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49 Objections To Non-Monogamy – Refuted
This article is going to make a percentage of you very angry. I’m just warning you now. I have a lot of experience discussing this particular topic, and I know from experience that a lot of you more traditional, religious conservative type guys, or beta males in a new relationship, or recently married guys—a bunch of you are going to be really upset by the end of this article. Which is okay; just be aware of it.
-By Caleb Jones
There are 49 items on this list, and we’re going to go through all of them. I’m going to use a list I published about six years ago, but I’ve updated it since then, and that’s what we’ll be using today as a basis.
Covering Some Basics
Before I get into the list of 49 objections and their answers, I need to cover some basics about what I’m saying.
What I’m saying is this: Long-term sexual monogamy does not work. Human beings were never designed for it, and if you talk to biologists, they will tell you exactly that. They will say it very quietly because a lot of them are married too, but they’ll tell you that human beings are not monogamous creatures. They are pair-bonding creatures, just not monogamous ones.
When I say I’m against monogamy, I’m not saying I’m against pair-bonding. Pair-bonding is fine; if you want to have a girlfriend or wife, if you want to settle down, if you want to have kids, that’s great! Do all those things—and have sex with other women on the side. Pair-bonding does not require monogamy.
I’m pair-bonded; I’m married. And I have sex with other women on the side pretty much every week. I also have children. So I agree with the traditional conservatives when they say that a couple raising kids together in a core family is best for society. That is correct. I’m not against that; I have that myself.
The problem is making the promise that you’re never going to have sex with any other woman for the rest of your life and then expecting your wife to make the same promise on her end. That’s stupid. We were never designed for this. The real divorce rate is somewhere around 76%, and some people argue that that figure is low.
The other thing is this: When I talk about sexual monogamy not working, I am talking about the Western world in the 21st century. I’m not talking about 1952 or what worked back in the 1700s. Occasionally, I’ll get some traditional guys saying, “What are you talking about? Monogamy has worked great for hundreds of years.”
I have news for you: You don't live hundreds of years ago. You live in the collapsing Western world in the 21st century, and unfortunately, in this era, long-term sexual monogamy does not work. Plus, we could argue that monogamy didn’t work back then either because men were cheating on their wives and women put up with it.
If you are married and cheating, you are not monogamous and you have proven my point. But if you live outside of the Western world, some of the statistics I’m about to present may not apply. I am not talking about those regions.
So to recap: Monogamy is bad; pair-bonding is good; and I’m only talking about the Western world in the 21st century.
These are the objections I get when I talk about how bad monogamy is for us. These are listed in no particular order.
1. Having someone to care for you in your old age
What did I just say about the real divorce rate? It’s about 76%. That means there’s an outrageous chance your marriage will not make it to old age. You will get divorced before you get old. So if you want someone to take care of you in your old age, get traditionally monogamously married in your old age.
My dad just got married about two years ago, and I was fine with that. In fact, I was the emcee at his wedding. Why was I okay with this? Because he’s 80—he will die before he gets divorced. By the way, in terms of someone taking care of you in your old age, he married someone who is a nurse and 20 years younger than him. Great!
So if you really want to marry someone so someone will take care of you when you're really old, wait until you’re really old to get traditionally monogamously married. By the time someone cheats, if that even happens, one of you will be dead.
2. I don’t want to get STDs.
I have been consistently non-monogamous for 13 years, having sex on a weekly basis with multiple women with no dry spells. I just got my STD test back six weeks ago, and I’m perfectly clean (and I get tested for everything). How do you explain that?
They have these really cool things called “condoms” you can put on your dick and have sex with women, and they greatly reduce the transmission of STDs. They have these other things called “blood tests.” I go in twice a year and get a blood test for everything under the sun; it’s just part of my routine.
Don’t forget that women can get tested too. There are mechanisms in place that allow you to be a responsible adult and make sure you don’t get STDs. I’ve never had a serious problem with one in my life.
3. I can’t trust my partner to use a condom every time they have sex with someone else.
So you’re in a serious relationship with someone you can’t trust? If that’s the case, you have much bigger problems than monogamy. You would not be in a serious relationship with someone unless you trust them.
4. Not settling down and/or never getting married and/or never having kids is selfish.
One of the biggest things people are worried about in terms of the future of the human race is overpopulation and/or environmental damage to the Earth. That means getting married and having kids is one of the most selfish things you can do. Don’t tell me that you want to have kids because you want to help the world—you want to have kids because you want kids.
5. Monogamy is the best way to raise children.
If this were the 1950s and the divorce rate was 7%, you would be correct. Is that true today? No, the divorce rate is 76% or so, depending on various factors. That means if you get married, there’s a 76% chance you will get divorced and fuck those kids up. This excuse doesn’t work in a society with a 76% divorce rate.
Granted, that excuse does work in areas or cultures that have a very low divorce rate. (What few there are these days.)
6. That divorce rate applies to dumb guys with bad taste who don’t know how to pick a quality woman. I am intelligent, and I will screen for a woman who will make a great wife and mother.
Wonderful! Please give me the names of 10 men in the Red Pill community or the Manosphere world who did that and it worked, guys “screened” for a perfect wife and mother, and now it’s 17 years later and they’re still married and happy.
I have a feeling you can name one or two, if that. When you use the exception to the rule to make a point, you’ve just proven mine. Out of the 50 or 60 married couples you’re acquainted with, you know two or three who've made it work. Thanks for proving my point.
This is what’s called Guy-Disney. “That won’t happen to me. That happens to everyone else.” But the reason that happens to so many people is because everyone says that. And there’s no data that I’ve seen to suggest men have mastered the art of screening for the perfect woman in the modern era.
7. There is one thing a man doesn’t get unless he’s married: a commitment.
That was true a long time ago when the divorce rate was around 7%. Today, a woman in the Western world can divorce you whenever she wants for any reason she wants, and she will be supported by the law and all of her friends and family. Traditional marriage is no longer a commitment—not in the Western world.
8. Having a bunch of open relationships is too much work.
I get this excuse a lot. The Alpha Male 2.0 model means you are having sex with at least two women—two. Is two a lot?
If you’re having sex with two women, that’s non-monogamy and you’re covered. So you could have one girl you’re dating, like a serious girlfriend, and one FB on the side, and that’s all you need. You can see your FB once a month if you want.
This negative fantasy that in order to be non-monogamous, you have to be banging 12 women at all times is just silliness. Of course, you don’t want to do that long term. One main girl and one on the side is accomplishable by any man reading this blog. I’m not suggesting anything that’s impossible or only available to the super-wealthy.
9. I don’t believe in cheating.
Good, neither do I. I have never cheated on a woman in my life. I have never promised monogamy and then had sex (or gotten sexual) with another woman behind that woman’s back—I’m one of the few men I know who can say this.
It’s not because I’m this honorable, ethical guy with a lot of self-control. It’s because I don’t get monogamous. I’m not stupid enough (or dishonest enough) to make the promise of monogamy for life. I state quite the opposite: I think you’re fantastic, but I’m a guy, and occasionally, I’ll go get some on the side. I’ll be careful, I’ll get tested, I’ll use condoms, and I’ll be discreet, blah, blah blah. Regardless, I don’t promise monogamy, and therefore, I don’t cheat.
Cheating doesn’t happen when you’re both allowed to have sex on the side. Cheating is promising monogamy and then going back on it. I don’t recommend or endorse cheating, and I never have. The Alpha Male 2.0 doesn’t need to cheat. Cheating is for beta males and Alpha Males 1.0.
10. She will complain that I haven’t asked her to be my girlfriend yet.
“If I date her for months and months, but I’m also dating other women, she’ll eventually not like that.”
That is correct. If you go here you will find my book, The Ultimate Open Relationships Manual. In that book, I teach a very strongly field-tested system in which you bring the woman through four phases, and there are ways you can manage this need for her to be more serious, be your girlfriend, or whatever. It’s part of the process I teach, and it’s not a big deal.
I’ve had numerous MLTRs over the past 13 years who dated me for years, and even when some of them wanted something more serious, it’s a workable model.
11. A girl cannot fully trust and commit to you if you keep having sex with other girls.
Millions of men all over the Western world who have OLTRs—girlfriends or wives—would disagree with you. My wife, Pink Firefly, fully trusts me and is fully committed to me. We’ve been together for six years and married for three. There are millions of other men who have done this, and they’re pretty quiet about it because they’re scared of Societal Programming, but it’s not a problem if you structure the relationship correctly—if you’re an adult, if you’re trustworthy, and if you don’t lie to her. If it’s clear what you’re doing, it’s workable.
Most guys who do non-monogamy wrong, and that’s the problem there. That was the impetus behind my starting this company many years ago; I saw a lot of people in non-monogamous relationships, and they had all kinds of drama and chaos. If you follow Alpha 2.0 models, you won’t have any of that.
12. I don’t have time to date all my girls and keep looking for new girls every day.
It’s like I said earlier: You don’t need lots of girls. Just TWO. Just have two women and you’re non-monogamous. Have one main girl and one side girl—or two side girls, if you want to be really casual.
I also teach in my models that you only see her once a week unless she’s your OLTR. Then you have sufficient time on your hands. Get this thought out of your head that you have to bang a lot of girls. You don’t.
13. All this stuff is probably true and I agree; monogamy probably doesn’t work, but I just can’t handle it if the woman in my life is out having sex with other guys.
This is probably the biggest objection of them all.
First, if she’s young (early to mid-twenties), yes, she’s going to fuck other guys. Should you care if you’re dating a friggin' 19-year-old and she’s fucking other guys on the side? She’s a 19-year-old girl! I hate to break it to you, but you shouldn’t be getting into serious, committed relationships with 19-year-olds. I’ve talked about this plenty. If you do, you’re stupid, even if you’re 19 yourself. The last thing you want to do is try to form a serious, long-term relationship with someone in her late teens or early twenties. That is a recipe for disaster.
Now, if they’re in their early to mid-thirties, are they going to be out banging other dudes? Sometimes yes, but generally no. They don’t want to. ASD—anti-slut defense—rises as a woman’s age rises and it spikes at age 33.
My wife is 40 years old and a practicing Christian. Do you really think she spends her time on Tinder or at dance clubs looking for guys to fuck? Older women generally don’t do this (and yes, there are always exceptions). The data tells us that women’s sexual patterns are dynamic, and they spike here and there. Even if she hooks up with another guy, it’s not something she’ll want to do on a regular basis.
Guys who operate under Objection #13 here assume that women’s sexual patterns operate just like men’s, and they don’t. The next answer to this is that by the time it happens three or four times, you don’t give a shit anymore, especially if she’s younger. It’s not as big a deal as you think.
Also, you shouldn’t be so focused on what your woman is doing when you’re not around. You should be focused on yourself, your mission, your goals, and your career plans. I have noticed that guys who tend to be jealous are typically guys who don’t have a lot going on in their lives. Set some fucking goals and get excited about your life.
Finally, don’t forget that her occasionally having sex with other guys is one negative that you’re trading for 15 or 20 positives. Keep some perspective here. The ability to have sex whenever you want, to not have your balls controlled by a woman, to be protected from breakups and divorces—the list of positives goes on and on and on. Weigh all that against the one negative.
14. My girl is Not Like The Rest™
I get this one a lot. This is an excuse used by guys who are players and pick-up artists. They’ve had sex with 37 women (like that’s a lot), and the one they’re with now isn’t like any of the rest.
Let me explain something to you. By having sex with all these women, you have now established a precedent in your psyche that you need to fuck a lot of women. So if you try to get monogamous with her, what’s going to happen? You’re going to cheat.
I have worked with numerous pick-up artists / players who tried this. They banged a lot of women, they found one who “wasn’t like the rest,” they got oneitis, committed to monogamy, and within a few months, they were back on Tinder and back in the clubs fucking other girls. They got caught, drama ensued, and they broke up or got divorced.
It’s not relevant whether a particular woman is capable of monogamy—YOU are not... which means the monogamy will fail.
15. What happens if she falls in love with another guy she has sex with and leaves me?
Read this article. The summary is that in a properly managed OLTR relationship, I have literally never seen this happen, not even once. And I have talked to hundreds of people who have relationships like this.
The times I’ve seen something like this occur, it is always when the open relationship is blazingly mismanaged. It happens when the men allow their girlfriends/wives to have relationships with other men, to have long, emotional talks on the phone with other men, to go on trips with other men, and so on.
In an OLTR relationship, there are restrictions on what a woman can do. She can hook up with other men using condoms, but that’s it. No dating, no going on trips, no spending the night, and when you have that model, I have literally never seen a woman leave a man in an OLTR for another guy she had sex with. (I’m sure, statistically, it’s probably happened out there somewhere, but I’ve never seen it.)
16. My parents, close friends, and family won’t accept me if I’m having sex with other women.
Fuck ‘em! Who cares? Do you think my mom liked me doing this? No. I’ve already talked about this in my YouTube videos. Tell them to fuck off. If your friends really have a problem with this, they weren’t your friends to begin with. Get some balls!
17. What if open marriages and relationships became a societal norm and everyone did this?
Read this. This is a completely philosophical, mental-masturbation discussion and it is not relevant to you.
Second, there will always be needy, religious, irrational, and low-sex-drive people who try to make monogamy work even if non-monogamy became the cultural norm.
And I think it will because at some point, it will be literally impossible to have a monogamous relationship; due to technological growth. You won’t be able to hide anything anymore.
18. If you find the right person, you’ll never want to have sex with anyone else.
Show me five men who have been married more than 25 years who have never wanted to have sex with a woman besides their wives. Good luck with that.
As I’ve talked about in my books, the part of the brain that desires sex and the part of the brain dealing with love are two completely different sections that serve completely different functions. Sex does not have anything to do with love unless you choose it to be so. People think sex and love should be one thing, but that’s bullshit right-wing societal programming.
I’m amazed that I have to point this out to be people in the modern era.
19. Non-monogamy puts pressure and stress on women.
And monogamy doesn’t? What do you think monogamy, traditional marriage, living with a man full time, and having children will do?
As I’ve discussed at this blog many times, women will be stressed and pissed off no matter what you do. Whether you’re monogamous or not, they will find something to complain about—it’s just part of being a woman and it’s part of the female psyche. It’s not something they can control; it can suck to be a woman in that respect.
20. Her friends will give her shit about dating me.
Yep, some of them will. So what? I’ve had numerous relationships over the years in which her friends wanted to know why they were with me when I was fucking other women, and they stuck with me anyway. If you follow the correct framework, they won’t leave just because their friends don’t like it.
Women date and fuck guys all the time that their friends don’t like. That’s a normal part of being a girl.
21. I hate using condoms. With monogamy, I don’t have to use one.
As most of you know, I have tracked my entire dating life since 2008 on spreadsheets in great detail, and about a year ago, I looked through the list of all the women I’ve had sex with under these non-monogamous models. I marked the ones who got to the point where eventually we didn’t need to use condoms with me, and the number was large. (And yes, the number of women I’ve used condoms with is also large.)
She can reach a point where she becomes a trusted partner and where, after building a long track record of responsible behavior, you take the condom off. You can do this if you’re adults about it. Be responsible. Use condoms on new women, please.
So non-monogamy doesn’t mean you’re using condoms for the rest of your life.
22. I kind of like drama. I kind of like the ups and downs of monogamous relationships. I’m an emotional guy and I kind of get off on that.
Then enjoy your drama and pain, and I’ll be over here being happy. And don’t come to me in six months complaining about all the drama you have.
That’s what happens with these guys: They wonder why I’m so big on not having drama, and then they complain about all the drama they have. It’s interesting to see the number of men who "kind of like drama" complain about the drama just a few weeks after they said it.
23. I tried this open relationship stuff once or twice and it doesn’t work. After two or three months, women demand monogamy or leave.
That means your technique is off. You’re not doing it right. You need to get The Ultimate Open Relationships Manual. Follow its instructions and it will work for you, I promise (or your money back!). Thousands of guys have done it.
24. A-ha! You’re selling stuff! Now I can’t trust a word you say!
That’s right, you shouldn’t trust anything I say. You should verify everything I say with your own information and your own data. I’ve been talking about this stuff online for 11 years; I didn’t just arrive on the scene here. I’ve worked with thousands of people on these topics; these are field-tested models that actually work. Give them a try before saying they don’t work.
And yes, please use a thing called Google and verify what I say if something doesn’t sound right to you.
25. I’m going to get social media drama like my relationship status, her seeing other women on there, etc.
Not if you do this correctly. I have dated scores of women under these models and the grand total number of times I had drama on my social media because of this is two. That's two instances in 13 years, and both of them were about 10 years ago.
So no, you will not have this problem if you do this stuff correctly.
26. I want to have a relationship/marriage like my grandparents had.
Your parents and grandparents were products of a very different era in which men and women were conditioned for different behaviors. You were not born and raised in the 1910s.
Also, your grandparents were raised in a society in which divorce was heavily restricted, both legally and culturally. Today, divorce is legally and socially encouraged. When a woman decides to divorce a man today, all her friends and family circle up around her and support her. That’s the opposite of many decades ago when many people said, “No, you can’t get a divorce. Go back to him!” That is the era we’re living in.
Also, your grandparents (who are still married) don’t have sex very often. Don’t forget about that. I love how people romanticize how their grandparents are still married after 50 years. Grandpa’s not getting laid—unless he’s cheating!
Finally, your grandparents argue a lot if they’re still married after many decades. Don’t forget about that, either.
Don’t romanticize this shit, and don’t forget that you don’t exist in the world your forefathers experienced many years ago.
27. What about love? You can’t truly love someone if you’re having sex with other people, or if they’re having sex with other people.
Think back on something. Was there ever a time in your life when you were in love with Person A and you had sex with Person B? Whatever the scenario consisted of, you were in love with one and having sex with the other.
Here’s the question: Did having sex with Person B make you love Person A less?
No, it didn’t. Love and sex are two different things that have nothing to do with each other.
28. I don’t want to be hanging around dance clubs and picking up chicks when I’m 45 years old!
Great, neither do I. I’ve been in my forties for a long time; do you think I go to dance clubs?
There’s this really cool system called “online dating,” and through online dating, you can just pick up women using your phone. It’s great, you should look into it.
29. Abolishing monogamy? Oh my God! That’s one of the goals of feminism!!!
If those feminists want me to have a marriage in which I can have sex with a 19-year-old cheerleader on the side whenever I want, then that is one aspect of feminism I wholeheartedly support.
However, I suspect that’s not what the angry feminists have in mind. They probably envision a situation in which they can have sex with other men, but their men can’t have sex with other women. I would be against that; both parties should be able to play around or the relationship won’t last or be harmonious. So that goes both ways.
In the Western world, you cannot have a relationship in which one person is allowed to fuck other people, but the other one isn’t. I’ve never seen that work longer than eight or nine months. You’re not going to be able to pull that off in the Western world.
30. When you’re dating, this stuff is fine, but no one actually does this while married and raising kids.
No one? You mean like me? And millions of other men in similar marriages all over the world?
Yeah, no. Stupid.
31. Traditional legal marriage offers financial advantages such as estate tax benefits and Social Security benefits.
You only get those benefits if you stay married into your old age. What did I say earlier? The real divorce rate in the U.S. is 76%. That means you will get divorced before such time as you are eligible for these long-term benefits.
Betting your financial security on a system with a 24% success rate is shockingly bad financial management.
If you want to get married specifically for these benefits, then do so once you’re old.
32. Most marriages fail, fine. But most small businesses also fail, yet you encourage men to start their own businesses. You’re not being consistent.
Read this. Even if you’re the perfect partner or spouse, you’re only 50% of the equation. You could do literally everything perfectly and your odds of success could still be around 50%. The other 50% is a woman over whom you do not have direct control.
When you start a business, is it only 50% under your control? No, it’s about 95% under your control. The only part of your business you don’t control is the economy, and even at that, you can pivot in your business and focus on sectors of the economy that are doing well.
By raising this objection, you are not comparing mathematical apples to apples. You have far more control over your own business than you do over your marriage.
33. I wanna know that my kids are mine!
They have this really great invention called a "paternity test." Might want to look it up. They have another one called an NIPP (Non-Invasive Prenatal Paternity test) where they can actually check paternity before the baby is born, and you usually know the same day whether the baby is yours.
Other than that, you can buy a paternity test at Walgreens for $20.
Again, this is not the 1800s.
I love these stupid excuses. We have technology today that handles a lot of these problems.
34. Monogamous relationships are better for more traditional people.
Atheists have lower divorce rates than religious people. Look it up.
35. I know so-and-so who has been married for three, five, 12, 15 years, and he’s made marriage work. So I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
Traditional monogamous marriage means you’ve committed for the rest of your life. So if he’s been married for seven years, you have no idea if he’s made marriage work. Do you know whether he’s fucked other women throughout that marriage? Do you know for sure whether his wife has never gotten sexual with anyone else during that marriage? Do you know for sure he's going to stay married to that woman for the next 30 years?
I have been shocked in the past by the number of marriages that looked great on social media, but behind the scenes, one (or both) of them is getting cheating, or they’re fighting and screaming and throwing shit at each other, and you have no idea whether that marriage is “working.”
Moreover, is traditional marriage the kind of thing that lasts seven years and then you get divorced? No, you need to wait 25-35 years and then see if it works. My parents just got divorced a few years ago after 46 years of marriage. Did they make it work? (Ask my dad how happy he is about that.)
36. Monogamy works fine in places like India.
Like I said at the beginning, I’m talking about the Western world. By the way, the divorce rate in India is spiking. Same with China and all over Asia. Pretty soon, there will be nowhere in the world without high divorce rates.
37. This 76% divorce rate stuff is bullshit. If you wait until you’re 30, 35, or 40 to get married and/or you marry an older woman, or a college graduate, or have your wedding on the winter solstice when all the planets are aligned, the divorce rate drops to 44%, 39%, 30%...
Read this article about all the the crazy shit you’d have to do, statistically, to make truly lower the odds of any future divorce. The things on the list included marrying a virgin (good luck), marrying an Asian woman, marrying a college graduate who makes a lot of money but makes less than you, and a bunch of other crazy shot. You’re not going to do all that.
But okay, imagine you did. Imagine you did everything on the list, and now you’re looking at a divorce rate of “only” 30% instead of 76%. Would you buy a washer and dryer set that you knew had a 30% failure rate? No, you wouldn’t. But for some reason, you’re going to bet your entire financial future on something with “only” a 30% failure rate?
Five percent, maybe I would. But at 30%, you’re insane.
38. There have been studies to suggest that a woman’s sexual desire for a man resets and is strong again when she has your baby. If you made a brand new baby with her every two or three years, you could make long-term monogamy work.
So to be with her for the rest of your life, you’d have to have 15 babies with her? Do you want 15 kids? Can you afford 15 kids? Is she physically able to have 15 kids?
You’re living in a goddamn fantasy world. Please calm down and turn on your brain.
39. I’ve been married and monogamous for X-number of years and everything is perfect. I don’t know what you’re talking about.
As I said above, being married for X-number of years does not mean you’ve made marriage work. Come back when you've been married 50 years. And if you’ve ever been sexual with any other woman in any way for the entire duration of your marriage, you’ve proven my point that monogamy can’t work.
The same goes for your wife—she can’t have been sexual with anyone else for the entire length of your marriage. If she has, it hasn’t "worked."
If I sat down with you and really started asking you some real questions about your marriage, I suspect I’d be able to find some things that were really wrong with it. Maybe not, but most likely.
40. If you’re an Alpha Male, have a strong game, use great relationship technique, and have a strong, solid frame, you can keep your monogamous woman interested in your forever and you’ll never get divorced.
Can you keep a monogamous woman interested in you for longer than you could if you were a total beta male? Yes. Can you keep her sexually interested in you and non-bored with you forever? No.
So if you’re talking about serial monogamy, that can actually work, but that’s another conversation. But would that make you happy in the long term?
41. Monogamous relationships fail, but open relationships won’t last either.
This is true. All relationships are temporary. The difference is that in a non-monogamous model, the damage you suffer as a man is far less than it would be in a monogamous relationship. If I got divorced tomorrow, I wouldn’t lose a penny and my sex life would continue unabated. Now, it wouldn’t be a happy day, by any means. But my sex and financial life would be fine.
If you got divorced from a traditionally monogamous marriage today, you’re FUCKED! A lot of guys never even recover from these things.
You could make the argument that no relationship lasts forever. The difference is the damage you sustain when it ends.
42. No woman over 30 would ever agree to a relationship like this.
Well, let’s see. I met Pink Firefly when she was 34, we were married when she was 37, so… you’re a dumbass.
43. No intelligent woman would ever agree to a relationship like this.
Incorrect. I have dated women with genius-level IQs, women who made six-figure incomes, and women who went to Ivy League schools under these models.
44. The stats show that married people live longer.
There are two answers to this. The first is, I’m not against marriage. I am married, if you’ll recall. I’m not against marriage; I'm against sexual monogamy and getting financially raped in a divorce. If you want to get married under an OLTR model, please do so. Marriage is fine as long as you’re sexually free and your finances are protected.
The second is this: The statistics compare the typical married guy and the guy who never gets married. The typical guy who never gets married, generally speaking, are the losers and dorks with no people skills, they’re not very physically fit, etc., and there are plenty of exceptions to this, but we’re not looking at the same baseline. It’s not that they’re not getting married, it’s because they’re losers, therefore they don’t get married, and therefore they don’t live as long.
That’s really irrelevant. Go ahead and get married if you want to, just don’t be monogamous.
45. (Americans only) Getting married is a good idea because it reduces monthly health insurance costs.
So you’re going to incur all the risks of a monogamous marriage in a society with a 76% divorce rate so you can save $300 a month on health insurance? Does that sound smart to you? Does that sound rational?
Hell, let’s triple that number. Taking all the horrible risks of traditional monogamous marriage for a $900 a month savings on insurance is insane.
Here’s an idea, and I’m about to blow your mind here: Why don’t you just increase your income by $900 a month?
46. Yes, the odds of monogamous marriage lasting forever are very low. But that doesn’t matter to the individual. The statistical odds of a guy having sex with more than 50 women in his life are also very low, but you don’t recommend any guy stop pursuing that goal, right?
Again, you need to work on your basic math skills.
What is the variable that you must control if you want to have sex with 50 women? There’s only one: you. You have control over you. If one girl doesn't work, you just go to the next, then the next, and so on, until you get your 50.
When you’re married, what are the variables you have to control? You and her. But you don’t have control over her, which means you control only 50% of the equation.
But if your objective is to bang a lot of girls, you only have to control one person—you.
47. If you get married maybe you can save money on taxes.
Read this. Being married puts upward pressure on monthly expenses. Even in an OLTR marriage, my monthly personal expenses went up when I got married.
So if you think for one moment that getting traditionally married is going to save you money, you're a fucking moron. You will be spending so much more money, any tax savings will be irrelevant.
48. I prefer to have one partner because I hate all the things necessary to get a new partner.
Again, you don’t need 12 partners. The assumption behind this question is that you have to have 47 partners or something. It’s just not true. You only need TWO—one main girl and one on the side. That’s all. If the girl on the side goes away, you can, at your leisure, go get another one. It doesn’t take a lot of effort.
I have an entire book series that shows you how to bring new women into your life relatively quickly, easily, and cheaply if you want. But even then, you don’t need a bunch of women.
49. At some point, you need to grow up and commit to somebody.
In general, I agree with that. There are some exceptions, men who should never get married or live with a woman. But eventually, yes, I agree that as men get older—way over the age of 35—they should settle down with someone if they want to, provided they’ve achieved some of their financial goals and so forth. I certainly did. But do it under the OLTR model and with a financial barrier in place so you don’t lose a penny in the event of a divorce and you can continue to have sex with other women.
Don’t bullshit yourself about this! Every excuse I’ve ever heard is right here on this list. Long-term sexual monogamy doesn’t work. The only intelligent option is to embrace some sort of non-monogamy, and there are many different kinds.
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John 2020-10-29 13:13:07
AS far as#49 I see this model to be even more appealing to those who have already grown up, been through a bad marriage already, and don't want more kids.
Stephen 2020-10-29 13:53:28
I've been testing various ways of letting women know I will not be monogamous. When I use this one, women seem to actually agree with me.
I say: We have all heard sex goes down after marriage. If I got engaged, my GF would have to agree that if she no longer wants to have regular sex with me, then she is saying it is okay for me to have sex with other women.After they think about it a common question is, what if you fall in love with the other woman? To that I respond -- that's possible, it's a risk my partner takes when she makes that choice.
Joe 2020-10-29 16:53:05
Here is the one objection I think is missing: Live in OLTRs make it pretty difficult for the man to find partners (obviously women never have this issue). You seem to make it work with the office you have, but for those of us that don’t have/can’t afford a separate locale to take dates, the logistics get difficult. Also not being able to hide your ENM / cohabitated status is a major deterrent in getting women interested in a first date.
Buzz 2020-10-29 17:17:57
I have a request. Analyze this marriage for us 'Jost Married!' Scarlett Johansson and Colin Jost Tie the Knot in Intimate Ceremony https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/news/jost-married-scarlett-johansson-and-colin-jost-tie-the-knot-in-intimate-ceremony/ar-BB1awhVo?ocid=msedgdhp Ya I know, traditional marriage but I think she makes a lot more money than he does and ya this is her 3 rd marriage and she has one girl but still This guy gets to bonk Scarlett Johansson for a while and I think we all agree she is still very hot..... What say you oh wise one??????????????
Eric Smith 2020-10-29 18:00:41
The best way to find the nicest girl possible for pair bonding imho. These articles are super useful for being out in the real world and learning to spot BS. Thanks.
AlphaOmega 2020-10-30 01:03:53
That was true a long time ago when the divorce rate was around 7%. Today, a woman in the Western world can divorce you whenever she wants for any reason she wants, and she will be supported by the law and all of her friends and family. Traditional marriage is no longer a commitment—not in the Western world.and dont forget that she can also say no to sex. Where is the commitment in that?
Blackdragon 2020-10-30 01:45:00
If I got engaged, my GF would have to agree that if she no longer wants to have regular sex with me, then she is saying it is okay for me to have sex with other women.That's called Conditional Monogamy and it doesn't work. Read this.
Here is the one objection I think is missing:Your objection isn't about monogamy but about live-in OLTRs.
Live in OLTRs make it pretty difficult for the man to find partners (obviously women never have this issue).Incorrect. Most men I know who have OLTR Marriages do not have this problem. As a matter of fact, I'm trying to think of anyone right now with an OLTR Marriage who actually does have this problem and I can't think of one.
You seem to make it work with the office you have, but for those of us that don’t have/can’t afford a separate locale to take dates, the logistics get difficult.If you can't afford an inexpensive second locale (mine costs just $400 a month) then you are not ready to settle down yet.
‘Jost Married!’ Scarlett Johansson and Colin Jost Tie the Knot in Intimate CeremonyI know. After she did a famous YouTube video where she said monogamy doesn't work.
but still This guy gets to bonk Scarlett Johansson for a while and I think we all agree she is still very hot…..I've had sex with women just as hot if not hotter than Scarlett Johansson (including very, very recently) and I'm not monogamous. Be non-monogamous and fuck hot girls. Fucking hot babes does not require monogamy unless you're a beta (like Colin Jost).
These articles are super useful for being out in the real world and learning to spot BS. Thanks.You're very welcome.
and dont forget that she can also say no to sex. Where is the commitment in that?Well, a woman would argue that has nothing to do with commitment. She's here, staying with you, being your wife, raising "your" damn kids, slaving over a hot stove, etc, etc, what difference does it make that she's not having sex with you?
AlphaOmega 2020-10-30 05:48:57
slaving over a hot stove, etc, etcexcept women dont really do that anymore
being your wifeshe isnt really doing that if shes not available for sex
AlphaOmega 2020-10-30 06:01:43
and dont forget that she can also say no to sex. Where is the commitment in that?Well, a woman would argue that has nothing to do with commitment. She’s here, staying with you, being your wife, raising “your” damn kids, slaving over a hot stove, etc, etc, what difference does it make that she’s not having sex with you?
Blackdragon 2020-10-30 10:54:45
If I dont have a guarantee of commitment from a woman that she will stay with me and always have sex with me it makes the whole idea of TMM completely pointless and redundant for a man.I would still consider TMM pointless even if she made those promises but I get your point.
AlphaOmega 2020-10-30 11:00:35
I would still consider TMM pointless even if she made those promises but I get your point.The meaning of TMM is actually religious and makes no sense otherwise but somehow society seems to think that its romantic thats the excuse I get from non religious people. We can replace TMM with serious monogamous relationship. Also pointless if you dont have that kind of commitment at least partially because then its a long term causual relationship basically.
Kevin 2020-10-30 13:09:41
the whole Scar Jo Colin Jost is even more extreme 2 per cent rule the one thing she probably will not do is publicly announce she is pregnant with another mans baby while married to Colin monogamy boredom romance all good for publicity, hey if she really wants headlines she can announce she has decided to be married and celibate! (She promises to tell Colin soon ) ! i bet she paid for the 450 ooo dollar engagement ring herself ,a bit more than bd paid for pink Firefly ring why is Dolly Parton doing interviews about her own husband? ..what women do not what they say..
Buzz 2020-10-30 15:59:58
the whole Scar Jo Colin Jost thing OK, if he signed a prenup he is a hopeless beta.... otherwise his retirement is taken care of LOL. Come on Scar Jo is not just hot, she is rich and famous What if she still has the outfits/costumes she wore in her movies???? Is he the luckiest beta that ever lived??????? @kevin Oh ya, I agree, it way less than 2 percent... are you implying that it is an open marriage? Damb, if Scar Jo is your first woman how are you going to find FBs that are hotter?????? as per BDs rules.....
Joe 2020-10-30 17:32:08
Incorrect. Most men I know who have OLTR Marriages do not have this problem. As a matter of fact, I’m trying to think of anyone right now with an OLTR Marriage who actually does have this problem and I can’t think of one.Interesting. I’d love to read an article on the different logistical options of OLTR marriages... how do you date while remaining ethical by disclosing that you are partnered? Where do you take dates? (hotels, separate apartments, etc)
C Lo 2020-10-30 19:47:30
Occasionally, Caleb and I butt heads. Occasionally. Today will not be one of those days. I can quibble about a couple of things here and there but this:
21. I hate using condoms. With monogamy, I don’t have to use one.I assure you is the scary truth Societal Programming might get you buy into, but it's not true. I was married for nearly 20 years to the same woman, and six months before we separated I had to take antibiotics for a STD my (then present, now ex) wife brought home. I know it wasn't me, don't start. Which leads me to:
3. I can’t trust my partner to use a condom every time they have sex with someone else.Monogamy is no buffer to someone using safe sex practices. It's not even a buffer for you if your partner is having sex with someone else and you've been married for years. You can't chain her to a furnace and you can't know what she's doing or who. In fact, I can point to a day on the calendar where my wife was having sex with another guy. She always had a high sex drive and one day... I dated someone after I got divorced who I thought was it. Then she did the same thing. If a woman cuts you off from sex, even once, and it's apparent she isn't sick or pissed at you, you've got problems.
C Lo 2020-10-30 19:56:22
if he signed a prenup he is a hopeless beta…. otherwise his retirement is taken care of LOL. Come onIn California prenups are not enforcable due to preexisting rejoinder. In New York they are. Also, like California, New York is a community property state, meaning anything that is aquired post nuptuals is shared - equity and debt. If she never works again and he does she gets half. The inverse is also true. I really wish y'all would get sharp to how divorce law works in your general area and stick to it. Or be aware that your divorce is more likely to be effected by where someone files rather than where you were married. It kinda matters.
C Lo 2020-10-30 20:15:41
I gotta apologize for the multiple posts, but I need to ask this:
My dad just got married about two years ago, and I was fine with that. In fact, I was the emcee at his wedding.Bro, really? He was married to your mom for 50 years and found someone in a minute twenty years younger than him? Awesome!
AlphaOmega 2020-10-31 00:30:12
how are you going to find FBs that are hotter??????thats not as hard as you think. Keep in mind shes not that young anymore and probably doesnt look that amazing without make up and if she does just give it a few years. Also dont forget she had that reverse boob job.
AlphaOmega 2020-10-31 00:33:16
how do you date while remaining ethical by disclosing that you are partnered? Where do you take dates? (hotels, separate apartments, etc)you dont need to disclose that at all, same as you dont disclose you are dating multiple women / are planning to continue fucking multiple right at the start. No one here does that right at the start. This is no different. As for logistics. Her place is always a cheap option. For younger people thats quite common so if you date younger women they wont be surprised. If you fo sugar babies youd need to take them to hotel but then you can prob afford it if you are doing sugar babies.
AlphaOmega 2020-10-31 00:38:53
If a woman cuts you off from sex, even once, and it’s apparent she isn’t sick or pissed at you, you’ve got problems.for me its not ok to not have sex when shes pissed, only sick i can accept or say very tired and i know she has important day tomorrow or something like that, of course again this is only monogamy problem. Otherwise you jusr fuck someone else and she knows you can so she will want to make sure youre always satisfied. Main reason why this stuff works, provided she doesnt runaway from you instead. But then that happens in monogamy too.
Blackdragon 2020-10-31 01:44:43
I’d love to read an article on the different logistical options of OLTR marriages… how do you date while remaining ethical by disclosing that you are partnered? Where do you take dates? (hotels, separate apartments, etc)I answer all of those questions in great, step-by-step detail in this book.
If a woman cuts you off from sex, even once, and it’s apparent she isn’t sick or pissed at you, you’ve got problems.You've just described 100% of all human women in a live-in relationship that lasts longer than ~3 years (even in OLTR Marriages). Thus, non-monogamy and/or OLTR Marriage. Now it doesn't matter if she says no.
Bro, really? He was married to your mom for 50 years and found someone in a minute twenty years younger than him? Awesome!No it's not. He was devastated when my mom left him and despite the new marriage he will never fully recover emotionally. People don't realize that the longer a marriage lasts before a divorce a occurs the worse the divorce will be. If you get divorced after just 3 years of being married, fine (you were very stupid, but fine). But getting divorced after 20 years? 30 years? 40 years? Very bad. (Thank god my TMM only lasted 9 years and I was out by the time I was 35 and still young.) Having a very long marriage and then getting divorced in your old age is not a victory. It's the opposite.
Sandro 2020-10-31 11:27:38
Monogamy doesn't work but at the end of the day let's be real here for a moment: most men have no other options than to commit to an average woman. They will become the beta providers who do everything for her and say yes to all her demands until she cheats or breaks up with them. If most men had options we wouldn't even need to discuss this topic at all. It's like arguing about whether it's safer to drive a Ferrari or a Porche in a city. Most men won't be able to drive any of these cars.
AlphaOmega 2020-10-31 11:42:11
Monogamy doesn’t work but at the end of the day let’s be real here for a moment: most men have no other options than to commit to an average woman. They will become the beta providers who do everything for her and say yes to all her demands until she cheats or breaks up with them. If most men had options we wouldn’t even need to discuss this topic at all. It’s like arguing about whether it’s safer to drive a Ferrari or a Porche in a city. Most men won’t be able to drive any of these cars.What you say makes sense in a way but at the same time there is a huge flaw in your argument - if it was really like you say then most men would never ever get another woman after she dumps them. That is of course nor the case for even vast mojority of betas. So clearly they do have some options - even if very limited. This means if they can get multiple women at different times I do not see why in theory they couldnt get multiple women at the same time. The reason they dont is because they dont want to that much - they are satisfied with having one woman. Now lets be honest many alphas are oftentimes satisfied (at least for a limited time) with one woman as well. So actually what you say is completely irrelevant. The point is not what you can or cannot do because clearly I demonstrated you can, but it is about whether you should want that or not. This every man can decide for himself whether he wants to wait for the day the woman dumps him or starts saying no to sex and then starts looking for a new woman from zero or whether he keeps redundancies and variety. Alphas also dont always have loads of women but you know who you are, what you want and how to get it - if you chose to. Thats the difference. Betas just accept whatever comes even though clearly they could do better if they tried - but they dont try and thats what makes them beta.
Sandro 2020-10-31 15:57:35
This means if they can get multiple women at different times I do not see why in theory they couldnt get multiple women at the same time.Most men can't get multiple women at the same time and if they do be assured they are not the quality women they desire, unless they pay money for them. It has actually less to do with being alpha and beta, it's simply that at a certain you just can't be with multiple hot and young women, no matter what you like to believe.
Buzz 2020-10-31 16:02:59
@AlphaOmega WHAT? she had a breast reduction???? Why wasn't I informed about this?????????????
AlphaOmega 2020-10-31 16:12:46
they do be assured they are not the quality women they desire,Not getting exactly what you desire doesnt mean its not what you like. Usually its like this: he doesnt get his first choice of women but they are still women he likes. At some point you have to decide whether you will humble down and be happy with what you have and can achieve easily or keep putting extra effort to maybe huge lenghts for that little extra. We all have to decide for ourselves when or where we draw that line.
WHAT? she had a breast reduction????Dude, it was all over social media and the memes were exploding with. Already for over a year if not longer. Hmm I think its been years actually. Of course you dont hear this in linked in or instagram. You gotta frequent the meme social media to hear this kind of stuff.
BluJay 2020-10-31 19:09:12
I’m sorry but every time a man defends monogamy I want to throw up! Why the hell would you sign a contract to give half your shit to someone who may or may not love you or have sex with you? If you haven’t been through divorce let me tell you it’s a HORRIBLE experience, and mine was 100% uncontested. I can’t even imagine how awful it is for men who takes them years to get divorce. I’d have probably committed suicide if I had to go through custody battles and family courts and lawyers! So I’d never get married again unless my finances are secure and my sex life is unaffected by a divorce.
C Lo 2020-10-31 22:31:05
You’ve just described 100% of all human women in a live-in relationship that lasts longer than ~3 years (even in OLTR Marriages).I know. I was with the same woman for twenty years. Which leads to...
No it’s not. He was devastated when my mom left him and despite the new marriage he will never fully recover emotionally. People don’t realize that the longer a marriage lasts before a divorce a occurs the worse the divorce will be.Pretty much all that is accurate. I'm just saying he bounced back better than a lot of guys, which isn't to disrespect the damage he's suffered. I never did get my act together, and when I wrote that I meant to imply that I'm glad your dad made the best of things.
C Lo 2020-10-31 22:51:20
So I’d never get married again unless my finances are secure and my sex life is unaffected by a divorce.Depending on where you live, that might be possible, or if you live in California, you won't be getting married again because that sort of divorce isn't possible. Kind of OT, I'm of the opinion that there are three kinds of divorced men: a. If the right girl came along, I'd do it TMM again. b. I'm all about living my best life, and having a long term committed relationship, but TMM? Nope. c. I do what I want, I'm all about maximum freedom, and I don't want to go through that nonsense that goes with commitment again AT ALL. Every divorced guy has to pick a lane. They all have certain trade offs. One of them will work for you better than the rest of them. You may have mixed emotions about the lane you pick. You may change your mind. Just be aware of the trade offs and do the best you can.
Kumar 2020-11-01 00:08:11
I have problem with the point number 15, where you mentioned about putting restrictions on a woman you are having OLTR with- about what is allowed, and what is not. Is that not controlling in some way? If a girl is willing to go on trips, or talk long hours on the phone with the other dudes, would it make any difference to her that she is not allowed to do it? I mean, if she wants to do it, she will find a way. I maybe out of my mind, cause Iam still learning the ropes.
Blackdragon 2020-11-01 00:29:20
Monogamy doesn’t work but at the end of the day let’s be real here for a moment: most men have no other options than to commit to an average woman.Incorrect. They could choose become a man with options. I started as a man with no options other than beta male monogamy.
I’m sorry but every time a man defends monogamy I want to throw up!Me too.
Why the hell would you sign a contract to give half your shit to someone who may or may not love you or have sex with you?Because that's what everyone in society has told you to do for your entire life. Societal Programming is greater than logic.
Blackdragon 2020-11-01 00:36:28
I have problem with the point number 15, where you mentioned about putting restrictions on a woman you are having OLTR with- about what is allowed, and what is not. Is that not controlling in some way?You don't control women in an OLTR (or any other Alpha Male 2.0 relationship). That's Alpha Male 1.0 stuff. You never tell her what to do and let her do literally whatever she wants. But the flip side is that YOU can react to what she does any way YOU want, so you can make it clear that she she violates any commitments she made to you at the start of the OLTR, she's more than welcome to do that, but she risks you instantly leaving and she gets no money if that happens. Now the choice is hers. I have literally never told my wife what to do when it comes to her personal life. She can do whatever she wants with no argument from me. And she knows if she does something to seriously damage our relationship she'll probably be out of my house within 48 hours, again with no drama or argument from me. I'll even help her pack. 🙂
If a girl is willing to go on trips, or talk long hours on the phone with the other dudes, would it make any difference to her that she is not allowed to do it?Of course it does. Do all women in monogamous marriages do this? Nope. She can still violate that rule if she wants though, and statistically probably will if the marriage lasts long enough because that's how women are. Which is fine; that's her choice. And it's my choice to end the relationship and go have sex with women younger and hotter than her. And I lose no money. Cool.
I mean, if she wants to do it, she will find a way.Correct. That's why you should let her if that's what she really wants.
AlphaOmega 2020-11-01 01:32:30
b. I’m all about living my best life, and having a long term committed relationship, but TMM?As was discussed above you dont get committment nowadays anyway in the west since most women think they can say no to sex and or leave you any time. Women nowadays offer no commitment only request it.
Incognito 2020-11-01 02:17:02
I hate using condoms. With monogamy, I don’t have to use one.Just use Sagami 0.02. Extremely thin, made from silicon rather than rubber, which transmits heat much better. You can barely feel them. They cost about five times the price of standard condoms, but after you've used them once, you'll never look back.
AlphaOmega 2020-11-01 03:27:48
Just use Sagami 0.02. Extremely thin, made from silicon rather than rubber, which transmits heat much better. You can barely feel them.You assume that for everyone its just about the physical feel rather than about feeling her juices and being able to fill her up.
Incognito 2020-11-01 05:22:46
You assume that for everyone its just about the physical feel rather than about feeling her juices and being able to fill her up.It's not perfect, but it's night and day compared to even the thinnest, best quality rubber. Women also always comment that they feel practically the same as bareback. Have you tried them? Give it a shot!
AlphaOmega 2020-11-01 06:40:27
It’s not perfect, but it’s night and day compared to even the thinnest, best quality rubber. Women also always comment that they feel practically the same as bareback. Have you tried them? Give it a shot!ok but do they break easily? My experience with the thin stuff it either breaks all the time - at which point might as well not bother / use it if you wanna raw a girl and she doesnt want and youre an asshole - or they feel way too tight. is it comparable durability and width to say standard durex? Or is it much tighter and breaks more?
Incognito 2020-11-01 07:26:53
No, never had one break. The only drawback is they have slightly less stretch than rubber, so the fit needs to be correct. To get around that, they offer two sizes, regular and large (obviously their marketing people advised them against SMALL and large). I'd like to say I use the large ones, but I'm afraid I have to admit that regular suits me fine. I got some ribbing froma a friend who complained that regular was unusable because they were tiny. There is also an even thinner one, Sagami 0.01, but only available where I live at ridiculous prices, around ten dollars each, so I've never used one. But the prices on Amazon (for both types) for American residents aren't too bad.
kevin 2020-11-01 08:10:26
@buzz as an alpha male why would I care who the luckiest beta male in the world is ?
kevin 2020-11-01 08:11:23
@buzz as an alpha male , why would I care who the luckiest beta male in the world is ?
C Lo 2020-11-01 11:54:46
As was discussed above you dont get committment nowadays anyway in the west since most women think they can say no to sex and or leave you any time. Women nowadays offer no commitment only request it.Clearly anyone who is B or C above understands that is exactly the dynamic. Anyone who chooses B gets to fade all kinds of drama when some chick hits you up for commitment and you say "no". This, from experience, tends to be treated as a challenge and not a boundary. So you can expect this argument to be repeated over and over again. Which is fine it you like drama. Personally, I hate being nagged and I hate being told what to do when I know it's against my best interests. Anyone who chooses C really doesn't like drama, and is choosing C because avoidance is an effective strategy. With obvious downsides.
AS far as#49 I see this model to be even more appealing to those who have already grown up, been through a bad marriage already, and don’t want more kids.Yeah, this is where I'm at, except I didn't have a bad marriage till the last couple of years. BD comments that eventually a man wants to settle down, but some of us who already settled down realize now that it was just a "settle" and was kinda overrated. Clearly I speak just for myself, but even if you are really independent and didn't enjoy the last trip through family court, it's still a struggle to not take door A because TMM is easy because you've already done it before. Maybe lazy is the right word. Anyway, the only reason I'm posting any of this is my head is still spinning that BD's dad got remarried after being with his mom for 50 years. BD articulately described the aftermath of a long marriage as "psychological damage" and he's not wrong but it's almost like Stockholm's Syndrome. There's some part of you that wants you to rejoin The Prison because it was safe or comfortable or some other buffered bullshit it wasn't really but you thought it was at the time. I can't be the only older, married a long time, but now divorced guy who struggles with this. Point being, monogamy is a joke. Sooner or later somebody cheats and then you aren't in a monogamous relationship anymore. Why make a deal that you know is eventually going to get broken? Why get TMM if you know it's going to eventually result in a divorce 3 out of 4 times, and half of those divorces lead to bankrupcy? You aren't a special flower, and like playing in the freeway, the Law of Big Numbers is eventually coming for you. It's just a matter of time before you get smacked by a car and hurt really badly.
C Lo 2020-11-01 12:02:39
You assume that for everyone its just about the physical feel rather than about feeling her juices and being able to fill her up.As someone who never had unprotected sex before I was 35 (and had a vasectomy), I can attest this is an underrated post. Spot on. When I used condoms, I had better luck with polyurethane ones. I'm not sure if they were thinner but they had superior feel and transferred heat better.
Blackdragon 2020-11-01 13:05:24
Just use Sagami 0.02. Extremely thin, made from silicon rather than rubber, which transmits heat much better. You can barely feel them. They cost about five times the price of standard condoms, but after you’ve used them once, you’ll never look back.Disagree. Read this for my experience with Japanese condoms. I will never use them again.
as an alpha male why would I care who the luckiest beta male in the world is ?Because he's not an Alpha Male and you can tell from his comments he would do a TMM if the girl was really hot or famous.
Incognito 2020-11-01 14:13:10
Disagree. Read this for my experience with Japanese condoms. I will never use them again.Hmm. Interesting review. But I've used them hundreds of times without a problem, so I'll go with my own experience. I note you make a complaint about size -- another one! Haha. I just have to accept the logical conclusion. Not that I care. It still gets rock hard and sees plenty of action, which is the main thing. Maybe you could try the large ones.
Lovergirl 2020-11-01 15:33:20
Marriage is really more beneficial to men than it is to women. Most men get spoiled and taken care of by their wives. Older men, especially, have a much harder time being single. After their wife dies or gets a divorce they don’t know how to take care of themselves and jump into relationships right away. I’ve seen a lot of that. And men tend to have a harder time socially without a woman around. Older women on the other hand, just get their cats or whatever and seem happy. Just saying. It’s rare for a man to stay single his whole life, no matter how much they talk about it in their younger years. Statistics even say married men live longer. It doesn’t help women to be married though. Go figure. I think if both people are truly committed then it can be a lot less stressful to be in a monogamous relationship. To have other people infringing on your life all the time just seems like it would wear things down after awhile. I went 10 yrs after my divorce in non monogamous relationships. They have their own set of issues. For the last year and a half I have been in a monogamous one and personally it makes me happier. Sure, there is the possibility we could break up. That could happen with a non monogamous relationship too. Being afraid of monogamy is really based in fear. It’s fear of not having something to fall back on. But even people who don’t have much going for them can usually find a replacement eventually.
C Lo 2020-11-01 17:14:07
I'm really glad Lovergirl posted (long time, no see lady!), and I was prepared to put her on blast just because I think this first is societal programming laced nonsense:
Marriage is really more beneficial to men than it is to women.Except after I read the second sentence, thought about it, and realized she's right:
Most men getI worked with an older Mexican lady a few years back that told me most men are looking for a replacement for their mother. I was floored. I couldn't believe it. But then I thought about it and she's right. I told her "Seriously? I don't need a chick for anything. I cook my own meals, clean my own house, fix my own car, pay my own bills, do my own yardwork, make my own doctors appointments, launder and mend my own clothes. Other men don't do this?" To which she replied with a laugh "No!". I scowled and said "Needy." She laughed again and said "You aren't most men." So, point being, most men are hopeless, needy betaized types. Luckily for anyone reading this far, you are not one of those men.
spoiled andtaken care of by their wives.
It’s rare for a man to stay single his whole life, no matter how much they talk about it in their younger years.Yeah, see, I agree, but I did that opposite. When I was younger I couldn't wait to get married. Everyone I knew back then who was single was an outcast and literally everyone older than me that I knew was married. But that was 30-40 years ago. Times change. Been there, done that, got the trophy for 20 years, got divorced anyway. Welcome to the 21st Century. For me anyway, once was enough. But to your point, I think it's one of those things like picking up a cat by it's tail - you can tell a guy how bad of an idea it is, but they can't cognitively understand how bad until they experience it for themselves. Some guys don't mind getting the shit scratched out of them and do it again. Who's to judge?
I think if both people are truly committed then it can be a lot less stressful to be in a monogamous relationship. To have other people infringing on your life all the time just seems like it would wear things down after awhile.Completely agree, except eventually monogamy begets boredom, and women can tolerate a lot of nonsense, but they absolutely can't tolerate being bored, and it will detonate in your face making your life infinitely more stressful at some point in the future. So you're right. For a while. I make parallels between monogamy and that cure some people took in that Will Smith movie "I am Legend". Sure, it cures cancer but only for a while, after which you turn into a zombie and then nobody wants anything to do with you because you probably had married friends and, as a man, now you are a toxic outcast like you won't believe unless you've went there once or three times.
Being afraid of monogamy is really based in fear. It’s fear of not having something to fall back on.Hey look, you are right about the fear thing. I live in a perpetual state of anticipation of when, not if, my ex decides to check out my finances and drag me back into family court. It's not fun. I'd like to avoid a redux of that, ya know? And, it's true, I fear someone trying to control me while they are free to go sloop around and do stuff that was against our rules we agreed to. As a man, I just love being minded! Because, you know, I need another mother (see above). So, yeah, I disagree. From experience, I didn't choose monogamy because I was in fear of anything. I chose it because it felt safe. Hindsight being 20/20, I realize that it was anything but safe, but hey! I felt good about it while I was getting cheated on. Which is okay, that's the deal I signed up for. I take full responsibility for everyone who ever cheated on me and being my fault, strictly because I agreed to monogamy, a deal I know now will fail almost 100% of the time. No sense picking up that cat again. The poor cat.
Buzz 2020-11-01 18:43:30
@Kevin @Kevin I actually knew I never wanted to be married or have kids 10 years before BD was even a sparkle in his daddy's eye. And I didn't have to get married to a woman that already had a kid to figure that out either. I got to see it in action from the inside, both of my parents were crazy. I am not an alpha or a beta I am a 10101 digital male. I enjoy knowing what the fastest car is even though I will never have one. BD wrote an article about how men don't agree on who is a ten but she was mentioned as someone who most men would consider as a 10. I know I will get corrected on this if I am wrong. We know them both, I guess he knew her for a longtime and finally made his move. I thought he did good with what little he had, but we will see.... Have you ever seen a football player make a really good catch and then just get monkey piled? It was still a good catch, right? I don't live in either California or New York, I am not that crazy....
Stephen 2020-11-01 20:15:07
@BlueJay: Why the hell would you sign a contract to give half your shit to someone who may or may not love you or have sex with you?I never understood this. Not to brag, but life has always been easy for me. The women I have dated were all hopeless messes. Marrying even the best of them would have been like caring for a child. Sex a few times a week was never worth it. Most of my buddies got married out of loneliness. They thought getting a live-in GF or wife was locking them down for life. It always ended in divorce because the women smelled the desperation and it sickened them. One even tried a Chinese woman who pretended to love cooking and housework. That one didn't last a year. Caleb's ideas have sunk in, for me at least. Enjoy them but don't marry them. Have more than one woman so you don't fear losing one. Don't get into useless arguments with them. There is no prize for winning, and instead of getting laid you get drama.
Blackdragon 2020-11-01 21:54:17
Marriage is really more beneficial to men than it is to women. Most men get spoiled and taken care of by their wives. Older men, especially, have a much harder time being single.Right, change that to "Marriage is really more beneficial to VERY OLD men." I agree. But dudes in their 20s? 30s? 40s? Even 50s if you're healthy? No.
It’s rare for a man to stay single his whole life, no matter how much they talk about it in their younger years.Correct. I've said that many times. Men get oneitis and needy, even Alpha Male players.
Statistics even say married men live longer.Objection #44 above.
It doesn’t help women to be married though. Go figure.Yeah I think that's true. And yes, it's interesting.
I went 10 yrs after my divorce in non monogamous relationships. They have their own set of issues.Not if you do them correctly. I've been doing non-monogamous relationships for 13 years straight with pretty much zero problems.
For the last year and a half I have been in a monogamous one and personally it makes me happier.Yeah, for now. It's still reasonably new. Give it time.
Sure, there is the possibility we could break up.Not a possibly, but an almost 100% certainty. And you're a woman so you'll get over it pretty quickly and just find a new guy and be happy again. Women love serial monogamy as I've analyzed many times here. It's your boyfriend who will be crushed.
That could happen with a non monogamous relationship too.Objection #41 above.
Being afraid of monogamy is really based in fear.No, it's based in fact.
It’s fear of not having something to fall back on.Correct. You must always have a Plan B with something with that high of a failure rate. Otherwise you're being irrational or stupid.
But even people who don’t have much going for them can usually find a replacement eventually.Women find replacements quickly and easily, as I just said. Men can't or don't. It's different for men. Notice I don't scream at women about not being monogamous quite as loudly as I scream at men about it. There's a reason.
Blackdragon 2020-11-01 21:58:07
Most of my buddies got married out of loneliness.Yes, that is the number one reason men move in with a woman. And it's the worst reason to have to move in with a woman.
They thought getting a live-in GF or wife was locking them down for life. It always ended in divorce because the women smelled the desperation and it sickened them. One even tried a Chinese woman who pretended to love cooking and housework. That one didn’t last a year.Haha! Yep.
Caleb’s ideas have sunk in, for me at least. Enjoy them but don’t marry them. Have more than one woman so you don’t fear losing one. Don’t get into useless arguments with them. There is no prize for winning, and instead of getting laid you get drama.Bingo.
AlphaOmega 2020-11-02 00:38:01
Marriage is really more beneficial to men than it is to women.Litterally none of what you say is something unique benefit coming from marriage that would not be there in a long term relationship monogamous or not.
I think if both people are truly committed then it can be a lot less stressful to be in a monogamous relationship.As I discussed above commitment doesnt for most part exist anymore since most women now think they can leave the man any time or say no to sex anytime.
C Lo 2020-11-02 09:43:24
As I discussed above commitment doesnt for most part exist anymore since most women now think they can leave the man any time or say no to sex anytime.They think that because it's completely true! That's the game right there. So why do women - almost universally - thirst for monogamy? That's a rhetorical question that defines chick logic but it's worth considering. When I was in MBA school years ago, we'd spend a lot of time doing consulting for the in house business incubator, and one of the first things we would do is get the client to boil down "what value does your business bring?" A logical pivot if you are doing business with someone, ask yourself "what value does this vendor bring?" Project a little and ask "What value does monogamy bring a woman?" and the answer boils down to control. If someone else has a different opinion, I'd love to hear it. This has been a fantastic topic, Caleb.
AlphaOmega 2020-11-02 09:53:54
Project a little and ask “What value does monogamy bring a woman?” and the answer boils down to control. If someone else has a different opinion, I’d love to hear it.Thats exactly it, for me it often feels that non monogamy is neccessary to get on equal level with women these days in terms of power and control. Often when I date only one girl for a while I realize this is more the reason than the need for variety.
C Lo 2020-11-02 10:35:11
At the risk of getting stuck in moderation purgatory, I thought I remembered BD writing about women's eventual boredom in monogamy. Turns out he did! https://blackdragonblog.com/2013/09/29/women-get-bored-with-their-monogamous-men-even-more-scientific-proof/ Every married man will attest to this "boredom" as being a fact. It's inescapable.
Stephen 2020-11-03 13:15:14
Project a little and ask “What value does monogamy bring a woman?” and the answer boils down to control. If someone else has a different opinion, I’d love to hear it.Societal programming is very strong. Being financially cared for, the belief that men are there to support and protect them. Dreams of being a bride, dressed up like a princess, showing off to their friends. They've been dreaming of this since they were small children dressing up dolls. It SEEMS like control, because once the relationship sours all these dreams become hopeless. They are angry and want to punish that bad man who didn't do *what he's supposed to*.
Most men get spoiled and taken care of by their wives. Older men, especially, have a much harder time being single. After their wife dies or gets a divorce they don’t know how to take care of themselvesWho are these men? I've never seen one. Have any of you guys seen this? It sounds like something from the 50s. My dead grandparents were like this. But anyone born since the 60s is expected to do his own laundry, cooking, etc... When I earlier said the women I dated were hopeless, I meant after working full time THEY COULDN'T HANDLE simple household tasks. Their apartments looked like homeless camps with trash lying around.
AlphaOmega 2020-11-03 14:10:57
Who are these men? I’ve never seen one. Have any of you guys seen this? It sounds like something from the 50s. My dead grandparents were like this. But anyone born since the 60s is expected to do his own laundry, cooking, etc…ive seen it with grandparents and also parents to some extent but no chance of that now.
When I earlier said the women I dated were hopeless, I meant after working full time THEY COULDN’T HANDLE simple household tasks. Their apartments looked like homeless camps with trash lying around.most women nowadays cannot cook properly, often im teaching them how they can make meals anyway its fine I dont need woman for cooking i can eat out, i can afford it no problem and for cleaning i can also pay someone again can afford it no problem what I want a woman for is cuddling and sex
C Lo 2020-11-03 22:28:23
I want a woman for is cuddling and sexAgreed, but I want one for companionship too. It's awesome to have a 1 that does the same fun stuff you like to do, to have one that you enjoy having sex with is even better. All that stuff Lovergirl listed off makes my blood run cold. Literally I had a shiver just now reading it.
AlphaOmega 2020-11-04 00:29:21
Agreed, but I want one for companionship too. It’s awesome to have a 1 that does the same fun stuff you like to do, to have one that you enjoy having sex with is even better.Yes but that is for higher end relationships, the basic stuff is for women in general.
All that stuff Lovergirl listed off makes my blood run cold. Literally I had a shiver just now reading it.To me it sounded like something I believed when I was a child but then again I was born in the 80s it was all kinda true back then, at least where I was born. Maybe in the US it was already not the case by then. If you watch movies and series set in the 60s in the US then the stuff she writes about is all there but thats about the only place I came across such stuff. Or when looking at grandparents like you say. Id say its not really that monogamy is preferred its more like that monogamy isnt really something thats possible anymore with the way women are. To me personally if someone does serial monogamy its not really monogamy anyway and thats what almost all the women do now.
JA 2020-11-05 14:31:46
BD, I was just wondering what you thought of this article: https://humanparts.medium.com/marriage-is-not-meant-to-make-you-happy-its-meant-to-make-you-conscious-f32c17941917 Also, I think the divorce rate in the 50's was way lower because people were more brainwashed to think that marriage was ideal. It didn't bring happiness (for most), they just didn't know any better, and couldn't imagine getting divorced. I don't want to return to that. It was a very repressive time. Also, Chase Amante has a good article about age and going out: https://www.girlschase.com/content/when-do-you-get-old-party-or-meet-girls
Liquorice 2020-11-06 02:39:36
BD, I was just wondering what you thought of this article: https://humanparts.medium.com/marriage-is-not-meant-to-make-you-happy-its-meant-to-make-you-conscious-f32c17941917Sadomasochism dressed up as self-enlightenment. The article and comments make me shiver... in disgust. Eww... It's among the lines as the overused line from that Rolling Stones song: "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you may get what you need". Well, that hasn't exactly stopped Mick Jagger from chasing (and getting) what he wants. So, why can't I?
AlphaOmega 2020-11-06 05:53:09
BD, I was just wondering what you thought of this article: https://humanparts.medium.com/marriage-is-not-meant-to-make-you-happy-its-meant-to-make-you-conscious-f32c17941917Sadomasochism dressed up as self-enlightenment. The article and comments make me shiver… in disgust. Eww… It’s among the lines as the overused line from that Rolling Stones song: “You can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you may get what you need”. Well, that hasn’t exactly stopped Mick Jagger from chasing (and getting) what he wants. So, why can’t I?
Blackdragon 2020-11-06 14:08:15
BD, I was just wondering what you thought of this article:I just read it and it said literally nothing of substance.
Also, I think the divorce rate in the 50’s was way lower because people were more brainwashed to think that marriage was ideal. It didn’t bring happiness (for most), they just didn’t know any better, and couldn’t imagine getting divorced.More or less correct.
I don’t want to return to that. It was a very repressive time.I agree completely.
Also, Chase Amante has a good article about age and going out:The answer to all of that is "use online dating." It's not a difficult concept. (And I like Chase.)
doclove 2020-11-08 05:54:08
@ Blackdragon, I read a long time ago that single never married men lived longer than divorced men. I also read that successfully married men lived longer than single never married men once you factor out the homosexual men population. I also read that single never married men have been narrowing the gap in longevity in comparison to married men. It seems that divorce is a big killer of men. Being widowed is more deadly than divorce too. I also read married women live longest, single never married women live second longest, divorced women live third longest, and widowed women lived the least longest. Women had less difference between the lowest category and the highest category listed in the previous statement than men. I find this credible even though I forgot where this is listed on the Internet. Maybe you or someone else can find it. You can probably add this as number 50 to your list once you find this.
doclove 2020-11-08 06:05:33
@ Blackdragon I think women;s romantic love is worth less than a man's romantic love. The reason is women do not love men as much as men love women on average. Men are more likely to lay down their lives and die for women than the opposite as well as become maimed, mutilated and humiliated. Men seem more willing to suffer for women than women for men on average. Since their is no greater love than to lay down one's life for another human as well as suffer for another. Women have become less loving and appreciative of men for at least 50 years due to but not limited to unwarranted chivalry, misandry and feminism. I think men and women have obsolete biological wiring to behave this way, but the current societal programming makes this several times worse. Let me know what you think about this post an the previous post.
doclove 2020-11-08 06:11:44
@ Lovergirl Please read the previous 2 posts I made.
AlphaOmega 2020-11-08 08:24:14
I think women;s romantic love is worth less than a man’s romantic love.What you describe is basic cavemen biology. Men protecting their mate / family. Women have the same biological drive or even stronger but to protect the children. Many mothers would sacririce everything for their often times even independent adult children. You also how in nature fameles openly attack superior predator or sacrifice themselves when they think it will save the youngs. One could argue though that in modern society this is not needed anymore especially from the male toward the woman which is why its often perceived as needy or taken advantage of.
Blackdragon 2020-11-08 10:11:42
I also read that successfully married men lived longer than single never married men once you factor out the homosexual men population.Objection #44 in the article.
I think women;s romantic love is worth less than a man’s romantic love. The reason is women do not love men as much as men love women on average.Correct. Women leave and replace men for more than men do women. (Though that many not be love as much as oneitis in most of today's cases.)
Men are more likely to lay down their lives and die for women than the opposite as well as become maimed, mutilated and humiliated. Men seem more willing to suffer for women than women for men on average.Yes. Hundreds of years ago this was honorable. Today these men are called "stupid betas."
Lovergirl 2020-11-08 14:52:31
Hi doclove. I am interested to see where those stats come from because they are different from what I have seen. They could be true, but it’s hard to say. As for men loving women more- I don’t think it’s that but men love differently. Biologically they are naturally there to protect so their love takes more risks. Women are super protective of their children but we aren’t as capable of protecting men. Women will go way out of their way to care for a man out of love but dying for them isn’t often something we would even have the ability to do in many cases, versus the other way around.
doclove 2020-11-09 02:55:35
@ AlphaOmega I completely agree with your response to me. Men's natural instincts have been weaoponized men in Western culture. Misandry is much more of a problem in the West than mysogyny.
doclove 2020-11-09 03:00:47
@ Blackdragon What do think about the possibility that men who never marry to include Alphas, Betas and even Omegas(Worse Losers with the ladies than even Betas) might live longer than divorced Betas on average? I agree with your responses to me above. This culture has weaponized men's instincts against men here in the West. Western Culture has more of a problem concerning misandry than mysogyny.
AlphaOmega 2020-11-09 03:05:27
Men’s natural instincts have been weaoponized men in Western culture.Yes or outright criminalized. Take a look for example at the normal natural instinct of a man to fertilize a woman who is as young as possible but already a woman biologically and sexually. I cannot really think of other examples right now but I think others may point out. For a majority of normal men there are also only two options that really work long term: non monogamy or eternal monogamy. This nonsense that you're going to be monogamous but she can say no to sex and leave you any time without giving a generous notice period / finding a replacement for you does not work for men and is straight out abusive towards men. Since you won't get eternal monogamy anymore from the women in the west the choice is to either relocate to a much more trad con society or be non monogamous. To me its not even that non monogamy is preferable its more like its the only real option these days. Or live in a trad con society where the woman cant say no to sex when married and where she will be socially ruined for leaving the husband. Personally I am not sure I would enjoy that either so I think non monogamy is the only option where neither side is oppressed/abused.
Blackdragon 2020-11-09 10:00:49
What do think about the possibility that men who never marry to include Alphas, Betas and even Omegas(Worse Losers with the ladies than even Betas) might live longer than divorced Betas on average?Yes, that's very possible. Irrelevant though. The vast majority of all men regardless of category will eventually settle down in some way with a woman. Read this and this.
Barry 2020-11-09 20:04:40
Do your books include a step by step guide to how you discuss STDs and pregnancy with each woman? Do you ask if she’s tested as you stare into her eyes after the first kiss? Or do you wait until after you’ve already rolled in the hay together at least once? The former seems presumptuous and the latter is less uncomfortable but too late.
Blackdragon 2020-11-09 21:17:01
Do your books include a step by step guide to how you discuss STDs and pregnancy with each woman?Step by step no but they do discuss how to handle those topics.
Do you ask if she’s tested as you stare into her eyes after the first kiss? Or do you wait until after you’ve already rolled in the hay together at least once?I always ask right before we actually have for the first time (not "after the first kiss").
The former seems presumptuousI don't care how she feels about it. I don't want an STD and she needs to be an adult about this or she can fuck off. It's not like getting an STD test is hard, doubly true for women who need to go in for paps on a regular basis anyway.
doclove 2020-11-10 02:58:35
@Lovergirl I have agreed that married and never divorced people, both men and women, have longer lives than anyone. I simply stated that men and women who never married and divorced lived second longest. Divorced men and women live 3rd longest and widowed men and women live least longest. Do a google search and the internet says all kinds of things. Divorced and widowed men die sooner than never married men. It makes the most sense. If you post your links I will post mine. The problem is the divorce rate ranges from 50% to 76% depending on who you talk to. If women love differently than men then it shows that they love men on average less than men. Women break up the relationships faster on average than men. Women are less likely to die or become wounded or otherwise ruined than men by defending them than the opposite scenario on average. If you do not understand the concept of there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for another then you do not know what love is.
doclove 2020-11-10 03:00:40
@ AlphaOmega. Your comments are solid, but do not engage with minors for romantic or sexual encounter because it could prove ruinous to you and it is wrong.
doclove 2020-11-10 03:07:12
@ Blackdragon I agree that most men will marry or cohabit. However some will stay never married and never cohabitate with a woman, and it is best to advocate staying never married and never cohabit. Some men are like your younger brother who never married and it is best to increase that number and percentage for those who can and will. It is best to tell men the reasons why. One of them is that women love men romantically less than men love women.
AlphaOmega 2020-11-10 04:28:45
but do not engage with minors for romantic or sexual encounter because it could prove ruinous to you and it is wrong.In about half of the world or more you can legally do that with women years younger than the legal age of consent in the USA. (I assume you are from somewhere like USA with legal age of consent being at or around 18, if you are from somewhere normal where its like 14-16 then ignore my comments.) It is also considered normal in those countries and the idea that there is something wrong about it purely cultural and has no other basis. As far as not getting into trouble that should always be something to at least attempt to follow and there are many resources for travelers to know what is and what is not ok in that country. There are countries where you cant do stuff with local women no matter the age without getting into trouble for example. There are also countries where you can marry at younger age legally than the age of consent.
and it is best to advocate staying never married and never cohabitYou can cohabit just not officially.
The problem is the divorce rate ranges from 50% to 76% depending on who you talk to.At this point its not even necessary to look at those rates we can just look at our own experience for those of us who have had multiple women how easily and quickly they leave often out of nowhere and almost always without the man being consulted about it beforehand. Can't really rely on women for commitment in the west anymore which kinda makes marriage obsolete (at least if marriage means forever together for you, if its for some financial, administrative or religious reasons that don't require together forever than thats different but then Id say thats more like what aristocrats used to call political marriage and not what most of us would imagine as real marriage).
Women are less likely to die or become wounded or otherwise ruined than men by defending them than the opposite scenario on average.I don't necessarily disagree that men love women more than the other way around but there is a fundamental flaw in this argument you present here. You can show and express love in different ways just because you dont do the same thing doesnt mean its less. What I see getting confused a lot is love vs attachment. It could be that men get attached way more. You can have attachment in love and you can love without attachment. It doesnt make the love less and in fact one could argue it makes it more pure. What you describe sounds more like attachment. Its very hard for most people to separate that though. I also wonder whether some seemingly heroic acts are not selfless at all in most cases but the person expects something in return, if only something like being praised.
Blackdragon 2020-11-10 09:06:01
However some will stay never married and never cohabitate with a woman, and it is best to advocate staying never married and never cohabit.https://blackdragonblog.com/2014/08/28/why-get-a-prenup-at-all-why-move-in-with-a-woman-at-all/
doclove 2020-11-11 03:04:11
@ AlphaOmega I am an American. It was not always like this in the USA. My great grandmother born in 1900 was a fiance at age 15, married at age 16 and gave birth to her first child and my grandmother at age 17 a month before her 18th birthday, and her husband was born in 1893. If you are American, you can not even be accused much less convicted of having sex with anyone under the age of 18 according to national or federal law. I find it more shocking that you as a man more so than a woman do not fully agree with the statement that there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for another because it means you may not know what love is. I can not truly and fully know another's motivations, but I can know their actions or sometimes lack thereof.
doclove 2020-11-11 03:06:51
@ Blackdragon I agree with you again. However most men can't or won't adopt any part of your system or ideas about Alpha 2 philosophy and lifestyle. Most men won't or can't adopt my idea to never marry, cohabit or have children. that does not mean either of us should stop preaching our ideas.
AlphaOmega 2020-11-11 04:42:36
I can not truly and fully know another’s motivations, but I can know their actions or sometimes lack thereof.This was my point precisely. We do not know the motivation. It may sound like ultimate selflessness but in my view that is rarely the case. By the way history is full of men willingly giving up their life not just for women but for another men (not in romantic sense but as in for his lord for example) or some cause / country etc. Is this love also? You get what I mean now?
If you are American, you can not even be accused much less convicted of having sex with anyone under the age of 18 according to national or federal law.I don't understand this sentence. Did you mean to say that you can? If the sentence is as you intended then it makes no sense because whilst I have never been in the US, the internet is full of men from USA saying how theyd get into trouble or how they did get into trouble for exactly that.
However most men can’tI think its mostly don't want to / don't want to try. Sometimes there are some logistical financial reasons you cannot pull off some of the cohabitation tricks but other than that it's all basic stuff. If you can manage to date women and (eventually) find new women after they dump you there is no reason you cannot make this stuff work. This means the vast majority of men can do it.
Blackdragon 2020-11-11 10:36:35
I agree with you again. However most men can’t or won’t adopt any part of your system or ideas about Alpha 2 philosophy and lifestyle. Most men won’t or can’t adopt my idea to never marry, cohabit or have children. that does not mean either of us should stop preaching our ideas.The difference is that men are more likely to follow my advice (move in with her, fine, you needy pussy, but at least do so under some kind of OLTR model) than your advice (NEVER move in with a woman EVER for the REST OF YOUR LIFE!!!).
Eug 2020-11-11 15:14:09
BD the one part that confuses me about some of your points is... You keep saying that monogomous marriage only works if it's 20, 30 years. That's how you really know it worked. But you've said it yourself about your own non monogomous marriage - that if you guys stay together for 10 or more years (correct me if I'm wrong on this), then you would claim it to be one of the biggest/happiest accomplishments of your life. (paraphrasing) You also define "lonterm" monogamy as more than 3 years. So I assume 10 years would fit that. So if you consider 10 years a win in a non monogomous marriage, then why would a monogomous marriage only "work" if it's 25 years? Doesn't it go both ways?
doclove 2020-11-11 16:05:53
@ AlphaOmega American Federal(National) law since the President Obama administration has prohibited American adult civilians from having sex with minors, anyone under age 18, anywhere in the world. So far the American Federal government has not enforced this in American territories or even upon Americans living in foreign nations. This no sex with anyone under the age of 18 law has been part of the Uniform Code of Military Justice for decades and has been enforced on American military persons worldwide However, I suspect it will be enforced on civilians one day. I believe that any person risking of one's own life for another with full consent being given and being of of sound mind for any reason is an act of the most supreme love no matter what his or her motivations are. One always has a right to say no to that no matter how harsh the consequences may be. Women risking their lives less for men on average than men do for women on average by definition means women love men less than men love women on average since by definition there is no greater love than to lay one's life down for another. Children especially young children are less likely to lay down there lives for their mothers on average than mothers lay down their lives for their children on average so by definition mothers love their children more than children love their mothers on average by definition no matter what the mothers' motivations for doing so are. Risking and laying down of one's own life for another may be misguided, However it is the greatest form of love because overriding one's desire to survive is almost impossible since self survival is a human's greatest instinct and only overcome with great difficulty if it is ever overcome at all and dying for another is the greatest sacrifice one can make for another I agree that most men can get married, cohabit and have children. I just think that in the West especially in the USA it is usually a bad idea as it can be financially, legally and emotionally ruinous to do so, and on average an ever increasing percentage of men will find this to be true because of harsh experience. What nation are you from?
doclove 2020-11-11 16:23:04
@ Blacdragon I have never disagreed that a higher percentage of men will be needy pussies and move in with women. I have never disagreed with you that an OLTR model is the least bad way of doing so. I have agreed with you on this several times. I simply say that it is best to never marry, never cohabit and never have children if you are a Western man especially an American man. It's like asking what is the best way to not get killed in a war. You say kill your enemies first and I say don't be in the war because no matter how good of a soldier you may be or how lucky you may be there is always a possibility your enemy will kill you before you kill him. If you are not in a war then you have no war enemies. Sooner or later most women will want to end the relationship with you as a a man statistically speaking which to some small even if virtually imperceptible degree will be inimical no matter how genuinely friendly the split is.
C Lo 2020-11-12 01:24:17
The vast majority of all men regardless of category will eventually settle down in some way with a woman.Yep. Did that with one for 20 years, and a handful of others afterward for...a few months total.
The difference is that men are more likely to follow my advice (move in with her, fine, you needy pussy, but at least do so under some kind of OLTR model) than your advice (NEVER move in with a woman EVER for the REST OF YOUR LIFE!!!).I don't think that's the right advice for most men. It's just the right advice for me. But I had to be try it a couple of times to realize that I really prefer to be alone, even though I spent the majority of my life thinking I was better off settled down. Anytime you move in with a woman, you lose power and autonomy. That's why soft nexts stop working when you move in. If you don't move in, she retains her attraction for you longer and you don't lose the option of using your option. Options are good. I prefer to sleep alone. Everyone has to make their own decisions.
I simply say that it is best to never marry, never cohabit and never have children if you are a Western man especially an American man.While I agree with you (even though I've been married and lived with women), I don't think most men can follow that advice. They want to be married, cohabit, and have children. You and I are the exception, and Caleb is the rule. Which isn't disrespect, it just is.
AlphaOmega 2020-11-12 03:18:13
prohibited American adult civilians from having sex with minors, anyone under age 18, anywhere in the world.From what I can tell on wikipedia (could be out of date but I doubt it for something so major), the age of consent in the USA depends on the state and is between 16 and 18, depending on the state. What you describe is something I have read that Australia was the only country thinking that its citizens are bound by their age of consent abroad also, seems like USA is trying to join the trend. The idea is laughable though, how can you enforce stuff not happening in your jurisdiction, it doesn't even make any sense from legal point of view. You are bound by the law of the land. Of course some fascists governments think their citizens are their property so they should be bound by the laws also when abroad though its not something that can be legally enforced. Of course such a government which is by definition fascist if they conceive such stuff may chose to ignore due process and simply convict you illegally anyway. Practically this is only possible though if you would return to their jurisdiction. A solution to this is the flags strategy.
for any reason is an act of the most supreme love no matter what his or her motivations are.And here you contradict yourself. Of course, the motivation matters. It could be some selfish motivation, to look good in the eyes of others for example, to die a "heroic death" and so on. Nothing to do with love.
Blackdragon 2020-11-12 10:49:50
BD the one part that confuses me about some of your points is… You keep saying that monogomous marriage only works if it’s 20, 30 years. That’s how you really know it worked.Sort of. Technically it only worked if one of you died before getting a divorce, but if your marriage has lasted at least 20 years then I agree you have a leg to stand on regarding that argument. The problem is all of these idiots on the internet saying they "made monogamy/marraige work" when they've only been married or 2 or 3 years or so. Stupid.
But you’ve said it yourself about your own non monogomous marriage – that if you guys stay together for 10 or more years (correct me if I’m wrong on this), then you would claim it to be one of the biggest/happiest accomplishments of your life. (paraphrasing)Yes. But A) I'm not monogamous and B) my marriage has to be nearly drama free in 10 years for it to count as a win and C) I suffer zero financial or sexual damage if I get divorced. Very different than TMM.
You also define “lonterm” monogamy as more than 3 years. So I assume 10 years would fit that.Correct. "Long-term" does not mean "successful" though. If you were monogamous for 5 years and then broke up, you were monogamous for the long-term, but you were not successful (unless you literally stated at the start of the relationship you were planning on breaking up from this person, but who does that?).
So if you consider 10 years a win in a non monogomous marriage, then why would a monogomous marriage only “work” if it’s 25 years? Doesn’t it go both ways?No because the goal of the OLTR Marriage is not to stay together forever, but it is for TMM. Divorce is likely in both cases. The difference is that it wasn't supposed to happen in a TMM. In an OLTR Marriage it's a perfectly viable option (at certain points at least) since the man is not harmed. That's why you can't get into a TMM and then get divorce after 6 or 7 years and declare that it "worked." By the standard, basic, societal definition of marriage, it failed. But as I've clearly stated in the past, if I get divorced in a few years from Pink Firefly I won't consider it a failure. (Also, remember I consider 10 years in my OLTR Marriage a win for me. I'm not projecting that upon anyone else who gets into an OLTR Marriage as some sort of global standard.)
Blackdragon 2020-11-12 10:51:42
You and I are the exception, and Caleb is the rule.Exactly. That's what doclove doesn't want to hear. He's using too much guy logic.
C Lo 2020-11-12 18:13:59
Exactly. That’s what doclove doesn’t want to hear. He’s using too much guy logic.Logic or not, what's right for you is what's right for you. I mean, I've been there and done that (monogamous, married 20 years, awful divorce, California resident) and I think you've lost your mind on the non traditional situation you've walked in. Too many potholes for me to accept being pair bonded. Not worth the trade off. But who and I to shade you for making your own decisions that make you happy? The only thing that's really wrong is that decision is wrong for me and I can articulate why. You've written books why the decision is right for you. Coincidentally, I know you think my egg is cracked and I need to seek out therapy. I wasted a small fortune and a ton of hours there to learn 1) no, I'm fine and 2) it's only a problem because I want something that I've been societally programed to believe will make me happy but it really wont. I'm just saying that had I known when I was 20 what I know now that I'm 50 (which I couldn't without getting married and divorced) I'd have probably picked a different path. He sounds like he's there, but even if he is and he changes his mind, where's the harm? I wrote a couple of other times, I knew at 12 that I didn't want to have any children and I never did. What I wish someone had explained to me then is "If you choose that unconventional path, don't expect any of the other societal programming rules to work either." He'll figure it out.
doclove 2020-11-12 22:52:26
@ C Lo I agree with what you have written in your past 2 posts. Thanks.
doclove 2020-11-12 23:06:48
@ AlphaOmega The best way not to get caught doing something is not to do it, and I realize you may be falsely accused but it is rare. There is no contradiction in what I said. Not taking motivation into account, the act of laying down one's life for another is the greatest love there is and there is no love which is higher; yet it is in and of itself the most supreme love. Actions and words are by far more relevant than thoughts and feelings and often thoughts and feelings are not relevant at all. Almost no one surrenders their own life to save another without loving the other to some extent. Even if the one surrendering his life for praise still loves the other person enough to want to be praised and therefore loved in return for laying down his life for the other person.
doclove 2020-11-12 23:12:30
@ Blackdragon I have agreed that if you can not or will not follow my advice to never marry, never cohabit and never have children then your Alpha 2 system is best to follow for living in and for this world for yourself. However, my advice that it is better yet still to never marry, never cohabit and never have children is best still stands. You are correct that in some ways that I have more difficulty in getting in touch with my feminine side more than most other men. Thanks.
Blackdragon 2020-11-13 09:07:27
Coincidentally, I know you think my egg is cracked and I need to seek out therapy.Yep. It's clear with almost every comment you make on this topic.
Jennifer 2020-12-05 08:43:00
As a black woman, the reason the divorce rate for black women/white men in America is so low is because literally the only thing we are asking for is to not be cheated on or abused. There is actually data showing that we are more likely to initiate a divorce when cheated on than our white counterparts. It's a really low bar, but our historical counterparts, being "natural alphas" I guess, have consistently not been able to clear it. So when we find a guy from another culture who actually a) does not cheat on us, and (b) does not abuse us physically or verbally, we silently mutter under our breaths that we can't believe it and stay put forever. Or at least, that's what we used to do, before the self-declared swirlers began screaming their gratitude from the rooftops and began urging other black women to get on board. Maybe I'm being naive, but I think it is really unlikely my man will ever cheat on me (there's no doubt in my mind that he won't abuse me). So I can say with confidence that I will never leave and regardless of skepticism I know I mean it. However, it's certainly possible. Garcelle Beauvais' beta cheated and so she filed for divorce. I would do the same.
Blackdragon 2020-12-05 11:58:28
Maybe I’m being naive, but I think it is really unlikely my man will ever cheat on meNot maybe.