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Why No Man Should Have A Girlfriend Until He’s 30
Time to kick some of your asses today. I am now going to give you what is, perhaps, my most controversial advice of all time. What is that I hear? You thought that having nonmonogamous relationships, or not going to college, or some other aspect of my content was the most controversial? Ohhhhh no. It’s not. This is. What we’re going to talk about today.
-By Caleb Jones
I didn’t say a man under 30 shouldn’t have sex. Jesus, no. Of course he should. Regular sex is critical to a man’s happiness, well being, and health, as I’ve explained perhaps hundreds of times over the years. I do not believe in this “monk mode” bullshit that has taken the internet by storm lately and that has allowed men to backwards-rationalize their laziness and low testosterone. That's just more beta bullshit.
If you’re under 30, get laid, and get laid a lot. I’m saying you shouldn’t have a girlfriend. I didn’t say a man under 30 shouldn’t date or have relationships with women. You can have an MLTR. You can have multiple MLTRs if you want. Perfectly fine. Date women, spend time with women (not too much of course), enjoy women, love women. All good. But MLTRs are not girlfriends. They are women you care about and have feelings for but have not made any commitments to, emotional or otherwise. I didn’t say a man under 30 can’t even have a favorite girl out of the several he has on rotation. When you date multiple women, it’s almost inevitable that you will end up with a favorite. That’s how most humans are wired psychologically. Having a favorite FB or high-end MLTR is perfectly fine. But again, these are not girlfriends.
Now here’s what I am saying. If you’re 29 or under, you should not have a girlfriend. Period. It doesn’t matter what type of girlfriend it is. It doesn’t matter if she’s the typical monogamous LTR. It doesn’t matter if she’s an OLTR. It doesn’t matter if she’s de facto monogamous MLTR that you’ve allowed to “morph” into a girlfriend-like fixture in your life because you ignored my advice, got lazy, and stopped having sex with other women. No, no, a thousand times no. For fuck’s sake, younger men should not have girlfriends! I don’t care if you don’t like that. I don’t care if you have a girlfriend right now and are getting ready to type comments about how it’s okay because She’s Not Like The Rest™ and how I’m wrong about this. Say whatever you want. Get as mad and defensive and emotional as you want. I’m still right.
Here are the reasons: 1. Girlfriends are dream-killers. This is number one, top of the list. As I’m about to discuss in great detail in the upcoming Alpha Male 2.0 Lifestyle Course, men in their twenties need to spend their time and energy detaching from their parents, schools, bosses, and other authority figures, moving out on their own, paying off debt, and start building their empires. These things are absolutely critical. When you get a girlfriend, she will eventually start leaning on you to do literally the opposite of all of those things. It’s not because she’s bad or evil. She’s not, and this article is not an anti-woman rant. As my longtime readers already know, women are not evil, disloyal whores or bitches; rather, women are simply biologically hard-wired to behave in certain ways, regardless of your opinions on whether these are appropriate or not. It's how they are, they can't help it, and that's the way they'll always be. Better get used to it.
When you get a girlfriend, she’s going to lean on you, hard, to do things like: Spend more money. Go into more debt. Spend less time working on your dreams, goals, and Mission. Lean more on your family members, including your parents. Drain daily emotional energy and willpower. Impose more rules and restrictions on your behaviors and time. Stop having sex with, dating, or even hanging out with other women.
All of these things are the opposite of what you should be doing in your twenties! All of these things are going to absolutely murder your goals, dreams, plans, finances, masculinity, freedom, and independence. Getting free is difficult enough already. Liberating yourself from your parents, job, schooling, and so on is difficult enough already. Building your Alpha 2.0 business with location independent income is difficult enough already. Getting a god damn girlfriend makes these difficult things 10X more difficult. Why the fuck would you do that to yourself? Actually, here’s why…
2. You don’t have the ability to manage strong feelings and oneitis yet. As I’ve talked about before, younger guys are more susceptible to oneitis and feelings of neediness than older men are, and by a large margin. (I’m not saying older men don’t get oneitis. They certainly can. But the comparison of how often it happens and the degree to which it happens as compared to a younger guy is night and day.) This also applies to young men with strong game. Again, as I’ve talked about before, young players, pick-up artists, and seducers who have had sex with a huge number of women still get oneitis as hard or even harder than inexperienced beta males do.
This is because, when you are a younger guy, you are simply not equipped, both psychologically and in your logistical lifestyle, when you start getting really strong feelings for one girl and put her in a position of authority in your life by making her your girlfriend (even if it’s an Alpha Male 2.0 version, the OLTR). The odds of you seriously fucking up this relationship are sky-high as compared to a man who is 38 or 52. When you’re older, you’re going to be much more confident, much more chill, much less tolerant of woman’s drama and bullshit, much less touchy, and have many more life options. And again, this is true even if you’re a younger guy who has already had sex with over 100 women. Doesn’t matter. Pick-up skills and relationship management skills are two very different things. I have coached and communicated with literally hundreds of men on regarding these topics. Every time I see a guy with a nuclear explosion-level event in his relationship life, at least 85% of the time it’s a guy under the age 30 with a girlfriend. That should tell you something.
3. There’s no fucking rush. Statistically speaking, factoring growth in medical technology, you younger guys are going to live to be well past age 100 and still be vibrant and productive well into your eighties. This isn’t the 1600s where you were a bent-over old man by the time you were 40 (if you were lucky enough to live that long). Dude, you’ve got 40 or 50 years to get a girlfriend if you wait until you’re 30. THERE IS NO RUSH. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU RUSHING THIS STUFF? Get some fucking balls. Be a fucking man. Stop clinging to some girl just because you’re needy or lazy or because you have mommy issues. STOP IT! Use your twenties and focus on becoming an independent man. Then, once you’ve got some more financial infrastructure built, you’re a little more solid both in life and emotionally, then get a girlfriend if you still want one. You’ve got plenty of time.
Objections / Questions Alrightee, now to deal with some of the objections and questions I'm going to get from some of you young, oneitis pussies who are going to (unsuccessfully) try to fight me on this: If having a girlfriend is that bad for your goals in your twenties, why is it then okay to have one in your thirties or forties? Oh, it is bad to have a girlfriend at any age if you’re not very, very careful. The problem is that if you’re in your twenties, the odds that you’re going to be very, very careful are quite low. If you’re older, the odds you’ll be very, very careful are much higher. Older men are more solid, organized, and emotionally stable. This isn’t an insult to you as a younger guy; it’s just a fact. Older men tend to be more careful about preventing problems when they have a girlfriend than younger men. And I’ll say it again: Yes, older men get oneitis too. Yes, older men fuck up having girlfriends too. Just not nearly as bad or as often as younger men.
Caleb, didn’t you get a girlfriend / get married in your twenties??? Yup, I sure did, when I was a stupid, retarded beta male who didn’t have the internet or any books on these topics and didn’t know any better. And I paid the price for that idiotic decision later in life, as you well know. Are YOU a stupid, retarded beta male who doesn’t know any better? Or do you want to do this shit correctly so you can be a better man than I was? The entire point of this blog is to help you avoid the stupid shit I did when I was younger so that you don’t have to encounter the same problems I had to deal with. It’s not so you can just repeat the exact same dumb things, despite my warnings, just because you’re being lazy or irrationally stubborn. That’s fucking stupid.
And, by the way, you’re ignoring a key part of my twenties. I did not get anything that even looked like a girlfriend until I was 25 years old, by choice. I wanted to focus on my empire-building instead. Also, after my divorce at age 35, once again, I didn’t get anything that even looked like a girlfriend until I was in my early forties, again, by choice, because I knew it wasn’t the right time. And this was back in my MLTR days when I was literally averaging two marriage proposals per year from various women for years on end. I still didn’t go there. It wasn’t time. Yeah, I have an OLTR Marriage now, but as I keep saying to you young guys, I’m 47 friggin' years old, which is old enough to be your dad, I make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, I have lived all of my wildest sexual fantasies many times over, and I’ve accomplished almost all of my big goals and dreams in life. Does that describe you? No? Then shut the fuck up and stop comparing me to you. You have much more work to do before you do the girlfriend or wife thing.
Having a girlfriend is not a big deal as long as you keep your Alpha frame and aren’t too serious. Incorrect. A girlfriend, especially a monogamous girlfriend (Jesus, kill me), has authority over your life whether you want to admit it or not. Regardless of how “Alpha” you think you are or how “serious” you think the relationship is, if you have a girlfriend (and that includes OLTR):
You have numerous restrictions on your time and your life that a man without a girlfriend doesn’t have. You have many hours a week consumed by spending time with your girlfriend, hours that a man without a girlfriend can use to improve his life and build his financial and sexual foundations. You have to put up with a decent amount of drama, arguments, complaints, and bullshit from your girlfriend on a regular basis, and the guy without a girlfriend doesn’t have to suffer any of that. Science has confirmed that you only have a finite amount of emotional energy and willpower in any 24 hour period. Many days a week, you have a good amount of these limited resources sucked up by your girlfriend. These are resources you can’t deploy to other areas of your life. WTF, man? I have a girlfriend right now. Are you saying I have to dump her right now then? Just because you say so?
I’m not saying you need to dump your girlfriend right this second. I would, because I’m not a pussy. But you don’t have to if you don’t want to. As always, it’s your life. You can do whatever you want, including doing it in a way where you damage or even destroy your long-term happiness. I’m just relaying the facts to you. That’s my role here. What you do with the facts is up to you.
You don’t have to like the facts. You can hate the facts. But the facts are still facts. One last thing. My son (age 27), like many of you young guys, violated my advice for many years and had a girlfriend. She was a really sweet girl and we all liked her, but that has nothing to do with the facts I’m talking about today. A few months ago he broke it off. It was sad, but he did the right thing. Now he can place his focus where it belongs: improving himself and building his financial future without the overhead of a girlfriend, even a very nice girlfriend, dragging him down like a sea anchor. So listen, my son. Listen to the Alpha Male dad you never had. When you turn 30, then fine, get an OLTR if you still really want one. But before that, focus on yourself. Date women if you want, get laid, have fun, build your business, but focus on becoming your own man. That’s what your twenties should be about.
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MalkeyMonkey 2019-06-10 05:26:45
I'm pretty much the opposite to BD in a lot of ways, probably even politically at odds, but I have to say this is probably right. Iunno, wtf are the odds of you AND a girl having your shit together in your 20s and having explored sexual and lifestyle and travel options enough to settle down, AND be monogamous? Even in a monogamous-centric ideology it's an inane practical impossibility. Young people do lots of weird shit in their 20s and can barely sustain much. I'll even go as far to say somewhere deep down a lot of people DON'T want you to be their boyfriend/girlfriend forever in your 20s. How many of us go into relationships half-aware there will be a next girl or a next girl or a next-next girl and half-pretending this will last forever? Especially women? I'm extremely susceptible to one-itis and let's commit to this person forever, but I know statistically I'm probably fucking wrong. I need to really sweep and swerve to avoid some perfect 10 funny smart dramatic chick tying me down with my own feelings, cuz I get girls who like my type to like me real fast. I'm still a mess who doesn't have my life in order and I still have to avoid some women and fuck the temptation is difficult. Is there some sort of BD trick to staying away from women you know you're going to waste a shitload of time on? God fucking save me in my 20s...
Tony 2019-06-10 06:04:44
I do agree with things you wrote. I don't agree tho, that guys here will read it and listen. I wish people would listen ...( i was in same position back in they days also obviously) Pussyfication and childification still here, sp is also strong. Article could be named as " have a mono girlfriend, fuck up your life badly and now listen you dumbass" I have soooo many friends i've debated about some super OBVIOUS mistake they are going to do... Nobody listen, guess what Sherlock, then they came back, how i knew it and what epic mistake they did.... People somehow know XYZ is a mistake, but they still need to make the mistake, to really know, IT WAS REALLY A FUCKING MISTAKE. So yeah, my conclusion is basically that yeah, BD is right you pussies, but you still need to go trough your epic disney romances, find out some (jesus no, ONE ) woman not worth it, and then FINALLY you can live your own life, you've always wanted.
El Barto 2019-06-10 06:09:12
BD, where were you when I was in my twenties? I could have used this type of advice, instead of my mother/aunts/nieces badgering me about getting a girlfriend. Oh, well, I saw the light in my thirties. I read a quote somewhere (I think it was here) that there are so many men who could have been the next Bill Gates or Jimi Hendrix, but wound up at a crappy, boring job because they choose the wrong woman. I saw it first hand at my last band (I was 34 at the time). Our bassplayer was a very talented musician in his early twenties. Besides having great musical training he also had a good eye for the business side of things. When he joined our band we quickly went from earning about $300 per gig to between $1500 and $2000 per gig. Both by demanding more money from the venue and by selling merchandise. This all changed when things became more serious with his girlfriend. Like BD talked about in this blog, she wasn't a bad person or a nag. But he gradually caved in to her demands to spend more time with her, started practicing less, came in late at band practice etc. About 3 months back I spoke to him again. He wanted my advice to get his life back on track. Well, they broke up 6 months ago, he's living with his parents again, he's got no job, his other musical projects were a failure. I'm trying to help him now using the Alpha 2.0 book as a sort of manual. At 28 he seems quite open to the ideas therein.
VSmilex 2019-06-10 06:09:34
When you are talking about dreams and ambitions, not all people want to have their own business or "build empires". Some (like me) are perfectly fine with having normal boring corporate careers, with much less stress than having a business and a steady, good income through promotions. I finish work at 4 and have plenty of time for gym/college/leisure/dating. I don't see how having a girlfriend affects that.
Jaunty 2019-06-10 06:10:07
You advice has NEVER let me down, not once. The only time things have gone sour is when I do it half-assed or break a rule. I'll tell guys about your advice and they look at me like I'm crazy with the rules for FBs and MLTRs, but I tell them straight up it's worth it and SOLID advice. Anyway, I've been in a OLTR relationship for the past 3 years. I'm 27. I meant to have a MLTR, but I fucked up and broke the rules. It wasn't even that I wanted to get serious, I just got needy and lazy. We even lived together for some time. I feel like I've been married monogamously, because I laugh at and relate to all the stupid unhappily married cliches. Fuck. This girl is attractive, kind, feminine, crazy about me, great in bed, checks off a lot of great boxes. I'm also going insane living with a woman, I need my OWN SHIT again. Luckily, I learned from my mistakes. We're ending things, very peacefully too. I'm committed to having MLTRs and FBs only, because those are actually awesome relationships. There's no need to get so serious with anyone at this age, and definitely drawbacks to getting tied down. EVEN with a "great" girl. You're the only one who gets this shit BD. Thanks for developing an open relationship system that actually works well.
JPO 2019-06-10 07:12:01
Yep. Straight up 100% correct. I met my girlfriend when I moved to a small town temporarily for a job I love (I know that goes against BD's advice of starting a business, but I legit love my job and hate days off). I got into a monogamous relationship as there were basically no other dating options and she's actually a high quality woman. But, we've since moved to a bigger city together and it's killing me. She's a great girl but man, I feel like I'm missing out on so much by being with her. I've made some silly financial decisions that I never would have made as well, seriously affecting the amount I save. Not only that, but basing my life and dreams around another person is soul crushing. Not to mention I really, really miss fucking other girls. As soon as I sort out my finances, I'm out. I say this as a 26 year old man, girlfriend's aren't worth it
zech 2019-06-10 07:14:25
I'm pretty sure that most of the guys must learn this the hard way. They waste 2-3 years of their life at twenties in monogamous relationship and then they get what you are saying. It's sad but in most of the cases - necessary. I know because I would have been one of them most likely because that's how I need to learn some things. Also I think you really need to experience that slow poison drip of a monogamous relationship (in your twenties) to really understand and value alpha 2.0 lifestyle.
JohnMurdoch 2019-06-10 07:27:01
I probably agree with the concept, I just think the reasoning is wrong. Age doesnt make anyone better at relationships, experience does. Older guys have higher odds of having more relationships and because of that, being more chill and confident and less prone to oneitis. I know PUAs have been with lots of girls, but they have experience only on the attraction phase and not the actual relationship, so thats why they are prone to fu**ing it all up when they "finally settle". If the guy spend his 20s dating lots of girls, having lots of sex and MLTRs, then I agree with BD, avoiding a girlfriend will help him a lot. If, on the other hand, the guy spend all these years just having one night stands or shallow FB relationships and never experience the details of a real relationship first hand, there wont be much of a difference between them and younger guys when it comes down to having a serious relationship
Ericclarksmith2ptoh 2019-06-10 08:03:40
can't hear it enough. I'm in a defacto monogamous lazy situation, and working through health, financial situations, and overall independence from the scenarios described. Looking forward to seeing how auditing who I surround myself with/spend my time free's up space for the empire building you're describing. Been working to find a way through it since at least 2014...but have always had my suspicions. im 27. Your saying I can wait to have a girlfriend all the way to 80 and beyond if I follow your advice?
Ericclarksmith2ptoh 2019-06-10 08:19:43
if i just got in the habit of striking up conversations while Im doing my everyday stuff this shouldnt be a problem.
Agaaaaa 2019-06-10 09:48:42
Love how he conveniently ignores ugly men who probably need to approach like 500 women to get 1 girlfriend. LOL
Warmonger 2019-06-10 09:49:30
For a man in his early 20s, I would solely focus on building a business and improving my financial shape. With the amount of money you can make from building a successful business, you can afford to rent your pussy and get lots of high quality variety doing so. All that time and energy you spend on PUA or girlfriends can be funneled into going hard on your business, and the return on that is more magnanimous than the return on anything else.
Antekirtt 2019-06-10 10:03:39
I dodged a bullet in my early twenties when I almost shackled myself to a woman (we were mad about each other). I don't want an OLTR right now, but I don't know if it's because I'm being smart or just because my current logistics make it very problematic. I need a better apartment, a steady income and a more structured schedule; those are probably gonna take 2+ years (but then, in 2018 I was saying 3 years, so I'm not really getting late yet). One thing I'm sure of is that regardless of the rest, I don't want a live-in girlfriend. And since I probably wouldn't bother to see the same girl more than once per week, that should automatically rule out an OLTR upgrade, if I get an MLTR in the foreseeable future. So it ends up pretty naturally working out to "Yep, I'm not having a serious GF before I'm 30, and I'm currently ok with this".
Love how he conveniently ignores ugly men who probably need to approach like 500 women to get 1 girlfriend. LOLAn average looking guy with average game will probably need to send 500 online openers to get laid (which is to say 500 openers to get 10+ dates), and even that's probably optimistic. To get a woman he likes to keep seeing him, survive the first Talk, and the OLTR talk several months later? Maybe ten times that, lol.
Blackdragon 2019-06-10 10:26:49
Is there some sort of BD trick to staying away from women you know you’re going to waste a shitload of time on?You shouldn't waste any time on any women. I certainly don't. And if you do, you have only one person to blame.
Oh, well, I saw the light in my thirties.So did I. That's when it happens for most men... late thirties.
I read a quote somewhere (I think it was here) that there are so many men who could have been the next Bill Gates or Jimi Hendrix, but wound up at a crappy, boring job because they choose the wrong woman.Yup. For all these guys who care about saving society... how many advances, cures, and critical inventions have NOT been made because so many men in their twenties get girlfriends?
When you are talking about dreams and ambitions, not all people want to have their own business or “build empires”. Some (like me) are perfectly fine with having normal boring corporate careersMr. Disagree With Everything comments again. If you're fine with a normal boring corporate career you are not in my target audience and should not be reading nor commenting on this blog. But I've told you that several times before. If you have the time on your hands to regularly read and comment on a blog you completely disagree with, you're demonstrating exactly what kind of man you are. (Or should I say, aren't.)
Anyway, I’ve been in a OLTR relationship for the past 3 years. I’m 27. I meant to have a MLTR, but I fucked up and broke the rules. It wasn’t even that I wanted to get serious, I just got needy and lazy.Yup. Heard that story literally hundreds of times.
But, we’ve since moved to a bigger city together and it’s killing me. She’s a great girl but man, I feel like I’m missing out on so much by being with her.You are.
Your saying I can wait to have a girlfriend all the way to 80 and beyond if I follow your advice?You could but I don't recommend that either. Most men over age 35 are going to eventually want a girlfriend or settle down with someone. That's fine at that time in your life, as long as you do it correctly, which most men don't.
Love how he conveniently ignores ugly men who probably need to approach like 500 women to get 1 girlfriend. LOL1. Most normal men in their twenties don't use PUA or pick-up to get a girlfriend. They just do that with girls at their school or work. 2. If you're too repulsive to get a girlfriend then obviously this article doesn't apply to you. This is why sometimes you see really ugly guys do great in business and make a lot of money very quickly.
Kurt 2019-06-10 10:40:27
I wish someone had been telling me this when I was in my earlier years instead of the whole world telling me the opposite. I actually was against the idea of having a girlfriend all the way into my early 20s but eventually caved to societal pressures and started having girlfriends. Jesus. Turned from a young guy burning with ambition and full of energy to take on the world into a do-nothing loser who just wallowed through and got by and blamed everyone else for my problems for over a decade. At least I eventually got wise.
Gorge 2019-06-10 11:06:10
I'm 29 and have approached about 500 women (it tooks me about 2 years total) until I got a girlfriend. For my next casual girlfriend (fuckbuddy) I approached a few hundred more. For my second real girlfriend that I'm in an LTR currently and who is model tier I had to approach another 200 or so. I only approached non-fat girls. I'm not the best looking guy facially and maxillary deficiency in my case is unfixable, so it takes A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF EFFORT to find a girl to fuck. And a MASSIVE AMOUNT OF TIME. So this guy just assumes that everyone is a Chad or Chadlite like him who can form relationships with women easily. I have to grind like its full time job and be labelled creep of town before I get some fresh pussy that isn't fat or absolutely disgusting. And I'm MAXXXED OUT. My money is on point, my looks are maxxed via gym and some procedures and I still don't make the cut face wise, so I pretty much HAVE TO be grateful that after hundreds of approaches some bitch falls for me. It is not a matter about emotions, it is a matter about pragmatic statistics.
Al 2019-06-10 11:16:11
"It is not a matter about emotions, it is a matter about pragmatic statistics." In part.....tighten up ur game and u can improve ur odds.
Blackdragon 2019-06-10 11:28:12
Gorge / Agaaaaa - Please do not post multiple times in the same thread using different names. Thanks.
JRM 2019-06-10 13:23:24
#1 is SO TRUE. Wish I had known this in my 20's. I'm 34 now. Luckily, I'm so driven that my #1 focus was ALWAYS building my business and ironically, got dumped by every gf because my business was my #1 focus and NOT them - yet, it was why they were so attracted to me in the first place / why they are still attracted to me - my drive. I now have a $20MM per year business. Thank god I never succumbed to their never ending desires to go out, go out to eat, spend money, waste my time with trivial crap, etc. Even now..I still have so much to accomplish.
Eric C Smith 2019-06-10 13:47:29
yknow before I would always get into these dumb situations where id be having "the talk" with girls where my actions displayed boyfriend/girlfriend interests, but I knew that full commitment gets in the way of my dreams...and my dumbass would try to explain this to the girl to gain some ideal scenario with them via not being expected to spend money and emotional energy...but guarantee sex...etc ... I realize now more so the mltr fb scenarios is what will be necessary...usually the thought, effort, and logistics of getting cute->hot girls consistently locked into that kind of relationship model (sober!) is why I put it off...but given the right drive I've moved mountains before...5 years older eric is depending on it. so close to getting into that full operating capacity. ive had little tastes here n there. can't wait for the lifestyle course.
I read a quote somewhere (I think it was here) that there are so many men who could have been the next Bill Gates or Jimi Hendrix, but wound up at a crappy, boring job because they choose the wrong woman.Yup. For all these guys who care about saving society… how many advances, cures, and critical inventions have NOT been made because so many men in their twenties get girlfriends?
VSmilex 2019-06-10 15:43:30
Mr. Disagree With Everything comments again.Where did that come from? I agree with a lot of what you say and enjoy reading your blog from time to time, but I am entitled to my own opinion and challenge your points. Isn't that what a comment section is for?
If you have the time on your handsOh yeah, I have plenty of that. That's my point about having a boring corporate career. No stress, good income, plenty of spare time for everything. Beautiful. That college degree is paying off 🙂
to regularly read and comment on a blog you completely disagree with, you’re demonstrating exactly what kind of man you are. (Or should I say, aren’t.)BD, come on, let's not be rude. I don't comment that often and don't disagree with neither "everything" nor "completely". Why do you react so sharply to an opinion that simply differs from yours is beyond me. Besides, even if I don't agree with something, its always good to take a look at things from a different perspective, that differs from yours. That's why I found you blog interesting in the first place - it has a different take on life.
Federico 2019-06-10 17:03:06
Your books and articles will be birthday gifts to my kids from now on
B 2019-06-10 19:15:31
Comment deleted for violation of Rule Number Three.
Tom 2019-06-10 20:50:26
My cousin (26) male same age as me, recently just married a (21) village girl, she seems subservient and he even asked her not to work but stay at home, she complied. I wonder how long the relationship will last...his parents just let him do whatever he wants, seem blue pilled as fuck.
joelsuf 2019-06-10 21:55:29
I do not believe in this “monk mode” bullshit that has taken the internet by storm lately and that has allowed men to backwards-rationalize their laziness and low testosterone. That’s just more beta bullshit.It really is. And I for one think its pathetic. More and more dudes are looking for more excuses to give up on life. It really sucks.
So this guy just assumes that everyone is a Chad or Chadlite like him who can form relationships with women easily.Easily...? Have you read BD's chick related stuff? He hits up dozens of chicks online to get his chicks...daily. It's a grind for him too my dude.
Nicole 2019-06-10 21:59:23
The Chinese say something very different (I am Chinese) - you must complete yourself before you can complete your family, then you can settle a country, then you can conquer the world. I find myself the most productive when my romantic life is stable. Dating multiple people takes just way too much time and energy, I’d much rather just focus on one relationship so I can free up time for everything else. I am on track to $1M net worth by 40, but then again I’m a woman so one could argue it’s different. A good deal of extremely successful men married in their twenties, like warren buffet and Jeff bezos. Politicians and athletes also tend to be married by late twenties or early thirties. You can call them beta and I don’t know how much sex they’re having, but they are wildly successful nonetheless. I don’t think being single is a pre-requisite to success, maybe finding the right partner is.
Dmytro 2019-06-11 01:25:07
Im 29 and having an OLTR relationships for 3 years. So... you think I should dump my OLTR just because... Even though over these 3 years she has been extremely supportive in advancing my career and part-time business, keeping physically fit, eating healthy, saving money and asset investing and even threesomes. She has none of the effects that are detrimental to alpha 2.0 goals and is in fact very conductive to them. Consistently over several years. The only possible backdraw is she is way hotter then the average girl in my hit-zone and because of this my number of FB's over the recent years hovers in a range of 1.
Buzz 2019-06-11 01:40:10
I did have a girlfriend from 20 to 30 and I swear we had sex every day except when she had her period and she was on the pill so her period was only 3 days. We would pay the bills and run out and do grocery shopping during that time. For 10 years and that was bare back sex too. She was a first generation feminist, she even tried to out fuck me, she tried to get me cry uncle, it did work though 🙂 She did not want to get married or have kids she even had a doll made and we called it our little abortion. I still miss her. But, ya, I am still poor. But a good girlfriend can really give you a lot of sex.
Paul C 2019-06-11 04:35:35
For what it's worth, if you exclude one in high school, I got my first girlfriend at age 35.
Craig 2019-06-11 05:46:48
This post came at just the right time for me. I've been working hard lately and haven't taken any red pills in a while. I've been seeing a girl who appears to be a NAWALT, but I know from experience that she'll eventually show her true self. I had a girlfriend before who also seemed like a NAWALT and I got hard oneitis. It was so pathetic. She was working me like a puppet, destroyed my self-confidence and nearly destroyed my relationships with my family too. I got virtually no work done when seeing her as I had no emotional energy left to get things done when I did have a moment free. I've been having some creeping thoughts lately that maybe the girl I'm currently seeing really is a NAWALT and that I shouldn't judge her based on past relationships. I needed this reminder that whether NAWALTs exist or not is irrelevant. The fact that I'm considering anything serious at all right now at 26 is the problem when I've got so much work to do. Cheers.
JJ Roberts 2019-06-11 08:04:28
The idea that you are supposed to commit even at a later age is still social programming Invest, don't commit Commitment is the death of choice.
Blackdragon 2019-06-11 11:38:00
The Chinese say something very different (I am Chinese)Well aware; I'm quite familiar with Chinese culture. Much of this blog will not apply to traditional Chinese philosophy because of the highly collectivist nature of your culture.
A good deal of extremely successful men married in their twenties, like warren buffet and Jeff bezos.<BD hits paste> If you use the exception to the rule as the basis for your argument, you don't have one.
I don’t think being single is a pre-requisite to successThat is not my argument.
Im 29 and having an OLTR relationships for 3 years. So… you think I should dump my OLTR just because… Even though over these 3 years she has been extremely supportive in advancing my career and part-time business, keeping physically fit, eating healthy, saving money and asset investing and even threesomes. She has none of the effects that are detrimental to alpha 2.0 goals and is in fact very conductive to them.You're talking about the present and I'm talking about your future. Scroll up and read Buzz's comment right below yours and note his second to last sentence.
The idea that you are supposed to commit even at a later age is still social programmingCorrect. I'm not saying men should get a GF at an older age, fuck no. Just that at older ages, most men will want to.
Invest, don’t commit Commitment is the death of choice.Overstatement. I am committed to PF and I have shitloads of choice in my life, including sex life. I have less choice, but my choice isn't dead; it's quite healthy.
Huge-O 2019-06-11 12:02:42
I'll try to share some of my own current experiences as I'm 22 and my first OLTR for almost a year now. Are women dream killers? yes and no. Women love comfort and they will try to pull you in to their 'comfort zone'. They want to hang out, watch Netflix in bed, go out for dinner with you, go to the movies, on a holiday trip etc. Even when I was a little chubbier than now, like 13% bf (not chubby at all just relatively speaking) now I'm more toned down about 10% bf she tells me how she misses laying on my 'soft spots' and that everything is 'rock hard' now. I lift for me so idc. But I do agree that women will try to distract you from your goals by pulling you into their comfort zone. They don't want you to study hard, work hard and go to the gym 5 times a week. They want to 'chill'. Like BD says, they're just 'wasting' your precious time with their family gathering bullshit, parties etc. Also they're expensive. I rarely buy presents and always inexpensive, it's the ordering pizza from home, going to the movies etc that fucks your wallet long-term. To minimize damage here you want to make sure you don't see her more than once or twice a week. When you see her she should arrive late and be kicked out early in the morning. If you really don't give a shit, kick her out before you go to sleep. Most of all, you should be VERY disciplined to not get caught up in bullshit and waste precious time and energy. Can't handle ONEITIS yet. Generally true, also depends on the person. I love my girl but I'm not 'in love' with her, like she is with me. I'm naturally quite rational/stoic and don't get caught up in my feelings. It happens occasionally but in the back of my mind I know and tell myself it's just a trick my mind is playing on me with chemicals. Btw BD, the only way to develop thick skin is by getting hurt a couple of times. Who cares pain is temporary. There's no rush. I know there's no rush, I just wanted to try this LTR thing. I'm never getting married, never going to live together with a woman etc. If I ever want kids I will use a surrogate mom so I get full custody. Obviously I can get laid without a girlfriend. If you have to pay with commitment for sex you're either low value or stupid. Obviously BD is right. I'll dump my girl somewhere this year as I'm going to study abroad for a semester in 2o20. But I must add, I've learned a lot during this relationship and applying BDs material in real life. (I only discovered BD a couple months into the relationship). Holding frame, prioritizing yourself first, never giving in to demands, don't get pulled in to her drama, remaining calm, not giving her male drama (this one is probably the hardest lmao), figured out how to turn a virgin into a sex animal and learned a lot about females in general. And much more. You can learn all these things without being in a relationship and just having FBs also, I'm in a relationship and I agree with BD because his logic, as usually, is sound.
SabrinaK 2019-06-11 12:58:36
A good deal of extremely successful men married in their twenties, like warren buffet and Jeff bezos.BD:
If you use the exception to the rule as the basis for your argument, you don’t have one.If you slightly change Nicole's point of "marriage" to "having girlfriends in their 20s" (which is what you're arguing against), her statement is factually correct, not "an exception." Most very successful self-made entrepreneurs/businessmen (in the modern world) did have girlfriends in their mid-late 20s and a good deal of them married them in their early-mid 30s. These girlfriends did not "murder" these men's dreams. Not by a long shot.
compeliminator 2019-06-11 13:30:14
first of all im 55 years old. I've been through severe oneitus episodes in my life. they can be devastating and a few have been for me,unfortunately. there's some very good advice here. don't forget that this can happen to you after you're 30 as well. well after in my case. i wish i would have had a resource like this when i was younger
joelsuf 2019-06-11 18:42:17
She was a first generation feministStraight up, those chicks are hornier than most dudes. Even the younger women's lib chicks are like that. Holy shit. I've been with a few of them. One of them gave me one of the best blowjobs ever and swallowed every drop. Just like a porno. I was in disbelief for a few minutes, I thought that kind of thing only happened in porn lol.
Are women dream killers? yes and no.It's not chicks that are dream killers in and of themselves, its one-itis and this super antiquated view that you need to "protect your woman at all times even if you have to put certain stuff on hold" that is a dream killer.
Nicole 2019-06-11 22:25:59
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/21/married-men-are-earning-much-more-money-than-everyone-else-in-america.html Married men out-earn single men (and in fact everyone else) at every age. I am not naming exceptions, I merely named famous examples.
Blackdragon 2019-06-11 22:28:51
Are women dream killers?Women are not dream killers. Women are great. Girlfriends while in your twenties are dream killers.
If you slightly change Nicole’s point of “marriage” to “having girlfriends in their 20s” (which is what you’re arguing against), her statement is factually correctThat is not a slight change. It's odd that you think it is.
Blackdragon 2019-06-11 22:55:00
Married men out-earn single men (and in fact everyone else) at every age.I know that and it has literally nothing to do what I'm talking about here. Look at your own graph very carefully for the men in their 20s, then re-read my article very slowly. Your graph shows that married guys in their 20s make about $5,000 per year more than single guys their same age. That has literally nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about being a successful, supremely happy, greatly fulfilled, free man and, ideally, Alpha Male 2.0. I'm not talking about a married beta male corporate slave, handcuffed to a desk for the rest of his life, who makes a few thousand a year more than his single buddy. I realize that's what you are talking about, and that's fine. I'm sure you'd love to marry that cubicle-dwelling, middle-management beta male and think he would make a great temporary slave, uh, I mean loving and obedient husband, which he probably would (until you divorced him). But that is not what I am talking about. Not even close.
SabrinaK 2019-06-11 23:35:54
@BlackDragon Your argument is no men should have girlfriends in their 20s because they are "dream killers". I am saying many very successful self-made entrepreneurs/businessmen (in the modern world) did have girlfriends/wives in their mid-late 20s. We can go line by line of most famous and successful entrepreneurs and we will see that almost all of them have had monogamous girlfriends in their 20s. Those are the "facts," and those girlfriends did not kill these men's dreams. That was my point. Now that said, being emotionally serious at a very young age won't be an excellent idea, not because "girlfriends kill dreams" but because young people. both genders, are not emotionally mature at very young ages. But by "young age" I'm talking early 20s. 30 is a very high threshold to *never* have any emotionally serious relationships; by mid-late 20s attempting a long term relationship with the opposite sex is a great idea, and it won't hamper your lofty "dreams". If girlfriends before men reach 30 unilaterally kill dreams, we won't have Facebook and Amazon.
BD, come on, let’s not be rude. I don’t comment that often and don’t disagree with neither “everything” nor “completely”. Why do you react so sharply to an opinion that simply differs from yours is beyond me.This blog actually have great insights (or I would not be here). But you are incredibly bad at taking any kind of criticism, and any criticism is usually rebuked with an emotional and often rude outburst (which oddly you are s against) which are often not backed "by facts". I mean:
I’m sure you’d love to marry that cubicle-dwelling, middle-management beta male and think he would make a great temporary slave, uh, I mean loving and obedient husband, which he probably would (until you divorced him).Dude, Nicole just pointed out married men statistically outearn single men in every age. Where does this cubicle-dwelling, middle-management beta male thing coming from (you love saying this to me - you once said my current relationship is "borderline abusive"). Sometimes you need to control your emotions. 🙂
MartyMcFly 2019-06-12 00:09:21
I wouldn’t say Jeff Bezos is an example of a guy who was happily married. The reason many women don’t want to be in long term relationships during their early twenties is not because they’re emotionally immature. It’s because society tells them that they’re “free and liberated” (which they are,) and so they now want to sow their wild oats and be promiscuous like men naturally are.
C Lo 2019-06-12 00:23:33
Married men out-earn single men (and in fact everyone else) at every age.In my personal experience being married for 20 years, this is true. When I was married, I worked 60-80 hours a week so my ex could have a nice life (she worked too). I was also dead broke. I literally didn't go to the dentist for a decade kinda broke. Now that I'm not married, I work 4o hours a week, my ex is out of my pocket, I have a nice life, and plenty of money left over even though I make half what I did when I was married. And I have an extra 40 hours a week to enjoy it. How is it possible to earn HALF and have more left over? You kids can take random guesses at why. It's not what you make, it's what you keep.
Tom 2019-06-12 00:29:57
@BD For men in 20s building a successful business or career is already a tough job. adding this to another skill or job of learning game and keeping FBs and MLTRs in rotation is a lot to ask. even for you it took several years of continuous work and effort to finally cracking to code of dating/gaming to have easy sex. for average men, it's very hard to get easy sex while still focused on and taking care of main financial goals. I think having a low drama girlfriend or OLTR wife that provides much needed sex without effort or the need to work on finding new FBs etc makes more sense to me to focus better on business goals. let's say in case 1 you have a low drama GF or wife who gives you enough sex you need while you work on financial goals, and in case2 you have FBs and MLTRs in rotation. for case 2 , you need to first master game and dating ahead of time and all that which would take few years of your time, right? I don't think there is anyone who can master these in few short months. so practically case 1 seems easier and more doable to me for average men. i agree all the drawbacks you mentioned in case 1 but in practice you can't shortcut to reach a level to get enough sex you need from FBs etc in case 2 which would also negatively impact your productivity end success. I went through case 1 by SP but still my life was productive and i achieved major goals by 40, no major mistakes. much to do still. i found your blog recently i plan to open up my marriage and have better sex life in future but hey no rush here as well. all can still doable. if you did case 1 i mean you are not a loser you can still make things up , business, riches, more quality women , more sex etc. later as well. for my son in 20s, case 1 still seems more practical to me to suggest than mastering and focusing on game and dating first and investing time on that first possibly ruining career and business goals. you assumed anyone can get enough and easy sex in 20s without much effort but i would disagree. learning game and dating is a skill one has to master and has to invest a lot of time and energy, even for good looking guys. as you also mentioned in this blog, even some experienced PUAs sometimes go without sex for months. and you said most of them financially not doing well. if having sex is a must every week or so at least for productivity then case 1 seems better option. to claim case 2 is better you need hard data and good sample of at least 100 average men in 20s who can easily get sex without much effort and consistently without ruining their financial goals,
SabrinaK 2019-06-12 00:42:35
I wouldn’t say Jeff Bezos is an example of a guy who was happily married.Irrelevant. This article is saying men should not have girlfriends before 30 because girlfriends "kill dreams." Jeff Bezos is one of many examples of very successful entrepreneurs (who is not "cubicle dwelling middle management) who had a serious girlfriend in his 20s, and she definitely did not "kill" his dreams. Their having less than ideal marriage is irrelevant, because this post is arguing against even having 2 year long term relationship with one girl before the age of 30 - Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, and Warren Buffett (along with many other successful enterpreneurs/ was brought up to refute that point. Many BD's viewpoints about life I respect - having location independent income, investing in diversified portfolios, having multiple passports, etc. - but some of his blanket statements and advice (all men should be fucking more than one women forever, no men should have girlfriends under 30, women's best life path is to be an OLTR partner of Alpha 2.0, etc.) are problematic.
The reason many women don’t want to be in long term relationships during their early twenties is not because they’re emotionally immature. It’s because society tells them that they’re “free and liberated” (which they are,) and so they now want to sow their wild oats and be promiscuous like men naturally are.Maybe, for some girls. Also irrelevant to my point. Nothing against young people (both genders) *choosing* not to be in serious relationships because they do not want to. *Advising* all men under 30 to actively avoid having an emotionally serious relationship is what I am arguing against.
Tom 2019-06-12 00:44:19
in both case 1 and case2 you pay a price. i agree all you are saying and the cost of case 1 . but case 2 is not free and the cost and the price you pay in terms of time, energy to learn and apply ideal game and dating seems higher to me in case 2 than having just a GF that provides easy consistent sex.
Tom 2019-06-12 01:06:16
@BD we all agree sex is a must for men for productivity and necessary. so can you explain in case 2 how men in 20s would have sex easy and cheap(not spending much time and energy)? this is not easy stuff. if it was that easy you wouldn't pay sugars and i know how you don't like much spending $s. you even think it's not worth of your time and energy (after all that expertise ) to spend; i.e or/and it's much higher cost than paying for it with $s. how come then men in 20s can afford(or less cost) spending their time/energy in case 2 rather than focusing on building their business or career?
Tom 2019-06-12 01:21:38
my son is 7 now. when he reaches 20s, I'd suggest him finding a village type of girlfriend, hot, very low drama, feminine, gives much sex etc, and then focus on building his business. I think cost of mastering case 2 and try to keep FBs in rotation and around easily and consistently is much more than case 1 while trying to build his business at the same time.
Huge-O 2019-06-12 02:47:22
@SabrinaK There's a difference between correlation and causation darling. Most men have girlfriends in their 20s and especially in the 20th century men got married early. So it's not a miracle that most successful men had a girlfriend in their 20s. Also, these men were smart and driven + the fact that many women choose LTR partners based on provider potential, it's even less of a miracle they had girlfriends. Still even though you're factually correct that very successful men had girlfriends in their 20s, your argument is weak because I can argue that although 10 men became successful despite their girlfriends, maybe another 100 or so were held back by their girlfriends although they had the same potential as those other 10 but we'll never hear about those. Women are no dream killers but in general if you want to be successful you're better off spending time and energy on yourself and your business than on women. You want to invest where you get the highest ROI; which is not in a woman. Furthermore, if you want to make an actual argument, point out how, specifically girlfriends, add to a man his business success. For every small advantage you name I can probably think of 2 big disadvantages. Like I said earlier, women love comfort and trying to achieve personal success isn't comfortable, it requires discipline and hard work. They will try in many ways to distract you from your work and make you 'comfortable' (not maliciously, it happens subconsciously)
SabrinaK 2019-06-12 03:41:03
you’re factually correct that very successful men had girlfriends in their 20sYep.
I can argue that although 10 men became successful despite their girlfriends, maybe another 100 or so were held back by their girlfriends although they had the same potential as those other 10 but we’ll never hear about those.Where are these random numbers coming from? Care to back this up?
Furthermore, if you want to make an actual argument, point out how, specifically girlfriends, add to a man his business success.I am not arguing every single men in their 20s should have girlfriends, nor am I arguing all girlfriends invariably make men successful. I am arguing many men who achieve business success do, and did have girlfriends when they were in their 20s, and therefore, his statement that "girlfriends kill dreams" is not backed up by facts. (and, well, how BD responds to criticism is very emotional). Many men cite their supportive wives and girlfriends as invaluable emotional support and asset in building up their careers/businesses; a stable emotional support from a person you love is a powerful force in success (definitely compared to the loss of energy and effort used in having multiple casual relationships, something that a lot of men in their 20s won't be able to do anyways). Anecdotally, I was the first one to support by boyfriend when he decided to quit his (very) well paying corporate job to start his startup at 29. In fact, I've known him in my social circle for some time and it was when he was pondering quitting his job that we decided to start dating. I trust he will succeed, as he has a long track record of great work ethic and have shown acute business sense for the period I have known him. I have introduced him to one of his first angel investors for his seed round. No matter what BD saids, most men in their 20s will continue to have girlfriends - BD's younger self included. A better, fact-based advice for younger men will be: "Falling in love and attempting a serious relationship is a great thing, and will teach you relationship management skills - be it open or closed. With that said. make sure both you and your girlfriend is conducive to each other's dreams and your idea of success and happiness is in line with each other. If not, don't be afraid to move on." But that advice wouldn't sell because it's dime a dozen. So BD exaggerates the awfulness of "girlfriends" to make his extreme case of "never having girlfriends before 30" which is not backed by any reasonable facts.
Luke 2019-06-12 03:55:36
Blackdragon Im 20,i have no desire Now to be a PUA ,because i want to become financial independent first,later in life i will do that. If i get in a mltr with a girl in her 20s,i have no control over the fact that she can have herself mltr guys on the side.That disadvantage is eliminated if i have an mltr with a over 33 girl,because the odds are slim that she will have Fbs or Mltrs,but the odds are sky high that she will be a Dominant. How was your first 2 years of marriage with your dominant wife?Did you enjoyed it,what did you compromised?How did she bossed you around and what she did if you didnt follow her "orders"?How would you rate your happiness in the first 2 years of relationship with the 1st wife,(if you dont count the problems of having kids)? If now im a high end beta,and i get a mltr with an older dominant ,but I also have two fbs on the side.If i fall in love with her and after 2 years i broke up with her,do you think at that point i will be on a lower level on the alpha -beta scale than now? Do you think its worth compromising 2,3 years of my life remaining a high end beta,in order to build my financial life and be with an older dominant mltr +FBs and after that to become an alpha 2.0 ?
Nicole 2019-06-12 05:06:16
https://wallethacks.com/average-net-worth-by-age-americans/ Married men not only earn more, but are also wealthier by net worth at every age. This data would include non-“wage slaves” in both camps, and single men STILL are behind by a wide margin. Those numbers are averages from a very large sample. What it tells us is that if you are a single male, the rule says you will most likely have less money than married men, at any age. If single male tends to do better, they will be the ones that are earning on average $5000 more than married men, but they don’t. I am just pointing out the rule. Your system teaches men to be a certain kind of exceptions (alpha 2.0 or whatever you call it). I can respect that. I just think it’s important for young men who are reading this to understand that, staying single is not going to make you more money or be happier, you have to do a LOT of things in very specific ways for it to work. It should be that a man has to be already doing these x number of things in their 20s, not having a girlfriend would be a side effect, NOT THE CAUSE. Otherwise, you might actually be better off coupling with a solid partner in most cases.
Alex 2019-06-12 06:47:36
These articles just keep getting better - the quality has gone even higher since you re-vamped the blog (and they were already great to begin with.) Since you talk about detaching from authority figures in this article, the only one I have left to detach from is the job. Business is starting to make more money now, and my Emergency Fund is 7 months of living expenses. At what income level (for the business) do you recommend sacking off the stable job?
Fanguy 2019-06-12 08:15:20
Thanks dad. When i am at ur age, ill date a hot 20 yr old.
Eugene 2019-06-12 10:42:02
@Nicole Correlation does not equal causation. Could it be that men that are already relatively successful/stable or have more money are also more likely to get married, and afford all that comes with marriage? Or that woman are more likely to want to marry a partner that is already financially stable? Sounds like a good explanation to me. That doesn't mean that the marriage or the partner itself helped them create more wealth. Simply could be that wealthier or more financially stable people on average, are also more likely to get married. An actual good (and real) comparison would be to take males that are starting or currently running a business and get married at 25, vs another group of males in the same position at 25 that still aren't married by 30, and compare the net worth of both guys by that age. You won't find that unfortunately.
Eugene 2019-06-12 13:17:20
Also ... not to double comment but I feel a lot of the female commenters here either didn't actually read this post or just conveniently ignored a lot of what BD said. BD is saying that you should have not a girlfriend, but UNDER BD'S ALPHA 2.0 MODEL. This is NOT the same as normal every day guys that either "have an exclusive girlfriend" or "have casual sex or one night stands", or literally don't do anything. Like he said, you can have MLTR's. MLTR"s mean you can date women. You can have emotional connections with women. You can go on trips with women, do stuff together, etc. Favorite girl. He said all this stuff....The difference like he said is that you have not made a commitment to her, emotional or otherwise. I don't think a single commenter here that has tried to poke holes in this has acknowledged this. So I feel like you're all applying regular dating logic here and not as it applies to non monogomous relationships. Second, every single female commenter here keeps talking about "income" or "net worth" as being higher for "married males". BD already put that to rest in his responses, but what about all the other stuff he mentioned. What about all the restrictions to your life? Rules? Potential drama? I feel the need to repost what he said here : Spend less time working on your dreams, goals, and Mission. Lean more on your family members, including your parents. Drain daily emotional energy and willpower. Impose more rules and restrictions on your behaviors and time. Stop having sex with, dating, or even hanging out with other women. So far as I haven't seen a single response in relation to all this...just the same stuff about "married men make more money" or some variation.
C Lo 2019-06-12 13:55:45
I think having a low drama girlfriend or OLTR wifeHow many guys in their 20s have the perspective of what a low drama woman looks like? I think that's precisely why BD is advocating not getting a girlfriend. Use your 20s to get your life right, and enjoy women but use that time to get the experience to know what a good girlfriend or wife looks like. And if you believe "like my mom; she's a good woman" NO. This is one of those things you can only learn by experience.
Married men not only earn more, but are also wealthier by net worth at every age.Of course, but you left off the why. As cited above, married men work more and harder than single men. I submit that it's because they have to, but that's just speculation on my part post divorce. 75% of divorces are filed by women, so if you are deft enough to snare a hard working man, you can assure that you'll get half that net worth when you leave him! It's like a savings account funded by someone elses wallet. Divorce destroys net worth, so duh married men have more!
CrabRangoon 2019-06-12 14:03:28
@Nicole Someone else pointed it out "It’s not what you make, it’s what you keep.". Yes married men do out earn single men generally speaking. BUT single men have more disposable/discretionary income which is what matters. Who cares if a married guy is making a bit more salary wise if he spends way more of that money on his wife and kids? I'd rather be able to keep the money I earn than just be able to say I make a bit more as a married guy. These married guys have to work more and make more to maintain the lifestyle. The goal is to work less over time while keeping multiple streams of more passive income flowing in. The tradcons love to point out that married men make more to get guys back on the reservation and make it sound like such a great deal when they know it's not. PragerU did a while video on this a while back and it was pretty well skewered as propaganda to make men wage slaves as some point of pride.
C Lo 2019-06-12 14:19:43
I had substantial mid six figure net worth when I was left by my spouse. We had never had any children, and I had supported her while she did her post graduate work and her credentialing. We were married for twenty years. When we separated, she had just started in a stable career that paid more than I had ever made. In my first trip to my attorney's office (I'm the one who filed), I told him that I wanted him to meet with opposing council in a couple of weeks, and discuss property settlement - and give her all of it. In California, a no fault state, you are entitled to half, which he explained to me. I explained to him I had been with her for twenty years, she was mad at me for something I didn't have anything to do with (she had an affair) and I didn't want her back, so it was my best (least drama) option because she was going to make certain she extracted maximum punishment on me on the way out. He laughed at me. Three years later, after she had cycled through three different lawyers, she self represented herself to half (and while 100% of it created by me, and I was totally okay with this.) In the process of separation, she had left the area, moved several hundred miles away, and I was STILL barraged by her filing police reports of ongoing stalking and domestic violence. This was a surprise to both me and the lady I was low key living with. And it really was an issue because she forced things to a trial, which gave her several opportunities to complain to the bailiff. I don't think I have the vocabulary to describe the anxiety and terror this caused. Anyway, she got half. And my battery of attorneys (civil and criminal) got my other half, plus I got an appointment with a bankruptcy lawyer. And this is in a no fault state. Why am I telling this personal story? Because I want to refute this point:
What it tells us is that if you are a single male, the rule says you will most likely have less money than married men, at any age.I submit 100% of less is always a better option than 0% of more.
C Lo 2019-06-12 14:28:13
Who cares if a married guy is making a bit more salary wise if he spends way more of that money on his wife and kids?The women who are married to these (statistically speaking, soon to be eventually divorced) men, that's who.
C Lo 2019-06-12 14:34:03
But don't take my word for it! Always do your own research.
Berti 2019-06-12 16:21:12
@ "married men earn more than single men" - that's a no brainer. Of course they earn more, especially when married with children. Companies pay them more for the same job or work because they have more expenses and the companies want them to be stable and comfortable in order to stay with them. That's why most governments around the world always support married people financially as well (lower taxes etc).
compeliminator first of all im 55 years old. I’ve been through severe oneitus episodes in my life. they can be devastating and a few have been for me,unfortunately. there’s some very good advice here. don’t forget that this can happen to you after you’re 30 as well. well after in my case. i wish i would have had a resource like this when i was youngerThis is a good point to back up my personal oppinion here. Our fucking BIOLOGY is stronger than anything else in this life. Even though I agree with BD about not getting a serious girlfriend, it's almost impossible to make this happen or at least not get oneitis at times in your 20s or even later, unless a) you are not able to get that girlfriend YOU want anyway or b) if that girl is below your own looks level. Successful guys who became rich while having a girlfriend in their 20s, have the attitude of Mob bosses. Mobsters usually marry houswive type of women who are not very attractive so they cheat on them with hookers and side chicks through their money, yet they know, their wives make good mothers and housekeepers. However, for the average Joe, it will be very hard at that age to not fall in love or get oneitis at one point, if he wants to date pretty women. BD couldn't do it 20 years ago and I believe he would have not done been able to do this either way, even if he was an Alpha 2.0 guy then, like all of us would not be able. I had girls in my 20s and even some sort of relationships but I wasn't really into most of them anyway, I just enjoyed having sex and getting validation. The girls I really liked in my early and mid 20s were the ones, who made me go crazy because they had troops of men over them, so they could play with my half blue pilled self. Only my pride and my dislike for serious relationships made me not become a simp and not chase or court them. I got way better wtith women in my 30s but still, imo you can't fool your own biology, it's too strong. I swear to god, 90% of all red pillers and readers here, would immediately fall in love if they met a hot girl who treated them right for a month or less. lol I actually believe many men get successful in life, AFTER they experience being with a hot women in their younger age (with all the ups and downs). Then they can focus on their careers whie being single. I have actually never met a guy who did well with women in his 30s or 40s, when he first focused on his career (unless it was because of their money obviously). These guys usually ended up getting divorced or dumped later because they lacked experiencing sleeping or being with women or hot women in their early years, since they were either not attractive enough or put too much effort in their careers. Sexual experience and also emotional "love", even when for a short period of time, is very important for a man because you can't fake this confidence you gain when it comes to dealing with women, no matter how much money you make later on.
Blackdragon 2019-06-12 16:29:30
Nicole and Sabrina - This will be my last response to you in this thread because it's pretty obvious you're not really reading (or reading but not actually comprehending, or reading but purposely ignoring) my responses to you and the article you just read, and I really don't want to go around and round repeating myself as what started to happen in the last thread. I'll make this final response as comprehensive as I can though: 1. Men who become really successful later in life and hit their big goals and dreams in life while being straddled with a girlfriend or wife in their 20s are the exception to the rule. I'm not saying they don't exist. Of course some do, I know some myself, but they are the exception. Read what I just said word-for-word. I didn't say men with girlfriends in their 20s make less money or have lower net worths; that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I didn't say men with girlfriends in their 20s never increase their income; that also has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. 2. To repeat (for the last time), I am not talking about some corporate wage slave beta making 20% more money or having a net worth that's 30% higher than his unmarried drinking buddy. The world is full of unfullfilled, unfree, high-income men. I'm talking about men accomplishing their big goals and dreams in life, a topic, as has been noted above by other commenters, you ladies have been carefully avoiding (and you know why). 3. Married men do indeed tend to make / be worth a little more money, yes. I've discussed this before. This is because more organized, paint-by-the-numbers men (mostly betas) are more likely to marry than total losers. I have examined this at this blog before, particularly when women point out that married men live longer than single men. Correlation, not causation. (If you're seriously telling men in their 20s to get married or get a girlfriend because doing that will somehow cause them to actually make/have more money in life, you're insane. Thus my point.) 4. You are not factoring the massive divorce rate which removes married men's money and destroys their dreams and lives later in life. If you're going to defend girlfriends/marriage for men in their 20s in this way, you must include that factor. You can't cherry-pick just the numbers that you like. (Numbers that have nothing to do with my argument as well.) 5. Men in their 20s who are lazy losers who never get a girlfriend or a wife are, of course, also not going to be successful at all, regardless of the fact they're single. I've never said anything to indicate otherwise. You two are demonstrating a classic case of imprinting your own feelings and desires on something you read rather than reading what the writer actually wrote. In the above article, you two seem to think I wrote, “Guys, don’t get a girlfriend in your twenties, or else you’ll make $5-10K less per year at your corporate job!!!” Not only did I not write that, but in many ways I wrote the exact opposite. But you can't see that. You're too focused on marrying a college graduate beta male husband in his twenties with “a good job.” Which is fine, but it's yet another indication of why this blog is written for men and not women. I wish you both the best.
C Lo 2019-06-12 16:48:38
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/21/married-men-are-earning-much-more-money-than-everyone-else-in-america.html Age 25 Single men: $32,585 Married men: $38,355 Age 30 Single men: $41,942 Married men: $55,138 Age 35 Single men: $47,311 Married men: $70,374 Age 40 Single men: $46,610 Married men: $80,125 Age 45 Single men: $49,754 Married men: $85,233 Or: make less than double while married to give her half (plus child support) upon divorce. BTW, as soon as you get divorced, you are on the hook for alimony for what you made while married, not what you make now. And you are expected to earn the same going forward even though we all know they will make less. What a great deal!
Antekirtt 2019-06-12 16:59:56
The whole point is that the guy in his twenties making decent money and in a serious relationship tends to be spending way less of that on himself, and/or : it is on himself, spurred by his GF and not in the good sense - the article and many comments explained that at length.
I submit 100% of less is always a better option than 0% of more.Yep. Even if we're talking actual causation and not correlation (which isn't established at all), it matters little that you earn more "thanks to your serious GF" if you did it because she wanted the two of you to be spending more and so you had to get your income up. When I bother to get into MLTRs I might call them petite amie or copine as they say here in France, the word in my perception may be less 'serious' than girlfriend, but they won't be OLTRs and most certainly not live-in OLTRs (lol). That's for when I'm 35+, perhaps 40+.
Blackdragon 2019-06-12 17:10:32
When I was married, I worked 60-80 hours a week so my ex could have a nice life (she worked too). I was also dead broke. I literally didn’t go to the dentist for a decade kinda broke.Me too. I made six-figures when I was married the first time, but had a negative net worth by the time I was 30.
For men in 20s building a successful business or career is already a tough job. adding this to another skill or job of learning game and keeping FBs and MLTRs in rotation is a lot to ask. even for you it took several years of continuous work and effort to finally cracking to code of dating/gaming to have easy sex. for average men, it’s very hard to get easy sex while still focused on and taking care of main financial goals. I think having a low drama girlfriend or OLTR wife that provides much needed sex without effort or the need to work on finding new FBs etc makes more sense to me to focus better on business goals.Now this is an example of someone disagreeing with me but actually using real points that directly reflect exactly what I said. Well done. I've said before that it will take most men several years to develop both their business and dating skills. That's correct. You should plan on this. But that doesn't mean you need a girlfriend and it SURE AS FUCK doesn't mean you need to get a wife in your twenties (Jesus). As I've said before, just get one MLTR and one distant FB on the side. It won't take you years and years to do this unless there is something seriously wrong with you (which would make you the exception to the rule). Once you've got MLTR + distant FB, go ahead and focus on your business goals all you like, even if you manage the MLTR and FB poorly (for a while). I have a lot more to say about this in the upcoming Alpha 2.0 Lifestyle Course.
for my son in 20s, case 1 still seems more practical to me to suggestYou're not factoring the sheer amount of long-term damage to your son's long-term goals, as well as the fact your son will (likely) get hardcore oneitis for his mono-GF which will screw up every other area of life, as well as the fact he may not have the game to get a "hot, low-drama GF." I would far rather see your son get a weak MLTR with one weak FB on the side, then focus on his business goals, even if he fucks up the FB and/or MLTR, which he probably will. Far less damage to his life overall no matter what happens under those conditions. And I say this as a man who has a son currently in his 20s.
Still even though you’re factually correct that very successful men had girlfriends in their 20s, your argument is weak because I can argue that although 10 men became successful despite their girlfriends, maybe another 100 or so were held back by their girlfriends although they had the same potential as those other 10 but we’ll never hear about those.That was exactly my point in the comments above which these two ladies conveniently skipped over. And while we can't point at any stats to show specific numbers behind this, we all know it's accurate to a degree.
If i get in a mltr with a girl in her 20s,i have no control over the fact that she can have herself mltr guys on the side.You should get to the point where you don't care either way. In an OLTR I get it, but in an MLTR scenario you shouldn't give a shit.
That disadvantage is eliminated if i have an mltr with a over 33 girl,because the odds are slim that she will have Fbs or Mltrs,but the odds are sky high that she will be a Dominant.Not eliminated, but very reduced, yes. Women well over age 33 with those high levels of ASD have no big desire to go out and bang dudes on the side like we men do with side-women. Women are not men!
How was your first 2 years of marriage with your dominant wife?Pink Firefly is not a Dominant so I assume you mean my first wife, who was a mild Dominant. The first six months were great. The later 1.5 years of the first 2 were pretty hard, due to the adjustments I had to make to A) living with another person, B) monogamy, C) raising a stepchild and dealing with her defensiveness around that, D) raising children with a woman in general, and E) dealing with the reduced amount of sex that inevitably happens with monogamous marriages, which hit around the four month mark.
Did you enjoyed it,what did you compromised?I didn't enjoy it. I compromised most of my life, just as society told me.
How did she bossed you aroundNot really. We just disagreed a lot.
How would you rate your happiness in the first 2 years of relationship with the 1st wife,(if you dont count the problems of having kids)?The first six moths: 7-8, the latter 1.5 years: 4-5.
If now im a high end beta,and i get a mltr with an older dominant ,but I also have two fbs on the side.If i fall in love with her and after 2 years i broke up with her,do you think at that point i will be on a lower level on the alpha -beta scale than now?No. Higher. Betas can't do OLTRs at all, so an OLTR that fails is still better than being monogamous.
Do you think its worth compromising 2,3 years of my life remaining a high end beta,in order to build my financial life and be with an older dominant mltr +FBs and after that to become an alpha 2.0 ?What do you think is my answer?
These articles just keep getting better – the quality has gone even higher since you re-vamped the blog (and they were already great to begin with.)Thank you; I have gone out of my way to dramatically improve them since the revamp. Less in frequency but much higher in quality.
At what income level (for the business) do you recommend sacking off the stable job?As soon as you can possibly do it. "Stable jobs" are prisons for beta males.
How many guys in their 20s have the perspective of what a low drama woman looks like? I think that’s precisely why BD is advocating not getting a girlfriend.Exactly. What he's suggesting makes no sense.
Hmic 2019-06-12 18:17:41
Nicole and Sabrina – This will be my last response to you in this thread because it’s pretty obvious you’re not really reading (or reading but not actually comprehending, or reading but purposely ignoring) my responses to you and the article you just read, and I really don’t want to go around and round repeating myself as what started to happen in the last thread.Well, the commenters who started getting caught in arguments with women pretty obviously haven't read much of your blog (or have read it but not so much comprehending it)... I mean, if they think arguing can be any use but arguing itself there's a lot on this blog that has escaped them.
Hmic 2019-06-12 18:27:00
So far as I haven’t seen a single response in relation to all this…just the same stuff about “married men make more money” or some variation.Clearly, it occupies the centre of those commenter's minds when it comes to men & relationships. I hope I need not colour you surprised here.
Hmic 2019-06-12 18:34:11
The reason many women don’t want to be in long term relationships during their early twenties is not because they’re emotionally immature. It’s because society tells them that they’re “free and liberated” (which they are,) and so they now want to sow their wild oats and be promiscuous like men naturally are.@MartyMcFly Not easy to part nature from nurture on this one. But sure there is being a lot of nurture. As tough those high up in society really needed to sow acrimony between the sexes, to fulfil some design of theirs.
MartyMcFly 2019-06-13 01:20:47
@HMIC, not gonna get into it here as it’s too off topic. But you’re absolutely right that the elites have a very vested interest in fanning the flames of the so-called gender war, and they’ve turned their efforts up to eleven ever since Trump got elected.
C Lo 2019-06-13 06:51:00
OMG the last two posts are so full of buffer you could choke on it. I’m not sure who’s got more cognitive dissonance, you two or the women who post marriage is “good” for men’s financial health and believe it, There is no nefarious plot to pit the sexes against each other! It’s just manifestation of how women are in a modern world. Stoo being saps and snap out of it! It’s distracting you from your mission.
Jake 2019-06-13 07:38:31
From experience I agree with this strategy. To diverge from the default steady job path to become self employed takes courage and everyone has doubts. What happens when you discuss this with your significant other? In my case my girlfriends and wife doubled my self doubts and concerns, making risky choices so much harder that even without a veto I ended up playing safe. James Dyson's wife worked two jobs, raised three kids, and maxed thier debt so he could focus on making over 5000 odd vacuum prototypes until sucess 7 years later. He probably showed her progress and said he might have a breakthrough next year, every year. Until he did. If they divorce she definitely earned half! Will your girlfriend or wife do this? Perhaps if somone asks you to share space, finances or get married say "yes if you will support me and my project 100% for the next 3-6 years". This way it's up to her and you are more likely to succeed either way.
Nicole 2019-06-13 08:15:03
This will be my last comment here as well. The data shows that men who are better off financial tend to be in a couple. I am not suggesting that women is the CAUSE but the mere fact that better off men tend to choose to be in a couple, and the relative “loser” men would tend to be single, by choice or not I don’t know. What I know though is 99% of men who are married did it by choice, and they also tend to be higher in both net worth (which means they DO save) and higher in income. So what does that tell you? You can explain that with whatever pet theory you got but it is just what it is.
Eugene 2019-06-13 08:49:46
@Nicole again ... in your world exist either married men, or "loser" men who are single. Nothing in between. I guess that means BD was a loser for over a decade between the time he got his divorce to the time he recently married his OLTR. lol.
hollywood 2019-06-13 09:29:38
That disadvantage is eliminated if i have an mltr with a over 33 girl,because the odds are slim that she will have Fbs or Mltrs,but the odds are sky high that she will be a Dominant.Not eliminated, but very reduced, yes. Women well over age 33 with those high levels of ASD have no big desire to go out and bang dudes on the side like we men do with side-women. Women are not men!
hilsey 2019-06-13 11:33:47
If I was a man, I'd follow your advice in a heartbeat. I'd be thanking the Universe I stumbled onto your blog (I still don't know how I got here lol). I'm not asking directly just typing...what about women? I guess it depends on the type of woman. Dominants will always need a second banana/minion/boyfriend. Submissives will want boyfriends but imo should stick with older men or at least older than her. Independents will be serious with the man who really does it for her otherwise no. I'll be 29 and still at that point in my life where I don't want the overhead of a long term serious relationship. I avoided having a boyfriend throughout high school and college and didn't spend much time with boys outside of school. I have not got serious with a male in his teens or 20s. Why? 1. Overprotective parents. 2. Teenage boys are unattractive (early 20s=teenage). 3. Introvert personality. I likes my "me" time. So in my late 20s I'm just starting to enjoy Men. The last man I was with was 46 years old. A Man. I like their company, the interaction...I get along well with them, so I am not in a rush to pin down just one. And I understand how a serious relationship can harm a man's freedom if he is not on his Ps and Qs and most the men I've encountered have been sweet betas so it goes triple for them. Also, the idea of having great authority over an adult human's life is not appealing to me. I know eventually I will want a serious Boyfriend/Life Partner type thing but now I'll stick with dating and having relationships. My comfort level is one man I see regularly plus one other man very infrequently. That's all for me. Plus I haven't met one yet to justify stirring up those serious feelings/thoughts within me. The issue is keeping it that way since most men these days want to stamp you with the Girlfriend tag immediately. When they ask me to be their girlfriend I just say "ask again in 6 months" because you know they ask in the 1st-2nd month. Of course I don't expect 100% sexual monogamy no matter how many times they may want to claim it be so--I don't gotta believe it. Luckily this new man I'm with is 34 and seems to lean heavily on being open to having an open relationship because I sure as hell don't see him fucking just me.
tester of paternity 2019-06-13 11:35:25
What I know though is 99% of men who are married did it by choice, and they also tend to be higher in both net worth (which means they DO save) and higher in income. So what does that tell you?That tells me that the guys who got divorced lost half of their net worth, a lot of their income and are in "single" category now... Simple. If you're divorced, you're now single.
C Lo 2019-06-13 12:59:23
This will be my last comment here as well. The data shows that men who are better off financial tend to be in a couple.No, it doesn't. The evidence says that men who are married earn more money. More money doesn't equate "better off" because it ignores the spend side of the equation.
Antekirtt 2019-06-13 13:32:59
My comfort level is one man I see regularly plus one other man very infrequently. That’s all for me. Plus I haven’t met one yet to justify stirring up those serious feelings/thoughts within me. The issue is keeping it that way since most men these days want to stamp you with the Girlfriend tag immediately. When they ask me to be their girlfriend I just say “ask again in 6 months” because you know they ask in the 1st-2nd month. Of course I don’t expect 100% sexual monogamy no matter how many times they may want to claim it be so–I don’t gotta believe it.That seems both (1) representative of the situation normal sex-positive women face with men, (2) a good approach (from their own POV) for them follow. Honestly it's not that different from the men's POV either, except maybe replace "one other man very infrequently" with "one or two other women semi-regularly". And some women will be hornier and have 2-3 side guys, too.
Incognito 2019-06-13 20:37:36
The issue is keeping it that way since most men these days want to stamp you with the Girlfriend tag immediately.I find that shocking, but I have no doubt you're right. What happened to the good old days when you'd expect guys to put up some token resistance to commitment, and we all thought it was WOMEN who wanted to settle down immediately and make babies?
bluegreen 2019-06-13 23:40:17
It's hard to predict what my life would have been like if I had understood these (MLTRs not OLTR until 30s - focus on your mission) ideas from the ages of about 13-30. I would have probably enjoyed romance a lot more. But who knows for sure? I'm still happy where I am but I think I tried to put the cart before the horse many times for a long time.
The data shows that men who are better off financial tend to be in a couple.This statement may be technically true but correlation doesn't always mean causation. It's a common mistake. Most people do it all the time. The biggest 2 possible leaps in logic: 1) doesn't include finances of divorced men & 2) money doesn't always equal happiness.
Do Not Use This Username 2019-06-14 01:23:47
I'm not arguing one way or the other, just sharing my personal experiences here. First girlfriend at 26. I had location independent self employment since I left wage-slave job at 23. For those 3 years I really just worked the minimum to enjoy as much free time as possible. Was very carefree and stress free. But I guess I got tired of roaming, travelling and following outdoor pursuits. Wanted to be grounded. We moved in together and I definitely felt the elements that BD writes about. I had a drive to keep living the crazy life, be spontaneous and there were definitely a few sliding door moments that I look back on and wonder, what if? Staying single I would have ticked some other life goals...but I perhaps wouldn't have ticked the ones I have. At 26 I was ready to shift gears and for the first time properly committed to business. At that time I was actually in debt. Seven years later I now have company equity worth millions of dollars and even if the company evaporates and we can't sell it I have banked and invested my way to financial independence from income over these years. My official early retirement date is January 2021 at age 34. I expect to take a few years off to pursue those other goals I mentioned and then probably will work in a part time capacity, maybe 10 to 20 hours a week, as an advisor or on foundation / charity work. So having a girlfriend in the 20s worked for me. However I've seen it ruin some of my friends and shiver when I look ay my older sister and her beta male high income corporate job slave. There literally seems to be no upside in that life. For me the GF has brought some added costs, but to those commenters mentioning cinema and dinner! That's small fry. The big things would be larger housing, extra cars, holiday costs. My girlfriend has always worked but yeah I definitely pay in because I'm after high standards of living than if we lived at her level and did a 50:50 split. I also encourage her to have her own savings and investments. I got into a high consumption trap for a few years, but we sat down talked it out and made a plan for our financial future. I guess I was living like I had already made it and learnt you need to keep costs down until you actually get a liquidity event. I actually feel I've accomplished more having a solid relationship and someone to keep me accountable. She's been a sounding board, emotional support, helped me prepare for negotiations and difficult business conversations. She has people skills which don't come so naturally to me that I've learnt from. She's been there to take stress off, loves to cook (I haven't cooked a meal in years, my cooking night is the restaurant!) and I have never been denied sex. Any time of day (we largely work from home) sex is there. In all she's just made me a better human. I'd place her as an independent, she has her own life, friends and work. For instance at a party we tend to separate and do our own thing. She'll go away on a work trip, or take a solo holiday. We both do that. She's high sex drive and very frugal. She also has location independent work, one thing that made us very compatible. So I see everything that BD is saying but it's not been my experience. Maybe I am the exception that proves the rule? I found a cheerleader, someone that supports and makes me capable of more. Someone that wants to see me excel and has nurtured and enable me to grow as a person.
MartyMcFly 2019-06-14 05:15:42
You’re right, the exception does prove the rule. Unicorns are out there, but they’re so statistically rare that it’s practically useless to go looking for them. For the majority of his audience, by a wide margin, taking the advice stated in the article will lead to better results.
Al 2019-06-14 08:33:40
BD is correct tho........it seems as if ita the guys who push for 'girlfriend' status first in order to 'lock it down'.....scarcity mentality.
SabrinaK 2019-06-14 12:07:16
Men who become really successful later in life and hit their big goals and dreams in life while being straddled with a girlfriend or wife in their 20s are the exception to the rule. I’m not saying they don’t exist. Of course some do, I know some myself, but they are the exception."Exception" usually means the incidence is so miniscule that it is statistically insignificant. Just as I cannot prove men become successful *because* their girlfriends instead of *despite* of their girlfriends, no one can prove the opposite either. Yep, causation does not equal correlation, but correlation suggests successful men did have girlfriends/wives in their 20s, not the other way around. If you don't even have the correlation box checked, you can't say it's a rule that "having a girlfriend in your 20s will kill your dreams." That was my original point - don't worry, I read and comprehend your article.
You’re too focused on marrying a college graduate beta male husband in his twenties with “a good job.”Again, so incorrect. I don't care if my boyfriend has a "good job" or not. I only care if he is smart and ambitious - which, yes, is usually correlated with a college degree and job prestige, but I very well know there are other indicators of intelligence and success. You definitely did not read my comment (or willfully disregarded) saying the above:
Anecdotally, I was the first one to support by boyfriend when he decided to quit his (very) well paying corporate job to start his startup at 29. In fact, I’ve known him in my social circle for some time and it was when he was pondering quitting his job that we decided to start dating. I trust he will succeed, as he has a long track record of great work ethic and have shown acute business sense for the period I have known him. I have introduced him to one of his first angel investors for his seed round.I suggest you read your commentator's comments before making personal comments like that above. My boyfriend and I are incredibly on board with incorporating location independent income and entrepreneurship in our lives.
Which is fine, but it’s yet another indication of why this blog is written for men and not women.Actually, this blog is written for a very niche population of men who has their mind made up about women (either due to plain misogyny or due to some painful experience in the past), and is determined to think any optimistic view on a monogamous relationship with women are "exception to the rule," EVEN WHEN STATISTICS SAY OTHERWISE. Those men are your key audience, not *all* men.
C Lo 2019-06-14 13:09:56
What happened to the good old days when you’d expect guys to put up some token resistance to commitment, and we all thought it was WOMEN who wanted to settle down immediately and make babies?So, I know this guy who was seeing someone for 2 1/2 years. She kept pressing him for commitment. He was often dissatisfied while they were dating, because he wanted to see her more, but didn't want bitter ex drama to screw up their relationship. He finally gave into whatever she asked for, and one upped it by moving to the new city she had relocated for a job to as evidence of his commitment. She dumped him! I know a local politician who was screwing a friend of a friend on the downlow. She'd show up twice a week, have drinks, screw his brains out, and leave. He's a nice, sensitive guy who wanted more. She dumped him! Both of these guys were unable to meet their own emotional needs, and in the process of trying to get them met by someone else, lost access to what was, by account, really good no strings attached sex. I'm not sure where these men decided that it's okay to get your emotional needs met inside a relationship, but these women clearly didn't have that problem.
The biggest 2 possible leaps in logic: 1) doesn’t include finances of divorced men & 2) money doesn’t always equal happiness.I agree with your larger point, but your specifics are wrong, we know 1) divorced men make less money because they stats lump them into singles and singles make less and 2) money doesn't equate happiness but poverty is a certain to make you miserable, and you will be way broke when you are divorced. A buddy of mine is a decent attorney, and commented that most of the time (he was unequivocal that it was every time, but I don't have any data to back it up and I think he's wrong) a guy gets divorced by a woman, the precursor is the man either getting laid off or having a business fail or got sick or something else like that. He's not contributing anymore, so why not cut the dead weight, cash in that equity check you jointly have, and move on with another guy? Lord knows that there's plenty of them out there.
I actually feel I’ve accomplished more having a solid relationship and someone to keep me accountable. She’s been a sounding board, emotional support, helped me prepare for negotiations and difficult business conversations...... In all she’s just made me a better human.Good for you, but you either got insanely lucky or when circumstances change she might too. I guarantee it will change things. Note my above comments. What I find most disturbing about the tone of his post is his neediness and outright dependency on this other person, and how this guy is gonna be blown out if she dumps him or dies or something. All relationships end sooner or later and he's not prepared.
BD is correct tho……..it seems as if ita the guys who push for ‘girlfriend’ status first in order to ‘lock it down’…..scarcity mentality.And it can strike anyone. Even if your head is straight, and you've been inoculated against oneitisness, it can be tough if you find someone you really click with. I'm not sure you can explain it to someone without them having had somebody just crush them a couple of times before they understand what happened, and how to respond to it when it happens again.
If you don’t even have the correlation box checked, you can’t say it’s a rule that “having a bad girlfriendFixed that for you, and you missed the larger message that the only way to figure out what a bad one looks like is to enjoy women (but not commit) for a period of time and that period is better in your twenties than in your forties.
in your 20sat any age will kill your dreams.”
Actually, this blog is written for a very niche population of men who has their mind made up about women (either due to plain misogyny or due to some painful experience in the past), and is determined to think any optimistic view on a monogamous relationship with women are “exception to the rule,” EVEN WHEN STATISTICS SAY OTHERWISE.I've asked you more than once (nicely) to provide these cites that you claim say what you say they do. The cites you consistently trot out show how good things are when they are good (true!), but always ignore how bad things get when they get bad. I could make a sexist comment here that you were engaging in chick logic or something, but men do this nonsense too. If you are a man who's dating someone (or working, or otherwise involved with someone) who exhibits these sorts of qualities, beware. This person does not have your best interests in mind; rather, they are manipulating you to believe in some agenda that serves you, but it really only serves them in the end if things get sideways.
Pseudonymous User 2019-06-14 16:11:28
This statistics argument is absolutely meaningless for two reasons. Firstly, for the vast majority of men getting a GF or a wife isn't the outcome of a conscious mate-procurement process but a product of chance, therefore it definitely doesn't provide a hint as to what someone's conscious decisions should look like. Secondly, if the statistics say "Men exhibiting property A exhibit property B more often than men without A" it doesn't mean A causes B. Instead, it's likely a factor C exists and it causes both A and B. This is what the correlation does not imply causation adage means. Finally, even if whatever reasoning convinces you "I should get myself a girlfriend"---and any rational person will extend that to "I should get myself a good girlfriend", for some definition of that term---by what process are you going to achieve said result? How on earth can the process not involve getting intimate (in all senses) with many women? How on earth can anyone justify following the prevailing protocol, which literally relies on a small number of chance encounters? Conscious and rational GF-seeking, even in the situations where BD argues it's contraindicated, automatically leads to a BD-like approach anyway.
SabrinaK 2019-06-14 18:01:45
No statistics will prove casuality unless it is a carefully controlled lab experiment, which we will never see in statistics regarding heterosexual relationships. That’s why BD’s approach of insisting on “facts and logic” for romantic relationships sounds great on paper, and even can work on anecdotal basis, but can never be “a rule”. The “rule” above that no men should have a serious girlfriend before 30 because “girlfriends kill dreams” (not my summary, but a literal quote from above post) assumes a very strong casual relationship between “girlfriend in men’s 20s” and “failure (dreams being killed)”. All one has to do to rebut that point, logistically, is to provide a counterexample, not to provide a causal relationship to prove the reverse. What Nicole & I did was not only provide a counterexample but also to show these counterexamples are “not exceptions”. The burden of proof on causality is on BD who are making “rules”, not on me. If anyone is willing to prove that the majority of men I know who achieved success in their lives while having girlfriends/wives in their 20s (and actively tell people their significant other’s support, emotional or otherwise, was a big part of their success) are “exception to the rule”, feel free to. And better make that proof “not based on emotions and just based on facts”. Just because some of you never had a woman who truly support your dreams (and no, these dreams do not have to be “being a wage slave”), does not mean all men never find those women. My boyfriend definitely did in his late 20s. I’m just saying many men in their 20s can too, and they often do. I just feel sorry for those who don’t.
Pseudonymous User 2019-06-14 19:33:03
Sabrina, which kind of girlfriend a man who follows the traditional approach is more likely to end up with, the eventual-dream-killing-one or the supporting one?
SabrinaK 2019-06-14 20:19:10
@Pseudonymous User By traditional, you mean men who meet their partner in their social circle/mutual friends? Probably a supporting partner whose life view is similar to theirs (no matter what they prioritize in life). And if he meets her earlier in life, more likely they will be more “in sync” in their life views as they develop together. If you meet women in sugar baby sites, you will probably meet women who are in dire need of financial support or very money-oriented women. If you meet women in “hookup” sites, probably you will meet women who enjoy casual relationships or want to “cast a wide net” in their dating lives, etc. Too general a question.
C Lo 2019-06-14 21:09:08
Too general a question.No cites strikes back! My favorite catchphrase is "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story", but this lady takes the cake.
SabrinaK 2019-06-14 22:40:38
@C Lo I would genuinely want to know if there is any statistics or study that proves girlfriends kill male dreams in their 20s, men become successful *despite* having girlfriends in their twenties, and that those who do are “the exception” to the rule.
C Lo 2019-06-15 00:24:21
This is not an isolated issue to your twenties. It can strike a man at any age. I'll give you a personal example: My ex wife was not nice; I do not say that to slag her, but because it's true. She was nice enough, but not nice. What she did have was my same work ethic, and was always very supportive of me. She never got in the way of me working on my mission, whatever that was. But time went on, things changed, and as we divorced, someone gave me some advice "you just need to find a nice one, and work it out with her". So I tried that and got one that was VERY nice. And an enormous time suck. She was the most disorganized person I've ever met, and lazy, and highly emotional. I was miserable, in a way that I never was with my ex wife. And the reason is the nice one wasn't respectful of not wasting time. It killed me. I couldn't do what I needed to do, and she'd guilt me because I'd set firm boundaries and that was effecting "our time" because she couldn't get organized. Why is this important? Because I got lucky in my twenties and got a decent girlfriend and married her. Coincidentally, I got lucky again in my 40s when I started dating the Nice but Wasteful one because I figured out I didn't really want a nice one. I wanted one with low drama who wasn't needy and had her own physical fitness regimen outside of me. And if I can't have one like that, I'm totally okay with being alone. Can you imagine how screwed I'd have been if I had met the nice one when I was 20? I'd of been miserable for the rest of my life!
MartyMcFly 2019-06-15 01:56:28
That’s why BD’s approach of insisting on “facts and logic” for romantic relationships sounds great on paper, and even can work on anecdotal basis, but can never be “a rule”.From the mouths of babe! You heard it there folks, debate’s over now. Logic and facts? Straight out the window just like the bath water. Here’s the thing - you’re not fooling anybody. We all know that both of you, Sabrina K and Nicole, each have a certain dog in this fight. That’s why you’re arguing from emotion, rather than from reason. Besides, no one with a truly busy life has this much time to argue on the internet. If you really believe in what it is you’re saying, then that’s great. Say your peace, and then go practice what you preach. No need for vehement back-and-forths.
CCMidwest 2019-06-15 05:08:06
I agree with this article 100% I married at age 22 to a traditional Christian virgin girl. I was broke at the time. Multi millionaire by age 32 "Successful"...right? Nope. Between the disaster of having a business partner go insane and the expense of divorce...I'm no longer a millionaire at age 38 (easy have that again by 40) She subtly fought me the entire marriage over "quality time", jealousy over my success, jealousy over other women, and used her (and my) traditional beliefs to guilt me. She was also very expensive, even though we lived a middle class life. She didn't want a bunch of fancy shit, but our kids went to the doctor over the slightest thing, our grocery bill was insane (over $2000 a month easy, for 4 people), lots of money going to poor family members, lots of money spent for "quality time" at restaurants, etc. "Don't you want our kids and family to be healthy??" she would say. (And yes, I know that was all my fault for allowing it) Yes, I made a lot of money during the time we were married. However, I didn't get to keep much of it AND the money I made was LESS than the goals I had set for myself...because of the marriage. The argument being made in the comments is that these uber successful guys were successful even with wives and girlfriends. Did anyone ask those men if they are successful though? If they've made their goals? If the relationships held them back? Or are we just using our opinion that because of their high net worth they MUST be successful? (And possibly falsely applying our own judgement of what constitutes success onto someone that doesn't consider themselves successful) As I like to tell my clients, "let's focus on facts...not feelings"
SabrinaK 2019-06-15 06:41:07
@C Lo As you were telling me I do not cite studies, I was simply asking you to cite a causal study that proved the rule written in the article. You have given me a personal anecdote. Thank you for your story! 🙂 @MartyMcFly You are taking my words out of context, or have very low reading comprehension skills. I am saying because most, if not all, statistics only show correlation and not causality, on men-women relationships, it is impossible to have a blanket rule that applies to every man on the universe (and to say those that do not are just “exceptions”). I do have a ton of time, never said I was “super busy” - I am in my last semester of graduate school. Nothing vehement about my comments, I just find it pretty fun. I am simply pointing out the logical flaws of the article above. @CCMidwest The examples Nicole and I gave were not based on high net worth (though obviously they do have high net worth), they were entrepreneurs/investors who have founded companies that have arguably changed the world (Facebook, Amazon, etc.). If your argument is saying Zuckerberg and Bezos “may not think themselves as successful,” you are grasping at straws. I am focusing on facts - I am focusing on the fact that there is zero statistics to prove the abovementioned “advice” (rather statistics proves the correlation of the reverse). I am just reading lots of sad personal anecdotes of failed relationships, and the said people agreeing to the post because of “feelings”, not facts.
MartyMcFly 2019-06-15 06:59:18
It’s not a logical flaw, though. That’s just the reality of science - that we can never be 100% sure about anything all the time. Hence, the age old adage of “exceptions proving the rule” and in this case, your exceptions are men who married early. Most people who get married before 25 are divorced in four years; that’s not causational but it is correlated. Hence, we may surmise that marrying someone at that age is ill-advised, in general. ‘General’ being the operative word here. That’s all I have time for.
MartyMcFly 2019-06-15 07:18:07
Look, it’s just more nuanced an issue than can be summed up by evidence of a slight increase in income. How many men who date and get girlfriends in their twenties even make it so far as to be married? What countless masses are left broken by failed relationships and the lost resources spent supporting a wife and perhaps children as well? If a man were to take the Alpha 2.0 road; if he’s reading this, then it’s already too late for your argument because he’s not the type to want to settle down early and if he did, more than likely he’d wind up miserable later on. I admire your chutzpah and that of Nicole’s, but at least she was humble enough to bow out when she knew she had fired and missed. Sorry if I was too blunt, but I’ve never been one to mince words before. Not online and not in meatspace. Have a good day, miss.
SabrinaK 2019-06-15 09:06:53
@MartyMcFly Oh dear. Look, we are going in circles. I am saying there is no statistics to support that it’s even “a general rule” that having girlfriend in your 20s will negatively impact your “dreams” (be it business success, entrepreneurship, etc). In fact, correlation supports the opposite, and no one will be able to prove if men who become successful in life achieved success *despite* their girlfriends “shackling” them, or in part *because* of the emotional support they get from and a sense of responsibility towards their girlfriends in their 20s. I (and many people) think the latter, you are convinced it’s the former - I will have to agree to disagree; both of us are arguing with “emotions” and personal anecdotal evidences. It is a logical flaw to bring out a “rule” that has no basis in statistics. I just feel sorry for those who equate pessimism as wisdom, and it’s ridiculous to me such baggage-filled pessimism is presented as “advice” to those in their 20s. It’s unfeasible advice anyways; most men in their 20s will continue to have girlfriends and find happiness and will learn a lot from it, whether you want them to or not. I wish you the best.
Kurt 2019-06-15 09:22:45
@MartyMcFly Sabrina has pointed out significant facts that support the counter-argument to the article and demonstrated the logical flaws and overreach of one of the article's arguments. She hasn't made any leaps of illogic past that, she's just pointed out the flaws in the reasoning. You're making yourself look pretty silly.
Antekirtt 2019-06-15 10:03:11
So, since the thread seems to have derailed so much into claims and counter-claims way outside the article's actual scope, I'll ask a question here. Here's what the article says:
1. Girlfriends are dream-killers. When you get a girlfriend, she’s going to lean on you, hard, to do things like: Spend more money. Go into more debt. Spend less time working on your dreams, goals, and Mission. Lean more on your family members, including your parents. Drain daily emotional energy and willpower. Impose more rules and restrictions on your behaviors and time. Stop having sex with, dating, or even hanging out with other women.Which part of the above do you strongly disagree with? To what degree? Do you just disagree with the title itself, which is clearly, you know, a title, explained by the points below it? Or do you disagree with the seven points themselves? Why not take them one by one and give me the extent of your disagreement. The way I see it, if any of those seven points is true of just 50% (or more) of the girlfriends you'd get in your twenties, then it's already quite a problem, and the point that men have more emotional discipline to keep those problems at bay later in life is indeed a good reason to delay getting an OLTR. If anything, none of those points actually says you'll be earning LESS when you have a serious girlfriend; they even already imply you'll be nudged toward earning more. The article doesn't emphasize this problem, if it claims it to exist at all. Reread the seven points.
Federico 2019-06-15 14:04:04
I think the exceptions to BD's rules are when or while women are MADLY in love with men. Probably contemporary long lasting marriages or married succesful men are explained by that.
C Lo 2019-06-15 23:32:31
Going forward, I'm not participating in sniping, bad logic, or drama. You kids have at it.
Incognito 2019-06-16 01:09:50
I think the exceptions to BD’s rules are when or while women are MADLY in love with men.Haha. "Madly in love" can last anywhere from four weeks to, I'd say, about eighteen months. It's certainly no indication that a woman is going to be supportive. Usually more the opposite. You'd probably do slightly better with a practical, cool, low drama woman who isn't quite so given to such extravagant expressions of passion. Madly in love can be great fun for all involved, but you're building your house on a foundation of sand if you think it's going to last for the long haul.
Sailormack 2019-06-16 03:23:53
I have adopted the habit of reading threads and skipping over the female comments and this has enhanced my enjoyment of reading what is meant to be a men's blog I'm struggling to find the reason why some of you guys are arguing with these bints. Do you not value your most treasured resource, your time?
Tom 2019-06-16 06:40:37
@ Sabrina When BD say something is a rule he doesn't mean it's a scientific rule. It's something based on his experience and is consistent with his life philosophy and his model. so he can establish rules for his system. He is not a scientist so we shouldn't expect statistical proofs for his claims. By the way most so called "scientific facts" or "rules" or "theories" are wrong and doesn't reflect absolute truth anyway(I am a PhD btw). i can give lots of examples but off topic. just pick any biology text book from 10 years ago. it's already mostly trashed. you would read things like "junk DNA" etc. Harvard biology dept was teaching 10 years ago how 90% of DNA is junk and doesn't serve anything etc and they were explaining it from evolutionary perspective etc. now based on recent findings and epigenetic we now know all DNA is beneficial and serves for something. We humans don't even know 1% of the reality or truth. i think we should all be more modest when making strong statements. His simple message(which is correct) is at this age jobs are no longer secure and reliable so you should build your own business(also for income diversification). for men , in the west it's just too risky and doesn't make much sense to commit exclusively to a woman given all women favorable laws and system, and how women behave. he gives great advice for us men and I 99% agree with his model and suggestions. in regards to monogamy, in any age and conditions, men must have sex with multiple women by God's order(some of you may call it nature or universe or whatever and i can also give references from my book but bottom line is the same(nonmonogamy)). so BD is right here as well. SP is wrong, and we shouldn't listen/obey what our women tell us to do(or not to do) if they ask sexual exclusivity etc.. it's natural, moral, and normal.
Blackdragon 2019-06-16 08:15:20
Holy crap this thread is hilarious.
Antekirtt 2019-06-16 09:03:00
By the way most so called “scientific facts” or “rules” or “theories” are wrong and doesn’t reflect absolute truth anyway(I am a PhD btw).I suggest your read this. https://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm tl;dr, science is legit. Not "absolute truth" - but the bar is never that high because hardly anything else gets close either. So in most contexts where you hear "not the absolute truth" claim, there's some BS postmodernism coming, and that itself is as ideologically bankrupt as it gets - what do you know, science theories aren't the only thing that regularly becomes obsolete.
Al 2019-06-16 13:23:19
"It’s unfeasible advice anyways; most men in their 20s will continue to have girlfriends and find happiness and will learn a lot from it, whether you want them to or not." Nonsensical....... Its not unfeasable....just not popular...yet. Most revolutionary ideas take time to take hold until a point come along when its taken for granted as 'obvious'. Your better bet is just to be honest and admit that the advice threatens the feminine imperative and makes you uncomfortable because of that.
Eugene 2019-06-16 15:57:27
She's already called this post "baggage filled pessimism presented as advice" for "misogynistic men who were likely hurt in the past", mainly because it talks about non monogamy (because she's monogamous, non monogamy or thoughts of no gf/bf sounds real bad, and in her view ... any talk of non monogamy is inherently pessimistic because, well it must be), even though this entire post and blog is geared towards masculine freedom and happiness. Given her actual honest views about how she feels about BD, non monogamy in general, the men who read this, and the topic of this post, regardless of what was actually written, how can you actually take anything she says seriously? Answer : you can't. But I'd read her comments very very carefully as reminders... it's a great case study of female solipsism.
al 2019-06-17 21:03:47
"it’s a great case study of female solipsism" I dont see it as just that...........I see the near malevolent intent behind her comments. She is appalled at the idea that men can develop strategies and tactics to stymie the feminine imperative or at least weaken the aspects of it that are most destructive to male health and happiness and eventually female happiness. But she doesn't care about that ..... male health and happiness mean nothing to her. She probably doesn't even believe that men have right to be happy. She only cares about "winning" i.e. maintaining the man-happiness-destroying status quo where men have no clue about female behavior .... its motives and tendencies and thus are ripe for exploitation.
SabrinaK 2019-06-18 04:46:05
Goodness me, this thread took a hilarious turn, I must have ruffled some feathers! Time for me to have some fun: @Tom
we shouldn’t expect statistical proof for his claimsIf Caleb is making money for lifestyle advice, he does need to prove how his advice is reasonably applicable and feasible for all his audience. You should expect statistical proof for his claims.
men must have sex with multiple women by God’s orderYou lost me here. What? @Eugene My personal feelings about non-monogamy has nothing to do with my simple claim that the particular advice espoused in this article is not supported by statistics. I am monogamous, but I have nothing against open relationships if both parties actively want the relationship to be open. What I disapprove of is for a man to insist on non-monogamy when his partner reluctantly goes along with it even when she does not think it to be ideal; that is imposing a man’s happiness paradigm onto a woman. I am monogamous with a man who actively want monogamy; exclusivity was pitched by my fiance first. @Al Oh dear, honey, I have no “malevolent intent,” and I don’t know what the hell you mean by the “feminine imperative.” The only objective I have is happiness for myself and my loved ones, which include both genders. If you think a woman who want to get monogamously married and have children with a man she loves is “malevolent,” you won’t have a harmonious relationship with any women. It is actually Caleb who does not care about female happiness because “women cannot achieve long term happiness anyways.” I think a man and a woman can achieve happiness together, so long as they share a compatible viewpoint in life. Your comments here, together with your insistent complaints about older women’s “sour smell” on last thread, suggest you have some issues to work through to achieve happiness in your woman life. I wish you the best. This will be my last comment addressed to you. @Antekirtt For any decision making, you need to do a cost benefit analysis - this article is incomplete as it lists only the cost and not the benefits. I don’t agree with some of the “cons” of having a girlfriend in 20s (girlfriends make you lean more on your family? really?), and all those cons are far from universal. I think the benefits of being in a serious relationship in your 20s is huge - the emotional stability and support, the experience of learning to communicate with the opposite gender to prolong the relationship, etc. (many men cite their significant other to have “made them a better man” - and the benefits far outweigh the cost of having a girlfriend in your 20s. And statistics (yes, correlation, not causation) supports this, not the opposite.
Shura 2019-06-18 05:59:40
Blackdragon, About all those marriage proposals from MLTRs, did you do something to prevent getting them? Should I feel bad for getting them? I comply with your cardinal rules (4 years experience with scores of women) but some women just can't help falling in love/being clingy. The inevitable difference in feelings brings tears that don't feel very good, as well as reproach ("you only care about money/don't have feelings/fake feelings").
Blackdragon 2019-06-18 07:03:18
About all those marriage proposals from MLTRs, did you do something to prevent getting them? Should I feel bad for getting them?No. Not sure why I would do that. I really liked these women. I wasn't going to do anything to purposely damage the emotional connection.
I comply with your cardinal rules (4 years experience with scores of women)Excellent. Keep it up.
but some women just can’t help falling in love/being clingy.That's fine. There is nothing wrong with that. It means you're doing this correctly.
The inevitable difference in feelings brings tears that don’t feel very good, as well as reproach (“you only care about money/don’t have feelings/fake feelings”).Now that's different. Falling in love with you or getting a little clingy is perfectly fine. Women are allowed to do that and it's perfectly acceptable. It happens. But what you're describing in that last sentence is drama. Drama is unacceptable, period, regardless of the reason, and should result in an instant soft next or at least a "If you're going to insult me I'd rather not spend time with you" type statement (that's actually real and not a threat or a bluff).
Eugene 2019-06-18 07:09:01
@Sabrinak I guess you’re not too in tune with your own statistics, and I’m not sure where on this site or in bd’s books (which I assume you never read) you’ve see him say to “insist” on non monogamy and have their partner “reluctantly” go along with it. It’s yet another example of why I can’t take you seriously, because I don’t think you’ve actually read or know what BD writes or teaches. He has never once said.. get into a relationship with a woman, and then down the line say “hey, I’d like an open relationship”, and then the girl reluctantly agrees with it. BD calls guys like that idiots what we talk about here is the exact opposite of that. This is the paradigm you filter all this through, likely why all this doesn’t since sit well with you. Also, go read up on whether it’s women or men who are more likely to ask their partners to open their relationship, based on “statistics”, then get back to us. Thanks.
Eric C Smith 2019-06-18 11:32:39
skipped over the back and forths. stayed for the principles and those ayn rand level debating skills by BD. had some time to think this over this weekend away from town and experience the differences and the limiting steps to my personal alpha 2.0 equation.
Tom 2019-06-19 02:40:09
@ Sabrina I am not surprised I lost you. I'm sure I lost most guys as well. In the west, being religious almost requires being monogamous or sex negative(even avoiding it), how hilarious. Let me repeat. It's my religious duty and responsibility as man to (not get lazy) search, seek, meet women to have sex with. Believe me it's not easy. But both my nature and religion dictates it. So I do what God wants me to do; have sex with many women:) Thanks BD helping me fulfill my religious and natural requirement. it's a lot of fun too;) I'm sorry for Roosh; he could still follow his true nature and then continue having sex with many women without compromising his journey getting closer to God.
Paul 2019-06-19 08:49:02
Very briefly off topic (kind of related). Do you have a post specifically on "mission finding"? Really struggle with this. It's related in the sense that I see the "mission" providing the backbone for the whole life course and all else falls away without this. Long time lurker and bought one book 🙂
Paul 2019-06-19 08:51:41
... Oh and missing a word "in your life because ignored my advice" Peace.
Blackdragon 2019-06-19 14:33:14
Very briefly off topic (kind of related). Do you have a post specifically on “mission finding”? Really struggle with this. It’s related in the sense that I see the “mission” providing the backbone for the whole life course and all else falls away without this.Lots of guys struggle with that. Just wait until late August...
missing a wordFixed. Thank you.
Lazy Blitz, a Storm of Openers! 2019-06-22 01:00:38
I murdered my 18 to 29 with de facto monogamous girlfriends when I always wanted polyamory and swinging. Also with 5 years university, I mean the 2 first years of fundamental Physics and Matematics science were good and I loved them, but the 3 last about engineering and IT, I hate about everything. And then 6 years as an IT business analyst, in a big IT corporation with hundreads of other PhDs, engineering and business school graduates. I hated the office with a passion from day 1 and the work felt boring as fuck. I think your advice should not only be no girlfriend before 30 but also add to that any year fucked up with a girlfriend before that. For instance I fucked 11 years before my 30s. So I won't have a girlfriend before 30+11=41, if ever.
Lazy Blitz, a Storm of Openers! 2019-06-22 02:01:36
I think the benefits of being in a serious relationship in your 20s is huge – the emotional stability and supportLMFAO - what a joke! The reality is the complete opposite: most girlfriends bring chaos, drama and drain emotional energy. Now for a woman to have a boyfriend whe she is in her 20s, yes indeed, the benefit is huge and indeed she indeed will gain some emotional stability and support. Especially if the man is older than her. This comment clearly shows where your initial agrument was coming from: gender myopia.
Lazy Blitz, a Storm of Openers! 2019-06-22 02:20:25
That being said, there always are exceptions to the rule, and maybe your are one of them, that's great! But in short, I will reframe your argument as "BD is correct, howeger there are a few exceptions of unusually stable, very low drama and open relationship compatible girlfriends who can actually help a man even in his 20s to achieve his dreams and goals" in the context of an OLTR. One way she could help is by finding other girls to have 3 somes with. Another way is by her being emotionally and economically independent, while splitting some of the costs (thus sparing some money), and encouraging him to do whatever he wants whenever he wants, including without her, including travels, business and sex, while adopting a materially minimalist lifestyle. I think it's quite clear at this point that women checking this list are unicorns for men in their 20s. Hopefully you are one of these unicorns 😉 And yes, having sex with at least 2 women in any 6 week period of time, preferrably in any given week, is a minimal requirement for a man's happiness. There is nothing problematic with this concept, whereas there are countless problems tied to the concept of monogamy.
Picard 2019-06-22 09:26:05
BD Im 24 and I have an oltr for 3 years now.Im thinking of breaking up with her in order to use my time to start a side business. The only problem i have is : i have the balls to break up with her and i will do it,but im afraid that i will be longing for her,because she is a good ,low drama oltr and i dont have a reason to break up with her.(i only soft nexted her 3 times).I dont have oneitis ,i have FBs on the side and i have the skills to sarge for new girls. Should i try to convert her to a mltr and spend less time with her or should i just dump her and enter NC? Do you think it will take me longer to get over her,compared with a situation when a girl dumps the guy and not the other way around? How long your son has been with his monogamous gf and did he got over her? Do you think I will be longing over her because she,as a girl is a very good oltr?Have you been in a situation like this? Greetings from denmark!
Blackdragon 2019-06-22 19:48:15
i have the balls to break up with her and i will do it,but im afraid that i will be longing for herThat means you don't have the balls to break up with her. The mindset you're demonstrating is exactly why men your age shouldn't have girlfriends.
I dont have oneitis ,i have FBs on the side and i have the skills to sarge for new girls.Great. Then it should be no problem for you to dump / downgrade her then. Let's see if you actually do it. I won't be holding my breath.
Should i try to convert her to a mltr and spend less time with her or should i just dump her and enter NC?You could attempt to downgrade her, but downgrading an OLTR is extremely difficult. You might just have to end it and then circle back to her 6-24 months later as an MLTR or FB.
Do you think it will take me longer to get over her,compared with a situation when a girl dumps the guy and not the other way around?No. If you're 24 it's going to be very hard for you either way.
How long your son has been with his monogamous gfAbout 3 years.
and did he got over her?Yes, very quickly. But he's not typical. He's also older than you and has a strong set of long-term goals he's passionate about.
Do you think I will be longing over her because she,as a girl is a very good oltr?No. I think you'll be longing for her because that's exactly what happens when really young guys like you get girlfriends.
Have you been in a situation like this?No. I purposely did not get a girlfriend (who I then married) until I was 25. When I divorced her 9 years later (because 25 is way too young to have a girlfriend or wife) I was glad to go. Since then I've been full, outcome independent Alpha 2.0, so no, I've never had that situation.
SabrinaK 2019-06-23 01:31:24
@Picard Genuinely curious, why would you breakup with your girlfriend if you have “no reason to”? Is your girlfriend completely against your starting your part time business? Won’t she be a sounding board for you to bounce your idea off to, someone who would believe in you? If she is completely not on board with your plans, it’s probably better for both of you to part ways - you will be fine, you are young. But if she’s cool with your plans, keeping the status quo of a 3-year relationship with a girl you love who keeps you happy and emotionally stable seems like a much better idea than to break up with her for....no reason.
Picard 2019-06-23 03:26:50
@ SABRINA K
why would you breakup with your girlfriend if you have “no reason to”?Because i have no time. I do taekwondo 3 times a week.I have 2 new FBs every month that i dump after seeing them for 3 times(its an oltr rule).I work full time in marketing. I dont have the brain power to find a niche,start a side business and have an oltr at the same time.I cannot focus on both.If i dump her i have more "mental freedom" and lower stress when i will star my business. A valid argument that BD has about not having a gf/oltr in your 20s is that:you lose more time,energy and willpower.
Science has confirmed that you only have a finite amount of emotional energy and willpower in any 24 hour period. Many days a week, you have a good amount of these limited resources sucked up by your girlfriend.I already know this stuff from a book called THE ONE THING,that i read 2 years ago. I want to start my side business part time and then after a year quit my job and go full time on my business and if i dump her it will be easier to achieve this,because i have more time,more willpower.
Is your girlfriend completely against your starting your part time business?She doesnt know that i want to start a business,nor my family.I like to "keep it for myself ".If she would know she will be supportive .
Won’t she be a sounding board for you to bounce your idea off to, someone who would believe in you?This is Disney:)). I dont care if somebody believes in me or not, if she would know, she would be supportive ,but it will make no difference for me,this doesnt gives me motivation .
SabrinaK 2019-06-23 04:37:54
@Picard You genuinely do not care if someone believes in you or care about you? You don’t think a support system is not necessary for your success? Either you are a complete anomaly or you are grossly underestimating your emotional needs. But - your life.
Picard 2019-06-23 05:05:36
You genuinely do not care if someone believes in you or care about you?There is a big difference between somebody believing in me and somebody caring about me. I dont care if somebody believes in me,in the sense that if my oltr or my father believes i will become a millionaire or not,it will make no difference to me. On the other hand,I Care if somebody cares about me or not,this is very different and this is very important.
You don’t think a support system is not necessary for your success?A support system provided by another person is an external solution and is not useful ,nor healthy in my mind. BD has 2 great articles about external and internal solutions. What would happen if i use my oltr as my support system for my success and one day im dumped by her out of the blue?Or i use my father as my support system and he dies?
John 2019-06-28 08:41:58
I'm privileged to be in a mastermind with solely 6-7 figure earner that own online businesses which all qualify as alpha 2.0 businesses. The majority of those guys there have traditional girlfriends, funny enough the handful of 7 fig earners are all married (they all got married in their mid twenties). How the hell can you claim yourself alpha if you cannot put your own girlfriend into place? You just freakin tell her that there is no option for you besides building your own business. And if she disagrees, you show her the door. And honestly if you bend your dreams to keep your girl happy your life will suck forever and you will never have a successful business in your life. You have to set the expectations right from the get go. I still remember how my first casual girlfriend tried to get me to commit. She called me in the night and threatened to kill herself twice. On the third time she did that I called the police and told them that she wants to commit suicide. I can tell you she didn't dare to do that again...
Kurt 2019-07-01 14:48:15
@BD If one wants to have kids is key on this one to me. And if so, I still say start early (20's) and get it over with!! If you don't have a GF before 30, odds are you may not have kids until 35 or 40! Fuck that lol. I will be 44 Saturday. Was married for 19 years and got divorced in 2014. We had 2 kids, ages 21 and 13 now. So, I have been using your system for 2-4 years (more so last 2 years w/ fucking awesome results) and having loads of sex and fun too. My son is off in the Marines in DC and now my daugther is w her mom full-time after being with me full-time the 1st two years of the divorce. So, I am living the life of a bachelor now kinda (have a Jeep too versus family car lol) and got me a small apartment that has a pool 10 feet from my door and I am 4 miles from my daughter. I run my biz from my apartment or laptop and plan on getting a RV or travel trailer too soon (will get a home again but prob later on in my 50s). But I could not imagine that amount of booty I would be getting if I bought me a new nice home or made double what I do now lmao. It would be insane. I digress. Now, I did not finish college either since I got married so young. But that made me learn to be more street smart too and learn how to do shit on the dime and learn on my own too. I have loads of free time to Date and/or grow a biz or 2 as if I am 18 again virtually. ==== Now, lets look at the flip side - I have a younger brother who is 41. We are total opposites in every way. He could literally be a poster child for a Beta male. He went to college and did everything the book way. He currently has 3 girls - ages 3, 7, and 12. Married a Dom wife that wears the pants. If I could loan him 1 of my balls, I surely would. He is trying to avoid a Divorce currently. He has a job at a company that makes about $50K or so and been their 6 years. (boooorrrringggg....) But when they separated briefly he tried to date and OMFG lmao. What a nightmare he had compared to me. It made my divorce shit look fun compared to his. I ask myself, if I were to do this all over again, would I choose to wait to have kids at 30 or same way I did in my early 20s? I still say I would do it the same way because now I have all my 40s and 50s to have fun. He will be around 60 to 65 before his youngest girl leaves home, if he is lucky. So, I say if you want kids, get that shit done with and over with ASAP!!!
Stefanos 2019-07-14 14:32:40
BD, where the hell were you when I was 22 and single. I found out about this blog in august 2017 and still follow it to this day. Unfortunately I was already married and had a kid by then, so the damage was done. now I’m almost 26, still married I can use some solid BD advice
Donald 2020-02-16 14:38:11
"One third of American men aged 18 to 29 didn’t have sex once in all of 2018. " "Nearly 60 per cent of modern teenagers are staying virgins until after they graduate, a complete reversal of the 1990s, when a majority of teenagers had had sex by prom night." Younger guys have less sex today, because they don't have girlfriends. It's funny but the stuff you teach applies more to older people than younger ones. I firmly believe that it's easier as a 35 year old to get a 20 year old FB than a 25 year old. Because if you are too close to her age she will see a chance in a relationship with you and she is less like to only wanting something casual with you. Also older people have more life experiences. I tell you it's not so easy to sell your stuff to 20-25 year olds because they are still caught up in a disney world. As a millanial I think you should stick to Gen X's
joelsuf 2020-02-22 11:12:11
Younger guys have less sex today, because they don’t have girlfriends.Um no way my dude. Younger dudes have less sex today because younger chicks aren't attracted to them and aren't "forced" to get with them like back in the day. They're attracted to dudes who are focused who just happen to be over 35 on average, have much more access to them than back in the day, and aren't getting shamed for being with dudes who are 10-15 years older than them as much. GF =/= sex. I know plenty of dudes who have GFs who are dry for months. Ages vary but it is like this no matter what. GFs and TMMs are for betas and omegas who have given up on life only. A dude doesn't need to give up on life (by being monogamous) in order to get sex. They need to stay focused on their mission, hunt like crazy (15-20 invites per week, perhaps a little less if the dude just wants to get meh or bad looking chicks lol), and of course looks max like any other dude. Cuz different than BD, I don't think anybody should get in a serious relationship for any reason. We're approaching an age where it is more important than ever to enjoy your own company (and have the ability to do Monk Mode if necessary) and being in a serious relationship means that you are still looking for someone else to complete you. Not good for anybody no matter their gender or age.
I tell you it’s not so easy to sell your stuff to 20-25 year olds because they are still caught up in a disney world.I do agree, Crush Culture (*my* term for the process of pushing Disney onto others) is pushed on the under 30 crowd A LOT so yeah I can imagine BD not being able to reach them. But he should still do what he can because they need it the most.
Blackdragon 2020-02-22 17:51:35
Younger guys have less sex today, because they don’t have girlfriends.Completely incorrect. I went to high school back in the 1980s when young guys were having tons of sex with no internet and no Tinder, only a tiny percentage of these guys had girlfriends. You have sex first, then get a girlfriend. Not the other way around. I know you know that. Younger guys are having less sex today because they're either A) pussies, B) lazy, or C) low-testosterone. Girlfriend status has nothing to do with it.
I firmly believe that it’s easier as a 35 year old to get a 20 year old FB than a 25 year old.That might be true. That 25 year-old can still get laid. And he shouldn't have a girlfriend.
As a millanial I think you should stick to Gen X’sAnd as a Gen X I think you should stop making bullshit excuses for your problems like many Millennials do.