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Older Women vs. Younger Women – Chemistry vs. Attraction
Many years ago when I was dating a lot more women over the age of 33, I heard them often use a particular word during the first few dates. This word: chemistry. Many women at this age range used this word a lot. They spoke of it as if it was something very important and very hard to find. It was a big deal to them.
-By Caleb Jones
Women over the age of 33 are correct; “chemistry” is quite rare. It’s quite possible for a woman over the age of 33 to go on ten first dates and not have “chemistry” with any of those men, forcing her to continue her search. However, if a woman under the age of 33 goes on ten first dates, she’s very likely to find at least one guy she likes a great deal, regardless of if she finds chemistry or not.
Why is this?
This is because, generally speaking, women over the age of 33 are looking for chemistry, while women under the age of 33 are looking for attraction. These are two very different things.
Attraction is achieved when a woman is A) turned on by you at least to some degree and B) feels at least somewhat safe with you.
Whether or not she feels safe with you is based solely on your behavior during dates. This is tied to being horny vs. being sexual, something I cover in detail in my ebooks. Horny is threatening and a turn-off. Sexual is attractive and safe. Whether or not she feels attracted to you is a result of her embedded number and how well you rank against that number based on your appearance and behavior. I explain that in this article here.
Attraction isn’t very complicated. If she likes you and feels at least somewhat safe, you’re in. She’ll have sex with you relatively quickly. Even if you screw a few things up, she’ll still probably have sex with you. Of course you can completely screw things up and lose her before you have sex, but that usually means you didn’t make her feel safe; she was probably still attracted to you but she couldn’t go there because she felt threatened in some way.
Chemistry sounds like it's the same as attraction, but it’s a completely different thing. It’s much more complicated and delicate. Attraction is the combination of being turned on and feeling safe. Chemistry is the combination of attraction and compliance to a predetermined checklist.
Attraction is one key component of chemistry. She has to be attracted to you or there’s no chemistry. However, once she’s attracted to you, she now needs another layer of complexity that most younger women don’t care about. You now need to comply with a checklist of qualities she’s preselected for the ideal boyfriend or husband. Since most women over age 33 in the dating pool are provider hunters, this extra aspect is important to them.
You’re on a first date with a 37 year-old woman looking for chemistry. You both start talking, and you look good to her. You’re able to carry on a conversation without looking like a dork, and you’re not too needy. Now she’s attracted. Well done, but she’s not looking for attraction. She’s looking for chemistry.
Half an hour into the conversation you’re both talking about your pasts, and you mention you voted for George W. Bush. She’s a left-winger, so immediately you’ve violated one of the items on her internal checklist (“He can’t be a conservative.”). You also mention several times that you really enjoy going fishing. She visualizes how gross fish are and how much they stink. Unwittingly, you’ve violated another item on her list (“He needs to be a clean-cut guy.”).
You don’t have to actually say something to violate a chemistry-seeker’s checklist. It’s very easy to destroy chemistry nonverbally. Maybe you have a habit of scratching the back of your hand, or of brushing hair away from your forehead. Maybe the tone of voice you use with the waitstaff isn’t what she would visualize the ideal future boyfriend/husband would use. So even if you carefully control everything you say during a first date (which you should) you can still easily violate a woman’s checklist and make chemistry impossible.
After the date, you text her and she doesn’t respond. You never hear from her again. When her girlfriend asks about the date, she casually remarks that you were a cute and cool guy but there “wasn’t any chemistry.” It’s not that she wasn’t attracted to you. She was! You simply violated a few items on her list, eliminating the feminine concept of "chemistry."
A few hours later she has sex with you, and it’s amazing for both of you. Six months later, you’re both still dating, really care for one another, and are both having a great time. During all this, that 37 year-old woman is still going out on first dates, looking for chemistry, not finding it, getting exasperated, and bitching about “where have all the good men gone?”
While the 26 year-old, seeking attraction, is having orgasms with you and having a great time. The 37 year-old, seeking chemistry, goes home to her vibrator.
Which one is happier?
Which one has a more positive view of dating?
Which one has a more positive view of men?
If you’ve been on lots of first dates with women over age 33 and under age 33 like I have, you already know the answer.
Your Influence Over Attraction vs. Chemistry
Attraction is directly within your control. You have vast control over your physical appearance, your fashion, and how you behave on a first and second date. Of course you can’t have sex with any woman you want; that’s a PUA myth. However, by controlling these three variables, you can create attraction with a much higher percentage of women you meet. I’m living proof of this. Years ago I had lots of trouble creating attraction because all three of those variables were not optimal. Today they are (within reasonable constraints), so creating attraction on a first or second date for me is very easy. My results reflect this, as will yours.
Chemistry isn’t really within your realm of control at all. Since attraction is 50% of chemistry, you can improve your odds of chemistry a little by ensuring attraction more often. The problem is you don’t know the exact checklist of that woman sitting next to you at the bar or standing next to you at the bookstore. The only way to ensure you create chemistry with a new woman (once you have attraction) is to extract a copy of her checklist from her brain, memorize it, and then make sure not to say or do anything that violates anything on that list.
Worse, you may find items on that list unacceptable to you. I don’t like to wait for sex past the second date, and refuse to wait past the third. So I’ve destroyed chemistry with many over-33 women who were very attracted to me simply because I tried to have sex with them on the second or even third date. Since one of the items on their checklist was “He’s a gentleman and doesn’t try to have sex with me before we’ve been dating for a few weeks,” I violated chemistry (on purpose in this case) and I was out.
The point is, even if I was aware those women had that rule, I would have violated that rule anyway. I’m not waiting for five or six dinner dates before I have sex with someone. Are you fucking kidding me? What if she decides to dump me on dinner date number four? (Which, by the way, women do to guys all the time, and did to me back when I was stupid enough to go along with this system.)
Again, the level of attraction these women feel for you is completely irrelevant, and this is key point many Alphas misunderstand when I discuss the problems with getting to sex quickly with women over the age of 33. I’ve relayed real-life stories before about over-33, chemistry-seeking women I was on dates with who were so turned on by me that even though they resisted sex when I tried, they instead ran home, masturbated while thinking about me, and texted me and told me all about it. I had attraction nailed, but I didn’t achieve chemistry. So I never had sex with these women.
This is one of the many reasons I stopped cold-approaching (online or in real life) any women over the age of 33 several years ago, and never regretted that decision. Every first date with new woman I have these days is with a woman seeking attraction, not chemistry. Attraction is largely within my control, and I have that nailed, so my results on any given under-33 dating blitz are always good.
I still have sex with women over 33 all the time; I love older women, but these are women I already know somehow. They’re not strangers I met at the grocery store or on a dating site. If you already know them, the need for chemistry is short-circuited, so it’s not nearly as much of a problem. However, if I’m looking to schedule first dates with strangers, I never go above age 33 no matter how attractive they are or how eager they seem. The vast majority of those women are looking for chemistry, not attraction, therefore going out on a first date with a woman like this is going to be a waste of both my time and my money.
Even worse, as an Alpha Male 2.0, I’m almost guaranteed to violate several items on her checklist no matter how careful I am. Of course I could lie, but I refuse to lie to women in order to get laid or to establish a relationship. Lying = drama, and I don't do drama, so I don't lie. I'd rather next Ms. Inflexible and move on to the next woman on the list. Beta males (and the Alpha 1.0s who are good actors) have better odds...or rather, less bad odds at violating these internal feminine rules. So next time a woman starts talking about “chemistry,” be aware that she’s talking about something you have almost no control over, and it might be time to cut your losses and get out of there.
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Al 2015-09-21 05:22:17
Great post BD and you are spot on. However, let me add to this if I may. There is another facet to this. I have encountered several instances of getting to sex quickly with a 33+ and indeed carrying on for several weeks or even months, never knowing (because all seemed to be going well) that I was violating several things on the checklist. (Some women keep this list well hidden for a while, I guess to see if they can work on you.) And then. Bam! The complaints start. Mild at first but growing stronger as the realisation hits them that I am not going to conform. It matters not I guess as the sex is good while it lasts. But just a warning to the wise here. The scenarios you describe make it easy to identify who you've got and to say goodbye in the very early stages. The snag starts when sex DOES occur early, because the result will be the same. They're gone. 🙂
karen 2015-09-21 06:02:39
Your generalizations of women over 33 are becoming trite. The all or nothing philosophies you run with are inaccurate and unfair to all women. Sadly, there are men who hang on every word you write as though they are unable to think for themselves. Your statements are YOUR opinions. Not all women are THIS; not all women are the cancers you tell men to avoid. You are incorrect in this blog. Some women do gave a mental list. I do not. I'm looking for an attraction & im much older than 33. Give women a break. With your blogs bring followed to a "T", we could sure use some.
Al 2015-09-21 06:21:45
Hi Karen! 😀 A woman with no list. 🙂 I'm much older than 33 too. I'd love to meet you. We'd move quickly to sex and I'd see you once a week. During that one time a week, I will treat you like a lady, behave like a gentleman and cater to all your whims. We'll have sex each time and lots of fun. We can go out too. And sometimes you can pay for it all, or we can go halves. How does that sound? Hell, I'll even cook dinner for you at your place or mine. I can actually cook quite well. Of course, on other days, I will be seeing, and having sex with, other women or working hard. Oh, and I won't marry you or live with you. How is that list? 😀
maldek 2015-09-21 06:29:20
chemistry = Male thoughts in a female brain As a man gets into his mid 30s his SMV is near its peak. We got more money than we had in our 10s and 20s. We got a lot more experience; with women, with business and with life in general than we had earlier. We also may have social skills, based on years of self-improvement, we did not have back in the day. In short, a quality male in his mid 30s has earned the right to pick only hot girls. When he was early 20s with no career and living with his parents he couldnt be like that. Every girl friend was a unique snowflake, maybe the only option he had for months. What a difference to today. Now lets looks at the girls. Women are the exact opposite. Without doing much in terms of self improvement, career or whatever they get the jackpot handed over by the age of 16-24. Ultra hot body, fertile and an ocean of males who all want to have sex with her. Life is great and WILL NEVER BE LIKE THAT EVER AGAIN IN HER LIFE, NO MATTER WHAT SHE DOES! No career, no amount of money nor life experience (aka many sex partners included) will improve her situation even 1%. As she gets older this massive SMV value goes down. It starts at the wrong side of 25 and gets worse after 30. By the age of 40 even the few hotties are way below their peak SMV while most are in the 1-3 SMV range and considered unbangable by men with options. Now the grave error city-dwelling-females often make is this. They assume they are like males with boobs. With 20 something they can screw around because it does not matter much - later, after her PHD/career she will have much better options and marry Mr. perfect. A reasonable life plan for a male; but a disaster for women. A SMV 8 girl @20 can reasonably get that quality man with SMV 8/9 and maybe even pick "The one" out of several great options. The same SMV 7.5 girl @25 can get a good SMV8 man and be happy with quality kids and all. The same SMV 7 girl @30 may be able to get this SMV 7 man who she knew for many years but never considered more than a "friend" until recently. The same SMV 6 girl @35 can thank all her personal angels to get that SMV 6 man who was just recently divorced and choose her out of his pool of 50 dating prospects 35+. The same SMV 5 girl (after breast augmentation and other cosmetic upgrades) @40 just hit the jackpock with SMV 5 man, divorced with 2 children from earlier relationships who makes half of what she does. The same SMV 1 girl @50 just bought 5 cats and the book "Why solitude with cats is the best".
karen 2015-09-21 06:33:22
Al, Sounds good to me. I'm agree totally with Shari g dinner expenses. I have a lovely home and do not wish to share it with anyone, by marriage or living together. I want to gave fun, be with someone who laughs with me and knows how to please me sexually.
Al 2015-09-21 06:38:34
@ Karen. I believe you but you are the exception to the rule. You must know that? That is the point being made here. Shame, I guess we are on different continents. It's late here. Have a great day, sincerely. 🙂 @maldek. What you say is true, so true. But when you meet a real hottie of 45 plus, god they are amazing if they want you. But the drama and entitlement that comes with it is just too much! 🙁
Lee 2015-09-21 06:40:36
Single women over the age of 35 can be as crazy as a sith jedi. and watch out for the ones who are into jogging etc.
Al 2015-09-21 06:43:15
@ Lee Ahhh.....jogging! Shit, I knew I'd overlooked something. I wish I'd known that sooner! 😀 Thanks for the tip.
karen 2015-09-21 06:43:16
Al, Forgive my typos, I was using my phone :(. To BD - just a suggestion, but since you're in your 40s, perhaps you should wisely limit your input about women to the 40 somethings. Older men and women are on a different playing field (ie, no kids or kids are out of the house, nearing retirement, needs/desires are different from 30-40 yo women wanting a new "daddy" for their kids or want to be taken care of). Thanks for "listening".
Dan 2015-09-21 06:46:15
Another excellent article… as I always say. “All women have baggage, the older they are the more baggage they have.” Another thought BD… could it be that they have already been there done that (the attraction thingy) when they were younger and are now just employing a better, more improved “supply/demand” manipulation technique ( “I’ll hold out so I can get more of his gifts, money, time, attention, etc”) which is fulfilling her hidden VAGENDA. In other words, I find that all women leverage sex for a reward (gifts, money, etc..)… it’s just that the older they are, the more serious they are about getting that reward or BBD (Bigger Better Deal). Knowing well in advance (from experience) that all men love and need sex, she’ll hold out, play games…knowing that when the sex does happen, she’ll have less leverage…At 30+ … she’s experienced the “after sex” power dynamics shift in the man’s favor..many times, so now she has an incorporated hard fast rule she (and all her girls) lives by thus guaranteeing a higher success rate of return for minimum effort. Your thought, please….
Tony 2015-09-21 07:02:28
As a younger guy, I I've never dated a woman even close to 33, but when a woman turns me down they almost always say there was no "connection". I wondered what the hell a "connection" was, but then I figured it's probably just a polite way of saying they weren't attracted.
CaveClown 2015-09-21 07:17:12
Karen, By definition an opinion can not be "wrong" Definition: "a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." You can disagree, but it can not be wrong. BD, men do the same to a much lesser extent, no? I can find a woman attractive, fuck her, and not like her one bit. But the opposite is true too. Some chicks have nice personalities. So we do the same, we are just far less inflexible about it? (Why would I care who she voted for as long as she is not spouting off liberal rhetoric every five minutes?)
Al 2015-09-21 07:32:50
Why would I care who she voted for as long as she is not spouting off liberal rhetoric every five minutes?Quite. In the very early initial stages, men and women have the same (short) check list and it's all about appearance. Clean, well presented, well or appropriately dressed, etc., etc. That's the attraction. Men especially, respond to what they see. BUT after a very short while, the much longer female checklist kicks in. Women respond to what they hear. That starts the chemistry. Also, we shouldn't confuse this chemistry as used here, with sexual chemistry, which is what a lot of people mean when they use the single word chemistry. I wonder who invented blow jobs? He deserves a medal. Other than the obvious pleasures, it does make it difficult to talk...................
Bobby 2015-09-21 07:36:55
@Al ... lol .. . You are the best! @DB .. . for the love of god never stop handing out advice about women of all ages!. A lot of the things you have on your blog are things that I already knew but couldn't quite put into words. Other things you have written about have opened up my eyes to a whole new way of thinking. Thank you.
JRM 2015-09-21 07:37:58
I don't agree with this post at all and I'm willing to bet it's due to BD's age. I'm 30 and mostly date women 22-30, and some over 33. I hear the words "chemistry" all the time from women 22 -30, because they're most likely sizing me up as a potential LTR that not only requires attraction, but also chemistry (a spark). If a girl's 22, she knows the deal when she goes on a date with a 40 yr old BD, she's not looking to to have chemistry with him and get into an LTR, she knows it's going to be for sex (attraction). She may want an LTR with him after awhile because of all the alpha traits he has, but I highly doubt she's thinking about that at the beginning since he may be 10-15 years older than her. However, I never hear the word "chemistry" from an older woman because they know we are just there to see if we want to screw each other. I think chemistry is real because some women I just "click" with - our humor is the same, conversation flows nicely and there's a certain spark. Thinking about it, I don't think it has anything to with compliance - just two human beings who get along who also want to screw each other's brains out.
lazy guy 2015-09-21 07:50:09
BD, your explanation about the distinctions is fascinating and helpful. I always value clarity where senseless puzzlement prevails. So often a great beginning with a new woman was abruptly followed by a baffling silence (not face to face) when I had done nothing that a sane adult would consider 'bad'. My impression was it's like walking a tightrope -- I have zero margin for error -- and she requires me to be a mind reader so that I can perfectly conform to her rigidly precise requirements. It seems to me one of these rules might be how soon I must contact her after the first date. Sometimes it seems she is thinking 'It must be between 18.29 and 21.37 hours later, or else forget him.' Apparently this is her way to gauge my precise level of interest in her, and she demands that my interest be exactly 87.953%, or else my interest in her is either too weak or too strong (too indifferent or too eager; I'm too available or not available enough). But of course I realize I could be wrong about these things; these are just my impressions (and best guesses) when I was baffled by mystifying behavior. IMO, one of the most intriguing elements of this topic is the way that people perpetuate self-defeating patterns without realizing that THEY are the reason they continue to be frustrated, unhappy, etc. We can be so blind to our own self-defeating traits; blaming the wrong source of the problem; futile in our efforts to fix it... naturally I include myself in this comment ...
Al 2015-09-21 08:01:58
@ lazy guy
My impression was it’s like walking a tightrope — I have zero margin for error — and she requires me to be a mind reader so that I can perfectly conform to her rigidly precise requirements. It seems to me one of these rules might be how soon I must contact her after the first date. Sometimes it seems she is thinking ‘It must be between 18.29 and 21.37 hours later, or else forget him.’ Apparently this is her way to gauge my precise level of interest in her, and she demands that my interest be exactly 87.953%, or else my interest in her is either too weak or too strong (too indifferent or too eager; I’m too available or not available enough).You got that right. All I'd say is, if it's like walking on eggshells, walk away and be grateful you discovered this behaviour so early. But then you know that. Like you, I find that BD's ability to frame these issues in precise terms is so helpful with things that I already knew, but didn't know I knew. If that makes sense. It makes walking the maze that is the female mind so much easier.
lazy guy 2015-09-21 08:07:43
BD, would you agree that one might simply state that most women over age 33 are holding out for 'the package deal' and insist that any intimate relationship with a man must be either 'all or nothing'? This might even seem 'almost, sort of' feasible, if not for the fact that the list of rigid demands remains secret and she requires a man to be a mind-reader. That secrecy element is just so unreasonable it is funny, even though self-defeating behavior can be so sad to see...
CrabRangoon 2015-09-21 08:11:25
Good stuff BD! Perhaps I've used the wrong wording but I've always spoke on the difference between attraction and arousal with women. Attraction in my mind was the "good on paper" guy with many attractive qualities, but who didn't give her the "tingles". Arousal is the guy she wants to screw so bad it's all she can think about, even though he may not be good on paper at all. Alpha Fux/Beta Bux, or Dads/Cads as it's been said around these parts.
Dawson Stone 2015-09-21 08:57:00
@CaveClown Of course opinions can be wrong. You definition is what the word means...not that it can't be retarded (aka dead wrong). If someone has the opinion that all women have three tits is that opinion not wrong? If someone has the opinion that all women are dumber than all men...again...dead wrong. But on to the point the post is about. Like most good generalizations that are generally right. First of all we ALL have lists. We don't want a woman that has a bitchy attitude, hits us up for money, is a financial train wreck, is insecure, is jealous, creates drama, etc. etc. etc. Maldek's SMV analysis is spot on. Younger women have lists too...they are just different lists since they have longer high SMV ahead of them. As a women gets older and her SMV declines or is about to decline her behavior changes. This is totally rational behavior. Since most women are not financially self-sufficient at the level of lifestyle they would like they require a man to provide it or at least make up the difference. To be fair I have met women in their early 20s that are laser focused on finding a provider while their SMV is at its peak (one could argue this is an outcome maximizing strategy) but the older a woman gets the more frantic she becomes about finding a provider as her time at higher SMV is dwindling. I have also met women that are in their mid to late 30s that are totally chill but they usually have these qualities: - They already have at least one child (and probably don't want any more) - They are financially independent and don't need a man to live the lifestyle they want - They are still in good shape and are attractive These women aren't looking for a provider (although they want a successful guy and not a mooch), they aren't looking for a baby daddy and they aren't looking for sexual validation. If you stick to women like this they behave much more like the 18-24 yo crowd. I am traveling to NYC for business next week and have already arranged to meet a super fit and attractive 36 yo. She has her own business and already has a kid. She's all about sex and having a great time. The point I think Karen was trying to make (please correct me if I am wrong) is that if you are too intellectually lazy to evaluate each individual you can miss out on some great women. While I generally date women under 24, when a cool chick presents herself at any age that I am attracted to, I evaluate each one independently. The argument against my position I guess is that having the filters is a time-saver. I actually don't think it saves much time at all (especially in the SDD world) because I always sexually escalate quickly via text and the women that don't want to have fun filter themselves out very fast.
KaiserSoze 2015-09-21 09:20:58
@karen - a woman with no checklist?! HahahahahahahahHaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! That's the kind of crazy talk that can only come from someone who has never dated women.
Bulma78 2015-09-21 09:27:42
I agree that what BD says here is meant to describe the majority of girls he’s known, not the exceptions to the rule and he’s explained this many times. I’m an exception to the rule, or else I wouldn’t be interested in reading his posts. I have a mental checklist obviously, but it’s very short. The bad would have to outweigh the good in order for me to stop seeing someone because of it. Alot of times guys have many good qualities where it doesn’t make sense to ditch them just because they have a few bad ones. I’m guilty once of having a long relationship with a guy that had more bad points than good. I wrote him off pretty quickly in my mind, but continued to keep seeing him simply because I was attracted to him and we were having a lot of fun. I’m 36 and I don’t have any baggage at all (no kids, never been married, never even lived with a guy). Also, I run/jog but I’m not hardcore into it……..so maybe it’s just the hardcore runners that are bat-$hit crazy? I’d estimate that I’m only about 10% crazy, so I guess that’s not me. And I bet nobody can name one woman that isn’t at least a little crazy? I think being crazy is only bad when it makes you look foolish. If you are a girl that is 0% crazy, then you’re just boring and guys won't like you anyways. You have to at least be a little crazy to be fun.
KaiserSoze 2015-09-21 09:48:56
I think some of you are getting too hung up on your own subjective definition of what the word chemistry means to you. If you think about it, it's a rather vague term when applied to one's interaction with the opposite sex. I think to most men chemistry implies sexual chemistry (I.e. The degree to which you would love to get naked with her). However to most women, and especially older ones which I think is BD's point here, it can be a rather amorphous term. If a women is in provider hunter/husband seeking mode it's the perfect excuse for why she axed what appeared to most outsiders to be a perfectly decent male prospect. Those of you who have been in serious relationships with women over the age of 33 (I actually think BD's threshold of 33 is quite generous) ....think how many arguments you've had over trivial issues like the way you drive, how you packed the dishwasher or the behavior of your dog, friends or some such garbage. That's usually the result of a women's check list alarm going off over some perceived mismatch between her requirements and your actual behavior. A younger woman will shrug it off or at worst sulk for a bit. An older women in provider hunter mode will totally freak out in fear that's she's chosen the wrong guy. When she totally loses it with you over something minor like that, she's actually losing it with herself for not choosing the accountant she met two weeks before you. So heed BDs chemistry advice, regardless is whether you have a slightly different, personal definition of the term.
Blackdragon 2015-09-21 09:49:50
Your generalizations of women over 33 are becoming trite. The all or nothing philosophies you run with are inaccurate and unfair to all women. Sadly, there are men who hang on every word you write as though they are unable to think for themselves. Your statements are YOUR opinions. Not all women are THIS; not all women are the cancers you tell men to avoid. You are incorrect in this blog. Some women do gave a mental list. I do not. I’m looking for an attraction & im much older than 33. Give women a break. With your blogs bring followed to a “T”, we could sure use some.Sigh. One. Blackdragon: Asian men are shorter than white men. Angry reader: No! No they aren't!!! I know an Asian guy who is 6'3". Your generalizations about Asian men are becoming trite. They are unfair to Asian men. Saying Asian guys are shorter than white guys? That's just YOUR opinion. Not all Asian men are like this. You are incorrect in this blog. Some Asian guys are super tall. I'm an Asian guy, and I'm tall, therefore you are wrong. Give Asian guys a break. When you point out the rare exceptions to a rule in order to prove a point, you A) prove me right and B) you don't realize how dumb you sound when you attempt to make your argument. Just like with long-term monogamy, just like with getting laid on Tinder, just like with winning the lottery, there are always exceptions to every rule. The exceptions prove the rule. Two. As I have said perhaps hundreds of times over the years, the fact there some rare over-33 women who love to fuck men on the 1st or 2nd date with zero problems is completely irrelevant. This is because I (and most other men) have no interest in going out on 25 first dates (with all the required 2nd and 3rd dates) just to look for one or two exceptions to the rule, when I can go out on 2 or 3 first dates with women under 33, have sex quickly and be happy. The fact there are exceptions doesn't help men at all. Scream it to the rooftops if you wish; it doesn't help us. I'm giving advice to the masses here, not to one or two individuals, and based on that reality my advice is valid. If you're upset about this, get upset at your fellow over-33 women who are pissy about first time sex and thus turn away sex-positive Alphas in droves. Don't get upset with me because I'm simply relaying a fact.
Parade 2015-09-21 10:38:27
Or point out some 'tells' that mark an over-33 woman as the 'sex loving' kind and not the 'provider hunting' kind. (Or a way to test it before committing much time to the interaction) I don't think anyone is saying over-33 chicks are damaged goods. The problem is that the signal to noise ratio doesn't work out.
Jack Outside the Box 2015-09-21 14:01:37
In my experience, the general difference between good women and bad women is this: Good women act like heterosexuals who receive sex from men. Bad women act like asexuals who give sex to men. That's it really. And yes, there are way more bad women in their 30s and 40s than there are in their teens and 20s. Just to fuck with these bad women, I would love to set up an online profile in which I act just like them. I'll throw out a list of qualifications and required behavioral traits. I will demand certain demeanors and actions in an inflexible tone "if you want the privilege of dating me or sleeping with me." I will also say that they must pay for me on the date because, after all, I'm worth it. I'm a prince and I expect to be treated like one! I'm not some cheap loser! If you refuse, you're obviously a shallow woman who should have taken the time to see how amazing I really am! Then I will receive angry emails and accusations about what a stuck up and delusional idiot I am, while I laugh at their hypocrisy and lack of ability to look in the mirror!
Blackdragon 2015-09-21 16:02:23
could it be that they have already been there done that (the attraction thingy) when they were younger and are now just employing a better, more improved “supply/demand” manipulation technique ( “I’ll hold out so I can get more of his gifts, money, time, attention, etc”) which is fulfilling her hidden VAGENDA. Knowing well in advance (from experience) that all men love and need sex, she’ll hold out, play games…knowing that when the sex does happen, she’ll have less leverage…At 30+ … she’s experienced the “after sex” power dynamics shift in the man’s favor..many times, so now she has an incorporated hard fast rule she (and all her girls) lives by thus guaranteeing a higher success rate of return for minimum effort. BD, would you agree that one might simply state that most women over age 33 are holding out for ‘the package deal’ and insist that any intimate relationship with a man must be either ‘all or nothing’?All the above is true. There are many reasons for the ASD spike that occurs with women in their early 30s. Here are the big ones (though not all): 1. Increased level of "girl game." ("I can get more attention / money / free stuff / free food and drinks if I hold out, like this...") 2. Provider-hunting. 3. Increased sense of their own desirability. Who would be more picky, the woman who's had men try to have sex with her for 5 years, or 15 years? 4. Ticking biological clock (in some cases). 5. Fear of being in her 30s and not being married yet (or again). 6. More jaded and suspicious of men, dating, and relationships. How many failed relationships has a 21 year old woman had? Now how many has as 37 year old woman had? How many shitty first dates? How many affairs? Etc. This is why the odds are stacked against you when you try to have sex with an over-33 you just met on a first (or even second) date, even if you're good.
BD, men do the same to a much lesser extent, no? I can find a woman attractive, fuck her, and not like her one bit.But you fucked her, and that's the difference.
Good women act like heterosexuals who receive sex from men. Bad women act like asexuals who give sex to men.Wow, GREAT quote, and accurate. Stolen.
Al 2015-09-21 18:58:47
An older women in provider hunter mode will totally freak out in fear that’s she’s chosen the wrong guy. When she totally loses it with you over something minor like that, she’s actually losing it with herself for not choosing the accountant she met two weeks before you.💡 Thank you for this. 🙂 You've identified the cause of a behaviour which has had me mystified for some years now. It also begs the question, why doesn't she go out with me and the accountant? Because she is still looking for monogamy. Something that took me way, way too long to realise is the change in women through their decades.
Al 2015-09-21 19:18:28
@ lazy guy
BD, would you agree that one might simply state that most women over age 33 are holding out for ‘the package deal’ and insist that any intimate relationship with a man must be either ‘all or nothing’?I know you didn't ask me but. I am sure that you are right. I can cite an extreme example of this. A girl with whom I had had regular sex disappeared due to this stance. She then got in touch and asked me out. At one point during the evening, I took her hand as we crossed the road. She took her hand away and said that as I couldn't (or wouldn't) give her everything, I wasn't even allowed to touch. Can you believe that??? Such is the conflict in her head caused by ASD, Disney, SP etc. versus the desire to have sex with someone who gives her pleasure, that it seems she can feel better about herself if she at least gets one "platonic" date out of someone before sex happens again. Anyway, I just kept my distance, appeared to be outcome dependant and we had sex later. Ho hum.
Sachmo 2015-09-21 20:15:41
@Dan "which is fulfilling her hidden VAGENDA." ha ha ha ha ha, great line, consider it stolen.
Dan 2015-09-21 20:54:57
@Sachmo...All yours my friend.. I have many more.... here's a few... Sexploitation (when woman use sex to exploit a man for his assets). Sexduction ( when a woman seduces a man through sex). ASSets (when she uses her ASS to get your Assets).... ATM (Ass & Tittie Machine) and/or (Attention Time Money) The 3 things a girl can never get enough of. Whorelogy (the scientific study of how a whore thinks and behave). I can do this all night...hahahaha... anyways, enjoy.
Minister 2015-09-21 21:21:50
Recently, I went on a date with a 24 years old girl I met online that told me and I quote that she wants to be stimulated by a man on a celestral level. As you can imagine, at a point I was losing strangely attraction. I did't do anything blatant, she just started getting more and more unresponsive, although she was totally into me in the beginning. Whatsoever, I kissed her. A couple of days later she ditched the first meet and as I found out, she did't like that I kissed her. I know you are not a fan of first date kiss, but my understanding is that, from the moment she didn't want to be kissed, it was already a game over. So, could it be that the "stimulation on a celestral level", she was talking about, is another variation of chemistry?
John 2015-09-22 02:39:38
This post is spot on! Being a 41 year old, most of the dates I go on are from women online who are 33+ and I can't get laid to save myself with them, even ones on tinder, heck even getting a 2nd date is a struggle. I just couldn't work it out and it was making me angry and misogynistic. Like you said they would say "Your a nice/ cool guy, but no chemistry or spark". Yet I banged a 25 year old with ease on our 2nd date. I'm seriously thinking of fucking off post 33 women and experiment with just chicks in their 20's and see what happens.
lazy guy 2015-09-22 04:53:39
@ Al ... I enjoy your comments & examples. The 'all or nothing' mentality can be seen widely in various ways. It often results in 'nothing' when it would've been better to have 'something'. Example: with fitness goals, it is easy to slip into a mentality where you want to do your full two hour workout every time, and on days when you lack time or energy to do that, you don't go to the gym; you don't do any exercise at all. Many of my friends w/full time jobs & families slip into this mentality and do no exercise at all. Their bodies are looking bad now. I 'coach' them on the value of doing just two minutes a day (way better than NOTHING). Even with my awareness, I still struggle against slipping into the 'all or nothing' mentality. It isn't just what you choose to do, it's also how you choose to feel about the choice you made. Dealing with women, for me the 'all or nothing; package deal' mentality has been a recurring odious obstacle to pleasure & joy ever since I started wanting anything from women. It seems to be such a foolish reason for stopping so much potential happiness from happening. It seems the higher the value a woman sees in you, the more she is happily willing to accept whatever limited positive exchange you choose to have with her. Having a lot of value to offer doesn't affect the 'negotiation' if she does not PERCEIVE you as being high value. Apparently your positive factors need to be glaringly obvious to her (not requiring discerning observation abilities) -- such as being famous, or conspicuously wealthy, or having a crowd of beautiful women surrounding you & clamoring for your attention.
Al 2015-09-22 05:17:30
@ lazy guy
Having a lot of value to offer doesn’t affect the ‘negotiation’ if she does not PERCEIVE you as being high value.All true. But it is interesting how often, despite her stated aims, you can still sneak beneath the "list" radar by being high value in bed! It is nice to observe the confusion this creates in her.
It seems to be such a foolish reason for stopping so much potential happiness from happening.Yep. Denial of basic pleasures and compatibility because somehow, we ought to pay for it, even though she is enjoying it while it is there. Still, leaves me with more free time to play trains. 😀
Robert 2015-09-22 06:38:15
BD, I'm curious, what % of over 33 Chemistry hunting is due to social programming vs biological programming? Over 33 women abroad can sometimes be less uptight. Also, I've had quite a few over 33 women quickly jump my bones and I'm over 40 with a good job. I think you are correct about over 33 year old women in general, but could I in some way be short circuiting their ASD? Or perhaps I just hit the chemistry checklist for a lot of older women because I come off as a handsome, sexual yet very nice guy? Thanks
MARK 2015-09-22 13:32:15
I have to say you are spot on with your analysis. I have been doing the online dating thing for 2 years now. Had a ton of first dates and a few seconds. Here is what I have observed. The women who in their 30's and 40's for the most part have kids and are looking for a meal ticket and someone to support them so they no longer have to work. Almost all the first dates from online sources no matter how hard I try are always like a job interview. The ones that are late 40's and early 50's are looking for Christian Bale types who will wine and dine them. Take them on vacations and be available 24/7. They all say they are looking for certain things but are only interested in money and Hollywood looks. I met one on Tinder who was clearly not into me. However, we still had a nice dinner and are still friendly. She gave me the best advice regarding dating (other than your blog). She told me NEVER take an online first date to dinner. Most of the women on E-Harmony, Match, Jdate., etc. are looking for a free expensive meal. She told me to only meet them for coffee on a first date. That way I don’t blow $ 100 bucks or more on dinner and drinks. If things work out, great, if not, I am only out $ 5. I am off all online dating sites. They are all a waste of money and time. I just asked the hot MILF who cuts my sons hair out and we are going out tonight. I am going to bang her through the headboard. Now the big question, besides the hair stylist I am going to have sex with tonight, where do I find women other than online? Help a brother out.
K 2015-09-22 14:13:16
Maybe you´re trying to generalise something that is a matter of individual experience..? I´m 29-year-old woman from Europe. My approach to sex hasn´t changed much over the years: I sleep with men I am attracted to. Sadly, while I have always wanted to have a lot of sex, in the past I rarely met a man to whom I would feel strongly attracted - or attracted at all. And I mean carnal attraction, disregarding any relationship prerequisities (I was too stupid for a long time to realise there were any, except for this physical craving 🙂 ). I don´t know where you meet all the horny 18-year-olds who quickly move from one guy to another. I remember some of my schoolmates being more open to sex and others less, however, I have yet to meet a nymphomaniac/promiscuous girl like the ones BD describes. Not saying they aren´t there, I just don´t know them. With age, I think, I start to find a broader variety of men attractive. It´s still nowhere close to the experience of men with strong sex drives who, given the chance, would happily screw 70-80% of the female population. (Don´t know whether that´s a blessing, or a curse. A double-edged sword, likely.) I was ascribing it to the natural (?), subconscious process of "lowering standards", but here I read I should actually have it the other way round! Higher expectations, a longer checklist 🙂 🙂 Wow.
Blackdragon 2015-09-22 15:34:49
Recently, I went on a date with a 24 years old girl I met online that told me and I quote that she wants to be stimulated by a man on a celestral level.Is she a stripper? I'm being serious. She sounds like one of these airy-fairy new-agey types (very common to strippers and artists). And no, has nothing to do with chemistry. She's just weird.
I’m seriously thinking of fucking off post 33 women and experiment with just chicks in their 20’s and see what happens.Your lay ratios will skyrocket and you'll punch yourself for not doing this two years ago. (Ask me how I know.)
I’m curious, what % of over 33 Chemistry hunting is due to social programming vs biological programming? Over 33 women abroad can sometimes be less uptight.I don't have the answer to that. But yes, cultural differences to make a big difference. Guys in southern Europe are going to have less of a problem with over-33s than guys in Toronto, for example.
Also, I’ve had quite a few over 33 women quickly jump my bones and I’m over 40 with a good job.1. What country do you live in? 2. How much face-time in hours did you spend with each woman prior to sex? 3. How much money, grand total, did you spend with each woman? Every once and a while I'll get older guys who say, "I fuck over-33 women fast all the time!!" but when I press for specifics, and they really think back, they realize they're spending 8, 10, 12 hours of grand-total face time pre-sex. (As opposed to my 3-4 hours of face time with under 33s.) You CAN fuck over-33s if you don't mind putting in the time (and a lot of men our age don't mind). And again, cultural differences do matter. You could live in an easier area.
Now the big question, besides the hair stylist I am going to have sex with tonight, where do I find women other than online? Help a brother out.OKCupid (but make sure you do the paid version), and POF in some areas, and SDD sites if you want to go that route. And yes, avoid sites like E-Harmony...that's provider hunter central. Though JDate shouldn't be a huge problem; Jewish women are shockingly sex-positive.
Blackdragon 2015-09-22 15:39:57
Maybe you´re trying to generalise something that is a matter of individual experience..?No, I've spoken with literally hundreds of men who experienced the exact same thing. Are you not seeing all the comments above from the guys who are experiencing exactly what I'm talking about?
My approach to sex hasn´t changed much over the years: I sleep with men I am attracted to.Because you're 29, which is under age 33. Thank you for proving my point.
I don´t know where you meet all the horny 18-year-olds who quickly move from one guy to another.Online. Though lately I've cut it off at age 23.
I have yet to meet a nymphomaniac/promiscuous girl like the ones BD describes.Nice. All the younger women I have sex with are nymphomaniacs or promiscuous? Um, no. They like sex and tend to be attracted to older men (Type 2 VYW). Only about 20% I would put in the promiscuous category. As I've demonstrated before (specifically in the comments on this post), older women always think younger women are stupid. Nice attitude.
Minister 2015-09-22 16:02:25
"Is she a stripper? I’m being serious. She sounds like one of these airy-fairy new-agey types (very common to strippers and artists)." No, she is not a stripper. Maybe I didn't translate it accurately. I mean she wants to be mentally aroused by a man. "And no, has nothing to do with chemistry. She’s just weird." Tell me about it. Most girls I meet online are just weird. As soon as I hit 4 more lays, I am done with this.
rgz 2015-09-22 16:21:43
OKCupid (but make sure you do the paid version)Why is the paid version better?
Blackdragon 2015-09-22 16:54:16
The non-paid version of OKCupid hides all the hot girls. (Yes, it's bullshit.) When you pay, it opens up a way to search based on attractiveness (a 1-5 star rating), and when you search on 3 or 4 stars and above, suddenly there's all these hot chicks you weren't seeing in all of your prior searches with the same criteria. It transforms OKCupid into a completely different site. I pay every time I use it now. I now consider OKCupid a paid site, like Match.com.
lazy guy 2015-09-22 17:34:40
BD, your info about the paid version of OKC is interesting. Okay so it lets a man see the most attractive women (who were hidden from him before) -- Does paying also change how the man's 'profile' is viewed by the women on OKC? Do the best looking women get shown only the guys who are paying for OKC? Is there a parallel policy at POF? Thanks for the info!
Robert 2015-09-22 17:36:00
Also, I’ve had quite a few over 33 women quickly jump my bones and I’m over 40 with a good job.1. What country do you live in? 2. How much face-time in hours did you spend with each woman prior to sex? 3. How much money, grand total, did you spend with each woman? Every once and a while I’ll get older guys who say, “I fuck over-33 women fast all the time!!” but when I press for specifics, and they really think back, they realize they’re spending 8, 10, 12 hours of grand-total face time pre-sex. (As opposed to my 3-4 hours of face time with under 33s.) You CAN fuck over-33s if you don’t mind putting in the time (and a lot of men our age don’t mind). And again, cultural differences do matter. You could live in an easier area. 1. I live in the U.S., a beach town in California. 4 out of 12 of my over 33s in the last year have been foreign. I've been on about 20 1st dates with over 33s in the last year. 2./ 3. I spent very little money on the over 33s who I slept with (pre sex). I probably put in an average of 5 hours on each pre-sex. I will admit though that I had 3 over 33s who gamed me and I wasted time and a couple of expensive dates on them. I ended up only having sex with one of these gamers. Again, I think I am a kind of cougar bait. So perhaps, I am a unique situation.
rgz 2015-09-22 18:49:33
When you pay, it opens up a way to search based on attractiveness (a 1-5 star rating)Do you mean the paid accounts allow you filter out less attractive women leaving the more attractive ones? Or does the paid version literally allow you view more attractive women that the free users can't access?
Al 2015-09-22 20:31:27
where do I find women other than online? Help a brother out.You may laugh, but the supermarket / other shopping centres are good places. Why? Well, depending on the time of day, you get all sorts in there. You can see what they look like. You can see how they dress. You can see what they put in the trolley which can indicates lifestyle and diet etc. You can also tell if they are living alone, have kids or not etc. There are a hundred and one easy opening lines you can use. And that is just the customers. People work in there too and that gives you a good idea who you are dealing with depending on the class of outlet you are in. These people will also probably be fairly local. You do of course have to learn how to check all these things out without looking like a no-hoper stalker but I've had good results. Lunch time and after work are good times as a lot of people at this time are nipping out of the office. Shows that they at least have a job. Just a thought. 🙂
Sasa 2015-09-23 00:34:44
Well Bd, what we women over 33, who love sex, are going to do once you tell your audience to turn into the youngers?Give us a compliment..It is unfair. Mediterenean region. i think women over 33, have awareness of their desires, fantasies, know what their body wants, what are their strong points and they have developed their sex technics.Although youngers might be easier to get in bed( because they still searching themselves), i thing they tent to complicate things. At least my surroundings , 33+ Milfs, craving for sex with an attractive guy, without wanting smt more or extra obligations..Just good quality sex.Also the crisis here is turning people into searching more simple things to be happy. Money of course is a target, but not as much as in the wealthier countries.Chemistry is the basic ingredent to start a relationship, it is not a qualification for some good time.
Minister 2015-09-23 01:36:15
No, she is not a stripper. Maybe I didn’t translate it accurately. I mean she wants to be mentally aroused by a manSo, BD, does she still sound like weird to you?
tonystark 2015-09-23 03:18:37
Do you mean the paid accounts allow you filter out less attractive women leaving the more attractive ones? Or does the paid version literally allow you view more attractive women that the free users can’t access?It just lets you filter them out. You aren't likely to see them otherwise. They changed the rating system, so if you were a 3 or 4, before - you're likely a 1 or 2 now. And the algorithm takes into account your attractiveness rating, so without the filter you won't see them, unless you scroll ALLL the way down. Free tip: they could also be hidden by distance. Tighten your search radius, and women you haven't seen before may pop up. Then again hiding the attractive women from free users and making you pay, seems like the shady shit that Sam Yagan and co. would do. Every change they seem to make is for the worse.
d. beguiled 2015-09-23 14:51:10
"Well Bd, what we women over 33, who love sex, are going to do once you tell your audience to turn into the youngers?Give us a compliment..It is unfair. Mediterenean region." BD, for the love of God, please have the decency to remove this post from your otherwise fine blog. Evidently you have a large following among Mediterranean men, and these are men who not only read your blog, but have no choice but to do exactly as you tell them to do. This is patently unfair to real women who are experienced and know what they want, as opposed the painted youngsters you seem to favor. Plus the lack of compliments for older woman in this single post violates the standards of gentlemanly behavior. It is a travesty of justice. Man up and press delete in the name of all that is holy. Thnx Bye.
donniedemarco 2015-09-23 17:00:45
"... not ALL women over 33 are like that!". Ladies, no one is generalizing anything. It's just statistics/odds. Yes of course there are exceptions (and I'm sure many of you qualify), but we're not going build our entire dating strategy around the tiny percentage of women who contradict the odds. Dating is a numbers game. I personally date women of all ages, but my statistics agree with BD's. The vast majority of my dates with older women feel like a goddamn job interview. I'm sorry, but I don't date in order to prove myself as a valid candidate for Wedding Cake Ornament Status. I date to meet new and interesting people that I can form a long-term bond with. Sadly, the vast majority (not ALL, but MOST) of those dates come from younger women*. It's a statistical fact in my life. * Although in my case, the cutoff age seems to be around 25, sadly.
Doubter 2015-09-23 20:36:35
I gotta disagree with you on this BD. I think that chemistry as proffered by the 33+ crowd is the exact same thing as attraction. Because these women are so far into their own heads, they seek to describe the feeling of being swept off their feet with this chemistry word. In actuality, if a guy shows up with the masculinity, dominance and assertiveness that all women yearn for, they will call it chemistry. But it's attraction. Part of the problem for these women is their own dominance. It's so high that a man has to be even more dominant to trip their attraction switch. But when one does, they are hooked. This is another example of not listening to what women say......
POB 2015-09-24 09:34:22
I must say I love women in their mid 30s early 40s!!! Even so, for the reasons stated above by BD and the other guys, I do not cold approach them anymore. The only exception is when I'm running some experiments and do not care about results or face time to lay ratio. Older women can be fun, interesting, hot as hell (sometimes more than their younger counterparts) and really fun to hang with, but the amount of bullshit they'll throw at you does not pay off the investment. In one simple word: boring. Especially when you have some level of game and knows she's dying to have sex with you. My gosh, it's fucking annoying when you realize she's just testing the shit out of you to see if you're "BF material" AND at the same time is showing signs that her attraction for you is off the charts. My last cold approach was a 43 yo brunette who I banged on the first date but was an extreme exception to the rule (recently divorced, horny as hell). All the other ones from the past year were busts who I got fed up with and did not want to invest anymore. BD is 100% correct when he says <33s will sleep with you much faster, be way more fun and don't give you a lot of drama (at least in the beginning).
Blackdragon 2015-09-24 09:55:05
D. Beguiled - Best comment ever.
Now the big question, besides the hair stylist I am going to have sex with tonight, where do I find women other than online? Help a brother out.Sorry...didn't read the other than online part. One word: Malls.
Well Bd, what we women over 33, who love sex, are going to do once you tell your audience to turn into the youngers?Give us a compliment..It is unfair.Go back up to my post and re-read the part about how I still date over-33 women and think they're great. I just don't cold approach them any more. As I said to that other over-33 complainer above, when over-33 women start having sex with new men quickly, we Alphas will start cold approaching them again. It's up to you, ladies.
Mediterenean region.As I said, over-33s in southern Europe are more sex-positive and less uptight about first-time sex.
So, BD, does she still sound like weird to you?No, she just sounds like she has lots of ASD. Next!
Does paying also change how the man’s ‘profile’ is viewed by the women on OKC?I don't think so.
Do the best looking women get shown only the guys who are paying for OKC?Yes. These women are literally blocked from you until you pay. Test it yourself. Go crazy with the best searches you can come up with, and make a mental note of the hottest women you see. Then pay OKC, and do a new search based on attractiveness, and you'll suddenly see a slew of hot chicks in the exact same locations as your prior searches that you didn't see before. OKC becomes an entirely different site.
Is there a parallel policy at POF?No. The problem there is the insane, politically correct age restrictions they use.
I think that chemistry as proffered by the 33+ crowd is the exact same thing as attraction. Because these women are so far into their own heads, they seek to describe the feeling of being swept off their feet with this chemistry word.That's why it's not the same as attraction. Women under 33 (by and large) don't have these "swept off their feet" fantasies with nearly as many specifics as over-33s. You said it yourself. The 37 year-old needs to be swept off her feet in order to have sex with you. The 26 year-old doesn't. I rest my case.
Daniel Pierce 2015-09-24 12:11:15
I wouldn't admit to ANYONE you voted for George W. Bush. Not your wife, girlfriend, date, boss, client, respectable company, intelligent company, children, good friends, mild acquaintances, coworkers ... anyone who's opinion you value, etc.. It's one thing to be a conservative. It's another to have voted for George W. Bush. We all make mistakes but I wouldn't admit to it.
Blackdragon 2015-09-24 14:05:05
I wouldn’t admit to ANYONE you voted for George W. Bush.I didn't vote for him. I'm for small government, so I don't get to vote for anybody.
AneroidOcean 2015-09-24 15:09:03
Great post, BD. I don't like your words for it, as I don't believe older women are looking for "chemistry" and instead I think they are looking for "compatibility" which are not one and the same. What you call attraction I would consider "sexual attraction" and this is a main component of chemistry. Chemistry includes sexual attraction AND the other components that make up really enjoying your time around the other person. Chemistry is getting along and having a great time AND being sexually attracted to each other. Compatibility is usually an older woman's checklist of ridiculous constraints that keep them from finding a mate or even finding good sex. It's mostly their self-delusions or the requirements they could've READILY found men for when they were less bitter, more fertile, and thus vastly more sexually attractive to men. Unfortunately, when those women have hit or are rapidly approaching the wall also coincides with when they start looking in earnest for men that hit those requirements as opposed to just being sexually attracted to them. By then the men who hit those requirements have long since been snatched up by younger women being smarter about their options with a long-term view in mind, or simply by younger women in general. Karen, you're a complete narcissist if you can't detach your personal situation with that of "most women." A generalization is just that. It's a statement that is GENERALLY true. It doesn't mean it covers every individual in a group, just most of them. Your response is merely because you feel that you've been mischaracterized when in reality he was never characterizing you, just a group you belong to. It's not all about you or your misplaced emotional hurt.
Blackdragon 2015-09-24 19:39:02
I don’t like your words for it, as I don’t believe older women are looking for “chemistry” and instead I think they are looking for “compatibility” which are not one and the same.As was already said above, you're getting hung up on the specific wording rather than the overall concept I'm describing. You and I pretty much agree. If you don't like the word "chemistry" (which is not my word, it's their word; I've never used that word in my life, because I think it's stupid), then feel free to use a different word for it. The concept is true regardless. (And please avoid ad hominem attacks here, regardless of how irrational certain commenters may sound.)
K 2015-09-24 23:18:16
As I’ve demonstrated before (specifically in the comments on this post), older women always think younger women are stupid. Nice attitude.Where did I say that the nymphomaniac/promiscuous women are stupid? I used the words as a shortcut for "women who have sex with many different men within a short period of time" or "girls who quickly move from one man to another". I don´t think that´s stupid of them. They may have a lot of fun doing so. Plus as I said, I trust you that these women exist. I only wasn´t sure about the percentage as I don´t happen to know any one myself. 20% seems like a reasonable estimate. I´m sure I´ll never meet a much larger pecentage of the female population in my country during my whole life. The only person I called stupid was my younger self, for a particular reason of not realising that a sexual attraction is not the only prerequisite of a happy relationship. You wouldn´t deny me the right to call myself stupid, would you?
Because you’re 29, which is under age 33. Thank you for proving my point.My point was that as I grow older, the pool of men I find attractive is extending from "extremely limited" to just "limited" (hurray!). I don´t see how it proves your point. For many men on this blog, I´m at the peak of the provider-hunting age and even you put me in the category of "older women" in the above quote. So you´re saying that when I turn 33, someone takes out a magic wand and turns me into an unapproachable witch? To be fair, I think I get your general point and agree that the level of ASD will generally be increasing in women with age, so your advice to men is practical, especially if they do put in the numbers. As I am self-oriented, my point was that they have a greater chance with an older me than they would have had with a younger me.
Blackdragon 2015-09-24 23:30:16
Where did I say that the nymphomaniac/promiscuous women are stupid?Walk up to a woman you know and call her a nymphomaniac or promiscuous and see how she reacts. You're using it as slander against younger women, and you know it. Stop being silly.
So you´re saying that when I turn 33, someone takes out a magic wand and turns me into an unapproachable witch?Not exactly, but close. I'm saying, and I'm right, that with every year you get closer to age 33, you'll have more ASD and start getting more picky about when you have sex for the first time with a guy. You'll be worse at 30 than you are now at 29, and worse at 31 than at 30. By age 33, you'll likely be there, unless you're an outlier, then it might take you until 34 or 35. By that age, you will NOT be having sex with any new guys on the second date, and probably not the third either (unless they're super young, hot guys with no money, or if you're traveling). I've actually watched women go through this. Women I met at 27 or 29 who were sexual and fun, then get more and more prude as they approached 33. Now at 34 or 35, they're prude as fuck (with new men, not with existing boyfriends who follow their Disney agenda). When guys try to fuck them, they make these guys wait a long time, then demand monogamy or tell the men to fuck off...things they never did at age 27 with anyone. Witches? No. Just prude and frustrated. It's a very sad thing to watch. It's common and very predictable.
Doubter 2015-09-25 12:17:18
I don't know boys......I bang 33+ women all the time.....And about the same number of girls under that age. I run the same game on both. I will admit that sometimes the second date is required to bang the older woman, where first date is usually enough for a girl going out with an older guy (they know the deal). To those guys who can't seem to get the older woman lay, you need to actively disqualify yourself from the provider role. Women want sex.......they really do......so you are the emotionally unavailable playboy that can show them a great time. If you show a hint of providerdom, you might be in the quicksand and then all bets are off. If they are attracted and they feel safe......it's a done deal. In fact, teasing a woman that's a bit older is even more effective in seduction. Try it.....it works.
donniedemarco 2015-09-25 13:11:09
@Doubter No one is saying that it's impossible to sleep with women over 33, and I'm guessing most of us still do (the oldest women I'm dating are 47 and 33; the youngest are 18 and 19). We're just talking dynamics here. You even said it yourself:
you need to actively disqualify yourself from the provider roleThat's precisely the point that's being made... Older women statistically require more effort and care to establish this frame than younger women. For many of us, this level of effort IS NOT WORTH THE EVENTUAL SEX. If anything, this post offers more value to women than men. For men, this article is effectively a list of "Things to be Aware of when Dating Older Women". But for women, it's like a step-by-step manual on "How to Stop Killing Passion and Driving Men Away". It honestly wouldn't surprise me if BD has a regular following of women who actively improve their dating lives by reading his content and taking it all in. It's that good.
K 2015-09-25 14:34:39
You’re using it as slander against younger women, and you know it. Stop being silly.BD, please. If I were this judgmental, I would have stopped reading your blog a long time ago. People have various reasons for having sex, one of the major ones being physical enjoyment. I am not here to criticise anyone’s reasons, whether they are a 43-year old man or an 18-year-old woman. I like your blog, BD, otherwise I wouldn’t take the time to comment. Now it seems to me, though, that apart from attributing me alien motivations, you might be blaming women for pursuing their agenda instead of going along with yours (“it’s sad to watch”).
Witches? No. Just prude and frustrated. It’s a very sad thing to watch. It’s common and very predictable.Am I wrong? Why just not say to each their own? You and your gang can be happy with, usually young, girls who do not expect monogamy and children of you. It makes you and the girls happy - awesome! Happy people are good people. Plenty of other men want to have a unique close relationship with one woman and often also children with that one woman (ask me how I know). Yes, you say it’s not gonna work out for them. Well, likely it won’t. I know couples for whom it still works (in as well as out of bed) 15-30 years later, but that’s anecdotal evidence. I agree these couples are a minority. Women who want to have a unique close relationship with one man and a family with him (sooner or later) are not going to sleep with you on the first or any other date, regardless of age, unless you openly lie to them, because what makes you happy and what makes them happy is not compatible. Those women aren’ t a problem, just as you aren’t. Why would you look down your nose on people who want different things than you do?
Blackdragon 2015-09-25 15:39:58
I was going to comment but donniedemarco said everything for me. I have sex with women over 33 all the time too. The problem is that they take more time (good luck consistently having sex with over-33 women within 3-4 hours of face time like I can with women under 33 easily and repeatedly) and require more effort (I can show all the provider I want with 27 year-old women, but if I'm Alpha enough I still get laid within 3-4 hours; no need to hide anything like you must with over-33s). Now, K:
Now it seems to me, though, that apart from attributing me alien motivations, you might be blaming women for pursuing their agenda instead of going along with yours (“it’s sad to watch”).and
Why just not say to each their own?and
Why would you look down your nose on people who want different things than you do?Then answer to all three of his questions is: because these over-33 women are not happy following this model. Western women in their 30s are, without a doubt, the most stressed out group of people I've ever observed. Men are happier. Women in their 20s and 40s are happier. Women in their 30s, by and large (and yes there are always exceptions and yes I'm generalizing) are stressed out and pissed off. They also have the most trouble with and the most negative view of dating. That's why I don't recommend what they're doing to other women, and why it's sad to watch.
Plenty of other men want to have a unique close relationship with one woman and often also children with that one womanI want that too. Just without the monogamy. And usually I have that.
Women who want to have a unique close relationship with one man and a family with him (sooner or later) are not going to sleep with you on the first or any other dateCompletely wrong. Women who want a a unique close relationship with one man and a family have sex with me all the time, and usually within 3-4 hours of face time. Once again, you incorrectly assume that all the women I have sex with are slutty, promiscuous, nymphos. Think that all you like, but you couldn't be more wrong. And yes, you are insulting these women with your self-righteous assumptions about them.
Michael 2015-09-27 03:11:57
Just out of interest BD, what do think the Dominant/Submissive split is with over 33s? I've found attractive over 33 never-marrieds absolutely impossible to deal with online and in reality too, so I avoid them like the plague. But this maybe has something to do with me presenting myself as not very malleable in both my profile and presentation, which has left me suspecting these women are dominants most of the time, even though they don't look it from photos. The same faces are on POF for months on end looking for "My Mr. Right" or "My knight in shining armour" and I often feel like asking them - do you not think it's you that has the problem? Too many men under their belts plus Mr. Right either doesn't exist, or if he does, he's so amazing he is already married. The only time I've found these women to be amenable is when they are plain/unattractive or have some personality disorder and no eligible men want them. However most attractive divorcees in my experience, especially when they have kids and are over forty, seem to be only interested in attraction (although this could be because they feel they have lesser options).
Blackdragon 2015-09-27 10:41:06
Just out of interest BD, what do think the Dominant/Submissive split is with over 33s?I couldn't give you exact numbers, but if the standard percentage for Dominants is 60% among all ages, it's over 60% with over-33s. The good news is that over time (and it will take a long time) you'll see more and more Independents among over-33 women. Not today though.
But this maybe has something to do with me presenting myself as not very malleable in both my profile and presentation, which has left me suspecting these women are dominants most of the timeYou're correct. Inflexible men don't make good slaves, so most of these women will screen you out. I have the same problem.
The same faces are on POF for months on end looking for “My Mr. Right” or “My knight in shining armour” and I often feel like asking them – do you not think it’s you that has the problem?Yeah, that's logic. Won't work.
K 2015-09-28 05:02:53
Western women in their 30s are, without a doubt, the most stressed out group of people I’ve ever observed. Men are happier. Women in their 20s and 40s are happier. Women in their 30s, by and large (and yes there are always exceptions and yes I’m generalizing) are stressed out and pissed off.Do I understand correctly that you’re saying, statistically speaking, that women (or at least women in their 30s) would be happier if they stopped being picky about who they sleep with and instead had sex with the alfa men on first dates?
Blackdragon 2015-09-28 09:58:49
Do I understand correctly that you’re saying, statistically speaking, that women (or at least women in their 30s) would be happier if they stopped being picky about who they sleep with and instead had sex with the alfa men on first dates?Close but not exactly. Go back up to my post and compare the example of the 26 year old woman with the 37 year old woman and you'll see what I'm talking about. Over-33 women would be happier in general if they were less uptight about having sex relatively quickly with a new man (as in the 2nd or 3rd date without a lot of demands for extra time or money spent on those dates). Yes. They would be less stressed about dating, less stressed about men, be able to enter into enjoyable relationships more often instead of being angry and single, and have less problems in those relationships.
Ashley 2015-09-28 16:08:19
I am slightly younger than 33, but I started noticing the difference between attraction and chemistry in my younger 20s. I would meet guys I was physically attracted to, but when I spent time with him, I didn't get butterflies. At most, I wanted to parade him around to friends, but then I went home and thought about someone else. Other guys are guys were more average looking , or maybe kinda nerdy and awkward, but when spending time with them, I felt like I was on top of the world. When I talk about chemistry, I refer to the natural spark between two people due to their compatible personalities. If that isn't there, I will get bored with even the hottest guy. When it comes to being attracted to men, for me a guy has to have an attractive face. The body isn't quite as important, but I tend not to be attracted to extremes. He can change is his weight, his clothes, his hair, his posture, but it's his face that will have me sold. I look for symmetry, clear, healthy skin, nice complexion, and at least one striking feature (bright blue eyes, eyebrows, smile).
tonystark 2015-09-28 16:31:35
So I ran a little experiment this weekend - a 24 year old scientist, a 27 year old dancer, and a 33 year old baker. Can you guess which really wanted to sleep with me but for whatever reason "couldn't" on the first date? Can you guess which did sleep with me? Here's a hint - not the 33 year old.
Lovergirl 2015-09-29 08:56:49
Oh lord.... the reason older women are more selective is because they are wiser after having gone through more men treating them poorly. In order to get men to treat you better you tend to have to treat THEM worse. Being nice to men and giving and loving and having sex easily tends to make men treat you like shit. Experience teaches us all.
donniedemarco 2015-09-29 12:56:02
Do I understand correctly that you’re saying, statistically speaking, that women (or at least women in their 30s) would be happier if they stopped being picky about who they sleep with and instead had sex with the alfa men on first dates?No. Both older women *and the men that date them* would be happier if you stopped sucking all the life and passion out of the interactions. I think you ladies are forgetting something: When we men ask you out, we are genuinely excited to date you! We see fire and passion in you and we want to immerse ourselves in it. Then the date starts and all the Rules and Regulations crap begins, and all the good feelies and butterflies we were feeling for you fly out the damn window. Yawn. Next.
Oh lord…. the reason older women are more selective is because they are wiser after having gone through more men treating them poorly.Who said you shouldn't be selective? What we're saying here is that most older women have flawed selection filters that don't work.
In order to get men to treat you better you tend to have to treat THEM worse. Being nice to men and giving and loving and having sex easily tends to make men treat you like shit. Experience teaches us all.This is precisely my point. You state this as if it's some general rule that can be applied to all men, but this shit only works on men with low confidence. A man with high confidence will just get disappointed in you, and then move on to another girl who can offer more passion in his life. Do you see what's happening? You think you've set up a filter to turn away the assholes and attract the quality guys, but what you've really done is set up a filter to turn away the quality guys, and attract the betas. Is that what you really want? Whenever I hear an older woman complain that there are no more quality guys, I tell them "the quality guys are out there, but you're screening them all out".
Duke 2015-09-29 13:26:17
@Donniedemarco, as BD, put in a post a few months ago: Women that age likely want the quality man and the beta put together in to one man, that's were the frustrations on both sides lie as this is pure fantasy.
Ashley 2015-09-29 16:49:17
Donniedemarco, I think where these older women screw up is they implement rules and regulations instead of boundaries. Everyone has the right to set boundaries for themselves, starting from the first date all the way up through marriage. Actually, it's pretty much required for happiness and sanity. Otherwise, you will find yourself screwed, and not in the good way. Where women are going wrong is that they don't understand how to effectively assert their boundaries without making their men feel as if they are in a prison. And when they are unhappy about something, they vocalize it ineffectively by picking fights, aggressively making demands, giving ultimatums - all words, instead of taking the appropriate action which men would respond to. "what you’ve really done is set up a filter to turn away the quality guys, and attract the betas" There are some traits in betas that are good, and these are traits that women want. Duke is on the right track with his comment.
Blackdragon 2015-09-29 16:57:10
In order to get men to treat you better you tend to have to treat THEM worse. Being nice to men and giving and loving and having sex easily tends to make men treat you like shit.I hope you men are paying attention...
Do you see what’s happening? You think you’ve set up a filter to turn away the assholes and attract the quality guys, but what you’ve really done is set up a filter to turn away the quality guys, and attract the betas. Is that what you really want?Actually, the problem is yes, that is what they usually want. Of course they'll utterly hate it once they have it, but that's not what they're thinking about when they're on a first or second date. Women aren't very good at thinking ahead. (And to be fair, many men aren't either.)
donniedemarco 2015-10-01 15:22:08
@Duke, Ashley, and BD Agreed, you all stated it better than I. You've also led me to another potential realization. For most of my dating life (especially when I was in my 20s), I'd always found seduction with married women/women with boyfriends to be MUCH easier than with single women. To the point where I'd estimate that a full 50-75% of women who cold approached me were married. As a young silly boy who treated long-term monogamy as the holy grail, this trend caused me an endless amount of frustration. I mean it was great to have sex with MILFs, but it was also frustrating that I couldn't find anything "real" or go on "normal" dates. It always felt like there must be something wrong with me. But BD's last comment has me reconsidering all of this. Perhaps the problem for me then was that I was not putting out enough "beta vibes" to get what I wanted back then (a girlfriend). Or at a higher level, I was failing to recognize how a woman's current place in life affects her immediate goals and pursuits. I'm tempted to put together an experiment to measure female responsiveness to beta vs alpha behaviors, and see if there is any correlation to relationship status. It wouldn't surprise me if single women have a tendency to seek beta behaviors, while married women (who have already crossed the boredom threshold) tend to seek alpha behaviors. Hmm...
Shadix 2015-10-02 19:30:46
The attraction vs chemistry thing explains a lot of the changes in dating behavior as women get older. However, the one part that I would challenge is the idea that the shift occurs at 33. From my observations, it seems to occur earlier, around age 24. With girls in their teens and early 20s, it is all about attraction. They are not thinking about whether or not you will make a good long term partner. That's why this is the age where you most commonly find girls dating outside of their race, ethnicity, religious group, etc. But then when you look at girls 24+, they won't date just any cute guy. Now suddenly they have all these criteria they need him to meet. This is why you often see the feminazis promoting the idea that women under 25 are "not yet fully developed" and that it is wrong for older men to get involved with them. They realize that these younger women offer men the opportunity to casually date without being pressured into commitment like they would be if they dated women closer to their age. They try to frame it as an issue of maturity, like they are vulnerable to an older man's charm or something. But in reality, it is just that they aren't in the marriage-seeking phase yet and thus are less picky about who they will date.
Julie 2015-10-15 14:20:32
Have respect for yourself and give respect to others. Men on here complaining about women using them and now bitter so proudly proclaiming nah nah na boo boo at 33+ women, find some peace within and you won't be so angry. Also you won't be as stupid to make more mistakes. Once you learn to respect yourself more you won't have to listen to this black dragon blog. You'll exude confidence and respect and women will love you for it.
Blackdragon 2015-10-15 14:33:22
Have respect for yourself and give respect to others.I do and do. Saying over-33 women are more picky and make men wait longer for first-time sex isn't angry or disrespectful. It's stating a fact. I'm the opposite of angry; I'm one of the happiest men I know.
Julie 2015-10-15 17:29:41
Yes, I see that. Got it all under control.
tonystark 2015-10-20 03:50:45
Once you learn to respect yourself more you won’t have to listen to this black dragon blog. You’ll exude confidence and respect and women will love you for it.Just be yourself.(TM)
Me 2016-01-14 10:23:34
I know this is old but I had to comment when a friend sent me this link. I agree with the above comment that after age 24, women are more concerned with looking for a potential partner. This is a biological drive and is normal. This drive will worsen as the woman ages and reaches the end of her fertility. She is unconsciously looking for a complimentary genetic match to her genetic makeup, and that is what results in attraction. This woman is also looking for a man that will be able to provide for said offspring which may offset any chemical attraction she may feel or may contribute and deepen the attraction. It's very simple. As women age and have children, the drive to find a partner may actually LESSEN. All women are different but I wouldn't count out women over 33 especially if they are in a current relationship or have already had children. I would offer myself as an example but I know many women like me.... I am older then 40, I have had children, I have plenty of money and don't need yours, my children have a father and I work a lot at a great job. When I look for a man, I don't care about any of the things that were discussed in the article. You can eat what you want, have sex with who you want, work or not work and especially vote for who you want (because you won't be around when the next election rolls around)?. For women like us, it's completely about chemical attraction(and performance or lack there of) and that's it. Age is just a number my friend and we are all unique?