreement with BD on the subject of sugar babies made him lash out at PF, which was the final straw, at least that's how I understand the motives of everyone involved.
SM 2019-02-28 18:27:54
Well, isn’t it what item 4 in the article is all about? Be congruent. She’s new, you withhold romance. She’s MLTR material, you’re romantic just a little bit. MLTR, more. High-end MLTR, even more. OLTR candidate, you’re almost as romantic as you can be. By the way, try withholding small things and denying small requests, even when you’d gladly do whatever was asked. It’s fascinating to see the outcome.I agree with what you’re saying— my point is, what happens when you develop strong romantic feelings abruptly? How long do you wait to indulge on your romantic feelings? What happens if you want her to be an MLTR but she just wants to be an FB? I have Caleb’s relationships book and IIRC he just says to categorize her ASAP and then treat her accordingly, which is what I thought I was doing.
Anon 2019-02-28 18:48:56
What happens if you want her to be an MLTR but she just wants to be an FB?I'm pretty sure cuddling and romancing someone who isn't interested in that is even worse than if she's interested. In general, when you'd prefer people to do something, just indicate that the door is open and don't force them.
Blackdragon 2019-02-28 18:51:55
Sometimes I wonder if your brain is just wired differently when it comes to oneitis.We all have different personality types, and those with more emotional personality types will be more susceptible to oneitis than those are who are more rational/logical. Yep, I've said that many times. I have a much less emotional personality than most so yes, I have an edge in not getting oneitis over certain other men. However, less emotional guys CAN and DO get oneitis all the time, so it's not a superpower. It just helps.
Long story short, we had sex once, but the next two times we hung out she wouldn’t have sex because she wanted to be exclusive.She was over age 33, right?
Have you ever experienced limerence like this?Have I ever had strong feelings for a woman after she left? Sure. Have these feelings ever damaged my overall happiness? Not really. And I get over them pretty quickly.
Like I said, maybe our brains are just wired differently; maybe NRE/oneitis is my kryptonite similar to how food seems to be yours.You have a different personality type than me. So of course. We all have our weaknesses. That doesn't mean we make excuses for our weaknesses. It means you keep banging on them until they get at least a little better (I've accomplished something with my eating habits that I have never accomplished before in my entire life, so things are looking really good there, because I kept working on it instead of making excuses or surrendering, but I'm not talking about it today; off-topic).
do you think that PF will bounce back to you, if/when she goes away?Yes. Odds for that would be extremely high.
Do you think that more serious relationships have a higher probability of continuing after a “break-up”/ LSNFTE? I would love to hear your stats.No. At least I have not seen any correlation. My return rates for pure FBs is very high, as are MLTRs, both serious and casual. So it's safe to say that return rates for all properly managed nonmonogamous relationships are very high. It's monogamy, and the frames you have to engage when when you are (or act like) a monogamous man that kill your return rates. 🙂
I just fly into a rage and destroy any chance of saving the situation, I start giving a very big fuck!!!!! How do I stop that?If you literally fly into rage? Seek therapy. Something's wrong at a deep-seated level.
I find myself second-guessing my decision to follow BD’s advice– I’m wondering if I would’ve been happier if I had made some compromises; if it would have been worth it.Happier in the short term, yes. But you would have received drama (and thus, unhappiness) sooner and faster than if using my system. If your response is that you don't care (and some guys really don't), then correct, you don't really follow my system as specifically stated.
It makes me wonder if Caleb just has lower empathy than I doAbsolutely. I am a much lower-empathy guy than is typical. That's actually one of the areas I'm seeking to improve (improving our weaknesses again!). That's also one of the reasons why I selected PF to share my life, to help me shore up that aspect of my personality. However, none of that changes what I just said above regarding drama and unhappiness coming sooner if you ignore my advice.
Conversely, refusal to compromise can sometimes make me feel guilty and selfish, in ways which Caleb doesn’t seem to experience.Because you're still dealing with residual Societal Programming and I am not. I used to feel a little guilty too before I cleaned that SP out.
BD is not the be all end all of relationship advice. It works for him and lots of other men, but is not for everyone.Correct. I'm only talking to about 10% of men here. Most other guys don't mind drama, conflict, anger, problems...
Good luck with all of the potential downfalls that come with monogamy and succumbing to your oneitis though.Exactly.
Buzz 2019-02-28 19:42:46
SM 2019-02-28 19:50:20
She was over age 33, right?No, she was only 25, but she was from Mexico, visiting the US for an indefinite amount of time. I think she had a religious upbringing which made her feel guilty about casual/premarital sex, but who knows.
Have I ever had strong feelings for a woman after she left? Sure. Have these feelings ever damaged my overall happiness? Not really. And I get over them pretty quickly.I think this is the key difference between us. I'll become abnormally sad/depressed and it will last for several months. Other women, my goals, and my Mission can help distract me from the sadness, but the sadness will still remain. The only cure seems to be time.
Happier in the short term, yes. But you would have received drama (and thus, unhappiness) sooner and faster than if using my system. If your response is that you don’t care (and some guys really don’t), then correct, you don’t really follow my system as specifically stated.To be clear, I'm not interested in monogamy. My point was that it feels like when I develop romantic feelings, it puts me into an emotional double-bind in ways which you don't have to worry about. I want to follow your system since rationally it seems like the best thing to do; however I'm still unhappy as I wait for the feelings to fade away. If I were to get monogamous to temporarily satisfy the feelings, it would only lead to unhappiness down the road like you said. In other words, I feel like I'm going to be unhappy regardless of which system I choose to follow; I'll just be unhappy for different reasons, and in different ways.
Absolutely. I am a much lower-empathy guy than is typical. That’s actually one of the areas I’m seeking to improve (improving our weaknesses again!). That’s also one of the reasons why I selected PF to share my life, to help me shore up that aspect of my personality.I wouldn't call it a weakness. There's pros and cons to having both high and low empathy. Overall, having high empathy is great-- it makes it very easy for me to read people and understand exactly what they're thinking/feeling. But sometimes ignorance is bliss, and I don't want to be around people who are unhappy or suffering, as it will make me unhappy and suffer too-- especially if I'm partially responsible for their unhappiness. In times like that, it would be nice to be desensitized to how they're feeling. After following your career advice back in like 2013, when I started working in sales I had issues closing sales because it felt uncomfortable putting clients on the spot, forcing them to give me a "yes" or a "no." Their discomfort was my discomfort. Eventually, though, I managed to desensitize myself to their discomfort and once that happened, I became one of the top salesmen in the company. Similarly, I used to be uncomfortable with kinoing women on the first date because I didn't want to creep them out or make them uncomfortable, but now it's second-nature to me. It seems I'll have to work on desensitizing myself when it comes to romance and NRE too, for my own good. Though unlike meeting with clients or women on first dates, romantic feelings tend to be a lot more rare and unpredictable, so consequently I'll have fewer opportunities to "practice." We'll see how it goes. Maybe I'm just better suited for serial monogamy. But hopefully not 🙂
Blackdragon 2019-02-28 20:14:14
No, she was only 25, but she was from Mexico, visiting the US for an indefinite amount of time. I think she had a religious upbringing which made her feel guilty about casual/premarital sex, but who knows.That was my very next guess: "Is she really religious?" If she was visiting from Mexico she was probably very Catholic.
I think this is the key difference between us. I’ll become abnormally sad/depressed and it will last for several months. Other women, my goals, and my Mission can help distract me from the sadness, but the sadness will still remain. The only cure seems to be time.That's a problem. Then this is something I would work on, regardless of if you think that's "just the way you are." Women are going to be leaving for for the rest of your life because that's what women are designed to do. Being abnormally sad/depressed for months on end every time this happens is not a good place to be in.
To be clear, I’m not interested in monogamy.I understand and I wasn't implying such. Guys can still be nonmonogamous and still avoid my advice and thus incur massive drama in their lives. I've seen it happen many times.
I feel like I’m going to be unhappy regardless of which system I choose to follow; I’ll just be unhappy for different reasons, and in different ways.Then you need to work on yourself. You need to CHANGE. Which will be hard and take time, no doubt. But it will be worth it.
I wouldn’t call it a weakness. There’s pros and cons to having both high and low empathy.Yes but I don't like cons. I just want pros (as much as humanly possible of course).
Maybe I’m just better suited for serial monogamy.No, it's just that serial monogamy is much easier and much simpler. That's why so many people do it. As I've said before, serial monogamy is fine for guys who don't mind drama and/or regular upset and disappointment (up and down happiness) but for guys who strongly want to be long-term happy, they must figure out how to integrate some kind of nonmonogamy into their lives. (The only other options are to be celibate or just bang hookers the rest of your life, and that's unlikely to make you long-term happy either.)
Eugene 2019-02-28 20:14:36
SM - a lot of people have commented here but your situation gave me some minor flashbacks since I've spent a lot of time with south and central american women. First - let me say this... you did what I think 99% or at least most men would not have the balls to do. You walked away from a woman (even though this was pretty brief time together) who you developed strong feelings for, even if it was mainly NRE type feelings, because you knew it wasn't right for your longterm happiness, and you wouldn't sacrifice or cave in to watch she wanted. IMO you did the hard but right thing, and think you should pat yourself on the back for that (and I don't mean that in a condescending way). You also never quite HAD her (only sex once) which probably adds a bit to the uneasiness you feel. Second - and this is just my gut reaction, but IF she was legitimately into you and attracted to you, any man that would have the balls not just to say what you said, but follow through with it completely by not contacting her after, would command real respect from a woman. My initial reaction was actually shock that she hasn't contacted you yet first after you distanced yourself and said what you said.... so IMO, and of course we'll never know, but IMO there's only one reason that stands out as to why she hasn't contacted you, and that was simply because she already had another guy lined up to go towards right away. Like you said, she was looking for a boyfriend. Like you said, she's from mexico and only here for a brief time. I can almost guarantee you she was fielding as many options as possible. If you gave her what she wanted (boyfriend stuff) she may very well have gone with you. And so while she LIKELY had someone to go straight towards right after you stopped talking to her, you unfortunately were stuck because you did NOT have someone to go towards that you were also into right away. So you had to succumb to more pain and uncertainty during all this time. My other suspicion based on what you said is that this woman just seems very very good at telling guys what they want to here and being very feminine and girly and loving and all that. Not that she's lying, but remember... in the background a lot of this behavior is incentivized to get what she wants from a guy....which is a relationship (which she said is what she wanted). But honestly man... what you did and are doing takes some balls especially for given the fact that you said you're higher on the emotional scale and had strong feelings for her. The fact that you haven't caved in 4 months, and it was your decision to walk away (not her LSNFTE you), tough. Not easy.
SM 2019-02-28 20:15:33
@Caleb I forgot to ask-- as someone with lower empathy, when it comes to people you love like your children, parents, or PF, do you feel more empathetic than usual towards them? Or is it always roughly the same for everyone? @Eugene Thanks, that means a lot.
IMO there’s only one reason that stands out as to why she hasn’t contacted you, and that was simply because she already had another guy lined up to go towards right away.Yes, I was thinking the same thing.
Anon 2019-02-28 20:20:05
I managed to desensitize myself to their discomfortPlease do recognize that in many cases their discomfort exists in your mind only. Empathy is putting yourself in the other person's shoes; however, in reality the other person's shoes are occupied with the other person, not you! What you'd feel isn't the same that they feel. It's like embarrassing yourself in front of others, where you remember it for decades, while they forget after 10 minutes.
SM 2019-02-28 20:38:49
Please do recognize that in many cases their discomfort exists in your mind only. Empathy is putting yourself in the other person’s shoes; however, in reality the other person’s shoes are occupied with the other person, not you! What you’d feel isn’t the same that they feel.That's a good point-- I haven't considered that.
That Asian Dude 2019-02-28 21:55:37
Thanks BD, so much value in this post alone! However, I have a concern/question regarding managing the relationship expectation with the girls: What do you think about the idea of Verbalizing the FB type of relationship upfront (from the very early on, even before sex happen) The purpose of this is to: 1. Avoid false rape accusation in this #metoo era 2. Preventing the girls from badmouthing/attacking our reputation later on (if we live in a small city) 3. And any other potential drama/problem that would arise later on (if she happen to feel disappointed because she expects more from the relationship thus she wants to get revenge on us) Please keep in mind that all we want is long term happiness. And happiness means we don't have much unnecessary problem in our life. So that we can focus more on our Mission in Life Please kindly give me your opinion, BD. Much appreciated
marty 2019-03-01 00:53:55
@SM Dude, that is a lot of words, thoughts, and angst about a girl you only just met and only slept with once. That's not a relationship and that's definitely not love! That's you doing the usual SP thing of projecting your fantasy about how amazing this girl is without really knowing her properly (fake NRE). Classic oneitis. You haven't been with her enough to prove you wrong yet. She could be the worst girl ever for you. You wouldn't know as you hardly know her at all. A girl should be a FB, then an MLTR then an OLTR and you get to know her and she proves herself as someone worthy of your love over time. And she fits into your lifestyle well too. It takes time. It can't happen on a couple of dates. My girl started as a FB, then became an MLTR and I didn't want an OLTR. But as much as I was trying to resist and didn't want to let her become a full GF I couldn't stop it as she just constantly proved herself to be the perfect girl for me. So I let her become an OLTR and then slowly fell more and more in love with her over time as she continued to prove to be a great girl for me. I love her more than ever now. I think we will last many more years together, but if she left I'd be sad and would take a while to get over it and miss her. But I'd also be super excited about the possibility of meeting new fun girls and going back into the non-OLTR phase. Just my 2 cents. 🙂
skeptic 2019-03-01 01:47:54
@ BD I had 2 bad experiences recently as "That Asian Dude" pointed out. all 2 girls were from a sugar dating site. One girl demanded money because she told me if i don't give it she would call cops. I told her to go ahead since I'm glad all communication was written in dating site and she was clearly lying; I never mentioned money once. of course she didn't do anything but it was a bit scary how she needed money and was out of control. 2 nd girl also got mad for some other reason and threatened to blackmail me. I didn't give a shit , my frame was strong, so nothing happened. but I'm glad i didn't give any personal info before. both were first dates. there are some weird types out there. there is a chance for a girl at least theoretically, they may fake few dates playing nice and try to blackmail after that. some people suggest to tape the sex with a hidden camera in case they do something like asian dude warned. someone told me it;s legal if we don't record voice. would you recommend that in case they try to mess up lying in #metoo era to prove sex was consensual? or, otherwise, any other prevention/protection measures we can take?
Tom 2019-03-01 02:35:22
when i was during my peak of red pill awareness, i asked out three different girls on same day. 8 months passed, i started to date my high 6s - low 7s, and my dates started to get younger girls (i assume it's my game influence), slowly eliminating chubbier, older females. I still struggle to date my 8s ( I did have one, but she's crazy slapped my face...that may conclude the hotter the girl's, the more u've to run asshole game onto her) Now my experience has been, prettier girls may test your frame harder, which make you more alert to their shits, and ultimately makes gaming more interesting.
John 2019-03-01 05:01:43
That’s something I wrestled with– it’s hard to say, since in her company, she couldn’t keep her hands off me, was always complimenting me, and telling me how much she liked me.She he was attracted enough. She’s a woman. They want exclusivity. They want Disney. They want monogamy. It’s normal. Women are much more complicated emotionally then men. Not every woman is going to go for an open relationship. I don’t like any relationsip. If a woman pulls that you have to change their mind or next them. Or put an open ended disclaimer like “sure if the sex is great”. I mean that’s what their demanding. That yo7 only fuck them so that’s reasonable.
John 2019-03-01 05:39:06
Now my experience has been, prettier girls may test your frame harderThere's a good reason why some men on this blog prefer women under 25. The younger they are the less likely they are to be difficult and make demands. The older they get the more difficult and demanding they get. And if they're above an 8 that increases the demands and difficulty. The hotter the woman the more they've been catered to by everyone around them. They're used to getting what they want. There are of course outliers. Sometimes you get lucky and hit a late bloomer. Or hot women who are free and open sexually.
TonyOutOfNowhere 2019-03-01 05:48:10
@marty Are you the guy who has a young live-in OLTR (I think a few posts ago they were talking about you)? I would love to ask you some questions and share thoughts since we are basically in the same boats girls-wise.
TonyOutOfNowhere 2019-03-01 05:54:19
I’d say these management skills are useful for guys like me who likes monogamyJust a few days ago my friend with a monogamous girlfriend asked me for advice about how to deal with his girls drama. He's clueless about game (I teach him a few things here and there but have never disclosed to him about all the red pill stuff), so he is in the classic oneitis "This girl's not like the rest" relationship. I told him about soft-nexting her for 48 hours. He was reluctant, wouldn't believe that it will help. Of course, all girls being the same, it worked like a charm. She's all of a sudden a sweet little kitten towards him. So soft nexting - as just one example - works great even in mono relationships.
Marty 2019-03-01 05:58:41
@TonyOutOfNowhere Yes that's me. Ask away.
TonyOutOfNowhere 2019-03-01 06:24:48
@marty How long have you been living together and under what arrangement? I've been living with this one for 6 months now and with zero drama and problems. We're fucking at least twice a day. The only thing that I find somewhat problematic is that she has a lot od disney, expecting our relationship to last forever in bliss and peace. What have been your experiences? You are a more valuable source of information for me that BD on this one since you are living with a young girl just like me.
hey hey 2019-03-01 06:33:15
With previous FBs/MLTRs, that was the exchange; no romance or feelings– just sex.SM my bet is that your frame was completely wrong and that's why she came to you with demands. She was attracted to you all right but you killed the frame off. First of all why after the initial sex you didn't invite her at your place and wanted to meet on neutral ground? That in-between meeting without sex fucked this up. That's one of the mistakes I spotted. There are others, like oververbalizing and getting into a rational conversation with her on the 5th date while sucking her boobs. You should have continued being playful while ignoring her remarks(or being lightly playful/sarcastic) and if she insisted of not having sex with you then you should have gently tell her to leave. There is no reason explaining yourself to a woman you haven't locked in. That would have left the door open for her to make her decision soon without the pressure of trying to show face that you didnt meet her demands.
Anon 2019-03-01 06:41:49
What do you think about the idea of Verbalizing the FB type of relationship upfront (from the very early on, even before sex happen)https://blackdragonblog.com/2018/08/16/verbalizing-nonmonogamy-right-up-front/
Now my experience has been, prettier girls may test your frame harder, which make you more alert to their shits, and ultimately makes gaming more interesting.That has not been my experience at all. To be more specific, they were almost all young, nor am I old (early 30s). I have, however, the problem where I may seem too aloof and uninterested, so it's possible I lost some or many of them to auto-rejection, as opposed to failing "shit tests". And no, nothing in gaming is interesting, at least to me. It's a chore.
TonyOutOfNowhere 2019-03-01 06:53:19
@Marty Thanks man, I appreciate this a lot. I'm not as lucky as you to have my girl find other women for me, but I have a nice enough roster, so it keeps me happy. Although I have reduced this activity with side-girls, since the little kitten that I live with brings me all the satisfaction that I need. I usually only fuck other girls when she is out of town. Where do you have sex with other women, outside of the threesomes with your wife? 🙂
TonyOutOfNowhere 2019-03-01 07:18:27
@marty Oh boy oh boy. You really are a special snowflake 🙂 Thanks for your time!
marty 2019-03-01 09:04:16
@marty Oh boy oh boy. You really are a special snowflake Thanks for your time!Haha no worries. With the Disney stuff. Right from the start, I was talking to my girl about our age gap. Plus she is the same age as my oldest daughters. I'm not interested in having any more kids. I've already got 4 :). So we always talked about how it might not work out over the long term for us and just to enjoy it for what it is. Funny thing is we are getting closer and closer and neither of us can see us breaking up anytime soon. We are still very relaxed about it all though and don't put any pressure on ourselves with it. If it lasts 5,10,15 years we will just go with it and see how it goes. 🙂 We both definitely have that thing about fucking other girls together though. It's like our main hobby. We get on the swinging site and chase hot young girls and also go out and try and pick up other girls together. It's a lot of fun.
TonyOutOfNowhere 2019-03-01 09:23:48
We get on the swinging site and chase hot young girls and also go out and try and pick up other girls together. It’s a lot of fun.Where I'm from there are not many swingers clubs, and in the city that I'm currently in, there aren't any (I would love to try it!) I'm living in a very traditional country so even the type of our relationship is not disclosed to anyone. Do the two of you proclaim yourself open publicly?
Telemaktic 2019-03-01 09:23:48
"I am a much lower-empathy guy than is typical. That’s actually one of the areas I’m seeking to improve (improving our weaknesses again!)." It'd be interesting to see if an increase in empathy in you will have any effect on your level of NRE or oneitisness .
Anon 2019-03-01 10:01:02
It’d be interesting to see if an increase in empathy in you will have any effect on your level of NRE or oneitisness .If anything, it will lower oneitis tendencies if a man improves his ability to perceive women's feelings.
a 2019-03-01 10:39:45
These are good articles. I'd love to see "The X Skills You Must Master for Sales", either here or at the other blog.
joelsuf 2019-03-01 10:57:46
Players treat them all like casual FBs, betas treat them all like girlfriends or close to it. Both of these methods are a recipe for problems.I understand that treating all chicks like girlfriends/wives is bad because it puts a lot of pressure on the chick, but what is so wrong about treating them all like FBs? The only problem I can really conceive is that they won't feel special, which I guess could be an issue.
Blackdragon 2019-03-01 12:03:36
What do you think about the idea of Verbalizing the FB type of relationship upfront (from the very early on, even before sex happen)NO. Do NOT verbalize this stuff. That will only cause problems. That's one of the biggest things men do wrong. Women are not men. Women are not robots. Women are not logical constructs. And yes, read the link Anon gave you.
The purpose of this is to: 1. Avoid false rape accusation in this #metoo eraDon't worry about that unless you're a public figure. Just do these 5 things and you'll be fine.
2. Preventing the girls from badmouthing/attacking our reputation later on (if we live in a small city)This is almost guaranteed to happen eventually if you live in a small town. (Not small city, small town. If you live in a "small city" you're fine.) If you live in a small town, move.
3. And any other potential drama/problem that would arise later on (if she happen to feel disappointed because she expects more from the relationship thus she wants to get revenge on us)That would only occur if you're not congruent. I have literally never received drama like that from an FB. Not once. And I've had scores of FBs.
These are good articles. I’d love to see “The X Skills You Must Master for Sales”, either here or at the other blog.Good idea. I'll do it.
all 2 girls were from a sugar dating site. One girl demanded money because she told me if i don’t give it she would call cops. I told her to go ahead since I’m glad all communication was written in dating site and she was clearly lying; I never mentioned money once. of course she didn’t do anything but it was a bit scary how she needed money and was out of control. 2 nd girl also got mad for some other reason and threatened to blackmail me.1. Neither of these things have ever happened to me and I've probably been doing the sugar daddy stuff a lot longer than you have and with vastly more numbers. If this has actually happened with more than one woman, then I promise you're doing something wrong, or putting out some kind of vibe, that you're an easy target or a reluctant/scared guy. I don't know what you're doing, but you're doing something wrong. 2. If this was actually "scary" to you then, and I say this with love, you really need to man up and Alpha up. You were doing nothing illegal nor immoral, therefore the correct response when this happened would have been to laugh out loud, block her on the site, move on to the next woman in your search results, and completely forget about it.
some people suggest to tape the sex with a hidden camera in case they do something like asian dude warned. someone told me it;s legal if we don’t record voice. would you recommend that in case they try to mess up lying in #metoo era to prove sex was consensual?Now you're being paranoid. To repeat, I've had sex with vast numbers of women and have literally never encountered even anything close to what you're saying. Moreover, what you encountered had absolutely nothing to do with #MeToo. A lot of you guys are way too frightened of this movement. As I've said before, #MeToo is only an issue for men who are wealthy public figures, not you guys. Don't fucking worry about it.
or, otherwise, any other prevention/protection measures we can take?https://blackdragonblog.com/2015/01/22/5-ways-avoid-false-rape-accustations/
I understand that treating all chicks like girlfriends/wives is bad because it puts a lot of pressure on the chick, but what is so wrong about treating them all like FBs?Nothing... if they all really are FBs and that's all you want from them. I'm talking about when guys treat women they actually like as FBs.
X 2019-03-01 13:08:22
I am an extreme variety guy. Last year I fucked over 100 extra girls. That’s the way I like it an my gf understands. She is similar but not as bad as me.This is one new piece of arse every three days or so. Where and how do you get and convert them at this rate?
Poseidon 2019-03-01 14:00:26
Absolutely. I am a much lower-empathy guy than is typical. That’s actually one of the areas I’m seeking to improve (improving our weaknesses again!BD,why is a weakness to have low empathy or no empathy? Lack of empathy is a strength.I bet that the majority of successful people have low empathy.
I tell PF that I love her all the time. I’ve told her stuff like she’s beautiful, wonderful, and so on.My love language is words of affirmation,and probably you have the same one.Because of this ,can i shower a future oltr with "I love you" every time i want?Or should i control this to avoid betaization?
These are good articles. I’d love to see “The X Skills You Must Master for Sales”, either here or at the other blog.This will be a great article. Do you think pua skills,like cold approaching during daygame,help you to become a better salesman,because you learn how to calibrate during different situations and different types of girls,thus increasing your social intelligence?
Aloofus 2019-03-01 15:21:19
BD,why is a weakness to have low empathy or no empathy? Lack of empathy is a strength.I bet that the majority of successful people have low empathy.I'm a guy that literally got a 0 on empathy on my big 5 quiz. I actually spent quite a few years believing there very well may be something wrong with me (IE watching serial killer documentaries and wondering if I was a psychopath). It's very useful in some aspects, and definitely not in others. While someone can be having the worst day of their life, it doesn't move me on iota. OTOH I can absolutely have trouble with relating to people on an emotional level. Basically I have to logically understand HOW they feel (which I can do). I'm not sure I'd say it has anything to do with empathy at all. Success is only a measure of one particular matter of life, and there's no such thing as "successful at everything". Financial success, success with women, success with creativity, all require some type of drawback in some other area. You can't master any particular thing without a lot of time, a lot of fuckups, and quite frankly a little luck.
joelsuf 2019-03-01 15:53:56
#MeToo is only an issue for men who are wealthy public figures, not you guys. Don’t fucking worry about it.People are getting way too paranoid about it, like seriously. It's not like chicks are being taught in school to accuse every dude who makes a move on them of sexual assault.
joelsuf 2019-03-01 15:55:14
While someone can be having the worst day of their life, it doesn’t move me on iota. OTOH I can absolutely have trouble with relating to people on an emotional level. Basically I have to logically understand HOW they feel (which I can do).Hah, you're better than me at least. I only have empathy if I know I can gain something from it.
Blackdragon 2019-03-01 16:20:35
BD,why is a weakness to have low empathy or no empathy?I probably should have been more clear. Low empathy is a trait, not a weakness, so you're correct. Low empathy has indeed been the source of a lot of my successes in life. But as has been said above, low empathy also introduces a set of negatives as well. As a 47 year-old father of two children and Alpha Male 2.0 husband, I need to lessen these negatives if I want to live a long-term happy life. I can't change into a high-empathy guy, nor want to. I love my low empathy! But I have to learn how to naturally understand other people's feelings (ugh, feelings) and demonstrate empathy to certain people in my life. That that's a skill I want to learn and master. It will aid in my long-term happiness at this phase in my life. You may be a younger guy, or a guy with no family, etc, which means you would have no cause to do this. Then don't. Stick with your low empathy and go crazy with it.
My love language is words of affirmation,and probably you have the same one.Actually, no. That's my second to lowest one. I don't give a fuck about giving or receiving compliments. My love language is physical touch, followed by spending time. However, words of affirmation is PF's second love language after time. Thus, I say nice things.
Because of this ,can i shower a future oltr with “I love you” every time i want?Or should i control this to avoid betaization?I don't know what "every time I want" means. If that means four times a day, no. If that means several times a week, yes. This frequency can also increase slightly if you live together since much of the betaization you get is already "consumed" by the fact you live with her. My point was, because of my INTJ personality type and low-empathy, I would rarely say anything nice if it were completely up to me. But that would not be conducive to a long-term harmonious relationship with a female.
Do you think pua skills,like cold approaching during daygame,help you to become a better salesman,because you learn how to calibrate during different situations and different types of girls,thus increasing your social intelligence?Yes, dramatically so.
Blackdragon 2019-03-01 16:22:04
Marty - Would you like to do a guest blog article here about your live-in OLTR? You're a big success story and I think the guys would get a lot of value out of it. Email me if you're interested.
Anon 2019-03-01 17:02:22
While someone can be having the worst day of their life, it doesn’t move me on iota. OTOH I can absolutely have trouble with relating to people on an emotional level. Basically I have to logically understand HOW they feel (which I can do).Then do study how people feel. People are irrational, sure, but it's very much possible to find out the exact ways in which they're irrational. It's not that complicated.
JD 2019-03-01 17:02:33
BD, I'm 53 and for the past three years have had a constant stream of girls in my life, both from sugar dating sites and online dating. It's mostly gone pretty well. I'm still trying to get over my Alpha 1.0 tendencies but doing well. I usually have 2 to 5 girls on rotation. I'm pretty good at keeping girls 6 to 18 months but beyond that it's been a struggle. They either get a boyfriend and LSNFTE me or we have some problems and part ways. I'm currently down to two regulars and one is moving away within the next six months. So, I'm going to have to start prospecting again soon and it's seeming a bit daunting. The problem I'm having now is prospecting for new girls is starting to seem like a grind. My question is does prospecting for new girls ever become a grind for you and what do you do to overcome it? Thanks, JD
marty 2019-03-01 17:35:19
Marty – Would you like to do a guest blog article here about your live-in OLTR? You’re a big success story and I think the guys would get a lot of value out of it. Email me if you’re interested.Yeah, I would be happy to do that. I'll email you.
marty 2019-03-01 17:47:47
his is one new piece of arse every three days or so. Where and how do you get and convert them at this rate?It was actually 114 different girls last year. 🙂 A lot of them are hookers though. 71 hookers and 43 non-hookers. My GF and I go to Thailand usually once a year. We were there for 10 days and fucked 28 different girls last time. 10x4somes and 8x3somes. I also went to Bangkok and Shanghai for a week for work and fucked quite a few during that time. The non-hookers are mostly from swinging. But we also sometimes pick up when we are out. We are constantly meeting up with other swinging couples or going to parties. It's not uncommon for me to sleep with up to 6 different girls at one party.
marty 2019-03-01 17:56:36
Do the two of you proclaim yourself open publicly?Yeah, we are pretty open about everything. My kids, siblings, and even my Mum all know that we are swingers and have an open relationship. Nobody seems to care that much. They all love my GF. Most of my friends know as well. However, I have lost a lot of my friends from my previous life. Old friends who are still TMM don't hang out with me anymore. Their wives are not impressed with my lifestyle hahaha. It doesn't help that some of them have daughters who are older than my GF. We have made a lot of new friends though through swinging. I also have some good mates that I've met through the PUA stuff I've done. They are much more fun people to hang out with anyhow. So it's all good. 🙂
Gang 2019-03-01 22:27:10
@BD Is it possible to love a FB with a burning strong passion, so strong that it feels stronger than the love for the highest end MLTR, but because the FB is too young or too much chaos and drama in her life, or whatever reason disqualifying her from being upgraded, she cannot be upgraded to more than FB and she is not upgraded to anything else than FB and interaction with her is strictly to the book FB? Or is there something inherently wrong with this scenario, such as it's incompatible with your system to have such burning strong passionate love with a FB that feels much stronger than the highest end MLTR? Such as it already violates the "emotional control" section. When I say "strong love passion" it may or may not be similar as a seemingly ever going super strong NRE. Thanks for the great article, I couldn't agree more with the first comment from Marty.
Gang 2019-03-01 22:44:19
@Marty Yes, that would be great article!
Aloofus 2019-03-03 08:14:39
Then do study how people feel. People are irrational, sure, but it’s very much possible to find out the exact ways in which they’re irrational. It’s not that complicated.It's not that I don't understand the how or why people feel the way they do (I do). It's that I literally feel nothing while standing next to someone's dying mother for example. It's just a matter of not being able to relate to people in that manner. I'm a very far outlier in that regard (if you put me in a crowd of 100 people, I'd be the least empathetic person there). I really have no desire to feel other people's feelings whatsoever. Now just because I'm not empathetic doesn't mean that I lack compassion.
Anon 2019-03-03 15:37:28
It’s that I literally feel nothing while standing next to someone’s dying mother for example. [...] I really have no desire to feel other people’s feelings whatsoever.I can say the same about myself. I don't feel for others nor do I have an intention to start doing so. I don't think it's that rare. A peculiarity is that if I imagine a scenario, I can easily get outraged at imaginary unfairness, way easier than I do at real cases, where I have taught myself to just shrug and move on. Well, it even makes some sense that I have empathy for characters I imagine, as they're part of me by definition, as opposed to real-world people. Whether that's common I have no idea.
Blackdragon 2019-03-03 17:50:21
I usually have 2 to 5 girls on rotation. I’m pretty good at keeping girls 6 to 18 months but beyond that it’s been a struggle. They either get a boyfriend and LSNFTE me or we have some problems and part ways.That is normal. It happens to me too. But I have a 94% return rate so I don't care. You shouldn't either.
My question is does prospecting for new girls ever become a grind for you and what do you do to overcome it?Keep doing what you're doing. Keep building up your roster of ex-FBs and ex-MLTRs and then, when the roster big enough, you'll rarely, if ever, need to prospect for new women. That's the entire point. I haven't had to do it for a long time (outside of when I travel or when PF wants someone to do her "Watch Caleb" thing).
Is it possible to love a FB with a burning strong passion, so strong that it feels stronger than the love for the highest end MLTR, but because the FB is too young or too much chaos and drama in her life, or whatever reason disqualifying her from being upgraded, she cannot be upgraded to more than FBPossible for me? No. I could never love a high-drama woman. Possible for other men who don't mind drama or chaos? Sure.
is there something inherently wrong with this scenario, such as it’s incompatible with your system to have such burning strong passionate love with a FB that feels much stronger than the highest end MLTR? Such as it already violates the “emotional control” section.You can't make my system incompatible by thinking or feeling something. You can only do that by doing certain things. You can think whatever you want. It's about what you do.
JudoJohn 2019-03-04 08:25:21
I only have empathy if I know I can gain something from it.Not quite sure that's "empathy" but then again...it might just be a super power.
Gang 2019-03-04 09:09:51
@BD Thanks for clarifying.
Possible for me? No. I could never love a high-drama woman.I am talking very generally, it could be another reason than high drama, such as this FB is low drama but does drugs regularly. Or maybe she doesn't even do drugs but just has serious financial problems. Whatever the reason that disqualifies her from being upgraded to MLTR, she could be low drama and it could be anything else that is listed in the UORM. Maybe you also consider that chaos and it also makes it impossible for you to "love" such a person? Anyways, my question wasn't specifically for you, but for any Alpha 2.0 man in general and you answered it already.
Joe 2019-03-06 02:01:05
Excellent article. Makes sense. Woman can be so complicated yet so simple. Feed them and F........... them and you are half way there. I would like to share one concept or something I have noticed. I have had an incredible high success rate on either first or second dates thus far although I am still learning a lot from this blog. I have had all sorts of relationships over the past few months since being divorced - as to be honest I am not even sure what I want. The ONE thing I have noticed at 90% of all the woman was that they mentioned I made them feel "safe" at some stage. BD how do you interpret this? Personally I really think outcome independence plays a big role here as it seems they struggle to understand how I can just always be so calm. (I guess thye must have had some pretty psycho boyfriends)
Blackdragon 2019-03-06 09:31:03
I am not even sure what I want.Problem number one. You need to sit down ASAP and figure that out. Nothing else in your life will work until you do. Not knowing what you want is extremely dangerous.
BD how do you interpret this?I interpret it as you doing this stuff right. Keep doing. (But figure out what you want!)
Marie 2019-03-21 17:24:13
I'm a 26 year old woman who has been following your blog for about a year now. What's your advice on how to apply these rules to men? I want an OLTR and I'm an extremely caring and devoted person emotionally, but I enjoy causal sex too much to chain myself physically to one person. I've tried being upfront about this on dates, tried slowly edging into the topic after about 1 month of talking/seeing each other, and nothing seems to work. Men either see me as a whore/FB and won't emotionally connect/treat me like they are dating me, or they dump me as soon as I talk about it. I'm dating a 40 year old who is amazing and not jealous in general. From the get-go I told him I was fine with him seeing other women so long as he was safe about it. I've talked to him multiple times since , telling him I can't be in a long term relationship and be physically loyal all the time. For all his forward views, he just can't seem to accept this. In his mind, having sex with other women would mean that he no longer loves me............Since we haven't been dating long, I'm hoping I can get him to come around. Which of these rules am I messing up when it comes to him?
Ghalib Akbar 2019-03-21 19:59:56
What are your thoughts on pimping, is there anything to learn from it.
Anon 2019-03-22 09:26:17
Which of these rules am I messing up when it comes to him?If you get your freedom and he has his but refuses to make use of it, the only rule you're breaking is fussing too much about the situation. You already have what you want and you won't change him further, accept him as he is. Also try swinging and/or threesomes maybe. Or maybe a hotwife arrangement would be to his liking.