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How To Date Women Over 33 – Part Two
-By Caleb Jones
Today, I’m going to lay out the specific differences in technique that you must employ if you want to (or need to, due to age) take the extra time, trouble and money to date women aged 33 or older.
My first and most important piece of advice is to simply refuse to approach (real life or online) any women over the age of 33, unless you already know them personally in some way. That will save you a huge amount of headache and wasted time. Many years ago, I very reluctantly decided to completely boycott women over 33 from my regular online dating blitzes. Unsurprisingly, as soon as I did this my results skyrocketed, my meet-to-sex times dropped like a stone, my average cost of meet-to-sex also dropped, and my happiness increased. I wish it wasn’t so, since I genuinely like women my age, but that’s how it is.
If you do online dating, set your online dating searches to 18-32 and stick with that. These days, I set my default search to 23-27, and then go to 28-32 if I run out of those. There are isolated, unusual cases where I may message a woman or two over 33 for curiosity or testing reasons, but those are rare.
If you do daygame, if a woman looks like she’s 33 or older (and yes, I realize that’s hard sometimes since those older women often look so hot and/or young), just pass her by and go for someone younger. Those younger women will have sex with you much faster, with less effort, and with less money.
(I don’t do night game, so I can’t speak about that).
When you should go after women over 33 is if you know any women over 33 in your social circle or if you're a young guy in his 20s and look damn good.
If you’re a young, hot dude, older women will put you in a much different category than they will put a guy like me their age, and you can sometimes sex them quickly just as if they were in their 20s.
If you’re a guy of any age and go after a woman over 33 already in your social circle, it short circuits much of her ASD because you’re not a “stranger” taking her out on a “date.” You’re a “friend” and, oops! I just fucked my friend! Tee-hee! It’s easier for her to justify.
Barring that, if you want to (or must) date women over 33 in a normal context (daygame, online dating, or some other usual method), here are the specific techniques you should use:
1. Realize and accept in advance that it’s going to take longer, and adjust your actions and expectations accordingly.
I get a lot of emails from you guys complaining that women over 33 take longer to get to sex, while women under 33 don’t. Many of you guys get really pissed off and/or surprised about this. So, the first technique is the most important one. Realize and understand that for the majority of the time, you’re looking at 6-12 hours of face time before you get to sex, even if you do everything right, including everything in this article (unless your individual situation is unusual).
Accept this going in and don’t get upset, surprised, or beat yourself up when she doesn’t leap to sex at three or four hours like the wonderful women under 33 do. Always set your expectations accordingly.
Under my system of a quick, cheap, one-hour first date, followed by the woman coming to your home for the second “date” and having sex, this means that an over-33 woman is often going to need two or even three of these quick drink dates before she agrees to come over to your place. You may even need to buy a little food for her on one or more of these dates.
You should still attempt to get her over to your place for the second date regardless. The problem is the vast majority of the time an over-33 will balk at this, giving some bullshit ASD excuse about how it’s “too soon”, or it’s “not appropriate”, or how she’s “not comfortable with that yet”, or whatever.
When she does this (and most will), don’t push it. Just cheerfully agree to the second date at another cool bar or restaurant attached to a bar, and proceed as normal.
Be aware that when you pitch coming over to your place for the second date, you may even get a visceral, angry response unlike what you’ve ever seen with women under 33. I’ve had numerous women get upset and even offended with me over texts when I pitch this idea. Don’t let it bother you. Just smile and tell her you two will meet up at X bar instead. Don’t get into a conversation about it and don’t make it into a big deal, or else you’ll never see her again. Remember, you’re dealing with a woman with sky-high ASD, an overly inflated ego about how desirable she is, and mountains of bullshit anti-sex Societal Programming about how “ladies” and/or “gentlemen” behave on “dates.”
2. Dial down the pickup artist techniques.
While there are always rare exceptions to every rule, most PUA routines and other tactical techniques will backfire on women over the age of 33. With a woman who’s 21, you can routine the shit out of her and everything will probably be fine. She may even enjoy it. But, if you try that stuff on a today’s 37 year-old, you’re going to get a sour face at best, some choice words at worst. Often, you’ll lose her completely right then and there.
You still want to maintain the frame and vibe of a confident, outcome independent Alpha Male. Just avoid the PUA techniques as best you can.
Frankly, when you get really good at this stuff, you won’t need PUA techniques at all, for any woman of any age. I consider PUA techniques helpful for guys at the beginner and intermediate levels, but once you’re at the advanced level, techniques won’t be something you need. (I can’t even remember the last time I used an actual pickup “technique” or “routine” in order to have sex with a new woman).
3. Dial down the provider vibe to its lowest possible levels.
This is where it gets complicated, since I just told you to dial down the PUA techniques, and now I’m telling you to dial down the provider vibe as well. (See how much fucking work these over-33s are?)
If your goal is to find a monogamous wife or Disney girlfriend, then I’m not sure why you’re reading this blog, but go right ahead and dial up the provider with these women as much as you like. But, if your goal is to get to sex with minimal time, money, and effort, you cannot look or act like a Poindexter, or else you’ll be pressing down on her Make Him Wait button.
Over-33’s Make Him Wait button is much larger and more pronounced than women younger than her, and it’s much easier to press, even by accident. Therefore, when meeting up with an over-33, do things like:
- Wear a normal T-shirt and jacket (or similar), instead of dressing up like you would with younger women who have less ASD and provider-hunting objectives. Have your hair a little messier than you would normally have it on a date. You get the idea.
- Avoid all conversations about your work or your education. With younger women, this stuff is okay as long as you don’t go overboard. With over-33’s you shouldn’t talk about it at all. If she asks you about it, give her a very general answer and redirect back to her with a question of your own. (Note: This does not apply if you met her through some kind of work or business function).
- If you have kids, avoid conversations about them as well. Again, if she asks about them, give a very general answer and then redirect back to her. As I’ve discussed in my books, if you have kids, talking about how much you love them and spend time with them is actually a DHV that women will like, however for the over-33s, it’s also a provider signal that will press her Make Him Wait button.
By the way, I screwed this up for years before I figured out what was going on. On first or second dates, when I would talk about how much I care about my kids and how much time I spent with them, if the women were in their 20s, they'd get stars in their eyes and I'd get laid fast. But if they were over 33, their pussies would immediately dry up and I was instantly in "good potential boyfriend/husband" category and suddenly locked into the Make Him Wait™ cage. Not good. If she's over 33, shut up about your kids if you have them.
- Dial down the provider vibe in your online dating profile if you’re an online guy.
Doing the above will still take more time to get to sex, but it should take a few hours off of the time you’ll have to wait.
Important: Don’t go overboard with this stuff. You still need to be very polite and non-abrasive with her. Dial down the provider, but don’t go in there acting like Mr. Bash Badass. Again, that will work fine with women under 33, but women over 33 will be offended. Think “Polite Alpha”.
4. Have sex talk as usual, but don’t push it if you get any resistance.
Sex talk is still a critical component and you still need to do it. Normally, if you get resistance you need to gently push until she’s relaxed and talking about it. With over-33s, you can’t do this. If you get any resistance whatsoever, you need to shut up, change the subject, and leave sex talk for another time. If you push it at all, even politely and gently, you’ll never see her again.
For you daygame guys, I also recommend that you don’t talk about sex talk at all during the initial meet. There’s just too much possibility to flair up her gigantic ASD shields. Also remember to keep the sex talk non-directive, which is doubly-important for over-33s. And again, don’t push it.
5. Pre-sex, text her a little more often, but not every day.
This is a weird one that I only uncovered in the last few years. During the time between dates, if Ms. Over 33 doesn’t hear from you at least semi-regularly, she’s often going to assume that you’re a player and you’re having sex with all of the other women on the dating site or at the mall, even if you’re not, and that means you’re OUT. No, it doesn’t make any sense, but that’s how this works.
My usual advice is to not text a woman at all, unless it’s to schedule the next date or a pre-set comfort bombardment move. However, I found that with women over 33, if I don’t text for a few days, then text her to confirm our next date, I would often get a self-righteous text saying something like, “I think you just want me for some kind of friend with benefits and that’s not what I’m looking for, blah blah blah ASD blah blah provider hunter blah blah, I’m brainwashed with Societal Programming blah blah, I’m the most beautiful woman in the world blah blah.”
Again, I have never had this happen with women under 33, but it’s happened with quite a few over-33s.
The magic number that I found to alleviate this was to text an over-33 once every 48 hours during the time between dates. Not every day, just once every other day. Just send her a quick text, have a few back and fourths, and then move on. It’s also important that you end the conversation first, or else she’s going to think you’re too needy. Once again, with these over-33s it’s a constant dance between being more attentive than normal, but not too needy. (Are you getting the idea of why I tend to avoid these women?)
Over-33 Social Circle Game
Since I’ve said that hooking up with over-33 women when you already know them is much easier, I get a lot of questions on exactly how to do it.
I don’t consider myself an expert at social circle game, though I have sex with a lot of women this way (of all ages). The vast majority of the women over the age of 33 I’ve had sex with were via some kind of social circle game or work circle game. Others may be better advisors on this topic, but I can give you a few quick things I’ve learned.
1. Don’t have sex with women you currently work with, but the loophole is the “currently” part.
I’ve gone into detail about that topic here. Don’t ever have sex with any woman you work with, unless you absolutely don’t give a shit about your job. I consider this an unbreakable rule.
However, you can have sex with women you’ve worked with in the past, even the very recent past. I've had sex with women over 33 who I worked with, got their contact info, then stopped working with them for whatever reason (I quit, or they quit, or my project ended, or whatever), then I immediately hit them up for a quickie meet. This is very effective, and I’ve been doing this for a long time, even as a young beta before I got married back in my 20s.
2. There is no “technique” to pitching a date with women you already know. You just do it.
Just tell her, “We should go grab a drink/coffee some time this week. Tuesday’s workable.” Like I said, you just do it. She already knows you, so “technique” is not really needed. Just confidence and outcome independence.
3. Business functions are a great place to meet over-33s.
There are other guys in the PUA community and manosphere who are much better at this than I, but I’ve done this a few times. Business luncheons, networking groups, seminars, workshops, conventions, and similar get-togethers are fantastic places to use some over-33 social circle game. I’ve done this and it works well. I even know two guys who use weekly meeting groups like Toastmasters or Rotary to pretty much run social circle game on over-33s. I consider it too time consuming for my tastes, but these guys do get laid.
4. Remember all the downsides of social circle game and be prepared for it.
Remember that you need to keep sex within your social circle on the down-low if you want it to be successful. ASD spikes into the stratosphere for most women when they hit 33, so most women this age you sleep with won’t want anyone to know what you and her are doing. Also remember that ongoing FB or MLTR relationships with multiple women (of any age) in the same social circle where everyone knows each other are going to be pretty much impossible, unless you enjoy drama. This is why I always keep all of my regular women in completely separate social circles and social strata, so they’re unlikely to run into each other.
That’s it! If you wish to embark on this journey with over-33 women, have at it. If any of you have other techniques that you’ve found reliably work on many over-33s you’ve been with, please share in the comments so we can all learn.
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Gil Galad 2016-03-28 05:47:26
BD, As a 24 year old, I've occasionally hit on older women on online dating sites. At some point I did manage to get a date with one, but the more typical reaction was something like this: not only are they not interested but they take the trouble to send you an "OMG! 24 years ? Are you kidding ?" (if that is of any relevance, I'm in France). I reply "hey, i'm attracted to women of all ages" but at this point I know I'm out. Is this just another aspect of a numbers game (I'm ok with that) or do I need an adjustment ? You recommend having a player vibe and athletic look for younger guys hitting on older women; I'm stockier than average (thanks weight training) with decent looks and use a moderate player vibe. Normally my profile pic just shows my face (I tried the shirtless crap in the past but the feedback wasn't encouraging).
Brian 2016-03-28 06:21:52
Hey Sonny , Maybe I'm wasting MY little bit of time left on this earth even reading your stuff, although I DO find it hugely entertaining. Your "Over 33" articles seem a lot out of place to this geezerish 60 year old oldster, hell I consider myself a success at even bedding, that's a dated term for you, let's just say fucking the brains out of a 53 year old, 7 years my junior Junior. I could ask that you write your stuff more from an older point of view but I understand your target audience are guys who still have wet dreams to go with the wetness behind their ears . Yes you DO have lots of good advice from your relatively narrow based point of view. Should you though consider addressing the REAL issues faced by we Senior Citizens who by the way control the real wealth and are on the truly lucrative end of the market? It might be, from your prospective, just too hard to put yourself in my size 15 LaSportiva Buruntse climbing boots, my Top Siders, the Garneau TriLites I dearly love, or those Scarpa's AT ski boots I could sleep in. Do your research. I doubt you have a clue what sports the aforementioned footwear is even used for, just like it seems, that you don't have a clue regarding conquering ladies of experience , and wealth may I add, that would certainly have a laugh over your attempts to describe them. Yes I have indulged in less than Forty women a few times in the past year, no Viagra needed by the way, I find them at the very least tasty . But who really wants to fuck with those poor waifs when there are soooo many advantages to having the nursing home bound field of women all to myself? That Farmer, Brian
Brian 2016-03-28 06:24:29
That was fun! B
Bulma78 2016-03-28 06:50:53
It may also have never occurred to you guys that a reason us girls over 33 are skeptical about having sex with a new guy quickly is because as soon as we do, he’s sometimes gone after that and we never hear from him again. Maybe not after just once but maybe after having sex a few times and he disappears. I think this is a big reason that we are so reluctant. If this has happened to a girl a few times, you can see why our guard goes up.
MasterD 2016-03-28 07:47:29
I can agree with the 20's range has an "in" vibe these days. Society is keen on cougars and younger men- a payback, if you will, for the older male younger female ways of humanity for centuries. I'm a muscular 28 year old, who handles himself very well in social scenarios of all ages and am probably what bd would call Alpha 1.0. Older women are attracted to me quickly. I think because I'm not socially inept- something they DETEST. Also they like the immediate flirty vibe (but not too strong) of a younger guy recognizing their beauty and not being intimidated. In my experience if I just play it cool for a good few minutes, then escalate accordingly, things go incredibly smooth. I'm pretty aggressive much of the time, so this actual works even better than the younger ones I hit on. Some of the time they (younger girls) get intimidated by my confidence and aggression! I'm in a sweet spot for this but one day I suppose I will have to re-review your tactics once I'm older. ps I just read Brians comment and thats the funniest thing I've read in a while!
Jables 2016-03-28 07:58:58
@Bulma78 What the problem with that attitude is, is that when you women were younger, hooking up a couple of times with a very short meet-to-lay time was just fine. Now, just because you are older, the guy has to kiss your ass and spend countless of hours / dollars on making you feel like a queen before you ever consider sleeping with him. Can you think of a single reason why a man shouldn't just hit up a 20-something instead who will gladly sleep with him quickly? Should he just accept that you want his balls in your purse before you want anything sexual? @Brian I think that if BD wrote from an "older point of view", he would be making stuff up. If you write about anything else than your own experiences and present them as your own, you would be lying.
Kurt 2016-03-28 08:19:14
@Brian: Inane, but, kinda funny. Thanks! I guess...
hey hey 2016-03-28 09:32:09
Bulma yes the guy might disappear. He might not. That's a stupid excuse to use because that's life. Is it better to wait forever to sleep with a guy? Or is it better to sleep with him and see his intentions quickly so that you can move on and be done with? Or is it that sex is so evil? Sex opens up all the possibilities. You know the guy is just for one time so no harm done you cross him out. You know that a guy is needy so you either cross him out or love his attention. You know that a guy is Alpha and territorial and will want to lock you down. And you know that a guy is non monogamous by the way he is treating the relationship. You know just from the few times you have sex with a guy where this is going and you act accordingly. On the other hand you waste your time and the guy's time with eternal dating just to hook up and break up. It is even worse if you end up living with this guy for years only to destroy(because the fun part only lasts a few months/years) both your lives during the relationship and with the break up.
Parade 2016-03-28 10:17:20
While I'm sure you have more experience than me, I've found over 43 to be a completely different category than over 33. Those 10 years make a huge difference in how fast you get to sex, and I've had multiple 2-date lays from the over 43 crowd. I haven't found the "make him wait" stuff to be true at all for them. I don't target them, and usually run into them while out at other events, but maybe there's a second cutoff where she's figured out that "no, I can't actually demand that if I want to have sex..." That, or maybe it's because I'm running into them while doing other things(not online) that's the cause.
Blackdragon 2016-03-28 10:24:44
Is this just another aspect of a numbers game (I’m ok with that) or do I need an adjustment ?You need to crank up the hot-younger-guy thing, particularly in your photos. If you don't have the physique for that, then stick with women your own age.
(I tried the shirtless crap in the past but the feedback wasn’t encouraging)It doesn't matter what the "feedback" is, only if there's an increase in response rates and date rates. I've done many things in my profiles that created some negative feedback from a few prude bitches, but I got laid more so I didn't care.
Should you though consider addressing the REAL issues faced by we Senior Citizens who by the way control the real wealth and are on the truly lucrative end of the market?Haha! As soon as I start regularly fucking women over 60, you'll be the first to know.
It may also have never occurred to you guys that a reason us girls over 33 are skeptical about having sex with a new guy quickly is because as soon as we do, he’s sometimes gone after that and we never hear from him again.This has absolutely nothing to do with women over-33 demanding things like more money spent on them, like dinners and such. The primary reasons for this sexual delay are ASD, SP, and provider hunting. Past experience with men can be a factor too, but a small one compare to those three.
POB 2016-03-28 10:28:17
Be aware that when you pitch coming over to your place for the second date, you may even get a visceral, angry response unlike what you’ve ever seen with women under 33. I’ve had numerous women get upset and even offended with me over texts when I pitch this idea.”So true. You know she's drooling all over you but she just "can't come over" because its too "daring" and "inappropriate" LOL. All the other points are valid, especially the don't do a big deal when she refuses (cause she will). Your best bet is to buy some popcorn, take her out a couple of times and wait till her ASD drops a bit so you two can finally fuck.
Bulma78 2016-03-28 11:10:16
Jables, Hey Hey & BD, I can see your point; I guess there are two sides. I mean, yah, I can either be too cautious and miss out or just go ahead, live life and make some memories. For me, wanting to wait a bit wouldn’t be so that I can accumulate more money spent on me via dates/dinners or anything like that. (I’ve always felt when you go on dates it’s fair to always take turns paying). I do enjoy the quality time spent though! It is very nice. Wanting to wait a bit doesn't come from some evil, sinister place in my heart.
Bulma78 2016-03-28 11:28:58
........Thinking more about it now, part of the waiting that happens isn’t always intentional. For example, the guy I’m seeing now, when we first started hanging out, well to start, we had like 5 dates in public places, then I was wondering if he’d invite me over his place or something next? But he never did, so I think we went on two more dates in public and I thought to myself, “we need to speed this along a little bit now!” So I remember we were texting one night and got on the subject of action sports and I said well I’ve got some skiing/snowmobile/dirt bike dvds, so you should come over one night and we can watch them and drink a little! So he was like that’s great! So finally we got to be alone and everything was good from there. Then he later told me he had been waiting for me to invite him over all along! And I said well I was waiting for you to invite me over! And he explained that his place isn’t the nicest place to want to have guests at and that’s why he never asked. So, yah sometimes it just happens.
hey hey 2016-03-28 11:42:22
Yes but dating is all about attraction. You just go with low defenses(if you can control that!). If in that state the guy does not attract you or he is shy and scared to move things forward in his 2nd/3rd date then he is out. If he does, its sex time and THEN quality time. If he is just in it for the one time then simply there is no quality time and you move on. Why waste your time and this guys time on dating(which is mostly all faked out and BS)? You should have known by now that the longer the dating phase goes the more the BS you are getting from a guy, not quality time.
Jensen 2016-03-28 12:27:42
Thanks BD this is much appreciated. Now as a 44 year old man who has just been back in the game for a couple of weeks, i will share my limited experience with the 33+ crowd with you. My background is that i live in the one of the most feminist countries in the world (Denmark) and my area only has about 500.000 residents within reasonable driving range, so i open attractive women from mid 20's to my own age. So far this has resulted in 3 dates ages 33, 37 and 38 all from Tinder. I got catfished with 37 year old and didn't pursue further dates with her. The other 2 i had more luck with 🙂 Now keep in mind the very small sample size, but this has worked so far First date coffee or similar date usual BD recommended stuff except with kino and sex talk dialed back. Second date a bit longer ~2 hours ramping up kino and sex talk. This must be at a different venue than the first date. Third date i cook them dinner at my place and slowly escalate. Both times it has taken 3+ hours getting them to bed. All credits and a big thank you for the above goes to Blackdragon and Pureevil from sedfast. Now for the more problematic part. The 38 year actually told me the her Disney fantasies about when we were married and had kids, the morning after we had sex. I have to say i handled that part clumsily and i will never see her again. The 33 year old definitely also see me as her new boyfriend and we have been together a few times, I like her a lot, but i am not quite ready to jump into the monogamous prison again, so i am still trying to figure out what to do. (BD may just make another sale of his relations ship book) Like BD said in #3 I most likely have too much provider vibe and will have to try to tone it down for future dates. I am also an ENTJ, so although i toned it way down after reading this blog, i may still be talking too much.
Blackdragon 2016-03-28 13:26:20
I’ve had multiple 2-date lays from the over 43 crowd. I haven’t found the “make him wait” stuff to be true at all for them.because...
maybe it’s because I’m running into them while doing other things(not online) that’s the cause.That's probably it, since you're simulating a social circle environment this way, rather than meeting for a "date" which is what daygame (day2s) and online dating are usually about. I have the exact same problem with women over 40 as women over 33. As a matter of fact, it's often worse. (However, these are over 40 women who are still trim, fit, and hot. It may be different with the fatter/uglier ones.) As I've written about before, I do agree that once a woman climbs into age 50 or near it, then she calms down about all this crap. But not until then.
Wanting to wait a bit doesn’t come from some evil, sinister place in my heart.I've never said it does. Women are not evil, they're just women. It's the same with friend zone. Friend zone is horribly abusive to men, but women don't do it because they're evil, they do it because they're women, and because men let them get away with it. I don't care why you're abusing me. If it comes from a place of love or hated, it's still unfair, and I still want nothing to do with it.
2ravens 2016-03-28 14:51:51
I've had the opposite experience also. Women over-40 easily had sex on the second date. I've dated about 50 women now in 3 years and almost exclusively from online. What makes it stranger is I follow your e-books and their advice almost to the letter. No first date kissing, sexualizing the conversation, touching and mostly coffee dates the first time. However, I text profusely between 1st and 2nd dates and I try to put the 2 dates as close together as possible. My ideal is a wed/thur coffee date followed by a second date the same weekend. I keep waiting (and expecting) this to change but so far it hasn't. My second dates are always at my house. I found an article years ago titled something like Guaranteed 2nd Date Bang or something equally ridiculous but it seems to work flawlessly. One thing I have noticed is the absolute awkwardness and social ineptness from the previous guys that these women have dated. By the time they meet someone like me who is socially adept and genuinely comfortable being sexual and not creepy they seem a little desperate. That being said, as always thank god I found your stuff before I started dating again after my divorce. 2ravens
skills 2016-03-28 14:56:48
Nightgamer over 33, one of my current fuck buddies 46... These women are looking for the perfect dude that can provide for them and take care of them extremely delusional... But, if you come across as THE LOVER type, they will either fuck you fast (which is most of the time) or pass on you... Sometimes they will shit test for provider shit (ignore or play stupid).... Other times they are married or in a dead marriage or recently divorce (mini cock carousel stage) Again, i am tired of disagreeing on bd on this, but for me this women are easier, cause if they want to fuck you they will fuck you fast.... Talking night game...
Eur Eye 2016-03-28 15:13:58
Just out of curiosit, how did you get to exactly 33? Why not 30 (would be my gut feeling, or even 28) or 35? Just would like to know whether it came out of statistics or some kind of psychological theoretca frame.
Duke 2016-03-28 15:19:00
Curious as to the difference between under and over 33's when it comes to LSNFTE ie. which one does it quicker? I'm sure you have data on this since you are organized about this stuff. Also, re: texting every other day. What if they try and text you everyday? Do you just respond until the next day or next them for being to clingy?
Minister 2016-03-28 15:33:03
I keep experiencing the exact same things you mention from ALL ages. So I don't really get your obsession with the over-33 crowd. But maybe it is just my country, who knows.
Blackdragon 2016-03-28 16:21:17
Just out of curiosit, how did you get to exactly 33? Why not 30 (would be my gut feeling, or even 28) or 35?Nothing 100% scientific, just lots and lots of anecdotal though empirical data. I track everything on spreadsheets, and years ago when reviewing my data I found there was a definite cutoff at exactly age 33. It was definitely not 30, since I've had fast sex with lots of women who were 30, 31, and some 32s without any problem. But as soon as the ages hit 33, there were almost always problems. I had several other guys start tracking their own stuff to see if it was just me, and most of them found that 33 (or very close to it) was their cutoff too. They were just as surprised as I was. If you watch celebrity couples and pay attention to their ages, you also see the number 33 with women coming up over and over again. Good example is here. I'm no scientist, but I'm 99% convinced that there is something biological that clicks in a woman at around age 33 which also happens to be exacerbated by Societal Programming. I could be wrong but I have so much evidence before me that I don't think I am.
Curious as to the difference between under and over 33’s when it comes to LSNFTE ie. which one does it quicker?There is usually no difference. My experience is that it's a little harder to get over-33s into a nonmonogamous relationship, but once they get there, they're more at peace with it than most younger women. (Much less petty drama.)
What if they try and text you everyday? Do you just respond until the next day or next them for being to clingy?If it's before we've had sex twice, I respond and be nice. If it's after sex twice, then you're in relationship management mode instead of seduction mode, and other those conditions I slowly stop responding to her daily until she gets the message. I do not next women for texting me too often; not a nextable offense in my opinion.
I keep experiencing the exact same things you mention from ALL ages.As I've said before, your country must be completely fucked. If I lived somewhere where 21 year-olds were acting like over-33 provider hunters, I'd move the fuck out of there so fast it would make your head spin.
Gil Galad 2016-03-28 18:36:24
I too think there could be something biological to the 33-year cutoff mark. Natural selection has a way of optimizing human/animal behavior for different ages. The hypothesis that comes to my mind right now is that back in prehistory, couples were mostly about making babies; past a certain age, women had a higher risk of bad pregnancy, and a more demanding /provider hunting behavior would work to counterbalance this risk by snagging a "good" (read: submissive beta) companion, even if she might also fuck an alpha on the side. The risk of a less genetically lucky baby is canceled out by the woman being more picky about the father
. So even if it seems more logical to lower your standards as age lowers you SMV, biology isn't having any of it and still selects for picky behavior. I bet that this hypothesis is testable, if the stats on pregnancy risks show that those have a relatively sharp increase starting in the early to mid thirties. Plus, BD says that women start to "calm down" around 50, which may be explained by the drop in SMV but could also fit into this theory: 50 means you're no longer in the "risky pregnancy zone", you're in the no-pregnancies-at-all zone, so the selection pressure on being super picky disappears.
Marsupial 2016-03-28 18:58:58
PUA stuff won't fly because they read about it on their websites. If you run a routine off getlaidnow.com, she'll know it. See this XKCD comic. Ok - not exactly a chick website, but PUA stuff just isn't a super secret anymore. On a different note, this post shed some light on the over-30's "why can't I find a man"? It's because they are so bloody difficult. Which, in an age where a woman married at 19 and stayed married for life ,was a good thing. That is: alongside the instinct to sample the buffet, perhaps there's also one to acquire a partner and stick with him that becomes more pronounced as a woman ages - around the age when her kids would normally be in the process of becoming adults and need the launching that only a male can give. The difficulty with the 33s is you are running against that instinct.
Blackdragon 2016-03-28 22:53:11
PUA stuff won’t fly because they read about it on their websites. If you run a routine off getlaidnow.com, she’ll know it.That has nothing to do with it. Women under 33 are just as aware of this stuff, yet they have no problem with the techniques. It's not like a woman turns 33 and suddenly starts reading pickup sites. It's an issue of ASD, not PUA knowledge.
On a different note, this post shed some light on the over-30’s “why can’t I find a man”? It’s because they are so bloody difficult.Yes, to a large degree that's true. A sizable percentage of women over 33 have created their own problem. They've become so difficult and/or they've raised their standards so impossibly high that they can't find anyone. As I've mentioned recently, I have the same problem (in terms of my standards getting higher as I age) but the difference is I don't need to find anyone. If I just play with MLTRs and FBs for the rest of my life that's perfectly fine with me. The problem is these women can't find Mr. Perfect and they desperately want him. I honestly feel sorry for these women. I really do. If they just relaxed a little they could solve all of their problems, but they don't want to. Okay, Sweetie, good luck with that.
Parade 2016-03-28 23:45:07
That’s probably it, since you’re simulating a social circle environment this way, rather than meeting for a “date” which is what daygame (day2s) and online dating are usually about.Maybe so. I typically do the following: Meet them at <thing>, chat a bit, invite to 2nd <thing> another day (either by txt or in person that night). After 2nd thing, invite them over that night, or another day depending on how it went.
joelsuf 2016-03-29 12:02:41
Could it possibly be that location has something to do with this? I feel like as long as you don't push her make him wait button or whatever, a chick over 33 will let you hit it. That's my experience anyways. I dunno, maybe I fall into that category of good looking young guy. I'm 33 myself, but nearly everyone I encounter say that I look 5-10 years younger. I WILL agree that 33+s will screen you hard and I usually just drop them like a bad habit if they start talking about having kids (or more kids) and shit like that. There are too many horny chicks running around for me to even stick around for that, and I don't even get my name out too much! lol
J71 2016-03-29 12:57:10
I am 44 year old man that only got back into dating about 3 weeks ago. Since then I have been on 4 Tinder dates with women in the age range 33-38. I did end up having sex with 2 of these later. This is the template that i used for both my lays: First date is the standard BD style date at a coffee shop or similar. Only exception is kino and sex talk dialed way down. Second date is for drinks and last a bit longer about 2 hours and i increase the kino and sex talk, but not to full blast. I try to have the date at a new location and preferably close to my place, so logistics would be good, if she should be in the mood. Third date i invite her over to my place for dinner and slowly escalate on her. For both my lays this has taken 3+ hours. So total face time in both cases 6-7 hours pretty much as BD expected. A more skilled guy could probably reduce the time needed on the third date though. Cost about 40-50$ for the first couple of dates and add to that the price of the home-cooked dinner so not exactly cheap either Both girls also immediately tried to lock me in as their boyfriend, so i most likely still give of too much of a provider vibe. I definitely violated a few points on your #3 though, i didnt dodge their questions about what i do very well, so i likely said too much. I also overdressed, one of them actually told me that <<High end brand>> shirt looks good on you, how the hell do they know that shit.
Blackdragon 2016-03-29 15:06:52
Maybe so. I typically do the following: Meet them at <thing>, chat a bit, invite to 2nd <thing> another day (either by txt or in person that night). After 2nd thing, invite them over that night, or another day depending on how it went.Well, then you're proving my point. If you add up all that time, you're waiting 6-12 hours before you're having sex with them.
Could it possibly be that location has something to do with this?Of course. Country and culture are always a factor. Look at the comment above from the guy living in Greece, for example.
I feel like as long as you don’t push her make him wait button or whatever, a chick over 33 will let you hit it.It's not an issue of whether you'll have sex with them. It's about how long it takes. I could go have sex with 100 over-33s over the next few months if I wanted to take the extra time involved. I don't want to take that time, because under-33s only take about 3 hours, often less. Time management.
So total face time in both cases 6-7 hours pretty much as BD expected. A more skilled guy could probably reduce the time needed on the third date though.No. That's the common theory, but the theory is wrong. A more skilled guy (who is your age) isn't going to regularly and repeatedly score with these women under 6 hours, no matter what he does. (Yes, there will be odd exceptions here and there.) It's just like with long-term monogamy. If someone out there discovered a repeatable and reliable technique for men over 35 to score with women over 33 within 3 hours, he'd publish that book and become a millionaire overnight. But there is no technique that does this, thus the lack of this information. Bottom line: if you want to fuck women this age, you're going to have to wait 6-12 hours to do it, period (if we're talking daygame or online dating that is).
Duke 2016-03-29 15:41:04
One of the commenters brought up something I was wondering about: Do you have a set number of days between date one and two? I'm guessing you have to strike while the iron is hot and thus a couple of days would be optimal; a week and she might lose interest and or meet another guy. On the other hand she will have all that sexual tension wondering if you are into her or not, assuming the no kiss rule was followed.
Parade 2016-03-29 22:13:13
Maybe so. I typically do the following: Meet them at <thing>, chat a bit, invite to 2nd <thing> another day (either by txt or in person that night). After 2nd thing, invite them over that night, or another day depending on how it went. Well, then you’re proving my point. If you add up all that time, you’re waiting 6-12 hours before you’re having sex with them.Not at all. Meet at <thing> is 10-20 minutes, enough to chat a bit but that's about all. Thing2 is 2-3 hours at most, and I always invite them over after thing 2 (either that night or a different night)
Blackdragon 2016-03-29 22:54:23
Not at all. Meet at <thing> is 10-20 minutes, enough to chat a bit but that’s about all. Thing2 is 2-3 hours at most, and I always invite them over after thing 2 (either that night or a different night)Interesting. How long does it usually take on the third visit (after thing 2) for you to start having sex? And how many women over 43 have you actually had sex with within this 2-4 hour time frame? And are these business functions, like I talked about in the article?
Do you have a set number of days between date one and two?As you surmised, it's as soon as possible. The very next day is ideal. Don't wait! Every day that goes by between date 1 and date 2 further reduces the odds of sex.
Parade 2016-03-29 23:20:02
And are these business functions, like I talked about in the article?These are not business functions. These are events that are typically sexually charged and happen at night but not night game / clubs (drinking is usually off limits, for example). At one event the vast majority of people I run into are poly in the "I have a bunch of rules to follow and drama" way. It's rare to run into someone who is mono there, though it's not rare to run into someone who is poly until they find their next mono relationship. The other event type is social dancing, which has its own set of rules. I've been dancing for quite a few years now so, while there are better dancers than me out there, I'm generally in the top few on any given night. I'm usually fairly sexual/sensual when I dance with someone, and I follow up with any woman who seems to have chemistry when I'm dancing with her.
Bulma78 2016-03-30 06:05:03
Since then I have been on 4 Tinder dates with women in the age range 33-38. I did end up having sex with 2 of these later.
Both girls also immediately tried to lock me in as their boyfriend, so i most likely still give of too much of a provider vibe.Of course they did! Provider vibe?......can't rule that out of course, but I really think that the fear of having a guy disappear after having sex the first time is what causes girls to want to lock you in or at the very least know what your intentions are. If we did it once with you, we most likely want to keep seeing you and sleeping with you, so it’s a way to ensure that. And I’ll add that I bet most girls get super mushy, puppy love feelings for a guy once they sleep with him and even beforehand as well; another reason to want to lock you in for keeps!
Cheesetrader 2016-03-30 14:50:16
One particular case missing from an otherwise excellent post - 33+ yos who are separated or newly divorced. Very high % of the time they're very fast to bed - and gladly so. Just watch out for clingers and be willing to be empathetic while also laying out firm ground rules. More generally - sex talk. Let them initiate - and/or approach softly. If they respond, then you can ramp it up - but let her signal she's okay with it first - once she does, then you're good to go. The 33+ crowd can be a load of fun....and they're dirty once they let down their shields. From a 50 something who mines these fields of gold.
Jack Outside the Box 2016-03-31 17:34:36
Yo BD! It's Thursday! That means it's feeding time! Are you okay? If you were killed by a jealous husband I'm going to be super pissed at him and will even call him vulgar names! No but seriously though, are you alright man?
Duke 2016-03-31 17:40:09
JOTB, if you're bored, doclove responded to you in The Deal With the Manosphere comment section. Same shit different day. Now he is calling you're system Corporatist-Socialist and explains how that system will lead to a Mad Max society!
Jack Outside the Box 2016-03-31 17:54:28
Yes, I will be responding to him soon. Right now though, I just hope BD didn't overdose on his testosterone replacement therapy or have an allergic reaction to his invisalign.
joelsuf 2016-03-31 22:11:35
Alright, now I am convinced that my location has reversed this. I live at a college town (North Central Florida) and the way the women act here is the diametric opposite. Young chicks have almost the exact same personality traits as the 33+s you are talking about and chicks over 25 have the same personality traits as those who are younger according to your description. I just had a first date with a 33+ and we were talking about S&M for chrissakes! I told her I owned a kilt and her eyes lit up, like I could actually see glitter in her eyeballs. I would NEVER get this type of reaction from a chick under 25 here. Where I'm at, Chicks under we'll say, 25 or so hold their sexuality in a VERY high regard, which is nothing but not bolstered by beta after omega who cater to everything they do and worship them like goddesses. So business as usual there, but the 33+s here do not tolerate such white knighting. But the college chicks echo man hating feminists just with their tone of voice usually. Meanwhile, chicks over 25, or even townies who aren't in college are southern submissive or even independent chicks who freely talk about sex all the time and as long as you aren't a try-hard or creepy you are in. I'll more than likely be hitting it when I see this chick again. Nearly all of my first dates with 33+s out here have involved sex (or at least it was promised afterwards). These chicks are slightly below average in attractiveness, since that's my target audience or whatever you call it. Maybe that has something to do with it. Are big chicks just horny and don't care? What gives? From what I've seen, college chicks let social programming or social conditioning or whatever you call it run their lives. While these southern 33+s are horny af. At least here that's how it is. Thoughts?
joelsuf 2016-03-31 22:15:14
Just watch out for clingers and be willing to be empathetic while also laying out firm ground rules.I avoided a bullet in the form of that last week. She was talking about kids and shit on the first date and I'm like "yeah we're done." She was deceptively horny in our text conversations leading to it too, texting me naughty pics etc. What a let down.
Lyric 2016-04-01 00:14:24
What are your reviews or strip clubs massage parlors and escorts for very unattractive men.. I am 21 Close to having with my ba . Will finish my masters in 3 years . Currently working a min wage job and i spend 400 a month on strip clibs escorts n massage parlors... Its my only option in getting laid. What are your views on this . I know i Should i be saving my resources but i think im a addict. . What are your views on strip clubs escorts n massage parlor ( pretend you were unattractive) in three years ill have my masters my nea career will give me enough status to bag some good looking women. But am i making a extremely poor decision as of now? That 400 a month i waste for a few hrs of pleasure could use for food or gas. Why are you againt this if so? Should men never give their resources directly to women for sex.
J71 2016-04-01 04:21:19
I avoided a bullet in the form of that last week. She was talking about kids and shit on the first dateI got exactly the same from a 38 year old recently, except it was after i slept with her. The very next day, she started talking about how she wanted kids and a husband before she were 40. She quickly realized, that i wasn't going to comply with her dreams so she got rather upset, bitchy and of course dumped me. If this was so important for her, she could easily have screened me out during the dates, but she didn't screen at all so i got rather surprised by this. I guess she was either horny or maybe she thought that access to her magical vagina would compel me to follow her desires. Who knows ...
Blackdragon 2016-04-01 11:59:01
I got exactly the same from a 38 year old recently, except it was after i slept with her. The very next day, she started talking about how she wanted kids and a husband before she were 40. She quickly realized, that i wasn’t going to comply with her dreams so she got rather upset, bitchy and of course dumped me. If this was so important for her, she could easily have screened me out during the dates, but she didn’t screen at all so i got rather surprised by this.Yep. Provider hunter. They usually don't announce themselves; they just drop it on your head when you're least expecting it (and way too soon). To be fair, not all women over 33 are provider hunters like this, but as you cross over into age 33 and above the percentage of these women shoots way up. I'm sure there's a way to put in massive numbers of over-33 women and screen hard for non-provider-hunters, but then we're back to my original argument of "Why take all that time when you don't have to do this for women under 33?"
joelsuf 2016-04-01 18:47:10
What are your reviews or strip clubs massage parlors and escorts for very unattractive men.. I am 21 Close to having with my ba . Will finish my masters in 3 years . Currently working a min wage job and i spend 400 a month on strip clibs escorts n massage parlors… Its my only option in getting laid. What are your views on this . I know i Should i be saving my resources but i think im a addict.Am I reading this right? $400 a month on chicks who literally just jerk you off? How do you afford that with your job? I don't even spend that much on bowling stuff, and I'm obsessed with the sport. In all probability, I'm less attractive than you and I spend MAYBE $40 A YEAR on strip clubs, and that's only when I visit South Florida just cuz I don't have strip clubs where I stay at. And I can pretty much get laid whenever I want, all I have to do is just spam message a few chicks online, get a couple of dates, and my dick gets wet. Takes MAYBE a half hour a week. The chicks aren't attractive by any means, but neither am I and I'm satisfied either way. Why are you even in school if you are stupid enough to waste money on sex workers? Are you disabled? Disfigured? Stop going to strip clubs NAO. And unless you are playing a sport in college and intend to play said sport professionally, or know that your college classes are going to lead to a better paying job, drop the hell out. Read BD's posts on game and stuff. Read Strength By Sonny as well. I may have just saved your life, you're welcome.
Kryptokate 2016-04-01 20:19:56
@ joelsurf I think the situation is reversed in more conservative places where people marry early. BD is in Portland which is one of the most liberal cities in America. No one even gets married in Portland til they're 30+ there, so a 33+ year old woman there is likely getting anxious and ready to settle down and get serious, whereas girls in their 20s are solidly in exploration mode. It's not like that in more conservative areas like where I live. Most people here get married in their early or mid 20s. There are literally no women who are 33+ who have never been married, all single people in their 30s here are divorced (and naturally there is a very high divorce rate since people marry so young). And that is a completely different game. Divorced 30 and 40 somethings are way, way, way sluttier/freer than the early 20s girls who are all trying to get married. So what he describes is pretty much reversed where I live, and I think the south is similar. I didn't grow up in this area, but all my female friends here are in their 30s and divorced and they were all monogamous and married in their 20s. They are pretty wild now and definitely sleep with guys on the first date (or non-date, just some dude they met at a party or in a bar) pretty regularly. What he's describing is how women who are looking to get marry act, I don't think it has much to do with biological age so much as age when a woman is expected to get married in a particular culture.
Lyric 2016-04-02 00:58:36
1) Theres no way your less attractive than me. 2) thats what i needed to hear that ive been making stupid decisions 3), im sure my schooling is going to lead to a decent career. No need to a drop out 4) i can afford to becauce i received scholarship $, that pays for my schooling .5) i live with my uncle rent free. My checks from work i use part of it for gas but i have a lot left out i should be saving . I think i just have a sex addiction or we can just say sex is my most favorite hobby 6) ugly chicks dont satisfy me so i spend on good looking girls. 7) thanks for the help 8)
Doubter 2016-04-03 20:28:13
I don't know guys.....I get laid by 33+ women all the time. And usually pull them via online dating. Here's what I have found: - very little provider vibe. Subtly communicate that you have your shit together, are fit and go from there. But use innuendo and sexualize. - don't let them put you in the provider box. Screen hard for provider seekers. - yes girls are great, no girls are fine. Make her make a decision. - lots of texting to build rapport before you meet. But keep frame, she needs to know the deal.....it's about fun and sex. - it's a numbers game. But if you have a rotation then you don't need a ton of hits. - kino, tease and sexualize when you do meet. I've only had one first date in two years that didn't lead to sex. On the first date. They want to think they can convert you into a LTR. The strategy goes back to the 80/20 player/provider concept.
Blackdragon 2016-04-03 21:06:47
What he’s describing is how women who are looking to get marry act, I don’t think it has much to do with biological age so much as age when a woman is expected to get married in a particular culture.No. As I've mentioned before, this ASD over 33 thing has nothing to do (or very little to do) with provider hunter status. I've had plenty of over 33 women give me this ASD shit on 1st, 2nd, and/or 3rd dates who had no interest in getting married or having kids whatsoever. Single women, divorced women, women with kids, women with no kids, you name it, there is no correlation I have seen, other than age. For your theory to be correct, 100% of the women I (and over men) have encountered over 33 who didn't put out in 3-4 hours of face time must have been provider hunters looking husbands (or very serious boyfriends). I can tell you for a fact this isn't anywhere near true. I have also fucked a small number of over-33s within 3-4 hours of face time via online who clearly WERE provider hunters, so again this proves your theory incorrect.
I’ve only had one first date in two years that didn’t lead to sex. On the first date.With all due respect, I smell bullshit. Even master PUAs don't get results like this, with women of any age, much less over 33s. (Unless you've had very few first dates in the last two years, that is. Then I agree it's possible.)
Doubte 2016-04-05 19:37:03
Call BS all you want guy......I've no reason to lie. Probably 20 dates over the last two years. The key is screening. And demonstrating more player than provider.
Blackdragon 2016-04-05 20:41:12
Out of the last 20 first dates from complete strangers online you fucked 18 of them on the first date and many of them were over 33? Then yes, I call BS. That, or your situation is unusual for some other reason you haven't mentioned yet (you're paying them, or you're ridiculous good looking, or you're lying to them / tricking them somehow, or you're locally famous / massive social proof, or you're spending hours talking to them before the first date, or your memory is way off and it's actually way less than 20 dates, or something else unusual). If it's literally 20 dates and you're doing standard stuff (lots of guys screen for DTF chicks), then I don't buy it. I absolutely believe you get laid. I don't believe in the 18/20 first-date lay ratio. I've literally never seen anyone pull that off (without something unusual like the above items I listed).
Doubter 2016-04-09 06:14:50
Lol.....Another first date lay last night. And one planned for this afternoon. But both of those under 30 so maybe don't apply. Fact is....if you go on a date w me......almost certainly we are going to fuck. Most of these are even coming directly to my place. Further....these are nice girls, with partner counts that are very low. I definitely spend more time texting to develop rapport and sexuality. If you're going in mostly cold for a coffee, then the first date lay would be much less certain, and them coming directly to your house is likely out of the question. But I'm busy, and have a young daughter, so I don't want to meet if sex is not on the table. Either way you are putting in the time, I guess. And since you are targeting younger women than me, then maybe the sexualizing and texting would work against you (??). Thinking back, I think I've been on dates with 2 women in the last 2.5 years that I didn't fuck at some point........maybe 30 women, if I had to guess. Overwhelming majority on the first date. And for the record....5'8", 47 yo. But successful and charming.
Doubter 2016-04-09 06:24:14
Like I said upthread though, it's about screening, especially with the over 33 crowd. Smartass, strong playboy vibe and unwillingness to be "Relationshipy" are absolutely key. And don't spend time dealing with women that aren't down with the program. Fact is....all women have sexual needs, but that age group will prioritize the relationship needs if you allow them. But if they find you attractive enough and you are unwavering in your playerness, they might well decide to fuck you. Your job is to make them not be able to live without you, but the only role they get you in is as a sexual partner. So....my hit count is pretty low, but when they reply, it's usually good to go, the preselling is already done. BD, you screen for sex too, but at a different point in the process. Short answer is I build attraction before the meet, you do it during the meet. Anyway......this is good stuff....and fascinating how human nature is so predictable (and actionable). Keep up the great work here.......you're doing gods work my man.
workgamer 2016-06-01 13:44:17
it's funny, in my experience i actually had my easiest lays form over 33 online girls, usually went straight to their home without a date, getting naked in under 4 mins of arriving...and i'm not typically good looking. do you really believe you shouldn't screw coworkers? as a freelance i feel obligated to give it to any client that's signals, it's perseverance. i think i lost some jobs with trying to withhold it.
Blackdragon 2016-06-01 18:26:45
do you really believe you shouldn’t screw coworkers? as a freelance i feel obligated to give it to any client that’s signals, it’s perseverance.Freelancers are different. If you're freelance and you know you'll be out of the job within a week or two, then go ahead. But if you're going to be working with someone over the long-term, then no.
Kevlar Waterfall 2016-06-19 15:43:44
@joelsuf I've also lived in Gainesville FL, and the UF girls are not like what you describe at all. Online dating there is also amazing, if you're using Friendsy(which is basically popular only with UF and FS students). I have basically no experience with older women, so I can't comment on that. But the college girls are pretty sexual around here. It's one of the only frat-heavy schools I've even been to where the sorority girls will actually bang and even date guys outside the Greek system.