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-By Caleb Jones
I had an experience a while ago that I'll talk about in a minute. It hit me that much of outcome independence is simply saying "no" to women. (Of course getting into the habit of saying "no" has tremendous applications in life and business too.)
Saying no to her opinions. Not being afraid to disagree with her, especially on the first date when you're not "comfortable" with her yet.
Saying no to what she wants to go do.
Saying no to spending money on her.
Saying no to her demands.
Saying no to being involved her drama.
Saying no to monogamy or "being exclusive".
Saying no when she begs for sex without birth control.
Saying no to moving in together.
Saying no to marriage (at least the traditional kind).
When you say no to a woman it subcommunicates the message "I don't need you," which one of the most attractive messages you can telegraph to a woman, especially if she's very good-looking or is used to men constantly trying to fuck her (which frankly is most women, even the chubby or ugly ones).
There's a woman in my life who I'll call Sandra. Mid 20's, very hot, very smart career woman. She's one of those few women in that odd category where we've gone out two or three times over the course of a year or two, have been very sexual, but never gotten all the way to sex. Of course, no sex = I bail. So I hadn't seen her in a long while.
A few months back she notified me she was going back to her ex-boyfriend, which is something she's done before. So I did what I always do. I told her I thought that was great, completely cut off all contact with her, went to my spreadsheets and put her on the "Do Not Contact" and "Check Back In With Her In A Few Months" lists.
That was about six months ago. I have not contacted her since. A while back sent me a private "Hey how's it going?" message on Facebook. Allow me to translate this from woman to English. "Hey how's it going" sent out of the clear blue means "Hi. My boyfriend and I just broke up and you've been my secondary backup all this time, so now I'm ready to proceed with dating you."
We fluff talked for a bit and then I asked about her "boyfriend", even though I already knew he was long gone by the time I asked the question (or she would not have contacted me). Here's some of our real our conversation with my comments.
BD How is your man? And your little one?
I added the question about her daughter to make the question more swallowable.
Sandra My little one is wonderful and stubborn and brilliant and beautiful. 🙂 .....and I'm not seeing him anymore. We are much better friends.
Big shock. It's time to proceed to nail down a meet. As usual, I get down to this key issue as fast as possible. Otherwise I'm just wasting my time. Only women who have a date scheduled with me on the calendar deserve my valuable time to "talk". Otherwise I'm outta there. You should assume a similar attitude.
At the same time, I'm not going to meet up with her again if we're not going to end up having sex. So I need to qualify my request. Here's how I did it.
BD Stubborn like mama. 🙂 Under normal conditions I'd say "Cool. Let's hang out early next week." However every time things begin to happen with you and me you have a tendency to go back to the familiar (i.e. your ex). So if you are really prepared to "see" me, then we should definitely hang out next week. If not, that's perfectly okay and we can just be Facebook friends.What am I SUB-communicating to her here? A lot, actually.
1. I want to see you.
2. But I'm not going to waste my time.
3. I expect sexual and/or romantic activity if we meet up again.
4. I don't care if I ever see you in person again.
I'm pressing her attraction button while avoiding her "turn-off" button (like not blatantly asking for sex) or her "make him wait for sex" button (like not agreeing that she's "beautiful" like her daughter, just stubborn). (Soon I'll make a blog post about women's "three buttons".)
Her response? It took her THREE DAYS to respond to what I said. I must have made her think. Or she's just trying to play it cool. A good sign either way. Finally, I get her response:
Sandra Ah how messed up I am. I REALLY enjoy your company, but at this point in my life, I am only interested in friendship. If you are okay with that, then we should do dinner. 🙂
Oh! And she came so close too! But no cigar. We play by my rules or we don't play. So I send her this:
BD The fires of passion are too strong when I'm with you. Which is very, very good, don't get me wrong. But if we spent time together as completely platonic friends, the result would * eventually* be frustration. For both of us. That may or may not make sense to you; if it doesn't, chalk it up to me being an oddball. 🙂
In other words, I told her NO. This hot chick, used to being slobbered over by men her whole life, had a man say NO to her. A very nice "no", to be sure. I even gave her a way out so she would not feel bad. I also used a little logic, which is dangerous, but she's a logical corporate type and someone I already know reasonably well.
That being said, I fought my guy-logic urge to say "You won't understand this, since you're a woman," (since that would just start an argument) and replaced it with some self-deprecating humor instead. But it's a big fat NO nonetheless. Ohhhhhhhh shit. She's not used to that. Not at all.
Her response is two things. First, she sends me this message:
Sandra Boo 🙁
Then she puts a status update/wall post on her own page talking about how she "has feelings" and implied that she felt bad. (I'm not going to post here exactly what she said to protect her anonymity.)
Ah yes. This is one gal who is not used to being told "no" from men.
In the end,
1. I maintained my frame.
2. Didn't waste any of my time or money on something that would not end up in sex.
3. Maintained whatever attraction she does have for me.
4. Maintained her as a strong possibility for the future.
We'll see what happens...
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ARD 2012-03-22 12:15:55
Solid gold!!! If more men lived life with an abundance mentality then saying no to women would be a breeze for them. Unfortunately, this mindset is quite rare, particularly when dealing with beautiful women. Say NO to women...Say YES to money, freedom, sex, and a drama free life.
Jed 2012-03-22 18:24:53
+1 for drama free life. Sleeping with different girls is definitely fun and better than sleeping with just one, but man the drama always seems to sneak up on me.
MetaM 2012-03-24 08:10:49
A keyboard jockey-ish question: What's the reasoning behind saying "No" instead of just going quiet and doing yet another 'mental next'? I think I'd gone quiet after the "I am only interested in friendship". Being a chick, and somewhat familiar with your mode of operating, I think she'd probably get the point -- don't you think?
Blackdragon 2012-03-24 11:22:01
How you say no isn't as important as saying it. If you "go slient" after a request like that, you're saying no. You're just being nice about it, which you certainly should do when the request is a relationship-based one. If the request/demand/complaint is a bitchy one or a silly one, you don't need to be as nice.
MetaM 2012-03-24 11:28:15
Thanks for the clarification.
PUA Express » Saying NO To Women Is Good 2012-03-24 21:22:55
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Texture 2012-03-25 00:47:34
I actually think you are putting yourself in a weak position here by verbalising the matrix and using logic, all in a long message where you invest too much. Either announce your alternate frame with a innuendo, or don't reply at all. But what do I know, I'm quite new at this.
raiderduck 2012-03-25 04:24:02
Blackdragon, as she didn't want to get sexual with you, why do you think she messaged you out of the blue in the first place? You said you assume shes had you tagged as her go to guy after her breakup, but apparently this wasn't the case. Your thoughts?
Blackdragon 2012-03-25 11:00:26
Blackdragon, as she didn’t want to get sexual with you, why do you think she messaged you out of the blue in the first place? You said you assume shes had you tagged as her go to guy after her breakup, but apparently this wasn’t the case. Your thoughts?My guess is that because we have not gotten all the way to sex yet, I'm now stuck in her "quality-guy-make-him-wait-for-sex" zone. So she likely does want to have sex with me, but only if I jump through all of her societally-programmed hoops. Which of course I will not do. That's only a guess of course.
Bobby Gemini 2012-03-29 14:55:14
I agree with the premise, saying "no"...but nothing will ever happen with this woman because it already hasn't. If she was truly attracted to you, you would have already had sex.... If it doesn't happen on first or second date it's not gonna happen- generally...You would have been better off ignoring her or insulting her.
Alejandro 2012-05-03 11:54:13
But isn't verbalizing sex like one of the big NOs in PUA??? Or is that something you can do after you have gotten sexual with her?? Maybe you could have go for a meet and escalated to sex, but by verbalizing it you activated her ASD very much...I had something similar happen to me recently, and I did something around the lines of what you reccomen here, but I fucked it up. Now I get the feeling it would have been better to simply isolate and push for the sex...but my situation is kind of a compicated one.
Blackdragon 2012-05-04 13:17:37
But isn’t verbalizing sex like one of the big NOs in PUA?Verbalizing direct sexual action is usually a bad idea, and it's something I almost never do. This was an unusual case.
Greg 2014-05-24 15:57:43
How did this Sandra evolve?
Blackdragon 2014-05-24 21:49:16
I never saw her in person again, which is for the best. Occasionally, though very rarely, she'll text me or hit me up on Facebook.
Hanson 2016-03-15 21:30:57
This is my first time here. My compliments to you, BD, for posting a real situation which does not end in sex, but is very instructive in that: Us newbies see that even "veterans" like yourself don't have sex 100% of the time. This takes pressure off of us. We learn how to NOT burn a bridge when we don't get what we really want, which inevitably happens sometimes. Some authors pretend they ALWAYS get exactly what they want. Thank you.
Norski 2020-04-30 22:04:18
I just modeled this myself for a situation with an LSNFTE that I have profoundly great chemistry with. She's in a dysfunctional OLTR that's "drama monogamous" for the time being and she wanted to hang out as friends. No. Thanks for the case study to emulate, I love how it feels being completely in the drivers seat in my woman life and getting more attraction and respect instead of the bullshit bottom feeding that was the alternative I lived a few years ago. I see potential with this one so I'm keeping course and staying on target with everything I have. Following my rules above all else