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10 Steps To Get Started With Your First Nonmonogamous Relationship – For Beginners
Today I’m going to give you step-by-step instructions on how to start your own first nonmonogamous relationship. If you’re a complete beginner or a moderate beginner, this post is for you. It’s for guys who have never done this before but would like to try it, or perhaps guys who have flirted with the idea and done some things like this but still consider themselves beginners.
-By Caleb Jones
1. Focus on your goal, which should be to simultaneously date two women. Just two.
Men often read blogs like this and hear about all these crazy guys like me who are dating four, five, or even more women at a time. I first started getting attention years ago from forum posts I made called “BD’s State of the Union,” where I described how I was dating, in actual ongoing relationships, 12-14 women over period of a year or less.
These things are entertaining and often educational, but a lot of guys read stuff like this and think, "Wow. I could never do that," or “12 women? Whoa, that’s way too much work. I’ll just get a girlfriend.” Therefore, step one is to get all those big, crazy numbers out of your head. Stop thinking about 12 or even four women, and focus on two. Your goal is to get one MLTR and one FB. Two women. That’s it.
I don’t date 14 women these days; that was during my crazy phase from several years ago. It’s true that today I am often dating around four women at a time, but I have years of experience doing this, plus I’m a horny horndog and have higher sex drive than most men reading these words. Two women are plenty for most men. Two women are also manageable for most guys in terms of sex drive and typical weekly schedule.
So focus on two women for the moment. If later you really want to increase it to beyond two, you can always do that down the road.
2. Make sure you fully understand the difference between FB, MLTR, and OLTR. These are three completely different things, and managed differently.
FB, MLTR, and OLTR are all nonmonogamous relationships, but that’s where their similarity ends. I have done my level best to explain the difference on this blog and in my books, but many guys still have a difficult time separating/understanding these three types of relationships.
Do some reading in the archive of this blog regarding this topic, starting with this post. Buy one or two of my books if necessary.
Here’s a quick summary of the three types:
FB is a friend with benefits or fuck buddy. You have sex with her, you can watch TV with her at her place or your place, but that’s it. There’s no going out on dates or spending the night or any of that stuff. She’s your friend whom you fuck. That’s all.
MLTR is a girl you’re going out on dates with, having sex with, and actually do have feelings for her beyond a friend. Dates and spending the night are fine as long as you don’t act too boyfriendish. However, you are allowed to date other women (other MLTRs) and she’s allowed to date other guys if she wants. There are no “rules” about this for either one of you.
OLTR is your “one girl” to whom you're pair bonded with. She’s either a girlfriend or a wife (or the equivalent). However, you’re allowed to have sex with other women on the side within whatever ground rules you and she have set up, provided these side-girls are only FBs or one night stands. MLTRs on the side are not allowed. In other words, MLTR is polyamory (not pair-bonded, no rules, and as serious or non-serious as you like), an OLTR is an open relationship (pair-bonded, several rules, and very serious).
3. Forget about OLTR for the moment. Your goal is one MLTR and one FB. OLTR comes later.
All this talk about OLTR and open marriages, while an important topic, often gets guys pointed in the wrong direction. No woman is allowed to be your OLTR until you’ve been dating her as an MLTR for at least six months with zero problems. 12 months is even better. (I personally have a 12 month-with-no-problems rule before I upgrade a woman to an "official" OLTR). So stop worrying about an OLTR for the moment. If that’s really something you want, you can always get that later when you're more skilled with FBs and MLTRs. Remember, your goal right now is one MLTR and one FB. No OLTRs.
4. Develop your dating/seduction game.
Before getting your two women, you need to go out and pickup / date some to bring them into the fold. This means you need to get decent with dating and/or seduction. This is a required skill for any man who doesn’t like monogamy, and there is no way around this.
If you’re a Thrill of the Hunt man, this will be easier for you because you’ll probably like pickup. I’m a Pleasure of Sex man myself, so I consider the time and effort spent meeting women and doing out on first/second dates to be a necessary evil. This is why I focus on being as time and money efficient with this process as possible. But the point is I got good at it, I do it, and I don’t slack off on it. If you're an absolute beginner in terms of meeting women and getting laid, and have no idea where to start, read this post and follow its instructions. Set a goal to get to at least the intermediate level when it comes to meeting and having sex with new women. I can’t state this enough: This is a mandatory skill with which you must learn and stay proficient, regardless of how busy you are or little you are excited about the process.
5. Buy my open relationships ebook if you haven’t already and follow its step-by-step instructions.
Of course I’m biased here, but I’m seriously telling you that if this really is something you want to learn and get good at in the shortest amount of time, you need to get a copy of my ebook and follow its instructions. It will show you exactly how to take any “normal” woman and bring her into this world. It’s the best book out there on this topic and many guys who have read several books on this subject will tell you the same thing.
The most common problem with nonmono newbies is that they completely screw up the FB/MLTR categories. They treat FBs like MLTRs, or MLTRs like girlfriends. Sometimes they are uncomfortable with the entire concept of an FB and treat every woman they sleep with like a serious MLTR. Every time a man does this, and I mean every time, it eventually results in drama and a lot of hurt feelings. Usually, all of these problems are because they don’t know what category a woman is actually in.
Your job is to categorize a woman into the FB or MLTR slot within two weeks of meeting her in person, at the latest. I know that doesn’t sound very romantic, but like I said, the “romance” comes later. In the initial stages you need to be congruent with women, otherwise you will needlessly hurt them and cause all kinds of drama in your life. Remember this: The inability to categorize women into FB or MLTR categories means you will hurt women, so view this as something you’re doing for her, not for you (though it will help you too).
Also remember that you can downgrade or upgrade a woman at any time between the three levels, based on her behavior. This is perfectly fine and I do this semi-regularly. Just because she’s an FB (or MLTR) right now doesn’t mean she’s locked into that category forever. She can be whatever the hell you want, and you're free to change your mind whenever you like (just like women do with us!).
7. Constantly remind yourself to not get oneitis.
After talking to thousands of newbies on this topic, I can promise you that if you start getting good at this and actually start to have sex with women in multiple relationships, the most likely outcome for you (as a newbie anyway) is to start getting oneitis for prettiest, smartest one. You’re going to want to start violating the rules with her, spending more time with her, and start discarding other women. When she dumps you (and she will), you’ll feel like shit and complain for months (or even years) that none of your other women stack up. NO! You have GOT to be aware of this biological tendency you have as a man. Getting oneitis will fuck all this up faster than anything else wrong you can do. Print out my famous oneitis post right here, slap it up on your wall, and re-read it regularly. Be strong. Be a fucking man. Be tough on yourself. As Jim Rohn said,
If you're easy on yourself, life will be hard on you. If you're hard on yourself, life will be easy on you. Truer words were never spoken. Now look, of course you’re allowed to have strong feelings for a woman, have a favorite woman, or even fall in love with a woman, but getting oneitis will destroy all of this. I've been strongly in love, more than once, but I still didn't get oneitis.
If you can’t control your oneitis tendencies, you’ll never make this work. You might as well go monogamous and suffer all the usual problems those men have.
8. Once you’ve had sex with two new women at least four times each, stop all pickup/dating activities and focus on managing your two new women.
Normally, Lock-In occurs once you’ve had sex with a woman twice, but since you’re new at this, I’m going to double that and say that once you’ve had sex with a new woman four times, she’s “in” and now you can switch out of dating/seduction mode and into relationship management mode.
Once this happens with two women, that’s great! That’s a huge success and you should give yourself a pat on the back. You’ve accomplished something the vast majority of men have never done, and probably never will. You can now stop dating new women and focus your efforts on these two.
9. Pick the woman you like the most and make her an MLTR. Make the other woman an FB.
Any time you date multiple women, you will like some women more than others. This is normal and natural and to be expected. Don’t ever feel like you have to like all your women equally. This will never happen.
Out of your current two, take the one you like the best and make her an MLTR. Feel free to take her out on dates, spend the night with her, cuddle with her after sex, and all that other fun stuff. DO NOT meet any of her family, buy her gifts, go travelling with her, text her every day, or any of that stuff. That’s boyfriend shit. Save that for 6-12 months down the road if you still like her and she's been low-drama the entire time and she's survived The Talk. If you start doing boyfriend stuff too early, you’re going to either A) cause all kinds of drama and damage to the relationship or B) chase her away. Make your second girl an FB. Hang out with her at your place or her place, have sex, talk a little if you like, watch a little TV with her, but that’s it. Don’t take her out. Don’t spend the night. Don’t cuddle after sex. That’s MLTR stuff, and if you do that with her, you’re in for problems.
What if you want both women to be MLTRs? Well, that’s up to you. If you’ve got enough woman experience and feel like you can handle it, then go for it. You can certainly have two MLTRs if you like, even more (though I consider three MLTRs a maximum; at three MLTRs or beyond things gets very complicated, even for guys like me who know what they're doing). The reason I’m recommending one MLTR and one FB is that A) it will be emotionally easier and more clear for most guys to do this when getting started and B) it sets up a foundational open/poly relationship skill you can rely on for the rest of your life.
10. Always follow the open/poly relationship rules with both women, consistently, even if you don’t want to.
I’ve talked about the open/poly relationship rules in detail on this blog, in the forums, and in my books, so I’m not going to go into detail about them here. I’ll list them briefly but you should really get more details on this as you go forward.
1. Only see her once a week. (That’s once a week per woman.)
2. Don’t initiate conversation often. That means texting, email, Facebook, whatever. Once or twice a week is your maximum.
3. Make her cum every time you have sex. Critical!
4. Don’t talk about the relationship, even if she brings it up. The Talk should not happen for at least three months into the relationship, though longer is better.
5. No boyfriend behaviors (until she becomes an OLTR that is, but that’s a long way off).
Failure to follow through on any of the above rules will, guaranteed, result in either her giving you drama or leaving you. Don’t screw these up even if you feel your neediness or beta tendencies wanting to.
That’s it! There’s much more to relationship management of course, including things like hard and soft nexting, the four phases, downgrading and upgrading, The Talk, discretion management, STD prevention, when/if to meet her friends and family, and other issues. Today I gave you the “get started stuff.” Hope this helps.
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Ben 2015-12-21 06:36:08
Great article, thanks BD! I'm a young guy and want to learn from others' mistakes/experience to speed up the learning curve so blogs like this are very valuable. I've been reading How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World (I believe you recommended it earlier) and it seems you're applying some concepts from that book with great success (e.g. making long-term decisions while in NRE=emotional trap). From the manosphere blogs I've read so far only yours seems to be focused on long-term happiness/freedom. A little off-topic: I've read your articles about suits, hair, TRT, Carbnite diet. You also mentioned skincare in one of your articles but only briefly. I'm clueless in this area, could you make a post on skincare, what you do/eat/use for your skin and your results/thoughts on it? Or maybe recommend other articles if you follow their advice? Thanks and greetings from HK! Ben PS: I know you're a fan of Bill Burr, his new show F is for family is full of Alpha 1.0 and general family-drama examples, you might want to check it out.
Blackdragon 2015-12-21 09:39:15
From the manosphere blogs I’ve read so far only yours seems to be focused on long-term happiness/freedom.I think that's right.
You also mentioned skincare in one of your articles but only briefly. I’m clueless in this area, could you make a post on skincare, what you do/eat/use for your skin and your results/thoughts on it?I cover that in great detail in my books, particularly the younger woman one. I may make a post on that someday but don't hold your breath.
I know you’re a fan of Bill Burr, his new show F is for family is full of Alpha 1.0 and general family-drama examples, you might want to check it out.I will. Since it's on Netflix it might actually be good. While Louis CK is the ultimate beta male comedian, Bill Burr is the ultimate Alpha Male 1.0 comedian. Hilarious.
David 2015-12-21 13:22:15
Great post, as usual! Just one quibble. While there are many ways to do polyamory, including your MLTR model, at its purest, it's really more like OLTR + one or more MLTRs, and even more than one OLTR. There are rules, there is love and commitment, people buy houses and raise kids. Often everyone involved become good friends. Drama is minimized through clear communication, and making sure that it really is what works for everyone involved. You actually linked to a great article a while back describing how that worked well for one family. I know it's not what works for you or for the majority of people, but just wanted to distinguish that "polyamory" is different from "dating multiple women" and "open relationship/marriage."
Blackdragon 2015-12-21 14:20:05
Yes, what you're describing is "true" polyamory, a group of men and women all dating each other or all "married" to each other. The problem is: 1. That system absolutely, positively will not work for the vast, vast majority of people in the Western world. Whereas the FB/MLTR/OLTR system I describe will work for any man who gives it a solid effort. 2. As other manosphere bloggers have correctly noted, true poly tends to work best for strong, dominant women and weaker beta males. The system I describe is more Alpha friendly. 3. Having a bunch of MLTRs *is* polyamory, particularly if some of your MLTRs have their own MLTRs. It's not inaccurate to call MLTRs "poly". (Though FBs amd OLTR would not be poly. FBs would be fucking multiple people and OLTR would be an open relationship, not polyamory.)
Minister 2015-12-22 04:36:23
Currently, I have a 5 months OLTR, that I am very happy with, but I am sure she would under no circumstances survive The Talk. Anytime so far I implied non monogamy to her, she turned very negative and thought that I was kidding. I haven't promised her monogamy, either, of course. I don't want to lose her, so I think that the safest option is what I am already doing, which is sleeping with other women on the side, without saying anything. Of course, it becomes tiring hiding the truth. When I want to date another women or stay alone for a while, I have to lie to her that I will hang out with my buddies. I would just avoid the excuses, if she didn't ask me over and over again what I will be doing, when I can't spend the night with her. Not to mention that she wants to know more about my imaginary buddies (I stopped hanging out with them long time ago). What do you think?
POB 2015-12-22 04:38:09
After two whole years living this lifestyle all I can say is this: It's not perfect by any means. But it's way better than monogamous relationships and more conductive to long-term happiness. I think 4 is the magical number for max women at a time when you start to get good at this. I went for 9-10 for a couple of months and really could not handle them all. Even at 5 you'll naturally start to slack on the women you feel least interested. Bottom line is you'll be exhausted and your sexual performance will be less than optimal. Just try to fuck different women 6-7 days a week and tell me if your other activities and overall health won't be hurt by it. Staying in sarging mode 24/07 will not do any good, even if you're a Thrill of the Hunt bastard. At times it's best to pause and enjoy the women you already have. If they like you women will chase you. If you're the one chasing something is very wrong. You chase her before you bed her. After you've locked her the best scenario is a 50/50 initiative or a slight balance in your favor.
hey hey 2015-12-22 07:12:02
Minister my opinion: First of all you made the mistake of making her an OLTR from the beginning. You upgrade a woman to an OLTR after several months of surviving The Talk. Second of all you lie to her. This will bite you back eventually. And the last mistake is that your EFA is weak. I guess she will leave you forever and this is your mistake. Enjoy her while she lasts but if i was in your position i would have set my mind from now that i screwed things up with her and that she is set to leave me eventually.
Jack Outside the Box 2015-12-22 07:19:53
Minister - Stop calling her your OLTR. She is nothing of the sort. She is your monogamous girlfriend whom you are cheating on. Facts are facts. There is nothing wrong with that (in my opinion), but you can't call her your OLTR. She's too blue pill for that. Also, you are needy and have a scarcity mentality.
Minister 2015-12-22 07:27:21
@Jack Outside the Box, You know nothing about me to say things like that personally. I call her OLTR, because currently I don't have other MLTRs. Just ONS on the side. And I haven't promised her monogamy so that I 'cheat' on her.
hey hey 2015-12-22 07:39:21
Minister, an OLTR knows that you get something discreetly on the side. To call a woman an OLTR you come to a point where you tell her your facts and you both lay down some ground rules. I believe you haven't made your homework correctly.
Blackdragon 2015-12-22 09:27:18
I have a 5 months OLTR, that I am very happy with, but I am sure she would under no circumstances survive The TalkThen she is not qualified for an OLTR, and you need to consider her an MLTR and go find another woman more compatible with you.
I think that the safest option is what I am already doing, which is sleeping with other women on the side, without saying anything.This is called "cheating" and "lying." This will lead to drama, guaranteed. If you don't mind drama in your life, and lots of men don't, then go for it. But if you prefer long-term happiness, what you're doing is the opposite of what you should do.
I call her OLTR, because currently I don’t have other MLTRs. Just ONS on the side.She is still not an OLTR. She's a "monogamous" girlfriend.
I haven’t promised her monogamy so that I ‘cheat’ on her.1. You are lying to her on regular basis and clearly said this in your first comment. And I quote: "it becomes tiring hiding the truth. When I want to date another women or stay alone for a while, I have to lie to her." Your entire relationship is based on lies. Again, if that's what you want then go ahead, but if you want to be long-term happy (instead of just short-term happy), you're doing this all wrong. 2. You are cheating on her. If you don't believe me, tell her you're fucking other women and watch how she reacts. But you already know how she'll react, thus you continue to lie to her. You have oneitis.
You upgrade a woman to an OLTR after several months of surviving The Talk.Correct. Surviving the talk is one of the requirements for OLTR (and long-term MLTR too).
Stop calling her your OLTR. She is nothing of the sort. She is your monogamous girlfriend whom you are cheating on. Facts are facts.Also correct. This is a "monogamous" relationship (with quotes) as I define it here.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-12-22 10:17:51
How do you break the news that you're in an OLTR/OM with side women? Admittedly this is something I still haven't found a 100% consistent system for. I've tried telling them before sex, which does work but always results in ONS. I can tell them after a couple of times and it can go either way. Certainly I've hooked girls in as FB's that would have otherwise never gone for it had I have told them I was in an OM from the start, but the flipside of this is some girls feel they're being led on if you wait until later to drop the news. Some girls I just haven't told at all, and at the end of the day if it's just a casual thing and they're seeing other guys what business is it of their's whether you're married or not? In fact some girls react with shock that you've even told them "This was never going to be anything serious anyway so why did you have to tell me at all?" etc. Obviously the ideal scenario for me would be being able to tell a girl as soon as possible I'm in an OM, because it means less drama and less having to explain away things like why we're having sex in a hotel, but doing so without scaring them off (or losing her to a competing alpha that is single, a reality in a tough dating market), and if I tell them too early it's almost a guarantee I scare them off or she just opts for a guy who's single because it's easier, as opposed to waiting until later when they realize they can still have a normal casual relationship with me despite me being married. Telling them upfront almost never works, the competition is just too fierce. You might get an initial good reaction but you always lose them to another guy before anything eventuates unless it's a ONS. So for online, for example, a typical response would be "Thanks for being honest. I'm actually not looking for anything serious so I'd be totally fine seeing someone who's in an open marriage, but why would I when there are so many other guys who I'm just as attracted to who are single?" One unique selling point is that you'll never get clingy or jealous and as soon as she finds a guy for something serious you won't become weird etc. but I've tried this pitch and it doesn't really fly.
Blackdragon 2015-12-22 18:50:58
How do you break the news that you’re in an OLTR/OM with side women? Admittedly this is something I still haven’t found a 100% consistent system for.I have. I've described it in more detail in other blog posts and my books, but the summary is: 1. Date her for at least three months as an FB or MLTR, during which time you demonstrate to her a very strong, very consistent Alpha Male / open/poly EFA but don't verbalize the relationship. You don't discuss fucking other women but you don't hide it or deny it either. You follow all the relationship rules presented in the above blog post. If she brings up the relationship, blow it off or flat-out tell her you're not discussing that. 2. At or after three months, when she really puts her foot down, then give her The Talk in a very nice but strong way. If your proper EFA was strong during the last several months, she'll complain a little bit but keep seeing you. Done. The problem is guys leap to step two without step one. They either tell a woman right up front, which as you have observed doesn't work (because no emotional or sexual bond has been built), or they present the EFA of a monogamous boyfriend for weeks / months, and then deliver The Talk when it's way too late, which results in a drama explosion, because they're being so incongruent with her by violating the expectations he built up in her.
Jack Outside the Box 2015-12-22 20:37:54
BD, I think you misunderstood his question. He was asking, when you're already in an OLTR or an open marriage, how do you break that news to your FBs who think you're single?
Blackdragon 2015-12-22 21:03:49
He was asking, when you’re already in an OLTR or an open marriage, how do you break that news to your FBs who think you’re single?Ah, okay. If you're in an OLTR you don't live with, it's the same system I laid out above. If you're in an OLTR you actually live with or are married to, George is right, it's dicey no matter what you do. You have two options, both of which are problematic, requiring you to put in more numbers. Option one is to tell them right off the bat. Women will often just next you on the spot, but, there are three exceptions to this: 1. Honry, low-ASD VYW who are looking for a good time and who are not provider hunters 2. Sugar babies 3. Women who are already married and are either cheating on their husbands or have an open marriage. Many men with live-in OLTRs screen heavily for one or more of the above types of women when they go sarging for side-women. Option two is to tell them later. This can work and lots of guys do this, but the problem is unless they're super relaxed VYW, they're eventually going to expect more, and you're eventually going to have to tell them. Then you're in for drama or a next. Not to mention the dishonesty factor. The drama + the dishonesty makes this option unavailable to me if I ever did this, but lots of guys don't have a problem with it. A possible third option that I've never seen tested, but that I will attempt myself if I ever have a live-in OLTR, is to spend several years building up a huge roster of 94% returning ex-FBs and ex-MLTRs (I already have this in place) and simply rely on side-sex from these women once you move in with your OLTR. Even if these women end up getting married or boyfriended themselves (and they will) they can keep fucking you (and they will; that part I have massively field tested), during their marriage/BF and after they get divorced/broken up. Obviously this method won't work if you crave new women, and it may not work if your live-in OLTR lasts a very long time (10+ years) and all of your FBs eventually leave and don't come back. If this happened I would supplement my FBs with new women via the screening model above (though I wouldn't be very happy about it, since I hate screening, but that's the price you pay for living with a woman...which is one of the reasons I may never live with anyone). As is always the case, moving in with a woman introduces a host of new problems that you need to plan on and have battle plans for well in advance of you actually moving in with her.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-12-22 23:30:50
1. Honry, low-ASD VYW who are looking for a good time and who are not provider huntersALL women are provider hunters. Even horny, low-asd, VYW. A female's ideal is Alpha fux, Alpha bux. If you're well above the level of man she could ever get or hope to get to commit in the market in which you live, you can be Alpha fux (especially if she's young), sure. But if 20 other taller, more ripped, better looking men are offering her sex, then good luck with that. In that case you're going to have to bring some provider traits to the table OR dangle them as a carrot (even if indirectly by just not addressing the relationship, as you recommend). So horny, low-asd, VYW will opt for super good looking, sexy, exciting alpha fux over beta bux, but if they can get super good looking, sexy, exciting alpha fux AND his alpha bux, she'll opt for that for sure. And very good looking, young women CAN get that. So if you're telling them upfront you're in an OLTR/OM then you're straight away telling tham that you're 100% Alpha fux, which means you can really only get up to about a 7/10, as all the 8+/10's are getting better offers (Alpha fux and at least some, or the possibility of, Alpha Bux), at least HERE in this market.
2. Sugar babiesThis definitely works and will get you hotter women than 1, they don't care if you're married IF you're paying. You can bang them for free no problem IF you lie and tell them you're single (because they think they have a chance of obtaining your Alpha fux long term) as soon as they know you're married, forget it, you're paying or she's gone. UNLESS you're playing the 'my wife doesn't understand me, you do, we no longer love each other and rarely have sex, I'm thinking of leaving her etc.' bullshit card, and making her believe you might leave your wife for her.
3. Women who are already married and are either cheating on their husbands or have an open marriage.Supply and demand, for every 1 woman looking to cheat or in an open marriage there are 10 guys who are looking to cheat or in an open relationship/marriage. These women are needles in a haystack, and in massively high demand even from single guys because all they are looking for is NSA sex. Generally speaking they are rare because women don't usually operate like this, men will cheat, women will just get a divorce and monkey branch which is part of the reason why 80% of divorces are initiated by women. So option one (telling them straight away) is basically out unless you're happy with less attractive women, paying or are super lucky and find a hot open marriage woman and some how are the best option out of the 100's of men trying to get her free sex. The other problem is women have been stung before by guys LYING about being in open marriages/OLTR's, so they'll just next you to not have the hassle even if you're telling the truth and your gf/wife is totally on board. Option three (having a roster of past girls) is only workable for shorter period OLTR's/OM's, in time all those women will disappear from your life, and it only works if you've lived in the same city for a long time before getting into your OLTR/OM, if you move, say goodbye to all those women and you'll have to rebuild, leaving you in the same predicament. Option two (not telling them early on) is the only workable option for getting super hotties for 'free' I've found, but do you know the amount of lies and games you have to play to make it workable!? Unless you're extremely wealthy and can afford to have a separate love pad, you're going to be using hotels (which means questions, questions I can handle and can work around without her suspecting anything but it requires serious framing and sometimes lies upon lies) or trying to worm your way into her hosting, and eventually she's going to want to come to your place, which isn't possible with a live in OLTR (at least without her realizing you have a gf even if it's not against your OLTR rules). If you're in a non live in OLTR, it may as well be the same as being single provided there isn't a bunch of tells at your place, as soon as you're living together though, that's when things become tricky. I'd wager in most markets in the world it's near impossible to bed 8+/10 women consistently when you're in an OLTR/OM without either lying/hiding your relationship (at least early on) or paying.
Blackdragon 2015-12-22 23:59:30
ALL women are provider hunters.Utterly incorrect. You were doing great but now you're back to making your sweeping, general, alarmist statements again.
So horny, low-asd, VYW will opt for super good looking, sexy, exciting alpha fux over beta bux, but if they can get super good looking, sexy, exciting alpha fux AND his alpha bux, she’ll opt for that for sure.Yet I fuck hot younger women all the time without paying them any money, and I'm overweight.
Supply and demand, for every 1 woman looking to cheat or in an open marriage there are 10 guys who are looking to cheat or in an open relationship/marriage. These women are needles in a haystack, and in massively high demand even from single guys because all they are looking for is NSA sex.Another overstatement. I'm not sure how it is in Australasia Where Everything Is Horrible and No One Can Get Laid™, but in the US there are lots of married women who cheat but who insist that the men they cheat with also be married.
Option three (having a roster of past girls) is only workable for shorter period OLTR’s/OM’s, in time all those women will disappear from your lifeYou're back to your favorite word, "all." You (or I) have no evidence that ALL of your women will eventually vanish from your life. I can tell you for a fact that I've been doing this for 9 years now and I still have women coming back to me from that long ago. (That's why I said if you're looking at an OLTR that lasts well longer than 10 years, you might run into that problem, but I'm not sure, and I wouldn't consider a 10 year relationship as a "shorter period.") I generally agree with your other points though. As I've said many times, if you actually want to live with a woman for the long haul, all of your options are problematic: monogamy, OLTR, whatever. Notice I don't live with anyone. This is why. As usual, the solution is to either never live with a woman, or if you do, find the least-bad option (which will still be bad!) and work with it as best you can. OLTR is the least-bad option (which is still bad!) for men who want to co-habit with a woman, as you can personally attest to.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-12-23 00:13:05
Utterly incorrect.No, correct, and if you disagree we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. Women want ALPHA FUX, ALPHA BUX. Most women can't get this even shorter term, and none can get it long term. You said it yourself in your submissive alpha male post. ALL WOMEN WANT ALPHA FUX ALPHA BUX. They want the Alpha male ideal, but they also want him to commit to only them and provide his resourses to them etc. This is what I mean when I say all women are provider hunters, they all want an ALPHA who is a PROVIDER as well, just that the ones that know this isn't possible, or can't find it will opt for Beta bux (hardcore provider hunters).
Yet I fuck hot younger women all the time without paying them any money, and I’m overweight.You are dangling Alpha fux as a carrot, whether you realize it or not. That's why not telling women about your lifestyle early on works, they think they have a chance of your Alpha Bux long term (alpha bux isn't just money, it's commitment, attention, monogamy etc. all that stuff that women want to secure from an alpha)
No One Can Get LaidNow you're making sweeping alarmist, generalist statements. When did I ever say that, EVER? I said it's a way tougher market. So vs say NYC, your quality and quantity will drop and you'll be working harder for it. I'm also quite good looking, young and wealthy, and I even have a tough time of it, so for your average man here, it is very, very, very hard if they want young, very hot women.
That’s why I said if you’re looking at an OLTR that lasts well longer than 10 years, you might run into that problem, but I’m not sure, and I wouldn’t consider a 10 year relationship as a “shorter period.”Why are you arguing this point. I said it will only work for shorter term OLTR's so we agree. But 10 years!? No way. My OM is 8+ years now. Not a chance have I kept women I was seeing 9 years ago, are you kidding me. Ok, fine, I'll conceded that we can't know for sure. I'm sure it's possible that a woman from 10+ years ago might come back into your life if you're in an OLTR or OM for that long, but I see it as highly improbable.
Minister 2015-12-23 00:33:43
Then she is not qualified for an OLTR, and you need to consider her an MLTR and go find another woman more compatible with you.You are right, BD. I hadn't taken it strictly by definition. Do you think that a woman accepting your non-monogamous frame is a matter of compatibility, instead of red-pillness? In fact, she is the most compatible I have ever had and I am not going to have anyone more compatible than her. She is just raised with other principles. But who knows, oneitis may be talking right now.
You have oneitis.You had written in an old article that oneitis is actions, not words, right? On the contrary, I don't text her all the time, nor act boyfriendish in any way. Actually, she is the one who initiates more.
1. You are lying to her on regular basis and clearly said this in your first comment. And I quote: “it becomes tiring hiding the truth. When I want to date another women or stay alone for a while, I have to lie to her.” Your entire relationship is based on lies. Again, if that’s what you want then go ahead, but if you want to be long-term happy (instead of just short-term happy), you’re doing this all wrong. 2. You are cheating on her. If you don’t believe me, tell her you’re fucking other women and watch how she reacts. But you already know how she’ll react, thus you continue to lie to her.I agree. But how am I supposed to respond when she asks me over and over again why I can't spend the night with her and she is overly persistent with it? I tried joke answers but she wouldn't stop until she got a serious one. You are not supposed to verbalize non-monogamy, either. What should I tell her?
Blackdragon 2015-12-23 00:35:59
No, correct, and if you disagree we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point."Alpha fux beta bux" does not equal "all women are provider hunters." But like you said, let's agree to disagree.
You are dangling Alpha fux as a carrot, whether you realize it or not.Then please explain why these same women fuck me for years and years (though inconsistently), still with zero money paid to them. If they fucked me a few times and vanished forever as soon as they realized I was a cheapass, then you'd have a point. But that's not what I do nor what happens. Remember, I don't do one night stands or things like that; I only do long-term relationships. I'm not interested in anything else. That reminds me. Many years ago I had a hater who went around saying "Blackdragon only gets laid because he lies to girls and tricks them into thinking he's rich and he's going to give them money, and by the time he fucks them, they realize he's not going to give them any money, but by then he's gotten laid and it's too late." This would be valid only if the women I have sex with instantly dumped me as soon as they realized I wasn't going to be paying them or showering them with gifts. Yet these women keep fucking me for years and years and years...hmmm.
Not a chance have I kept women I was seeing 9 years ago, are you kidding me.Of course not. You weren't following the FB/MLTR, open/poly, 94% return rate roster model 9+ years ago the way I am now. You can't compare the results to what you did 9 years ago to what I am now doing, or what would then happen if I moved in with an OLTR under my current model. Which, as I said, is the problem with that model. No one has done a live-in OLTR using that "roster model" before, so we have zero information on whether or not it would work. (Because people are still stupidly focusing on trying to make long-term monogamy work.) Yet based on what I'm experiencing 9 years into the game, the results are encouraging. But I still don't know.
Blackdragon 2015-12-23 00:44:45
Do you think that a woman accepting your non-monogamous frame is a matter of compatibility, instead of red-pillness?It's a matter of compatibility, my relationship skill, and her flexibility. It is not a matter of her red-pillness, since my system is workable on "normal" women. There are guys who do open/poly relationships by strictly screening for women who are "down for that" or who have done it before, but that's not my system.
In fact, she is the most compatible I have ever had and I am not going to have anyone more compatible than her.Wow, yeah, confirmed: You have hardcore oneitis. (Or perhaps you're very young and/or inexperienced with women.) This means you're not going to be listening to anything anyone says about this right now until you return to reality.
You had written in an old article that oneitis is actions, not words, right?Correct. Your actions are that you're lying to her about fucking other women and are not going to tell her you're doing this because you think she'll leave you. Therefore, oneitis.
I supposed to respond when she asks me over and over again why I can’t spend the night with her and she is overly persistent with it? I tried joke answers but she wouldn’t stop until she got a serious one. You are not supposed to verbalize non-monogamy, either. What should I tell her?The issue is not what to say when she asks. Your issue is you need to sit her down and tell her what the deal is. If she really loves you and really wants to be with you, she'll be pissed off, but she'll stay. If she's doesn't love you as much as you think, or if she's super rigid and inflexible, she'll leave you. (By the way, if she's super rigid and inflexible, she is not a good girlfriend for you, unless you're a beta.) Either of these two results are good, since in either case you'll be a free man, instead a guy lying to his girlfriend and spending his life sneaking around and hoping he doesn't get caught.
WolfOfGeorgeStreet 2015-12-23 01:01:35
“Alpha fux beta bux”Alpha fux ALPHA bux, is what women really want. They SETTLE for just beta bux (provider hubby) or just alpha fux (stay single and sleep with the guys that turn them on the most).
Then please explain why these same women fuck me for years and years (though inconsistently), still with zero money paid to them.At first you lure them in by dating them, up to 3 dates, you don't tell them you'll never do monogamy etc. IOW you exhibit at least SOME provider traits and I'm betting your online dating profiles have strong indicators of being successful (provider traits). Whether you like it or not these women are sizing you up as a longer term prospect, they all do. This gives you an edge over the younger, better looking, 'sexier' competition. I do the same, if I'm pitching just sex to women the quality I can get instantly drops. Why have just sex with me when they have the option of a 10/10 male model who is also alpha? (yes, not all super good looking guys are alpha, but I guarantee you if she's hot there's at least a few really good looking guys who are alpha hitting her up) So if we want to date model tier women, we have to at least take them out, and exhibit some provider traits IN THE BEGINNING, we have to exhibit all the alpha qualities they love, but some of the provider qualities. Once you have them hooked after a few months though and are giving them great sex you can withdraw any hints of provider. She'll opt for you over a better looking guy at that point if you are better in bed and turn her on more etc. So that's a matter of retention, but for acquisition, you dangle the alpha bux carrot, you have to, otherwise how do you compete with younger, better looking, just as alpha competition? Competition you'll no doubt have if the women you are chasing are very beautiful. Which is why telling them straight off the bat that you'll never be monogamous, or are in an open marriage etc. doesn't work. Because there is competition who is (or appears to be) offering her alpha fux and alpha bux.
Which, as I said, is the problem with that model. No one has done a live-in OLTR using that “roster model” before, so we have zero information on whether or not it would work. (Because people are still stupidly focusing on trying to make long-term monogamy work.) Yet based on what I’m experiencing 9 years into the game, the results are encouraging. But I still don’t know.Agreed
Minister 2015-12-23 02:32:30
Good points, BD. Just one objection:
The issue is not what to say when she asks. Your issue is you need to sit her down and tell her what the deal is. If she really loves you and really wants to be with you, she’ll be pissed off, but she’ll stay. If she’s doesn’t love you as much as you think, or if she’s super rigid and inflexible, she’ll leave you. (By the way, if she’s super rigid and inflexible, she is not a good girlfriend for you, unless you’re a beta.)The point of verbalization is supposed to happen after three month. The thing is that she started being persistent about spending the night MUCH earlier. Should I have broken the rules?
POB 2015-12-23 04:27:19
Which, as I said, is the problem with that model. No one has done a live-in OLTR using that “roster model” before, so we have zero information on whether or not it would work. (Because people are still stupidly focusing on trying to make long-term monogamy work.) Yet based on what I’m experiencing 9 years into the game, the results are encouraging. But I still don’t know.If I had to bet I would say it's very doable! As long as you keep hitting the market and do not waste much time on monogamous relationships, by the time you hit the live-in OLTR mark your pool will be large enough to provide FBs for the rest of your life. I'm not nearly as experienced as BD on this matter, but by fucking an ex after almost 10 years of not seeing her (did this before learning anything about game) I would say women will return to their favorite Alphas no matter what (time, marriages, kids etc). Just wish we had any reliable info on this.
CrabRangoon 2015-12-23 09:13:58
@POB Your line "I would say women will return to their favorite Alphas no matter what (time, marriages, kids etc)" is very true. It's happened to me a few times. I've hooked up with girls from my past after they've married and even had kids. They go away sometimes for years, get bored with their TMM and start asking to hang out. The married ones or girls on LTR's years long are the biggest offenders. I'm always curious to see who will be the next one reaching out. Long live Alpha 2.0!
Blackdragon 2015-12-23 11:13:21
The point of verbalization is supposed to happen after three month. The thing is that she started being persistent about spending the night MUCH earlier. Should I have broken the rules?You never break the rules. The entire reason she started persisting much earlier is precisely because you broke the rules. I very much doubt you were following the 5 rules I listed above in the article, since that's not what monogamous people like you do. You keep trying to shove your relationship into some kind of open/poly one. It isn't. You're "monogamous," so there is no "technique" to fix her other than to do that I said: come clean and deal with the fallout.
As long as you keep hitting the market and do not waste much time on monogamous relationships, by the time you hit the live-in OLTR mark your pool will be large enough to provide FBs for the rest of your life.I think so too but I can't say it definitively. If I ever move in with someone (and I may not) I guess I'll be the world's first guinea pig for this.
I would say women will return to their favorite Alphas no matter what (time, marriages, kids etc).Now that is verifiably true. It's happened to me scores of times, as well as with tons of guys all over the world who do this. The Alpha Male 2.0 is very compelling to women over a LONG span of time (though inconsistently) in ways both the beta and the Alpha 1.0 are not.
CrabRangoon 2015-12-23 12:02:38
On a side note, the new movie "Daddy's Home" seems to blatantly display the Alpha Fux/Beta Bux dynamic with Mark Wahlberg as the Alpha and Will Ferrell as a pathetic Beta desperate to win the affections of the single mom and her kids. Although not the intent, I think it'll be a valuable lesson for guys out there. I'm sure Disney hollyweird will have a very happy ending with Will Ferrell "winning over" the kids and mom by being such a good boy provider.
ETA 2015-12-23 19:38:40
This is Alpha 2.0 101 Starter pack! Great list... I'll try to follow through, as I've struggled balancing sex life and career, going from having a new lay every week to months monk-like life with work. I've been wondering about something though, in regards to your system. But first I want to share my view of inter-gender relationships: Men want unlimited sex, but they also want legacy, that's the main reason why men, even the most Alphas agree to limit their access to sex, for the sake of raising their progeny(legacy). That's why we as men have "mate guarding" instincts in preventing the woman to fool around behind our back , to make sure that the legacy is truly ours. This instincts are stronger when the man is young and hasn't capitalized yet on his desire for a legacy. If I'm not mistaken, You've said that you started this lifestyle after your divorce and many years after your kids were born. You completed the full cycle of what a man goes through in his life, and now you're back starting over but with different goals. It is easy for you to keep the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle as you've already capitalized on your desire for legacy. Thus, your "mate guarding" instincts don't kick in, when allowing your OLTR/MLTRs to go with other men. My question is, would this system work for a man who has yet to capitalize on his desire for a legacy, as you yourself didn't incorporate this lifestyle right from the beginning. I understand that it might be easier for men that come from an individualistic society such as this, and their desire for legacy is not as strong, but still... Looking back at my country(Albania) I now recall many cases where couples have your lifestyle. They pretty much have your rules, but unspoken (VERY discrete). But even in those cases that lifestyle started after they had their kids. I have my own theory, which is open to criticism: What I'd personally suggest for young men who want to have kids, is something in between the "Mediterranean marriage" and your Alpha 2.0 system: First do everything as you say, create the frame for an open relationship. The difference would be with the guys that want to have an OLTR with kids, during the time of conceiving (a few years) the man should have exclusivity of his woman, until a couple of years after the last child. The woman shouldn't have a problem agreeing with this as her BetaBux(possibly Alpha Bux) kicks in, and her priority become the kids at this point. This way, her AF/BB insticts and your unlimited sexuality and legacy desire(mate guarding instinct) are satisfied.
Blackdragon 2015-12-23 20:01:50
Men want unlimited sex, but they also want legacy, that’s the main reason why men, even the most Alphas agree to limit their access to sex, for the sake of raising their progeny(legacy). That’s why we as men have “mate guarding” instincts in preventing the woman to fool around behind our back , to make sure that the legacy is truly ours.Correct. This is called Obsolete Biological Wiring (OBW) that I describe in detail in my book. In the 1800s this kind of thing was very important, but in the 21st century with condoms, birth control, pregnancy tests, abortion, and $20 paternity DNA tests you can pick up at any Walgreens, this behavior is no longer necessary, is simply a waste of time, and is a source of needless angst and drama.
You’ve said that you started this lifestyle after your divorce and many years after your kids were born. You completed the full cycle of what a man goes through in his life, and now you’re back starting over but with different goals. It is easy for you to keep the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle as you’ve already capitalized on your desire for legacy. Thus, your “mate guarding” instincts don’t kick in, when allowing your OLTR/MLTRs to go with other men.Incorrect in my case. Back when I was married, I was VERY willing to let my wife at the time go fuck other men as long as I was allowed fuck hot young chicks on the side, and I felt this way even at the very outset of the marriage.
My question is, would this system work for a man who has yet to capitalize on his desire for a legacyYes, of course. As I've said, having kids and being a good father as absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with absolute sexual monogamy all times. If the goal of you and your gal is to have kids, obviously you need to both be careful about birth control, both for yourselves and side-people, but this is easy as long as you're organized. (Notice I've never gotten a woman pregnant on accident, and I've had a massive amount of sex with a massive amount of people. I know many women who can say the same.)
The difference would be with the guys that want to have an OLTR with kids, during the time of conceiving (a few years) the man should have exclusivity of his woman, until a couple of years after the last child.The problem is that's monogamy, and that subjects you to a huge pile of rules, arguments, drama, and jealousy that the Alpha 2.0 doesn't ever have to worry about. Here's a concept a lot of men have trouble with: Whether or not you think you have a perfectly rational reason for monogamy doesn't mean the myriad of monogamy's negatives suddenly go away. They'll still be there, still be a problem, and still damage your freedom and happiness. No thank you. Going all Alpha 1.0 and demanding that your OLTR doesn't fuck anyone while you're out banging hotties on the side either will not work (she'll leave your or cheat on you), or will get you torrent of drama. You could also promise to not fuck any girls on the side for a few years, but now you're lying, because you know you will (unless you're a low sex drive beta), and like all men who cheat, you'll get caught, and now you're back to square one (massive drama or a terminated relationship). However, an Alpha 2.0 with a live-in OLTR wanting kids would be perfectly within his bounds to warn his OLTR that she better be light on the side-guy fucking, and she'd better be god damn sure that any guy she fucks is wearing a condom. Most importantly, he needs to clearly tell her that any baby she has is going to be paternity tested the split second it comes out of her vag, and if he's not the father, he's going to instantly hard next her ass and kick her out of his house. (And he fucking means it; it's not a bluff.) An OLTR woman who was properly vetted according to my rules and recommendations regarding OLTR formation shouldn't have a problem with this. If she does, you fucked up and chose the wrong OLTR in the first place.
FiveSix 2015-12-24 09:50:05
If you’re in an OLTR you don’t live with, it’s the same system I laid out above. If you’re in an OLTR you actually live with or are married to, George is right, it’s dicey no matter what you do. You have two options, both of which are problematic, requiring you to put in more numbers. Option one is to tell them right off the bat. Women will often just next you on the spot, but, there are three exceptions to this: 1. Honry, low-ASD VYW who are looking for a good time and who are not provider hunters 2. Sugar babies 3. Women who are already married and are either cheating on their husbands or have an open marriage.Damn, I've confused this since I'm in an open marriage and was never sure the best time to bring it up (if at all). Option 3 has a big logistic problem: if the girl is married, even an open one, a SNL is improbable, since the husband is most likely home too.
Duke 2015-12-24 13:17:10
DO NOT meet any of her family, buy her gifts, go travelling with her, text her every day, or any of that stuff. That’s boyfriend shit. Save that for 6-12 months down the road if you still like her and she’s been low-drama the entire time and she’s survived The Talk. If you start doing boyfriend stuff too early, you’re going to either A) cause all kinds of drama and damage to the relationship or B) chase her away.Does holding her hand when you're out with her in public count as boyfriend behavior assuming one is following the once a week rule?
Minister 2015-12-25 04:34:38
I would add one more essential 'rule' to the above, which I wish I had followed religiously back in the days. DON'T date any woman that is below 8, because you will end up wanting nothing more than a ONS from her. The ultimate condition, under which you will want to stick around for more fucks, is that she is HOT. Period. Otherwise, you may rationalize that you are just a TOTH guy or a stubborn player, when this is not true, instead of blaming her body.
Blackdragon 2015-12-25 12:37:27
Does holding her hand when you’re out with her in public count as boyfriend behavior assuming one is following the once a week rule?It is technically not boyfriend behavior, thus allowed for MLTR or OLTR (not FB!). However, in my opinion, holding hands is strong beta behavior. I never, ever hold a woman's hand. If we're walking down the street and I want to touch her, I'll grab her, pull her close, and keep my arm around her waist (if she's tall) or shoulder (if she's shorter). This feels right to me. Holding hands feels sooooooo emasculating.
I would add one more essential ‘rule’ to the above, which I wish I had followed religiously back in the days. DON’T date any woman that is below 8, because you will end up wanting nothing more than a ONS from her.I wouldn't consider that a rule, just a smart thing to do. That's actually an entirely different topic on its own. I don't have sex with any women I consider less than an 8 (grandfathered women excepted), and never have. I actually find it odd so many men out there spend real time and effort dating and/or having sex with women they consider average or ugly. But I admit I'm the weirdo here and men fucking average/ugly women is the norm.
Minister 2015-12-26 02:44:56
I wouldn’t consider that a rule, just a smart thing to do. That’s actually an entirely different topic on its own.Either called 'rule' or the smart thing to do, you are going to stop liking her pretty quickly, unless she is at least hot. You know very well what you do. If you settled for average or ugly women, too, we wouldn't talk about any relationship model at all, but ONS or temporary hookups. So, I dare say that dating HOT women is the foundation of your relationship system. Even though I know very well that spotting and nailing such women online is like finding needles in a haystack. Also, why do women assume monogamy anyway, just because you did an isolated boyfriendish act, such as buy her a drink once or go on a trip with her? If I do something more with her, does it mean necessarily that I am monogamous? Sigh with that logic.
Blackdragon 2015-12-26 12:10:10
Also, why do women assume monogamy anyway, just because you did an isolated boyfriendish act, such as buy her a drink once or go on a trip with her?It's not the isolated act. It's if you demonstrate a pattern of behavior.
If I do something more with her, does it mean necessarily that I am monogamous?Rationally, no. In an irrational, emotional, girl brain? Yes.
Laura 2015-12-28 13:04:21
Comment deleted for violation of Rule Number One. And by the way, if the guy you're talking about lied to you and told you there were no other women, he was not following my advice. Quite the opposite in fact.
Minister 2015-12-31 07:56:51
Should you see only once a week even high-end MLTRs? Would you fuck up your EFA if you meet them more often than that?
Blackdragon 2015-12-31 10:23:12
Should you see only once a week even high-end MLTRs?Yep. Though you can extend the time of the visit. She could come over on Friday, spend the night, spend all day with you Saturday, then go home Saturday evening, and that's her once a week (you don't see her again until next Thursday or Friday or so).
Would you fuck up your EFA if you meet them more often than that?Yep. Seeing a woman once a week will even damage your EFA in an OLTR (at least a little), but in an OLTR that's part of the price you pay for the pair bonding.
POB 2016-01-04 05:55:05
As long as you keep hitting the market and do not waste much time on monogamous relationships, by the time you hit the live-in OLTR mark your pool will be large enough to provide FBs for the rest of your life.
I think so too but I can’t say it definitively. If I ever move in with someone (and I may not) I guess I’ll be the world’s first guinea pig for this.Count me in as subject number 2 LOL.
I would say women will return to their favorite Alphas no matter what (time, marriages, kids etc).
Now that is verifiably true. It’s happened to me scores of times, as well as with tons of guys all over the world who do this. The Alpha Male 2.0 is very compelling to women over a LONG span of time (though inconsistently) in ways both the beta and the Alpha 1.0 are not.Thanks for proving my suspicions true! It is in fact an amazing thing! A lot of time may go by and a lot of changes may occur in their lives but as soon as they get back in the fold, it's as good as it's ever been! Very encouraging to us Alpha 2.0s.
DarthInvader 2016-01-05 14:32:47
Hi. I have read some of your books and I must say that you are my hero. Long before I found out about your work I used to be a pro-polyamory guy. The thing is that every time I got more serious with an MLTR, I fucked it up. Doing some digging, I figured that the MLTRs that really liked me chased me hard. For example, they would blow my phone or my inbox everyday. I found it over-reacting to ignore them, so I would politely answer and after a brief exchange end the conversation. So before I know it, I found myself breaking the rules talking to them constantly. On top of that I would even meet them day after damn day because they were begging to see me. So, what do you suggest is the right course of action when they aggressively initiate so often?
Blackdragon 2016-01-05 17:01:57
what do you suggest is the right course of action when they aggressively initiate so often?You need to slowly ween them off of that habit. Start ignoring her texts every other day. Then after about a week or two of that, start ignoring them every three days. By that time she'll get the point and stop bugging you so often. Putting up with an MLTR who literally is texting you every day is bad. It's sending boyfriend signals even if you're not the one initiating it.
DarthInvader 2016-01-06 02:24:11
You probably mean that I start ignoring them every three days and then more often, every other day. What if she doesn't get the point again? I guess a soft next for a week, right?
Blackdragon 2016-01-06 10:21:17
Right. But stop with the "what if?" stuff. That's needy. Just execute.
Luke 2016-01-08 08:55:36
Should you have the Talk, ONLY if she initiates it?
Blackdragon 2016-01-08 09:54:21
Luke 2016-01-08 10:33:10
Well, I am with a girl for 4 months now and she hasn't asked me anything yet about seeing other women or what she means to me. I have followed all of the rules in the article. Should I get worried?
Blackdragon 2016-01-08 10:45:08
No, you should be extraordinarily happy and dancing in the streets. Millions of men would love to be in your situation. Hopefully she'll go another 12 months like this.
Kella 2016-02-05 00:01:48
BD. What do you do if you are down to only one FB/MLTR (unable to find more at the moment) -- and you have NRE/feelings for this girl? -- And you are unsure if she is feeling the same for you? Should you go no contact until you find more girls? Should you try to find out if she also has feelings somehow? (I feel that if both have feelings, its "on the same page" and more manegable.) Do you ever confess your own feelings? I am btw sure she's had feelings for me before (she confessed earlier), not sure at the moment though. Or do you just man up, try to "control" the feelings, and see her as usual? It's sex like once every 1-3 weeks, and the strong NRE/feelings in the time between is being harsh. Not sure if it's worth it.. But it's the only sex I get at the current moment. Suggestions?
Blackdragon 2016-02-05 09:57:55
What do you do if you are down to only one FB/MLTR (unable to find more at the moment) — and you have NRE/feelings for this girl? — And you are unsure if she is feeling the same for you? Should you go no contact until you find more girls?I wouldn't next the only girl you have because she's the only girl you have; instead you should immediately go get another girl. You're de facto monogamous right now and that's not a good thing.
Should you try to find out if she also has feelings somehow?No. It's completely irrelevant. To everything.
Do you ever confess your own feelings?Only after several months at MLTR status and if she's been great and if I have them, sure. But this one girl you have right now isn't an MLTR. She's a monogamous girlfriend, so in your case no, I wouldn't do it. (Unless you want to go monogamous, then I can't help you.)
Or do you just man up, try to “control” the feelings, and see her as usual?No. What would I do that? Good feelings feel good and I enjoy them. Your problem has nothing to do with feelings, yours or hers. Your focusing in the wrong place. Your problem is that you're only fucking one girl. Get more.
Kella 2016-02-05 12:29:07
BD, thanks a lot for the advice! What I mean with "man up and control my feelings" is, I think about her a lot (because she is the only one I have RIGHT NOW..) when it has been days and I haven't heard from her (being the only girl for me ATM) I feel like a smoker being out of cigarettes. Like my days are cursed. I will try my best to get more girls. I do have a HB5 I could bang (she is very into me) but I have zero attraction to her (my "main girl" is a hb8) -- any point banging the hb5 anyway "just to bang"? I do not see the point when having zero attraction but maybe it's worth it if you only have one hot girl ATM and lacking more? Just FYI -- I only see my main girl (hb8) once per week and only text her once or twice per week (as your advice says) to avoid oneitis, drama, and increase her attraction. Thanks again.
Blackdragon 2016-02-06 12:55:19
it has been days and I haven’t heard from her (being the only girl for me ATM) I feel like a smoker being out of cigarettes. Like my days are cursed.Yeah. That's called "monogamy." Doesn't feel good, does it?
Kella 2016-02-09 13:27:38
@BD Monogamy doesn't feel very good, no. 🙂 A general question about FB's/MLTR's and the "initiate contact max 1-2 times per week" If you have a FB/MLTR who very rarely initiates contact with YOU -- do you still initiate contact 1-2 times per week? In a situation where the last 4+ texts are initiated by YOU (still in total only 1-2 per week), do you still keep initiating? It feels a bit "needy" being the one doing all the initiating, even if it's only 1-2 times per week in total -- Thoughts on this? Do you "wait her out", even if weeks pass by -- or do you just not care about being the one always initiating? Thanks a lot.
Blackdragon 2016-02-09 21:28:46
If you have a FB/MLTR who very rarely initiates contact with YOU — do you still initiate contact 1-2 times per week?In that scenario I only initiate once a week or less, just enough to schedule that once a week (or less) meet. I LOVE those kinds of girls.
Kella 2016-02-19 15:23:10
BD, Ok new and short question: How do you handle when your MLTR wants to know "What did you do last night" when you were with another girl (FB)? I know you do not advocate lying, ever -- but what exactly do you say, dodge the question somehow? Or just say "I was seeing a friend" (because it's not really a lie)? Thanks.
Blackdragon 2016-02-19 20:42:18
How do you handle when your MLTR wants to know “What did you do last night” when you were with another girl (FB)?"I had a lot of fun." "I was out with friends." "I hung out with a friend." Then change the subject. If she pushes for more details, just do the Gene Simmons thing: give her a strange look and ask, "Who's asking? Are you my wife? Mother?" Then change the subject. And now Mr. Kella, are now officially out of free questions; you've asked plenty here and on other threads and I've answered them all. If you want any more advice, pay for my coaching.
Kella 2016-02-19 23:41:51
I understand! Thanks a lot for taking your time -- I might consider coaching, I'll let you know.
Cherie 2016-04-05 08:51:04
BD, First, off, I would just like to say, as a woman (albeit a very open minded one), I find your ideas of the man/woman dynamic and the open relationship aspect SO refreshing, honest, and CORRECT!! Thank God men are finally realizing they need to act like MEN, and everyone will be happier! I am happy to say I have been "dating" an fairly newly developed Alpha 2.0 for just over 6 months now, with no problems. We both would agree that I've been elevated over that time to a high level MLTR, and we enjoy our time together immensely. The question I have, is that our relationship is VERY close. We are not "in love" but definitely have a love for each other. And contrary to your contact rules, we actually spend significant amounts of time together (3 days a week + on avg), and when we are not together, if we are not busy or with other people, we generally have long, in depth text conversations. Does this violate the "rules" as they should be? Or do you reach a point with your relationships where those things become moot points?
Blackdragon 2016-04-05 17:22:08
And contrary to your contact rules, we actually spend significant amounts of time together (3 days a week + on avg), and when we are not together, if we are not busy or with other people, we generally have long, in depth text conversations.Yeah, he's not following my advice and is making a huge mistake. I'm sure you're loving it though.
Does this violate the “rules” as they should be?Yes, massively. Only OLTRs can be seen more than once a week, which means you've both sat down and made clear, verbal commitments to each other regarding emotional exclusivity, which it sounds like you have not.
Cherie 2016-04-05 18:38:09
No, we have not reached the OLTR stage yet, though he has admitted how much he has emotionally attached to me, he also wants to be sure he doesn't fall into his old habits and become emotionally dependent. And I refuse to emotionally invest until we reach that point as well. And he is definitely still actively seeing other women as fbs, so he isn't developing oneitis. Any advice I could give him to help him keep his long term goals? I am not concerned about me or my relationship to him in this situation btw, just know how important his fundamental happiness is to him.
Blackdragon 2016-04-05 19:17:09
No, we have not reached the OLTR stage yet, though he has admitted how much he has emotionally attached to me, he also wants to be sure he doesn’t fall into his old habits and become emotionally dependent. And I refuse to emotionally invest until we reach that point as well.Then he should be seeing you just once a week (even if that means spending the night once a week) and he should be keeping the phone/text contact to a minimum. I don't expect that to happen of course.
Jacknimble 2016-04-18 05:12:10
I bought your Open Relationships book recently, and that brought me here, looking for some clarification. I've got a couple issues. You strongly recommend that in order to set up the OR, you need to leave "evidence" and have a lot of girls on your FB page etc. How critical is this? Because where I am, online dating has a pool of about 20 women, and I have yet to pickup in daygame. As of now, I've got just one chick. I'm holding fast to all the other rules. Reading this article, I may have screwed up. I don't have feelings for her or expect to. She isn't my type sexually, and I'd definitely replace her if I got my hands on other girls that are. But, I have put her in the WD category rather than the FB category, partly because she specifically said she wouldn't accept it if we spent no time doing anything but sex, and partly because I do enjoy dates, and haven't got another option yet. We go shoot pool, watch a movie at home, I cook us dinner, that kind of thing, nothing over the top. Thoughts? Lastly, I've been very curious how you "set up" the FB's. Because you always take women on at least 1 date prior to sex, doesn't this establish a precedent that the women will resist? Don't they complain or ask you to spend time with them at some point? Seems there is not much in your writings specifically around how to create/manage/maintain FB's.
Blackdragon 2016-04-18 10:49:42
You strongly recommend that in order to set up the OR, you need to leave “evidence” and have a lot of girls on your FB page etc. How critical is this?Not super critical but extremely helpful.
Reading this article, I may have screwed up. I don’t have feelings for her or expect to. She isn’t my type sexually, and I’d definitely replace her if I got my hands on other girls that are. But, I have put her in the WD category rather than the FB category, partly because she specifically said she wouldn’t accept it if we spent no time doing anything but sex, and partly because I do enjoy dates, and haven’t got another option yet. We go shoot pool, watch a movie at home, I cook us dinner, that kind of thing, nothing over the top. Thoughts?If you're treating her like a WD/MLTR, then that's fine. If the primary reason you're doing it is because she's demanded it and you don't want to lose her, you're being a needy beta and need to next her ass right now and find some new women.
Lastly, I’ve been very curious how you “set up” the FB’s. Because you always take women on at least 1 date prior to sex, doesn’t this establish a precedent that the women will resist? Don’t they complain or ask you to spend time with them at some point?If they're under 33, no. If they're over 33, sometimes. Again, if your frame is strong and you're doing everything else right (that's big if!) this won't be a problem. They'll continue as an FB, and eventually they'll leave (LSNFTE) you without drama. If you fuck up on the rules, then yeah, you'll get all kinds of complaints.
Minister 2016-05-03 11:04:49
@BD, you said that in order to upgrade a lay to a relationship, either a casual or a serious one, you have to fuck her twice. So what happens if she insists that you go out for a coffee, next time you meet? I had such an incident, where she almost DEMANDED that we go out, instead of her coming to my place. I wasn’t in such a mood, as I wanted her solely as a FB. I wonder if I screwed up my EFA somehow, but I can’t think of anything I did that gives a provider/boyfriend vibe. I didn’t pay for her coffee or say compliments, for example. Quite the opposite. I even tried to fuck her from the first date and we made out hard in a park. Maybe it is that I spent too much time on the second date, looking for a place to isolate her, as she refused to come to my place. Or that I didn’t schedule immediately after the lay, so there had been a week until we get to meet again. But I think I am nitpicking it already, aren’t I?
Blackdragon 2016-05-03 11:23:16
So what happens if she insists that you go out for a coffee, next time you meet? I had such an incident, where she almost DEMANDED that we go out, instead of her coming to my place.I assume you mean for the 2nd date. You agree to it, meet for coffee or a drink, and try to get her back to your place. If that fails, for the third date you pitch at your place. If she still says no, then you have a decision to make. I usually next.
I even tried to fuck her from the first date and we made out hard in a park.That was your problem. If you're following my system, you never kiss or get sexual on the one-hour first date. Just sex talk and kino. Anything beyond that raises ASD and makes it harder to have sex on the 2nd date. Only attempt sex on the first date when you are 100% sure it's going to happen.
Minister 2016-05-03 11:45:15
I assume you mean for the 2nd date. You agree to it, meet for coffee or a drink, and try to get her back to your place. If that fails, for the third date you pitch at your place. If she still says no, then you have a decision to make. I usually next.No BD, you didn't understand. I mean after we had sex. So that I fuck her twice and initiate a relationship... I have already layed her on our third meet. Re-read my comment please 🙂
Blackdragon 2016-05-03 12:21:22
I did read your comment. You didn't make it clear that this was all after you had sex twice. If she's purely a FB and she's demanding dates with no sex after you've had sex twice, then either: A. You fucked up your EFA (as you indicated you might have done). B. She's over age 33. C. She's under age 33 but she's an odd one (I've run into a few of these). You have a judgment call to make. Either you hold to your guns that the next time you meet is at your place (and next her if she balks) or you go along with going out on one platonic date and making it clear the next time will be at your place (which will further damage your EFA). I would hold to my guns and next if she complained.
Minister 2016-05-03 13:47:17
What is really odd is that this was all after we had sex ONCE. I didn't make it to the second time, because she made demands that we meet outdoors. I didn't make it clear again to you. Anyway it doesn't make any sense. The sex with her sucked, as she hadn't had for long time and was quite inexperienced despite her age (around 32). Taking this into account, it is not so surprising if she expects a serious relationship upfront. Thanks for your advice, this is exactly what I have already done. I guess she is hard-nexted.
Blackdragon 2016-05-03 13:59:59
What is really odd is that this was all after we had sex ONCE.Ah, now it all makes sense. (It would have been helpful if you stated that in your first comment.) It's normal for women to do things like that after having sex once. You're not in Lock-In until you've had sex twice. After sex once, women pull all kinds of silly shit. Normal.
Minister 2016-05-04 02:47:35
It’s normal for women to do things like that after having sex once. You’re not in Lock-In until you’ve had sex twice. After sex once, women pull all kinds of silly shit. Normal.So, what should I have done? Scheduling quickly our second intercourse, instead of texting her after two days, like I did? Or would holding my guns be an one-way street? Sorry for asking so many questions.
Blackdragon 2016-05-04 09:27:44
So, what should I have done? Scheduling quickly our second intercourse, instead of texting her after two days, like I did?Yep. There's a blog post coming up that talks about this exact issue.
SurvivalOfTheFittest 2016-05-20 02:02:11
Hello BD, someone gave me the advice of Reading your blog and in changed my Life: i have a girlfriend of almost 2 years and while i always told her that she is free, and that i am the same, this is in theory, it would break her heart because she doesnt really expects me to fuck someone else. She is really important but so is my sex drive: are examples of The Talk to a girl like that explained in some of your books? Thank you
Anon. 2016-05-20 04:19:06
You seem to have failed to convey a nonmonogamous attitude through your actions and nonverbal communication given that you say she doesn’t really expect you to fuck someone else. The Talk is only good if it verbalizes what was long understood anyway. The relevant book is the one on open relationships, but it doesn’t contain any concrete examples of The Talk, all the work has to be done prior to that stage by subtle cues, by which time what exactly you say doesn’t matter that much.
Blackdragon 2016-05-20 09:39:51
i have a girlfriend of almost 2 years and while i always told her that she is free, and that i am the same, this is in theory, it would break her heart because she doesnt really expects me to fuck someone else. She is really important but so is my sex drive: are examples of The Talk to a girl like that explained in some of your books? Thank youThe Talk won't help you since (it sounds like) you guys have been monogamous for 2 years. If you still want to go this route, the book you need is the open marriage one that describes exactly how to take a mono relationship and convert it into an open one. Be warned however, it's very difficult, even if you do everything correctly.
Kevin 2016-06-03 11:19:54
It appears I'm too late to the party. Started seeing a new girl two months ago, gradually stopped seeing the others because they didn't interest me as much as this one. We see each other about 3x/week and, although we haven't had "the talk," it's pretty clear she assumes we're bf/gf. I'm wondering how it will go down if I tell her I really like her and have no designs on other women, but can't promise that will be the case in the long-term and don't want to risk cheating or a messy "breakup". Any experience/advice for this situation?
Blackdragon 2016-06-03 13:33:03
Started seeing a new girl two months ago, gradually stopped seeing the others because they didn’t interest me as much as this one.Mistake number one. Read this.
We see each other about 3x/weekMistake number two.
although we haven’t had “the talk,” it’s pretty clear she assumes we’re bf/gf.Because that's what you are. You're monogamous and are seeing each other 3x/week. She's not doing anything wrong. You are.
I’m wondering how it will go down if I tell her I really like her and have no designs on other women, but can’t promise that will be the case in the long-term and don’t want to risk cheating or a messy “breakup”. Any experience/advice for this situation?I don't understand what you're asking. It sounds like you're asking how to set up a serial monogamous relationship, where you're monogamous until you get bored and then dump her. I'm against that system because I don't do drama or unhappiness, and I don't give advice to guys who want monogamy, so I can't really help you.
Dan 2016-08-18 02:36:33
I'm in a bit of a unique situation at the moment, having a lot of trouble finding "local" girls, I've resorted to importing them from the nearest major metropolitan city. This means over 2 hours (total) of travel time for them. Furthermore, I am not generally available early in the day, and I have personal stuff to do, so I don't have them over before about 8pm. This makes it literally impossible to ask them to return home that same night (even assuming they were willing, the train schedule doesn't run late enough). So, the question is, what do I need to do to make sure I don't run into problems with a girl I want to keep in the FB category, since I'm forced to allow her to spend the night? I'm not sure I even know the philosophy behind that rule in the first place so that would help.
Blackdragon 2016-08-18 12:13:30
So, the question is, what do I need to do to make sure I don’t run into problems with a girl I want to keep in the FB category, since I’m forced to allow her to spend the night?If your lifestyle is such that you're forced to make an exception, then you make the exception, knowing it will cause problems down the road. These kinds of things are the price you pay for choosing to live where you live. If it's a real problem, move.
I’m not sure I even know the philosophy behind that rule in the first place so that would help.Letting her spend the night tells a woman nonverbally that she's not an FB, but instead she's a woman you're dating and have feelings for, which frankly, isn't fair to her. She will start to demand more relationshipy stuff from you, and give you drama if you don't comply.
Tom 2016-08-23 00:35:59
As a follow-up to JackNimble on the evidence stuff. What counts as evidence on a FB page? Just girls making flirty comments? What kind of content are you posting to get the interactions and "evidence" that you are talking about? Is evidence something you avoid during phase one (i.e. prior to lock-in?) I keep condoms all over the house, for example. A girl doesn't really have to be doing anextable offense act (such as reading my emails or phone) to notice that the number of condoms and/or brand/type are different week to week, from the last time she came over. It seems crazy to try and keep on top of making the numbers/brand consistent to her last visit, but at the same time, I wonder if it's not in the "proof" category we are supposed to avoid?
Blackdragon 2016-08-23 12:46:51
What counts as evidence on a FB page? Just girls making flirty comments?No. That's evidence. Proof would be a girl on your FB page saying, "I LOVED our date last night! Can't wait to see you on Wednesday, sexy!"
Is evidence something you avoid during phase one (i.e. prior to lock-in?)No. You want evidence during phase one to help your EFA.
I keep condoms all over the house, for example. A girl doesn’t really have to be doing anextable offense act (such as reading my emails or phone) to notice that the number of condoms and/or brand/type are different week to week, from the last time she came over. It seems crazy to try and keep on top of making the numbers/brand consistent to her last visit, but at the same time, I wonder if it’s not in the “proof” category we are supposed to avoid?Condoms are not proof. They're evidence. Think like a cop or an attorney. So you have a different number of condoms than last time. Is that proof you fucked someone? Nope. That's evidence. Now she sees a used condom in your bathroom trash, placed there recently. That's proof. I would avoid that.
Tom 2016-08-23 19:29:06
What I meant is, what kind of content is it that YOU put up there, that contributes to having a good FB page that furthers your EFA? Are you posting photos of yourself with the women you date? I know you talk about giving smartass answers "oh those are my friend Larry's earrings!" if she confronts over the evidence, but I can't think of anything good about the condoms if she confronts, what would you say ? : )
Blackdragon 2016-08-23 20:55:32
What I meant is, what kind of content is it that YOU put up there, that contributes to having a good FB page that furthers your EFA? Are you posting photos of yourself with the women you date?To be clear, I don't mess with my personal FB page anymore barely at all, but back in the day when I was in the heat of this stuff, I would post funny or interesting comments, funny or interesting links, photos from my life of me doing fun or interesting things, and stuff like that. I would encourage all of my women, ex-women, and female acquaintances to post comments on that stuff too, and engage in dialog that way.
I know you talk about giving smartass answers “oh those are my friend Larry’s earrings!” if she confronts over the evidence, but I can’t think of anything good about the condoms if she confronts, what would you say ? : )Used condoms? I get rid of those before a woman comes over so I never have that problem. Unused condoms, I just tell her that I'm a very safe person, then smile and change the subject.
tom 2016-09-06 22:47:32
Well as I don't yet have tons of women leaving physical evidence around or on my FB, could you give some suggestions on examples how to correctly walk this line verbally? Here are some of the kinds of statements I often make, are these are in the right ballpark or are any of them going too far? "Oh really, you X? How unusual. Pretty much all the girls I know Y." "That's really funny. That reminds me of when I was just with a friend the other night, and she said...." "You like this shirt? Thanks, I went shopping with a friend of mine and she picked it out, I don't trust my stupid male brain to do these things." Basically, I look for opportunities to generally refer to the fact that I have an active social life of female "friends". Are these good? Are there other ways you recommend doing this, if you are short on physical/electronic sources of evidence?
Minister 2016-09-15 07:52:11
Can you tell that a LSNFTE is going on, ONLY if she clearly verbalizes that there is another guy in the picture, who promises her all the disney boyfriendish kind of stuff, or if she goes radio silent/bulks a meet twice, as well?
Blackdragon 2016-09-15 10:52:57
Here are some of the kinds of statements I often make, are these are in the right ballpark or are any of them going too far?They're great.
Can you tell that a LSNFTE is going on, ONLY if she clearly verbalizes that there is another guy in the picture, who promises her all the disney boyfriendish kind of stuff, or if she goes radio silent/bulks a meet twice, as well?During a LSNFTE a woman won't verbalize there's another man. They don't want to "hurt your feelings" so they'll either make up an excuse or go radio silent. You have to either guess or look on her social media after a few weeks. Trust me, if a woman you're with suddenly vanishes on you when everything is going perfectly well, the odds are very high there's another man in the picture.
Minister 2016-09-15 10:57:30
Trust me, if a woman you’re with suddenly vanishes on you when everything is going perfectly well, the odds are very high there’s another man in the picture.So, putting everything together, when something like this happens, you soft next her ass and if she still balks/goes RS, you assume LSNFTE and go No Contact.
Blackdragon 2016-09-15 11:01:50
So, putting everything together, when something like this happens, you soft next her ass and if she still balks/goes RS, you assume LSNFTE and go No Contact.Yes, as I've said only about a thousand times.
Eddie 2017-01-04 02:53:48
I've just finished reading your open relationships book and it's awesome. I have one question though. When you have "the talk", how specific do you get? I mean, do you actually explain to her WHY you are not monogamous at all? Like even a shred of your philosophical reasons behind it? (i.e. greater mental health and happiness for both parties, no drama, etc.) Or is it a flat take it or leave it "I'm not monogamous" and let her just deal with that?
Blackdragon 2017-01-04 12:37:47
do you actually explain to her WHY you are not monogamous at all? Like even a shred of your philosophical reasons behind it?Yes, I do. But I don't give a long 10 minute lecture about it. I simply say that I'm a high sex drive man and I'm incapable of monogamy, just like most men. If she doesn't want that, she's free to dump me and go be with some other guy, who will likely cheat on her behind her back if the relationship lasts long enough. I'd rather have a relationship based in honesty. Women have been cheated on so many times by so many men, it's hard for them to refute this. (They don't like it, but they can't refute it.) Again, it only takes about 20 seconds to say that. Don't get into a big monogamy debate with her. (All she'll do is throw a bunch of false SP at you and get angry.)
Eddie 2017-01-08 05:11:40
Oh, interesting. Hmm actually I'd be perfectly happy with one woman as long as she never got bitchy about sex. (an impossible IF I know) In my case, I'm not against monogamy because I'm not capable of it, I'm against it because of all the drama and suffering that comes with it. And the inevitable dishonesty that I'm on board with since I have found women generally cheat given enough time as well. I do it because I'm convinced that monogamy simply isn't healthy for either party and doesn't create happiness in general. Are comments like these leading into debate territory though?
Joe K 2017-01-08 10:50:15
@BD, Eddie - "I simply say that I’m a high sex drive man and I’m incapable of monogamy, just like most men. If she doesn’t want that, she’s free to dump me and go be with some other guy, who will likely cheat on her behind her back if the relationship lasts long enough. I’d rather have a relationship based in honesty." The thing is, of course - that while this is a great response to keep frame and offer her a realistic perspective - you in fact ARE capable of monogamy, as am I. You did it while married all those years, I did it in a 4 year LTR. When a high SMV man is monogamous for the first 2-3 years of a LTR/marriage, he's acted selflessly. He's sacrificed for the woman. He hasn't gotten everything he'd wanted up to that point. When a high SMV woman is monogamous for the first 2-3 years of a LTR/marriage, she's acted selfishly. She's sacrificed nothing for the man. She's gotten exactly everything she'd wanted up to that point.
Gil Galad 2017-01-08 11:47:03
BD, is there a ballbark number of "total first and second dates per week" that tends to result in a stable 2-3 women rotation, assuming modest level of game ? In rough statistical terms of course. Basically an equivalent to the 200-300 opener blitz, but in number of dates instead of openers.
JB 2017-01-08 13:06:49
@Gil Galad Probably depends on your age / location / relationship skill / frame etc. I am middle-twenties, live in a big city (for my country), have a rock-solid non-mono frame, have very limited online dating experience but very good results, and have very good relationship management skills. I usually land sex on all 2nd or first (rarer) dates using the system, and I have the women in rotation from 3-6 months on average (some more, some less). This means that I actually very rarely have to go on first/second dates unless I need new women in rotation. So for your first time with online dating, expect some dates before it works. I had about 4 first dates that went "nowhere" before I started landing almost every single one of them. After that, if you have a rock-solid frame, enjoy your adoring women for short and long stretches as you see fit 🙂
Blackdragonist since 2016 2017-01-08 13:28:32
Gil Galad: BD says this is the most important metric, and one where the most improvement should be targeted. So it seems it highly depends on one's level of game. This anonymous user has been on 70 first dates in 2016. 20 second dates. 10 women brought to orgasm, 7 of them fucked twice and so "locked in", though only 6 in fact stayed. Subsequently, two moved far away, one seems to have LSNFTEd, one was dumped by me. Thus five relationships that lasted long enough, or one per 14 first dates. On one hand, 1 in 14 doesn't sound like much. On the other hand, confidence that about 20 hours (the equivalent of half a working week) suffices to bring a woman into my life for a meaningful relationship, is empowering.
Gil Galad 2017-01-08 16:45:28
@ JB and "BDist since 2016": thanks a lot for the input.
Blackdragon 2017-01-08 18:49:13
BD, is there a ballbark number of “total first and second dates per week” that tends to result in a stable 2-3 women rotation, assuming modest level of game ? In rough statistical terms of course.I can't give you any figures, since such a thing is 100% reliant on both your real-life game skill and relationship management skills. I get 1-3 new women on rotation for literally every blitz I do. Most blitzes result in 1-5 first dates. But that's me.
RedPillSwinger 2020-04-05 13:02:27
I landed on your site a little too late BD, but thanks a lot for this post. I think your approach is the most market-friendly one, or should I say alpha-friendly? I read a lot about poly and other swingers identify me as such, but I'm utterly unwilling to give it a try, not bloody likely. You're the only one who approaches the management of non-monogamy in a sustainably scalable way. Other schools of thought like "the ethical slut" for example, keep their validity and are perfectly complementary, but anyone who approached non-monogamy so far did it in a woman-friendly way. The odds of it succeeding are abysmal. I've always followed your suggestions instinctively and I should say it's amazing when someone vocalises thinks I can only think. Well done.
RedPillSwingerPL 2020-04-11 02:04:45
Hey BD, I just wanted to add I read all the comments and I share WolfOgGeorgeStreet's views. Believe me, I tried all the tricks in the book AND all the tricks in YOUR books, the manosphere is ever-changing and I have the feeling that we are at the frontier of a new idea but there's still a lot to discover. Despite the experience of THOUSANDS of high-value men nothing is set in stone yet, ironically I became a swinger 6 years prior to discovering the red pill community! Ok, I digress, coming back to OLTRs the problem is: logistics. I can bet my ass that almost ANY random FB/MLTR has CRAP logistics. In the aggregate, not all, but in the aggregate women will always pick crappy places to live when single because, after all, why should they bother if they have pussy and there's an endless stream of thirsty betas looking forward to wife them up? So, once you move in be ready to experience a huge contraction in the stream of pussy. That doesn't mean zero, but a huge drop. I can share my foolish experience with everyone here. I moved to EE (am from SE) and laid 60 in a year and half, kept a steady rotation of 6 women (on average) with different levels of investments and then I upgrade a high-end MLTR to almost OLTR. I was a complete MORON to only take a month to evaluate her "further" after swinging with her ONCE and having had a 9-month MLTR period with her. Result? She reneged on swinging AND she reneged on the agreement we made about having other people at home. As you can see she acted open-minded only to have her sabotage my lifestyle and trap me in a monogamous relationship. Did she succeed? Hell no, kicked her to the curb and downgraded her to FB and now all the FBs/MLTRs are back but this is meaningless. The important thing is the "why". Why? Because a) I was an idiot and b) it doesn't matter how open vs not open a woman is all that matters is how "trapped" she already is and what can she do about it. Facts over ideas. Is she married? Ok she'll put up with you fucking her behind a dumpster. Is she single and fucking 3 guys a night? Not bloody likely that she'd agree with you brining her even to a 5-star hotel. Now, I'm not saying that this invalidates what you're saying, I pretty much think that it is complementary, but have you ever heard the expression "prima donna"? Yes? And how many times have you heard its male equivalent "primo uomo"? Zero, huh? This is because no matter how many guys a single woman is fucking that's "ok because I'm single" but If you do it then you're automatically relegated below the status of a single alpha guy because there's always that 0.0000000001% chance that she can lock him down and you're already locked somehow. Besides, here in the East getting fucked in a hotel triggers an enormous ASD for they're automatically perceived as sluts if they come with you, so you have to rent an apartment for a night. How do you overcome that?